Transcript
Speaker: it takes It takes me back to like, we used to have an apricot tree in my ah my backyard when i was a kid. And when the apricots would drop and they start to go off and rotten, you know, they have this really funky character to it. um And then, you you know, you get leather, you get tobacco, you get all of this crazy spice. So the characters that are there in the ferment, the molasses themselves, um what they're able to do at the best of this style. And they refer to it as hogo, and hogo is the style that comes out of Jamaica, particularly distilleries like Hampton and Ray and Nephew, are you know, synonymous with this style. It's big, it's earthy, it's funky, it's not for everyone.
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Full Measure podcast. We're back once again with our weekly chat of what's going on, i guess, within our four walls, but also the the wider world of booze. My name is James Smith, founder of the website, and here with ah Luke McCarthy, our editor. Hello. Great to be with you, mate. And it smells rather different in here today. um i think we've you know we've gone into these dry up until now, but you know if you're watching if you're watching on YouTube, I guess you can even watch on some the other platforms now, sure you may have noticed some some bottles and glasses on the table, but i have a very strong aroma wafting around me at the minute. and not sure if that's... Totally needed it to a clock on a on Monday afternoon. um But yeah, so what's what's the's the theme of the opening part of this chat? Yes, well, that's it. The smell in the room gets to the theme of what we're looking at this week, which is Australian rum. um Now, i in some ways, as I've as i finished off this piece, um
Speaker: I feel like it's something that I've been writing for maybe 12 years now. um It's such a big, in-depth, crazy story. And yeah, for consumers, for industry, for distillers, it's it's a moving piece, especially for the last sort of five, six years. there's been a lot of dramatic change in the rum space where, you know, previously when I, for instance, wrote the Australian Spirits Guide in 2015-16,
Speaker: and sixteen um there was only, i could barely find seven or eight rums to taste for for that particular publication. And now we're looking at you know anywhere between sort of maybe 50 to 120 different rum expressions out there from anywhere between probably 30 to 40 different distilleries around the country. so um the rum side of things has exploded in a very short period of time. And the feature that I'm looking at is gonna explore the funk in rum a little bit. um and that's The wilder side. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that that wild um wild yeast, wild fermentation side. um
Speaker: Looking at the different producers who are exploring that style, especially Killick. We're lucky here in Melbourne where we're based ah that Killick Distillery out in Belgrave and the Dandenong Ranges produce um what I argue is probably one of the most distinctive products complex expressions of Australian spirit you'll find anywhere. um At $99 a bottle, you can jump on and buy the Overproof Killick Silver, which is 59% alcohol by volume. um And, you know, I'd describe it somewhere between um tropical... you know, banana, ripe banana, overripe banana. it takes It takes me back to like, um we used to have an apricot tree in my and my backyard when I was a kid. And when the, you know, the apricots would drop and they start to go off and rotten, you know, have this really funky character to it. um And then, you you know, you get leather, you get tobacco, you get all of this crazy spice. So the characters that are there in, the ferment, the masses themselves, um what they're able to do at the best of this style. And they refer to it as hogo, and hogo is the style that comes out of Jamaica, particularly distilleries like Hampton um and Ray and Nephew, are you know synonymous with this style. It's big, it's earthy, it's funky, um it's not for everyone. I'm assuming that on the back of their labels it says, smells not like the rotten fruit from Luke's childhood back garden.
Speaker: Yeah, well, that's the thing they're struggling with. And that's that's why I asked Callan when I was in there. Callan and his brother Ben founded Killick in 2019 after previously, you know, been a long time in in in brewing with that little brewing co. And, you know, they've...
Speaker: I think what they do is exceptional and you know, world rum awards have come their way as well for for how unique and distinctive their style is. But certainly Australians are struggling with this style. And I guess is that is that part of the reason, I guess, you know, people have been paying attention and from very start, realised we sort of, you know, touched upon brandy and yeah some styles of gin, whisky, like sort of looking to, I guess, do some in-depth analysis of a lot of the key spirits categories over over the opening weeks and months of the website. And is part of the reason you focused on the funkier, wilder side of rum is to sort of let people know, hey, you know whatever you might think of rum, if you're not someone who has done a deep dive, there's probably a lot more to it than you actually realized. Yeah. And so having talked to matt Hobson from Nildas Brand and Kavu over the weekend, and having talked to Steve McGarry behind Sydney Rum Co and former Beanley, Master Distiller, having talked to Quinton as well from Husk. Husk Distiller is up in Timbalgum in Northern New South Wales.
Speaker: The difficulty with Australia is Bundy. It's just no way, there's no getting around it. um it's It's a pillar of the industry. It's so it's loved with such fergent passion sorry fervent passion that um you know There's no discussion of Australian rum that doesn't involve Bundaberg because what we've found over many, many years now, me doing tastings and especially the guys making it and having people into their cellar doors, trying to encourage them to explore different styles of rum is that we're just so fixated on this idea of Bundy being what Australian rum tastes like. um And for anyone who you know prefers a style of rum that's outside that, and broadly speaking, we're talking sort of light, golden style. um Bundy as you know has some really interesting peculiar notes that have been developed there over a very long time. But on the whole, it's pretty light. It's pretty easy. um it's It's not going to challenge you in in any sort of way. Whereas you know if we have a nose of what we've got in our glass right here, um
Speaker: This is, you know, this is on the softer side for Nildes Berendam, but this is some of those estuary, those high estuary characters coming through. um A lot of quality maturation and sharing podcasts here as well.
Speaker: um And, you know, you get some of the beautiful, rich, sort of leathery, spicy characters. Yes, I'd say there the spiciness is is really to the fore, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. um And so, and you know, this is just the start. If we had a, know, sort of glad we don't have a Killik overproof in here because i dont I think you'd be smelling it for days. And, you know, Burdekin Rum, um be produced by Jackie Chan, Jackie Chan, I always got, everyone calls Jackie Chan, his name's Jason Chan, um who is an absolute legend of the hospitality industry, previously involved with Westwinds. What he's doing with Burdekin Rum um up in Queensland as well is incredible. Single origin, really focusing on individual farms, trying to, like I guess, explore that word that no one likes in spirits, the terroir of sugarcane. So, yeah, when you've got these producers right across across the country really doing rum in a new, fascinating, distinctive way, there's just so much excitement in that category. And the other thing is that we have a lot of heritage to draw it upon as well. and the heritage side of it is probably something we're going to go into in the piece because you know the heritage of, say, Australian whiskey makers is completely different. where
Speaker: When Bill Lark was founding Tasmanian Whiskey and, I guess, sort of kickstarting modern Australian distilling, he didn't really have ah a comparative historical brand to to produce against.
Speaker: Very different when it comes to rum. And so Matt Hobson, for instance, at Carver, sort of tells me in the piece that That's potentially one of the things that's so made the rum category a bit more difficult for producers and I guess for consumers in Australia over the last sort of 10, 15, 20 years. So yeah, look, there's just so much to talk about in this category. But i guess also those sort of conversations you talk about, you know, everyone's thinking that Australian rum is Bundy.
Speaker: The same conversation has been happening for the last 30 odd years in beer, going, you know, beer doesn't have to be this pale lager. It can be something, know, our main guest or our our next guest on the main interview later in this week, Dave Vitale, that's part of his thing with Starwood. yeah It's like, you know, this has to be distinct and different and that's the story you have to tell. And I guess, you know. It's something to focus on and something to you know it becomes the story because you're having to tell the story of why this isn't what you were expecting. yeah Yeah, definitely. So following our you know big discussion of all of these um yeah you know of all of this side of the industry in depth, I'm then going to rock into a tasting, ah which we'll put out later in the week, of... Look, it's going to be like a holistic look at the, I guess the challenger brands would be one way of of framing it. You know, like Nildes Barrandum, like Husk. um Husk is, you know, famous for being um this beautiful pure cane style. You know, everything that goes into that rum is grown on that one property. it's It's such an incredible achievement there. um And really trying to encourage people to sort of broaden their rum palette um and engage with what is, you know, the agricultural identity of of that part of the world. You know if you look at Northern New South Wales, right up, um I think someone said to me it was almost 2,500 kilometers of cane growing region. um yeah know it's just
Speaker: It's staggering that we have this incredible sugar cane industry here, which is just being celebrated. um Landline, I'm a massive landline devotee. I watch it like almost religiously every week. um They've just put out a great program, which I encourage everyone to look at. If you want to understand, I guess, the heritage of Australian cane growing and the story there, um it's you know It's a really remarkable story and I think our run producers are engaging with that in a really fun, dynamic and and interesting way. and I'm just hoping that we can get more people in Australia to sort of come with us. well That was the the origins of um the hoot tree. One of the original distilleries was because they were growing sugar cane outside Kununara. They don't now, yeah but they were at the time. and i think you know having local produce that you can celebrate, why not it?
Speaker: why not do it Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Spike Desert, you know, famously um this year, the Spike Desert Trophy at Melbourne Royal, well, I judged, was won by by Neil Desperandum. And it's ah it's an amazing, I i was very lucky to go up to the hoochery back in 2015 and chatted to Spike, obviously sweltering bloody hot in the Kimberley there. I know you spent some time out there as well. Yeah, still probably for me, one of the most incredible, amazing experiences of my life going up to the Kimberley and spending some time with Spike and finding out how he went about it and then you know thinking more deeply about the sugarcane industry there and the potential for it um unfortunately it ultimately um closed down and then they changed to the way they were going about producing their rum as a result so yeah the agricultural identity of of Australian and especially Queensland rum is something that um is just yeah really fascinating and something that I hope more people will yeah get to know more of when they read these pieces? I think with most things, well, in the world, but especially in the world of, you know, booze, craft booze, whatever you want to call it, the more you scratch the surface, the more you start peeling layers away. There's there's always more to find out, um which I guess is, you know, why we're here. That's it. We are here. to peel the layers for you and and tell you what lies within. um Well, that's awesome. So we we'll include a link in the show notes to your feature on rum. And as you said, look out later on in the week, if you're following us on socials Full Measure Mag or just keeping an the website, we'll have the tasting featuring some of your favorites. um New favorites, hopefully. New favorites. Yeah, broad array of rums. But we'll come and talk about sort of the rest of the guess happenings in the world of booze um after a short break. Sounds great.
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Speaker: Welcome back. James Smith here once again with Full Measure editor Luke McCarthy. um From the world of rum to the world of Trump, which I guess has the word rum in it, which is a really terrible segue, but I've said it now, you're going have to deal with it. Luke, you wanted to tell us a little bit about what's been going on, is this ongoing trade war, and the impact it's actually having on our shores.
Speaker: Yeah, so definitely I think what we want to do here at the Full Measure is keep an eye at sort the high-level stuff that's happening um internationally. And... Certainly one thing that um is not you know necessarily unique to spirits, but um it does have a big role to play in how spirits are engaged with, consumed, traded. um you know The US has decided to ban all imports of Canadian spirits. This follows sort of tip for tap measures that have come about between the two countries over recent years since um since Trump decided to go on his own. tariffs sort of escapade. And it's something that I know Australian producers are thinking about and looking at because you know there are a lot of people who are looking at the Australian market. And andve you know you mentioned Dave Vitale before in the podcast, you know we're going to find out what it was like for Dave to try and enter that market. Thank God they're they're not doing that now. um I don't know what that would mean um and what it will mean for for anyone sort of dabbling in the australian and sorry in the US market moving forward. um
Speaker: It's certainly something that you know we we talked about Chris Hemsworth a few weeks ago um and and Archie Rose. um I think Australian producers want some certainty about what it is to be entering the Australian market. And certainly, um you know considering we are such enormous consumers of American whiskey, um and Canadian whiskey for that matter as well in Australia. um It's, yeah, I guess concerning as to what might happen there in the future. And unfortunately, spirits constantly get dragged into these debates and battles. And what is the impact specifically on the Australian market from what's happening and what's developing right now? So from some chats to some people over the weekend, some bar owners in particular, um and some people in the distribution world, we're starting to see different things happen at the price of American whiskeys. So potentially some whiskeys, American whiskeys are going to maybe decrease in price, become a little bit more available because countries are reacting against American whiskey um in pretty severe ways in some cases. and It's also throwing um a bit of a sour light, I guess, on American whiskey products generally, which is a huge shame because there's just been so much incredible work done in that space for the last 20 years. um It would be yeah a huge loss for the industry if suddenly consumers around the world don't want to engage with American whiskey because of the actions of their administration. So there's a lot of high level stuff going on there. And yeah, you know, Australia one way or another is, is you know, has to deal with it and has to, I guess, confront it. And, you know, we mentioned last week that the trade negotiation, sorry, the trade, the Austrade tasting that I was in, i was talking to one of the gentlemen, um who is in control, I guess, of navigating this on the ground and the complexity involved is staggering and I'm very glad I don't have his job, that's for sure. So so yeah, look, it's it's one to watch for sure. Yeah, bit of a watch this space, yeah. And I guess um we've added a couple of new listings to our directory over the last week, one of which is very very much, at least with some of their products, looking to, I guess, compete with some of the... American imports coming over here. So that Blue Sky Drinks, and home to a number of you know well-known or they hope to become well-known and brands out there on the market. That's right. Yes. so Blue Sky, what a fantastic story. It doesn't come without its complexity, of course. so They've gathered together this incredible portfolio of drinks and it was such ah such a joy writing up ah their listing and and sort of diving into their story in more depth. I have known the Ned Whiskey story from from the beginning. i was sort of someone who had spent a lot of time on the ground investigating that story um and working with the distillers. And look, I'm a huge fan of the Ned Whiskey project. It's um it's going to be incredible to see how American style Australian whiskey can progress moving forward because as as I mentioned, you know as one of the biggest um consumers of American whiskey in the world, in Australia, um If we could find a way to, you know, um tackle, I guess, this love that people have for Jack and Jim, there's no doubt that, you know, we have so many rusted on fans of American whiskey brands. um Fingers crossed, you know, the whippersnappers of the world, the Ned Whiskies of the world, um you know, the Tiger Snakes over in WA as well can can find an audience here and to sort of, yeah, maybe um convince people to to get behind them. Yeah. And there's a number of brands that they have listed on their page. We'll just include a link in the in the show notes. But um one of the that's going to have a bit bit of big news coming up soon, I think it's been you reported in some place already. we're going to wait until the doors are pretty much ready to open. yeah But their Solos Agave, they're going to be opening their cellar door venue on the Whitsundays. So we're just waiting for our private jet to Pull up, there's a little bit of roadworks going on on Sydney Road, so it may struggle to get in. Maybe that's why they haven't turned up so far. Yeah, probably. That own that that looks like it's going to be a exciting opening.
Speaker: Definitely. um you know all By all accounts, it's the largest agave farm outside of Mexico, basically. And now to have a cellar door opening alongside it so people can go there and really witness what it is to be... you know, farming agave in Australia, which, know, there's a huge, i'm I'm currently also working on an agave feature, which will, which will come out in, in, in the next few weeks. And what an incredible project and story. And the fact that Australia can play in this space, you know, geographically, there's not a lot of countries that can grow agave with any sort of success. Um, we're one of them and that we now have people turning that agave into delicious agave spirit, and I guess in the Mexican style, and trying to put a unique Australian know hallmark on it with, I guess that word Terwarrigan coming back and to see, you know, if we can find ah a way to tell, ah i guess, an Australian story about flavor and, and agricultural identity here as well through those spirits. So yeah, the blue sky project is just absolutely fascinating. I encourage everyone to take a look at it. um I cannot, how are we getting up to the Whitsundays? How are we going to bloody make it work? Dave, if you're listening, there's a mate there's a space there for a couple of invites. we We'd love to head up. um But yeah, absolutely encourage everyone to to have a look and get behind it. Yeah, and the other new listing, which will be up this week as well, Bakery Hill. You've got a a long and sort of you know flourishing relationship with those guys. it was actually the first distillery I ever visited in Australia. think could have been, um maybe the Crafty Pint was live. I'm assuming it was. It was when I was doing an odd little bit of I writing all manner of things for various parts of the age, travel pieces, whatever. But I was sent out, i think, for the Saturday Age to go and and see David many years ago at his Bayswater when he was just in the, you know, it was almost like a prison log, really. Just the grey walls. It was a little bit bleak. And the rose of rose. And I remember going out there and hearing his story and i like, God, you're like Walter White of Whiskey.
Speaker: But then trying the whiskey and being like, oh my God, they're they're fantastic. yeah and But you've you've obviously had a much more involved relationship over the years and yeah excited to have those those guys jumping on board. Yes, yes. I have known Andrew Baker and David in particular for a long time. David used to come in all the time. We used amazing chats about... Sorry, he used to come into Whiskey and Almond all the time um and he'd be giving us whiskey and talking us through the latest projects he was working on. And then, yeah, I've known Andrew for a long time. We played in the same cricket team for a while, the Mighty MCC.
Speaker: Don't want to mention our last game that we played together where we lost the grand final, but anyway, that's ah in the past. um And so they have just been doing an incredible job over the recent years. So we mentioned the the distillery um out of Bayswater. They have since moved to Kensington and the Kensington move has been so brilliant for for them, the team, the community. um They've got Nubillam just down the road, and another fantastic distillery looking at Rakia and other spirits.
Speaker: Well, there's a sort of booze tour that takes place around it that we did something on for the the Crafty Pine a while ago, which includes Bonehead Brewing as well. And it's like a nice little multi-beverage, multi-discipline tour that you can take yourself on. I think it's called the Kenzo. crawl there we are the kenzo crawl that's right cool yeah and so yeah in moving into their new space in in kensington and it's just been enabled it's you know so it's given their fans a place to to come and experience the whiskey uh they've done all sorts of events one of the most incredible booze whiskey related events i've ever gone to was a few weeks ago when we got to meet helen garner um and hear her um read from uh her most recent work on on I guess, Melbourne football culture. And you know when I rocked up, um Andrew Baker was just standing there next to Helen Garner and I'd never met her before. And that was the main reason I want to go to the tasting. um And so, yeah, to to rock on in and then just have a chat with Andrew and Helen Garner about football for about 15, 20 minutes was like probably the highlight of my year. um And that just shows you what they're able to achieve there now with their event space. um They're really bringing, i think, a new audience to to whiskey. And considering they are like ah a very traditional, well, traditional, I guess, facing, but um in recent years, they're starting to put out some really interesting whiskey. Some of those were shown yesterday at their Father's Day founding five tasting. um And yeah, so you know Dave was there, um Matt and and Andrew were there. And and it was basically a bit of a celebration of of a Father's Day the week before. and
Speaker: yeah I just cannot speak more highly of the operation there. it's It's got a lot of heart and soul to it and the whiskey is just on another level. It's it's absolutely exceptional. So if you're not familiar with Bakery Hill and if you haven't been in the distillery, of course, for those who are Melbourne based, check it out.
Speaker: Excellent. And ah sort of tied to that, we have our first job listing on the site this week as well, is Foom Presa Liquor, which represents Bakery Hill and a number of other and Victorian brands. So we'll include a link to that in the show notes as well. Definitely.
Speaker: We'll keep this, I guess, introduction to what's coming later in the week brief because the podcast itself is anything but brief. This is one of the first times where you've been let loose in the studio on your own. it had to be recorded over two sessions, bringing Dave Vitale back in. i think Matt was there going, I'm going to put some fresh coins in the meter to keep keep the electricity going in the studio. um But I suppose you know if if anyone is you know going to be allowed to take more time to tell their story, and having sort of listened through the interview you've you had with and with Dave, you know it does go very much you know through his entire story from pre-Whiskey all the way through the ups and downs of of Starwood, the rollercoaster ride it's been in recent years. And I think he talks about some stuff you say that you don't believe he's really sort of addressed any great detail elsewhere. And obviously, being Dave, he has a lot to offer his views on
Speaker: the wider world and you know his views on you know other parts of the spirits industry yes that kind of stuff yeah definitely I did warn everyone at the start that he's the king of monologuing and yeah we did get quite a lot of monologuing but no it was such a great chat and I really appreciated his time and I think that you the reason for allowing it to to deep dive in the way that we did is because I think it also helps to tell the story of I guess the modern Australian whiskey industry but because without Dave and Starwood, you know that looks the story looks completely different. so when When I heard it was about an hour and a half raw cut, I'm like, there'll be some easy chunks we can take out of it. I'm like,
Speaker: Not really. like This is all interesting. and it really is like If you want to know the full story, as well as get someone who's you know i guess got a really interesting take, having you know been based in the States and here, and you know very sort of i guess widely read, I guess you could say, about the industry. like There's so much to be taken from it, as well as some great zingers all along the way.
Speaker: Yeah, he got few zingers in there, didn't he? Good on him. yeah so I think it was ah a fascinating chat. I deeply enjoyed it. Dave and I, whenever we catch up, it it normally ends like that with a couple of Manhattans and God knows how many whiskeys and arguments and you know disagreements and all sorts of things. so Well, I think i think and that the original ending was similar. you know We could talk for hours and hours. I'm like, Luke, don't risk driving people away this early on in in our podcast series.
Speaker: But that'll be going live on all of our channels and on the website later in the week. So you can look out for that. We'll be back with another weekly chat um next week. But aside from that, um yeah, and and anything you're interested in this, obviously we'll include show well links in the show notes. If you do enjoy this, do enjoy our longer chats, enjoy the website, please like, subscribe, rate and review, um leave a comment.
Speaker: Tell your friends. The more people that know about it, the better. um And yeah, if you want to get in touch, send an email to either luke at thefullmeasures.com.au or cheers at thefullmeasures.com.au. Any ideas? um And we can take them on board, see what we can do with them.
Speaker: Until next time. Cheers. Cheers. The Full Measure podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. For all partnership inquiries, reach out to Craig Williams, craig at thefullmeasure.com.au.
Speaker: To keep up to date with everything happening in Australian spirits, visit thefullmeasure.com.au and subscribe.
