Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back everyone to the first episode of the debatable discussions podcast, where me and John, two high school students from the UK, talk about current issues in the world, from politics to philosophy to economics.
Speaker: And I'd encourage everyone to listen for at least a minute today.
Speaker: And now I'm going to hand over to John.
Speaker: So today we're talking about, well, we're travelling to the world of economics and we're going to be talking about communism versus capitalism.
Speaker: So we'll be exploring what they are and also a main debate of which one is better.
Speaker: However, today we're very lucky to be joined by our special guest, Lachlan.
Speaker: Thank you very much for having me, guys.
Speaker: My name is Lachlan.
Speaker: I'm an undergrad student at the University of Bath studying economics and politics.
Speaker: So looking forward to the discussion today.
Speaker: Amazing.
Speaker: So firstly, we're going to talk a bit about what capitalism is and the definition of capitalism.
Speaker: So capitalism is an economic system, which is the most prevalent today, in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for the sake of profit.
Speaker: So you've got companies which sell goods, people who buy those goods, and then the money keeps getting quote unquote recycled in this system.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: which is a privately based system.
Speaker: So the state doesn't have that much control on the overall wealth.
Speaker: So what do you think about capitalism?
Speaker: Lachlan, I'm going to start with you.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, obviously we've grown up in the capitalist system.
Speaker: We're used to experiencing it every day.
Speaker: I think for most people as well today, they don't really consider the idea of an alternative system.
Speaker: It's something we've grown up with being indoctrinated into.
Speaker: And I think we're led to believe this is natural for us.
Speaker: This is almost a status quo for humans.
Speaker: Human nature itself leads us to believe that we're bred for competition.
Speaker: And I think it's interesting that we've had some recent contradictions in places like America, you know, capitalist countries showing some socialist tendencies now.
Speaker: So it's interesting to see that the debate is starting up again.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with you, Lachlan.
Speaker: I think
Speaker: everyone perhaps listening to this podcast will be in a capitalist society, perhaps.
Speaker: And we can't really see outside of a capitalist society because, as you said, we are naturally competitive.
Speaker: And competition is a key element of capitalism.
Speaker: You know, the laws of supply and demand, competition will drive up prices.
Speaker: However, I think the thing about capitalism, which for me is perhaps the most attractive to it, is the idea of personal liberty and this emphasis on how there's not much government intervention and how things are naturally allowed to sort of prosper and people are able to without any interference.
Speaker: Do any of you have anything more to say, Dayan?
Speaker: Yeah, just also, you know, Lachlan's point is really interesting how we are moving into a more, a world with more socialist ideas, more quote-unquote communist ideas.
Speaker: So welfare states beginning to be implemented in most countries.
Speaker: You know, some might even argue, you know, the NHS is a bit of a communist idea.
Speaker: Free healthcare is a bit of a communist idea.
Speaker: And it's also really interesting because there's this grey area.
Speaker: So a lot of people would just assume capitalism is good, communism is bad.
Speaker: But there are some things in both which are both good and bad.
Speaker: And that's really interesting to explore today.
Speaker: So, yes, moving on to communism.
Speaker: Well, communism is sort of presented perhaps as the opposite to capitalism.
Speaker: And today we've only got five existing communist states.
Speaker: These are obviously China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam and North Korea.
Speaker: However, what is communism?
Speaker: The big question.
Speaker: Well, it actually stems from Marxism.
Speaker: And basically, the communism that we know today is really just this strain of Marxism that has evolved.
Speaker: And Marxism is basically sort of centered around the negative impact of ruling classes on laborers.
Speaker: And it posits that the struggle between social classes, specifically between the bourgeoisie or capitalists and the proletariat or the workers, defines economic relations in a capitalist economy and will lead inevitably to a communist revolution.
Speaker: So in Marxism, there is this idea of a revolution in which the proletariat rebels against the exploiters who they view, who are the bourgeoisie capitalists.
Speaker: And it leads to a system in which production is collective and no longer one group controls the means of production.
Speaker: And as I previously said, communism is presented as this opposite to capitalism.
Speaker: So instead of having a lot of personal liberties, you have things like collective ownership.
Speaker: Lachlan, what do you think about communism?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, one of the key defining factors when you kind of pair all the differences back is the centralised distribution of goods and services.
Speaker: And this has its merits and its downfalls.
Speaker: I mean,
Speaker: There's a few economists in America who are comparing it to the university grant system, where essentially you publish a paper on why you deserve the money.
Speaker: The government goes through it and deem the best use of that money is given to that given university.
Speaker: It's a nice idea and you kind of get the monies used for the best goods, the one with the most utility for the people.
Speaker: And then you have this issue that when you move on to a widespread system, like an entire country, you know, you've got 200, 500 million people.
Speaker: And how do you centralize and distribute all these goods?
Speaker: I think it's helped to combat the inequality.
Speaker: But so far, we've not seen it done on a large scale, efficient scale, countrywide.
Speaker: Yeah, and also, you know, the quote from Orwell's Animal Farm comes into my mind when talking about communism, you know, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Speaker: Really talking about how in communist countries you get this elite ruling class with a lot of influence and a lot of power who are able to kind of dictate...
Speaker: and restrict the autonomy of every single individual.
Speaker: I think that's really the key problem with this.
Speaker: Would you agree?
Speaker: Yeah, I would say... Sorry, go on, John.
Speaker: Oh, no, I was going to say I would agree.
Speaker: And I was actually going to field a question to you, Lachlan.
Speaker: Do you also think a communist system could ever work, potentially?
Speaker: I think it goes back to the classic has never been tried, right?
Speaker: So for anyone who doesn't know, Marx believed that an overly industrialized country would lead to extensive exploitation of the workers, like you mentioned previously, John.
Speaker: And this would lead to an uprising, the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Speaker: And ultimately, they would own the systems of production.
Speaker: And we've seen in the Soviet Union, most notably, and partly in China, but obviously they've moved away from it in modern times.
Speaker: It was promising, but I think ultimately, given the fact that a lot of the economics has been disproved now from Marxism, I think it's hard to back it on a widespread scale to implement it for countries like the Soviet Union, clear example.
Speaker: But that being said, obviously, it hasn't been tried in the mind of Marx.
Speaker: So it's a coin toss.
Speaker: Yeah, and also, although Marx wasn't really wealthy, Engels, who was his co-author, was hugely wealthy at that time.
Speaker: And I think it also speaks a bit about the ignorance that they might have had.
Speaker: So they were probably thinking, well, it would be great that everyone lived like we do in this, you know, in a home situation.
Speaker: and write all day and have no worries.
Speaker: But I don't think they fully realize that that's not possible.
Speaker: Yeah, I think a lot of people...
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, they don't know that Engels went shooting on the weekends in his jacket and went off hunting and Marx went on nice holidays.
Speaker: I think it was for the Isle of Wight every summer.
Speaker: And, you know, these guys weren't identifying themselves necessarily with the workers that they were, you know, advocating for.
Speaker: So I think you've kind of, you're completely right there in your analysis of that.
Speaker: And to add to that as well, their sort of theory or idea of communism has also, though, never really been truly implemented.
Speaker: They sort of envisaged it over more Western Europe, that kind of economy, that kind of country, whereas it's only ever been implemented in agrarian societies such as the Soviet Union or China.
Speaker: Yeah, and also...
Speaker: Really, there wasn't, because I think, correct me if I'm wrong here, but Marx would hope that there would be no elite ruling class and that everyone would just kind of share amongst themselves in a way without having this really elite political group with a huge wealth.
Speaker: Yeah, I think we've seen that later as well in the Soviet Union.
Speaker: There was an elite political class and it's why when you look at the entire length of its history, it's not a great observation into Marxism or communism.
Speaker: What's really interesting right now, moving on slightly to America's new regulation.
Speaker: If we're looking at TikTok, it's a great example where America's
Speaker: looking at a foreign company and essentially trying to ban it, which fundamentally is centralizing resources from the government.
Speaker: They're deciding what competition can and can't be had where.
Speaker: So America, the land of the free, is using Marxist ideas to regulate their own companies.
Speaker: I mean, these ideas didn't die with the Soviet Union, like some people like to believe.
Speaker: They're still very much alive and well today.
Speaker: And I'd also say it's a bit ironic, really, that one of their premises for banning TikTok is that it's a propaganda source for the Chinese Communist Party and that it leaks data to the Chinese Communist Party.
Speaker: And they're trying to combat it with the very essence of communism, which is quite ironic.
Speaker: Yeah, that is huge irony and definitely a lot of the actions of the US government.
Speaker: Now that we've sort of looked into both theories, I thought we should sort of move on to the main debate, which really is communism versus capitalism.
Speaker: Which one would you say is better suited to a country based on their advantages, disadvantages?
Speaker: And or do you think the best thing is perhaps a mixture of both?
Speaker: So Lachlan.
Speaker: I think fundamentally communism is a response to capitalism.
Speaker: We've seen growing inequality, Marx, or growing inequality in Germany and Britain, and decided there needed to be a system which advocated for the workers.
Speaker: And inequality has shown that a capitalist system cannot deal with it long term.
Speaker: There is a general rule of thumb in economics.
Speaker: Wealth inequality dissipates over three generations.
Speaker: So the first generation makes it, the second generation maintains it, and then the third generation wastes it, basically.
Speaker: But we've seen this hasn't been the case.
Speaker: And there's a writer from Germany called Walter Scheidel,
Speaker: And he's written a pretty long book from the Stone Age to the 21st century on the history of inequality.
Speaker: And what he's seen that apart from revolution, societal collapse, plagues,
Speaker: and war that in capitalist systems inequality doesn't fall over time.
Speaker: So when we look at in a long-term system, capitalism does lead to exploitation of the same people in the same generations over long periods of time.
Speaker: Whether communism effectively deals with that in the long term, I think that needs a bit of discussion to be honest.
Speaker: I was just going to say, though, that obviously you sort of have this exploitation of workers, infringement of freedom almost with capitalism.
Speaker: However, you've also got that disadvantage to communism in a similar style in how communism sort of does come hand in hand, we see, with authoritarianism or totalitarianism.
Speaker: And that is...
Speaker: It's perhaps not exploitation of the workers or people in a country, but I don't think it's that far from it.
Speaker: And I think it's perhaps genuinely just a shared negative of both capitalism and communism, that there is going to be this slight exploitation or infringement upon the people who the system is under.
Speaker: Yeah, I'd agree.
Speaker: And I also say the thing with communism is that everyone's equal because everyone's doing really poorly.
Speaker: You know, and it's because in a communist society, and we can see remnants of this, the salaries are low, corruption is very high, especially in positions with power, not positions...
Speaker: where you get paid more positions with power, such as being a doctor or, you know, being even the butcher, you would have an advantage because people would come to you with a need and then you would supplement your income by taking bribes.
Speaker: Now, this is still a huge problem in the former communist bloc, especially in Eastern Europe.
Speaker: And, you know, I'm not,
Speaker: quite sure of the situation in China and Vietnam.
Speaker: But in Eastern Europe, this is definitely still a big issue that you have those remnants of communism where people in this high influential roles will take bribes.
Speaker: And it's a communist society, but still with capitalist actions in a way, because people are supplementing their income by any means possible.
Speaker: So I think that's an interesting issue to bring up.
Speaker: I think that is obviously a tough one.
Speaker: The issue of taking bribes in high positions is one that honestly I don't think has been solved.
Speaker: I think we've seen there's been a lot of corruption, a lot of historical examples of communism.
Speaker: And going back to your point on the exploitation of workers, I would say capitalism is almost founded on the exploitation of workers in terms of
Speaker: When a technological advancement comes along, like we have with AI, this is what Mark saw in Britain and Germany post industrialization.
Speaker: The workers are replaced by machinery or in our case, artificial intelligence, and they become dissatisfied.
Speaker: And he believes that they will rise up and revolt.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: He was wrong in the aspect that didn't happen in Britain and Germany, but happened in the Soviet Union and China.
Speaker: But I mean, that's other factors at play there, right?
Speaker: So in terms of exploitation, I would say neither system is clear there.
Speaker: I would say that capitalism, I think it's rather inherent that workers are exploited.
Speaker: Yeah, so also moving on to another big question, my opinion is if we wanted to try out the communist system, I didn't think it'd be possible.
Speaker: I want to know your opinion on this as well.
Speaker: Because of the inherent greed humans have.
Speaker: So what do we think?
Speaker: I mean, this is a debate of human nature.
Speaker: Sorry, go on, John.
Speaker: I feel like I've been cutting you off so far.
Speaker: Oh, no, don't worry, Lachlan.
Speaker: No, don't worry.
Speaker: I was just going to say that...
Speaker: Greed, as you literally just said, is inherent to humans.
Speaker: We are competitive.
Speaker: We want to have more for ourselves.
Speaker: And that is definitely a major disadvantage of communism.
Speaker: People want more and a communist society can't have one person having more.
Speaker: And perhaps that actually is good that we share things around and, you know, we don't have huge inequality.
Speaker: But I do think communism is possible to implement.
Speaker: I mean, we have seen it.
Speaker: Is it successful?
Speaker: Perhaps not.
Speaker: But I do think you can implement it.
Speaker: But I think a major disadvantage of it is that you sort of quell people's natural desire to have more and be greedy.
Speaker: And perhaps in effect, this does lead to a higher class.
Speaker: Because you have a higher class of people who want more, so excuse themselves and say, well, we'll have more, we'll be richer, but everyone else isn't able to do so.
Speaker: Lachlan.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if humans are inherently greedy.
Speaker: I think there is definitely debate on that idea that
Speaker: you know, any human in the world, no matter what system you put them in, is going to want more and more and more and take from others.
Speaker: Plato and Aristotle famously, like when, you know, the markets first came to Greece, right?
Speaker: They saw the winners and the losers and the extortion and the greed.
Speaker: And they basically wanted to abolish what was early signs of capitalism.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: And they would certainly argue that humans aren't meant to exploit their brothers, essentially, similar to what Marx would believe.
Speaker: And that, you know, maybe we're led to believe that we're meant to want more because we've grown up in the system.
Speaker: It's hard to know whether this is inherent or this is something that's been indoctrinated into us from a young age.
Speaker: So that's an interesting idea.
Speaker: Yeah, so, yeah, I'd agree with that, actually.
Speaker: And it is really difficult to fully see and fully acknowledge.
Speaker: But I'd say if we look at every society, really, you have the inherent, I would say, inherent trait that people do want to do more.
Speaker: because of the fact that they can acquire more wealth.
Speaker: Now, I think if you were told that the maximum we can earn is, let's say, £500 a month,
Speaker: And you can work however much you like, but if you work 10 hours, you will get that 500 pounds a month.
Speaker: I don't think people would work more.
Speaker: I don't think so.
Speaker: But I think because there is a chance to get more and up your quality of life, including yours and your family's and so on and so forth, I do think people would do this as an inherent thing.
Speaker: Okay, I mean, that is a constant issue.
Speaker: And what I'd ultimately go back to is the idea of the technological revolution, where workers are ultimately left behind.
Speaker: We saw it with the printing press and the Luddites.
Speaker: They tried to destroy the thing that would put them out of their jobs.
Speaker: because they ultimately knew that capitalists would want to replace them and that would leave them to be unemployed and, you know, those whole raft of issues going on there.
Speaker: And I just think that's an issue that isn't addressed in the capitalist system.
Speaker: And ultimately communism has a lot more to say there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What do you mean by that?
Speaker: Would you expand maybe?
Speaker: Yeah, of course.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Essentially, if you look at your example, you've got a factory earning £500 an hour.
Speaker: And this guy's got to pay his factory rent.
Speaker: He's got to pay his lights and electricity, say, £100.
Speaker: And he's got to pay his workers, say, £300.
Speaker: So he's earning £100 profit that he's putting to the side.
Speaker: Then you have new machinery, right?
Speaker: You used to use a modern example, AI, right?
Speaker: Let's say you're a software company, AI, right?
Speaker: You can, you can replace your entire team of coders potentially, right?
Speaker: That's 300 in wages that you convert to maybe a hundred in AI, like electricity costs, right?
Speaker: So suddenly you've got 200 in costs and then 300 in profit.
Speaker: There is zero incentive for the capitalist to keep any of his workers.
Speaker: leading ultimately to mass unemployment due to the fact that they're not needed anymore.
Speaker: And this is something that we are currently watching unfold before our eyes.
Speaker: And the regulation, I mean, America's shown they're prepared to regulate that.
Speaker: Yes, I definitely agree with both of you there.
Speaker: I think in the communist system, we'd have an incentive to work for longer than you're going to get paid for.
Speaker: It is of detriment.
Speaker: I was wondering, though, that are the benefits of capitalism, as like a final question, do you think the benefits of capitalism overall, that economic growth, that's more likely to occur with capitalism than communism?
Speaker: Do you think that is perhaps better, though, than the workers, let's say, not being perhaps exploited or in a communist society, not everyone getting equal?
Speaker: What do you think, Loghans?
Speaker: I think there is no right answer to that question.
Speaker: I think it's ultimately your personal ethical views.
Speaker: How much do you value the idea that people are more equal to you in society?
Speaker: For some people, it's a dog eat dog world and let the free market run its course.
Speaker: You know, what may be, may be, but
Speaker: I think countries like Sweden, Scandinavian countries have shown that ultimately they're in a capitalist system, but the size of their welfare state, there's a different degree of support there.
Speaker: I think ultimately my final say, I think, to answer that question would be, I think we've shown the free market has its issues.
Speaker: I would never advocate for free market capitalism.
Speaker: But I also think communism can run on a countrywide scale, leading to possible solutions from Scandinavia, the NHS, or France's welfare system is fairly good as well.
Speaker: But the issue of intergenerational wealth inequality still remains in the system.
Speaker: So how we solve that, I'm not sure, but that's what's laid out in front of us.
Speaker: Yeah, thank you very much, Lachlan, for being with us today.
Speaker: It's been a huge, interesting discussion from my perspective.
Speaker: And I'd like to also thank everyone for tuning in today.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: And thank you, Lachlan, again.
Speaker: I'm sure we're going to have to have you back for another episode because it's been very interesting to talk with you today.
Speaker: And for all the listeners out there, if you're still listening, please do follow the podcast and give us a five-star rating.
Speaker: And thank you for listening.
