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Episode 13: Women's leadership
55 Plays12 days ago
In the final episode of Talking Transformation for 2025/26, host Fiona Lennoxsmith and guests explore what genuine investment in women's leadership demands of higher education.
Guests Charlotte Rutter (Glasgow Caledonian University), Yulia Sobol (British Council Ukraine) and Barbara Bassa (Advance HE) argue that the goal is not simply to help women adapt to existing hierarchies, but to redesign leadership itself around empathy, collaboration and authenticity. Sobol describes a new Advance HE/British Council programme launching in Ukraine this September, built for women leading universities through wartime disruption. The panel agrees that lasting culture change, not just improved representation, is the real measure of progress.
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Transcript
Introduction to Women's Leadership: Beyond Empowerment
00:00:14
Speaker
So hello everyone and welcome to Talking Transformation. I'm Fiona Lennox-Smith and today we're going to be talking about women's leadership and what we're trying to achieve when we're investing and thinking about women's leadership.
00:00:30
Speaker
The answer I think is going to go well beyond empowering women um and it's going to take us into questions about how we understand and value leadership as it's enacted by everyone in our organisations and communities.
00:00:44
Speaker
um We're going to be thinking about how we challenge assumptions around power and success and how we create opportunities to rethink our leadership systems that will embed inclusion for everyone.
Meet the Advocates: Charlotte, Yulia, and Barbara
00:00:57
Speaker
And I'm delighted and really excited to be joined by three passionate supporters of female leadership in higher education. So we have Charlotte Rutter, who is a senior fellow of Advance HE and associate professor in educational leadership and innovation, as well as assistant head of academic operations for Glasgow Caledonian University's London campus.
00:01:23
Speaker
She's completed our Aurora and our senior women's leadership programs, and she's an Aurora champion too. So welcome, Charlotte. Thank you. Great.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yulia Sobol is the Head of Education for British Council in Ukraine who are currently partnering with Advance HE to develop a large-scale program to support women's progression in higher education.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yulia, thank you so much for being with us today. and Thank you for inviting me. That's great. And Barbara Bassah, who may need very little introduction for many of you, is Advance HE Senior Consultant for Women in Leadership.
00:02:06
Speaker
and Program Director for Aurora and our suite of women's leadership programs. So welcome, Barbara. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm delighted that you are doing this podcast.
00:02:18
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you all
Charlotte Rutter's Leadership Journey
00:02:20
Speaker
for coming. So let's start by understanding a little bit more about why a women's leadership is important to you.
00:02:29
Speaker
um So can you tell me about your journeys into women's leadership? And Charlotte, I'm going to come to you first, if that's OK. Of course. Thank you. I'm really excited about partaking in this podcast today and looking forward to the conversation.
00:02:43
Speaker
um I came to Aurora and followed by the Senior Women's Leadership Programme while I was Deputy Director at a previous university and institute.
00:02:54
Speaker
And during it was really during a period of personal change, but also say institutional change. And both of these programmes gave me the space to lead through through it and a more strategic and and also understanding my own terms and conditions within that.
00:03:10
Speaker
And that's kind of the how I arrived today, taking all of those lessons and experiences from those programmes. And then now being an Aurora champion helps me support and mentor and still be part of such a fantastic community of female leaders.
00:03:27
Speaker
And why it's really important to me is is it's something that we're an an opportunity within the sector of so much change and the opportunity to implement and change the structural and the design.
00:03:44
Speaker
ah After our conversation yesterday, I kept coming back to the word design. It's a design challenge. It's a design issue. And how do we design institutes and and change the the conversation?
00:03:56
Speaker
to implement a ah more holistic approach to leadership and collaboration, which I know we'll be talking about that further later on in the podcast. But for me, that is absolutely, i don't want to empower the activist element of female leadership. I just want to empower leadership within an organisation. And part of that is being part of such a strong community of women leaders.
00:04:27
Speaker
Fantastic. So lots I heard there about that sort of personal leadership journey, the structural elements of leadership and how we can how we can challenge those to make things better for everyone in higher education.
00:04:44
Speaker
um Fantastic. Thank you very much.
Yulia Sobol on Gender Disparities in Ukrainian Academia
00:04:47
Speaker
Yulia, tell us about your journey into women's leadership and why it's important to you. um I came to women's leadership through my work in higher education with the British Council.
00:05:00
Speaker
For many years, I worked closely with universities across Ukraine on leadership development, international partnerships and institutional capacity building. And through that work, I began noticing something that was difficult to ignore. women make up the majority of academic staff at Ukrainian universities. They are around 56% of academic staff. They are researchers, lecturers, department heads, and they contribute enormously to teaching research and university life.
00:05:30
Speaker
Yet when you look at the most senior leadership positions, the picture changes dramatically. Only around 32% pro-vice chancellors are women and only about are vice chancellors. So the issue isn't the lack of talent or skills or expertise. It's about how leadership is recognized and what barriers still exist within institutions.
00:05:53
Speaker
And with the full scale war that we have in Ukraine now, um and More challenges added to that. So universities had to respond to extra extraordinary uncertainty, like relocating campuses, supporting displaced students and staff, maintaining teaching under incredibly difficult circumstances.
00:06:16
Speaker
And ah during this period, we've seen many women step into senior leadership roles and lead with remarkable adaptability, with empathy and resilience. And these are qualities that became essential during the war.
00:06:31
Speaker
But what happens when this war ends? And because we know that such moments are of disruption, they can create opportunities, but they don't automatically lead to lasting change.
00:06:43
Speaker
There is always a risk that organizations revert to previous patterns unless the systems and cultures are changed. And and that's why women leadership women's leadership has become very important to me.
00:07:00
Speaker
It's not ah just because I believe that leadership should belong to man rather than and to women rather than men, but it's because I believe that universities perform so much better when there are when they recognize this full range of skills of potential that they they have.
00:07:17
Speaker
And so together with Advanced UCHE we have developed a leadership program for senior women in higher education. We have put a lot of effort to adapt it to Ukrainian context and we'll be launching this program in September.
00:07:32
Speaker
ah The program is about creating a network of strong ah women leaders at at universities that can influence their institutions, that can create institutions where leadership is accessible, it's inclusive, and when where leadership is recognized in different forms, not just through formal authority, but where leadership is about bringing people together on a shared purpose. And that's what makes me so much interested in this work. And I believe that it will have a big influence on the universities that we have in Ukraine.
00:08:14
Speaker
Fantastic. So one of the things that I heard there, and I think I heard from Charlotte as well, is that how we think about leadership and how we bring everyone together in leadership is really about change and how we change our institutions.
00:08:29
Speaker
Whether or not we have a choice in that change, the way we make that change really depends on how we see leadership and how we include both men and women leadership.
00:08:43
Speaker
those leadership um those leadership roles, positions and thinking as well. um So let's move to Barbara now and what's important to you and tell us about your journey as well into women's leadership.
Barbara Bassah: Gender Expectations and Leadership
00:08:58
Speaker
Thank you, Fiona. um It's very interesting where my journey into women's leadership is, I think, quite interesting because a lot of people assume that my interest in it began professionally, but actually it began much earlier.
00:09:14
Speaker
um I was born and raised in Poland. in a society where opportunities for women were still shaped by political systems, social expectations and to large extent religious beliefs and traditions. um And from quite a young age I became aware that women were often expected to adjust themselves to fit the world rather than the world making space for different ways of contributing and leading.
00:09:49
Speaker
Later, as I built my career in international consultancies, I found myself working predominantly in male environments. And again, i noticed this subtle or not so subtle expectation that success meant adapting to existing models of leadership. rather than bringing my own way of thinking, my own way of leading.
00:10:14
Speaker
And that curiosity stayed with me. So during my postgraduate studies in communication, I explored specifically how women and men operate differently in business and in organizations. And I became really fascinated by how particular styles of leadership become normalized.
00:10:37
Speaker
and how other remains mainly invisible. Moving into the UK and starting my ah work in higher education in 2007 opened a completely new dimension of this curiosity for me, really. Because here I was at home, you know, in higher education sector, it just felt instantly felt like home. Because I see universities as these amazing places that are... you know, shaping the knowledge, creating future generations and really having an opportunity to question, to ask deeper questions about how we lead, how we build organizational culture, how we develop human human beings.
00:11:29
Speaker
And through all of that, through all this journey, I started realizing that my work isn't really just about women. It's about expanding our understanding of leadership itself.
Balancing Leadership Qualities: Feminine and Masculine
00:11:43
Speaker
um And you will probably hear me in this podcast talking about feminine, masculine leadership, male, female leadership. But I'm not talking about biology here and I'm not talking about gender here. So I want to be very clear at the start.
00:12:00
Speaker
I'm talking about the qualities that exist in all of us, feminine and masculine qualities in all of us. And...
00:12:11
Speaker
What I'm noticing throughout my journey that traditionally organizations have this tendencies to reward qualities associated with the masculine.
00:12:23
Speaker
So clarity, analysis, decisiveness, competition, control, hierarchy. And I'm not saying they are good or bad. I think they're important.
00:12:35
Speaker
But I would like us to start inviting the conversation where we view equally valuable the qualities that are associated with feminine.
00:12:45
Speaker
So collaboration, empathy, intuition, deep listening, building relationships, system thinking, the ability to see the consequences of our ah decisions, how they impact the the wider sphere.
00:13:06
Speaker
and The future of leadership isn't really, as I see it, ah about choosing one over the other. i really deeply believe that we are currently invited to rethink, to integrate, to rebalance you know if we look at what's happening in the world, there is so much complexity, so much change, technological disruptions, geopolitical instability, environmental challenges, financial pressures.
00:13:38
Speaker
um And these aren't challenges that can be solved by any individual. These are the challenges that require different, div diverse leaders working together collaboratively, bringing their courage, bringing their hum humanity humility, humility ah and having courage lead in a different way. And I think that really starts with awareness, with knowing ourselves, with knowing who we are, with knowing our purpose.
00:14:15
Speaker
um And I think that only then when we truly know ourselves, we can stop trying to fit into the models of leadership that we somehow inherited and we start contributing something truly authentically, something that will lead the innovation, something that will lead the transformation, because this is exactly what is needed now.
00:14:42
Speaker
Fantastic, Barbara. Thank you so much for that, so much in what you were saying. And I think there's a couple of things I took away. One, around that, the need to rebalance um and maybe as well the courage with that to lead in the ways that we know are authentic to us rather than in the ways that we had been rewarded for all the expectations that are set and by the hierarchies that we' we're in in the past and really to try leading in new and authentic and different ways which feels really exciting um to some of what we've and been talking about.
00:15:25
Speaker
So i'm the next thing I want to explore a little bit is why we invest in women's leadership. And I think some of that's already been covered in some of what you've already said um and your stories. But Yulia, you know, we have investments of time, we have investments of significant amounts of money to um to ri to work on women's leadership specifically.
00:15:55
Speaker
um why do Why are you doing that?
00:16:01
Speaker
Thank you, Fiona, for a question. Well, um at the British Council, we think that education is one of the most important drivers of social change. And and the universities are those places that are playing important role because they are they contribute to demographic and and economic development, and especially now in Ukraine, As you can understand, this role of universities has become even more significant.
00:16:29
Speaker
um Universities play vital role in the country's recovery and they are preparing future leaders who will then potentially contribute to rebuilding the country. And um and as I said earlier, now we have this window opportunity in the middle of terrible circumstances that we have to go through. But we have this window of opportunity to change the culture and system within the institutions, within higher education. And by we believe that by investing in women, and we are really investing in a stronger leadership capacity across higher education sector.
00:17:09
Speaker
ah We are
Strategic Importance of Women's Leadership in Ukraine
00:17:10
Speaker
investing in cultures where different perspectives are valued, where people feel um able to contribute and where leadership is shared.
00:17:21
Speaker
And research shows that organizations benefit um more from diverse leadership. And we've seen this ourselves through our work in ah with universities.
00:17:34
Speaker
And so I believe that the para-universities there we believe that better universities create much stronger societies and if you want universities to be innovative you want them to be inclusive then we need leadership systems that enable um best people to live and it's not about ah their lack of skills that women have because i don't think that women do actually need to to be taught to lead. they They are already doing that. But it's about enabling them to be visible. It's about empowering them with confidence, with creating a network of ah people who will support each other. And so by doing this, by investing into them, I believe that we will, this way, we will change lives systems, we will be able to change the culture within the institutions and make it more supportive and more inclusive for everybody, for both men and women, for different levels within the institutions, for students, for academics, for professors, for everybody who is within this yeah university system. Fabulous. Thank you.
00:18:51
Speaker
Thank you so much there. So hearing there about shared leadership, bringing different perspectives in and the real benefits of doing that. And i agree with you, I've read quite a bit of research that shows that that diversity of thinking from different people is really impactful and helps better decisions.
00:19:11
Speaker
to be made in the long term. So Charlotte, let me come to you with um the same question. Why do you and the organisations that you work for and the ones you have worked for in the past as well invest in women's leadership?
00:19:27
Speaker
and Thank you. Before I respond that, I've just sort of been scribbling the key words that ah are coming out that are really sort of making me smile and also really resonating. And there was design, culture, I think, it really you know systems, courage. Courage was brilliant and courage for us to believe and understand and trust the process. Again, I think we sort of spoke about that previous conversations where we you know, it's all very well saying that this is what we need, but then we need sort of the courage of conviction. I think Yulia used the word and conviction and consequence. Barbara spoke about consequences and seeing those, and I thought that was really strong as well.
00:20:07
Speaker
And the community, and again, that sort of community of practice that you know, comes in various forms, but um how do we define what that means in each organisation? But it's such a strong, strong message.
00:20:24
Speaker
And the student and focusing and remember that we're we're all here for the learner or the member or the participant, whichever framework we're working within, but ultimately,
00:20:36
Speaker
I think it's also that whole thinking, isn't it? It's not just about the institute, the business. It's not just about the staff. It's actually the whole reason we're all here is to ah educate and, um you know, share and share and grow knowledge. So I think that was a really strong message as well.
00:20:52
Speaker
But in terms of leadership, in terms of the institutes that I've worked in and investment in that, I come from...
00:21:02
Speaker
two opinions as a line manager but also as ah you know being part of that. And it it does vary depending on what champion you have. um Again, and that's it's not a blanket response. And I will speak from my personal observations and opinions on this this um and then how we potentially could move that forward.
00:21:25
Speaker
And I know that's one of the potential challenges of getting that sort of with consistency across the programmes and those opportunities, is those brilliant opportunities that that they bring. So I was just very lucky when I was going through my particular um journey on the on the leadership and Aurora programmes was that I had a you know boss, a mentor, a line manager and a champion to encourage me to give myself the time, to give myself permission to do that. but that You could see that that I was hungry for development and that they could see that it was something that I would really embrace and enjoy.
00:22:03
Speaker
And I also know from doing some of the programs that's not always the place where participants come from and fellow colleagues across so the the other day i was having a conversation with a colleague and we we were like apply for the aurora program i think it'd be a really good opportunity for eu you good space and they said i haven't got time and i don't see why i would want to do that so you know it was having the the grassroots those conversations as well and um um but it that can vary from institute the setup inside the institute let alone the programs they're waiting um so i think that sort of really varies um is making it not feel tokenistic and uh from an institute you're not from a you know from a
00:22:47
Speaker
from the ATA point of view, from an institute view, making it not feel tokenistic and and giving it a so what and a follow through. How do we actually encourage that to then just not sort of fade off into the background?
00:23:02
Speaker
um And and then it then it sort of got me thinking about, oh, it's a bit like any sort of architecture in any institute. And again, I'm speaking in freely of my own experiences, not not judging anyone else's. But, you know, institutes love and add on, don't they? The architecture is like, we'll just get that and we'll plug that on and we'll get that and we'll plug that on.
00:23:20
Speaker
And it comes back to that feeling, it's really strong sense that I've got at the moment of the sector and the opportunities that are arising through the chaos that we find ourselves in is the design.
00:23:31
Speaker
How do we need design from the ground up you know not add-ons? So you know these programmes are fantastic. let Let's just add that on, bit of a PDR, PDP, whatever your version is within your institute.
00:23:44
Speaker
And um where do we go from there? That's great. They've done that tip. and it's And it's that. And then it's like, but so what? How do we then in you know embrace yeah the learnings, the lessons, the enthusiasm, the the excitement, the buzz that that they've gotten? How do we then make that part of the design and the implementation?
00:24:05
Speaker
So that's kind of where I ended up and that's why i became an Aurora champion, because I wanted to see how I could bring that essence and that sort of value and the experience back into the actual institute.
00:24:20
Speaker
So the people that spend their time and enthusiasm and learn something from it can then find a way to to demonstrate it and in or benefit from that experience.
00:24:30
Speaker
So it comes back to me, really does come back to that sort of whole process whole systems they're thinking. I think the systems here are important, but also that sort of experience of how we then pass that on an experience with benefit it has for students as well as the Institute.
Valuing Women's Leadership Roles
00:24:46
Speaker
um and And finding that sort of level of relevance and and seamlessly weaving it in to be to a design-led organisation that basically sees the value in it and the lessons learned from it.
00:25:05
Speaker
um And it is still really, I think, Julia and Barbara both mentioned that most women, they don't need leadership training. They need the opportunity to find and understand themselves so that they can then be confident and with courage and, ah you know, be part of their own leadership journey and bringing their own thinking to it and seeing that being seen as valued and not not just like a a pat on the head and a well done, e which, you know, which many, sadly, many institutes and, you
00:25:38
Speaker
the male colleagues, the real-duty experience in the sector. So it is, and the environment is is the other thing. So the environment that we're creating, that design, and all of it is a balance about creating a space and the opportunity across the board um to to allow that sort of space to thrive, I guess.
00:26:03
Speaker
Fantastic. So it loads in there, loads in there about that kind of the impact that developing our female leaders can have on the whole the whole of the institution.
00:26:16
Speaker
and i want to And I want to jump ahead to something I was going to ask a bit later on, but it feels really live now, is by developing our women's leadership for our um female professionals in higher education, our female academics,
00:26:37
Speaker
What impact do we think that has on students and on our broader community? So can I, Charlotte, you're nodding like you've got some thoughts.
00:26:48
Speaker
Well, I just think it's it' everything really, isn't it Because people are fundamentally at the centre of everything that we do. and how are we work with them, how will we you know teach them, how we participate, how we facilitate.
00:27:04
Speaker
Fundamentally, it all comes down to your peers, doesn't it? Your people, your place, etc. But people are at the heart of everything. If we don't have that, then what actually are we doing? um It can't turn into full business model as such. There needs to be the consideration consideration of that sort of human elements because that's everything should start from there so in terms of that student i think they can get lost in the conversation and fundamentally that's what our business is about and i don't always like the term student but the simplicity of category um you know that's but i think it's a a good word to use in the context but um i think it's everything because we are we are effectively supporting
00:27:48
Speaker
On average, again, there's all sorts of different learners, but in leadership context, we are something like the Aurora program, for example. or That's before they sort of blossom it into the leader they're going to become.
00:28:01
Speaker
So and when we've got undergraduate students, you know, we're there' at their infancy of their sort of ah the majority ah of students are at the beginning of that sort of learning journey into their careers or their, you know, whatever. So we've got a huge responsibility to and an opportunity to be on their level, actually. A lot of them are way more advanced than they're thinking in terms of collaboration, gender divide, collaboration.
00:28:30
Speaker
sort of collective thinking, sustainability, you know, all of those elements that are so essential to the communities that we want to evolve into, that we want the world to be. And no I love the donut economy and you've got, you know, all of that sort of mentality.
00:28:49
Speaker
all stems from this is the opportunity, this is the a transition into sort of society traditionally. So what actually we equipping them with? We need equip them with the skills and skills the future the skills and the so soft um hard skills to be able to navigate ah a world that we don't actually know, what we can do is through that some sort of adaptive leadership, through empathetic leadership, through compassion and kindness, if you can install those sort of qualities into anybody, then that's going to stem through the educational journey and out on the other side. into society, into a world that actually b is somewhere where everyone wants to coexist with each other.
00:29:36
Speaker
You know, we have at AI, but we have that, and that can do all great things very fast. And if you're a fast thinker, it's a really great tool, but it is still a tool. but But they're able to get their hands on a lot of information very quickly now.
00:29:49
Speaker
So they can rattle off all the various leaderships. theories and all of that, the theories, the reading thing and you know all of that. And I'm not dismissing that because really valuable part of learning, but the actual practice and the implementation and what does that actually mean on the ground, that's the bit that we've also got an opportunity in through sort of that extending the leadership across is where the real value, I think, in the long term. And again, that comes with courage,
00:30:17
Speaker
Because that that's not an easy easy thing because you're having to hold the space that may not have an aha moment for years to come. But we have to believe in our own sort of tacit knowledge and and understanding of life cycles and systems and everything that know that if we, and all the teaching theory, so very many wonderful teaching theories that we don't actually apply in learning.
00:30:41
Speaker
psychological, psychology, all of that sort of stuff that we know about and the well-being and, you know, that sort of whole holistic being that we understand.
00:30:51
Speaker
But if we package that up into something that actually is applicable and they're the students that are being taught and having that whole leadership right from bottom up, then by the time they pop out the other side, whatever that landscape looks like, they're going to be ready prepared and a great society of people to to nurture the next generation and and so forth it's not top down it's not that we need to learn from people up here yes but they also need to learn from up here and for those that obviously are listening I'm just sort of doing a top and a bottom scale so um so yeah I think that I feel really passionate about what we're putting in this is what's going to be coming out
00:31:36
Speaker
And we don't actually know what that looks like. So what what can we do? And we know that but we've got AI and we shouldn't be fighting against and raging against that machine. We need to be able to put people to work with that, but appreciate it's a tool, but a very effective, fast tool.
00:31:52
Speaker
and And we need to slow down as humans to be able to give the space for people to learn and stay connected and not isolated. Brilliant, thank you. So there's that there's that piece around how we're developing students and leadership.
Empathetic Leadership in Crisis Situations
00:32:07
Speaker
And then there seems to be another piece, I think, around um around how we're role modelling that leadership so that we can see that. Yulia, what are your thoughts here?
00:32:20
Speaker
um What really resonated and in what um Charlotte was saying is empathetic leadership here because we've seen a special like leadership in Ukrainian context, that empathetic leadership, that something that has become ah not not just a soft skill, you know, but a strategic leadership skill, actually. And I'm not saying that like that ah ah empathy is just pure ah women skill or something that only women have. No, not not not really. um
00:32:57
Speaker
But I think it's just because um women brought this you know leadership style that prioritizes listening, collaboration, like creative, psychological safety environments more in in their circumstances that they have. And ah and so on these qualities, is they have all proved to be incredibly valuable, especially in the times when there is so much uncertainty, when there is so much um so many challenges that we're going through, you know, when you have to create the safe space for students, when they are displaced, when they are experiencing incredible um challenges ah day on a daily bench basis for like, more than four years now. And um that's why i think this is something that um women can bring to to the board and something that they can they can they can really reflect on what they show in their work.
00:34:00
Speaker
So I would say that um this is like a core skill now that everybody actually has to to develop now in order to support the students within their journey, within the institution, because as it was said earlier, and like students are ah actually those who work for, those who, the what do the universities exist for, you know, so we have to prioritize their experience within the institutions and their um psychological experience. safety is one of the top priorities now as well, considering everything that's happening around the world.
00:34:39
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you. And I think you're starting to move us on really nicely to our next question. That piece around when we're talking about women's leadership, what do we really mean by that? So, Yuli, you've just been talking about empathy and collaboration, psychological safety,
00:34:57
Speaker
um We had purpose earlier on as well. So Barbara, this is really, i think your chosen specialised subject. um Tell us about but what kind of leadership are we developing here? What kind of leadership are we talking about?
Evolving Leadership Systems for Diversity
00:35:15
Speaker
So I think that for many years, when we were talking about women's leadership development, we were predominantly focusing on thinking how we can help women adapt to existing systems. That would be the summary of what was really going on for many years. So helping women we become more confident, helping them navigate existing systems, speaking more assertively, e etc. And i think that these skills are still valuable to consider and develop for everyone. But I think that
00:35:52
Speaker
um Now we are invited into a different conversation really. And it's the conversation about how the systems themselves need to evolve to accommodate more diverse ways of thinking, more innovation. and that's really the conversation to be had by both men and women.
00:36:16
Speaker
because it's about the conversation is about how do we create environments where everyone feels safe and inspired to bring more of themselves to work and to contribute to the common purpose.
00:36:36
Speaker
um And, you know, when people ask me about what are we actually developing on women's programs, I often want to say that i don't think we are developing anything that people don't actually have.
00:36:54
Speaker
I actually feel that we are just uncovering. you know Much of my work with women, with leaders leaders in general, is about helping people remove the layers of conditioning, expectations, self-protection that they naturally are accumulated through their work, through their career in the old system.
00:37:20
Speaker
And and i'm curious about what's beneath of those layers. and what what's already there. And very often I'm discovering there is already this amazing capacity for leadership that is present, you know, the ability to connect deeply, listen deeply to influence, to imagine new possibilities of leading and navigating the world and the complexity to act with courage. And these qualities really belong to human beings, not to women.
00:37:55
Speaker
not to men, to everyone. So that's where I think that my work is is going to. um So when we talk about women's leadership, it isn't really just about developing individuals. I think ultimately it's about creating a different conversation so that we start creating different cultures within higher education where all those qualities that I described that are lying underneath those layers of conditions can really emerge.
00:38:29
Speaker
um And I'm talking about cultures where you know curiosity is valued. in the same way that the expertise is, where the reflection is valued in the same way as the action is, and where authenticity is actually recognized as a strength rather than a risk, because at the moment I feel in many a situations, it's a risk for people to be authentic.
00:38:56
Speaker
a So ultimately, I think it's about how we can really create those environments where people can really bring food themselves so i feel that the work is really about recovering the full spectrum of leadership across across the board across different diversities not just gender not just gender diversity um where you know we can have
00:39:27
Speaker
decisions, tough decisions being made, but in a compassionate way, you know, where we have analytical thinking and all controls in place because financial situation is not great, but at the same time we can do it in ah in a relational way, thinking systemically and um and and compassionately. And how can we make decisions in a way that we don't rush into certainties because everything everything is shaking, you know the ground is shaking. So what do we do? We just go back to what we always did before. So how can we be in that uncertainty? How can we hold it within ourselves so something else can emerge. you know that That's how I'm seeing it. So ultimately, I don't think that we are developing better women leaders.
Authentic Leadership Across Genders
00:40:21
Speaker
I think what we are doing, and certainly through my work, we are developing better human leaders that can ah then go back to their institutions and build better systems where everyone can can flourish and contribute to a common purpose.
00:40:41
Speaker
or Brilliant, thank you. So I can really hear that kind of authentic, almost organic feeling of leadership that we're trying to cultivate in our systems rather than something mechanistic and a bit cookie cutter that we're trying to impose on.
00:40:57
Speaker
people as a very different way of leading. Charlotte, let me ask you, because you are someone who leads people and teams and mentors people.
00:41:09
Speaker
How does that, how do you see those kinds of leadership playing out in in the organisations and with the people that you're working on? And how do those, do you see that, do you see tensions there between those traditional kinds of leadership that we've mentioned and um and this much more compassionate, organic kind of leadership that Barbara's just described?
00:41:36
Speaker
Yeah, and that's an excellent question. So I'm just trying to slow my brain down while categorise my thoughts because it's pinging all over the place with too much brilliant, stimulating conversation. So um in answer to your question,
00:41:53
Speaker
I suppose there's, and i I use the word control as in the area that I have oversight of, um because I still think there's an element bit of control that we need to work on as well, institutionally, that sort of control. was having a conversation the other day with a colleague and it was, you know, that sort of collaborative control.
00:42:12
Speaker
And I thought that was a really interesting conversation for another time. But yes, that's a very interesting tension. And that does draw on that tension. I want to control, but I want to be collaborative. And and and I think that's it. So within my bubble, um you know, I set it up that we're supportive, we're authentic, there's trust, um all of those elements.
00:42:37
Speaker
And there are a few colleagues that, um you know, they they can sit, you know, on the onion, they can sit right on the edge or they might be in the court, but that's that's fine. But then I start to get challenged to hold that space and keep that sort of um thread through that when I step outside to the next layer of leadership or to the exec or to wherever that goes. And the struggle that I get is, um and I mentioned this to you before, I don't think I've ever used the word processes and policies as much as I have in my entire existence than I had in the last two, three years.
00:43:16
Speaker
And so much of the tension and the challenges that I've experienced in my leadership is that I've created a space and I've got the trust and respect and I, you know, both ways and it's collaborative and we're really supportive and we've got high, high functioning team. And then something happens and I'll lean on the Institute to, to give me the boundaries that I need to dance within and, or, you know, flex within or,
00:43:46
Speaker
be autonomy or whatever it is and they are woolly or they are not um i don't feel confident in those and and then and then the bridge starts to weaken so um because if you don't feel like you've got the backbone or the support and you could be undermined or or something could come in left field then you start to to get a rock. And then that impacts your sort of leadership because you are then able to confidently or um with authenticity support your own team. So so it's that. So it's it's again, it comes back to that.
00:44:26
Speaker
It's all very well having these amazing pockets of practice. And then sometimes the Institute can see those amazing pockets of practice and praise that performance But it's, from my personal experience, again, I'm talking just completely from my own experience and and my observations, is that is there no that's not harnessed. And it's almost seen as a threat.
00:44:50
Speaker
Take that essence. And how can we then expand that out? And it's there's still quite a lot of... um traditional leadership elements that could go on that can't then say, oh, well, that's fantastic. how did you How did you do that? What did you do? How can we replicate that? It's not my idea. I don't want it.
00:45:12
Speaker
I need to squash that because actually you're asking too many challenging questions or you're asking the right questions, but I don't know the answer to them. And and it's all of that. That's something that I've come across many times throughout my career.
00:45:26
Speaker
um and then And then that sort of throws the whole, you know, the whole sort of ah the wholesale system. so um So it does come around to that sort of reframing. Again, a word we've used a lot today, governance and process ah and enabling structure, not control.
00:45:47
Speaker
And there's clear boundaries that let people take risks, lead authentically within them, empowering people to lead and trust that they've got their, you know, um their own experience and and opportunity and know their team or department or institute, whatever level you're doing it at.
00:46:05
Speaker
um and And that comes back to how you set up the design and the culture and everything in the first place. But you have to be convinced and do the conviction of that and trust.
00:46:17
Speaker
um and and then and then identify it's not going to be perfect there are going to be gaps and then then it's rather than that accountability and responsibility is really big as well and really being clear so two two sort of narratives that come from that one I'd first <unk> like to say that our current VC is a big champion of HEA she joined us in February and um And just talking about empathetic delivery of really tough conversations, I've sat in front of her with a lot of our colleagues and she has delivered, ah and it felt authentic, it felt genuine, it didn't feel show face or service and she delivered a really tough message.
00:47:02
Speaker
And, um but she did it with ah empathy and it was with conviction and, um and And you therefore, it was you know it was strong and she was it was definite. It wasn't all we might do. it was really definite and it was definitive.
00:47:19
Speaker
um But I think that was a really good
Empathetic Leadership in Action
00:47:22
Speaker
example. And and i believe that part of that is having that opportunity, and having a woman in and in the VC position and being seeing that sort of culture and approach is really refreshing. And now it's just about how that then ah sort of flows down through the ranks. with Some people that have been there for a very long time and, and you know, that sort of change piece that she'll she's got ahead of her. But I just, you know, it can be done. I've sat there and listened to it. And and I'm very, um you know, I really sense when people are being authentic or genuine. And, you know, um so so that was really refreshing to see. And the other bit is about it comes back to recruitment. Yeah.
00:48:07
Speaker
as well. And I think that comes back to, again, policies, processes, and expectations, parameters, and and recruitment in terms of the student body, and but also in terms of the staff and how we onboard people and laying out those values and expectations and having those, again, quite clear, firm boundaries. It doesn't have to be unkind and they don't have to be spiky, but they need to be solid and you know everyone has to be convinced that they are a thing that will get brought into action ah in a good way and ah and a developmental way.
00:48:46
Speaker
Great, thank you an awful lot um in what you you were saying there um and I think that piece around two things I think stood out to me, one around the the boundaries and the how in how setting boundaries can actually be very empowering um for people and also helping that alignment with the organisational structures um as well.
00:49:12
Speaker
And the other piece that I thought was really powerful was about helping people to do difficult things well, which I think is one of the toughest challenges at the moment for leaders in our systems where so much is difficult.
00:49:27
Speaker
that to do those difficult things really well is hard. Julia, want to come to you because I think this piece around process and boundaries is actually really relevant because some of the programme we've been working on you to design isn't just around that sort of core leadership practice, but we're also really focusing on making sure that we have finance and governance and pieces like that in there because it feels really important. So let me get your reflections on some of that, that's okay.
00:50:04
Speaker
Of course, thank you. um Yeah, so many so many things that were mentioned by Barbara and Charlotte are resonating and so many things that I'm writing down like authenticity, like boundaries and things like that. And I'd like to reflect reflect on that a little bit as well. So in terms of the boundaries and the systems, as you mentioned, so within the program that we have developed and that we are launching, ah we are are actually encouraging the participants to think beyond their own careers. You know, they they come... to the programme, they will be coming to the programme with an institutional challenge that they want to address.
00:50:46
Speaker
And that means that um their leadership development becomes directly connected to institutional transformation. And it's it's not only about developing their individual skills, but also about transforming their institutions so that in the end, they can create these systems, these policies, that will be supportive to others, that will support ah gender equality within the institutions that will help to develop this safe and supportive environment within the institution.
00:51:20
Speaker
and and it And it is very important because i said as I said at the very beginning, so we ah we can't just count ah on the fact that now because more women are taking leadership roles and they're becoming more visible, that it will remain the same when the war is over. and when and that we will not revert back to what what was before. ah we We can't just count on that.
00:51:47
Speaker
but by By that time, we should develop the systems, we should develop the policies that will prevent put these boundaries as Charlotte has mentioned and that this will become a norm for and but for women to lead at the institutions to to be visible, to participate in this this strategic thinking, in finances because very often we see that women are not even allowed to to sit at the same table where there the funding is being distributed so within the institution. or to so to to think about the strategy of the institution.
00:52:29
Speaker
But what we want for the universities to develop within the programme is a bit more than just their individual skills, but but develop their institution and um think about the transformation of the institution and the culture of their university.
00:52:49
Speaker
yeah But another thing that I wanted to mention ah is that although we do still, like as I said, it's not just about developing individual skills, but and although we do still develop like strategic thinking, influencing skills, ah decision making, ah which are very important capabilities for for leaders, But at the same time, we are developing in the programs as an Aurora of the women's leadership program in Ukraine is the confidence to lead authentically. It's something that Barbara was speaking about. Because I remember when we were designing their leadership ah program in Ukraine, we had...
00:53:32
Speaker
one man in our ah experts group who was who acted as a critical friend.
Challenging Norms in Ukrainian Leadership Programs
00:53:38
Speaker
you know He often challenged our thinking, sometimes quite provocatively, but at one point he mentioned a one well-known Ukrainian politician who actually acted usually as a man, because probably she she saw that this is the the only way she and to be heard and to be visible, is to act as a man. And so that's how everybody remembers about her. But, you know, that comments sparked a really interesting discussion in our group. And it made us reflect on the assumption that
00:54:13
Speaker
has shaped leadership for a long time, that success requires women to adapt themselves to existing leadership norms and not be authentic and create actually those norms and lead lead on them. So our ambition within the program is different. We don't want women to feel that they have to suppress those qualities that make them effective leaders. such as empathy, collaboration, active listening, those qualities are not signs of weaker leadership. They are actually increasingly recognized and so as strengthens.
00:54:50
Speaker
And um that's why leadership development is also about creating the spaces where women can explore their own leadership identity, where they can gain gain confidence to leave lead in a way that is...
00:55:04
Speaker
authentic to them and so we are creating this community of practice of networks of trust where women can openly discuss challenges where they can change ideas test new approaches where they can support each other without feeling that they have to prove so themselves every time or to prove that they are and capable of doing something you know ah so or What we've seen in programs like
00:55:37
Speaker
Aurora Senior Women Leadership Program is that these relationships that are created within the program, they don't end when the program finishes. They become long-term professional networks. And over time, those those networks create something much bigger than individual development. They create this community of leaders who influence one another, who can collectively actually begin to shape and change the culture. in their institutions and and beyond their institutions in higher education overall. So that's what these women's leadership programmes are about.
00:56:17
Speaker
Fabulous. Thank you for that, Yulia. I want to take us on to our last question now, slightly mindful of time here, which, and I think we've been exploring this a lot,
00:56:31
Speaker
um What impact can focusing on women's leadership development in higher education have? And ah think what's interesting to me is not only the difference that we want it to make. i think we've talked a lot about that, but maybe something about what are we already seeing changes?
00:56:52
Speaker
um as a result of the work that we're doing. um And those changes might be to individuals or to systems or to the students in our communities as well.
00:57:04
Speaker
um So fairly briefly on this one, if that's OK. um Charlotte, let me come to you first. Very brief is how it supports how you turn up and how you show up.
00:57:20
Speaker
So supporting how women... turn up and show up in their leadership roles. Brilliant. Thank you.
00:57:31
Speaker
So I think when we talk about impact, um we have to be looking beyond um beyond the numbers. Obviously numbers are important and we see the progress. we have Currently we have 31% of universities in the UK being led by women.
00:57:52
Speaker
Fantastic compared to other sectors. From what I'm reading, depending on the survey, between 5 to 21% of organizations are led by ah by women. So higher education is not doing bad. compared to other sectors, but it's still not 50-50.
00:58:12
Speaker
And um I really enjoy ah joining conversations through the United Nations around International Women's Day because it just feels like this broken record technique that is being used there. is actually working because people are opening up to the fact and doing the research to find out that it is just economically viable and and proof beneficial to organizations to have more women at the top making decisions, right? It's just enough evidence now that the organizations who have more women involved in those strategic decision making, um
00:58:59
Speaker
are doing better financially, there is more innovation in those organizations, there is a better morale. There's just so much evidence of it. um But what I'm seeing ah through leading on senior women's program and Aurora and having this amazing privilege of connecting with champions across the sector and having those one-to-one conversations is really seeing how the thinking about leadership is elevating. So, you know, everything that I was speaking about, that's my hope, is that women's leadership, investing in women leadership will start changing the conversation about the leadership
00:59:39
Speaker
itself, I see it happening. And I've been directing Aurora for five years now. So um you know the when I compare when we started and where we are now and and the kind of participants who are coming to our senior women's program, often people who did Aurora and then progressed within their organizations and then coming back for more because they want to have more strategic impact. ah it's it's just It's just so wonderful to see that it is happening and I'm constantly getting messages through LinkedIn, ah you know from people telling me about
01:00:20
Speaker
how the program really benefited them. It's just not the program. It's the thinking. It's the network. It's the connection with women. It's the support. It's the normalizing different types of leadership. You know, those kinds of leaderships that I was speaking about at at the beginning of this podcast, you know, when I was starting my career in in consultancy, it's being normalized now. Julia was saying, you know empathy is is is the currency now, the emotional intelligence is a prerequisite. So mindfulness and leadership, 10 years ago when I was talking about it, people just didn't didn't understand, they want to understand. Now it's a part of the conversation because we understand that we need to have those conditions, right conditions for the development to happen.
01:01:18
Speaker
the development of individual which then can impact the flourishing of the organization when they go back to those organizations. Fantastic. Thank you so much.
Impact and Opportunities in Women's Leadership Programs
01:01:29
Speaker
And what you um just said about the the impacts that this can have on individuals and on society at large, Barbara. Thank you.
01:01:38
Speaker
um And Julia, what are you seeing that's changing in this space maybe already? oh When I'm thinking about the changes that are happening, I think about three different levels. First one, of course, is individual level because definitely the women who who participate in this women's leadership program, they confirm that they become more confident and that they become more authentic. And there are lots of changes happening individually. The second level would be institutional, of course, because when they come to the program, they are not just doing hypothetical case studies or projects at the institution, but something that they really need. They come in with a challenge that they want to tackle at their institution. And so by working together, they can bring changes at their institution.
01:02:37
Speaker
And the third level will be actually the level of culture, which I think is is the most important here. And ah so they are, um what we are trying to change is how leadership itself is understood and how it's valued. And we want universities where leadership is inclusive, where like different leadership styles are recognized and where are Collaboration is valued to where people with skills and have equal opportunities to contribute regardless of gender. So oh when this happens, then everybody benefits, when men and women benefit. a
01:03:18
Speaker
is students academics everybody benefits so that's why i think like these three yeah uh levels is where we see the change but of course culture which takes the longest actually and we and i know that um advanced she has been delivering the aurora brand women specific programs for more than 10 years and There is still a lot not to go to, but and in Ukraine, we are all are only starting here. We understand that this is such a long journey that we are on, that we are starting. but And it takes the longest probably to change the culture, but we are already seeing these shifts that are happening. And if we keep um supporting this these changes, if we keep focusing on them and investing into these changes, then I believe that we can go through through this journey even much faster than than it is usually forecasted.
01:04:20
Speaker
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Julia. And I feel we've covered so many different bases. um We had real fun in the in the in the working up to this session.
01:04:31
Speaker
And this session, I think, has just been super interesting. I don't know if anyone's got anything they want to add. Barbara, you're looking like you have. Well, I just really feel that we have this amazing opportunity right now.
01:04:48
Speaker
I know it feels tough. I know it feels very unpredictable and uncertain. And naturally, this is where our gaze would go, right? We want to focus on, oh my God, what's going to happen.
01:05:01
Speaker
But I feel this incredible opportunity here to really rethink how we want to carry on as humanity,
01:05:14
Speaker
as men and women working together for you know whatever purpose we we have, leading together, sharing together.
01:05:24
Speaker
i just feel like there is such a potential in what is currently happening because it's so unpredictable. Even if we have a plan, it's very unpredictable.
01:05:36
Speaker
So the circumstances, there's this pressure in the system, many systems that is just pushing us and pushing us and pushing us to the point where something has to break. and i And I feel like there is a real opportunity in in that to start to think how we can rejuggle this in a completely different way where all the notions are, you know, has to have have to be forgotten because they don't work anymore.
01:06:15
Speaker
So that's what I'm feeling and sensing here is the is the potential for what is currently happening across the globe. Fantastic. Thank you. um And I think, yeah,
01:06:28
Speaker
so much potential as you're saying for that transformation, which is sort of where we started in the theme through all of this is really about how women's leadership can help us to transform our institutions and our sector, which feels a really exciting place to finish.
01:06:52
Speaker
So huge, huge thank you to Charlotte, to Barbara and to Yulia for joining us today and for such a rich conversation about where we've gone. If you like this, please subscribe to our podcast. There will be more of these as we get into the next academic year.