Transcript
Speaker: The underlying principle of forest living labs remains the same, meaning creating a space where scientists, practitioners and communities can call develop solutions, test them and their real-world conditions and also adapt them to local needs.
Speaker: Hello everyone, I'm your host Gerda Wolfram from the International Union of Forest Research Organizations, IUFRO, the global network for forest science collaboration. You're listening to the seventh episode of season three of Branching Out, the forest podcast.
Speaker: It's great to have you with us as we explore more forest science. In this season, we will find out how scientists in our Euphro work across disciplines to tackle emerging topics.
Speaker: This work takes place in our 13 task forces. In our previous episode, we talked about health, safety and social dimensions of forest restoration operations,
Speaker: And in this episode, we will explore forest living labs for sustainable climate adaptation. Let me welcome my co-host Ritika Gupta from the IJUFRO Communications Working Party.
Speaker: Thanks for being a co-host for this episode, Ritika. Could you please briefly introduce yourself? Thanks, Gerda. I'm Ritika. I'm a forester by training. Although forestry wasn't my original career path, I had initially considered becoming a pilot.
Speaker: After completing bachelor's in political science, I went on to pursue a master's degree in forestry. And that decision led to me a career in forest policy across different levels of government, including the Canadian Forest Service.
Speaker: And today i work as a consultant in the forestry communication space, and I'm delighted to be part of this conversation. A warm welcome to Branching Out, Ritika, and welcome to our guests Claire Depardieu and Maria Nischnik, co-leads of the IUFRO task force that deals with Forest Living Labs, 4LIVs in short, for sustainable climate adaptation.
Speaker: We're happy to have you with us for this podcast episode. Claire and Maria, let's continue with short introductions. So, Claire, may I ask you to introduce yourself, tell us a bit about your academic background, your research and your role in Ayufro?
Speaker: Hi everyone, everyone hi Gerda. My name is Claire Depardieu and I'm a research scientist with the Canadian Forest Service at the Atlantic Forestry Centre in Fredericton, Canada.
Speaker: I hold a PhD in biological and environmental sciences from the University of Lorraine in France. um Before joining the Canadian Forest Service, I completed three postdoctoral fellowships in Canada in the field of bioinformatics, agronomy and also forest genomics.
Speaker: These expertise allowed me to work across several disciplines and also develop an integrative approach to forest research. My research focuses on understanding how forest trees respond and also adapt to climate change.
Speaker: By combining ecophysiology, wood anatomy, dendrochronology and genomics, I aim to better understand the adaptive capacity of forest populations and generate knowledge that can support sustainable forest management and also climate adaptation strategies.
Speaker: Within Euphro, I first served as a deputy coordinator of the 4 Leaves Task Force for Forest Living Labs for a Sustainable Climate Adaptation from May 2025 to February And since February 2026, I've been the coordinator of this amazing and international task force, which brings together researchers from all around the world working on forest living laboratories. So in this role, I coordinate scientific activities, organize webinars and workshops.
Speaker: ah foster international collaborations and help connect researchers across disciplines to advance innovative approaches to forest research and management.
Speaker: Thank you, Claire. Now I would like to ask Maria, what is your academic background? Where does your main research interest lie and how are you involved with IOFRO? Thank you very much and thank you for inviting me.
Speaker: Hello everyone and I'm Maria Nizhny, Principal Scientist of the James Hutton Institute and member of the UK Expert Committee on Forest Science.
Speaker: I have a PhD in Environmental and Natural Resource Economics from the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and a PhD in Social Sciences from Wageningen University in the Netherlands.
Speaker: I also have a Master of Science degree in Environmental Policy and Management from the Netherlands and degrees of an Engineer and Master of Science in Wood Processing Technology and Funisher Designing and Construction from the Ukrainian National Forestry University.
Speaker: I have worked at the James Hutton Institute in the UK since 2002. My main academic portfolio includes contributions to four-five years' strategic research programs of the Scottish Government.
Speaker: Also, I played a leading role in 10 European Union-funded projects and four cost actions. For example, in 2016-2020, I the Horizon 2020 project Social Innovation in Marginalized Rural Area Simra, where our forest was in the focus. In addition to social and institutional innovation, my main research interests have centered around multifunctional forestry and sustainability forest social ecological systems under climate change and other drivers and pressures.
Speaker: I have been with the EUFRO for two decades, primarily with the Division IV on forest assessment, modeling and management. Currently, I coordinate the Working Party on Social Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and I am a deputy coordinator of the Task Force for leaves Forest Living Labs for Sustainable Climate Change Adaptation.
Speaker: I am honored by the recognition of my contribution to EUFRO activities. Winning this month a Distinguished Service Award is a major milestone, the next one for me after Euphro Scientific Achievement Award that I received in 2019.
Speaker: Well, thank you, Maria. This is impressive. And also thank you, Claire. So it seems you combine really very different fields of research. Claire with a background more in environmental sciences, ran a focus on tree physiology to some extent, and Maria as a natural resource, ecological and climate change economist and a social scientist.
Speaker: But you're both interested in how forest ecosystems function in the face of climate change. And if I understand it correctly, one way of finding out more about the reaction of forests to climate change is through so-called forest living labs.
Speaker: So, first of all, Claire, what are forest living labs or FARLIVs? Can you explain the concept? So, Gerda, that's a great question.
Speaker: Forest Living Labs are ah collaborative, long-term research platforms where scientists, forest managers, landowners, you can have also indigenous communities, policymakers, industry partners, and other stakeholders, they all work together to better understand and address the challenges facing forests.
Speaker: The concept builds on previous collaborative approaches such as the model of forests that were developed in Canada in the early 90s. um Model forests created an important foundation by bringing together different stakeholders to share knowledge and also develop more sustainable approaches to forest management.
Speaker: Forest Living Labs build on this idea, but take it a step further. There are not only platforms for knowledge exchange, there are spaces where solutions are co-designed, tested and improved through continuous collaboration.
Speaker: One key principle is that the people who will ultimately apply these solutions are involved throughout the entire process. This means that forest managers, communities and other practitioners are not simply users of scientific knowledge, but instead they actively contribute their expertise, help define priorities and provide feedback to improve pro proposed approaches.
Speaker: I would like to mention another fundamental aspect is the diversity of partnerships. Addressing climate change requires bringing together multiple forms of knowledge and expertise.
Speaker: Scientists contribute research, usually with methods, data, and in understanding of ecological processes. Forest practitioners can bring operational experience, and indigenous people can contribute valuable place-based and long-term knowledge of ecosystem. government agencies, industry, and organizations help connect research outcomes with broader management and policy needs.
Speaker: so Finally, Forest Living Labs end-phase testing solutions under real-world conditions. Instead of developing approaches only in experimental settings, they allow researchers and also stakeholders to evaluate strategies directly in forests at the scale they where they will eventually be applied.
Speaker: So um this can include testing climate-adapted tree populations, for example, evaluating new management practices, or monitoring our forest response to disturbances such as drought, heat waves, and other extreme events.
Speaker: So in my view, forest living labs do represent the next step in collaborative forest research. Thank you, Claire. As a forester, I think one of the most compelling aspects of Living Labs is the opportunity to test solutions in real forests under real-world conditions.
Speaker: This gives us a clear picture of what works on the ground and helps inform future forest management decisions. And can I ask you, Maria, what are the benefits of the Living Lab approach and how do they help develop solutions, especially when it comes to forests and climate change adaptation?
Speaker: The benefits of living labs are gained to a large extent from realizing social innovations. The similar projects that I mentioned define social innovation as the reconfiguration of social practices in response to societal challenges, which seeks to enhance outcome of societal well-being and necessarily includes engagement of civil society actors.
Speaker: The social and societal challenges that living labs seek to address include climate change central for four leaves. Outcomes on social eto ah well-being may be associated with trees and forests and their adaptation to climate change of interest for four leaves, while engagement is of ah end users.
Speaker: as co-creators of these positive changes. Living labs can offer benefits that are user-centric and are provided effectively and efficiently.
Speaker: Primary benefits are associated with strengthening of the resilience of forest social ecological systems, for instance. The benefits of living labs approach tend to be applied and practical.
Speaker: meant to ensure that processes, so interactions, practices, fields of activities, but also their results, outcomes and benefits, so products, services, strategies, are pertinent, viable, culturally allied and community of places, practices and interests driven.
Speaker: The Living Labs can provide benefits to introduce drought-resistant tree species, design fire-resilient landscapes, alleviate soil degradation, design green spaces to improve microclimate, reduce heat exposure, promote multifunctional forestry, as an example of Loch Karren community in Scotland, or carbon-smart forestry, as in our example from the Slovakian Karpacians.
Speaker: Wider benefits of the Living Labs approach concern enhancement of the awareness and continuous social learning and knowledge sharing. Improved in Living Labs knowledge exchange can enhance the stakeholder capacities and skills.
Speaker: Living Labs can serve as hubs for peer-to-peer learning, allowing different localities facing similar threats like of climate change to share successful adaptation approaches and tools.
Speaker: Finally, by directly involving decision makers and authorities, for example, Living Labs can provide grounded evidence to help design more effective place-based solutions and to enhance their monitoring, evaluation and testing.
Speaker: Therefore, living labs can bridge implementation gaps, can help provide recommendations for policymakers and practitioners, for instance concerning climate change or adaptation.
Speaker: Thank you, Maria. So, there are truly many benefits of living labs, which are, as you say, basically derived from social innovation and connected with co-creation and testing of innovative solutions in real-life settings.
Speaker: Claire, can you explain a bit more about the concepts of the open innovation and the co-designing solutions? Who are the co-designers? What do they bring to the table?
Speaker: Can you illustrate this with a concrete example, perhaps? Oh, yeah, sure. ah So here we are really at the heart of what forest living labs are all about.
Speaker: So thank you for that question. They ah represent a different way of doing research. And because traditionally scientists develop a solution and then try to transfer it to the people who will use it.
Speaker: In a forest living lab, we basically do the opposite. ah We bring everyone around the table ah right from the beginning and build solutions together.
Speaker: So that's um what we mean by open innovation. ah Climate change is such complex challenge ah that no single person or organization has all the answers, in fact. So just, ah I would like to mention, scientists bring a research expertise and data, forest us managers, they can understand what is practical in the field. While ah indigenous people and homeowners, they can contribute invaluable local and also long-term knowledge while policymakers can help ensure that solutions fit ah within borders, societal priorities, and the industry can basically help turn promising ideas into real-world applications. So co-design means that all of these partners are involved throughout the entire process.
Speaker: ah They don't simply comment comment on the results at the end. ah They help identify the challenges, define ah the the research questions, design the experiments, and so also interpret the findings. And they decide together ah what the best solutions are.
Speaker: um That continuous collaboration is really one of the defining characteristics um of a forest living lab. And you wanted a concrete example, so maybe a good example is ah climate adaptation in forestry.
Speaker: Researchers might identify tree populations that appear better adapted to future climate conditions um based on genetic or um maybe physiological studies. But deciding whether those populations can actually be used in forest management requires much broader input.
Speaker: Forest managers can assess whether the approach is operationally feasible. Nurseries can determine whether the planting material can be produced at scale. And policymakers can evaluate how it fits within ah existing regulations. And not to mention local communities can also ensure that it aligns with regional priorities and needs. ah So a forest living lab provides exactly the right environment for that kind of collaboration.
Speaker: ah Together, these partners can establish field trials, monitor forest responses over time, learn from the results and and refine management practices.
Speaker: So ultimately, that's the real strength of ah open innovation and also co-design. ah You can combine scientific knowledge with practical experience and also local expertise.
Speaker: And so in that case, we can develop solutions that are not only scientifically robust, but also really practical, ah widely accepted, which is very important too, and much more likely to have a real impact on the ground.
Speaker: Thank you, Claire. It's promising to see how living labs connect research, local knowledge, and practical experience to co-develop solutions that can be applied on the ground. It sounds like living labs are like a work in progress.
Speaker: Maria, how do stakeholders participate in the co-design process? Could you give us more insights into the functioning of a living lab? Built on the concept of social innovation and its quadruple helix model, the Living Labs approach connects citizens, academia, businesses and authorities through public-private population partnerships. We also say PPPP.
Speaker: The co-construction of knowledge is at the center and it proceeds from system knowledge, so from input phase, through transformation knowledge, through action, to target knowledge, so to outputs or benefits you you have asked me earlier.
Speaker: and transdisciplinary approach combining theoretical, empirical, expert, traditional knowledge and local wisdom and multi-level, multi-actor engagement at the center as well.
Speaker: Participatory co-design is in the core when foresters, farmers, communities work with scientists together to develop ideas, prototypes, pilots and design strategies ensuring that the solutions are practical and relevant.
Speaker: Schematically, it starts with innovative ideas. For instance, a community requires state-owned forests to enlarge societal benefits or climate change benefits.
Speaker: ah Then ah they proceed it ah to the development of innovative processes. They create a living lab, formalize the structure more or less, and then they source funds and expert knowledge if not available within the community.
Speaker: And they establish links with other organizations. And then an innovative project, for instance, of ah woodland management for multiple ecosystem services, ah as in the Loch Karan community of Scotland, um is initiated and developed.
Speaker: But this is just one example. There could be many, many other and quite different examples of how the process starts and how they proceed.
Speaker: But necessarily, living labs include real-world testing. So not only co-designing, but also real-world testing.
Speaker: Living labs can operate directly in forests, as I just explained, to evaluate ecological resilience, for instance, and biodiversity impacts. on forests from climate change or other drivers of pressures in real terms and real time.
Speaker: After success in testing in ah living labs, the implementing of sustainable forest management decisions or climate change adaptation measures can become viable.
Speaker: An example is a community forestry in Scotland when collective self-organized regimes have proven to be able to address climate change challenges better.
Speaker: This is largely thanks to stakeholder communication, building trust and among community members, a reliance on traditional knowledge, the willingness and capacity of communities to follow their own rules, but of course respecting the rule of others.
Speaker: And then finally, working in living labs also ensures the fine tuning of strategies through rapid feedback loops. This is to do with continuous monitoring that allows stakeholders to tweak management techniques quickly, accelerating the performance success and making it more efficient.
Speaker: Thank you, Maria. So you're saying connecting citizens, academia, businesses and authorities and then doing real-world testing. These are truly the core elements of the approach.
Speaker: Claire, your task force is taking a global approach. We've now heard examples from Scotland, but in the current webinar series, you're highlighting examples from other parts of the world.
Speaker: Can you point out any major regional differences also by way of examples from different parts of the world? That's a very interesting question, Gerda, because i would say one of the strengths of Living Lab is that they they can be adapted to a very different ecological, ah social and also management context. So through our 4Lives webinar series, we have seen that um although many regions are facing common challenges,
Speaker: related to climate change, that it seems like the priorities and approaches can be very different depending on local realities. Just to give you an example, in Canada, um living labs are often strongly focused on climate change adaptation and we would like to maintain the resilience of the forest ecosystem.
Speaker: ah Canadian forests are facing, of course, increasing pressures from drought, wildfires, and such outbreaks, and also changing temperature regions.
Speaker: ah So in this context, living labs are often used to support long-term experiments and monitoring, for example, by testing climate-adapted tree populations.
Speaker: evaluating new forest management practices and and working with forest managers, indigenous communities, of course, researchers and policy makers to develop solutions ah for resilient forests.
Speaker: But at the same time, although agroforestry is gaining interest in Canada and and in Quebec, but still it's not very developed at this stage. So um there are still relatively few examples where agroforester systems are developed and tested within a forest living lab framework.
Speaker: Most living lab approaches in Canada can be focused on forest ecosystems, sustainable forest management and climate adaptation in both natural and managed forests.
Speaker: But in contrast, in many regions of Africa, The connection between forests, um agriculture and local livelihoods is much stronger, and agroforestry is often the central component of climate adaptation strategies. so Forest Living Labs in this context may focus on restoring degrading landscapes, for example, They can integrate trees into agricultural system. ah They improve soil health. ah They can enhance biodiversity and support. Ultimately, the goal is to support food security.
Speaker: So here, are farmers and and local communities are ah key partners, of course, because they they bring essential knowledge about species selection, ah land management practices, and how these systems fund over the long term.
Speaker: So the the underlying ah principle of forest living labs remains the same, meaning creating a space where scientists, practitioners and communities can call develop solutions, test them and their real world conditions and also adapt them to local needs.
Speaker: And I would say ah and this diversity is one of the greatest strengths of 4LIB's, of our initiative, because by connecting experiences from different regions, from forest adaptation in Canada to forest restoration and agroforestry approaches in in Africa, for example, ah we can definitely learn from different perspectives and develop more effective strategies to support resilient forests.
Speaker: Thank you, Claire. You highlighted something we often forget, just how diverse forest regions are. They have their own species, climates, landscapes, and uses, and they face different challenges and pressures.
Speaker: It's encouraging to see that the Living Lab approach is flexible enough to respond to those local realities. It also reinforces the idea that there is No one-size-fits-all solution to climate change.
Speaker: Instead, as you said, it is important to co-develop solutions, test them under real-world conditions, and adapt them to local needs. Maria, is there anything you would like to add?
Speaker: Are there any activities of the task force you would like to highlight, especially with a view to the 2029 IU for World Congress in Kenya? ah Clara ah mentioned our newsletter and our spotlights. For instance, we produce interesting spotlights um based on ah the webinars on Africa and France living labs and we develop ideas, for instance, to run webinar ah about North East of Scotland and ah the experience ah shared ah by us may be ah helpful to others, as ah Clara mentioned. I would also like to stress that we collaborate well ah between the working party 40505
Speaker: on the social an innovation and entrepreneurship, but also we established task force, for instance, 49 on post-conflict forest landscape restoration and contributed to the task force 48 on gender equity, ah diversity and inclusion.
Speaker: ah We work nicely on preparation of conferences and events. ah The first conference will be, to my knowledge, but Clara may correct me, about Nordic forest research that will be held in Quebec.
Speaker: We are co-authorizing a paper on empowering marginalized communities in Northern Scotland to act for change. We also have in our plans conference in Padua together with the Working Party 90503 and Task Force on Gender.
Speaker: It's in Padua 2027. Then we have... in our plans but my knowledge is not complete conference in Göttingen in 2027 it's a combined all division four conference and um I hope we will contribute nicely to it as well and then finally in 2029 Kenya ah the 27th you floor world Congress will come we can nicely get ready and run a session on social innovation and living labs joint, again joint between working party 040505 and for Reliefs. We also work on joint publications and quite a long list, but just ah one example is a chapter of the teaming up for Forest Report, productive and biodiverse managing European forests for economic and ecological outcomes.
Speaker: Yeah, this is quite a lot. Thank you, Maria. This is amazing. So there are so many activities to engage in and so many activities to look forward to in the next couple of years.
Speaker: Now, before we wrap up, I would love to hear one concise key message from each of our guests and, of course, from Ritika, our co-host. So let's start with Maria for a change.
Speaker: Which key message would you like our listeners to remember from this conversation? I have two key messages, sorry. The first one, so that we tried to present the concept of living labs adopted by four leaves. However, there are slightly different interpretations.
Speaker: It's not a unique concept. vision on what is a living lab. Different environments, different like urban, ah rural, ah when they are concerned or when there are different goals, sectors, methodological perspectives or anything. So the living lab concept even, not only the approach, can be slightly different.
Speaker: And for instance, living love approach can be seen as a context, framework or a method. It also influences what is really mean and how it works. ah But it is common for other theories. There are more than 300 definitions of ah concepts of sustainable development and sustainability.
Speaker: So unique ah hardly exists. So for the audience, just keep it in mind. And the second observation is that the Living Love approach has proven to be really helpful.
Speaker: Although our project, our photo leaves, has just started, but we can already... say that it is helpful and it but at the same time it is important to design ways to promote creativity and motivation to strengthen social and human capital to support innovators and to steer the initiation and further development of living labs give attention to enablers barriers to adequate skill and size of living labs help to with seed and matching funds
Speaker: to keep in mind that a well-designed policy and supportive governance can encourage creation of exploratory niches for trials and pilots and upscaling best solutions from living loves, which is very important.
Speaker: to know that co-learning is crucial with local actors sharing experiences within and between places on various levels and with scientists, policies and businesses. And finally, communication, education, knowledge sharing is seen as a way forward. These efforts can empower actors, foster collaborations and partnerships, and I'm really happy that ForLives contributes ah to making it happen.
Speaker: Can I now ask you, Claire, for your key takeaway from our talk today? Maybe here, I'll only Ritika and Yara to share a message with the young scientists who currently building their careers.
Speaker: um I truly believe that the Forest Living Labs represent one of the most promising innovation frameworks for for the future of forest research, as Maria just mentioned before, too.
Speaker: and And many senior researchers have had the privilege of working with have told me that ah if they had the opportunity to start over, ah they would devote their entire careers to this approach. So ah why? ah Simply because for the first time, they do feel that they can see a tangible and measurable impact ah of their research. ah So maybe my message to the next generation of scientists is be simple. Don't be afraid to embrace multidisciplinary collaborative research.
Speaker: We know that that the complex challenges we face today requires us to work across disciplines and and together with society. I would also like to invite anyone interested in our initiative, whether you are a scientist, a forest practitioner, a policymaker, a student, or simply someone passionate about forests, You can join us, ah and so don't see don't hesitate to join ah our task force. um I would like to mention we have um an active YouTube channel called 4Lives Task Force, ah where you can watch recordings of our ah webinar series exploring forest living labs from all around the world and showcasing ah inspiring initiatives from different regions. We are also active um on LinkedIn and Facebook, so please follow us ah to stay informed about our upcoming events and activities. Finally, I would like to warmly thank Maria for joining me in this podcast.
Speaker: I would like also to ah acknowledge the incredible work of our deputy coordinators, Philippe Rosenberg, Maxence Arnold, Somit Saha, and ah Maria Elena Fernandez for their commitment to the 4Leaf Task Force and for making this ah international network we are currently building so dynamic.
Speaker: ah Finally, my sincere thanks to ah Gerda and Ritika for the invitation. It has been a real pleasure to be here with you today and to share our passion for Forest Living Lands.
Speaker: Thank you, Claire. And thank you especially also for putting the spotlight on your task force members and coordinators and for inviting everybody to join the task force activities, everybody who is interested, of course.
Speaker: But now, let me also ask Kritika, from the communicator's point of view, what is the most important lesson that you have learned from this conversation? From my perspective, one of the most important lessons from this conversation is that there is no one-size-fits-all approach.
Speaker: Forests are incredibly diverse, and as Maria pointed out, there are hundreds of definitions around sustainability, which is a useful reminder that people, landscapes, and priorities can differ greatly from one place to another.
Speaker: What I find encouraging about Forest Living Labs is that they create a space for researchers, practitioners, communities, and decision makers to learn from one another and co-develop solutions that reflect local realities. As a communicator, it's also a reminder that effective solutions start with listening, collaboration, and knowledge the sharing.
Speaker: And I believe Forest Labs help ensure that solutions are both practical and relevant for the future and for now. Thank you, Ritika, for this excellent statement. And thank you, Claire and Maria, for this deep dive into the Forest Living Labs for Sustainable Climate Adaptation.
Speaker: I have learned a lot about Forest Living Labs here, how they're built on collaboration, co-design and social innovation, and how they can really help to better understand the challenges that face forests and societies that depend on forests.
Speaker: And I hope that our listeners have also found this equally interesting. So thank you again to my guests and to my co-host. And thank you to our listeners for joining us. Look out for the next Branching Out episode, where we will learn about post-conflict forest landscape restoration and how to make it back better, the topic of another Euphro task force.
Speaker: And if you want to know more about a Euphro, follow us on social media or click on the show notes. And until next time, goodbye.
