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Beyond the Visual: How Tactile Maps Expand Data Accessibility
220 Plays1 hour ago
In this week’s episode, I welcome Jakub Wabiński and Vincent van Altena to the show to talk about their new book, Tactile Mapping. We explore how tactile and multisensory design can make maps—and data—more accessible for people with visual impairments and beyond. Jakub and Vincent share insights into how tactile maps are designed, tested, and used in real-world settings like museums and public spaces. We also discuss user-centered design, the challenges of scaling inclusive practices, and how tactile mapping can help everyone better understand and navigate the world around them.
Keywords: Jakub Wabiński, Vincent van Altena, PolicyViz Podcast, Jon Schwabish, tactile mapping, inclusive cartography, data accessibility, tactile design, haptic maps, visual impairments, data visualization, inclusive design, spatial data, accessibility in mapping, geovisualization, map design, tactile graphics, inclusive data storytelling, multisensory design, universal design, ICA working group, TREP project, accessible data visualization
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Check out Jackub and Vincent's book Tactile Mapping
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Email: jon@policyviz.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Tactile Mapping
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Viz Podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. On this week's episode of the show, we turn to tactile mapping, a new book out of Esri Parse from Vincent van Altena and Jakob Wubinski, tactile mapping, cartography for people with visual impairments. That's right.
00:00:30
Speaker
We are going to talk about mapping and cartography in the real world for people who have vision impairments, be blindness, low vision, or other vision impairments. So that means we're talking about maps that you can touch, you can feel,
00:00:42
Speaker
you can use in the real world. And I think the way Vincent and Jakob talk about this, as you'll hear during the interview, is a really interesting way to
Designing for Inclusivity
00:00:52
Speaker
think about it. So let's let's think about this.
00:00:53
Speaker
When we think about designing our data products, be it an app or a website or a data visualization, let's create a distribution of people in whatever dimension you want to think about on either axis of that histogram, okay?
00:01:05
Speaker
So we've got a distribution of people. Just picture a bell curve, if you will, okay? So we often sort of design for the 80% of the people in the middle of that distribution. We aim for the majority of people.
00:01:16
Speaker
The way Vincent and Jakob and their contributors to this book think about this is instead of thinking about the middle 80%, let's think about the 20% of people who are on the far edges of that distribution.
00:01:27
Speaker
And if we can design our products for people along the outer part of that distribution, we're more likely to capture the people, um the rest of the 80% of people in the middle of the distribution.
00:01:39
Speaker
And so what you're gonna hear us talk about is ways in which individuals, particularly with disabilities or other vision impairments can interact with data and can interact with maps to better understand the world around
Getting Involved in Tactile Mapping
00:01:51
Speaker
them. And you're also gonna hear about a lot of different resources, a lot of different programs that they are involved in that you can also be involved in. If you wanna learn how to do this, if you wanna be a part of the solution or the practice, this is the episode for you.
00:02:06
Speaker
The book itself is great. Each chapter starts with a story from a person who has a vision impairment or another disability and the challenges that they faced in better understanding data and the world around them.
00:02:18
Speaker
And then each chapter is written by a researcher or a practitioner of the space ah working to create these better, more effective and more useful maps for people with visual impairments. So I think you're really going to like this episode before I turn it over to our conversation. Just a reminder to please rate or review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
00:02:37
Speaker
Could be on my site, could be on Spotify, could be on iTunes. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe there as well. And if you haven't yet, please do sign up for my Substack newsletter.
Book Format and Approach
00:02:48
Speaker
comes out with every podcast episode with some good nuggets of things I'm reading, things I'm watching, data visualizations that ah have caught my attention, and of course, some original analysis that I do myself on data and data visualization. And you can check that out with all the links in the show notes below.
00:03:05
Speaker
So without any more delay, let's head over to my interview with Vincent von Altaner and Jakob Wabinski, editors of the new book, Tactile Mapping, Cartographers for People with Visual Impairments, only on this week's episode of the Policy Biz Podcast.
00:03:22
Speaker
Vincent, Jakob, good to meet you. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, great meeting you. Very exciting. um New book, Tactile Mapping. Probably not a place that a lot of people in the database field think about a lot, which is like working in the physical tactile world, which is what attracted me to the book.
00:03:41
Speaker
So I'm excited to talk to you about it, the motivation, some of your favorites in it. But just so we can give listeners kind of a... you know, framework for who they're listening to today. I thought we'd just start with some basic introductions and then talk about the book. So maybe Vincent, you can talk a little bit about yourself and then Jakob, and then we'll we'll we'll dive in.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm Vincent van Altena. I'm from the Netherlands and there I work as a senior consultant research at the Dutch Cadastre, so the Dutch National Mapping and Cadastre Agency.
00:04:14
Speaker
And my main domain is cartography and topography. And by the way, I'm not a drummer. That's my son's dad kid. Yeah. yeah Yeah, we've had this long conversation before we recorded about drums because I keep trying to get into my drumming and failing miserably. But yeah, so that's ah probably just a little insight into everybody's family life about what we're doing here.
00:04:38
Speaker
Hi there. So my name is Jakub Wabiński and I work for the Military University of Technology in Warsaw, Poland. And I am a researcher and lecturer there because it's really complicated to convert the European position names into American standards.
00:04:56
Speaker
So I just keep it simple. Researcher and lecturer. Gotcha. Are you both trained as cartographers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my training was in Geodesy and cartography. So it was more about serving also hydrography, but then I shifted into cartography, uh, later during my PhD.
00:05:16
Speaker
Okay. Okay. And Vincent, you're, you're trying to start for, too. Well, actually I started as a theologian, so I did my best. Yeah. So if, if we need some help from above, you, uh, can I speak?
00:05:29
Speaker
And then I did my master's in the geo-information science. And then I finally did my PhD in combining theology and geo-information science. But that's something for another podcast. That's another podcast, maybe a different, maybe a totally different show that. Yeah. um
Creating the Tactile Maps Book
00:05:46
Speaker
Okay, great. So, um,
00:05:48
Speaker
So with that as background, can you talk about you know how did this book come together? What was the motivation? And then also, ah because it's a volume, how did you identify contributors and and manage all the different pieces?
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think I'm the one to blame who who initiated the stuff. So um for me though for me, the whole story started in 2017. So that that's when I got introduced to Tactile Maps.
00:06:18
Speaker
um Well, that actually um yeah evolved into ah a Dutch national mapping project and and working on the project. We also came to know, for instance, Jakub from Poland and some other researchers.
00:06:35
Speaker
And for me, I finally thought, well, actually, when I first got to know about tactile maps, I thought, well, this is quite new. And then I discovered there has been research for for for decades, I would say.
00:06:52
Speaker
And then I thought, well, how how can it be that this is not knowledge which is available to everyone? And that's what we're thinking. Well, of course, we have our tactile mapping project where we yeah ah catch fish and produce cook the fish for for people.
00:07:09
Speaker
But why not teach people how to fish? And that's that's how I got thinking and thought, well, we should predict create a popular book, um which yeah interviews introduces people into into the world of of tactile mapping.
00:07:26
Speaker
And and i asked Jacob if he was willing to join me. um And we both started chasing contributors. ah So we we we discussed, well, what kind of contributors do want?
00:07:40
Speaker
contributors do we want and because we we had ah three types of contributions in mind. So expert chapters, projects and personal stories from people who are fish visually impaired themselves.
00:07:53
Speaker
um And yeah, well, that's that's how the ball got
Challenges in Book Development
00:07:57
Speaker
rolling. Right. Yeah. And at the time, I didn't know what I'm applying for, given the the deadlines that Vincent imposed.
00:08:05
Speaker
yeah Yeah. We made it. and yeah and And everything like itda it's a collaboration of over 30 people yeah in the book. um So as Vincent said, like chasing those people to keep even tighter deadlines that we gave them.
00:08:23
Speaker
Sam impossible. um yeah But yeah, there we are. Did you as you started formulating your list of contributors, did you set about trying to set a sort of specific balance of, as you mentioned, practitioners versus researchers? I mean, the stories we can sort of put aside for a second, but like, did you have an idea of the balance between the sort of two different groups?
00:08:49
Speaker
Yeah, well, well what we wanted to do, we even wanted to include more user stories and also more projects.
00:08:59
Speaker
he But and yeah, we also found out given my crazy deadlines, and and that it was also very hard to to find contributors who were able also to deliver something. And and sometimes it it was also, ah especially for the the personal stories, you are asking also quite quite something from from someone.
00:09:21
Speaker
It's right. Yeah. Give insight into into someone's personal worlds. and And that's also not everyone is willing to do this, of course. So that's also. saying Yeah. Yeah. So people sort of know most of the chapters, if if I think maybe all of the chapters start with.
00:09:39
Speaker
It's kind of a personal story of someone who's working with a tactile map, maybe has a ah disability or a vision impairment. What was that process like? Because I can imagine that being a very different process than saying, hey, professor so-and-so, write a chapter on your research.
00:09:57
Speaker
Yeah. ah So that there was... um and So both Jacob and I and and also some other people involved in the project, they are involved in doing yeah user research.
00:10:12
Speaker
um So there we knew some people um who might be willing willing to contribute to this TIPSIS. So and and we thought, well, okay, maybe maybe these people do have a nice story to tell.
00:10:26
Speaker
um and and that yeah that's how everyone got involved. But we also asked from the researchers and professors please start your chapter also with a personal yeah story, anecdote, telling how you got involved into this world, also to make the story more and more attractive.
00:10:47
Speaker
but also to to yeah show there's also an intrinsic motivation to contribute. Yeah, just to make it more engaging. But also on top of that, we really fought and wanted to involve more and more people, not even regardless of the deadlines. ah But then we just thought, OK,
00:11:07
Speaker
we're only scratching the surface with this book basically. Like there's lot of topics being covered, but every chapter has this further reading section. ah So we asked the contributors to just provide further references if somebody wants to dive in into a specific domain of this tactile mapping thing.
00:11:25
Speaker
And then we thought, okay, like, We don't want to make this book too academic on one hand. So that's why we thought, okay, let's put case studies and user series to it, but also don't make it like, I don't know, 500 pages or something, because that would be just illegible to to immortal beings. So yeah, outside of academic world.
00:11:48
Speaker
So that was the idea behind this whole project. Yeah. I mean, I think you see in a lot of sort of popular... you know what we might call popular data or math books, the stories are the things that sort of tie them together, right? Like Invisible Women and Weapons of Math's Destruction, like all those books sort of use the stories to tie into the into the more complicated or complex topics.
Tactile vs Digital Data Communication
00:12:10
Speaker
um Okay, so into the book itself, um what struck me, and I think this really... was emphasized for me in chapter five is when we think about visualizing data in the digital world, we think about sort of a pretty finite set of encodings like bars, lines, you know circle, something like that.
00:12:28
Speaker
But in the tactile world, like that sort of explodes into infinity. We sort of use almost anything. And I'm just curious about how you all think about approaching data communication in the tactile world versus the digital world in the sort of different encodings that we have at our disposal?
00:12:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, ah I would argue that the sets doesn't really expand. it just It just transforms to a different form. And in a tactile world,
00:13:05
Speaker
in a sense that is just for haptic perception because obviously like and I don't really like the English word tactile because I think it just refers to to touch more than what we have ah in Polish. week We have TIF law and it's just for any other sense basically that is somehow related to people visual impairments. But nevertheless, it's just when you consider haptic perception. So if we just stick withp da with the with this perception using fingertips, basically, then you haven't you have to have in mind that the the resolution of a fingertip is approximately 10 times worse or lower than this of an eye.
00:13:46
Speaker
So you know to in in order to to convey a graph or ah or any other visualization, a map or whatever, it either has to be 10 times bigger, which is impractical if you want to touch it, or you have to simplify it.
00:14:01
Speaker
then told. right And then the symbols have to be big enough and simple enough. um So in reality, you have a limited set of elements that could build up on to create graphs and stuff like that in data visualization.
00:14:18
Speaker
But if you can consider tactile form, then it's even more limited. um Also added to that, when you look on ah on at a graph or something like that, you just perceive it all at once and then you can dive into details.
00:14:34
Speaker
But if you're a person with visual impairment, so you either have this tunnel vision or use your fingertips, so you just read it um part by part and then you have to create a mental image of the hole in your brain, which is...
00:14:48
Speaker
um really cognitively expensive. I don't know if it's a correct term. Sorry, i'm not a native English speaker. um I think that's right. No, I think the the cognitive load on that is really high. Yeah, the cognitive load. Yeah, it's pretty high. so So you have to keep it simple. And that's ah that's a real challenge, actually, not only in tactile mapping, but tactile graphics in general. So any other drawing that you you convert to that form.
00:15:16
Speaker
ah Yeah, so you can play with haptic and visual variables because it is worth mentioning that you know many of the people who are considered facilityed legally blind, they still have residual vision.
00:15:27
Speaker
So it's not only the it's sometimes also large print. ah when you when you're talking about annotations, but the same applies to symbols. right So you have this haptic form that is extruded and there are some certain feelings, but there are also contrasting colors you know for for anybody else, basically.
00:15:47
Speaker
This is the idea. like ah You don't really want to make an ActonMap that is only valid for for legally blind people, but it's just valid for everyone else looking at it. So that's ah that's the main idea behind it.
00:15:59
Speaker
And that's really complicated to make a good tactile map, given all that constraints. Right, so so a good tactile map in that sense, you have all these sort of options and like examples in the book are like blocks versus sewing versus braille versus, know, there's a ton of options in here that you can that you can sort of play around with and think about.
00:16:20
Speaker
Yes, and to add on that, you already mentioned that it's not only touch and vision, it's also audio feedback, vibratory, it's still haptic, but different types of feedback, multi-sensory is the word here, is the term here for how you make this kind of stuff.
Multisensory Feedback in Design
00:16:39
Speaker
this kind of stuff Right. And I want to come back to that for for, I have a question for you later on, on sort of scaling these projects broader um as we think about like mobile phones and and on the go and that sort of thing. But we'll we'll get to that in ah in a second.
00:16:54
Speaker
um There's also an interesting chapter in the book on user-centered design, which upon seeing it, i was like, oh, that's interesting that that's here. But in in reflection, it makes total sense, especially the way you've sort of described how you came about sort of putting the book together.
00:17:12
Speaker
And I was wondering if you talk just a little bit about um user centered design and whether it's any different in the tactile haptic world versus like doing data visualization or data work anywhere else.
Inclusive Design Philosophy
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah. and So, so the I was thinking about this question and I thought, well, actually, is this really different than designing for other people?
00:17:40
Speaker
And of course, you it's different because you are coping with people who have visual challenges. and So you you need to to take change it to another sensory approach.
00:17:53
Speaker
um But doing user research, and that's also the nice thing of the chapter, is and which is written written by Robert Roth and Sedenek.
00:18:06
Speaker
I have difficulties for pronouncing his name. But but they what what was really, really nice of the chapter is they say and they start with a yeah design mantra, and which is nothing about us without us.
00:18:20
Speaker
So what they say, you need to have the yeah prospective user involved all the way. So not only to have them yeah get them involved at the end, but have them involved at the start and then during several iterations, have them evaluate.
00:18:40
Speaker
ah Do a sort of formative evaluation, not only afterwards, but during the process and also at the start to do a good inventory of their what what they would like to do.
00:18:53
Speaker
And I think that that's really nice off of the chapter and there's something and there's something else which is also very nice of of the chapter is that. ah Usually ah when and in normal ah design um or yeah maybe maybe a bit outdated insights in design is it's focused when when you see the the population.
00:19:19
Speaker
and so as a bell curve, so for statistics, normally they say, well, let's go for the middle 80% and let's exclude the percent on the edges ah because, well, we we we cannot handle everything.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yes. um the the The chapter by Roth, yeah, inverses it and says, well, you have to design for the edges.
00:19:46
Speaker
yeah And when you design for the edges, it will also be suitable for the middle 80%. And that's also something which is which is very nice. And of course, how does does this translate to to a user design for for a tactile map?
00:20:03
Speaker
Then it's, well, you start with designing for people who are completely blind. working and then say okay but like Jakob already said um we you can also add ah some primary colors for people with residual vision which helps helps it helps them also to to read the map which strengthens also the message but then you also have to be aware of people with coefficient impairedness so that's also why you don't cannot use all the colors but by doing so you also help sighted people to read maps because it makes it easier to perceive the maps and to discuss about the same map in front of you when you have colors included in a very simple agent so so yes
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's something inferring the way how you do user ah research. I think that's that's that's really helpful.
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah. There's one more thing I want to add to what Vincent said. ah And sorry for stepping in like this. but off The one difference is actually when you do user testing, nowadays, it's quite often online and you're good to go.
00:21:26
Speaker
Whereas when you do something tangible, then you have to invite those people to just to just touch it and see it and evaluate it on site, which is a challenge if you consider that you know you you you you need to plan ahead. If you do this ah like evaluation study session, then you have to invite those people to a place they oh, it would be great if they know the place, but it's easily accessible for people with different types of disabilities.
00:21:54
Speaker
yeah It should be a safe environment. Obviously, it's best if it's paid, but it's a common thing user testing. But the most important thing is that actually you have to meet these people in person, which is not always the case. You know such you can just evaluate visualization online.
00:22:15
Speaker
yeah That's good. So to that point, we've been talking about vision impairments, but you mentioned there's lots of other forms of of disability. So how does tactile mapping or, I mean, it doesn't have to be mapping, as you mentioned earlier, it can to be tactile anything.
00:22:28
Speaker
How do you think of it for people who might have disabilities where, you know, they have difficulties moving their arms or they're in a wheelchair where maybe they can't stand up at a regular height table and and reach it?
Accessibility Considerations for Wheelchair Users
00:22:40
Speaker
How do people in this area, work with folks who have other forms of disabilities or other forms of impairments. Oh, yeah, that's ah that's a completely another story.
00:22:53
Speaker
Basically, and that's something you know, there are some ideas now that since title maps are basically simplified versions of maps, multi sensory versions of, of maps, or we can talk about graphics as well, is that they would work for other groups, like other people, for example, right, who they don't have this ability of spatial perception.
00:23:16
Speaker
yeah are Some argue that they would work nice for children or even you know people from audience spectrum. That's not yet evaluated. This is actually something that I'm thinking about now.
00:23:28
Speaker
But for example, the wheelchairs, we're stepping into this universal design domain. yeah So when you design outdoor tactile maps, for example, you put them on ah on a high level that it can be accessible by children, by people using wheelchairs.
00:23:45
Speaker
the The table ah the or ah or or monument that its the map is put on, it has to be slanted so that you can drive underneath with your wheelchair. So all these considerations are important if you want to make you know um the product for everyone. But obviously, it's always a trade-off. You know, it's just right so both me and Vincent and other researchers in this field that we know this or anyone actually doing some user testing knows it that, you know, you you get different opinions and they are just.
00:24:17
Speaker
um counter opinions and in a sense so i had this opinion i saying okay you know this yellow is too bright i kind of distinguish it's from the white background the other one was saying oh this yellow is perfect i like i love it so much right you know so yeah so it's obviously a trade-off you you just have to take and if we go into back into the bell curve oh yeah we get this outliers these opinions from the edges but you know we have to I'm somewhere in the middle still yeah to just try to please everyone, not fully, but yeah yeah know you know in a way that is satisfying and legible, whatever we make.
00:24:57
Speaker
And and it's it's of course, so you try to standardize. And what we also have been trying to do is is to and help people to standardize them methods to create methodical approach um to fill that toolbox with tools. um So so they they can start building on common knowledge and avoid a number of pit holes.
00:25:26
Speaker
But there still is a shouldn't, yeah like Jakob said, a trade off or tailor made involved ah because you have to fit the to the specific needs. so specific person.
00:25:38
Speaker
for For instance, to add add on this, and I won't go into that rabbit hole, but um for instance, our tactile mapping book is totally unfit for yeah to accommodate ah deaf people.
00:25:51
Speaker
ah But there are also initiatives to accommodate deaf people, for instance, because you have toponyms. and in in a specific language and yeah communicating about them in sign language can be very difficult. So people also started to create specific signs for toponyms in the national language. So that's a totally different subject, but there yeah there are so many ways to be creative and to see how we can open up a world like this to to yeah people with a certain challenge.
00:26:23
Speaker
yeah Right. and I think it's ah it's a good moment to actually mention the working group, is it? Of course, yes. Yes, because me and Vincent, we're co-chairing a working group on inclusive cartography that is part of the International Cartographic Association.
00:26:40
Speaker
And hopefully, the you will share the link to the website yeah and ah in the description or something. But so the idea is that, OK, we both come from this world of tactile mapping. So it's one form of inclusive cartography or inclusive um spatial data, spatial analysis and stuff, all that.
00:27:02
Speaker
But there are different types of inclusiveness. And it's not only you know physically based. So I'm not only talking about inclusiveness in terms of um cognition.
00:27:14
Speaker
right but also and ah and disabilities but also um racial educational uh national and cultural inclusiveness so i just wanted to do it advertise so if any of the listeners is into this field um and would like to connect with us and and share their work, on perhaps collaborate to just foster accessibility in spatial knowledge, let's put it that way, and cartography, then there we are.
00:27:47
Speaker
That's why I mentioned it because Vincent was mentioning these different types of disabilities that kind of can be faced in the research and and practice.
Applications of Tactile Maps
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah. ah Yes, for sure. I'll put the note in the in the show notes or the link in the show notes. um This part of the conversation has made me think of a question I probably should have asked towards the beginning, which is where do these sorts of projects, where do you see them implemented or exhibited or shown? I mean, I can think about, for example, like a science museum or a children's museum to me seems like a pretty obvious place where they would be you know installed. But where have you seen these sorts of things that presented where people can actually use them.
00:28:32
Speaker
and So, um, I think like like you mentioned the, the, the public spaces, so, uh, train, uh, stations or museums, but also there is quite some interest from persons themselves because they want to know if they travel somewhere, well, what, what will I meet in the book? For instance, there's a very nice story from bar hump.
00:28:57
Speaker
Param is a an exp expert. He's very well skilled and and he likes traveling, likes challenges. But when he had had to had first had to go for a medical examination in another town, he went there and because he didn't know the surroundings, well, he ended up in a place he didn't want to be in.
00:29:18
Speaker
That's my spoiler alert. So I won't go into the details there, but I think that is it the punchline of the story is you need to know your surroundings. So if you're traveling somewhere, you need to know how how the yeah how your surroundings look.
00:29:36
Speaker
And of course, we do have our our cell phones with NetApps. And they are very well suited to bring you from to B, from doorstep to doorstep. And if you walk the wrong way, it it will also correct you.
00:29:52
Speaker
But it's only... giving you ah guidance to to get there, but it doesn't show you way where you are or if there is a bookshop just to two houses away from you or well, etc. you you You can feel it.
00:30:12
Speaker
And I think that's also the the why why these maps are also important because they give you an impression of your neighbourhood. They can also give you an impression to understand the the news better.
00:30:26
Speaker
um For instance, the eight o'clock news and if there are some political tensions or if you are going on a holiday, how's the layout of the country or well whatever. if and And that's also where where these maps are very important.
00:30:44
Speaker
very suitable. So yeah, it's public spaces, it's personal interest, and of course, in the education and domain. So yeah people need to learn topography in schools, right but also need to learn topography to understand history or, well, you know,
00:31:02
Speaker
yeah we We can go on and on with Napshot everywhere. It's very important to mention that da you know the curricula for children with visual impairments, they're pretty often the same as for the sighted children.
00:31:19
Speaker
Whereas there's no materials like to to convey the information, right? You're learning about, i don't know, mineral resources that are in your country. Perfect.
00:31:29
Speaker
But there are no maps for those children, right? So obviously somebody can explain it, but still it's not the same. An image is worth a thousand words and stuff like that.
00:31:42
Speaker
So it's even more true for maps, I think. Yeah. So, so to that point, then how do you think people can think about scaling this kind of work? Um,
00:31:53
Speaker
Not everybody is you know running a science museum or teaching in an elementary school. I mean, do these sort of tactile maps, do they um do they scale or are they more custom for a specific use case in a specific place?
Incorporating Tactile Mapping in Data Work
00:32:10
Speaker
so So really, i guess the question is for people who listen to the show, who tend to be working with data, creating data visualizations on their computer, um and they may want to either expand their their skills, their toolkit, or the people that they work with, how do they think about implementing or scaling this work into their own, this, this approach into their own work?
00:32:35
Speaker
Well, it's not to advocate my own work, but for instance, what we did in in the tactile mapping the ditch that come uppping ah project, we we created a online repository where people can download the styles. e And we also created a tutorial online, just a sort one on on one course.
00:32:59
Speaker
of course and to to learn some basic principles to get some hands-on experience with ah producing tactile maps and it's just only the the first steps but Jakob is also working on online in a project and to make and more material available so and maybe Jakob can explain a bit a little bit about this Yeah.
00:33:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as Vincent said, ah we're now running a project that is called TREP. So it's going to be tactile graphics knowledge repository. And one of the parts of the project is to actually launch a platform online website where, you know, because as you as he had, like Vincent and his team, they they put all the styles on the website.
00:33:48
Speaker
But how can a person from the US know about it? right That there is something, you know there's no need to reinvent the wheel. So the idea is to to create a platform and there is not such platform yet.
00:34:01
Speaker
um but Where practitioners, researchers, map makers, draft makers, um they can put all their knowledge they want to share in one place and just We don't want to you know um create a place where there will be one one and only guideline on how to make a good map. No, you just there are just different guidelines, best practices, styles, examples, case studies.
00:34:27
Speaker
And you can play around with these and tweak them to your needs, whether it's a bespoke map for ah for a child next door who wants to have a map of his route to the school.
00:34:41
Speaker
printed on swell paper or you want to launch a mass production of tiger rainbow's materials for a local science center or you want a highly sophisticated 3d model with audio feedback uh of the of the of the university campus right so it's just de the the The knowledge will be there.
00:35:02
Speaker
yeah There will be contacts to people who... That was actually a suggestion form from from one of the one of the people that we asked about this platform when we were trying to think of what we should put there. And he said, you know, you you guys should actually put a list of addresses of people who actually make these graphics.
00:35:20
Speaker
You know, because as you said, when there's someone who's making a data visualization, they obviously might not have a toilet paper fuser to just to just to just make traffic himself or herself or a printer, but they can ask somebody else to actually make it.
00:35:39
Speaker
And And it's also worth mentioning that you know many people with visual impairments themselves, they're really curious and they actually make their models themselves.
Empowerment through Personal Tactile Maps
00:35:50
Speaker
So i already met a number of people, which might be surprising to to many of our listeners. They design their own 3D models and they 3D print them with success.
00:36:02
Speaker
yeah So they just do this parametric modeling, which is crazy. i cannot think of it. like no Obviously, I'm living in a visual world. So it's just hard to think of it.
00:36:13
Speaker
And then they operate the printers. They don't even have touch screens. they're They don't have audio feedback, but they're just pretty simple devices. Obviously, they're getting burned from time to time when using the 3D printers, but still, they're successful. And it's just and it's just crazy.
00:36:30
Speaker
ah yeah And we really have to think you know of of all the people with special needs. They they basically their needs are more or less the same in terms of what they want from the modern world, right? we We're living in the information era and they want to take advantage of it as well. As Vincent said, so you're watching news, right? You you see what is going on. Those people would like to know it as well.
00:36:56
Speaker
yeah So maybe it's ah it's not always, it not necessarily always have to be, um you know, um a physical map or a physical data visualization, but maybe just an alternative text that will explain it better on on the website.
00:37:13
Speaker
Say, yeah okay, so listen, there's a bar chart showing this and there are this data and this is bigger than the other and stuff like that.
00:37:24
Speaker
Yeah. To close us up, I want to come back to the book directly. um Did you have a favorite project or favorite chapter out of this book?
00:37:35
Speaker
Not to put ah ah to say that the others weren't good, but just to say, like was there a project? And it could be yours, but like was there was there one of these that really like struck you?
00:37:46
Speaker
was like, oh, that's that that's smart. That's good. Well, of course, I'm now obliged to say Polish project was very, very, very special because it's a young man. That wasn't planned. That wasn't planned.
00:38:02
Speaker
Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah. yeah but bus Well, and in terms of the project, what what I really liked almost was also the project from Asna.
00:38:14
Speaker
She's she from Kurdistan. And actually, Asna did her master's and PhD also in in the realm of tactile mapping. And then she returned to Kurdistan and there's an Institute of the Blind there.
00:38:29
Speaker
But actually, there is nothing. And then she came back and then she's she just started working on on the on on that project and just started designing yeah tactile maps.
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah. right yeah step by step introducing yeah blind students into into the world of geography. I thought, well, it's nothing sophisticated, but in terms of creativit creativity and in terms of keeping people's hands and making people more part of society, it's really sophisticated. And and that's what that's what I really liked.
00:39:06
Speaker
yeah I think besides that, I also really liked the personal stories of the people. And also what I really liked from the personal stories is people with visual impairments, they do have a challenge, just like you and I, we also have our challenges.
00:39:27
Speaker
Right. But they are also... Despite their visual challenge, they are also curious. They want to know, they want to learn, they want to travel, they want to ah spend time with the family.
00:39:40
Speaker
So they have visual difficulties. doesn't make a difference from you and me. Right, from the rest of us. Yeah, that that was, ah yeah so to say, an eye opener for me because ah before this project, I wasn't that involved with people who are blind because, yeah, many people can see. that's Right.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah, and and I was so surprised and and amazed by how creative people can be in in in and what they do and and also in what they want to achieve despite their yeah the challenges. So that that's i what I liked most. So yeah, it's up to you, Jakob.
00:40:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I fully agree. You know, it's just ah it it it was also interesting in the very beginning when I first started meeting people with your impairments, you know, I was like a bit intimidated.
00:40:36
Speaker
How do I approach them? How do you talk to them? What's the etiquette? And and that The truth is, you actually act normal. you know it's just you you use ah i was I was thinking, should I say see you later?
00:40:52
Speaker
And yes, you should say it It's just the way it is. you know They might need some assistance, obviously. um It might require more time to do something.
00:41:02
Speaker
But still, they're just capable people. um Many of these people, which... ah we shot you know, bothers me a bit is that they don't have these opportunities. They're living in small towns where there's accessible libraries or stuff like this. So we always have to keep in mind that, you know, we're talking like the people that took part in our studies, even though we try to invite them from all over the country.
00:41:31
Speaker
Many of these, they're well rehabilitated people ah that are able to read maps because they took this formal education and stuff, but there's a lot of other people who are not even aware that these solutions exist. So it's not only about making good maps, good visualization, but actually letting people know that they are here.
00:41:54
Speaker
So we did this project that Vincent mentioned. We we did maps of historic parks and gardens, and these are educational maps, not for orientation. It's about explaining what are the different garden styles and stuff.
00:42:05
Speaker
and staff we And we really forced ah you know the administration administrators of the parts to to to put the information their websites. You know, guys, listen, we have these maps.
00:42:16
Speaker
Please come visit us. We're accessible. And not all of them complied with it. So that was that's a bit sad. But ah other than that, the the story.
00:42:27
Speaker
He asked about yeah the project. Well, it's actually one of the projects i would say it was described in the personal story by Pat, but I could call it from Czechia, but I can call it a project because he's a great fan of railway.
00:42:41
Speaker
And he was really interesting about how do the railroad system in Europe works. So we he asked his friend to help him. developed this map and and and once ah they they put it together, they printed it and then Pest was so surprised that some of the places, you know, like tea there there are there in the stories the the ex exact details, but yeah not until he actually had the map and could see it all together was that we realized that there are some
00:43:15
Speaker
interesting facts about railway network in Europe, especially ah in Slovenia and in Italy. That was the case that he was describing. So it's as Vincent i as vin said, it's really great to see to see the level of passion that these people have and they just want to to live their life basically. Right, right.
00:43:38
Speaker
um Well, it's great. I really enjoyed the book. I learned a
Conclusion and Further Exploration
00:43:41
Speaker
lot. Just to wrap up. um So you mentioned the working group on tactile cartography. ah You mentioned the TGREP project that you're working on and also this online tutorial that people can use.
00:43:52
Speaker
um And I'll put links to at least two of those on the on the show notes. Is there any way else or how should people reach out to you if there are other if they have other questions or project ideas? Like how should they how should they get in touch?
00:44:07
Speaker
So it's just a small correction. It's inclusive cartography, not tactile cartography. We want to go broader. So that's the idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's it.
00:44:18
Speaker
Great. um I'll put those links. But um if they have questions for each of you, I'm sure they can find you on on the department websites and and so on. um Anything else? Any other projects or sites that people are interested in this sort of work should should think about, you know, reaching out to and and connecting with?
00:44:36
Speaker
um I think if people are into ah spatial data visualization in general, they could take a look at the International Cartographic Association website. There are other commissions, other working groups.
00:44:50
Speaker
There's a commission on user experience, so they might be interested in that one. Geovisualization, lots of that I will make the names of, so I'm not trying to to to repeat them.
00:45:04
Speaker
Yeah, well, they can they can start with this working group of inclusive cartography. Sounds like a great start. And then folks can go from there. Vincent, Jakob, thanks so much for coming on the show.
00:45:15
Speaker
Really enjoyed the book and really enjoyed the conversation. So thanks for taking the time out of your day to hang out with. You're welcome. Thank you. Have a good one and enjoy your weekend.
00:45:27
Speaker
Thanks everyone for tuning into the show. Hope you enjoyed that. Hope you'll check out the book. I put a bunch of links in the show notes to this week's episode so you can check out all the resources that Vincent and Jakob mentioned.
00:45:38
Speaker
So again, until next time, this has been the Policy of His podcast. Thanks so much for listening.