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Authenticity: What is it Good For?
192 Plays1 year ago
In today's episode, Fara and Grant explore the concept of authenticity. They interrogate what it means to be truly authentic, what people strive for when they aim to live authentically, and how we socially make sense of and understand what we call authentic behavior.
We hope you enjoy.
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Transcript
The Art of First Impressions: Too Much or Just Right?
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think everyone, you know, who's ever dated probably is familiar with the idea that someone who like opens up about everything on the first date, you're either going to be really put off by that or like, you know. You're going to be like, this is my person. Or your head over heels after one day. Yeah. You find your missing piece.
Meet the Hosts: Dr. Farah White and Dr. Grant Brenner
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, I'm Dr. Farah White. And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner.
00:00:25
Speaker
We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York. We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the doorknob comment. Doorknob comments are important things we all say from time to time just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally hand on the doorknob.
00:00:42
Speaker
Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life. The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking, and experiencing. Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. And sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out.
What Does Authenticity Mean in Life and Therapy?
00:01:10
Speaker
I am Farrah White, here with my co-host, Grant Brenner. Hi, Grant. Hi, Farrah. Today we're going to talk about something that has been on our minds, but is, you know, also I feel like kind of a hot button topic and that is authenticity or lack thereof in the general world and within each individual.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, being authentic is generally considered valuable, desirable. And in psychotherapy and psychology, especially in the existential humanistic psychotherapeutic approaches, and also in Greek philosophy, like the unexamined life is not worth living.
00:01:58
Speaker
authenticity was considered to be part of a meaningful life. And, you know, in a kind of a loosely defined way, being true to oneself, right? Being real. And, you know, likewise in the self-actualization movement, which was, you know,
00:02:17
Speaker
I guess most popular kind of in the sixties and seventies, but is, is experiencing a bit of, you know, a comeback in some ways, you know, people are looking to live like a meaningful purposeful life. That's really important. There's a huge industry around it.
Is Authenticity a Marketing Tool or Genuine Living?
00:02:32
Speaker
And that's part of the problem as well as cause what is truly authentic and what might be sort of falsely authentic, particularly because, you know, like authenticity sells.
00:02:43
Speaker
And so people try to emulate or even simulate authenticity because it will drive, you know, product sales or clicks on social media. Yeah. Which is actually the opposite of what I think people are trying to achieve when they want to live a more authentic life. Right.
00:03:03
Speaker
Well, I don't think it's that clear cut. I mean, so I want to be careful myself not to be sort of too judgmental about it because you could make a case that that's
Social Media's Role in Authentic Self-Presentation
00:03:15
Speaker
inauthentic. But on the other hand, if something is genuinely helpful for people and you want to effectively market it so that people can actually get help,
00:03:26
Speaker
even if there are aspects of that marketing that may feel problematic in some way. I guess I do feel like a lot of people associate lots of stuff and marketing and materialism with this idea of striving.
00:03:45
Speaker
Strivering. To be something that we're not or to present a certain image and there's a lot of pressure around that because I remember he's like pre whatever iPhones or when people didn't have cameras everywhere said it was a very different experience going out like you just went out to go out
00:04:11
Speaker
not with this thought that your outfit is going to be like immortalized on camera and like shared everywhere. So it was much easier to just to ignore that stuff. Yeah, I think it's been amplified by social media technology and commercial interests, cultural shifts that highlight appearance. But I think you can also make a very strong case
00:04:37
Speaker
That's always been there and it's always been very powerful. The concern about how we appear to other people and contorting ourselves sort of beyond what is authentic in order to please people or to be liked. I remember
00:04:53
Speaker
in the dark ages when we used cassette tapes for computer disk drives. Before they were hard drives and solid state drives, we would plug in old magnetic tapes into computers. Before there were cell phones, people would still go out.
00:05:09
Speaker
to see people and be seen. Because people, I think Aristotle said this maybe,
The Authenticity of Influencers: Real or Fabricated?
00:05:16
Speaker
man is a social animal. And that's really important in the animal kingdom. And there's nothing, I'd say for me, there's nothing wrong with wanting to draw attention to oneself.
00:05:28
Speaker
It's a, it's a part of our, it's a part of who we are that can be done very authentically. Right. But then there's the thing about being a poser or an imposter, um, that kind of thing. Right. And I think before maybe we would see someone
00:05:44
Speaker
whose style we liked. And you could admire that person in the moment, but it wasn't like, Oh, here you can click this link to buy the shirt that they're wearing. Right. Yeah. I agree. It's amplified. Yeah. And you're not sure actually, if you're watching an ad or not, right. If they're an influencer, right. But if they're an influencer, you know, you're watching an ad.
Mental Health Discussions in the Social Media Era
00:06:06
Speaker
Yeah. Except that I don't know if people
00:06:10
Speaker
yes, obviously intellectually that makes sense, but I think people feel very connected to people they follow on social media. And there's, there can be interaction where there's not usually, if there's like an ad campaign, there's not going to be interaction with the executives that like thought that up. But if people are like avid followers of a particular influencer, and especially if that person is like a micro influencer, they may,
00:06:39
Speaker
have some contact or they may feel like they're connecting to that person. And I think that one of the things that allows people to connect is if they feel that that person is really like quote unquote authentic or very real. And so there's been this whole movement, which I think is, is a largely positive thing where people are like, Oh, I'm going to be open about my depression, my anxiety, all of my issues. And I'm keeping it real for you guys that like, I couldn't get out of bed today.
00:07:08
Speaker
And are you, are you critical of that? Or are you saying, or I'm trying to understand? No, I think that there, there are positives. There are positives and that might be a more positive one that it doesn't have to. It's not stigmatizing. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, doesn't have to like clear something.
Ethics of Therapeutic Marketing
00:07:27
Speaker
They don't have to. Perfect. Yeah. It's kind of like models with normal bodies.
00:07:34
Speaker
Right. And there's there's a whole I think there's an app called real where you like I don't know exactly how it works, but it's like what you're doing in that moment and you can't sort of curate it in the same way. Well, I think there's a there's a concern though about.
00:07:51
Speaker
I feel like you're suggesting that this could be problematic as well, that there could be kind of an undue or unethical use of influence. But the data that there is, marketing and consumer behavior data does support that authenticity is useful for selling products.
00:08:12
Speaker
That is true. And so I guess the question is whether it's a contradiction or not, because there's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to sell a product and make a good living.
The Podcast's Authenticity and Potential Conflicts
00:08:25
Speaker
And so if the person is being authentically themselves and it serves that goal of authentically wanting to sell a product because you authentically work for the company that makes it,
00:08:36
Speaker
That's not inauthentic, but you may not necessarily agree with it. Well, I just think it's hard to know because it's hard to know what the demand is for that product, how close the claims are to what the product actually does. Well, what's the real concern?
00:08:55
Speaker
Being deceived in some way. Yeah. Buying something and getting something else. Exactly. Feeling let down. And I think that's why I know for a really long time in psychiatry, psychology, the world of therapy, it was like you did not advertise. People found each other through word of mouth. It was considered kind of like a weird thing to put up a website.
00:09:21
Speaker
Cause it was considered like self-promotional and like you're marketing something. Yeah. Or I don't know, even like a podcast. Yeah. Which as you know, was like a hang up of mine for a really long time because I didn't want it to seem like we were selling anything. And I, and I think this is the key, right? When you are retaining services, are you paying fairly for someone's time?
00:09:49
Speaker
Or is it like there's this supply and demand and there's you know someone is jerking someone else around is that doesn't feel good for like a therapeutic relationship. So like these subscription models for example when they advertise these big companies advertise and it's like oh you sign up you get a therapist you don't like that therapist you can have a different one and they're trying to sign up hundreds of thousands or millions of people.
00:10:18
Speaker
This is very controversial, right?
Critiques of Mass-Produced Therapy Models
00:10:20
Speaker
I think it really is because you're saying that's wrong. I'm saying that it feels like you are trying to sell something to someone with some guarantee that, oh, if they subscribe,
00:10:35
Speaker
to this, they're somehow working on themselves. But that's not the authentic true model of how therapy was developed. Well, so if you were taking the counter argument, I found I found her online, I was trying to find the name of
00:10:52
Speaker
Uh, Eleanor Morton is a comedian who does YouTube videos. I've, I've shared her work with you. Um, she's, I think from Scotland, she's got, she's a, she's a ginger. And I, so one of her shorts came across, she was doing like a satirical announcement going back to the, you know, we're doing a podcast and here you are, you know, so, uh, you know, a verse.
00:11:14
Speaker
to being self-promotional because of your deep, deep psychoanalytic roots, where you're only supposed to get referrals word of mouth, and somehow that's more authentic, even though, right, if I'm being a little bit snarky, even though, you know, no one can afford those rates. And yeah, you might be treating 30 people a week, and there's millions of people who would benefit from therapy or even need it.
00:11:39
Speaker
And there's no other solution than kind of making it available in a mass produced consumer facing way. And maybe that's not how it would be in an ideal world, but it's better to get people treatment. So she was doing a satirical piece, Eleanor Morton. She was announcing to her public that she is not doing a podcast.
00:12:02
Speaker
And then she went through all the things that she will not be talking about on her amazing new not podcast. That's funny. And she's poking fun at how everyone is kind of jumping on the podcast bandwagon. Yeah. And I guess I feel differently because we don't, you know, we don't make any money from this.
00:12:21
Speaker
we just do it to really put something out there. So just to being honest though, if someone approached us and wanted us to sponsor something, a product, what would that decision-making process look like?
00:12:38
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, how much would you just say? Absolutely not. Um, you know, I've sworn an oath of purity. I guess they would depend on what it is, but no, I don't think either of us are looking to like support ourselves or like profit. You know, if we could get paid for our time, fine, but
00:12:59
Speaker
I mean, maybe this is something we should talk about offline. We have talked about it offline. That's why I find it so interesting. But what you said, I think, is crucial. It's like, well, it would depend what it is. Right. And I think that's one of the critiques with some products. I want to stay away from online therapy, though I think it's a good conversation to talk about. Right.
00:13:23
Speaker
you will have people who are spokespersons for that particular product. For sure. But I think being open and honest and transparent with that is different. And I think the difference between having a podcast that is really just to put something out in the world and it's kind of for fun and for people who are curious about therapy or psychiatry or both. I look at it like maybe this makes it for whoever's listening a little more approachable.
00:13:53
Speaker
But i don't think they think that this is therapy and that i know you don't talk about those online models but i think that that's the fear right if they think that texting anonymous person is there therapy.
00:14:10
Speaker
be less likely to get real therapy? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe that actually makes it easier for them to get what you're calling real therapy because it allows them to overcome their initial anxieties. And then the next step is actually let's talk. I don't think it's so clear cut, but I do understand that people who come from our therapeutic background tend to take a very strong anti,
00:14:36
Speaker
Position and I do think it's important. I do think there are problems and I do think it's more nuanced in terms of authenticity though.
00:14:45
Speaker
To me, I think the issue is like a fear of being deceived and manipulated by sort of wolf in sheep's clothing. Like someone who poses as authentic. In the extreme case, it's like a cult leader and everyone follows them and feels connected to them like a social media influencer. And that person is presumed to have good intent, but there's really a kind of an ethical betrayal and authenticity can be so compelling to people that that can be a way to
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's a way to hook people into any sort of treatment program. It is very, very
00:15:27
Speaker
appealing to say like, Oh, we're going to help put you in touch with your best
How Does Authenticity Influence Personal Change?
00:15:33
Speaker
self, or we're going to open up like, uh, the true, you know, like help, uh, what are the common things? Like remove any things that are blocking this. People are like, yeah, that sounds good. Well, I mean, I think there's a difference between, you know, getting in touch with your true self,
00:15:54
Speaker
and getting in touch with your best self. Then I start to think about whether there's a skew toward what is sometimes called...
00:16:03
Speaker
toxic positivity and that when people are conflating authenticity with not noticing any kind of difficulties they have. In fact, the researchers who have studied what authenticity is and developed psychological models of it, Kernis and Goldman being two of them,
00:16:25
Speaker
Based on sound psychological principles, I say that with a little bit of, you know, like people can always doubt these rating scales because there's a lot of those too. They don't seem motivated to kind of sell a product. Like I don't know that they're kind of hawking like an authenticity program for people. They're not building an app or? Maybe they are. I mean, I was thinking of creating a form of therapy based on this to accelerate people's development of a true authentic self. What would that look like?
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, I was, I was sort of kidding, but I did want to go through kind of what the factors are. Yeah. You know, like to your point, um, you know, I, I think I'm just going to say one more thing about our field. And so Eric from like, look up Eric from, if you don't know who that was, F R O M M.
00:17:13
Speaker
was a psychoanalyst, but also like actually a pretty widely read person in sociology. And people read his book, The Art of Loving, The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness. In our field, there has been something really against sales and marketing. And From talked about, I think, the marketing character, like this kind of person he saw developing in the 40s and 50s, sort of think madmen. And psychoanalysts are kind of against that, maybe because there's a tendency to kind of be cloistered.
00:17:40
Speaker
in two-person meetings and not do as much stuff socially or in groups, who knows. But I think it's really important not to confuse the field's sort of dislike of promotionalism with what authenticity is, because you can be very authentically extroverted in wanting to sort of move something forward. There's a lot of judgment. But in terms of Kernis and Goldman's work, they studied authenticity.
00:18:08
Speaker
And they found that there were four factors, statistically a four factor model. So one is awareness, like self-awareness, which is awareness of your knowledge of and trust in your own motives, feelings, desires, and thoughts, awareness of strengths and weaknesses. Those things are kind of
00:18:28
Speaker
things you can explore very specifically. Like I try to understand myself as best as I can. I'm in touch with my motives and desires. I can distinguish those parts of myself that are important to my core or true sense of self from those that aren't important. So that awareness piece is rooted in values and self-knowledge. The second one is unbiased processing. So that goes to what you're saying about reacting being your best or true self.
00:18:54
Speaker
You know, you can debate whether you need to be aware of kind of your quote unquote worst aspects in order to be your best self, but their concept, their factors unbiased processing. So which is how objective are you in processing positive or negative info about yourself, your experiences privately?
00:19:15
Speaker
And I think we should give some examples of what that would look like. So maybe someone, I'm just reminded of these by, well, maybe they're dbt-esque kinds of thoughts, which are to really check the facts, right? So, well, you had a review and the reviewer was really complimentary, but people who
00:19:41
Speaker
have bias processing because of their own insecurities or you know things related to that are going to really feel like something that was overall positive they will pick out the negative right no no no over emphasize the negatives and undervalue the positives.
Psychological Models and Philosophical Views on Authenticity
00:19:59
Speaker
Exactly. And then alternatively, people who are maybe have narcissistic and you know, they may be too fragile to really hear the negatives and may only be able to process positive things and maybe too, too heavily defended against any negative feedback.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah. Or people who follow a kind of a philosophy, which, which has trained them to only think about kind of positive, positive, positive, positive, and then potentially miss liabilities that they could learn from or even need in order to really get to know yourself. This also makes me think of a young Carl young's like shadow work, looking at the dark stuff.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah, which is very, very hard to look at, I think, but it sort of goes along a little bit with this idea. And maybe this is getting, you know, too far off. Two other factors, by the way. Okay. Well, we'll come back to them in a second. Um, that this idea of two things being able to be true, right? At the same time, like holding more than one perspective. Yeah, exactly. You're all dbt today, huh?
00:21:09
Speaker
I know. I don't know what that is about. That's the dialectic, but you know, to be, to be, to be honest, psychoanalysis and early therapy models really Freud talked about something called multiple determinism. The idea that there are many, many different explanations for any given experience and more contemporary analytic thinkers talk about mentalization and theory of mind and empathy and perspective taking. So, but dbt has a nice, easy way of talking about it. Exactly.
00:21:37
Speaker
That comes from Eastern philosophy anyway, like dialectics. Yeah. Totally. Okay. So go on the other two. Oh, so why don't you, why don't you take it from here? Okay. So the other two are sort of behavior that you need to have some self knowledge, some accurate processing to act in ways that feel consistent with who one really is.
00:22:05
Speaker
A lot of times when people are uncomfortable with things, it's because they feel like they haven't been true to themselves in any given interaction. But sometimes saying what we really think and feel isn't a possibility or it puts other things at risk. So it feels like, okay, there's this pressure to be fake to someone because, I don't know, maybe you do a podcast with them or maybe, uh,
00:22:30
Speaker
Yeah. You're the one who brought up the idea of product placement. If I remember correctly and sponsorships, I was like, what? Which version of Farah am I dealing with? I know it's yeah. Um, you gotta get your commercial interests straight here.
Authenticity in Relationships and Vulnerability
00:22:45
Speaker
So under behavior some of the authenticity inventory items are really interesting and people can find this online too but for example one of the items would be I rarely if ever put on a false face for others to see or another one is I am willing to endure negative consequences by expressing my true beliefs about things.
00:23:04
Speaker
Right. And this comes up in relationships too is like, quote unquote, brutal honesty is, you know, if your desire is to get along, so you may feel conflicted between an authentic desire to have a good relationship and an, and an authentic desire to be transparent and honest. Yeah, exactly. And, and people have to balance that all the time and sometimes, and not to bring it all the way back to, to meet you all the time, but
00:23:28
Speaker
It's difficult to say to someone very clearly, directly, authentically, that you're not maybe interested and not knowing what those consequences are going to be. Is that person going to
00:23:46
Speaker
Can be together and move on or are they gonna hit the roof and you know retaliate? We don't know right so different people are Comfortable to different degrees of expressing behavior that might lead to negative consequences
00:24:01
Speaker
Well, there's a need to be safety, to be safe rather. And you know, this is why authenticity is not so black and white. Totally. Because people have multiple different needs, all of which can be valid. Yeah. And you're talking about a situation where there's a power difference and an abuse of power is potentially dangerous.
00:24:20
Speaker
It certainly happens in in gender based violence, but also in other forms of bias, racism. Yeah. And it's a real problem that I'm glad that you're calling out and it's very much context dependent as well. And it goes to the next one also, which is relational.
00:24:37
Speaker
orientation. So this connects with the idea of how real do we want to be with people? How comfortable are we being our authentic selves? And this sort of inclination, right, to mask or to hide certain aspects or only reveal it as, you know, when we're comfortable being vulnerable enough. I think that's, that's a big part of this is you can
00:25:07
Speaker
be aware of this authentic self and then consciously or unconsciously hide it from other people. That's like a higher level authenticity. I'm aware of my sort of baseline inclinations and values and I'm also aware of a need to be careful who I open up to because I've been taken advantage of or it also goes back to the idea of well, if the other person is pretending
00:25:36
Speaker
to be someone they're not, particularly if they're using authenticity as a way to appear safe and trustworthy, then that can be a setup for regret and betrayal. Whereas if the person is being genuine and they are who they say they are, then it can be great. And if you've been burned a bunch of times, then sometimes it's very hard to know who you can trust, right? Exactly. But I do think that sometimes people,
00:26:02
Speaker
use self-disclosure as a way of getting closer or, you know, hoping that others will disclose. So that might look like, oh, I've never told anyone
Building Relationships: The Risks and Rewards of Being Authentic
00:26:14
Speaker
this or... Do you mean premature self-disclosure or manipulative or strategic self-disclosure? Yeah, I think we always have to know, all right, like... You mean like in a predatory way? In a predatory way or to try to move something forward.
00:26:29
Speaker
or in a less nefarious way, but just to like accelerate intimacy by creating a sense of openness that's precocious, it's too soon. I mean, I think everyone who's ever dated probably is familiar with the idea that someone who like opens up about everything on the first date, you're either gonna be really put off by that or like, you know,
00:26:51
Speaker
You're gonna be like, this is my person. Or your head over heels after one day, yeah. You've found your missing piece. Yeah, but I also think. It's usually not the case. No, but I think.
00:27:03
Speaker
There's a lid for every pot. So we don't. Well, I'm just saying there's, there's, there's happy stories about people who meet and fall in love right away. Cause they have the same favorite book, but a lot of times we hear horror stories that that is a kind of a traumatic, like instant bond that does pan out.
00:27:22
Speaker
Right. Or if the disclosure feels out of place. So, for example, like a colleague or a boss is like, I haven't told anyone this, but my wife and I are having problems. OK, that depending on why it's being disclosed. Right. There can be that I think was a boundary. There are a lot of ways to be authentic.
00:27:50
Speaker
without saying certain things. So it really is in the nature and in the detail, um, and whether it sort of opens a door that they may be wanting to open. So I think that that is the other really tricky thing that sometimes people can say they're being authentic or they're revealing something or it's very vulnerable, but it's to, you know, move forward their agenda.
00:28:14
Speaker
Well, it can be being used as an excuse. There's more factors than just authenticity.
The Paradox of Authenticity and Change
00:28:22
Speaker
And even within authenticity, there's factors like relational orientation and self-awareness, which it does require judgment and decision-making, just because something is true doesn't mean you blur it out, right? That being authentic isn't just saying everything on your mind, for one thing.
00:28:39
Speaker
There's also a question I think as we wind down about change because one of the things is that people can have trouble embracing change if they feel like they're betraying their true self. On the other hand, change can be very much tied into wanting to move toward your true self. So there can be a kind of a paradox
00:29:00
Speaker
as we try out different versions of ourselves. How do you think about that? Yeah, I think that's true. I think that goes back to the very analytic idea that people are working through these internal conflicts of how they want to be, how do they want to exist with the world. And that's something I feel like Freud was wrong when he said that people don't really change.
00:29:24
Speaker
once they're in their mid-50s. I think people are always changing and they're always, you know, who their most authentic self is may change from moment to moment or from decade to decade. And that is part, I think, of being open-minded. You know, my sense is that people are, you know, we're made of aspects that don't change very much at all and parts of us that do change. Also, in his day, you know, 50 was like really, really old.
00:29:54
Speaker
You know, not really, really old, but pretty old. Nowadays, like, you know, but people do tend to sort of figure out who they are, hopefully, as we get older. And then there are ways where you don't change as much, but then that becomes a platform from which you have a lot more freedoms, right? There's a certain freedom that comes with, I'm going to try photography, I'm going to try painting, I'm going to try drawing and try poetry writing. It's like, okay, I like photography.
00:30:20
Speaker
So I'm going to narrow my scope and really expand there. But it's like, yeah, I don't know if I'll change in that way. So I do think it's a good example. And I do think there's a capacity that people have for change throughout the lifespan. And it's really important to be open to that possibility.
00:30:38
Speaker
I agree. Well, you can tell someone people don't change. That's a bit problematic, especially in our field. Yeah, for sure. But there are some things that it's important to accept that won't change so that you can move on and you have more. Right, to the things that might. Yeah.
Personal Journeys Towards Authenticity and Conclusion
00:30:52
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. So do you consider yourself an authentic person or do you or not? I feel like I'm still trying to be just as much as anyone else, you know.
00:31:04
Speaker
Um, and I think when I'm acting in ways that are inauthentic, it just doesn't feel right. So that's the one thing that has changed a lot since my twenties and thirties is that I've done away with some of the things that I thought would never change. Right. Like the people pleasing side. And I think, could you go back to that actually?
00:31:28
Speaker
No, you'd like that. Not for me, just I've gotten a lot of, I've gotten a lot of, you know, a lot of comments. Yeah. I know. I know it's hard for, for some people, right? But as I've gotten in touch with what I really want, it's easier to, um, to just do that, even if it means letting others down, which, um, you know, I think is not easy for everyone. And then 10 years ago, I wasn't able to do that.
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah, I can certainly relate to that. I think this idea of kind of filtering as well and having different sort of levels of authenticity is really important. And it really does involve reflecting on what's important and what one's values are. And definitely over time, like you get to know yourself better, particularly if you are paying attention.
00:32:15
Speaker
You know, people can be in denial, but if you're engaged in a process of self-discovery, then the more time you have, the more data there is. Do you want to tell people where they can find us?
00:32:28
Speaker
doorknobcomments.com. Doorknob comments is on Twitter. We've got some really awesome TikTok videos. Thanks to our wonderful producer. Thank you, Dallas. And hello at doorknobcomments.com. Yeah, I'd love to hear from you. And we appreciate your authentic high reviews. Take care.
00:32:49
Speaker
Remember, the Doorknob Comments podcast is not medical advice. If you may be in need of professional assistance, please seek consultation without delay.