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Episode #197: Casey Miller
211 Plays4 years ago
Data journalist Casey Miller visits the PolicyViz Podcast to talk about her work at the Los Angeles Times.
The post Episode #197: Casey Miller appeared first on PolicyViz.
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Transcript
Introduction and Promotions
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Vis podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. I hope you are well, healthy and safe. I also hope you've been able to check out some of the content coming out on my website, policyvis.com. I've had a bunch of new blog posts go out, some new videos around creating visualizations in Excel.
All Charts Considered on Clubhouse
00:00:29
Speaker
And I've also been hosting the daily series on the Clubhouse app, All Charts Considered. If you're not on the app, please send me a note and we will get you invited so you can join in some of these conversations.
Introduction to Casey Miller
00:00:40
Speaker
On this week's episode of the podcast, I'm very excited to welcome Casey Miller from the Los Angeles Times. Casey is a data journalist who automates and analyzes data around disasters, both natural and man-made, that threaten the daily lives of Californians. Now, in the past, Casey also helped create visual and data-driven graphics at Mapbox and at Vox Media.
00:01:00
Speaker
And I didn't actually know about her background
Casey's Background and Influence
00:01:03
Speaker
at Mapbox. So we talk about how that work has actually informed how she approached creating maps at the Los Angeles Times. We also talk about the graphics desk more generally at the LA Times. And we talk about how the graphics desk and the reporters at the LA Times work together to create different visualizations and their evolution to now using data wrapper in the newsroom.
Data Visualization in Disasters
00:01:27
Speaker
So I think you're really going to enjoy this week's episode of the show. I think you're going to learn a lot about how they work at the LA Times. And I really hope that you'll check out some of their work as someone who lives on the East Coast of the United States. I feel like the LA Times work doesn't quite get their due.
00:01:42
Speaker
So I hope you will be able to check out their work, especially Casey's work around these disasters, as mentioned, both natural and manmade over in California. So I hope you'll enjoy this week's episode of the podcast. And here's my discussion with Casey Miller.
Professional Journey
00:02:00
Speaker
Hi, Casey. Welcome to the show. Good to see you. Hey, John. Good to see you too.
00:02:05
Speaker
I'm very excited to have you on the show. Always good to have folks from the LA Times chatting with me because I feel like as an East Coast person, the LA Times doesn't get quite the, I don't know, doesn't quite get the do that it deserves. So I'm excited to have you on the show and talk about the work you've been doing over there. So do you want to talk about your background and how you got into being a data journalist and the work you do at the Times?
Becoming a Data Journalist
00:02:32
Speaker
Sure, yeah. I'll go back kind of far for this, but it's happened when I was in college, I guess for a lot of people, but I had attended a separate university my freshman year and I transferred to University of North Carolina for my sophomore year. And when I got there, I thought that I really wanted to take a graphic design class because it was kind of different than the things that I've been doing. And I wanted to change the pace and it seemed interesting to me.
00:02:59
Speaker
And in order to take the graphic design class, I had to pre declare as journalism major. It's just where they were held in the school. It was the only kind of place to do it. And I was like, okay, this seems interesting enough. Let's try it out. And then from taking that class, um, I, I know I kind of found this data interactive kind of program where we learned a little bit of, uh, JavaScript enough to make some basic interactive charts. And then we also had, you know, introduction to some backend programming. It was in Django at that time. I think it might be something else now, but, um,
00:03:29
Speaker
And so, you know, I kind of, uh, fell in love with making projects that involve these tools and, you know, geared towards storytelling. And I just really fell in love with it. And, um, you know, from then on right out of school, I actually interned, it was then the data desk is now data graphics desk at the LA times. Um, so come full circle there. Uh, and I worked at box for a couple of years, uh, doing a variety of things, including newsroom tools and also storytelling projects.
Role at LA Times
00:03:58
Speaker
And then I worked at Mapbox for a brief stint, got really well versed in those tools that I still use today. And I've been at the LA Times for a little over two years, mostly working on natural disasters kinds of related things. So I maintain our live wildfires map.
00:04:16
Speaker
And, you know, that incorporates a bunch of live fire feeds for hotspots and parameters and things like that, as well as evacuation zones. And then I also kind of rehabbed our quake bot originally built by Ken Twinkie and added some shake maps to that, which was a fun ad that I think everyone has enjoyed. So it's kind of fun to see. We had an earthquake here earlier this week, I think.
00:04:42
Speaker
And it was kind of fun to look at the map after and see, yeah, all these people felt this shaking. So that's always neat.
Mapbox at LA Times
00:04:50
Speaker
So that's interesting. So you interned at the LA Times. So you were living in LA, interning there, and then went to Vox and did these other things, and then come back. Wow. Yeah. So I went to school in North Carolina. I was out in LA for the summer interning. Then I was back on the East Coast. Ping ponged a little bit between New York and DC.
00:05:09
Speaker
right then made it back then i when i joined mapbox i was in the bay and then came back down here for l.a times so jumped around quite a bit yeah so i asked you um a while ago to do a video for the one chart at a time series on choropleth maps i guess we could talk about maps a little bit but i don't think i knew your background with mapbox and so i'm curious
00:05:31
Speaker
about taking the skills and the background of working at Mapbox and now working at a newsroom where you're creating maps for a general, you know, a general readership. So I don't really know what my exact question is. I guess it's, it's really how do you think about blending those two or taking the work that you did at Mapbox and now focusing on that communication side of things.
00:05:54
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's kind of funny. I actually joke sometimes that I use Mapbox more at the LA Times than I did when I worked at Mapbox. I joined a team there I worked with. Originally, it was a very small team. It was a narrative-based team. It was going to be storytelling-based, and I worked very closely with Lo Beneshu, if you know them.
00:06:18
Speaker
That was really cool until it got dissolved and became part of the marketing team, and that it was more so building demonstrations for people. I did get used to the tools, and the outcome of what I was trying to do with them wasn't quite aligned with what I wanted.
00:06:36
Speaker
Like it just wasn't the type of storytelling that I really find engaging. It was more, you know, let me prove how these tools are great, which enabled me to, but now to take those kinds of tools and skills that I learned and use it in my work, which has been really nice. Like, I mean, it was.
00:06:51
Speaker
We at the LA times, when I joined, um, they had previously been using Carto, uh, which had been retired and then had a smattering of other kinds of maps and maps frameworks that, you know, folks had used for different projects, but there wasn't a go-to solution. Um, so, you know, print maps were done one way and they still are in a different way, but, um, Locator maps were one thing, you know, it kind of depended on who was building the map, what they were comfortable with, but it was also challenging because we didn't really have
00:07:20
Speaker
like a single source. And we also basically didn't pay for any, like a lot for any of these sources. We had the great ad hoc plans for the different things. And so, you know, we've kind of made a transition to Mapbox for our team on the editorial side and on the business side, like it's a business side, but the people who like maintain the CMS at the paper, we use Mapbox in there now as well. So we have like a much larger plan that we know we're all kind of centered on that and streamlined through there.
00:07:47
Speaker
So it was a no-brainer for me when I was building the fire map that it was going to be Mapbox. It's a great tool for easily being able to implement scalability in a number of layers, and you know it's going to work all the time, and they have really good support too.
00:08:03
Speaker
Right.
Technical Challenges in Wildfire Mapping
00:08:04
Speaker
So why don't we talk about the wildfire map for two reasons. So the one reason is, you know, anything you want to talk about with the technical parts of the map or just the process of building the map and clearly updating the map. And also a sort of secondary question, which may be even more important, but maybe a little less interest to folks who really want to know how you do your day to day, which is how do you think about
00:08:27
Speaker
a project like that, that is really meaningful. People can make life and death decisions based on what they see in that map. That's very different than making a line chart of GDP growth or something like that. You're making a map where people can really see their homes and how close a fire is to their neighborhood. There's really two questions there and I'll let you just tackle either one if you want.
00:08:53
Speaker
We, I mean, mostly myself and Ben Welsh, and then a couple of other folks with the paper talked a lot about the various data sources that we found for the different layers that we have on the map. And the different layers predominantly are hotspots, whether it be individual hotspots or aggregated hotspots, fire perimeters. We do have an air quality layer, which is kind of interesting to see. And then we also have fire origin points, which is
00:09:21
Speaker
you know, one of the most important layers, and then also the evacuation zones layer, which is the most difficult to maintain, but I think also the most important. And that was a newer ad. I had started to add at the end of 2019, but I really, it got a lot farther, more developed this past year. So, you know, I think part of it is challenging. It's,
00:09:42
Speaker
reading out and then also deciding which sources we wanted to use. So for hotspots, for example, there are five or six different sources and the two that we picked, one is the fastest one and one is the most human verified one. And it's a combination of those things. So we're trying to surface data as quickly as we can, but also try and verify it as much as we can. So just for some background,
00:10:07
Speaker
There are a couple of different NASA satellites that gather hotspot information, and there is a NOAA feed that pulls both of those hotspot feeds from NASA, and then a person actually goes and looks at them and verifies whether it actually seems to get somewhere that's on fire or if it's going to be
00:10:26
Speaker
that's probably a group of solar panels or something. Because there are other things that can reflect and kind of look like it's hot, but it's not actually hot. Oh, interesting. Okay. Or not on fire anyway. Yeah. And so the other source that we have, the fast one is a source that we have from Descartes Labs, and we work with them to kind of get a satellite source from them, which updates much more quickly. It's a couple times an hour versus twice a day.
00:10:50
Speaker
So I think, you know, kind of vetting the data is a huge part of it was a huge part of it. I mean, still continues to be, I have to update, you know, we had to, I had to update one of my feeds last year because it just, they changed it. Um, I would say honestly, an interesting thing, but the least useful is like the fire perimeters. Um, just cause they're often outdated and they're not updated as frequently showing you the extent of where the fires burned, which is an interesting thing to see, but it's.
00:11:16
Speaker
not really relevant in real time because the hotspots and evacuation zones are much more helpful when it comes to seeing what you need to know or what your family needs to know or what not in real time.
Managing Evacuation Zones Data
00:11:30
Speaker
I will talk a little bit about the evacuation zones. It was a fun challenge, but also challenging. Unlike all of our other sources, there is not one main place to go for evacuation zones.
00:11:43
Speaker
They're all put out by, well, that's not one source anyway, but it's much more disseminated. It's usually the local fire department or the county office or the sheriff's office sometimes, and you have to do some strategic looking around. Sometimes NCWeb, which is a fire agency, will have sometimes links, sometimes will write up where the evacuation zone is.
00:12:11
Speaker
Uh, other times you'll have to Google for it and see, you know, if there are local county agency, you know, has somebody tweeted about this is linked to like the Facebook page for that county that has a, like a PNG of this map. And then you have to figure out how you're going to extract it. And, you know, that's.
00:12:26
Speaker
sometimes easy if, you know, they're using like an ArcGIS map and you can go in and you can find the layer and you can go to the server and you can query the server and pull down that G.I. Jason, which is ideal. Other times, it's just a written two sentence paragraph of, you know, started by the north side of this lake and extends down to the old schoolhouse and this like
00:12:49
Speaker
on the crossroads of Maine and first. And that would actually be an easier one. I've had some that are just really challenging to figure out and it's honestly my best guess. And I kind of err on the side of, well, I'd rather have it on there and it'd be a little bit off and not put on there at all.
00:13:05
Speaker
And so I've kind of worked to streamline that process a little bit. Uh, wrote up some documentation for it over the last, uh, last summer, just because it was challenging. Uh, also in that, like, I was the one grabbing all these things and they, it was, you know, I wanted to kind of help other folks learn how to do it as well, but we were in the throes of a like huge fire season and me trying to kind of show folks in a way that made sense.
Collaboration in Graphics and Reporting
00:13:31
Speaker
But then also make sure all of these places were updated. It was kind of too much to do at that point in time. So now we have some documentation. And I think that this year, other folks will be able to jump in and also find and add those zones too, probably with, you know, I'm sure we'll have a Slack channel around it and we'll talk it through when they're, you know, questioned, things like that. But we're set up now in a better way to have folks contribute to it.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah, that was really interesting. So just to continue this thread, as you look forward and not in a good way to the next fire season, now you have this sort of infrastructure set up. And this is sort of a broader question, but how does the graphics team then interact with the journalist team, either for this project or for any project, just seeking a little bit more of information about how do the teams work together in the newsroom specifically?
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about this project. And then I'll kind of talk about it a little bit more broadly, too. So for the maps itself, unlike a lot of the things we do, it's one of the few applications we maintain. So most of the graphics are, you know, graphically driven things that we do are standalone pieces. And I mean, this is the standalone piece, but you know, it's continually updated. So for this one, you know, we worked with a lot of the like,
00:14:45
Speaker
reporters who cover fires and natural disasters to figure out what we wanted to surface and how they wanted to use it. And also there is a view of this map that is embeddable within stories in the CMS. So that's something that gets used very frequently, especially for new fires that have evac zones and things like that. On the other side of things, there's a mix between folks coming to us with
00:15:09
Speaker
ideas for stories that they kind of want to investigate or, you know, are starting to report on and they really want to like pull us in from the beginning. And it's not so much of a service-desky kind of thing. It's more about we're going to collaborate on this kind of idea. And then there's the other side of it too, which is we also pitch our own ideas. So there are stories that are homegrown on our desk and, you know, folks do all the reporting and data reporting and all the graphics and, you know, it's, I don't want to say isolated, but fully produced by our desk.
00:15:37
Speaker
Now, as far as traditional newsroom charts basically, bar charts, line charts, sometimes simple locator maps that are more of a request kind of thing, we're actually
00:15:50
Speaker
You know, we've instituted my manager and like the team that has instituted, you know, a service where we use data wrapper to create these basic tools. We have a planned data wrapper. We work with them very closely to get custom styles for our charts, both print and web. And we are starting to kind of create like a production line that one of us mans.
00:16:13
Speaker
every day. So it's, you know, once every two weeks or so, you end up being like on call for helping reporters make these charts, you know, it's a lot less of a load than having someone come to you and ask, you know, can you make me this custom chart? So I think, you know, we still want to help out and it's still in the purview of graphics. But, you know, we want to really focus, I think where this allows us to focus more on the creative data storytelling that you know, we really shine doing.
00:16:39
Speaker
When a reporter asks you, are they asking you to make the chart in Data Wrapper or they're trained up in such a way where they're asking you to sort of like more of a quality control check? Right now it's kind of a mix. So this is, I think, you know, ideally we want to get to a place where all of the reporters can make the charts and it's more of a quality check kind of thing. But since it is something new that we've instituted, you know, there is a mix right now. So there are some folks who have been making charts in Data Wrapper for over a year and there are some folks who have never made one and do develop making one.
00:17:09
Speaker
Right.
Interactivity in Storytelling
00:17:10
Speaker
So does that mean then that the other tools that you use and know how to use like Mapbox and JavaScript and D3 and these other tools, does that mean those tools are used for the larger projects, the more in-depth projects? I don't want to say in-depth in a bad way. Yeah, no, no, more technically in-depth, I guess. Yeah.
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that's right. I mean, I think, you know, we have, we have, one of the unique things to think about this team is that it's the data and graphics team, which is the result of the formerly known data desk and the formerly known graphics team at the LA Times.
00:17:47
Speaker
As such, there's a variety of people on the scene who have different skill sets. So like, you know, we have folks who are amazing at illustrator and can do 3d graphics. And that is none of the skills that I have. And, um, you know, it's really great to be able to work with folks and kind of pair on projects or, you know, um, smaller graphics or larger graphics to kind of figure out who has what skills to get the thing done most efficiently, or, you know, also learn new skills from, um, right.
00:18:16
Speaker
I do use a lot of JavaScript, a lot of D3. We have a lot of folks who, I mean, myself included, but do data processing in Python or R. It varies. We do have a build system for our projects, so static site generators that we use for most of the projects we produce that are standalone, which is maintained by a few folks on the team.
00:18:41
Speaker
And, you know, there's nothing wrong with like using D3 for like a smaller chart or something. It's just, we've tried to kind of get away from that because the overhead is so much bigger for, you know, spinning up a chart in D3 versus quickly going into data wrapper or making a bar chart for someone. Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah.
00:18:58
Speaker
In your experience, since even you've been doing this a while, um, and I was literally, uh, before we started talking, I was on another call, uh, about interactive graphics. And since you've moved from, I guess, in sort of like the, the general graph from D three, from a more bespoke custom graph to data wrapper, what is your take on, on interactivity when it comes to creating graphs? I mean.
00:19:21
Speaker
You know, when D three sort of first became really popular, everything was interactive. And I feel like we've pulled away from that a little bit. And now with tools like flourish and data wrapper, we're sort of getting a little bit back to that. Um, but only because, you know, it's a little bit easier now to build those. So like, what's your take on the balance between interactive graphics versus static graphics? Yeah. Uh, I think, you know, honestly for.
00:19:47
Speaker
most graphics, I think they don't need to be interactive, um, to, you know, a large degree. I do think that, you know, if you really need to be able to surface granular information, having, there's a difference also between like having tool tips for something and then, or like, and like animating bars. Like, I think, you know, it's really a scale of, you know, how much do you need to show? And I think that having the ability to drill down and show more information is definitely useful, but I don't know if I think that like,
00:20:17
Speaker
you know, I'm going to use, I'll use the animating bars again, but like, you know, the scaling out the bars, unless you're trying to show change, um, it's useful. So I think, you know, like a lot of times you just need that bar chart or that line chart. If you're really trying to use the same chart to kind of show differences over time or show, you know, how, you know, the difference between these two things are, that's what animation really comes into play. And I think that for us and like, I think that you see that in a lot of the more custom graphics that we do, but you know, we don't need it for, um, a lot of the, these simpler.
00:20:47
Speaker
just as good, but simpler charts that we do. It's just the animation wouldn't add anything to it and often, you know, it would even make it a little bit obscured in what we're trying to show. Right. And then how do you think about that interaction of the interactivity or the animation with what I presume is a large share of your readers who are going through your content on mobile devices?
Designing for Mobile
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of funny because
00:21:14
Speaker
I've always thought about mobile first. And I don't say that as like, you know, I'm better or anything. It's just when I graduated from school, that was the thing. Mobile first was like the thing that was drilled into use. And I use my phone all the time. And I know that I'm one of those people who will more likely see the graphic from any news site or, you know, what have you on my phone than on my computer, unless I'm seeing it while I'm working. And I think that, you know, I put, we all put a lot of time into it.
00:21:41
Speaker
I prefer to start there and kind of think about the interactions like it is definitely challenging with some technologies like you know I was working on a project with some folks recently where we were trying to instead of having like an auto playing video we were trying to allow you to physically scroll through the video so you would scroll down the page and it would advance the frames of the video
00:22:04
Speaker
And it worked fine on desktop. It did not work well on mobile. You know, the scroll itself, the scroll through the video worked okay, but we are trying to have like these interstitial points where cards would come up and you'd see more detailed information.
00:22:20
Speaker
interactivity you're speaking of. The way that mobile registers the scroll is totally different than the way the desktop registers the scroll. You don't get everything you get when you started and when you ended. You just skip these spans of time. That's how we were keying these things to these locations. It just
00:22:40
Speaker
totally flopped. And, you know, we were on deadline for this thing. And so we kind of retooled how we wanted it to work and tabled that. Like, okay, we learned a lot from that. We'll come back to it. I think it's a cool idea, not for this project. Oh, interesting. So in that case, it really was, and primarily because of it, it sounds like because of the deadline, it's like, we're not going to put this out because it's not going to work on mobile. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. We, we switched to.
00:23:06
Speaker
This is a project we did recently on Pico Boulevard. We featured a number of different places, businesses, some restaurants, some more traditional businesses along Pico Boulevard in Los Angeles, and showing how they've changed over the year of the pandemic. Some of the reporters wrote little anecdotes to go with that and pulled quotes from
00:23:27
Speaker
the business owners and we had one of the videographers actually like drive down all of Pico. So like from the coast down to downtown and we used, we did use that video, but we ended up like, you know, cutting like pieces of it to show where the locations were. And instead of scrolling through it, we had, um, kind of like, it was about the slide, like scroll up kind of slide thing. Like the videos would auto play and you, the information would come up, you'd read it. The next video would auto play.
00:23:54
Speaker
rather than, you know, you scrolling through the whole video yourself. But it was like really cool to explore. And I think that, you know, having the time to kind of look into that and realize that there is something there, even if we couldn't turn it around. And after this project, I think we'll definitely want to use it for something in the future.
00:24:12
Speaker
Right. And so now you've got this experience and presumably it's not just your part of the graphics desk, but it's also the journalist. It's also the, I assume there's, I don't know anything about this, but I assume there's like kind of like, like a backend person or people who, you know, have more experience of how to piece all this together for the next time.
Balancing Print and Digital Media
00:24:32
Speaker
Uh, yeah, kind of. Um, so yeah, we worked with a number of reporters on this story and, um, we were on the business desk and then it was a group of, um, three of us from the data and graphics team. But I will say like, uh, kind of like how I think about earlier with us having different skillsets, there are a couple of us who also do back end work on this team. So, um, it would probably be, you know, either one of the two of us who was kind of doing that work will probably be on the next story where we might have used this kind of.
00:25:01
Speaker
tool. But we also, I think, you know, another different view, if we weren't working on it, we would probably talk to a partner with the person who was working on it for a little bit, just kind of share the knowledge that we'd gained. Right.
00:25:15
Speaker
So one more question on this, this balance of these different platforms, because you and I were on a chat on the clubhouse app a couple of days ago and the topic of print came up. And so now you've got like, you've got mobile, you've got desktop and you've got print and you know, a decade ago or so.
00:25:32
Speaker
My understanding was that newsrooms were doing three separate things for each of those different platforms. There's still a big print circulation of the LA Times. Let's just take this story that you just did. How do you think about the balance between that versus the desktop mobile experience versus the print experience? Yeah, that's a great question.
00:25:55
Speaker
You know, I think like many other newsrooms, the mobile and desktop experiences, as far as technology is used, very similar. It's, you know, maybe scaled differently or things like that. But for print, it can be different. So.
00:26:12
Speaker
Like I mentioned, we have data wrapper for a lot of the print charts we do. And that works for maps as well for simple maps. Um, so, you know, locator maps or things where we're trying to show points on a map. It's more challenging with things like Cora plus or any kind of like overlays you'd have. Um, so, you know, if it's a simple map, we can often do it. What can data wrapper can export for, uh, the web and for print. And it's a different style, but it works for both. And for more complex things, you know,
00:26:41
Speaker
It is a different project. So like I worked on a couple of weeks ago.
00:26:47
Speaker
I worked with one of our reporters, Doug Smith, on pulling the new tsunami evacuation zones for the LA County area. And so this data was updated for the first time in 10 years, and they based it on a different large event than the previous ones. It used to be based on a once in 500 years event, and it's now based on a one in 1,000 year event. So it's a little bit bigger, and the evacuation zones are a little bit larger.
00:27:13
Speaker
web version using Mapbox and now we need to do a print version and you cannot export print from Mapbox. It doesn't work that way.
00:27:22
Speaker
You know, I will work with one of the folks who is a little bit more well-versed and I can get around an illustrator, but I am by no means an expert. Um, so somebody who's a little bit better at illustrator than I am who has more experience working with print, um, to do these kinds of things. And so we'll kind of collaborate on that, which is, you know, I would say this is not super common. A lot of the graphics we do for the paper, we can do with data wrapper, but every, every once in a while, um, you know, there is something that needs to be a little more custom.
00:27:51
Speaker
but it's a whole different process. Interesting. Interesting. Wow. Okay. Well, I think you've got your work cut out for you and it sounds great. I mean, the wildfire map, although it's not something I really have to worry about here in Virginia, I do find it really interesting, fascinating project. So thanks for working on that. I'll just put it that way. And it sounds like there's so much data getting pulled together that is really incredible. So
00:28:16
Speaker
Casey, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been great chatting with you and learning about the work over there at the Times. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I had a great time speaking. Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of the show. I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you learned a little bit about how the LA Times graphics desk works. And I hope you will check out Casey's work and the rest of the team over at the LA Times. So until next time, this has been the Policy Viz Podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
00:28:47
Speaker
A number of people help bring you the PolicyViz podcast. Music is provided by the NRIs, audio editing is provided by Ken Skaggs, and each episode is transcribed by Jenny Transcription Services. If you would like to help support the podcast, please share it and review it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. The PolicyViz podcast is ad-free and supported by listeners. If you would like to help support the show financially, please visit our Patreon page at patreon.com slash PolicyViz.