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EP 62 - Consider Railroading with Andrew Stahl
31 Plays3 months ago
My guest today is Andrew Stahl, who founded his Executive Recruiting firm in 2014. This year, his firm celebrates ten years of service to the global rail industry. I’m proud to have been counted among their many clients, having their help to land a previous, but wonderful position at a firm that fit my skills, personality, and career aspirations at the time.
Andrew and I have a two-part conversation. This episode introduces the ins & outs of working with a recruiting firm. We learn about the important role they play in railroading and other industries. We’ll take into account the perspectives of candidate, recruiter, and employer.
Then in Episode 62, we explore the amazing industry of railroading and public transit where we’ve both enjoyed rewarding careers.
Visit: stahlrecruiting.com
For more info & to download a free PDF of today's episode notes, visit: www.chriskreuter.com/CDWI
Join the Kreuter Studios mailing list: https://mailchi.mp/810367311f3d/ksb
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Transcript
00:00:08
Speaker
On Chris deals with it, I talk about the frameworks and methods I use to clear personal, creative, and professional roadblocks. My goal is to help others bridge the gap between where they're at now and what they want to achieve. If you're new to the show, I'm an engineer, writer, parent, game designer, leader, and reader who leverages that experience to develop creative solutions to problems. An AI statement that all elements of this episode are products of the author, Chris Croyder, and made without the use of any AI tools. Welcome to episode 62 of Chris deals with it. Consider railroading. My guest today is Andrew Stahl, who founded his executive recruiting firm in 2014. This year, his firm celebrates 10 years of service to the global rail industry. I'm proud to have been counted among their many clients, having their help to land a previous but wonderful position at a firm that fit my skills, personality and career aspirations at the time.
00:01:02
Speaker
Andrew and I have a two-part conversation. On episode 61, we started with an introduction to the world of recruiters. Today, we're exploring the amazing industry of railroading and public transit where we've both enjoyed rewarding careers. We're going to cover the wide range of disciplines and needs at Class 1, and short-line freight railroads, transit authorities, equipment manufacturers, and support firms. Our industry is in dire need of talent, so we're providing practical information for anyone considering a pivot to a new industry, as well as those who might just be entering the workforce. For more information about Andrew Stahl and his recruiting firm, check out their website at stahlrecruiting.com. That's s-t-a-h-l recruiting dot.com. And also check out the free episode notes at chriscroiter.com. That's c-h-r-i-s-k-r-e-u-t-e-r dot.com.
00:01:55
Speaker
All right, let's get into our interview with Andrew Stahl. We want to talk about the railroad industry industry specifically. um I think last time I checked the number of companies are looking for good people industry is all um especially, you know, now nowadays, I'm more on the public transit side, where more so than the freight railroad. I know you, you know, you really focus in on the railroading portion of it. um There's are there are other forms of transportation where there's there's tangential relationships that might be applicable, because you don't just deal with the class one railroads. yeah you taught you You work with vendors. um You'll work with some public transit authorities, I believe. bull say I look at it as like a Venn diagram. Always rail specific as opposed to safe buses, if you will. yeah But when you divide it between the freight side, the class ones, and the short lines, if you will, and you look at the transit arena, the the Amtrak's of the world, the Farts, the Lamada's, and the Long Island railroads, we work with both sides. um And we work with a lot of suppliers.
00:02:50
Speaker
that funnel componentry to both sides. Yeah, which is a wide swath of industry to cover. i mean The railroad industry, and and you you provided some statistics here, mean there's over 1.2 million jobs just in the US alone. and There are class ones that operate in Canada and Mexico as well, so you we're not excluding them from the conversation. But you're talking about an industry that spends around $250 billion dollars a year in infrastructure and equipment alone. um So may you want to talk a bit about just the scope of the railroad industry and and the types of jobs that are out there. Sure, sure, sure. It's a huge industry. Going back to your statistics, I think it's 1.2 million labor force in the rail industry. And I think the $250 billion was over the last 10 years, if I'm correct, late from the AAR on infrastructure. But that's a lot of money.
00:03:38
Speaker
thats And I think they also attribute 18% of capital expenditures or revenues to capital expenditures from the railways versus general manufacturing, which I think is about 3%. But to address your your point, it's a wonderful industry to be part of. And you think of the class ones, the Norfolk Southerns, Union Pacifics of the world, if you will. 85% of those folks that work for them are unionized. Unions generally pay good wages. um Again, using the AAR numbers, I believe it's 143,000 is the average salary. And that's that's pretty that's pretty nice salary ah for being out in the field, for sure. And the industry as a whole offers many, many opportunities. you we're We're embedded deeply with the Texas Shortline Association. And I know from those guys and just the Shortline Association in general, there's like 603 shortlines out there.
00:04:30
Speaker
So there's a multitude of railways and class ones that you could work for just in general, but there's suppliers and and service suppliers and product suppliers that are to the industry. So you can think of you can think of roles of like just in the railways themselves, you can think of operations, sales and business development, finance, engineering, technology. And when you spread it out to the industry as a whole, it just spreads out from there. So basically whatever your skillset is, And your forward trajectory is you can find a home in the rail industry without a doubt. Yeah. And and railroad is just part of a larger supply chain too, right? You're talking intermodal, marine ports, trucking, aviation.
00:05:14
Speaker
um you know Again, the supplier base covers the the pretty much the entire gamut of manufacturing, and a lot of those manufacturers and suppliers, are yeah know their materials are handled by the railroad, so they actually have them all as customers too, right? I think that yeah there's just such a... I think it's time that 90% of the freight ah that goes through the US has touched a train at some point in its journey. I believe that metric is pretty close.
00:05:39
Speaker
yeah it's and I'll pull some more statistics for that for the show notes, but you know railroading is such a critical part of not just our infrastructure, but it touches on so much of the economy that you know you may think you're in a career. and and Part of our intention here is to get people excited about the railroad industry to consider the industry. right It's our way of giving back to it because we need we need people from a wide range of disciplines right now, especially on the tech side. But you may be working in an industry you don't think is related to rail that might be. It might be a weird path to get there, which is why talking to recruiters can be a great way to discover that, hey, wow, I actually have a really valuable skill set. Well, if you look at, say, the class 1s or any of the railroads themselves, people always think of moving trains and train movements, which, of course, comes first to mind. But if we just took a particular window and looked at the maintenance away, which is that arena, which is the track work and the ballast and the bridges and the tunnels,
00:06:29
Speaker
There's engineering companies that simply just work in that arena towards designing the bridges and the tunnels. There's companies that just build the track. There's manufacturers like Placer American that makes the equipment that goes over the tracks that keeps it there. There's the technology that's embedded within all those firms and and scanning the tracks, looking for errors and looking for problems that need to be fixed in maintenance. So just even within that one niche of the rail industry, there's a whole bevy of opportunities. It's always the it's a common phrase, right? There's riches and niches and railroads got tons of niches. Very true.
00:07:09
Speaker
yeah We talked a bit about, we've thrown some terms around different types of railroads, but let's let's stick with freight railroading for now just to simplify the discussion here. But you know how would you classify the distinctions between a class one and a short line railroad, especially in terms of the hiring processes or the types of jobs that are available? wow Well, I guess from a high level working down, the class ones themselves are very large and sprawling. They're the General Motors of the world, if you will. Um, they, uh, Yeah. These are your, these are your BNSFs, your Canadian Northerns. I mean, I'll provide a list in the show. Yeah. BNSF, Canadian National, Canadian Pacific, or KCCP now, or CPKC, I guess I should say. But yes, the class ones, they offer a lot of advantages. One, um, a lot of advancement opportunity and breadth of terrain and opportunities career wise. They generally pay very well and they train very, very well.
00:08:01
Speaker
If I was to cast a negative, um sometimes they can can get a little bit out of your blood, sweat, and tears, if you will, because they can be very demanding. They're 24-7. They never shut off. I say the only thing I can think of being from Texas in the south that they shut down for hurricanes when people pull the locomotives and the cars off the tracks. But aside from that, ah they roll on 24-7. And when you segue to the short lines, they're the handoff between the shippers, the lumber yards, or the plastic pellets, or oil and gas company, and the class one itself. So they're the the last mile, if you will. And in working for those guys,
00:08:41
Speaker
I glibly again, the pay generally isn't as much as the class one. But by the same token, you're going to wear many different hats, and the atmosphere is generally a bit a little bit more relaxed. Short lines can be large and sprawling, or they can be really teeny, teeny, tiny. So it really depends on the atmospherics of them. but But it isn't uncommon to have, you know, a Monday through Friday kind of routine on a short line. In contrast to a Canadian national, that's 24-7, 365 non-stop. So it's a different personality, if you will. Both good and both negative in different arenas.
00:09:16
Speaker
No, exactly. Again, there'll be lots of resources for people in the show notes about where you can find out about these different agencies. And and there's industry groups for each of them as well, like the Shortline Association and things like that. So I'll have those links. Yeah, exactly. Again, you've you've mentioned working with transits. And, you know, ah a little known fact is Amtrak is actually a class one railroad, but also it does handle people. And we talk about dealing with the transit authorities, which again, are used tend to be public agencies or governmental agencies, which do have a very different process than a class one for-profit railroad that's bringing in, you know, billions of dollars a day. Yeah, they have different outlooks. I guess being very high level, I would say the class ones are profit maximizers, right? That that is their name of the game. um And I feel that the transit arena is a different perspective. It tends to be a little bit more political, if you will.
00:10:04
Speaker
And ah in their defense, they have a lot of competing, different competing agendas as what they're trying to accomplish with their operations and moving people not only efficiently and safely and and trying to do it as much as ah profit as possible, but they have other attributes that they're trying to accomplish that may not be profit maximizing, if you will.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah, and and one of the other elements of the industry that i and we've talked about manufacturers and and service providers, and I think one of their critical roles is the really the interstitial pieces between these different agencies, right? Your short lines, the class ones, you're talking about even transit authorities like Amtrak. So i've seen people may have heard the news about PTC or positive train control, which they you know large or took over a decade of implementation. we are bringing telecommunications equipment onto the trains because they have to operate on the same track. So we can avoid ah massive collisions or incidents, which you know to this day still happen, but it makes it easy possible for someone in a back office to stop a train that might be careening into a passenger area. But there's lots of little places like that where manufacturers and suppliers and and service providers really operate to make sure that things between these different agencies work smoothly.
00:11:12
Speaker
So do you want to talk a bit more about the manufacturer's perspective for railroad recruiting? there's There's a whole, I guess maybe if you think of like, I'll go back to the automotive analysis and you think of like a General Motors, right? and You've got a production line trucks are running down the line. Well, General Motors doesn't make all the glass and they don't make the tires and they may not make the gaskets for the engine. And so if you look at this kind of visual, you've got the the truck being bolted together as goes down the line. But you've got all these ancillary industries sending their products to get bolted onto the truck, if you will, the the Goodyear tires, if you will, or the glass company and the rubber companies and the companies that make steering wheels or seats. So all that stuff comes together. And I would say the same way you can kind of use that same visual with with ah with a railroad. Yes, they own the track and the locomotives, but they generally don't own all the rail cars. Those are usually owned by lessors or shippers.
00:12:08
Speaker
um And there's a whole industry that not only provides rail cars or the least less leasing of rail cars, but track work ballast ties Components for locomotives and engines components for rail cars there's a whole system that feeds into the railroad that you and I see going down the track that's largely invisible and you know there's companies that just make parts of of brakes and trucks for the for the rail cars that is is a very specific i guess is why i'd say so there's a lot of suppliers baked into that rail car and locomotive as you watch it go down the track
00:12:48
Speaker
that is largely unseen. And it's not just mechanical or physical components. It's also your software is a huge deal. Anybody listening to this that's in any type of data analytics job, um anyone who has a lot of computer science background is insanely valuable right now because you not not yeah I think one of our industry's weaker points is we do tend to see a lot of antiquated computer systems, maybe not you know maybe at the higher end you larger corporations, but you know public agencies do tend to have some some older software or are looking to upgrade some of their analytics platforms because that's becoming more of a trend. You're seeing it now with AI.
00:13:25
Speaker
um But there's also these support things like um and insurance providers, distributors. you so You mentioned leasing agencies. So there's non-physical component suppliers as well in the supply chain. Well, you bring up an excellent point I didn't hit on earlier is technology. And you're right, generally, again, broad brush, the industry is known for being very old school and resistant to change. I mean, that's a hundred percent. You can love that or dislike it, but it kind of is what it is. But that said, I would say um it's it's being forced on the industry and they're starting to really open up their arms to it because they're starting to see the benefit of it.
00:14:04
Speaker
um You think of the technology as just tracking assets, locomotives, and rail cars. You think of condition maintenance maintenance issues on locomotives or or hot bearings, wheels, and whatnot to know that they might fail. The sensor sends that information back to the home office, so to speak, so they know to pull the rail car off so they can get it fixed. Passenger information systems, fuel management, communications, dispatching, there's so many avenues for technology and engineering to improve the inefficiencies and the visuals of of how your these complex systems operate because there's something like 1.6 million rail cars and I think at any given time there's about 1.3 of floating around.
00:14:46
Speaker
North America. So there's a lot of things to to keep track of. And there's a lot of things to be that can go wrong, right? And shippers want to know where their cars are. And that's one of the other pushes now in the rail industry. People use Amazon, you can track your package, you know, where it is almost literally where it is. And for a long time, you know, shippers would lose where whered my coal car go, you know, somewhere in Pennsylvania somewhere, right? Well, now the technology is getting more in place where they can tell you exactly where it is and when it's going to be to you and that just helps us energies not only from the railroads but you think of the merge charges on the shipper side it just the rail car velocities that it just makes the whole system as you as a whole more fluid more streamlined more efficient and really less costly for everybody yeah there's a lot of systems thinking that goes into this industry um across again all aspects of the industry as well and i think it's one of those things where
00:15:42
Speaker
One of the things I love about most is even though you can be in that theoretical mindset, you get such fast reaction time. You see a direct result a lot faster in our industry. If you try to change something different within your organization, you're going to see a direct impact on the bottom line. If you're working for-profit agency or for transit authority, you might all of a sudden see a peak in ridership. So you're getting a lot better feedback and a lot faster in this industry. And everybody's connected now. I mean, their phones, the phones have changed so much. and you can track so much on your phones. I mean, you can see when your plane flights in or if it's delayed and you can do the same thing on passenger systems. So yeah, the technology is just embedded in our culture more so than ever and and in the rail industry as a whole as well.
00:16:28
Speaker
I want to talk to ah just briefly about some of the skill differentiators and certifications that can really make an impact on our industry. I'm thinking of things that are very much in demand right now. I mentioned data science and literacy. You want to touch on a few more that you ah think of? Well, I always think it's always think is advantageous to invest in yourself, you know even if it's not a specific certification or degree, just reading a book, so to speak. always keeping up on the industry and what's happening. Self-learning, I mean, just growing is always important. um I think maybe, again, kind of going down a little bit further, I would think obviously at college or some people, we want managerial level roles, MBAs and such, so you understand finance and marketing, you have ah a touch on those things. I think so too, in the technical realm, with engineering and technology, a lot of those certifications can be important.
00:17:20
Speaker
And it's a nice signal, too, when you go back to the resume. As you advance through your career, if you if you've got little things there where you've taken extra classes or training or sales training for sales and business development folks, yeah there's always a way to improve yourself. And so I think taking extra courses, whether it's directly related to, I want to advance my career, or it's just kind of tangential, I think that i think that and increases your self worth. That's a wrong way of saying it. But give you more breath. Give you more knowledge and knowledge. Exactly. And listen, the author of me has to stop here and ask you a question. I'm putting you on the spot here. And take your time and think about it. okay again I'll cut out the little pauses here. So give me your mouth rush more books that you feel would help somebody might either whether it be industry specific, recruiting specific, yeah any recommendations you give for the audience? Oh, my
00:18:15
Speaker
You take a time with this one. It's okay. Oh, gosh, I'm gonna have to maybe punt on this to to think about things. Or do you have some favorite books, you know, one or two that you you know, you're, you're really inspired you or something like that. And I can cut out the ah preamble. Most of my books that are really fine and dear in our authors, like F Scott Fitzgerald, St. Exbury, a French writer, But they're more novels and they're not really related directly to the rail industry or business. I would have to punt on this, Chris, and then think about a couple of good books to come back with you on. There's one on the sales side of things. Bettinger came out with a book that I love, and I wish I could... Oh, how I... Well, I'm trying to think... of that how How I turn myself from a failure into a success, I think, is how it's titled. It came out like 1923 or something. It's very old school when you read it, right?
00:19:10
Speaker
but it's on point and it's relatively brief and it's succinct and it's just a lovely, lovely book. Is there anything that you you kind of wanted to touch on that we haven't had a chance to that I can i can either cut in or?
00:19:25
Speaker
I guess the main thing you you point towards is is COVID and post-COVID. The landscape has changed a bit, not only from COVID forcibly shutting down the economy for a spell and everybody sort of self-isolating, which kind of mapped into working remotely, which is kind of morphed into a different thing. And and um it's interesting, with the technology allowing us to work remotely, it opened up a lot of doors and freedom to folks. um And some folks, if if some individuals would with careers such as you know coding or writing, they can operate remotely quite efficiently. um But there's also kind of the pushback that
00:20:07
Speaker
you lose a bit when you're not in an office environment. and And there's younger individuals that have had their whole career now at this point that have never been in an office environment. And there's a whole social etiquette, a way of doing things, and a learning curve to operating an environment with people as opposed to kind of what I do, so to speak, sitting at home with your pink fuzzy slippers on, right? And it's interesting because there was an article actually in the Wall Street Journal today from ah Lewis Gerstner. He is an ex-CEO and chairman of IBM. And he was pointing out that and he brought up some good points saying that, you know, if you really want a leadership position, you can't really stay working remotely. You know, he pointed out time management skills that he learned from his boss that you'd never learn. Um, and also there's sort of a team synergy to getting people to pull in the same direction. Um, you know, I think too, I think of myself is that I think it's really a valuable
00:21:03
Speaker
When you sit in office and you're young in your career and you're starting out and you can sit and listen to your boss, take a tough call from a customer in real time, you know, that's something you will never get from a zoom call or trying to be learned remotely. And while I like the technology, what it allows us to work remotely, I'm a hypocrite. I do this exactly right. I operate my team remotely. I hear you. i can see I can see the positives of it, but I think some people have gone to an all or nothing, and I think there's going to be a pullback towards the office, because I think there's things you lose when you're not sitting in the office with folks. You you know blily you just walk down the hall and ask Susie a quick question, and you get your answer, and you come back, um and you don't have to set up an email or a Zoom call or something. It's just faster.
00:21:54
Speaker
And I just think there's a lot of water core talk that's lost when people are kind of in isolation, if you will, the smaller the company, or the smaller the organization, the more important that is. Because sometimes that culture that you can build, you know, if you have to wear many hats, like we talked about, And the railroad industry is interesting in the fact that there are jobs, like you said, like you and I have talked about where you could do it more remotely. There might be more competition for jobs, salary pressures associated with that, or maybe even hybrid work schedule. um You get access to a bigger talent pool than your, geographic because again, railroading does tend to be very geographically focused. You can't connect railcars together. you can't work you You can't make freight move through the yard and and throw your switches from your kit, like as you could with some certain software. but
00:22:36
Speaker
For the most part, there's a lot of jobs in our industry that are that are mechanical in nature, where you have to be on site to do it, you know, from a safety and ethical perspective. um I think that's also a good thing in the future of AI and some of the automation that's going to be coming. I think there's certain jobs and roles are going to fundamentally look different within the next three to five years. So it's a really good point that, you know, not everything is going to be eligible for remote work. But, and listen, railroading is a great way to see the country too. Some of these, especially the class ones, operate over a large geographical area where you can maybe you know get transferred to different areas. i mean Yeah, not to pick on UP or VNSF, but they operate all over the West. So I mean, you can go everything from Seattle to El Paso. And and yeah, it gives you a lot of opportunities with a class one. Not only they train you, but growth opportunities, travel to see the country. Yeah, a wealth of opportunities.
00:23:31
Speaker
I mean, I think I visited over 25 states just because of my role in the railroad industry. i'm gonna yeah probably I should say states and provinces, but I'm actually going to check that. I'm ah i'm gonna do ah i'm going to do a post here at the end. me i'm very I'm actually curious now. it's like That's a good point though. is i mean You've been to all the different shows, you've met people from all over the country, different walks of life. and that's Again, one of the great things in our industry, it is very diverse in terms of the people and experiences and welcoming at the same time. so Andrew, thank you so much for joining the show. man This has been awesome. yeah any any Any last parting thoughts? or No, happy to help. Happy to disseminate information on recruiting in the rail industry as in general. A very big advocate of that.
00:24:11
Speaker
And if anybody listening would like career help or is looking for a change, know that they can reach out to my agency in confidence and and get good solid information and not jeopardize anything and and having that conversation. What's your yeah URL for your website and then ah ah maybe where they can find you on LinkedIn or social media? Stahlrecooting.com. S-T-A-H-L-R-E-C-R-U-I-T-I-N-G dot.com. I'll get you to the website, but we're also on what, Instagram and X and and a bunch of different
00:24:41
Speaker
social media platforms
00:24:52
Speaker
If you feel that Chris dealt with it, I'd appreciate your support of the show by sharing it with someone who might benefit. Ratings on your favorite podcast player are also helpful in growing the audience. Visit chriscroiter dot.com for free downloadable PDFs with notes and resources from today's episode, sign up for the CDWY mailing list, or to send in your problems or requests for future shows. That's C-H-R-I-S-K-R-E-U-T-E-R dot com, or use the link in the show notes.