Transcript
Speaker: like Australian brandy isn't a new idea you know it's it's got real depth it's got real heritage real credibility behind it and I think as um you know new world Australian brand new producers we we definitely need to draw on that um but you know then again we don't need to be recreating the past I think the opportunity for brand new producers in Australia now is to take that heritage and reinterpret it for today. you know, we've got modern viticulture now, we've got better distilling knowledge, we can create more thoughtful oak programs and a clearer Australian brandy identities.
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Speaker: We're joined today by one of the superstars of Australian distilling. She's an award-winning second-generation distiller at Bass and Flinders Distillery in Mornington Peninsula. and The brandies, gins and myriad other creations she produces there are among Australia's finest spirits. She's the former president of the Australian Distillers Association, a Churchill Fellow and the current chief judge at the Melbourne Royal Australian International Spirits Awards. If the rest of us could manage time the way she can, geez, the world would be a much more efficient place. That is for sure. She's one of the most talented down to earth people you could possibly hope to come across in any industry. And it gives me great joy to welcome Holly Clintworth to the Full Measure podcast. Welcome.
Speaker: Thank you so much, Lou. Very happy to be here. Thank you so much for for joining us. ah Very, very exciting. to be talking about your journey, your extensive, amazing journey. um And, of course, Bass and Flinders and looking at, you know all the things that you've done there over the past, wow, over a decade, well over a decade now. I know this really was founded a little bit earlier than that. So, um yeah, maybe you could take us back to to that foundation time when... um When Wayne was thinking about opening the distillery on the Mornington, yeah, what was his what was his determination? What were some of the things that sort of sparked the idea for him to to open? What was, I think, the the first distillery in Mornington? Yes, yes. Well, I definitely remember the shock and surprise when Dad announced to the family that he wanted to open a distillery. We were we were pretty floored because Dad wasn't really even much of a drinker. He'd have... a tipple now and then but that was about it um but yeah from the outset dad was uh always about making fine brandy and um our location on the mornington peninsula was key to that uh He looked around the Mornington Peninsula and he saw that there were a lot of wineries, but there was no distilleries turning local produce into a local grape-based spirit. um
Speaker: And so he was very much inspired by the likes of cognac and Normandy and... all those other European fruit bearing regions that turned their local um grape or fruit into that spirit that told a story of the region it came from. So that was very much his inspiration. um And there was definitely determination when it came to dad. I, you know, I look back and I remember popping by and visiting it him at the farmer's markets and he was very determined to get people to try his limoncello and his grappa before 10am and he was... Completely miffed when they turned him down. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And, yeah, so I would kind of pop by see how he was going. And, ah you know, my time around him, that slowly morphed into me helping with a bottling or a labelling here and there. And, you know, maybe some zesting of some lemons for the limoncello. Related, basically. Free labour. Oh, there was plenty of free labour the early days. much to my mother's dismay.
Speaker: um But yeah, it wasn't until about, it wasn't until 2016 that we formalised things in my family and that's when I um i decided to take the plunge and quit my job and step in in and start working with Dad full time. Yeah, fantastic. And so your job prior to that had been in the drinks trade. And so we've we've talked about before the fact that You know, unlike a lot of decilers that say, you know, unlike your dad as well, you'd actually come from a trade background. You understood, you know, the wine and the booze world from there. How did that sort of, you know, you were with Treasury for a period there. How did that big company experience translate into, you know, the very small scale business of Bass and Plinners at that point? Yeah, it was it was definitely different. And it was it was absolutely, it was helpful, but maybe not for the reasons you might think, I guess. You know, it was my first corporate job at a large organization. And at the time I thought working in wine would put me closer to the heart of it all, you know, closer to the vineyards, the people, the stories behind every bottle. But in reality, i found myself you know in a large corporate environment where decisions took a really long time. There were layers and layers of approval and yeah all all the processes were really highly structured. um
Speaker: you know But looking back, that experience definitely um shaped enormously how I i look at our brand, you know the idea of brand building, commercial thinking. and you know the the understanding that the strongest brands are incredibly disciplined and consistent and you know that everything has a purpose from the packaging through to the way you tell the story um and so yeah one of the first things i did when i joined dad at the distillery was to upgrade and streamline our packaging um update the pricing to truly reflect the the value of the the great glass ethos that we have and all the hard work that was going into the bottle so yeah Working at Treasury Wine Estates, it definitely made me appreciate the agility of small business as well. At Bass and Flinders, we can come up with a new concept or a new idea in the morning and by the afternoon we can be having a bit of a play and a first little trial. so That's the kind of thing that is really exciting to me and and that agility and that ability to move quickly, you know that's that's something that craft producers have that those global counterparts of ours don't. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker: And yeah, I'd love to talk about Mornington as well, because like as a, you know, you're in the heart of a, you know, now a famed prized winemaking region. And obviously that affected, you know, significantly your approach. And then, so maybe you could speak to that sort of how Mornington has affected some of your products, how it's influenced um the development of some of your products and and what have been some of the positives and the negatives, I guess, of being, you know, so enmeshed in ah in a beautiful wine region down there.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, there's definitely, i think some pros and cons that I can speak to. um Yeah, absolutely. The whole, the whole reason for being at Bass and Flinders is very much centered around local produce and turning um that into a great base spirit. and um Yeah, look, there are warmer places in Australia that you can be ageing dark spirits and you might get faster oak extraction, but the Mornington Peninsula is quite temperate, um quite similar to cognac actually. And, um you know, that's great for us when it comes to our desire to produce more fine kind of elegant style of brandy.
Speaker: um Working in the heart of a wine region, it's it's definitely useful. you know Proximity is super important when it comes to turning wine into spirit. You wanna start distillation as quickly as possible after that fermentation so that you can capture the aromatic potential of the wine. and impart that freshness into the spirit. So yeah, ah having having having the wine at our fingertips, super useful. I guess one of the challenges probably um is that the wine industry is a lot older and more established than the spirits industry. and With that, I guess, comes sometimes a bit more of a traditional way of thinking, so to speak. um You know, we've had some incredible support from a lot of local wineries over the years, but there's still some wineries that see distilleries more as competition rather than a complementary industry, which, you know, never ceases to amaze me because, as you know, Luke, like way back in the day, wineries, distilleries, were totally intertwined in what they did in Australia. So, yeah. That's fascinating. It's something that I've ah've i've spoken to wineries about a lot, especially in South Australia, where they have this incredible history of, you know, winemakers, you know, is it was winemakers or winery and distillery for a lot of their history. And that's sort of been lost in in more recent decades. So, yeah, that that side of it's fascinating. I know there's that tussle there sometimes, which I wonder about. i think it would be beneficial to both distilleries and to wineries to to work together. um
Speaker: And, you know, in fact, as we've discussed, like in the past, they they were the same thing, really. And it was such a great way for recycling product and and for developing new product lines and ensuring that, you know, there's no waste and things like that. So, um yeah, that side of things always always fascinates me. And every time I go down there, I always visit both. I always go, to of course. some of the wineries and the distilleries down there. There's obviously a few fantastic distilleries down there which we might have chance to talk to a little bit later. um But the other thing that you did at Bass & Winners and that Wayne sort of pioneered down there was was gym production. um So obviously there was this incredible movement to to put some fine spirits and fine eau de vie or brandy spirit into cask. And and then, you know, you've got the waiting time. And in the meantime, Wayne got to work
Speaker: creating some fantastic gins and other white spirits as well. um But I suppose gin is the thing I'd love to touch on because you hit it at one of the perfect moments where the first gins came out right when sort of the earliest sort of modern Victorian gins came about. So can you maybe tell us about sort of what you remember from that period as well, your early impressions of Bass and Flinders gin, Australian gin, and then maybe chart how you've gone because you your gin production and creation exploded as did the rest of the industries basically.
Speaker: Yes, i I remember, you know, when we first released our first gin and at that time, the Australian Gin category, you know, initially it felt like it was very much about exploring what even is Australian Gin. And, you know, i think it was it was kind of looking at, oh, okay, are we going to make a gin with all classic botanicals but using Australian raw materials and that gives our product its sense of place? Or was it more about creating a London dry gin with a sprinkle of native Australian botanicals to to create that accent as an Australian gin?
Speaker: And i think as the gin market matured, the exploration exploration and the refinement of what a new world Australian gin developed that um really begun to be defined. And we saw you know the likes of the Four Pillars Bloody Shiraz be released yeah and Never Never's Triple Juniper. um That was another you know really quite groundbreaking, unique style of gin that was being released in Australia. And you know that exploration and establishment of new gin categories really started to kind of take off.
Speaker: um And then again, that i think I would maybe describe that the third wave, that was kind of when as more and more gin producers stepped up to the plate, we we started to think about, okay, well, how are we gonna define ourselves not only as a category, but individually from producer to producer. And we started to become even more nuanced around, you know, what's in what's in our own backyard here on the Mornington Peninsula specifically that we can draw on to create a really Mornington Peninsula ah focused gin. And so, you know, it was about, okay, are we going to champion native botanicals from our own home patch or is it about provenance or pushing flavour boundaries in new ways or developing a house style that that people can very much associate with a specific distillery. And so, for
Speaker: you know I think there was a real evolution from what is Australian gin moving to what is our gin. And we very much at Bass and Plinners, we very much kind of followed that same path. So our first gin release was our signature gin, and that was very much ah drawing on very classic gin botanicals with a sprinkle of um to ah native lemon myrtle and our gin ten with a sprinkle of Tasmanian pepper berry.
Speaker: And then we kind of moved beyond that and we released our Angry Ant Gin and that was our first exploration of an all-native Indigenous lineup of botanicals to really highlight a true sense of place. And then we had our Pinot Noir Gin, which is celebrating Pinot Noir from the Mornington Peninsula. and yeah All the while, we were also really honing in on, okay, what is Bass and Flinders Distillery's style of gin? And that very much comes from that that unique base, that great base spirit that we reproduce ourselves from scratch that gives it its own texture and viscosity. And I think when you try out gins, you you recognise that in in the style that we produce.
Speaker: Cool. and So when you first came into the the business and you were obviously doing a lot of work with gin, from a consumer point of view, like what what do you think has changed about the way people sort of engage with gin now? you know When you first came in, gin was exploding. it was a new There were 10 new gins every week at one stage, it felt like. And now, you know, things have evolved and I think maybe people are a little bit more discerning, you know, internationally, there's obviously a lot of talk about where gin's moving and the struggles that gin might face in the future. But like from a consumer point of view, has there been much change? Do you feel like people are much more knowledgeable about gin now?
Speaker: Yeah, i think um I think through all of those kind of transitions in the gin category, you know, we we also moved towards some really wild flavours and some things that really grabbed people's attention. And that was the purpose of those those gins. I think there's kind of been a bit of a settling down of not so much a churn and burn and releasing something just for the sake of creating some new news but it's more about settling into um you know honing in our own skills and our own style of gin uh and our own story behind our our gin range and you know each distillery is kind of building on their own story of provenance and and what what's gone into the making and the creation of that that gin and that narrative behind that product.
Speaker: Yeah, more more of kind of a bit of ah a settling down, I think, of of what's being put out there and also a refinement, I think, of the the quality, definitely. I think we see that um in the spirits competitions that you and I judge. Yeah, yeah. um and And all the while still a ah kind of broader broader exploration of some of the native botanicals. Like I remember ah in the early days, I think a lot of gin producers were really excited by three native botanicals. It was pepperberry, it was lemon myrtle, and it was strawberry gum. And they were pretty new back then. But, um you know, we've realised that there's a whole world of other native botanicals and and you can really draw on that sense of provenance. Yeah. yeah
Speaker: Martinis? Are you finding some martinis having this big moment? Everyone seems to be interested in martinis again. and you finding that today like are people coming to you and just, oh, is your gin a good martini gin? How would you recommend having a martini with your gin?
Speaker: we I'm not seeing so much the martini, but personally I'm loving the martinez at the moment. I've kind of gone back a step to something. ah Maybe it's just because it's winter. but um Yeah,
Speaker: Yeah, i guess I guess if that's, you know, people ah people are leaning into the martini a little bit more, that tells me that they're interested in really tasting the gin. They're not interested in topping it up with a whole bunch of extra ingredients and maybe some sugar and some carbonation. They want to taste the purity of that gin and and that provenance story behind that product. Yeah, yeah, cool. So...
Speaker: so Then I think we get to this period like sort of pre-COVID where you know everything seems to be going gangbusters for Australian spirits. There's lots happening. And down at the Mornington, Mornington Peninsula is doing fantastically well. And and my early dealings with you and and and certainly with with your dad were were amazing at this point. Everything seemed to be going beautifully well. And then, um yeah, tragically, yeah your your wonderful dad passed away then and just before COVID, just before we entered that really...
Speaker: you know, difficult, tumultuous time. um Yeah, it must have been. and then so everything happened with your dad and then you move into COVID. I imagine that was a pretty awful, difficult time to navigate. How did you, how did you and the family sort of pull through that then?
Speaker: Yeah, it was definitely an incredible incredibly difficult time for the family. um dad was Dad was a real visionary and he poured his heart and soul into the business. And it wasn't just about the business, it was it was also about creating something that he would hope he hoped would be continued for generations. And um you know Professionally for me, it was a huge adjustment to leave my dad because up until that time, you know dad had been my sounding board and I could call him anytime, day or night, have a chat, um talk through things.
Speaker: He gave me a lot of freedom to make decisions, but I always knew I could pick up the phone and talk it through with him. And then suddenly he wasn't there anymore. And that was probably the biggest and the the toughest shift for me. And then, as you said, almost immediately following losing dad, we found ourselves navigating lockdowns and everything that followed with that. um And so my family, my mum and my sister, all of us, we really had to step into roles that we hadn't expected to. yeah. yeah
Speaker: And so my mum and my sister, they became much more involved in the business and together we kind of worked out how to how to keep moving forward. And I think, you know, one of the things that dad did exceptionally well was was build a business that wasn't dependent on just one person. um He built a great business structure with strong foundations and a really clear vision. And so we were able to keep building on what he created. And yeah, I think that's something he'd be incredibly proud of.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I definitely know you'd be incredibly proud of yourself and everything that you guys have achieved. um And then you take the reins um of the business. It was ah obviously an incredible adjustment and change, but I imagine there must have been periods of excitement as well where you're suddenly and control of where things move. um What were some of the things that you really wanted to preserve um from from Wayne's time, what, you know, his vision, his the the parts of his vision that you really wanted to preserve? And then where were the points where you sort of felt, oh, maybe we can move things in a different direction and in your direction?
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's a tough question um because i I don't think, ah there was ah there was never really any one defining moment where I thought, okay, I'm going to change this. And I think it was it was much more of ah an evolution and it wasn't actually until my sister recently reflected it back to me that you know I realized that actually there were things that I'd fiercely protected from dad's legacy and there were other things that I'd kind of naturally let evolve. so I think, you know, the one thing that I wanted to make sure stuck was our reason for being, you know, dad founded Bass and Flinders on the idea of turning local wine into grape-based spirits. And that's absolutely something that I'm still steadfast on. You know, it'd be way easier and...
Speaker: three times cheaper to actually buy in the commercial grade neutral ethanol and use that as the base for our gins, which a lot of producers do. um But for us, that true craft of what we do starts in the vineyard and that comes from distilling our spirits from scratch. And, you know, that that makes us who we are. That's that's our profile of our our spirit range. And I don't think that will ever change.
Speaker: But We're things that we've kind of evolved over the years, I think is definitely how we operate. yeah um Dad was a phenomenal innovator, but ah some of the ways that we did things were incredibly inefficient. you know i remember seeing a few things over my time, visiting the cellar and going, Yeah, but why do you do it that way, Wayne? And he just went, oh, and then, you know, he'd finish the conversation tie himself in a few knots. So I think, okay, that was always a good laugh. Yeah, people like you needed to ask questions every now and then.
Speaker: yeah you know, if you stuck your head around in the in the original Tin Shed distillery and you watched how we kind of did things, we we'd distill things. tiny batches of gin and then we'd blend them all together and and we'd cut them back and then we would hand fill with a funnel and a jug into each bottle. we would labor tap a label We would label tapered bottles with like three part gin labels. and Oh my God, just just thinking about it makes me feel exhausted. It was it was crazy. So um we've we've definitely modernised things like, you know, those processes and and um created efficiencies where we we can, not not ever to compromise on quality or what we do, but just to free up our time to focus on the the the important things and focus on innovating. um So, yeah, like I think at the end of the day, um i don't think...
Speaker: dad's vision has changed it all but I think you know I very much try to protect that I've also tried to just streamline things make things easier and kind of build the business around that vision in a more efficient way yeah beautiful um yeah that's exciting well I think we're going to get two more of that vision uh in a moment where we might talk about some of the brandies and some of the other fun uh pieces of evolution that you've introduced in in recent years um so we might take a little break now and we'll come back momentarily for part two
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Speaker: Okay, we're back here with the wonderful Holly Clintworth and we're talking all things Baton, Flinders and Mornington Peninsula and now we're going to be looking into some of the fantastic brandies that Holly has been producing. it And I guess maybe more broadly looking at brandy,
Speaker: a category that some might say has gone through a little bit of a fashion crisis over the last sort of three, or four decades. But we can speak to that. Hopefully not. you know we're going We're all about bringing brandy back here. But one of the last times, Holly, we caught up was at the great Australian brandy tasting that we sort of planned at Casa De Vino's here in Melbourne, where we got to sort of marry up the old school era of brandy.
Speaker: Australian brandy production with the new yourself and St Agnes. You know, we tasted vintage bottlings from Yalamba, from Tollies, from Mildara, an exceptionally rare bottling. It used to be common, but, you know, now, you know, really hard to come by.
Speaker: What was your impression of that? And sort of what, I guess, what did you take out of the old school style brandies, the former era of Australian brandy and how that sort of marries up or doesn't marry up, I guess, might be another way of looking at it, with what you're doing, with what St Agnes are doing, with what a lot of other brandy producers are doing in australia now yes oh my gosh that was an incredible event and you did wonderful job of finding all of these collectors items that you know you just can't buy out there it was i think jose did a good job in particular jose myself but jose was the guy who had the brandy lying around the access yeah he had access so i gotta give him a shout out go thank you cassadorinos and crew that's amazing Yes. And incredible historic brandies. And I think, you know, one of the things that blew me away was just how vibrant they still were after all these years. You know, you really, you taste the fruit, you taste, you got this sense that you weren't just tasting one of kind spirits, but you were just tasting a piece of Australian brandy history as well, which was just epic. Yeah. And maybe for people who didn't know as well, these were 40s era, so 1940s era vintage brands as well. So the two of them, the Tollies, sorry, the Yalamba and the Mildara, sorry, the Tollies and the Yalamba were from 40s vintage, 1940s vintages, and the Tollies was slightly later. But still, most of them matured for 20, 30 years plus and then had sat there and bottled for... you know, three, four decades in some cases. So yeah, when you're speaking to that vibrancy, it's incredible that after all that, it was still there.
Speaker: Amazing, amazing. and ah And, you know, to sit there and to to go through the tastings, it was a reminder that like Australian brandy isn't a new idea, you know, it's it's got real depth, it's got real heritage, real credibility behind it. And I think as, um you know, new world Australian brandy producers, we we definitely need to draw on that. um but you know then again we don't need to be recreating the past i think the opportunity for brandy producers in australia now is to take that heritage and reinterpret it for today you know we've got modern viticulture now we've got better distilling knowledge ah we can create more thoughtful oak programs and a clearer australian brandy identity so yeah for me i think
Speaker: tasting through all of that. I think when I look to Australia's future of brandy, it's about honouring where we've come from, but not being constrained by it. And I think our job is to make brandy feel more exciting because like you said, some say that it's had a bit of a fashion crisis. So, you know, we need to make it more relevant and accessible for the next generation of drinkers. Yeah, yeah, definitely. um And I remember clearly, I still remember the day very, very clearly when Bastion Flinders launched its its first look at its branding program. I was sat next to your dad way back in 2015. I was very lucky to to be there and and to you know get in the ear of him that night and well that day and then that night um about everything they had planned and everything they'd achieved with with your brandy at that point um how's the brandy progression of bass and flinders uh been since then it's ah it's a very different i remember clearly what it tasted like back then it's progressed all of your your brandy range and your brandy stock seemed to have progressed amazingly since then can you talk about that progression what you've seen happen in the barrel um and maybe some of the changes that you are thinking that you've made and that you're thinking of making in future
Speaker: Yes, so if you were of recall that that tin shed where the launch was, um it had plenty of rustic charm, but it wasn't exactly ideal for aging brandy. It was freezing in the winter, boiling hot in the summer, huge temperature fluctuations. So moving to Dramana in 2018, that gave our brandy program a much more stable home, which is great. And yeah, I think, you know, ochre was always our premium expression. and it's our it still remains our flagship product. But I really wanted to bring more people into into the category, like was saying, make it more accessible. I've still got one of those very first bottles on my shelf too, and I open it i have a little taste every now and then to remind myself of of where we've come from. But ah you might recall on the original ochre bottles,
Speaker: We didn't actually have the word brandy all. Yes, I do recall. I remember talking to Wayne about it that night, that day, and then in the weeks afterwards. Yes. And I'm sure he probably changed his mind, but by that time he'd already had all of the labels, the very expensive leather holster labels printed, so wasn't going to change anything. But, yeah, it had the word fine-aged brandy.
Speaker: word ah fine aged age grape spirit on it. um And I remember having the same conversation with my dad. I remember saying, you know, how are we ever going to change people's perceptions of brandy if you don't call it what it is? um So i started i started working on other releases of brandy, approachable formats and brandy. From there we released our Noble Stranger Brandy, which was a younger, more approachable style. its Its purpose was really, okay, if you're going to buy this beautiful ochre brandy that sits on your shelf and you treat yourself every now and then, that's wonderful. But if you want something that you just um crack open at the end of ah a long day, add a bit of tonic, which is how I like to drink the brandy, you know the Noble Stranger is perfect for that. And i also created Madame Marmalade, which is a brandy-based curacao-style orange liqueur, as well as our spiced Christmas brandy. So, you know, using brandy and drawing on it and creating approachable styles and different different creations to to get more people more excited about it. Yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah, for for me, brandy very much should be explored and enjoyed. And the goal is to make Australian brandy much less intimidating and much more alive for people. Yeah, cool.
Speaker: And just to, I guess, you know, elevate your branding knowledge, your branding experience even further. um You know, you get onto the the Churchill Fellowship Program in 2022, 2023, and then you have this incredible experience where, you know, as a Churchill Fellow, you travel to cognac, you spend some time there, um you know, on the ground distilling, finding out everything that you possibly can about about cognac production. So it looked like
Speaker: an incredible time an amazing journey and we've talked about it since but um yeah maybe you could tell us what that was like how it came about and uh yeah tell us about cognac versus what's happening here in australia i guess yeah It was absolutely, it was the time of my life, you know, I loved every minute of being surrounded by a whole city built around a love of producing fine brandies, you know, like only in in countries like France will you find that whole town's built around a wine or a spirit. um And I guess my biggest takeaway from spending time in cognac was probably, you know, brandy very much is
Speaker: just as much an art as it is science. And some of the very best producers I met, you know, they weren't just distillers and technicians. They were farmers, they were winemakers, they were custodians of centuries of knowledge passed down before them. And um it was very much about the decisions that you make at the start of the you know, right from the next vintage and every decision you make from the vineyard through to maturation, it's all made with a clear vision of what you're aiming to produce as your final spirit and and what you're aiming for that spirit to become.
Speaker: um And I guess the trip also very much reinforced for me that exceptional brandy is very much built on three key key pillars being quality wine, precision in distillation and great barrel management programs. So, and if any one of those things are compromised, you can definitely taste it in in the final spirit. So, yeah. And then, yeah, as far as differences go, I guess, you know, cognac's got centuries of history and incredibly prescriptive rules and, you know, how and when you can distill and the vinification process and the maturation process. All of that is very defined by the government and those regulations, you know, there's some positives to those regulations. They've actually helped establish an extraordinary benchmark of quality.
Speaker: um Australia, on the other hand, you know, we've got much greater freedom. Our definitions are very, very minuscule. um you know One sentence sentences at best. Yeah. So, you know, that's also a blessing because it gives us so much more scope to play. You know, we've got so many different grape varieties that we can distill. We've got different climates. We can choose different yeast strains, different types of oak outside of French oak. um and it gives us so much scope for innovation. So yeah, you know, i think um a key takeaway for me as well was spending time in cognac. It confirmed for me that Australia's future is definitely not about replicating cognac. You know, it's much more about learning from centuries-old techniques, bringing that back to Australia, applying that with our uniquely Australian environment and using our own creativity to produce brandies that are unmistakably Australian. Yeah, cool. um Obviously, cognac, though, isn't doing too well, especially in France, it must be said, where whiskey seems to have been dominant there for a very long time. Most cognac is exported and not really consumed within within France, which is very, very interesting. um And, you know, I guess in some ways it mirrors what's happening here in Australia with Australian brandy consumption. I'd love to be sitting here saying that everyone's drinking brandy and it's the hot new thing that everyone's calling for, but we know that that's not necessarily the case. um What did you... but I guess...
Speaker: Are there any learnings that you can take from kind what's happening to Cognac in in France and then what's happening, what might be happening to to Brandy here in Australia? Do you think we're doing better? Are we finding new ways and new avenues to consumers or are we sort of fighting against some of the same struggles?
Speaker: Yeah, i think I think Australian brandy and French cognac, we do have very similar struggles. um the The French cognac industry is lucky enough to have the government support behind them. A lot of investment in marketing and a lot of that is targeted at exports. That's definitely something that we don't have here in Australia, unfortunately. um And so, you know, you can see Cognac is often referenced by rappers and it's, you know, there's a bit more of a cultural phenomenon around that. The Australian brand has definitely been left behind in that regard. Definitely in the same space. But you know, whisky's done an incredible job. And while I don't think that we necessarily need to replicate what whisky's done, you know, there's benefits, the the things that whisky's done really well, they've got that strong culture around provenance.
Speaker: cask ma maturation, cask finishes, um whiskey appreciation, collectible whiskeys. The whiskey industry has created a huge element of excitement around their industry and that's certainly something that I think cognac and brandy can learn from. um But, you know...
Speaker: and you you know i love brandy but like brandy's just got so much versatility right and i think people often don't realize that brandy is the foundation of many of the world's greatest cocktails so like obviously there's a sidecar but before gin in a french 75 it was brandy and before whiskey was in a sazerac it was brandy right um and so you know i think it's it's very much what we need to lean into is that is is that versatility and that um
Speaker: you know, it's got so much more versatility than what people give it credit for. And I think rather than trying to imitate whiskey or cognac, in Australia, I think, again, our job is really to reintroduce brandy to people in a modern way. um And, you know, our job as producers is to remind people that it's just about what What tastes good to you, who you want to enjoy it with um and and have a bit of a play, have an experimentation. And I think if we can do that as producers, I think Australian brandy has got an exciting future. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's the drink of heroes, as Samuel Johnson once said. So come on, Australia. you know We can be heroes again. Get behind your local brandy.
Speaker: producers I'll certainly be doing the same yeah look it's it's a fascinating side to the industry that that's yes we've been working with and dealing with for a long time now and um I know it's interesting that I'm starting to see more cocktails more more bars leading with brandy and cocktails or cognac and contacts which sorry in cocktails which probably wasn't happening much sort of five to ten years ago so Yeah, maybe, I think hopefully. is Is there a bar that you think that you love or that you've seen that's really maybe tackling brandy in Australia or in a new way or even cognac? um Because it's just that the the on-prem side of things seems to be a real struggle as well.
Speaker: Yeah, it's funny. It's funny you say that because you know every time I speak to bartenders, they they they are incorporating brandy into their cocktails and it's because it's fruit forward, it's smooth. you know i was speaking to a bartender and he was saying that some girls walked in and they were looking at having a dark spirit but they found whiskey little bit intimidating, what else have you got? He puts brandy in front of them, they were surprised you know pleasantly surprised and I think that's often the reaction people have when they try brandy. and I think we definitely can draw on bartenders and and they utilize it and they harness it in cocktails so well.
Speaker: um And I think often the consumer doesn't even realize that they're consuming brandy. So I think that's, again, that's something that we just need to shout out from the rooftops a bit more and educate people a bit more on. Yeah, definitely. More View Corais. My favourite. My favourite. The best.
Speaker: Go and order one tonight. if you're listening to this anywhere near a bar, jump into your local bar, order a review car, I hope they know how to make one. I guarantee you, you'll thank us later. um But the other thing we have to touch on is obviously you don't just make brandy at Bass and Flinders. One of the things that you especially have led the charge for in recent years. It's the creation of this you know whole suite of of really brilliant, amazing products.
Speaker: Apple brandies, Pinot Noir gins, spicy liqueurs like the Firetree, even premixed cans now I've seen as well, which are which are absolutely delicious. so maybe talk to us about well first your amazing talent for for product and flavor creation which i don't seem to uh you know understand properly it's amazing how often you come out with these these incredibly amazing tasting uh spirits but um yeah where do you get your inspiration from where does this sort of creative process oh how does it eventuate Yeah, and you're right. We definitely have a really broad portfolio. um And I have had plenty of philosophical conversations with other distillers about whether it's better to be singularly focused or you know embrace exploration and choice. And obviously, you've gone the latter. But I think, yeah, I guess what people maybe don't always realize is that for our product range, there's always that single thread running through almost everything we do, which is whether it's gin or brandy or mistel we are taking the that same philosophy that local that beautiful local fruit and distilling that into spirit um and that's always where our inspiration comes from so you know it's about expressing our region and telling stories through the fruit that we source and and that's where that apple brandy came from because the mornington peninsula before vineyards it was actually full of apple orchards um and so we we love using local produce local fruit and paying
Speaker: homage to our region. And so, yeah, while our range does look diverse, I think that philosophy is very much the same across everything that we do, that provenance and that creativity from the fruit. Yeah, cool well, it is absolutely delicious. A visit to the cellar door, I tell you what, you'll be blown away by exactly that. You know, you get to taste the flavours of the region, which is great, but there's also something for everyone at the cellar door, which is awesome, which is why I'd encourage all of you to to skip on down there. and visit. It's ah yeah it's the best time. um But of course, on top of all of this Bassam-Flinders brilliance, you know you have been drawn upon, you've been asked, you've invited, and you've accepted all of these incredible positions over recent years. One of the most significant being your role as president of the Australian National Association, which
Speaker: came about in 2022. Look, at that stage, you were the first woman in the role. You were significantly younger, if I can remember, than sort of anyone in that sort of role, anywhere across the drinks industry, across categories, beer, wine, there wasn't really ah someone that looked like you in that position at that point.
Speaker: Talk to us about that experience. Did it change the way that you sort of saw the industry? Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah, it was it was certainly a moment in my career where I very much had to step outside of my comfort zone. Yeah, yeah. um And it definitely changed the way I guess I think about leadership in the industry itself. Yeah.
Speaker: Being the first female president was certainly significant and I appreciate that, but I never wanted that to be the defining part of the role. i definitely more wanted to show people that leadership can look different, that it's not just about being the loudest voice in the room and it's very much about listening, about building consensus and creating an environment where the whole industry can move forward together collaboratively. And I think that's something that our industry in particular does do really well. Yeah, before I took on the role of president, I was spending a lot of time thinking about the challenges we were facing at Baths and Flinders. But as president, my perspective obviously had to shift towards thinking more about what's best for the hundreds of distilleries across the country, all with very different business models, different challenges and priorities. And so it definitely gave me um a greater appreciation for that opportunity.
Speaker: collaborativeness, but also the importance of advocacy. You know, realised that great products are alone aren't enough. You know, we need good policy, we need fairer taxation systems and strong representation if Australian distilling is going to be able to reach its full potential.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely agree with that. And you know your time spent in Canberra as well, I imagine that would have been, you know you you had many trips and i would frequently hear some of your sometimes exhausted recaps from from periods talking to politicians and other organisations involved in legislating and and dealing with spirits in Australia. um That is a different world, obviously. did you Did you learn a lot from that or did you mainly walk away from it quite jaded about you know how difficult it is to sort of maybe get certain things done?
Speaker: It is a fascinating world. I'm not going to lie. It's a fascinating world with how people carry themselves, how people communicate with each other. I think you can kind of observe and watch and and see all of these undertones and things going on in the background. It's um yeah it's it's it's a different way of operating. It's not in a world that I comfortably operate within, but I definitely got a glimpse of what it was like. you know, able to meet the Prime Minister Albo and shake his hand and actually give him a bottle of Angry Ant. i don't i don't know if he got the joke until after the meeting. But yeah, it was it was a really interesting interesting experience and it was a great learning curve for me as well. And yeah, I i i took a lot of pride in representing my my peers and and the industry at the time.
Speaker: And do you feel like we're making progress on some of those big ticket items? This is very much of a trade focused question, I guess, but you know it massively affects consumers and especially anyone who wants to you know get around and purchase Australian Spirits at possibly a more affordable level in future. um Do you feel like there's this progress being made or are we just sort of butting our heads against the wall?
Speaker: Look, I think you know when you step back, it often feels like we're butting our head against a brick wall. But when you step back and you think, you know, just even over the last few years, I think all of the advocacy work that we did and and rallying distilleries from across the country to front up to their local MPs and have the conversations and ask ask the questions and hold them to account, I definitely feel like the progress we've made is that we now have a seat at the table. I think that the government recognises our industry as one of great potential in manufacturing and that in itself is a huge change you know before then we had to really um we had to really argue our case as to why they should even listen to us so i think that's that we've come a long way there um obviously the the parliamentary inquiry um the outputs from that means that there are there are things that we can go back to government on and and point to the
Speaker: to the outcomes from the parliamentary paper and say, look, you did recommend that a Spirits Australia should be established. What are you going to do about it? So I think we've we've got somewhere to launch off now, whereas we we didn't previously.
Speaker: yeah fantastic great fingers crossed fingers crossed we see some progress uh on that front in future i guess we'll see we'll see what happens you can you know who knows if it's political cycles the way they are it's it's a very very difficult tricky space but anyway on to on to nicer things um you know the melbourne royal australian international spirits awards uh are just about to be held um And it's an incredibly exciting this year for for competitions here, for competitions right around Australia and the world. Of course, this year, your first year as chief judge of of the competition. Congratulations, massively exciting. um And, you know, I often wonder what is there left now for Holly Clintworth to conquer? You've pretty much taken on and run every organisation almost in the country. um What are you most looking forward to with the judging in particular? And how do you see, I guess, that side of the industry, the competition side moving forward?
Speaker: Yes, and you also will be judging together. Very exciting. I think um probably similarly to you, it's very much one of my favourite times of the year. I think stepping into that space and having the privilege of tasting all of the heart and soul and passion behind what producers have put forward and and they're putting forward their very best of their product range. I'm looking forward to seeing seeing what kind of level that that spirits and that quality is at now. Every year it just gets better and better. There are flavours and profiles that just completely blow my mind. And so it's it's going to be really exciting to see just in the last 12 months how things have evolved in Australia as well as internationally and really celebrate, celebrate how far our industry has come. Yeah, definitely. And...
Speaker: I mean, we're all going to celebrating Bass and Flinders moving forward, hopefully. You've got some fun little products coming up on the horizon, which I you know i might have tasted one or two today and in previous weeks, which are which I can say, yeah, when they release, look out for them. That'd be fantastic. But um yeah, what what can we expect from Bass and Flinders moving forward?
Speaker: Yes, we do have some little products coming up. I think, yeah, for me, it's um very much about really continuing to reignite people people's passion for brandy and this next product is is a brandy. And it's a brandy that is for playing with, for having fun with, for exploring with. And i think, you know, that's very much in the vein of what we're about. We, you know, there's so much left to explore when it comes to the brandy category. And um i think from everything that I've taken away from my time in Cognac over the past few years, I think we're only just getting started at Bass and Flinders. And as an industry, you know, I think we're just beginning to scratch the surface of what's possible for Australian brandy. So my head and my heart is very much in that space at the moment with this new product release coming up. Yeah, fantastic. Exciting. um Well, thank you so very much for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure. um If you haven't, as I mentioned before, visited Bass and Flinders down in Monington, get on down there if you're if you're in this part of the world um jump on jump onto their website and have a look at some of the fantastic products and of course get into brandy come on help us out it's the best yeah join us join us yeah yes and view car race remember um holly thank you so very much it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today and look forward to working with you again soon thank you
Speaker: The Full Measure podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. For all partnership inquiries, reach out to c Craig Williams, craig at thefullmeasure.com.au. To keep up to date with everything happening in Australian spirits, visit thefullmeasure.com.au and subscribe.
