Transcript
Speaker: Before we get onto the progression of Australian Gin, how have you seen that progression and that growth and where do you see Australian Gin currently sitting? So interesting. I said I had opinions, right?
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Speaker: We're joined today by one of Australia's most highly awarded distillers. He's been described as a vocation flipper of extreme proportions after launching a distillery in Western Australia's beautiful Swan Valley in 2016. This followed a career in graphic design, hockey coaching in Lithuania, and heading up WA sports organisations in netball and swimming.
Speaker: I know him best as the founder and creative force behind Old Young's Distillery. producer of some of the finest gins and vodkas you'll come across anywhere and a wonderful bloke to boot. James Young, welcome to the Full Measure podcast. It is so good to be here, thank you. This is going to be fun. Yeah, absolutely, mate. Well, um look, you've you've got now today one of Australia's but sort of most recognisable gin brands, but where I'd love to start is at the beginning because I remember your beginning quite vividly. But I guess before we get there, what was your life looking like before you emerged into made the decision to come into distilling? So you ah you sort of covered it like physics, chemistry, maths, computer science and finished with a psych degree. Didn't use it, started the design business, sold it, moved to Lithuania, ended up coaching the national women's hockey team, came back, worked in advertising, you missed that one. ah Then, yeah, um sports, so hockey, netball, swimming. And the day I got appointed CEO of Swimming WA was the day that I said I quit, I'm going to go make gin. So I presented my five-year plan to the board for them to rubber stamp me being getting the gig. And then I came in and said, I've got a great five-year plan that someone else is going to need to deliver. And I think the the best thing about that is the chairman at the time is now an investor. So she said like you were clearly a better ah gin maker than you were ever going to be a swimming CEO. Yeah. And so did you always have an idea about where you were going to go, you going to base the story? ah No, is the short answer. So um actually, the so the the origin story is not old youngs, it's Jin Jin Jin. So it's a conversation with my brother, i guess 14, 15 years ago now that
Speaker: if you're gonna make gin, you should make it in gin gin, and then you can call it gin gin gin. That little idea. So like clearly sliding doors moments in my life anyway with the with the career ADD. But um like that idea of gin in gin gin was the thing that just nagged at the back of my head. And that was what made me look and say, hey, this is,
Speaker: I think actually a pretty cool name and we can have some fun with it. But also the timing actually looks pretty good that maybe craft spirits are going to do what craft beer did 30 years ago, what boutique wine did 50 years ago. yeah So I thought I've got a half decent idea and good timing. So that was actually the the start of the journey. And so, yeah, that was,
Speaker: Probably, think, it was probably two jobs before I actually leapt off the cliff. So it was festering and sort taking shape. Yeah. so so ah So the original thought was to be up in Jinjin, but then we found the site in the Son Valley, got um and which was a mothballed distillery. Yeah. The guy had actually set up a distillery and had no idea what to do with it. He was, I think, working as a geologist, and he moved to Canada and tried to run it by remote control and it predictably imploded. And so i i remember walking in there one day when I was sort of researching it, and there was a girl sitting behind the counter in the tasting room, and it was quite a high counter, so you could kind of only see the top of her head. and um
Speaker: The lights are off and there's no music on. And I came in and said, oh, can I do a tasting? And chatting away. It's like, oh, the Swamp Valley is really busy today. There's buses everywhere and the cars everywhere. And she said, oh God, I hope they don't come here. And I was like, I don't feel like you get this. so um yeah, so reasonably predictably it kind of imploded and so I came in and said let me take this problem off your hands and realized exactly how many problems I took off his hands but like that was and so then when you're in the Swan Valley which is a great spot for a distillery but you can't call it gin gin gin yeah So we, I toyed with the idea of keeping the name Wild Swan and Troy Truen who's here, who's been a mentor to me and a lot of other distillers came in with Bill Lark one day and just unannounced. I've got the godfather of distilling, walk into the distillery just going, Oh, what are you doing here, James? And I was like, And Troy that night, we went out with Cam Simon, Troy and Bill and Troy pulled me out and said, why are you keeping that stupid fucking name for?
Speaker: That's not you. yeah It's got nothing to do with you. So old Youngs was mine. There you go. Fantastic. So you launch in 2016. And then this is something that I remember vividly because I remember being there that night. A year later, a year after your launch, you win the title of Champion Distillery at the Melbourne Royal Australian Steel Spirits Awards. It was ridiculous moment. I remember the... just belief on your face and the excitement and the energy in the room was was spectacular and then the next year you win it again so you've been up and running since 2016 and you've basically been elevated to the upper echelon the top the top of the top in Australia and I'm not even winning for a single product but the actual yeah yeah which is the big gong really it was yeah so what talks through it so it actually it's it's you're half right there right So we actually won champion vodka be before we were actually even old youngs. So happened in about March and we hadn't actually launched, but I'd produced the product and so I'd send it to the awards. And so that was in March 2020.
Speaker: 16, right? And we won champion vodka and I turned up and I got teary and that's probably one that you remember. the one remember, right? Pretty boozy those nights. Yeah, I know, right? And then the second time, actually there was a huge delegation of Australians who went to the American conference. like one of the most legendary tastings or presentations in ADI history where we had slides and a deck ready to go. And people came in slowly. So we started, we'd all bought booze. So we started feeding and we never, the deck never went on. Oh. And basically we ended up with half the conference in a room, not big, much bigger than this. And it like people still talk about hush tones about the time the Australians came to them. And Stu was there and, and Will from Archie Rose and it was a good crew and Spike Desert III was there, the legend. And it was actually on the plane on the way back that it got announced that
Speaker: we'd won and so i'd I'd sent my wife to go right because they said can you come along and I thought hopefully we'd won something and i actually paid like half of the budget of a small country back then to send an SMS from the plane um And I got the SMS back saying we've won and then I like a waterworks on the plane I'm wandering around all the lights are out cause halfway across the Atlantic or Pacific sorry.
Speaker: And so I ended up like, I'm just wandering around the plane and one of the hostesses found me and sort of said, look, are you okay? so I just won this B award and she was like first class go and bring, we drink champagne in the back. So yeah. going to try that when I fly to and the UK. the yeah Yeah. And so then, so I shared that with Spike, which was really special. Amazing. And then the year after came back and won it again and then yeah, that same Waterworks was all all on again. so yeah, and so shared the first time and won it outright the second.
Speaker: So it was a hell of a start to a career. And so did you have like recipes worked out before you went into that place? Yes. So that had all been happening the background? So what I did was when we took over, I traded for about 18 months.
Speaker: under the old name, and name how while I did my recipe development and stuff. So, um, and then started developing the recipes and developing the products. And then yeah, Friday, 13th of May, 2016, um, we launched as a, the sign went up at about quarter to three because I was looking at the photos the other day. Wow. what do you think it was that you, you had, you know, that you know, the palette or whatever? Yeah. Um,
Speaker: I think had learned a little bit about the storytelling, whether that's whether that's as a coach, because you're trying to take people all along on a journey with you. I hate that phrase, but like, um but um or if you're doing advertising, that like, there's always been a bit of a storyteller in me. And I think that, this To me, the story almost precedes the product. like When we do a gin ma um like making class, I say to people, like don't just walk in and say, I'm going to make a good gin, because that's like, say I'm going to do a good painting or a good piece of music. like Walk in and say, I want to make a gin for three o'clock on a Thursday afternoon after a shitty day, and it's 40 degrees outside. yeah because then you've got a chance so i think if you can imagine why you're drinking the product and then then you can measure yourself against that dream for the product rather than getting a product and go when would this be nice yeah like i think if you have the idea of it first then you've got a much better chance of developing something to that yeah um so i think that's been important i was always the guy who could look at a cupboard a pretty bare cupboard and go
Speaker: I reckon those, could get anchovies, pasta, and maybe a little bit of tomato sauce and turn that into something. So think I always had a pretty good sense of being able to almost taste things by looking at and getting a sense of how flavours might play together. And balance.
Speaker: Making balanced products. like not Which is why you won the awards. Yes, absolutely. yeah I think you people sometimes when they make a product, they'll be so... And sometimes that can be exciting. Like you try a whiskey and it's just smoky as fuck, right? And it's interesting. But do you want a second glass? Or like or it's extracted and woody as fuck or whatever it happens to be. Or it's got this one key botanical that's just absolutely screaming at the top of its voice. But they're interesting. But I don't think they can be your core range. yeah And I think that was really important to to get. That was ah like at the heart of everything we made from day one.
Speaker: Yeah. And the Swan Valley, the WA scene, the geography of the place, I guess, you know, broadly more moving into thinking about your botanical makeup, Australian natives. How did that conversation, that that thinking play out? How are we going to get that sense of place into what you're making in terms of your gins and your vodkas? So the Swan Valley is second oldest one region in Australia behind the Hunter. So it's got a lot of history. And like even now, 10 years in, i'm i I'm still a newbie in the valley. Like you are, there's there's grudging acceptance that I might stick around. But like, these are this is a very authentic region. like the The people behind the counters are the families that own the land. They're not doctors' vanity projects because they're like, what will I do with all this money? I'll buy a Margaret River winery, right? It's not that. It's families who have been multi-generational in in the valley. And so there's a real sense of authenticity and there's a real... um And it's quite... ah
Speaker: rustic in lots of ways, yeah even in the wines. yeah um And so um i think that's something that I embraced and I always wanted to like a pay homage to that. And so, yeah, we used Swan Valley grapes in in the in the vodka that won the very first award. So instead of just doing a, I wanted to do a hundred percent grape vodka and its fire water like it was It was great in theory, terrible in practice. um But then we so we still did, and we used a winemaker technique yeah and used 10% blend of the grape and then 90% cane and brought those together and created something really good. so
Speaker: It's always been a part of it like to just, and I worked with an amazing lady called Dale Tilbrook who's got a gallery and a food business in the indigenous food business in the valley to develop our six seasons gym.
Speaker: which So that's the Noongar calendar across there is six seasons. So I worked with Dale on that. So wherever we can, we use local ingredients and i mean, Swan Valley's a food bowl. And so we have access to really interesting ingredients there. So yeah, where where we can, we do.
Speaker: yeah And and's I'm really proud of the valley. yeah It's a great spot. And the birthplace of one of the most iconic breweries in Australia as well. Feral was there for yeah years that changed the palates of Australians as well. Brendan's a hockey player. so yeah entire And boxer. um Oh shit I didn't know that. He's been over there doing semi-pro fights and he sends the photos of his bloody and battered face. Oh god so Brendan after he sold got bigger for a bit? Yeah yeah yeah. He's not bigger anymore I'm guessing. No no he's become his new... We used to beat each other up on the hockey field I'm not doing that anymore. don' brownhouse kicked there He looked pretty beat beat up in the last photo I saw. with him yeah um
Speaker: Yeah, well I guess it's what was amazing about the Swan Valley as well, you kind of think, oh, you know, if you don't, if you've not been there before, it's so close to Perth as well. You can land at the airport and be in the heart of the Swan Valley in half an hour. kind of Yeah, 20 minutes. yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually, they had to change the rules because you know you get backpackers to come and pick your grapes and stuff. Because the Swan Valley is the only wine region in Australia that's within a metro area,
Speaker: the the visas didn't work. You couldn't do that picking as your country regional work. So they actually had to change the visa rules we were demo fishs because the Swan Valley is in inside a metro area. So yeah, and you got it's not just wine as well. It's chocolate and nougat and honey and macadamias and like that's and yeah, it's just a great little region and so compact.
Speaker: Yeah, fantastic. and um The last, that I mean that period, I guess coming into and out of COVID, I've got some very special gins that you launched during that, you know very rough trot period, which are prized, don't even know I'm going to do with them. They're just sitting on my shelf. I thought about opening a couple of times, I was like, nah, this is special. You rode those periods like an absolute champion. You went hard at them. yeahp You know, found ways to get through, but Yeah, talk to us about the last, I guess, five years since that COVID period. I thought you will that you were, you know, an absolute trooper and you you came at things in really creative, interesting ways. And that seemed to be like a really important focus for you and the business at that time. Yeah, so like we've always sort of,
Speaker: know how people say what's a usp and i was like oh fuck i don't know yeah but like um i think there's the best i've ever come up with is there's a bit of an old young's way we always try to take things with a just from it that doesn't have we still make gin like it's people have been doing that for like 300 years so there's nothing new there but you can always take new angles and just different tangents and so um i think just coming with like, hey, just intelligently irreverent is the way we sort of like, hey, it's not just like we're doing for something fucking dumb and stupid and and weird and just because it's weird. Like it's like, well, we're going to just do something weird because. yeah um And so covid you mentioned, like so this is when we started the gin club and we said, look, if people can't come to us, we'll send gin to them. And so we said, we're going to make a brand new gin every month forever, which is bold. Right? Understatement there. Yeah. And so we're now 70 editions in.
Speaker: yeah So we're coming up on six years. um And I think the one of the gins you might be relating to was the first one. and Like, it's fuck COVID. So um that was very much in my anger phase of lockdown. Like, now how you go through the stages of grief. I was very much still in anger. And...
Speaker: And so I literally tried to make the angriest gin I could and it was like full of pepper berry and chili and rage. yeah And like this much ginseng to make it all better. um And yeah, we made it 60% because the theory was if you didn't like it, you could wash your hands in it because like sanitiser is a bit hard to find. So um yeah, and people just still talk about that gin and it was it was a feisty gin, but we still made it good.
Speaker: yeah And that was about the time that we came up with the mantra, like, we've got our big manifesto, but we we also just simplified that down to no shit leaves the shed.
Speaker: um And it was like, so and that's really important when you're doing 70 different gins. like To be absolutely proud of every single one is it challenging. So yeah, we did that. And then we launched Gin Gin Gin finally. And then a year later, we opened the restaurant. So we did go hard. The theory was that what if we put our heads in the sand and just go la la la la la hope things will be good then that's probably not that smart had we done that we would been fine by the way because no one stopped drinking during covid um yeah exactly and especially craft spirits so um so we did we were flying during that period and ah and we had huge growth and we were really lucky like um endeavor came to us after those first wins not the other way around awesome Like imagine that now, like 300 people next door who are just banging on the door and saying, let me in, look at my gin, please. And Neff was like, fuck off. They're very excited to hear from all of them, I'm sure. um But yeah, so we were really lucky that we had that opportunities off those wins. And and so, yeah, and so...
Speaker: really right the way through to probably 20, 21, 22, it was just trying to keep up with demand, which is a good problem to have. yeah um But yeah, and then from there, like, potentially got too ambitious. yeah um And like said, like, and we did the crowdfund and which was a really interesting and and really humbling experience. I mean, to have like,
Speaker: a thousand people say we believe in your brand enough that we're going to put some money in and uh we raised 2.7 million dollars in 24 hours 22 hours and 45 minutes wow right it was that was your cap was it you hit it that quick yeah we hit our cap in yeah um me and my daughter like at midnight that day because it's like such a lead up and and the company's telling you that it's going to go well and you're like well i'll believe it when i see it and um And you've got a little back end, so you'll get to watch the numbers roll in. And so like at nine o'clock and two seconds, you're refreshing like no one's invested. But by nine o'clock and 45 seconds, someone had, you know, like, fuck.
Speaker: And then by like, we're at a million dollars like within an hour or something. And and so at midnight, there was like $27,000 to go. and I was like, do I stay up?
Speaker: Like to see if we, and I was like, fuck no, I haven't slept in days. So like I went to sleep and I thought, oh, it'll roll over while I'm asleep. But actually, um people other people went The next morning. Yeah, thankfully. And me and my daughter actually were sitting eating cornflakes watching just refreshing it like quarter to eight in the morning just watching the last couple of dollars tickle it now trickle in and then she i was like, okay, off to school. But it was a really cute moment.
Speaker: Yeah, it was a cute So yeah, so that that was really amazing. yeah um But then also, Coming out of the back of COVID suddenly like you saw this explosion in in a number of distilleries and you saw some tougher economic news. And so we're sitting there trying to put an East Coast sales team together and starting to develop this big project that we wanted to do. And so we burned a lot of cash.
Speaker: It's embarrassing personally, right? But we we had bold and ambitious plans and we and we actually delivered on those, but so to our detriment, to be perfectly honest. yeah And for those that don't know, what what what what were those plans? What did you so raise the money for? Yeah. so look, the first one was this. So we did two raises and the first one was this coast. First part was e coast expansion. Second part was production expansion. We had the restaurant, which we'd opened and then and then looking at export.
Speaker: um And then this idea of a cathedral of gin, which I think a few people would have seen. And so um that so we identified a piece of land which we bought and on the river in Song Valley. Amazing. I've driven past this piece of land every day for six, seven years.
Speaker: It's just like one day this will be mine. And and then it was. but um And then we had a design competition, international architecture competition for it. like And we did not hold back. like The people who designed the Oslo Opera House wow were one of the finalists. like Woha, who do that beautiful red building, I see a building in Singapore, like skyscraper. They were one of the people we invited to. like get so and And other Australian architects, including the guys who have now designed the Tassie football stadium. um So yeah, so yeah um so we had this big competition and this insane design won it. um ah
Speaker: That was the Tassie guys. yeah And so um that but that's a $30 million dollars bill. and so we raised basically saying hey we're going to develop the idea and we're going to develop the design and we're going to do all the all the um uh for it and and all of those things and all of the scoping and stuff and then yeah look and as this industry's got tougher which we were talking before the show starts like it's
Speaker: youre you're sitting there like saying, hey, we're gonna do all of these things and then you just like the bottom fours out of the market, you put an orange man in a white house and people get nervous and like it's and so the property developers who are sitting there saying, hey, we're gonna do this and suddenly just going, oh, well, risky, no, we're not gonna play here. And and so it all fell in a heap last year. so yeah, it was just tough. Timing could not have been any worse. ma The idea was right. The idea still is right. Look what, look what the cube's done for Darenberg, right? And, and not just for Darenberg. And this is one of the things that really excited me was it's also what it's done for McLaren Vale and what this could have done for the Swan Valley. Cause the Swan Valley for all its amazingness and it doesn't have that one iconic thing that you should visit. yeah So, uh,
Speaker: I still believe that the idea is right. It's still there. Absolutely. The design is still there. So we've just got to find the right time and you've got to be proper resource, properly resourced.
Speaker: I'm not ever going to put ourselves on a knife edge again to where I'm not sleeping for nine months because I think I'm going to lose my house. so can't be there again. yeah like If we do it, we've got to have...
Speaker: the financial backing, the dollars in the in the bank and then we go do it. Yeah. And so you run into difficulty over the last 18 months. Yeah. um Yeah. Talk us through that process. and sure there's, you know, I mean, God, James, you have and Crafting Pint has covered so many businesses that have, you know, been in the same situation. It's it's obviously an unfortunate position. And, you know, it's it's so hard on founders, as you would know, but um yeah, Talk to us about sort of what you went through and and how you got out of it. I think a lot of time founders, their whole sense of self-worth can be tied to their business, which is not healthy.
Speaker: But you almost become known as your business. And so when you see people from school, at the barbecue or something, they want to talk to you about your business because they've seen you in the paper or they've seen the crowdfund video and they've seen the crazy cathedral and and they want they're interested. and But like everything you end up talking about is is about your business.
Speaker: And like people want to talk about gin. So that's like, it's a good thing, right? So it'd be the exact same thing for brewers as well. i knew before, i I launched the Crafty Pint. Now refer to me as Crafty. like, I'm James. They're like, no, know, you're Crafty. when you tie yourself so closely and when you so can, like, we knew we were running out of cash. yep And that's, but...
Speaker: Firstly, there's denial when you're like, no, no, no, we're going to make it. And then, and there is a bit of head in the sand and, um, which is the most dangerous thing you can do. And then you get reminded at 2am when you wake up in a cold sweat every night that like, fuck, this is not great. It's still above ground waiting for you. Yeah. Um, and so, um the decision to actually go and seek help was the turning point really, because otherwise I just would have plowed it into the ground.
Speaker: Right. And i was lucky enough, I ah talked to a guy who was a director of of a brewery who actually went through administration as well. yeah yeah um And he was incredibly generous. And I was like, broke down in front of him. and I was like, I think I'm going to lose my house. I think my kids are going to lose the house. And then it was like, there's a way like there's administration isn't there for you to just solve your problems magically. Administration is there to help businesses survive as well. It's it's it's there to make sure that the
Speaker: that your creditors get the best deal and that they get a return but it's also if you consider your staff as creditors that they still have a job and that they can continue and and so if you can have an outcome and a lot of times it doesn't happen because it gets left too late and there's nothing left and and so it goes administration liquidation unfortunately but if you can get in in there early and we own this piece of land so we had some assets so we actually had something that we could give back um so we planned it out and we we talked we got talked to the right people and and we worked with a firm to help us get through it um and then you you appoint your administrators um we closed the restaurant so because we didn't want to have those people just lose their jobs so we we closed the restaurant gave everyone notice gave people time to go and find their next job And then we went into administration and and that's that was hard because people are reaching out to say, are you okay? And was like so embarrassed, but also, yeah,
Speaker: That was actually a bit of a ah a relief for me because now we're doing something about it. We're we're doing something to make things better. And so um and i had something to do. i had to basically save this business and work with the administrators to save it and make sure that we got out through the other side. So for me, it was actually the preceding before we said, okay, we need help. that was That was the hardest because it was just me at night just going, fuck.
Speaker: um And so we we came out um and we came out, we were only in administration for five weeks. The people, the administrators were fantastic. They worked really hard with us to make sure that there was a business on the other side. And yeah, and we kept all of our old young stuff.
Speaker: We had to close the restaurant, but at least those people all went on to to to new jobs, which was really important to me. And we kept the, and we had weddings. So I was like, I'm not fucking with people's weddings. So like we still make sure that we did all of those and wed we looked at, we still delivered all of those. We just did events. And yeah, you come out pretty lean on the other side and very humbled. But also
Speaker: like We're not the first business to go through this, not the last. I'm not saying you ever should try to get into this situation. i never want to be back there ever again. But like, um it was, yeah, like I've learned so much over the last 18 months and um it's nice to feel like a level of creativity and spark come back. Like,
Speaker: We celebrated our 10th birthday in in May this year. yep And so that's sort of six months-ish after we came out of admin. And to start thinking about what could we do and what could we do to to mark this and and to celebrate this was suddenly just like...
Speaker: creative juices are coming out like this is why I do this like and that was that'd been missing for a while now it's tough or certainly hard to to to be that when you just feel like you've got this pressure on you so to to come back and release new products for our birthday and we've got one that we've released and two that we've still got to come like this is where you start going fuck yes this is amazing and we did a really cool theme for um Juniper Society this year so it's all about travel theme and the retro travel posters and this idea of a trip around the world and using cities as a inspiration for each gin that's been a lot of fun as well so we've done Bangkok and Cairo Zanzibar Colombo Dubrovnik yeah we're having so much fun with them So that's good. And what's it been like, and I guess, functional business perspective since coming out of administration? are your relationships with suppliers different? you know has it Has it changed the in the manner in which you have to work or have people sort of so faith and trust in to keep working the same way? Yeah, look, we worked pretty hard to make sure that
Speaker: we were pretty much up to date with all our payments actually before we went into administration. So there was one big bear of a debt, which was the ATO. But we made sure that there was there was no and not no little guy, that no no Sparky or or water supplier or something who hadn't been paid before we went in. And so that no...
Speaker: No one. So those people actually always got paid. Yeah. So, um, which was pretty important to me. I didn't want anyone to, I mean, to be affected by basically me fucking this business up for a bit. Yeah. And so we've actually kept our relationships pretty well and we communicated and and, again, the administrators were really great and we traded all the way through. So we we never missed a beat. Like, we were still delivering to Endeavour. We were still delivering to to Coles. We were still able to trade, which was great. So there was never a pause. I mean, it's still in the marketplace. ah I've been out doing tastings and a bit lately and people like, heard you guys went under and it's understandable. You have to prove that there's there's value in you continuing that. there's actually we had to like The directors had to chuck some more money back in to make it work. yeah So and yeah and so we so we're actually we managed to, and our were really good and now
Speaker: even our investors like I think having some good news in the last couple of months in the last month makes it even better but it's just like yeah let's let's touch on that so again awards come to your rescue once again i mean it's incredible for everything you've gone through I mean this time I mean these awards from the ADI they must have been like absolutely huge ah massive like to to go through all of that and then like it was nice to celebrate our birthday and actually celebrate it so and for our birthday though we actually just went back and um invited the 195 people who had worked for us over 10 years um back to just come along and have a drink at the restaurant and so that was really nice and that that was sort of mid-may and then actually the week before, but under embargo, we get this email saying, hey, your results from ADI are here. And you start reading through and you're like, true for you, true you. And then I was like,
Speaker: best international gin, world's best gin, and then best gin and tonic, which each of those you would normally go and shout from the rooftops, but you're like, was like getting fire so to get them both at the same time was just crazy. So like, and the the gin and tonic thing, like that's, that was 250 different gins that they just did a, the exact same serve to all the judges and And for your gin to come out on top of and in the way that most people drink your gin is was insane. So that's 1829. And then common gin comes in and just fucking wins the best best Navy strength and then best international gin. And you're like, shit, this is... And it was just so nice to have something. Thank we kept going. Yes, exactly. And it's a vindication of the fact that you, we still make good booze yeah and that, and that there, there is something, there was a ah reason to get through this, all this heart heartache and hard work and, and tough times because on the other side of it, yeah, deep down and at our, at our base, we make bloody good piss. Yeah, that's awesome, man. and Thank you so much for your candour on that. We really, really appreciate it. And i think we might um yeah have a little break, gather ourselves, and come back for part two very soon. Wipe away a tear or two.
Speaker: Cheers.
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Speaker: Welcome back to the Full Measure podcast. We're here with James Young having the best time chatting all things Western Australian gin, complexities, yeah, the Swan Valley. And the other thing that we really want to dive into now is I guess the growth of the Australian gin category, you've played a massive part of that. um It's a big, big story. and There's so many people, so many stories involved. But I guess the other, well, before we get onto the progression of Australian gin, how have you seen that progression and that growth and where do you see Australian Gin currently sitting?
Speaker: So interesting. I said I had opinions, right? Look, we have, over the last, let's call it 10 to 15 years, we've seen this explosion of the Australian craft scene. Certainly in terms of numbers. yeah And also certainly in terms of quality.
Speaker: There are spectacular products being made in every category, whether it be gin, whiskey, rum, etc. right um I think that Australian gin has...
Speaker: gone through a few different phases. We had a lemon myrtle phase very early on. we Didn't like that one. Where every gin taste smelt like soap. like I think it was literally we all signed a charter, thou shalt include lemon myrtle in thy gin. of us felt like that. um Yeah, I mean, judging back then, early doors, was it could be a bit of a a bit of a grind. um I think we've got over that. yeah But...
Speaker: sensible and interesting use of native botanicals I think is is definitely part of our part of our signature. I think bright, fresh, citrusy, clean gins are a big part of our industry because it's fucking hot am I allowed to swim? yeah You might have already done it once or twice. um And so like suits suits our climate which I think is really really good and really important as well and and I think you said innovation like wine gins. I mean just literally not a category until Stu and the guys and Cam put decided to rest gin on Shiraz skins. So we've we've done some really interesting things here and I think that s I get to go to a few different conferences and I've been to Ginposium in the UK and there's so much chat about Australian styles and Australian gyms um and that what's happening in the Australian scene and you've seen awards whether that be us or Four Pillars or Never Never and and and beyond. You've seen some great international success. So i think that we have set up, we've done some amazing work into in terms of creating amazing product yeah and building and an industry that makes amazing product. yeah
Speaker: What we haven't done is realised the potential of this industry, which is... When my parents were growing up, they drank Blue Nunn and Matus and some French Claret and stuff like that.
Speaker: And the Australian wine industry didn't have to say French wine is shit because it's not. that What they said was, why aren't you drinking Australian? Because there's great Australian wine too. yeah And so Australian wine went from, I don't know, maybe 20, 30% of the market to of what's consumed in Australia.
Speaker: And beer's been a little bit different because beer, because of the freshness thing, like um has always had a big swathe of the market in Australia. um But spirits, we haven't, like we're still sitting in this tiny, tiny percentage. And so spirits are so different to those other two categories in that over time, there i have no doubt, I still 100% believe this is the opportunity for our industry, which is that, again, Bombay is great.
Speaker: Like, people will say, oh, I would never drink Gordon's that shit. I was there's nothing wrong with Gordon's. This is bloody good gin and tanker is the center of the gin universe that's where everything expands out from right so there's nothing wrong with those gins they're all great but why aren't you drinking old youngs or four pillars or manly spirits or never never or prohibition or west winds or whatever right there's that's our opportunity and we've become mired in the last few years by this ridiculous
Speaker: ah overly generous and far too low a barrier to entry structural thing in in the in the tax system where there is a massive incentive to join the industry and a massive disincentive to grow.
Speaker: We need people I did some rough numbers. Like if we collect $3 billion dollars in excise, it's probably roughly 100 million-ish bottles. um And so that means if if you're going to take a percent, you need to make a ah million bottles.
Speaker: we've We've got maybe one producer who's getting up that way, but we if we want to have 60, 70%, we need 60 people making yeah a million bottles. And this's this's people are gri at a capping out at 12,000, for fuck's sake. like It's not going to work unless we give...
Speaker: The incentive is too generous early and too mean late so that you can't get the growth of, you're not seeing people making, going jumping from 60,000 bottles to 100,000 bottles to a million bottles.
Speaker: So many people that are friends of mine who started in this industry at similar times, you actually see people choose to make less. You get to the cap and put your head above him, someone comes to the back. Absolutely. Get your head back down. We went to government and they have given us support and was well-meaning support. No one thought this would a bad thing.
Speaker: And the governance' not like we we went to government and and they have given us support and it was well-meaning support and like no one thought this would be a bad thing and it I love the fact that the government is supporting this industry. it's um But the government supported this industry because of the picture I just laid out, right? And because that's the start of it. First, we can dominate Australia. Then we can follow a beautifully well-worn path that wine has blazed for us and beer has blazed for us into international. And then there's people in London and go why aren't you drinking British gin? You're drinking all Aussie stuff. Yeah, exactly. And... and um And so, I mean, think about the markets that are to out just to our north, whether that be China, and you think about the opportunities for brandy and and whiskey and India. Like, Australia can be such a hub, and we're so renowned for making good quality product, which we do. No one at this conference is making rubbish booze, really. Like, we make great booze. um
Speaker: It's the, how are we gonna grow our industry so that we are 60, 70% of the Australian total? And look, there will come investment. Like the Australian wine industry didn't like just stay in tiny small family businesses. Like there will be opportunities for investment and I'm sure Diageo and Pernod aren't gonna just let, give that up.
Speaker: Just go, oh, okay, Australians, you just have the money. um So I hear it. and There's a little bit that happens in beer a bit. yeah yeah um but um So there'll be the investment, yeah but the jobs will be here. The booze will be made here. the The opportunities and the manufacturing and all of those things can be actually done from here, which is a great success story in front of us. But right now, where there's ah there's a choke point and and it has to change. yeah yeah And do you think...
Speaker: Is there anything more we can give to consumers to get them to understand this piece? Like, does it do we have do we have to be more consumer conscious? Do we have to be, you know, not only are we talking to them about the brilliance of Australian gin, Australian vodka, you know, X amount of other categories, but I mean, do we also have to,
Speaker: I think there's there's a careful balance there, isn't there? So we don't want to sort of keep beating the consumer over the head. We want to keep talking about what makes Australian spirits great so they want to buy them. But then, you know, there is this structural issue that we also need to get out there. So how how do you balance those sort of two? Yeah, so I think there's a few things. I think there's some really great initiatives that are starting to be advocated for. So...
Speaker: um The first one is that we actually have done alright job. Like we have got Australian spirits onto the shelves and and big so swathes of of of retail shelves have Australian spirits on it. That's great. yeah right What we now need is, and we can have all levels.
Speaker: You can have single cast stuff at $350 and you can have Starwood come in and say, hey, we want to make Australian whiskey accessible and keep it under $100. They're both...
Speaker: laudable right and where we'll we can have growth is i think where we can if we can get the growth in volume therefore the better better cogs and better um and better efficiency then we can have gins that are sitting on a shelf next to Bombay or next to Gordon's or next to Tancrate or next to Johnny Walker that give an Australian a choice. yeah So we've actually done a really good job of establishing that there is Australian craft spirits. Tick, first job done. The next job is how do we get the growth in the industry so that we're long-term sustainable and can start taking market share. And that's where the head above the fence thing is is the danger, right? Because if enough people's heads get knocked off, then no one's going to put their head up, right? Yeah, that's right. um so
Speaker: And then you can do things like the idea of Spirits Australia, which like Wine Australia, where you can start promoting... domestically to say, hey, let's drink more Australian spirits and then internationally. So I think the the pathways there, we just need the people with the scale to be able to to deliver it. Yeah. yeah and And maybe it's the million dollar question. We're going back to that sort of yeah head of above the parapet thing.
Speaker: What do you think the way forward is on that particular choke point? Again, i have a theory. Look, the government, when they went to from 100 to 350, went from saying, hey, you pay your excise and we give you back 60% the month after to just 100% remission.
Speaker: That created this artificial gap So at least you're paying something. So the difference between starting distillery and paying zero on your first 12,000 bottles and me paying 32, which is going to get bigger every time because of eating indexation. So in five years time, the difference is not going to be $30, it'll be $40. And five years after that, it'll be $50. Right. So um the if you If you just went back to 50%, keep the it's about to become but you'd need to make
Speaker: twenty four thousand bottles to get your full four hundred and you'd pay 15 bucks a bottle along the way and so then the difference between me paying 30 and the person who's paying 15 is manageable because i can market better i can deliver more i can i can probably get my cogs better so i might be able five bucks better on my cogs it's manageable also As I go to 40, well then the first the first your first bottles would be 20 bucks a bottle.
Speaker: Yeah. So you both both would go up. Yeah. But you're just going to be exacerbating this over time. And so I think that would be the simplest because if you go back to government and say, hey, it used to be this.
Speaker: you'd change it with a stroke of a pen key, you'd change back with a stroke of pen please. There's still the benefit is there, but by the time you're making sort of 24,000 bottles for argument sake, you've actually got to get away from just doing your local markets and you are paying something.
Speaker: yeah And I think that's, and that's, it probably takes away the incentive for the pubs to just put in their own stills and things like that, which we see in WA in particular. Yeah, right. Because the pubs don't have the pokies to support them. And so they'll there and 350 grand off our vodka bill. Fuck yeah, we're going to do that. Right. So, um,
Speaker: I think the incentive is less if you still got to pay something and a $15 difference and you've actually got to install the stills and you've got to run the stills and everything up. It becomes probably not as just as generous. Yeah. And then it gets left to the professionals. So that, that would be the, I think the simplest way I've seen other ones where it gets stepped up and a few things, but I think,
Speaker: Government, like, to me, the simplest way is to go back to the government and say, hey, what you had before, can we just have that back? yeah um Because I think there's, we're only, mean, what's wild is I think we're only,
Speaker: I think this July we're four years into this. So it's not like it's been there forever. yeah yeah It's only been four years. so And for the first time ever, as far as I'm aware, the government's actually seen their excise from spirits go down.
Speaker: And it's because they're handing out um ex excise licences like candy and everyone's like, $350,000 for me, And but made my way and it's not It's not sustainable. I don't think there's a single person in our industry who's thriving right now. That's not good. like if If you've got that much support, $350,000 per distillery and no one's thriving, like that's not something's not right. yeah Something is not right. and
Speaker: the government doesn't owe everybody a handout. Like so, like, and beer, it's harder. You've got to make a lot more beer because of like lower lower ABV and and so and and lower excise. So you just make truckloads more. No one starts a winery to take advantage of the wet. Like you've got to plant stuff and you've got to worry about the sun and you like, this so but the barriers to entry in spirits are so low that it's just, it's it's not quite right. And we're also not,
Speaker: in the same life cycle as beer and wine. So we need slightly different incentives. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, man, tricky times. It is. um But I guess back to more positive, nicer things, maybe to to finish up. um Bloody hell, I mean, it's such it's been such an amazing chat. I mean, you've taken us through the highs, you've taken us through the challenges, the rebuilds, and now, you know, the recent international recognition. Once yeah more, highly awarded, just to emphasise the point. Get out there and drink the stuff. It is amazing What are we thinking about the next decade of old youngs? Where do you think you'll be?
Speaker: You look you feel you seem a bit more excited and a bit more energetic than some of the previous times I've talked to you. Yeah, so look, um, We will always make our gins. We've got another like the next year 10 years is another 120 gins, right? so that's first things it just this mind bo yeah um there's there's but There's other things like we're in a wine region.
Speaker: So to me, brandy is the thing that the the thing that get put the sparkle in my eyes 14, 15 years ago. yeah um that That put the sparkle in my 14, 15 years ago. People can see that spark when I start talking about brandy. I think it is...
Speaker: we're getting to a point that everything's cyclical. I think that if people can work out that Scotch is whiskey, then they can work out Cognac as brandy. I think the advantages of where Scotch is, it's biggest strength and it's biggest weakness is the really strict rules.
Speaker: You've got the exact same thing in Cognac. yeah we can play We can be innovative with grape varieties, with woods, with with um stock still types, all of those things, distilling distillation techniques. so And we've got a phenomenal wine industry who can provide us phenomenal base ingredients and base materials. So that, to me, just all rights itself. And ah I see the tiniest green shoots everywhere. in Brandy that I saw 14, 15 years ago. And remember, like, when i when I pitched to Gin Gin Gin to Stranger and Stranger, i wasn't the 17th person that week that back then. Like, there was something new and something that they got excited about. um
Speaker: i Yeah, there were 30 distilleries when I started 10 years ago yeah in Australia. um So yeah, so brandy is definitely a part of it. yeah um ah i would love to still have that, the cathedral built. they down that So that that' so like a yeah, that's I think brandy, gin cathedral,
Speaker: and don't know some sleep some stage maybe but having described your sort of add career up until this point yeah it's it sounds like you're committed to this one yeah do you know why if you found your place you know why because i'm completely unemployable now why do you how i feel after 16 years of crafty pie there's no yeah journalism yes i've got to make this work yeah like what do you do with an ex graphic designer slash hockey coach slash advertising guy slash gin maker What job does that guy get? So yeah, this one has to work. I don't know. You know, so speech giver at, you know, occasions, a rater. Yeah, I don't know. Just happy making gin and making spirits. Well, we're happy drinking it, mate. So um yeah, look, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for for all the info, all the insight. I know there's going to be so many people out there that that get a lot out of that i know i did so uh yeah once again thank you so much for for joining us on the podcast mate thank you so much for having me on and it's honor to be like amongst the first to be on it very exciting congratulations on the venture thank you mate it's very cool cheers thank you everyone cheers
Speaker: The Full Measure podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. For all partnership inquiries, reach out to c Craig Williams, craig at thefullmeasure.com.au. To keep up to date with everything happening in Australian spirits, visit thefullmeasure.com.au and subscribe.
