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00:00:01
A Very Special Guest...
61 Plays8 days ago
Andrew, a father of two and lifelong gamer, teams up with Brandon, a consumer psychologist and ex-pro video game coach, to cover video games, the way they are designed and how these design decisions impact the children that play them.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Dopamine Slot Machine Podcast
00:00:11
Andrew Wilmot
Good morning, good day, good evening. Whenever you are, welcome to the Dopamine Slot Machine, the podcast that discusses what you need to know about the video games that your children are
Understanding Video Games' Impact on Children
00:00:20
Andrew Wilmot
playing. How are they designed to get your kids hooked?
00:00:22
Andrew Wilmot
How do they make money from your children? And what can you do to make sure that your child's relationship with video games is a positive one?
Introducing Anna - A Special Guest
00:00:29
Andrew Wilmot
My name is Andrew. I'm a dad of two and a lifelong gamer. And this week we've actually got the first of hopefully many special guests, but this is absolutely going to be, at least from my very biased perspective, the most special of the special guests.
00:00:46
Andrew Wilmot
This is the person that i i first started talking to about addictive design and my concerns with it. The person I first started talking to about smartphone-free child. In fact, This was the first person I spoke to about the podcast entirely. So before even the first episode was released, we were talking about what it is we wanted to achieve, what we wanted to do. And so after many months of cajoling, convincing, we finally got her on the
Anna's Gaming Background and Preferences
00:01:11
Andrew Wilmot
podcast. It is indeed Anna, my wonderful fiancé and mother to our two beautiful children.
00:01:18
Andrew Wilmot
So Anna, tell us a little bit about yourself and you maybe a little bit about your history with video games in particular and smartphone free childhood in general. Hey, I'm Anna. I'm a mum of two.
00:01:31
Andrew Wilmot
I work in tech. Surprise there. History with video games. I think from both of us, really, you are the most video game oriented one, I would say. You have most experience with it.
00:01:47
Andrew Wilmot
I mean, I obviously grew up with a PC and PC gaming was a thing when I was small. Not so much consoles. I mean, I did grow up in Romania. So at the time, these kind of things were not as readily available.
00:02:02
Andrew Wilmot
But to be honest with you, I wasn't necessarily into any sort of action-y type. of video games, anything with violence, I would definitely kept to kept to the the dress up situation. was going to say the sort of dress up mini clip games.
00:02:17
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, absolutely. So anything i anything i i didn't want to stress about shooting anyone. I didn't want to complete any puzzles. All I wanted to was, you know, dress up dolls,
00:02:29
Andrew Wilmot
put glitter on nails and, you know, makeup on like these dolls as well.
Smartphone-Free Childhood and Screen Time Concerns
00:02:36
Andrew Wilmot
And then later on, when the Sims kind of appeared around, was my go-to.
00:02:42
Andrew Wilmot
think that kind of remained my go-to up until like very recently. yeah, who doesn't enjoy a bit of Sims? So again, just making up characters, building the houses, not so much actually playing the game,
00:02:56
Andrew Wilmot
Sort of treating it as like, just dress up more. Yeah. Everything. Yeah, exactly. It was just create your own character over and over and over. So that was my jam.
00:03:06
Andrew Wilmot
And then in the pandemic, you saw everybody else playing Animal Crossing. And I thought is very much up my alley of, you know, tending to your farm, your jobs and chores.
00:03:17
Andrew Wilmot
Pretty relaxed game with fun outfits and fun customization. So, yeah, I'm not the kind of gamer. I'm not a very prolific gamer, but I've had my fair share.
00:03:30
Andrew Wilmot
But it was actually, i i think your influence that first got me interested in firstly, smartphone free childhood and should we be giving kids smartphones in the first place?
00:03:43
Andrew Wilmot
But then the sort of intersection with that and my history and knowledge about gaming and the way things are built. Because it was you who first made me aware of smartphone free childhood and you've been following, was it Papaya parents for years?
00:03:59
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, so it's interesting that I think the way, be honest, there there there's multiple parts to this, but the way we kind of, the way that I kind of fell into this really was when, you know, our eldest was young and becoming parents for the first time, obviously, learn a lot about play and you learn a lot about, you know, your toddler is developing with, you know, messy play and, you know, hand-to-eye coordination and all that stuff and very much like the Montessori way of play.
00:04:34
Andrew Wilmot
And playing and making the most of, like, imaginative play and kind of building on that kind of pushed me to... Not that I got anti-screen. That is definitely not what it is, but I definitely...
00:04:51
Andrew Wilmot
pushed me to go, we'll minimize screens and focus on the important bits where you actually live in childhood and touching things, touching grass, throwing some stones around, that kind of stuff.
00:05:03
Andrew Wilmot
And then I think also from of personal experiences seeing like the irritability that came with prolonged screen use, because let's be honest,
00:05:12
Andrew Wilmot
live in the UK and we all have times where, you know, we just need the children to watch a bit of TV. Sometimes it might be that we're ill and we just don't have another option. So think when I really noticed it in our eldest was...
00:05:28
Andrew Wilmot
during COVID and then seeing the difference between shows like Coco Melon or Marsha and the Bear was another one another one which I remember us both sort of looking at each other and thinking what on earth is this so intense compared to more relaxed shows yeah is another thing that we kind of like looked at the content that I think we made a real effort to also consume the content and kind of vet it a bit.
Contrasting Gaming Experiences
00:05:56
Andrew Wilmot
I have reviewed every single Cocomelon episode. I'm kidding. But yeah, I think we definitely fell in an agreement where the stuff that was incredibly fast paced and very neurotic was not producing anything.
00:06:13
Andrew Wilmot
you know, wasn't having great effects. there's no wonder about that, right? Especially in very young children that quite, don't quite have the process, you know, the emotional processing of that. And they just kind of let it out in a physical way. They don't really have the language to express how they feel. So yeah, I think that's when we made a conscious decision to kind of keep TV to, you know,
00:06:39
Andrew Wilmot
a minimum and also to high quality content. So we've actually played some video games together as well. Yes. And coming from very different backgrounds and different approaches to gaming, how has, from your your background, whale very casual, very relaxed, slow-paced, then meeting with me i was always very interested in achievement based gaming. Let's go beat this game. Let's go complete this story. Let's finish this quest.
00:07:12
Andrew Wilmot
How have you found that as an experience? We definitely have very different experiences when it comes to the effect of gaming. Okay, so for context, I also enjoy and I partake in this willingly, you know, play some co-op games. you know, mostly puzzle games, we're not doing anything way too intense, but as part of the game story sometimes where we're playing this co-op game, you know, there'll be some more intense moments, moments where you like it need to perform and you are time bound.
00:07:41
Andrew Wilmot
You need to get that jump at that specific time. Otherwise, you know, you fall in. And I think, you know, we fell into the co-op games because it was COVID.
00:07:52
Andrew Wilmot
Obviously, after the kids went to bed, everyone was stuck between the same four walls, really. would perhaps less described it as we fell into co-op games and more I pushed you off into them.
00:08:03
Andrew Wilmot
Okay, but I was receptive. I think it's something that we kind of got into as a bit of a routine because there there was not much to do. And that was, you know, one outlet that we had after the kids have gone to bed.
00:08:16
Andrew Wilmot
But definitely the experience, like you describe gaming as something that is very relaxing. You get that sense of achievement once you complete the mission. however, I feel absolutely drained.
00:08:27
Andrew Wilmot
I like, and, you know, by no means we're not, we're not, playing anything horror, we're not playing anything that is know spooky or like, thriller-y in theme.
00:08:38
Andrew Wilmot
But to me, jumping from one platform to the other proves to be exhilarating enough to make me feel as if I've just ran an emotional marathon. There's a game we've been playing recently called Split Fiction, and I absolutely love it.
00:08:52
Andrew Wilmot
You tell me you love it. i think so. It's a great game, and it's a great storyline. However, like the effect, even though I'm enjoying it and I willingly want to play it, I am left very emotionally drained after.
00:09:05
Andrew Wilmot
The game show quest. There was one specific side quest in it where you've really got to like, you're passing this ball that will explode if you don't pass it quickly enough back and forth whilst trying to get to the end of this platforming section.
00:09:21
Andrew Wilmot
And I don't think I've ever seen you so stressed. Yeah, and this is what, like, for me has a big, like, impact on me. Like, my heart rate is going.
00:09:32
Andrew Wilmot
I am left exhausted
Concerns Over Inappropriate Content in Games
00:09:33
Andrew Wilmot
after it. So I can't help but think of, you know, children that are playing not games, like, just games that are achievement-based in general and, you know, their frustration might come out, you know, into the outer world. So, you know, you always hear about, you know, children that lose a game and then they throw the controller out of frustration know, children that lose a game and then, you know, eventually the time is up on the PlayStation and they have to come off and, you know, they're in a foul mood all day.
00:10:06
Andrew Wilmot
think i that's another thing that just kind of makes me weary is, you know, we think of this online world that is technically easy to leave behind, but actually how much of that online world do you carry out, know,
00:10:20
Andrew Wilmot
with you into the outer world. There's an emotional stickiness to it. Yes, absolutely. would It would really suck to have our eldest come off a game and feel the whole day has been ruined because something didn't go quite right.
00:10:39
Andrew Wilmot
So we do agree on a lot of things, video games. I mean, no online games, no microtransactions. Trying to be careful with the sort of content. But what are some things that that we disagree on regarding video games and specifically as it pertains to children?
00:10:57
Andrew Wilmot
I can think of one big one. Go on. So there was a game that recently got re-released for the PlayStation, and it was a game that I played a a lot as a kid, I've got very fond memories of.
00:11:10
Andrew Wilmot
It's a game called TimeSplitters, and it's a cartoony shooting game, first-person shooting game. And I suggested playing this with my oldest, and you're like, absolutely not.
00:11:24
Andrew Wilmot
It's a first-person shooting game. Nope, not having it. And I'd be interested to hear a little bit more about As I've grown older, I've realised a lot more about how... I feel a lot more weary about the disincentives...
00:11:43
Andrew Wilmot
desensitisation desensitisation very good thank you of certain things so I remember as this just to give an example as a child well not as a child as like ah an early teen you know when you would sneak off and watch a horror that is obviously know way above your age rating and you would not even an eyelid at the very gruesome scenes that portrayed.
00:12:11
Andrew Wilmot
However, if your mum and dad were watching the same thing, they would be absolutely horrified. can't say I empathise there. dad if you're listening, it was very questionable to give three-year-old me doom in Duke Nukem.
00:12:25
Andrew Wilmot
So it's definitely something as as a teen and child, or who cares? This is obviously fake. I don't feel very like affected. But that also kind of plays into the, you know, if you're exposed enough times, you become desensitized.
00:12:38
Andrew Wilmot
And to me, you know, look at guns and even for me, like physical toy guns, I know this is maybe a bit silly, but I'm just like, we're looking at this and we're using it as as a play instrument and it's actually just a gun.
00:12:53
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, like we know what this is meant for. I'm just not in agreement with the shooting element there and the weapon usage.
00:13:04
Andrew Wilmot
I suppose I'm naturally quite sensitive, from my own awareness, to addictive design. But then perhaps due to that very same desensitisation you're talking about, completely overlooked.
00:13:16
Andrew Wilmot
the sort of content side of things. I don't mean in the sense of, oh, yeah, you know, sex, nudity, and super adult themes. Yeah, that's fine for kids. i don't mean it in that sort of sense. so But as you're saying, like with, you know, use of weaponry, I would never even cross my mind that that could be concern. But actually, ah
Challenges of Raising Smartphone-Free Children
00:13:35
Andrew Wilmot
probably to a lot of listeners, that's exactly the sort of thing that they do worry about.
00:13:40
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, I mean, like, we have enough horrible stories in the news about, you know, especially in the US, s children children finding, and I know there's a lot of, like, precursors to this, but I think that also doesn't help the gun violence rhetoric.
00:13:58
Andrew Wilmot
Okay. So... What's something that since we've started looking at this a lot more consciously, what's something that's shocked you the most once we started looking to the way video games are designed and children's relationship with video games?
00:14:12
Andrew Wilmot
I think so. I was never really interested in gambling. I've never really, I think the furthest I've gone into gambling have been like, you know, know, a lottery ticket and a scratch card that have, you know, somehow ended up in front of me as a, you know, like a Christmas thing that someone's did.
00:14:28
Andrew Wilmot
Like I've never consciously gone and purchased a scratch card. But so my gambling exposure and, you know, knowledge of gambling concepts was fairly limited um you know, you've kind of exposed that to me.
00:14:42
Andrew Wilmot
And you kind of said, hey, like, look at the similarities between these two things. then obviously doing, seeing you do deep dives on Roblox and having a look at what's out there.
00:14:56
Andrew Wilmot
It's, It's crazy. Gambling is a real issue for consenting adults who are able to emotionally regulate.
00:15:05
Andrew Wilmot
It's so easy to fall down that spiral and you before you know it, you could lose your house. like like Children that have absolutely no emotional regulation stand no chance in front of these.
00:15:20
Andrew Wilmot
I remember after I did that first... sort of investigative session with Brandon on Roblox and I'd come across the sad room, a set of literal casino games where you a few points for free but then if you want to keep playing it then starts prompting you over and over to pay for these points with Robux.
00:15:43
Andrew Wilmot
I was really shaken and just showing you some of the screenshots from it that I had taken. Yeah, I think this is it. This is...
00:15:52
Andrew Wilmot
Another concept that is crazy is, I think this is something that we definitely didn't have when we were growing up. And I think, you know, we were a pretty online generation. Like we were a bit the cowboys of the online world, first experiencing a lot of, ah you know, weird stuff on the internet.
00:16:12
Andrew Wilmot
but I think we didn't have the issue of worrying about spending money that time on the internet. Whereas now everything is paid to unlock, hit here to have more fun. you know, I think children nowadays are very desensitized to the fact that they have to spend real money in form of coins or tokens or bucks or whatever it may be.
00:16:35
Andrew Wilmot
transacting as on the internet and again just losing real sense of the value of that hard earned money that the parents are working for it's crazy What's been the hardest thing from your perspective about being a parent who wants their children to have smartphone free childhoods?
00:16:57
Andrew Wilmot
It's definitely been is the peer pressure isn't it and not in the terms of you know, not being able to of sustain our point or like, you know, talk to our children about it and why we're doing this and why we're committed.
00:17:14
Andrew Wilmot
There's definitely lot of support out there. I feel like the smartphone-free childhood community is very supportive of one another and, know, it's flourishing. More and more people are realising this is an issue and they are committing to this.
00:17:28
Andrew Wilmot
I think the biggest thing is, and I think... this is what other parents are also concerned about is your children not feeling left out of something that is basically ruling their generation.
00:17:44
Andrew Wilmot
and you know, as they grow up and and push boundaries, like, you know, you, I don't think you, you ever really want them to feel like they're really missing out.
00:17:54
Andrew Wilmot
Uh, but you know why on this occasion they are missing out. So it's really hard to sometimes convey that message over and over and, you know, sometimes reach that agreement when, you know, many people in the class are, you know, accessing this. And what we find as well is a lot of the, our daughter, even though she doesn't have ah access to this, um this, um she, her classmates tell her about the kind of content that they access.
00:18:25
Andrew Wilmot
you know, It's just terrifying. It's kind of like analog. So when she comes home and is like, oh, what's a gat?
00:18:34
Andrew Wilmot
And for our listeners who may not be aware, gat is very sexualized lingo for a bum.
00:18:45
Andrew Wilmot
Specifically, an attractive bum. Yeah, it's like the BBL of the Gen Z. Yeah. And so for our seven-year-old daughter to be like, what's a ghat? Why are the girls in the class talking about having a ghat?
00:19:00
Andrew Wilmot
And being like, one, you shouldn't be exposed to that sort of language language anyway. And two, you shouldn't feel so left out because you don't know what it is just because other girls in your class have unrestricted smart device use.
00:19:16
Andrew Wilmot
Absolutely. So... Yeah, we find that the analogue transfer happens quite a bit as well. So even though from a household perspective, we have things locked down and we don't have access to lot of these things, you know, it doesn't take much to go consume it at school.
00:19:34
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, it's frankly, does start to become our business, what other parents, what choices other parents are making with their children when it starts to impact our children.
00:19:46
Andrew Wilmot
It's all very well saying, oh, you know, if you don't want kids to have a... The Roblox CEO, when he was saying, oh, if you don't like Roblox, just don't let your kids use it.
00:19:56
Andrew Wilmot
I'm like, yeah, that's fine and all, but there's wider implications for what they're doing here. The from the societal impacts of introducing gambling at such a young age to the productivity consequences that you're going to from having people who are just unable to focus to, yeah, the fact that our kids are indirectly exposed to all of this.
00:20:23
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, I think as well with, obviously I mentioned earlier, we are kind of the cowboys of the internet. in our teams and just very unregulated just very unregulated i i think certain households very similar to now suffered from the I'm not quite sure what's available online it's the lack of knowledge and understanding of what is happening behind the screen sometimes and obviously more parents that would be more aware and be more technologically savvy would have you know
00:20:54
Andrew Wilmot
ah ah parenting controls in place but you know mine weren't they had no idea so i was very much free to roam the internet the full extent of it and you know even when i was 12 13 that was a very horrifying place to be And I think it's even got, it's got even more horrifying. So instead of being in front of desktop now, you have that following you in your pocket.
00:21:22
Andrew Wilmot
So yeah. yeah It used used to be the case that if you saw something online that upsets you, you could step away. It's with you everywhere.
Reflections on Technology and Youth
00:21:28
Andrew Wilmot
But even then, mean, think part of my weariness of,
00:21:32
Andrew Wilmot
letting any of our kids online is part of the things I've been exposed to online an early age. And again, mostly just not, you know, you're not seeking it actively. You just kind of stumble upon it.
00:21:45
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah. So just just listeners sake to to a number on that age, we were both 12 when the iPhone was released. So we both saw that sort of before and after of that cataclysmic event that was the first few years of smartphones.
00:22:01
Andrew Wilmot
So don't know if you, like me, had the MSN on the computer that you'd get back home to to message your mates on, but we saw it go from... the group chat going from a place you went to, to something that was with you always. And we felt that impact very quickly.
00:22:17
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah. I mean, think as soon as not even like this, okay, smartphones started kind of rolling out for my friend group. sort of like 16 17, you know, age group kind of thing.
00:22:33
Andrew Wilmot
But prior to that, you had that wave of everyone had BlackBerry phone. And that was, i i think, that the gateway to that because you had BBM, BlackBerry Messenger.
00:22:45
Andrew Wilmot
So you could message for free with a lot of the other BlackBerry users. So I think that was the starting point of having my friend readily available to message all day, every day. And I remember, you know, every, everyone having a BlackBerry at that point.
Advocating for Creative Gaming Environments
00:23:03
Andrew Wilmot
Okay. I've got one last question for you today because we're, we're rapidly running out of time. And that's, if you had a magic wand, and there's one thing you could change about children's video games, or the video games that children play in general, or anything related to those sorts of topics, what would it be?
00:23:25
Andrew Wilmot
sot Can I ask for more wishes? Ask for more wishes.
00:23:32
Andrew Wilmot
I think if I was to choose my final thing would be that children's games are a lot more focused on like a relaxing content and more like a leading into like a creative side rather than a you know competitive or you know gambly sort of thing so I feel like it would be It would be a better world if we could all just make up some sims, ah paint some nails and you know play Minecraft in creative mode. we We nearly had a whole episode without talking about how great Minecraft is in comparison to other games. We nearly did it! Sorry to ruin the streak.
00:24:11
Andrew Wilmot
that that time Yes, thank you so much for coming
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:24:14
Andrew Wilmot
along. Thank you for finally joining for an episode. It's been awesome having you on. Thank you for having me. Not quite the broadcaster that you are, but hopefully enjoyed that. i I think you're an actual.
00:24:24
Andrew Wilmot
But yeah, so don't forget that if you've got any questions for us or if you or your children have been impacted by the issues we've discussed today, that you can get in touch with us on our website, the DopamineSlotMachine.co.uk or find us on the Dopamine Slot Machine Discussion Corner a Facebook group.
00:24:38
Andrew Wilmot
All links can be found in our artist profile and we would love to have you join us. That's all we have time for today. Thank you so much for joining. Please do come with us again in next week's episode, where again, I've got a very exciting guest lined up and I'm very excited to speak with them on it.
00:24:53
Andrew Wilmot
And I'm sure that you'll have as much fun as I will then. I can't, I don't want to tell you yet. it to be a surprise, they are somebody that, again, I've been admiring the work they've been doing for a while.
00:25:07
Andrew Wilmot
This has been the Dopamine Slot Machine. Thank you and see you soon.