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Episode #016 - Helena Nicklin - Drinks Writer & Broadcaster
81 Plays1 year ago
Todays guest is Helena Nicklin, She is a drinks writer and broadcaster, writing for the likes of the Daily Mail, The Sun, and various luxury magazines such as BA Highlife , Decanter, Savile Row Style and Luxurious Magazine to name but a few. Helena also has a food and drink travel series on amazon prime called ‘The Three Drinkers’ , and is now pursuing her interests in speaking to a variety of guest in the hopes of understanding a little more about the world around her, with her magazine and podcast ‘Flock & Hive.’
In this episode, we discuss Helenas experience as a judge and writer with all things wine and spirits. How the taste method for spirits and wine are so wildly different. How to taste wine and learn about the characteristics. The rise of low and no alcohol spirits, Helenas introduction to perfumery, the importance of smell, and much more.
You can find out more about Helena here:
Web: HelenaNicklin.com
Instagram: @HelenaSips
Magazine: FlockandHive.com
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Perspectives. Today's guest is Helen Nicklin. She is a drinks writer and broadcaster, writing for the likes of The Daily Mail, all the way up to luxury magazines such as the High Life magazine. She also has a show on Amazon Prime called Three Drinkers, and to now, with her magazine and podcast, Flock and Hive, is pursuing her interests in learning from other people about a variety of weird and wonderful topics, ranging from her fumery all the way up to things like mycology.
00:00:33
Speaker
In this episode, we discuss Helena's experience as a judge and writer with all things wine and spirits, how the taste method for spirits and wine are so wildly different, how to taste wine and learn all about the characteristics, the rise of low and no alcohol spirits, Helena's introduction to perfumery, the importance of smell, and much more. So, without further ado, Helena Nicklin.
00:01:21
Speaker
All right, perfect. So, Helena Nicklin, it's ah it's a pleasure to have you on Perspectives as a a fellow podcaster now, as you've entered the realms of podcasting. Wow, it's obvious to be here. Thank you. ah You're most welcome. So anyone who isn't familiar, I like to start with an introduction by my guest. So if you could let us know a little bit more about who you are and and what you do. Sure thing. So I'm Helena. I'm a drinks writer and broadcaster by trade. I've been working in booze for 24 years, which makes me feel very old when I say that. um And it's you know it's really varied. I write for newspapers like The Sun and The Daily Mail, but also all the way up to like the a high life luxury wines, you know very expensive wines and all that sort of thing. And that's been a glorious career, very boozy. But nowadays I am growing my own lifestyle.
00:02:15
Speaker
side of things which is a magazine and a podcast called Flock and Hive in an attempt to move a little away little ah little way from purely being all about alcohol and using that as a as an excuse to ask the questions I've always wanted to ask about life and just to keep learning because that's what it's all about. 100% from that's pretty much why I started the podcast. It was the curiosity of the questions I had about topics I wanted to know answers about or dive into it a little bit more. So um yeah being around booze and and wine for for that many years sounds like ah a dream job to a few, but um how did you how did you get into it? how What was the start of all you know your journey into getting into the whole writing and and you know the wine industry and the booze industry, essentially? Well, it certainly wasn't anything that was presented to you at school, was it? Would you like a career in in alcohol? and No, that certainly wasn't an option, but where it came from was languages initially. I think I studied French and Italian and I was lucky enough to be forced to go and live in Rome for a year and to sort of hone hone the language skills. I met a Frenchman, which helped with the dissertation at the end. So that was a French and Italian sorted.
00:03:29
Speaker
But what they had out there in Rome, which we didn't have in the UK, because this was back in like 1999 now, was anatecas. So wine bars, but not like the all bar one style wine bar, which is what we had, like in London. It was more ivy clad, dark wood, drippy candles, floor to ceiling wine, somebody on the piau in the corner that had just walked in, cold cuts, and wine flight, where you could discover wines just by having a little taste and they'd do three in a row. And A, it was just such a romantic, gorgeous place, especially as on in their 20s studying, living abroad. um I you know really love drinking wine anyway, even though
00:04:12
Speaker
so it was basically £3.49 from Sainsbury's at that point. But yeah, I was really interested in the idea of wine. And what they did in this Enoteco was they offered these flights of wines. So three wine grapes, all from Italy, all reds. And they didn't say anything else about them apart from what they were. So a Dolchetto, a Nebbiolo and a Barbera. And it was just about, look, just play around, play spot the difference, see which one you like. And I loved I love that compare and contrast elements where all the superfluous stuff was taken away so you can concentrate on this first and then if you're interested you kind of open the open the doors to a whole world of information but just it gave you a place to start with wine and that just made me think ah
00:04:56
Speaker
So I came back to London, I had to finish my degree, but I made sure I got a job in a wine shop. um So that's where the wine thing started. But ah the other long story is that while I was in Italy, I decided I actually did want to be an actress and I met a load of people from Cambridge Footlights who were obviously very intelligent and very talented, but they were all going to drama school after uni. So I thought, oh, if they can do it, maybe I can do it too. So for years I did wine and one and acting and that's how my career has ended up the way it has which is presenting about wine mostly. Excellent. ah think ah I think what you touched upon there about having that they introduction but then if you want to go a bit further with it is is quite nice. cause I feel like People think the barrier to entry to wine is quite high. I think they're put off a lot of the time by, you get this idea, obviously, that the kind of association with it being kind of you know snobbly and pompous and things like that. when Whenever you talk to people who are kind of not really into that sort of wine, you start talking about the the details of what you get into with wine. Yeah, that's kind of, you know, it's bull really. but
00:06:04
Speaker
You know, I think there's so much, there's so many wines out there. I think you find either people love wine or they really don't like wine, but there's so many varieties, there's so many different types. You've got your reds, your whites, your orange wines now, and wines, that I feel like if people just automatically write something off by saying, you know, I don't like red, that tends to be the one, you know, people tend to be a bit more accustomed to drinking white wine, but then red wine, they're like, oh no, I don't like red wine. But you may not like a certain type of red, but there's so many different options out there that you just maybe haven't found the right one for you yet. And I think that's the same with a lot of different spirits, to be honest. I mean, I haven't, I haven't quite gotten to like whiskey yet, but I like bourbon because it's, that's kind of my entry point because it's slightly different. And I feel like wine's quite similar in that that respect. What do you think?
00:06:54
Speaker
Yeah, well, i think I think you're absolutely right. People don't really know where to start. It's quite a toughie, because no one no one really tells you where to start, all apart from me, which is basically why I like that. Yeah, I mean, that wasn't basically a plug for myself. But no, I hear you. it's some it It's quite a scary thing to jump into with wine and the great thing is there are I think the whole craft beer movement and the craft cider movement that's kind of really helped like the natural wine movement and I think through natural wine a young a younger audience are getting into kind of normal wine as well.
00:07:30
Speaker
And it's just all it takes is a couple of communicators who can genuinely de-snobify it just to to show that, yeah, it's a hugely sexy subject but yeah and it's just about knowing where to start with it rather than trying to lift the bonnet on a car and trying to work out what's going on. Just decide you like it, you like the red one, you want you like the green one. Okay, now what are the differences between those two and then let's lift the bonnet? Yeah. Because, you know, with wine education, it's often how a wine is made. That's where people start and there is no frame of reference and that's a boring place to start, quite frankly. People want to know, as you said, how to pick wines they're going to like, basically. They want to know what is the difference between a Pinot Noir and a Cabernet, rather than, ooh, malolactic fermentation. this this This is what this does. This is what this is responsible for protection. This is the reason why that happens. like na No, that comes later.
00:08:22
Speaker
Let's just start with what's the difference between the grapes and let's try and personify them and make those easier to understand and then you can jump into the rest. 100%. My partner and I would like to play a bit of the game whenever we get wine so I me ah think it was kind of mainly locked out we kind of really started to get into wine. Because I always remember my parents always, you know, um always used to drink wine and I'd, you know, occasionally have a glass of Sauvignon Blanc, which is a ah preference of my mum's. And I always remember like, she never liked Chardonnay. So I always had this idea of my head of like Chardonnay being, you know, not particularly nice wine until I tried a really good Chardonnay. And I was like, why are you talking about this? So, so good, so different. But it all comes down to personal taste. But my partner and I had played
00:09:07
Speaker
play a bit of a game where we'll try a new bottle and we've got this app on our phone where you can you can scan the label so I think it's called Vivino you can scan the label and it basically it's like a collection of different users who have fed back their results on what the taste profile is and a little bit about the wine and the sort of notes they can get the smells and the tastes the flavors So we like to play a game where we will get a new bottle, we'll have a sort of, almost like a blind tasting, we'll we'll have a bit of each, and okay we'll ask each other what we can, you know, what we can smell, how strong we think the wine is, and you know, sort of the kind of key buzzwords we're trying to aim for, and then we can pair it against what other people have said.
00:09:49
Speaker
And that's been really nice for our education, really, because when you get it right, you kind of you you made that association between I actually am going down the right path for this and my I am starting to pick up on the certain subtleties of the flavors. But you're also learning about, OK, oh, maybe there was a smell I couldn't quite. place what it was but now that someone else has said oh it's like you know smokiness or tobacco you're like okay now that's going to make sense so it's i think that's quite a nice way because it kind of gamifies our enjoyment of wine and it makes it a learning experience at the same time rather than just being sitting like ah like really you know it makes it fun rather than just trying to as you say take that boring element out of it where you kind of study all the context of the terroir and all that sort of stuff
00:10:33
Speaker
I love the gamifying. The thing about that though, because my husband and I are always, you know, we're incapable of opening a bottle of wine without going, oh no, you've got to tell me what it is. I want the grape. I want whether it's a new world or old world. The thing is you've drunk half a bottle of wine playing that game in about five minutes trying to work it out. So it's not great for the consumption element, but it is a lot of fun. Yeah, because then you we all smashly want to try a different bottle and you're like, okay, well, what about this next one? And we can see. But yeah, you don't have to be be a bit careful with how much you're consuming in that respect. But yeah, it's just a nice thing to do. And it's it's something we enjoy together and it kind of.
00:11:10
Speaker
allows us to refine our kind of tastes and understand what we like and then we can then go away and when we're looking for bottles next time we can go okay I like to that grape in that previous bottle so maybe we can look at a similar you know similar grape from a different producer or something and then you just start exploring that way and you build up where we started with like just the Pinot Noir's and then start building up we can we enjoy some of the heavier more full-bodied ones Whereas I think if people automatically jump to the full body, that's when they get put off because it's just too overpowering and they haven't by yeah haven a quite the palette for it, so to speak. That's true. and you know But even with things like Pinot Noir,
00:11:53
Speaker
at some of the best, most expensive world wines in the world of Pinot Noir. But if you're you know if you're not used to tasting it, you might think that they're just really thin and they taste of cow poo. i yeah That is the tasting note for an aged Pinot Noir, but in a good way, you know like a stinky cheese. But yeah, it is an acquired taste at times, isn't it? Definitely. So for someone who is perhaps looking on that note to improve their experience or at least start getting into wines a bit more, do you have any learnings or golden rules or any dos or don'ts that you would sort of advise for people if they're looking to get in and refine their taste when it comes to wine?
00:12:27
Speaker
ah Yeah, I think it's um take it step by step because it is a really huge, you know and as I said, right very, very sexy subject and knowing where to start is tricky. Yeah, i always I always say get to know personalities of the world's most famous grapes and do tasting tours from the most famous places in the world that make them. You can just Google what those are and just and and play, compare and contrast because it's the differences between the different wines that really teach you. You'll have a single wine by itself. It's like it looks like wine, it smells like wine, tastes like wine. But if you have two reds next to each other and you go, oh, okay, so this one, so this is more cherry red, whether that one's more brick red or purpley red, you know, this one's really, it's got loads of tannin, that one hasn't. I understand what tannin means because you've got a frame of reference. So getting to know the grapes and once you've got a handle on that,
00:13:15
Speaker
and you know and what new world and old world, so essentially Europe, ah where they've been waking wine making wine for centuries and the new world, which is precisely that, what differences they bring to the table. Then you can kind of lift the bonnet, as it were, on all the winemaking detail and sort of get stuck into oak barrels and lease aging and stuff like that. So great varieties, start with those. it Okay, perfect. And then obviously over the years you've judged a lot of competitions as well ah with your diploma and your background and in wine as well. So when we when we talk about competitions, what would a typical competition look like? Is it a case of it would be a blind taste or is it something a bit more nuanced?
00:13:59
Speaker
Well, I think any competition worth its salt and certainly the big ones like the IWSC and De Canta, et cetera, is always blind because one look at the label is worth 25 years in the industry, you know? um That's what they say. I think I've nicked that from someone else. But yes, it's always blind. It's always as a team as well. And you taste blind first of all. yeah basically You have a tray usually. of lots of different wines in the same category. You taste through them all yourself and then you discuss them with other experts and you sort of rate where they are. And if there are any that you kick out and don't get a medal, you have to give them positive feedback. So there's a lot of pressure, especially as they do publish your name now as a judge. So you can't just say, taste them in your crap.
00:14:46
Speaker
You know, you've got to be kind. You've got to give some constructive feedback. But it's quite intense because there's often about, there's around 100 wines a day and you're always tasting those more than once. Sometimes three times, sometimes more. So yes, it's heavy on the old teeth, but it's a proper, it's like a military operation. And in so in, for example, like with fine dining, you may get like a palate cleanser between palates, between like tastings. Is there anything similar for wine where you'd have yeah anything you'd use to kind of wash your mouth out a little bit so you've not got the the taste of the previous wine so it doesn't skew your ah taste of the next one? Yeah, I mean, well, everyone kind of has their own thing. But generally, we we're just you know never drink so much water as when you ah when you're judging. I get through liters of the stuff.
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, between every wine i I rinse with water and then if ah if there are lots if there's lots of tannin going on, eat just really plain water crack is is the wine thing really, because you don't want anything with any flavour at all. and Yeah, that because that can just interfere. No smell, no flavour, nothing. and But it just kind of sets the palate again. And sniffing the back of your hand, funnily enough, as long as you haven't got any hand cream or anything on, is a good way to reset your nose as well. I actually don't know the science behind it, but it works. I know you were doing, we'll get into that a little bit later, but I know you've been been quite looking in depth into the the whole sense of smell with some of your other guests on your podcast, that one we'll get onto in a bit. But I've also had a question, so... I asked a few of my friends if they had any questions for you, being obviously an expert and being into wine. So one of them's actually come from my mum. She actually said, why is it that most English wines are so expensive that we end up sort of resorting to importing a lot more? Is there any, is there a reason why they are more expensive? Is it to do with the growing conditions or what?
00:16:39
Speaker
well I imagine she's talking specifically about that we're making a lot of sparkling wine these days in a champagne style. So just as a start, making wine in that style is expensive because these days we're using premium grapes, we're using the The champagne grapes, Chardonnay Pinot Noir and sometimes a bit of Mournier as well, they are more expensive than like the local varieties that we kind of used to have in England. The Germanic varieties like Bacchus and Madeleine, Angevin, etc. There is a premium that comes with that. There's a premium that comes with buying the land. There's a premium that comes with
00:17:13
Speaker
the time that you need to spend making these because you know time is money in most things, but it very much is in wine. You can't release you can't release a sparkling wine until at least 18 months after it's been bottled. you can't you know It takes three years for of a vine to be growing, poor you can even harvest from it. It's a really expensive process, but also with England and English wines, you can't you can't really go backwards and So you need to price it at at a level that's kind of sustainable for the future as well. So it it is necessarily expensive. And most English producers have all the costs that the you know the French dealt with years and years ago. It's still quite a new industry and it's still growing very quickly. So is it is an expensive thing. It doesn't mean it's a like a flash in the pan like novelty thing though. this it's English wine is here to stay and they're not necessarily going to get that much cheaper, although we will see more
00:18:09
Speaker
cheaper styles of sparkling wine, for example, being made. So we've got a few Prosecco Method, which is the Charmat Method. One's now, and they're offering wines more of like more around £15 rather than £25. So yeah, that's it, premium and terroir, premium and grapes, and a very expensive, time-consuming winemaking process, really. like so We went to Canada last year because my my brother lives out in Canada, and we did a tour of a vineyard out there, and they do ice wine, which I hadn't really ah hadn't really come across before, but it was it was really interesting what they were doing with the grapes. So essentially they were getting to the winter season there. I think they harvest it at temperatures of below minus five degrees, I believe, something similar to that.
00:18:54
Speaker
So you get this, you know, the grape has obviously shriveled up to to something of a raisin size and you they they take them and they press a load. Obviously you have to press a lot more because you don't get as much juice, but what you get out of it is just super sweet, super concentrated. It was always like syrup. Really interesting. Yeah, really interesting flavour and sort of texture. um Yeah, really, really enjoyed that one and it's something I'd i'd never come across before. No, it's it's not one of the most usual styles of sweet wine. They make some in Germany as well. Ice wine. I mean, they spell it E-I-S. Yeah. um But fans of Sotern and wines like that will love those. It's just like golden honeyed syrupy marmaladey gorgeousness, but with really zippy acidity. So it's not cloying, is it? It's just really refreshing. That was some blue cheese. Oh my God. Did you try that?
00:19:47
Speaker
I didn't, not with the blue cheese, but we did. It was quite cool. they had They had a freezer essentially and they had loads of ice sculptures and the whole bar was made out of ice. So just generally a really, really cool experience overall to go and go and see that. I'd love to see that. I've never been out there. I'll have to send you some pictures. See? Yeah, it was interesting, really interesting. So I wanted to ask about spirits as well. So I know you obviously you're predominantly into to the wine element, but you mentioned spirits there. I know you've got a ah TV program as well on Amazon Prime called Three Drinkers, and you've done ah one in Ireland and one in Cognac as well. how would how How does spirits tasting differ from wine? Are there there's some nuances when it comes to that sort of stuff? Or is it a really stark contrast between spirits?
00:20:36
Speaker
is quite different, yes. I mean, spirits, you you can't really slurp and swirl around your mouth because, wow, the burn would be insane. Yeah. You take a much gentler approach with spirits. There's a lot of lot in the nose, really. So, I mean, I know people do it differently, but yes, you approach it very gently. like a We had a beautiful and professor but He wasn't a professor, actually. He he was actually the master distiller at Dalmore. Richard of course, absolute legend. He's about to retire, but he's responsible for some of the finest Scotch whiskeys in the world. But he he taught us in our WSET diploma when we got to Scotch. And he said it was all about, and sort of first of all, saying, hello. I see the video, actually.
00:21:20
Speaker
Yeah and it's just like the first one it just really don't get too close don't stick your nose in because that alcohol is just going to go straight to the back and kill your nose immediately so you really really gently and you you so and you always taste it neat first I think you should anyway taste it so it would smell first and then a really gentle sip first so you're not swelling around your mouth like you would with wine and then breathing out because there's a lot of it on the finish that you get with scotch and then I personally would do it again with a tiny drop of water because that just changes the chemical structure in a way that I don't really understand but what it does is that it cuts the alcohol burn and it just kind of opens up the flavours a little bit more and so yeah it's just it's it's much more gentle shall we say needle it needfully so
00:22:03
Speaker
It's interesting you say about that because I've actually seen that video going around on social media quite a bit and he's still been doing it and going, hello, how are you? but Quite well. Thank you very much. It's just quite an enjoyable video to watch. So I you know personally am not really into the whiskies. I've never quite been able to get over that burning sensation. So I suppose it goes for wine as well but at what point is it just the case if you just keep trying stuff periodically until you realize you can start to develop this sort of palette for for these sorts of spirits and wines or is it something that you think you can just kind of train yourself to do? Is it a case of you just can you can keep going back to it ah yeah bit by bit and then eventually your panel will change or is it kind of like okay once I get to
00:22:52
Speaker
you know two years time then my palate might switch up completely because we all know palates change and develop that way. That's a really good question because I do think it is quite different and for me personally, Scotch whisky and cognac spirits basically came quite a bit later after wine. I've been doing wine for years. Wine is a really sociable thing. you don't need You can be drinking it without necessarily thinking about it and it's quite it I think it's much easier to to wrap your head around and to get started with it. Whiskey, I found that the times I've become, well spirits generally, become most passionate as when I've been there. So shooting the shows, which I was so lucky to do. So our first three drinkers was in Scotland. And you really get to spend time with the Master Distillers to understand them, to be in the place where the cereals are grown and to understand the water.
00:23:42
Speaker
and it's being taken through those by someone who really knows what they're talking about and is to has the capability, like Dr. Bill Lumsden from Glenmorangie, for example. He's also a wine lover, he also loves perfume, and you can tell, but just the way he describes things and the nuances between all of them, it's being there on site with something like scotch is just the most incredible thing. ah you know And just with Richard again at Dalmore, completely different experience again, But yeah, it's being there on the site, I think really, really helps. So if you chat if you can get to a place that you want to know about, so go to Scotland if you're into Scotch, goda go to Cognac if you're into Cognac. as I mean, Cognac really doesn't have a great reputation, although it's rising up thanks to the bartending community. but
00:24:29
Speaker
In terms of the spirit in itself, it's it's there are so many different kinds and it's so nuanced and it's such a lovely thing to do to know about as well and to learn how to drink it so you you know it's not just for mixing and you can just it's something that you can sip slowly over time which is very different from just a glub glub drinking wine experience. Yeah, I don't think there's many drinks that you could do that where you can just savour it, especially when you come into the realms of like cocktails as well because they just go down like squash a lot of the time. If you get a good one and an enjoyable one, then a few of those down, you realise you're in a bit of trouble. But yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely given me more, more of a
00:25:07
Speaker
inkling to go and try these things again. I've got this brandy that's sitting in there the deep dark depths of the cupboard alongside ah and alongside some other random spirit that I don't really know the name of but it is interesting to just try the different things and refine it that way I think. but also so sorry they go on It's a way into geography, it's a way into anthropology, it's a way into culture and history. I mean, there's just so much more to it usually than being a drink. And that's why things like Scotch and Cognac are so fascinating, things that go back like thousands and thousands of years. you you it's It's not just the experience of what you're tasting, it's everything you're learning with it.
00:25:50
Speaker
I think that's ah applicable to a lot of things as well. I quite enjoy a cigar of an occasion. yeah And I went down into Davidoff in London, I don't know if you've ever been in, but um German street. There's a shop called Davidoff and there's a father and son, so the Sahakians that run it. And just to hear, just their passion about how they talk about the cigars. And and again, we're going into the realms of astounding pretentious again, but now, but you just learn a bit more about, you know, he would he picked out a cigar for me and he was, you know, I was asking him about, what are you looking for when you're picking out a certain cigar? And he's telling me about, you know, some of them can be a little bit too tightly wrapped. So the draw is not as good and and you get all the different strengths. You can get lighter cigars, you can get shorter ones. ah
00:26:36
Speaker
don't burn as long at or if you want to really allocate some time for yourself you can have ones that burn for a sort of 40-50 minutes a little bit more full body you can have them with a coffee and espresso or you have them with a you know like a cognac or something similar and it's just and I think I was talking to a friend about this because we were we were talking about all things from fragrance through to you know watches and cigars and and even we got into the topic of shaving you know, so a lot of random different topics, but he he kind of put it quite suynthesis you've made so succinctly that he said the finer things in life, that's what he was calling it, he coined it the finer things in life. And I think that was kind of nail on the head there when you kind of start to, you're you're purposefully taking the time to enjoy something, be it wine, be it spirit,
00:27:27
Speaker
Be it your cigar, you're sitting down, you're being present in that moment and you're really trying to enjoy that the whole experience. And that's everything from the birth of the grape in on the vine through to when it's pressed and you finally pour it out and enjoying it. There's a whole history that's gone into making that and bringing it to your table. And I think that's such a nice thing to think about. And it's not something we do think about very often because it's just so readily available to us. We just pop down the shop and pick it up, but there's not so much history behind it. You should get him on. I mean, I want to get him on my podcast. I want to know about that. I don't even smoke cigars. But i you know yeah, but its
00:28:05
Speaker
yeah how speaking listening to somebody speak so passionately about something that you've always known as a thing, but never actually had the excuse to really do a deep dive on it. Love that. Yeah, I'm going to do it. You should too. Yeah, I'm going to. I'll get him on. I'm trying to do a bit more on the YouTube now, so maybe it'll be a walk around one because that'll probably be a bit more informative, I think. um So I was reading an article recently about alcohol consumption in the UK and it was saying that white wine was probably the nation's favourite drink and over 70% of adults drink alcohol at least once a week. But I've also noticed there's been quite a large shift towards people doing sobriety now and either going completely teetotal or at least
00:28:51
Speaker
having a break from alcohol, you know, things like sober October and dry January and things like that. And with that, we've seen quite a big rise in the amount of non-alcoholic spirits or low alcohol versions that have become available. So I wanted to ask, firstly, have you had much exposure to any of those stuff? Does that fall within the remit of what you what you do? massively. In fact, I'm trying to make it fall more into my remit because ah but as you know, I'm trying to move away from a life that's completely all about alcohol and this year, thankfully, there have been some amazing brands come to the fore. Lots of them launched in January during Dry Jan. I'm really interested in this area and so I'm making it my business to find out who's out there and who's doing what because we've moved on, I think, from the
00:29:37
Speaker
the expensive sort of gin-alikes that aren't gin but they're still really expensive and that really it's just pumping yourself sort of sugar to a more kind of functional alternative that doesn't really fit any other drink's gap or space rather. It's its own thing and that's what I'm really really enjoying because I think what I need personally as someone who drinks way too much is a delicious drink that's complex, that's not packed full of sugar, that might also have some benefits to me, whether that's helping me to chill out in a natural way through nootropics and adaptogens or gabber technology, or it's just got some really good stuff in it. Yeah, it's massive. I want to know all about this stuff.
00:30:17
Speaker
Have you ever been, so obviously your your exposure to a lot of alcohol being doing what you're doing, has there ever been a concern for you in terms of like the longevity and I know there's a lot of scaremongering around alcohol and its long-term effects on health and correlation versus causation on, you know, the health issues and ailments you can get in in later life? Has there ever been a concern for you? Yeah, definitely, especially since COVID, where our consumption, which was high anyway, kind of went through the roof because all the drinks came to me and I wasn't going out to tastings. And they you know they were coming full bottles and I was doing lots of Zoom tastings and they were open. So, a bit of a recipe for disaster. And you know and since then, and my age as well, my mid-40s now, you know I'm aware of these sort of flashing lights, headlines and things, but
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah, I must say since talking to Professor David Nutz, as I did on my podcast about GABA technology and the dangers of alcohol, it's really, really hammered at home. Like the fact that it's now the the biggest killer of men under 50 and probably within probably is already actually the biggest killer of women my age. And it's all the stuff. it It's all, you know, It's all the stuff that you're not necessarily aware of that's going to cause a big problem. So it's not like you're waking up and drinking a bottle of vodka. It's just that you can happily down a bottle of wine a night and you don't even really notice it a lot of the time, the whole wine o'clock thing, the trying to get through kids' tea time. um And it's just been so normalized, especially when you see it on TV all the time and it glamorized and things like Desperate Housewives. There never used to be wine on the table 24 hours a day. you know Professor Nutt brought this up to me and said, this is all quite new.
00:31:56
Speaker
And it just leads to massive consumption. And in this country, less so for the younger people, but for people my age, it's a real problem. Like just that, in not insipid, what do I mean? Insidious drinking that's just often, little and often, little and often, and sometimes a lot often. I think it's ah it's the social aspect as well because I think I heard someone describe it as once as alcohol is the only drug that people tell you off for if you're not taking it essentially. It's like they give you a hard time by not doing it even though it's kind of like the drug. Whereas any other drug they'll be like, well, why are you taking that sort of drug?
00:32:32
Speaker
That's so true. That's so true. It's a peer pressure. I feel like if people, you know, I'm guilty of it as well. I feel like people are saving their fun for someone else. If I know that they do drink sometimes, but they're choosing not to if they're out with me. You know what I mean? That's awful. And the other thing is if you if you have to drink to be around certain people, then they're probably not the kind of people you want to be around. Like if you have to have a drink to be able to withstand their company, then it's probably an indicator that they're probably not the best friends for you maybe i don't know
00:33:02
Speaker
so I mean that that is a point but you know being a highly sensitive person as I am you know officially an HSP I get overwhelmed with humans all the time and so I find annoyingly it really helps like especially things like parents nights or where there's lots of people there's lots of nights it just gives me this little bat shield which the is not a good thing yes best it's not necessarily friends for you, the people specific people maybe? it's I don't just all people know. We'll cover that by saying you're probably not, you're not downing whole bottles a day with what you're doing. It's, it's a very, you know, taking it out on the news. No, i yeah I spit for work. I swallow for sure. So um in addition to your your wine adventures and your three drinkers, you mentioned that you're starting a new magazine and and lifestyle sort of um area with your podcast and things like that. So Flock and Hive. So can you tell us a little bit more about what you're doing with that?
00:33:58
Speaker
Absolutely, and thank you. Yes, so Flockenheive is my part two of life project, something that I've always wanted to do actually, but I've never had the ah chance to do it before. And I'm hoping that it will lead me away from so much booze. I mean, for a while I'm going to do both. Of course I have to, I have to pay the bills as well. But yes, so Flock and Hive is a podcast and a magazine, and it's all about continual learning because that's what makes us human. And it's like a chocolate box of curiosity of things you've always wanted to know a little bit more about, as well as things you didn't even know you wanted to know about. So it's quite eclectic. But the five pillars that I've chosen for it to sort of focus on, as it were, are kind of based a bit on Stoic philosophy that I've i've adapted for 2024.
00:34:47
Speaker
but So the subjects, these pillars, they fall under these and they are like science and nature, travel and adventure, food and drink, energy and spirituality. I always forget the last one.
00:35:02
Speaker
travel and adventure, food and drink, science and science is a nature, artistry and culture, that's it, artistry and culture, there we go. I still i should know that better. But essentially what that is, you know, where're I'm asking ah questions about science, so I'm talking to Professor David Nutt, I'm talking to Professor Barry Smith about our census and how they cross over, but I'm also talking to mediums about how they speak to dead people over Zoom. and perfumery masters about where to get started if you want to get into that and this week it's going to all be about bees and things that you never knew about bees that you need to know for example so very eclectic
00:35:41
Speaker
nice sounds like a one like a one-stop shop for anything you need to know relating to anything essentially not being human yeah i i thought you had some quite interesting guests on and you mentioned earlier about the perfumery there and then there was one uh around anosmia so that was the the partial full loss of smell and it was really interesting to hear like how how much it we we take for granted about how much our smell contributes to everything from and warning of dangers of you know food that may be a little bit past its best or contributing to the flavors overall. I know there was a company that was doing something quite clever with water bottles and they had ah
00:36:22
Speaker
air up like a yeah that was it and like a scent disc it within the water bottle so you would be plain water but you would taste i've not tried it so i can't confirm or deny if it's any good or not but you can taste like orange juice if you have orange as a as a thing which i think is super interesting have you tried that air up before I have, my my children have them, they're expensive, they but but they were a real trend in schools actually, but it's a brilliant idea. So it's basically, the kids are just drinking water, but I have the sensation that it's flavoured because of retranasal, whatever it's called, where, you know, if you smell something, you you detect it as flavour, because flavour really is 80% more or less smell anyway. That's what it how it works. But you can get lots of different discs, lots of different flavours, and people, like, kids swap them,
00:37:09
Speaker
and And it's just a great way of getting them to drink more water, out adults too as well, it's very clever. Yeah, so I've not tried it, i left ah I'll have to give it here at some point. And then I noticed there was one about the the fragrance one, so I've actually, I listened to an episode with ah Jo Malone, I think it was the Gentleman's Journal podcast, and they had Jo Malone on. Now obviously, Jo Malone's not owned by Jo Malone anymore, but she does her own line called Jo Loves now. But she was saying that she's got a unique sort of hypersensitive nose. So ah and I think this obviously comes back to wine and spirits as well. We're talking about how your your nose is kind of contributes to your enjoyment and the experience you have for these spirits and wines.
00:37:51
Speaker
But she was saying she could smell something really unusual, like the backs of a dog's ears, for example. So she was able to create these, obviously, these scents and these perfumes that were so unique, just because she had this hypersensitive nose that could smell things that other people couldn't. So it was like her superpower, so to speak. She has synesthesia as well, which is where your senses cross over in really bonkers ways. yeah Only 4% of the population have that. so she i think would she So she has a really heightened sense of smell, but she also sees smells as colours and and or as sounds as well, I think. but I see smells as colours when I've had too, Mr. Treat. I hope wonder if you said that too.
00:38:32
Speaker
so That's west what I've had too, was cognac and I'm not used to it. No, that's a good thing. I'd love to see what Jo Malone does could do with spells based on spirits and wine. I actually met her at a dinner party once, didn't know she was going to be there, embarrassingly dripping in a Jo Malone, one of her original scents. She loves wine. She really loves fine wine. So one day I'm going to manifest that here and now. You heard it here first. That's it. Did she know it was her scent? Did she pick up on it? Yep. That's asked to amazing. And I just went straight in with, oh, hello, I'm Helena and I'm wearing you. no yeah There's not many people we can use that line with us. ah and like I mean, fragrance for me is something I really enjoy as well, to be honest, because I feel like certain scents, I find fragrance very personal. So I don't often like getting more fragrance unless it's someone who knows exactly what I like. Because otherwise you end up with
00:39:28
Speaker
bottles of fragrance that you just kind of relegate to, you know, when you're trying to do something and just get rid of it, which I think obviously defeats the purpose of A, a gift, and B, fragrance in general. And I also don't like having the, you know, just reserving one for special occasions. It is nice to do that, but I feel like, you know, scents should be quite personal to you, so I try and keep them in rotation and see. um there's something i've really enjoyed about fragrance is that they often evoke a sense of like a memory or or something that you you can relate to so i went into a shop the other day and it was just reminded me of you know being on holiday in the
00:40:06
Speaker
and on the beach or something and it was for my partner or something completely different it reminded me of something completely different and you know it's like the scent of say hot chocolate for example it always anytime I smell hot chocolate it always reminds me of when I was younger my dad used to take me to football it'd be like a frosty warning really cold ice cold on the ground And he'd always bring a flask of hot chocolate. So anytime I just smell hot chocolate, I immediately just get transported back to this sort of wintery morning when with dad playing football. um And it's just lovely. It's just some of the memories you can get that are evoked by the different sense that you, you know, you encounter, you know, what's, what's fragrance to you and why are you interested in fragrance?
00:40:49
Speaker
Oh, gosh, I mean, I i love that. I think yeah that whole Proustian memory, it's such a gift, I think, the the memories that you can have to through sense. And I know that yeah with people with dementia, that's one way of reaching them, which is just such a beautiful thing. um I have so many. I i didn't think ah didn't think that fragrance was necessarily a part of my life until I started doing a perfume diplomary. Perfumery daflura says it. There's been a lot of tongue twists in this episode. yeah They're really hard, aren't there? Well, my interest now is very much, you know, I want to continue to use my senses as I move away from wine and perfumery is ah an amazing way of doing that because it really scratches that itch of just immersing myself and smell.
00:41:36
Speaker
But yeah but i I can plot my life, as I'm sure a lot of people can, of the perfumes I've had throughout my life, even from quite a young age, that I thought I'd forgotten about. I can even i can just sort of you think about them. they're They're right back there. I can even smell them, and I'm thinking of them. The different yeah hauntings of different boyfriends from various aftershaves, as we called them back then. how Clinique happy was actually a beautiful time when I was living in Rome or Ralph Lauren romance That was one ah the first one I bought myself when I was 16 of feeling kind of sexy and I really liked the advert basically
00:42:09
Speaker
Yeah, i I kind of plot life moments of that, but I think my favorite is is actually a Jo Malone one, the one I was wearing when I met her, funny enough, that was, they've discontinued, but it was it was based on fig and kind of little bit of lavender and star leaves, but it just smelled like the south of France. And I wore that for my wedding, those and I specifically wore it around the time of my wedding on my wedding day and on my honeymoon. So now if I smell that, That's a really, really happy memory.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. That's awesome. And just, ah so I work quite a lot of florists, which is, it's the oldest perfumery in, I think it's either in England or the world. I can't remember which one, but um but they they do some amazing stuff and they've got to get another shop down in London, which is just, you just go in and the scent's just amazing. You can smell, there's one which smells just like, just your fresh leather and there's just so many different scents out there that each, you can you can pick them up and it just transports you to a certain place and it's really interesting. i am do you Do you think that with your experience in in wine spirits and everything like that, where you you obviously rely on your nose quite a lot, as you have you noticed a sort of a notable shift in how you perceive smells now or have you noticed like a development of your ability to smell different things?
00:43:34
Speaker
Well, it's really helped my vocab. So I've been in wine for 24 years and the last, last 10 of them at least have been having to smell things and and picking out exactly what the, but what's in them, essentially. The perfumery has actually really helped with that. I've got, I've got ah like a bigger bank of words that I can use now. yeah at The Asda tasting on about wine 76. Even when I'm sort of flagging a bit and a beautiful orange wine, I'm like, it's really ylang-a-lang and orange blossom. And so I can be a lot more specific now. And yeah know the other way round, the wine tasting has really, really helped the perfumery because I think I've got a bit of a head start there because i'm my brain is is trained to sort of really narrow down what it is and and actually put into words.
00:44:19
Speaker
what I am what I am smelling and and I'm a very I've always come to thought visually when I smell things I don't have synesthesia but it's it's cross modal it's similar lots of us have that kind of element where we might see color with certain words and things ah but but yeah but the perfumery works very much on on visuals as well like you you can if you were making a perfume for example you you could just draw a picture and that's your brief it's like you know it's a beautiful sunny day on a beach make it smell like that too Yeah. Just think about the elements in it. Yeah, so there's lots of crossover. I really like it. So where where are you hoping to take that perfumery? Are you but are we going to see a flock of knives line coming out later in the later in the year?
00:45:01
Speaker
Well, i mean certainly not later in the year. I've got a long way to go. I would love to do something with it. um ah it's quite It's early days, so I don't know. I imagine that there will be a collab at some point where I actually work with someone who really knows what they're doing, but I want to have enough of ah of an education to be able to really lead that. I imagine that's what will happen. and Yeah, but I would love to sense spaces, I think. It's something I've always been fascinated in. I know people, Izzy Glaser is a perfumer who really specializes in setting a scene with scent, for example. So you want someone to feel something when they walk in a room, either for an event or because it's a nice hotel. We rarely think of the fact that that's been really thought about, but it has a lot of the time. And yeah, I'd i'd love to work in that.
00:45:51
Speaker
excellent I just want to go back to the wine a minute and we've talked about obviously how we can, you know, there's certain differences between spirits versus wine and maybe what you're looking for and in a tasting. But for someone who is literally, you know, quite early on in their wine journey, and they're looking for, ah do you have like a baseline or a process that you could use that you know exactly what you could repeat each time you try a wine and that would really help you to sort of distinguish between the different sort of flavours and what you're experiencing? Because you mentioned about putting them side by side, but is there a certain methodology you would you'd recommend in how to taste wines?
00:46:32
Speaker
and Yeah, taste wine like a detective. I think that's what that's what the pros say. um So what is it, but also what isn't it? And I think that is why compare comparison is really helpful. So I think if you are wanting to learn about a grape, get three of them from different places, a hot place and a cold place usually, and you just, you take it a step at the time. you know, what colour is it? White wine, yeah, but one might be slightly greeny, one might be really gold, one might be almost orange. You know, colour makes a difference and it will help you, and it will help you learn and you'll know what those colours actually mean. like it's For example, as a white wine gets older, it will get darker. So you know, okay, that's either got oak or it's a little bit more aged, or there's skin contact or something else is going on. So what does it look like? What's it smell like? And just, it's
00:47:20
Speaker
easy It's so subjective. i think it's it's just habit it It's having a go. and like If you think it smells a sweaty feet, it smells a sweaty feet. At some point you'll find a professional word that you can translate that into, but just you go with something that you're going to remember rather than what you think the pros are meant to say. yeah it's It's got to make sense to your brain. So yeah, looking, smelling, tasting, but also texture. You know, give it time. Don't just glug it back because we have receptors all over our mouths. So just swallowing, it means you miss most things. So get it all around. You know, do that really pretentious and kind of disgusting slurping noise, because then you'll know whether it's got, you know, is it, is is it chalky if it's a white wine? No. Could that be, maybe that's a shabbily or something like that, for example, or, you know, is it really tooth drying, tannic? Is it really,
00:48:06
Speaker
is it If a heavy red wine, that means it's probably more likely to be like something like a Cabernet as opposed to a Pinot Noir. Every little thing is a clue, and then of course the finish breathing out. So it's it's not looking at all those things at once, it's just it's taking them in that order and taking your time. Perfect. That sounds amazing. So that's it on the wine and element. I just want to talk a little bit more about what's next really for you then with Flock and Hive. You've had quite a diverse range of guests. Have there been any standout guests you've had at the moment that's really been like an eye opener for you in that element?
00:48:41
Speaker
um yeah Well, all of them, I always finish just going, wow, i I'm so happy I had that conversation. I've learned so much. I think in terms of what hit me hardest, David Nutt and the dangers of alcohol, given my job, but um and it really made me think about what I do with the wine side in the future because I'm kind of peddling poison. and So that's made me think that one, the one of functional mushrooms with Alex Kent from Isle of Wight Mushrooms was fascinating because I really, I knew it was a thing but I wanted to know a bit more about things like lion's mane and cordyceps and reishi and actually the incredible
00:49:21
Speaker
how of them to heal and you know the reasons why we don't see them all over the place basically because big pharma can't make money out of them and you can't pay attention to mushroom. um just but but But also even like kinesiology and how people can work on you remotely with ah it's you know this quantum physics based energy fields and all of this and it just sounds like it shouldn't work but I've tried it and it really does uh those three particularly i think but all of them i get so much personally out of every single conversation which which is why i really hope other people will do when they listen that sounds really good i'm looking forward to uh to seeing what else is is coming out so you got the podcast scott magazine is it gonna be is it just digital at the moment or are there gonna be any physicals coming out or is it
00:50:07
Speaker
ah There's no plans for a physical paper, but if someone wants to take me on a pay for all of that, I would love to have one. for like is a is yeah Yeah, that would be the dream. That would be the dream. Yeah, there's a newsletter as well, which is well worth subscribing to, obviously. Yeah, I mean, that's the plan for now, but there will be the odd product and there will be the odd event. And then hopefully, eventually, there will be a global Netflix series. But ah watch this space. Oh, that's exciting. Is there any more in the pipeline for three drinkers or are you kind of concluded on that now as well? We're having a break because we did two on the bounce and it was exhausting essentially. um There probably will be. We may do them with each other. We may do them with other people. The door is still open. and I personally would love to do one on wine. and I'm just going to have a bit of a think about that for now.
00:50:57
Speaker
Excellent. Perfect. So if anyone wants to find out a bit more about Flock and Hive and they want to understand a bit more about what you do and listen to the podcast, where is the best place to go? Ah, thank you for asking. So flockandhive.com, that is the website and the e-magazine and there's a link to the podcast on there, but the podcast is Flock and Hive podcast. It can be found on all platforms, basically. And on socials, we are at Flock and Hive, so pretty easy to find. So you do that with your sister, don't you? I do, yeah, yeah. That's a nice little thing to do, at least a nice little thing to keep the family element going as well. It's been really nice, yeah. Perfect. Well, Helena, thank you so much for your time today. I've really enjoyed this one and learnt a lot, so I'll be, maybe not just yet, but maybe this afternoon or my evening I might get some wine out and maybe have a little taste. You know, it's a little rogue for a Monday, but we'll see.
00:51:54
Speaker
Not in my world, but thank you for having me. Thank you.