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Michael Cole: Automotive Executive - "Be prepared to try something different"
33 Plays4 months ago
Michael Cole is a recently retired Automotive executive, becoming the first Non-Korean native to ever hold the position of President/CEO for Hyundai Motors Europe. He has held various senior executive roles across Europe and the US for the likes of Hyundai, Kia, and Toyota, and has overseen a period of growth within these companies during difficult times in the automotive industry through the likes of the pandemic, with continual fierce competition from long established Automotive companies.
In this episode, we take a glimpse into what it takes to build a successful career in a highly competitive field; Why you should always remain curious and willing to try something new, how failure isn't always as bad as you might think; Why a 5-10 year plan might be hurting your personal development more than helping it, and much more.
This is not just an episode for the automotive enthusiast.
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Transcript
Introduction to Michael Cole
00:00:00
Speaker
Wonderful. Right. Michael Cole, thank you very much for for joining me on Perspectives. It's a great pleasure to have you on. And I'd like to start with bit of an introduction, but i normally like to hand over the reins to my guests and ask them to do the introduction themselves. So if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about who you are and and what you do, or should say you're weird at this point, but yeah.
00:00:21
Speaker
Okay. Okay, thanks, Rhys. Well, thanks for having me on. and Yeah, I'm ah now a retired automoive automotive executive. I spent something like 41 years working in the automotive business. I started in retail. ah so I'm probably going to talk about I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I was leaving school. I'm thinking about going to college. And I sort of, I suppose, drifted into automotive through accountancy. I trained as an accountant and started in a car dealership business.
00:00:50
Speaker
And that became something that just evolved into a much broader career, moving out of accountancy into sort of general management eventually through field roles.
Career at Hyundai and Retirement Decision
00:01:00
Speaker
And then spent, as say, more than 40 years in what I think is one of the most exciting industries. I guess people often say that the business they've been in a long time, but a business that you can always talk to people about. Most people have an interest in cars. um or a lot of people have an interesting car so to have worked in a business that was so vibrant so you know dynamic and to be honest in the last 10 years changed dramatically um it it meant that i never got bored with what i did um i feel very fortunate to have worked in the interest so long and worked with so many great people and some great brands you know moved from different car companies And finished my career at the end of last year with Hyundai Motor Group, ah where for the last four and a half years I was running the European operation, sales, marketing, manufacturing, basically the the the whole ah gambit of the business. So that was where I called it a day ah last year, decided that it was time to come back to the UK. I'd left the UK in 2012, really, and wanted to be out with family and and give give more back to them because they've made lots of sacrifices over that, well, family, certainly the last 30 years.
00:02:13
Speaker
and So yeah, that's it. Automotive guy through and through. I'm happy to talk about any aspect of that or my career that you would like me to cover. Perfect. Well, as you can see from the the posters behind me, I think you've you've come to the right place if you're into yeah the automotive world. i' got my Goodwood mug as well. so were might I've been there many times. yeah gra Great, great event there. My study is plastered with it at the moment. So yeah. Good for you. Perfect. Well, thank you. it's I mean, it's yeah as you say, it's here it's an incredibly interesting time at the moment for for the automotive world.
Evolution of Electric Vehicles
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah, we see that massive sort of seismic shift towards the reduction of emissions and the yeah the rise of electrification, of course. And you know i was actually curious to know well you know what the spark for the EV kind of interest would be. And I started doing a little bit of research around kind of the history of EVs. And I was actually really surprised to know that the first EV created was actually back as far as the 1890s. So there's a chap called ah William Morrison, who did a he did a six passenger vehicle, 14 horsepower electric motor.
00:03:19
Speaker
um And then of course that was sort of, you had the rise of the Henry Ford's Model T and then they that kind of popularized the um ah kind of car industry is as we know it today.
00:03:31
Speaker
But I wanted to focus for this conversation on on your own on a personal journey through that career rather than the wider industry.
Extended Tenures and Company Culture
00:03:38
Speaker
And one of the things I found particularly interesting about your career is is the length of time that you had in each of your roles. So um ah scouring your LinkedIn page, you know you had nine nine years on board, 15 years at at Toyota, and then obviously moving across to you did some time at Kia for sort of Kia UK for three years, five years in the the European sector, and then in the US as well. And then obviously you've just mentioned about your your time in Hyundai Motors as well.
00:04:05
Speaker
Nowadays, the common advice that gets peddled is you should stay maybe two, to three years in a role and then seek to either move into a new role in another company or or perhaps of seek a a different role internally. but But that seems to be the kind of sweet spot that they peddle at the moment for, know, aiding progression or climbing the ladder, um you know, getting that pay rise that you want, all that sort of stuff. So i was curious to know, what was the reason behind you staying at these companies for such an extended period?
00:04:37
Speaker
You know, Rhys, I guess it shows how things do change over generations because you remind me when you make that comment that when I was setting out and I so i didn't know what I wanted to do when I was leaving school, um I remember my father giving me the advice to say, you know, get into a big company, get a career,
00:04:56
Speaker
Get on the ladder because you'll get a pension. Stay with that company and they'll look after you. And I guess that was the sort of mindset I probably had when I started out in in my career. um Although I think initially for a lot of people, you start one job and probably don't stay too long because when you're younger, you I think that that hasn't changed. You still have this urge to want to try different things, meet different people. So whilst do you talk about my nine years with Ford, I did only about 18 months with the first group. It was ah a big London group called Godfrey Davis. And I went there as and as a trainee accountant.
00:05:30
Speaker
and But I did then get into a ah a role in a company. It was a big Ford dealership in Maidenhead, very successful, loved it. And to be honest, I think I stayed there too long because I did probably have that thought at the time that this was it was actually part of, believe it or not, it became part of the TSB Bank, I don't know where, that which is now Lloyd. So we were part of a B entity, a good pension scheme, and it seemed like it was ah a group that would be a good place to build a career. And and I stayed there, but regretted it later because ah think this chance to have new experiences and try different things was something that I soon realized was more important for me to to to grow individually and professionally.
Diverse Roles and Continuous Learning
00:06:13
Speaker
However, what I would say is I think it depends to a degree then the organization you get into because, This is where, listen, my final and biggest role was with Hyundai Motor Group. So I am a Hyundai fan more than anything else. I am still, ah ah you know, I see myself as a brand ambassador for Hyundai.
00:06:32
Speaker
But I have to give great compliment to Toyota because Toyota is not only a great automotive company, ah but it's a great employer, a very strong ethical company as well. And and Toyota was brilliant for me because I joined there when I was,
00:06:48
Speaker
about 30 years old, just around the time I was getting married. And I spent 15 years at Toyota, and I think it had eight or nine different jobs. And across all sorts of different parts of the the organization, whether it was you know financial services, sales, marketing, after sales, fleet sales,
00:07:10
Speaker
and And that gave me the opportunity to keep learning new things and to you know expand my knowledge and breadth and knowledge of the automotive business, which is the business I'd decided by then that I was going to spend my career in. So I think it varies. If you're in an organization that is...
00:07:30
Speaker
respecting its people and wants to develop its people, you don't need to necessarily be moving organization. Now, not everyone has the opportunity, but I'd have say it's something Toyota was very good at. I i am in a cohort, I guess, of people people I still know now. Other people have went on to much more senior roles within not only Toyota, but other car companies. and i And I think that's where I felt I probably got lucky to some degree with the company that I joined as a first sort of global organization. Getting into Toyota was was fantastic for for my development and my career. So that was why I guess I i did
Transition to Kia and Hyundai
00:08:06
Speaker
that. I stayed 15 years at Toyota.
00:08:08
Speaker
To be honest, I was going to stay longer. I was about to move to European role with them when I got approached by Kia. And i hadn't and't been thinking of leaving Toyota. I'd otherwise stayed there quite happily. But I heard all about Kia was, this is 2009 Kia, part of the Hyundai Motor Group.
00:08:28
Speaker
It was a really exciting time. It was an opportunity for ah for a brand coming from Korea, which was a rapidly growing economy, ah a hugely ambitious nation. I can talk about Korean people, favorable time, wonderful, wonderful people. And i saw this opportunity to be in at something new. Toyota was a big organization, very successful, very successful, not any globally, but in the UK. Kia was a small brand, not so well known.
00:08:59
Speaker
products were probably not seen as so attractive ah or on are not established in the market. And I saw the opportunity to go there as the managing director for the UK and really, you know, ah help help a new brand become a, you know, a major player in the market. And certainly, you know, and I...
00:09:19
Speaker
obviously only played a small part in that for Kia in the UK, but they have proved their ability to go on and do that. And that that was hugely exciting. And of course, that brought me to other opportunities.
00:09:29
Speaker
And I would never have considered working for any other automotive brand or other automotive company than the Hyundai Motor Group. It's such a a dynamic, fast-forward thinking ah organization that I had a great, well, in the end, just over 15 years with them.
00:09:46
Speaker
So to a degree, it's not only about you as a person, but it's about the organization you're with. And if the organization gives you opportunities, say Toyota was earlier in my career, so there were more sort of middle management roles, but you mentioned, i think in your intro, you know, Kia UK, Kia Europe, Kia US, then back with Hyundai, opportunity to work in different continents with different brands with different responsibilities. And for me, that was always what was more important than trying to change to find a new employer, you know, to constantly have that challenge and to try new things.
Passion for Automotive Industry
00:10:23
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. now it's um you You mentioned there about, you know, obviously it's clear your passion came across the vieve for the sector. Was there a a distinctive moment where you kind of knew that this is the the industry wanted to stay in? Yes, absolutely. In fact, I missed out one little bit of my career and I don't know if it's even on LinkedIn or whatever, but I i think I told you I i i joined...
00:10:46
Speaker
I went into the the business um because someone I knew was a family friend. he He gave me some career advice in a pub on Friday night. I was probably 18 in the pub. And he said, do you know what you're going And i said, not not a clue, John. I don't know whether I should do any further education. And... I just want to go and get a job. And he said, well, you need to get a qualification. he said, you know, um he said, you're good with numbers. I'd always been good. No, he said, why don't you do an accountancy qualification? He said, if you do, I'll give you a job as a trainee accountant at the Ford dealership in London.
00:11:18
Speaker
So i said, okay. So I went off and did my year, got my foundation course and then started with them. But he then moved on. He he moved within the UK to set up his own Ford dealership. And I lost a bit of enthusiasm for like the the the job I was doing. So I looked for another job local to home and actually left the automotive industry. So I've been 18 months with this Ford dealership in London. I joined a big industrial, huge industrial company in Slough as an assistant accountant.
00:11:50
Speaker
And I remember sort of going through the door the first morning, nice people sat in an office and thought, oh, this is dull. You know, it was just an office and we had a big factory that was producing some electrical conduits out the back, which meant nothing to me.
00:12:04
Speaker
And I'd spent the previous 18 months working and as accountant in a car dealership where Everything was happening every day, you know, fast moving retail business, sales service, you know, body repair, whatever. It was just fun. And to suddenly be an accountant in an office when there was things happening in the back of the building that I didn't understand,
00:12:25
Speaker
I realized I've made a mistake. And it was only because I guess there were such nice people and given me an opportunity. I stayed for about nine months and I just couldn't wait to get back and kept looking for the right opportunity to get back into a automotive role as an accountant. And that's how I got into the the job I did and this big Ford dealership in Maidenhead. And to say, after that decided there was nothing else I was ever going to do. I was going to be an automotive.
00:12:53
Speaker
And, ah you know, Didn't know what what would that would be. I mean, I was obviously on the retail side in those days. I actually did consider. ah I was probably about 27, 28. I considered opening my own dealership. I looked at a few opportunities with different brands. Didn't do that. And to be honest, I think...
00:13:13
Speaker
In many respects, that was better for me because ah I enjoyed them making the transition from working in retail to going into you know the the OEM, into the the global car company sort of ah ah roles. that That excited me even more because it it opens up...
00:13:32
Speaker
Huge opportunity, ah you know not just in terms of retailing, but then in terms of that whole national or international sales and marketing manufacturing. And that was, i guess, what I found so fulfilling to be involved in the whole range of the of the business from Even at the end, you know, giving all my input on designs for cars that are still not on the road yet today, you know, getting involved in that design process all the way through to the manufacturing, the distribution, and then the ultimate sale and customer
Growth Through New Experiences
00:14:03
Speaker
experience.
00:14:05
Speaker
That's me. So it's, I mean, most industries you you only yet get ah like, you only ever see a a very small portion of the work that you do. So I can understand how that must be quite a refreshing experience to be involved in kind of the whole product life cycle from designers, seeing it through and. and when you're talking about moving around there, it sounds like you, you had a, you know real curiosity to learn and and develop, which I think people get stuck in roles and, um, industries at the moment and, or not at at the moment, but just throughout their career, it's, you know, you, you, you heart back to what you were saying before about, um,
00:14:46
Speaker
It was a career, you used to be career men. He used to be like, you'd have that one job and you know, I met, I met one guy at a place I used to work at and they had like a annual awards evening. And then couple of people had 25 years.
00:14:59
Speaker
There are a few more that had like 30 years. And then there are a group of people who had 40 years experience. Yeah. Well, at this point I nearly fall off my chair. And there was one person who had had 50 years at the same industry.
00:15:12
Speaker
And to me, I mean, congratulations to him. That's obviously, yeah obviously he has obviously loved it enough, but that sounded like the worst thing in the world to me. Like I couldn't imagine spending that much time in the same place. Yet people get very, very stuck in the company they work for. They get comfortable, they get...
00:15:29
Speaker
the house comes along, the mortgage, the kids, the dog, the car. um So that kind of ability to transition to new roles and you know take the leap into maybe something a bit different can be quite off-putting for some people.
00:15:43
Speaker
yeah Is there anything you can say to so kind of- well Well, you hit on it. You talked about comfort. it's It's career advice I've given, i don't know, for how many years now. you know Always say to people, I remember, I guess it was in my days at Toyota particularly. um When I first joined there, I did a role which was what they call business development manager. I was going around talking to dealers about how they could improve the business. I did that for 18 months. Then I did a sales role for...
00:16:11
Speaker
probably about two years, two and a half years. And then an opportunity came up to go and do like a secondment to the financial services Toyota organization.
00:16:22
Speaker
And I was offered it. And I remember lots of people said to me, well, you don't want to do that. You know, it's into financial services away from the sales business. And I said, yeah, but it's another experience. It's ah it's another learning. um And I did that. And I've done it number of times in in my career. and i And I have this thing i say to people, come out of your comfort zone.
00:16:43
Speaker
You know, sometimes it may not seem like the obvious choice, ah but it is that. It wasn't that I had a fear of being stuck in the same job, um but i but I knew from my time, I mentioned the job at Maidenheader. I think I i became...
00:16:59
Speaker
I became company accountant or financial director there when I was about 24. And I was still there when I was 29, 30. And I realized doing a job five or six years won the same job, but as fun as it was, because in retail, every day is different. and So as much as I enjoyed that job for five, six years, I realized I was getting tired. And do you know the what it was one day? Someone came to see me and asked something. And I'm a very easygoing person. always try and be very positive. I snapped at them a bit.
00:17:29
Speaker
And when they left, i saw i under my breath, I went, an idiot. you know And then I sat back and I thought, actually, I'm being unreasonable. It's me. You know, I've been in this too long and I'm now assuming that everyone else should know what I know about this. And and I think that was a subconscious in my own mind that you shouldn't do any job, really. This is my personal view.
00:17:53
Speaker
I think once you get to, even in a senior role, maybe five years is about as long as I think you really are adding the value and getting the enjoyment yourself. So I had that role very clearly. And I say that's, you know, when I retired last year, I was four and a half years in the in the role at Hyundai. I always thought that the latest I would do it to be this year, you know, because i think I think it's good for the individual and I think it's good for the organization to have change. And I think it's good that Hyundai now has someone else running the business Europe who will have a different approach than I had.
00:18:28
Speaker
And that's good for the organization as well. And it's sometimes probably brave to say, you know, I've got a ah lifetime in this job, but it is important. So i the advice I give to people is, you know,
00:18:42
Speaker
think about opportunities that may not seem like the natural one, but it gives you a chance to try something new, to move into ah maybe a part of the the company that may not be seen as the most you know attractive or exciting, but you'll get new experiences, you'll learn new things, you broaden your own you know knowledge, and that's good for the organization and it's absolutely good for the individual. So I say to people, come out your comfort the zone, be prepared to try something different.
00:19:10
Speaker
Excellent. I've been curious to talk to you about setting goals and targets just while we're on this, you know, the subject of changing and and ah and achieving kind of new things, because anyone looking at your career can see that you've obviously been been driven enough to even have held a fraction of the roles you have. You talked about sort of MD at Gear UK, and then you've gone on to um you know, become the presidency of Hyundai Motors Europe, which you know, incredible achievements and testament to your kind of your successes and your approach.
00:19:42
Speaker
But I wanted to go a level deeper and just gain an understanding of how you kind of frame your your own development. So can you talk me through your process of, you know, how you set your own kind of goals and targets and do you have a particular approach to this?
Approach to Personal and Organizational Goals
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, i interestingly enough, again, it's something I've told people over the years, to be careful not to become tied to your own personal goals. So I ah found myself, I guess, ultimately having the career I did just by the fact I was prepared to take on new roles and new challenges and and move, not just in the UK, but in Europe and globally.
00:20:22
Speaker
But I never, quite honestly recently, me and people said to me, you sure? I said, I never sat down and said, you know, within the next five years, I need to achieve this. Or by the age of 40, I want to be doing this.
00:20:33
Speaker
it it I don't want to say it was a career by accident, because it certainly wasn't that. But it was it was just one a case of cases saying, look, let's think about what the next role would be that I would enjoy, that I think would have, you know, ah ah ah a string to my bow. how How do I keep making myself a better person for this industry and for this for this company and for this industry? So I didn't set any sort of personal career goals, so to speak.
00:21:01
Speaker
I guess it's human nature, maybe for all of us, be a bit competitive. So if positions, I remember was the case Toyota, if a position became... and it was the next level up, there'd be a few of us would be saying, are you going to go for that? Yeah, well, I might go for it. so there's And there's that competitiveness. And I do remember there was one job. I went for this. I can't remember what it was now, and probably just as well.
00:21:21
Speaker
And I went for it, but I didn't really want it. But i i I was disappointed when I didn't get it because it was almost like I've gone for it and I didn't get it. So there's that competitive aspect. But I can't say I ever created, you know, career or personal goals other than to try and just do the best I could in any job I was in because I knew it would then be recognized and would give opportunities.
00:21:46
Speaker
It's very different from the way I approach my job when I, I guess the first time I really did it in my Kia days as an MD, you know, you feel you are personally responsible for really setting the the targets and the goals for the organization. And that's something I am very strong on And it's something that, to be honest, surprisingly didn't exist in many of the roles I went to. So I would always, you know, take, you've got to be realistic. It could take three months, six months, sometimes a bit longer. You have to understand the company.
00:22:15
Speaker
but I would always then create the vision, and mission vision mission, and the strategy, and and a roadmap. So we say, look, where do we want to be in the next five years or the next sometimes 10 years? But really five-year windows always for me were the thing. And actually then not only have a ah goal for the company, but actually lay down the plan of how you're going to get there. Because I say everyone can say,
00:22:40
Speaker
For example, when I went to Kia, I think Kia was selling 35,000 cars a year. And we said, our goal is to sell 100,000 cars. And we actually didn't put a, I was keen not to put a window, but in my own mind, it was always five years. But I said to the team, that's not the goal. you know That's a goal. It's fine to say 100,000 cars, but now we've got to build a strategy and the plan and have a roadmap and look all the different elements that we're going to need to get there.
00:23:06
Speaker
And that's the most important thing, I think, you know, not just having an aspiration, but having a clear plan of how you're going to deliver it. i say so I say to people, it's a bit like when you get in a car, if you don't know where you're going, you know, you have to put something in the sat-nav. You have to say, this is where I'm going to get to. And then you make your plan for how you'll get there.
00:23:25
Speaker
And that was something that I... you know really enjoyed doing, which surprised me because i't I'd always thought that I was more of a day-to-day operational person, firefighting, because I came from retail. But I really enjoyed, learned to enjoy probably over the last 15 years or so, this need to be more strategic and to plan things and to think, you know what resources do we need? How are we going to manage this? Who else needs to play a part?
00:23:51
Speaker
and build something that you could then measure yourself against or measure the organization against. And I've said the teams I work with all enjoyed that process as well. Yeah.
00:24:02
Speaker
So you say about, um I think it's interesting your point about not you know tying yourself to some goals too rigidly because ah you do feel like sometimes you have to set these kind of ambitious targets for, at least in my own experience, and i've I've set those kind of five-year, 10-year goals. and And to be honest, it,
00:24:21
Speaker
It puts an enormous amount of pressure on you that I just think can actually be a bit detrimental rather than help you grow. Because if you're not kind of within the realms of what you wanted to achieve by a certain timeframe, you can feel like you're failing a lot of the time and it isn't necessarily the case.
Learning from Failure and Adjusting Strategies
00:24:37
Speaker
uh it just means that you know perhaps you've taken a slightly different route um you know there's there's more than sort of one way to skin account as they say but um yeah i think that's some of the some of the detrimental effects of maybe tying yourself too rigidly to a to a development it is and i say i i don't think it was it wasn't say it wasn't conscious or effort either way to do it or not to do it but but i do agree with you i had one colleague someone I did promote within 12 days, and he lasted, I say he lasted, he was a great guy. I promoted him, and about six months later, he came and resigned and was going to the car brand. And I said, you're only six months into this job. He said, yeah, but this this this is a new opportunity. It's more senior, and if and I need to take this if I'm going to reach my goal to be
00:25:23
Speaker
you know, managing director by the age of 45 or somewhere, ever it was at the time. And I said, I think that's a mistake. It can actually, you've got to be careful. It can sometimes force you into, want to say the wrong decision because the guy's gone on and had a good career in in the in the business. But For me, that was a mistake. You know, I would have learned so much more by doing the role I promoted into for another two, three years and then move on. So I think you have to be careful that you don't sort of get your decision making isn't driven by the goal. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's bad to have goals and ambition and vision. That's that's good. And your comment about failure, I guess it's becoming more and more a buzz now. And it was a key thing for me, particularly working for a Korean company who were very ambitious.
00:26:08
Speaker
And of course, no one likes failure, but I would get this message across and i' I'd stand up in our big town halls or on video links to all our stuff across Europe. And I would say, and I've said it very openly, it's all right to fail sometimes. You know, we're trying things. You know, we've got to keep trying. We're trying new things that won't all work. The key thing, obviously, is first of all, to do everything to avoid failure.
00:26:31
Speaker
But if it does fail, react quickly to it to correct it. So, you know, it I read this now more and more, and I'm so pleased to see it. People say, you know, don't be afraid of failure, you know, because one way of not failing is just not to try things, of course.
00:26:46
Speaker
So that that word failure is actually a question I had ah for a bit later on in the conversation. But umm I'm curious to know then, that that word failure can mean lots of different things to different people. um How do you frame failure?
00:27:00
Speaker
I guess it's it's when it doesn't achieve. For me, it was when it didn't, you know, say I like to, when we, were anything we did, any sort decision we made, particularly the strategic ones, we're always with a goal in mind.
00:27:14
Speaker
And if you didn't achieve that, then ultimately, you know, it depends how close you are to it. of course, that that for me was a failure because it meant, you know, we we thought this was going to deliver a certain result and it didn't.
00:27:26
Speaker
But i would I would always be keen to say, but that doesn't mean that we were wrong to do what we did because we'll have learned something from it. And, you know, you just have to, using the expression I got in the States, pivot, you know, you have to just tweak it or do something different. So, okay, let's let's learn from why it didn't work. Now, to be honest, there were some things, particularly in the last few years, there was a lot of change going on in the automotive business.
00:27:51
Speaker
We tried some things that just didn't work. I mean, they just, they they did literally fail. It it didn't get anything like decided as well. And then you almost, well, to be honest, some of these things we sort of backtracked on altogether and said, okay, we tried it. It didn't work, but let's not be too, you know, we we we can't be too big to say, you know, we're going to revert to where we were before. Sometimes you try things and they don't work.
00:28:13
Speaker
Um, and, and I think that's the thing not to sort of, you know, hang your head in shame with it, but say, look, at least we tried, you know, we did it for the right reason. It hasn't worked.
00:28:24
Speaker
So we would try something else. Yeah. I mean, you, you've had a, you know, you talked about being MD and president and you're, you actually steering the ship, so to speak of, uh, you know, the successes of the company.
Handling Industry Pressures
00:28:39
Speaker
When it gets to things that maybe didn't work as well as you'd intended them to, you know, or hoped for. Ultimately, you do have a positive outlook. I can see that's very apparent with the way you talk and and the way you're talking about the businesses you're in as well. But at some point, there's got to be a time where you start to think about a reflection on yourself as well. Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:02
Speaker
you know, you're you're in these increasingly more high-powered positions, lots of stress, lots of responsibility, brand new cultures, brand new environments, you know, completely different um environments from where you are in the UK and across the whole European industry as well.
00:29:18
Speaker
yeah how do You know, how do you make sure that that that doesn't sort of, you don't take that personally and you treat it more as a... You know, great question, Reece, because it is true. I mean, we're all we're all human and we all...
00:29:31
Speaker
want people to look at what we're doing and say, oh, they're doing a good job. And ah so, um again, I think I was very fortunate. I tended to have that, you know, ah whether it was colleagues or even, you know, media saying, you know, doing a great job there, you know, whichever brand it was.
00:29:48
Speaker
But it doesn't always happen like that. And to to be honest, you know, the last couple of years have been tough in the automotive industry because, There were so many disruptions really coming out from COVID, from supply crisis, and then going into this EV switch. So we had a ah really, really successful time um coming out twenty two twenty three ah back half of were tough because the industry was tough.
00:30:15
Speaker
And when we, you know, as a brand, we'd grown so quickly. We were gaining market share against established brands. And yeah that's tough to do, ah to to sustain it. So last year was was a tough year for us. and And you're right. It's this thing where you... you You don't want to let people down, not only your colleagues, but, you know, I'm very fortunate to say I consider I have a close relationship with the chairman of Hyundai Motor Group, who is basically the third generation of the family. And, you know, I would i would meet him, you know, fairly regularly. And and know I would hate to think that I was...
00:30:52
Speaker
letting him down by, you know, not continuing this success that, you know, I'd had with the group for 15 years. So yeah you have to be, you know, sort of not too brutal on yourself. You have to understand, again, why if things aren't going as well as you would like them to go, why is that? And providing, I say to everyone, providing you can say we're doing everything. You know, we're not doing anything wrong, you know.
00:31:20
Speaker
There's sometimes external factors that can influence the overall performance. And providing you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, I you know i believe I'm still taking all the right actions and we're doing all the right things, then then it's very difficult to to do anything else because sometimes things just don't go the way you want them to go.
00:31:40
Speaker
We don't operate in a vacuum. And I say that's particularly you know clear in a in ah in such a competitive industry as the automotive market, the number of car brands there are now competing in the market. I say, with I know yeah it's not about the industry so much, but i did a I had to go and talk to a group of journalists probably about 20 years ago in the UK.
00:32:02
Speaker
And I was asked even then to talk about how is the market the industry different from the one you entered in 1983, 84. And I remember looking at the stats and and I wish I could remember it now, but it was something like, you know,
00:32:19
Speaker
80% of the sales in the UK car market at that time were made up by 10 brands. And the top three brands took about 50% of the market, Ford, Vauxhall, Rover. And at the time, this is 20 years ago, said, now look how many brands you need to count for the top 80%. It's like 25 brands. And...
00:32:36
Speaker
it's like twenty five brands and Obviously, you had did all the German brands getting a lot stronger during that period. But of course, now, I'm sure you know exactly what's happened, the Chinese brands. Yeah.
00:32:47
Speaker
And particularly because of the EV ah trend, now the market is so competitive. So ah that for me was always a thing to say, look, you know it for a brand to keep growing every year is almost impossible.
00:33:04
Speaker
Even the strongest European brands, VW had a... Tough few years. They're coming back. They've done better the last two years. But you just can't keep growing. So you have to sometimes look at that and say, okay, I'd love to be you know this golden Midas touch and say, every year we grow. We keep growing. It's not realistic to expect that. Even the best brands will have years where sometimes, and of course, it's product cycle.
00:33:29
Speaker
You know, if your if your product cycle isn't right, your best-selling model is mid-life cycle, it's very difficult to keep, you know, going when someone else brings out a brand new product in a hot segment where you're no longer the new
Consistent Brand Identity Across Markets
00:33:42
Speaker
kid on the block. So you do in in in the business, you'll have this, you know, it's a cyclical.
00:33:48
Speaker
So the thing is not to beat yourself up and say, am I still doing the things that I think are the other the right things? Are we still reacting to the market? ah You know, ah Are we correcting? Are we looking for where things might be around and taking action? And if you're doing that, then I think you you can live with yourself rather than having those sleepless nights of of worry about, oh, it's not going as well as I'd like it to. Because it just doesn't always go the way you want it to.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, there was a you you mentioned the word belief in there and I think that that was quite a nice ah point to to draw upon because this this if the data is telling you you're wrong or the data is telling you that you know that we're we're in a period of decline and maybe the things that we've tried haven't necessarily worked, but you still you mentioned about still we're still trying new things, you know trying to better ourselves and trying to push the business forward.
00:34:41
Speaker
you You mentioned the word belief. That sounds like a very key part of what you just said. um Yes. That's why you could kind of keep going. Do you think it's yeah that's the most important thing to have is belief?
00:34:53
Speaker
i Yeah. mean, I think yeah there are times you have to have the courage of conviction as well to say, look, we know we're on a path. We've created this strategy. Obviously, you adapt it. We would always, every year, even when we had a five-year strategy, it was rolling. So every year, you're looking to see what what needs to adapt, what needs to change.
00:35:11
Speaker
but i But I think, you know, I actually got quoted. It stopped with me for a while from two years ago where Tesla reduced all their pricing. And I was interviewed, I think, by Automotive News Europe. And I said, we're not going to knee-jerk to what Tesla do.
00:35:25
Speaker
And that became everywhere I was quoted. It's about we're not going to knee-jerk. But it's true of anything. You know, we have a strategy. you know And if you knee-jerk, react to everyone else's actions, you're not true to your own strategy. So yeah what you believe in and what you stand for, and it's something, you know, if ah if I heard my older me talk 40 years ago, I'd be talking about brand and, you know, brand promises and, ah you know, being true to the brand. I'd have thought, who is this guy? Because i I wouldn't recognize it. But I realized, and I think,
00:36:00
Speaker
you know it It was something I i sort of ah got the experience through my time in you know European roles, particularly, the importance of having a brand that has an identity. And that identity really has to be consistent, not only in every way you talk about the brand, but in every market.
00:36:17
Speaker
And that's challenging in Europe, where obviously the German market, as you can imagine, is much tougher than the, let's say, the Norwegian market, because the Norwegian market doesn't have any domestic brands, the German market does. So you you have to sort of adapt a little bit your position in the market, but you can't change your brand identity. The brand has to stand for something and you have to remain true to that. And that's to say the belief of who the brand is, the way the brand behaves is what's most important. Yeah. were talking about the rise of of the Chinese EVs. And, you know, when I was a kid, I used to be able to be able to identify what cars were on the road by their headlight. I even thought so good. I was, you know, I could tell by the headlights.
00:37:02
Speaker
yeah You know, now there's so many brands on the road. i've I've literally no idea. First time I've ever seen, you know, this. yeah I saw one the other day, an XPeng. Never seen it before my life. Oh, that's another one that's just popped up.
00:37:14
Speaker
um But yeah, the brand identity thing is interesting because I think that's something that Kia and Hyundai did very well. Yes. Kia obviously had seven-year warranty and that was like when that first came out, that was it unheard of at the time. It was, you know, people couldn't believe how how long the the warranty was. And then with Hyundai, the car's like the Ioniq 5. That was yeah that that to me is a very cool EV because... Absolutely. And that's that really, yeah, it's something that really, I really liked about the brand because they were doing something a little bit different. Whereas the thing that I don't really enjoy so much now about the car industry is everything is downstream of someone's design. You know, Porsche came in with like the light bar, um yeah or at least I think it was Porsche that that sort of did it. And then every suddenly every car had a light bar on the back. You know, we've got these, he
00:38:08
Speaker
not to my taste now, but the the the glow, you know, the light up badges now. Yeah, yeah. Who who did tooth thought that was a good idea beats me. But um there was nothing really new coming out. And and you could, even Honda, I saw there was one of their SUVs came out the other, you know, a couple of years ago. And it looked like, you know, it looked like you'd taken a Volvo XC90 and a BMW and kind of smushed it together. And I couldn't quite tell what it was what it was trying to be. Whereas, you know,
00:38:36
Speaker
The IONIQ 5, for example, that that was completely new. It was its own car in its own right. It didn't really echo anything I'd ever seen before. And that's something that I really liked about the brand and that they were trying to do something different and push the boat out.
00:38:50
Speaker
Do you know, it's a very strong ah sort of ethic they have that obviously I would be over for the design reviews nearly every month towards the end and You would look at products like, I mean, the IONIQ sort of sub-brand, IONIQ 5, IONIQ 6, now IONIQ 9.
00:39:07
Speaker
People tend to say there's no similarity. I mean, the IONIQ 5, IONIQ 6, you know, don't necessarily look like they're the same family. But there are certain... elements, you know, that are consistent. But the the view always of the design team was, you know, we don't have to have like a rush and doll effect of of products.
Hyundai's Design Philosophy
00:39:26
Speaker
They refer to it as the chess set. So the idea is the base has to be a base that's the same. But, you know, above that, you you shouldn't be constrained by trying to make every car look as though it's the same, just a smaller version or a bigger version of the same thing. So it gets, and that to be honest, from a designer's point view is fantastic because it gives the designers the freedom
00:39:46
Speaker
to to be more creative, more innovative. So i think it's something that Hyundai has done particularly well and Kia does well too, but Hyundai particularly well that, you know, each vehicle, yes, it probably you need to know how to look for the family likeness, but the reality is there is a consistency within it, but it doesn't mean that the car has to look like a bigger version or a smaller version of something else.
00:40:12
Speaker
They have their own identity. Yeah. I saw the, uh, the drift cars. There was a, the, the ironing five, the ironing six at Goodwood this year. They did a, a drift car version. Um, again, pretty, pretty crazy.
00:40:26
Speaker
love it. There was a resto. There was a render. I thought don't know if it was ever a concept car, if it was ever planned for production. The, uh, it was like a, the N vision 74. So it was the, the yes, yes. I mean, yeah.
00:40:39
Speaker
that You never know, something could still come from that. Yeah. I mean, that so that was very, very cool. Again, something new and and it kind of, I think ah i think Toyota brought out a, or they had ah an image of the century, but they'd kind of done a bit of a restome mod for that as well. Like that kind of thing I think would be really popular because it, it, it,
00:41:01
Speaker
best of both for you know it yeah one is It's being brave. i mean, it's it's a tough it's a tough market, obviously, because, you know, development costs, engineering, ko well, project costs, huge. So bringing any car to market is, you know, it's a phenomenally expensive exercise.
00:41:19
Speaker
And you you have to try and get the economics it right, obviously. But it's again where Hyundai has been very brave because a product, obviously you talk about IONIQ 5, the IONIQ 5N, and now there's an IONIQ 6N launched this year.
00:41:32
Speaker
They are incredible pieces of engineering. I mean, they are supremely sophisticated vehicles. I mean, the the technology in them is phenomenal. And and to be honest, it you know almost overly engineered, but it was that that this passion of wanting to do that to create not only an environmentally friendly car, but one that would be just perfect.
00:41:56
Speaker
as a screen to drive and and the cars are amazing i we couldn't use it because of trading standards or what do you call it but it's allowed to you can't say zero emissions because people say well there's tyre emissions rubber but I love the I tried to use the phrase of zero emission 100% emotion Because, you know, driving an IONIQ 5N, the first time I drove it in Korea a couple of years ago, obviously knew it was an electric car. But when I got out, I said to the engineers, the best testament I can give you is if I didn't know it was an electric car, I would think I'd just got out gasoline car. Yeah. Because it's got all the noises, the accentuators, and all the, it has this like hesitant, the gear shift. It's built into the the way the car responds. And it's it's just, a you know, an absolute blast to drive those cars, particularly on a track.
00:42:44
Speaker
yeah And to drift them. I got to drift it as well. Got to drift. I haven't i haven't actually driven any. I haven't actually driven an electric car yet. I ah had friends who had like Teslas and things like that. and And he did floor it in the sport mode. And that was insane levels and um of performance.
00:43:01
Speaker
And you've seen what McMurtry are doing with their... Have you seen the sort of fan car that they've got? Yeah, that's brilliant. I love seeing innovation like that. And I think it's... I don't want to see that
Electrification and Driving Enjoyment
00:43:12
Speaker
die off. And that's, I think a concern for a lot of petrol heads, opshe car lovers is that they immediately attribute EV to the the dying off of something, ah anything good, but I don't necessarily think it needs to be that extreme. No, it doesn't. And the reality is, I mean, ah you know, we we are moving inevitably to electrification. And this is something we were always keen to try and say, ah having an electric car doesn't mean that driving has to be boring. I mean, we anyone who likes driving cars enjoys the sometimes that sensation of the noise, or even if you like a stick shift, you know, themd i love to drive a manual car still.
00:43:48
Speaker
But you can still have fun driving EVs. and And as I said, some products more than those, of course. ah But yeah, it's it's a transition that we're going to have to go through. so Yeah.
00:44:01
Speaker
Embrace it or, or, you know get off. I'm afraid so. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Just going back to your, your roles then. Um, I believe you're the first, you know European or non-Korean native to have held the role of president CEO of Hindemus
Success Through Inclusive Leadership
00:44:16
Speaker
Europe. Obviously see that's, you know, once a lifetime, huge achievement. Um,
00:44:22
Speaker
This is going to sound a bit job interviewing now, so i apologize, but if if you could pick maybe any three words that would epitomize why you were the right person for that role, what do you think they would be?
00:44:37
Speaker
Oh, three words. is's it it
00:44:42
Speaker
I would say, is it a word or is it several words? ah Results, certainly. for In terms of getting the job in Europe, what I'd done elsewhere in the group was clearly recognized by the powers that be. So my previous results, I think, was was one.
00:45:04
Speaker
Globalization. That's interesting one because it's not so much about me, but it is a reason why i know, again, if you take our chairman, ah belief that, you know, to be a really successful company, you need to be a global company, not...
00:45:21
Speaker
a Korean company working in all the different markets. So there was a, I think, ah a desire from the top to to have global leaders rather than necessarily, sure it needs to be the best person, obviously. You don't you don't appoint someone just because they're a a different race, whatever. But i there was clearly a ah desire to to have ah local management, so European management in ah in a European region. So I... that That was one of one of the reasons. I think another one is, i don't want to say personality is not the right word, but do you you know I'm trying to think how I would express it. It's about who you are. And i not blame my own trumpet, I'd built up a very strong reputation within the group for the way I went about doing things.
00:46:13
Speaker
you know um And i think, That's not just the results. The results are one thing. you know had Had I gone about it certain way and the results weren't good, I don't think I'd have got the job. But I had a certain style of...
00:46:27
Speaker
of the way I ran a company. You know, I am not, I've never been a ah table banger, ah what I would almost call like the old autocratic underwear. When I first entered the automotive industry, there were a lot of bullies who were the bosses. Yeah. I'm not with shaker and a streamer. Yeah. i mean, people know if I'm not happy. I mean, if if things aren't going right, no one's in any doubt that we, you know,
00:46:53
Speaker
I'm telling them that we have to correct things, but I've always been, at you know, the way I put it, I had a philosophy for myself early on, which was sort of a reworking of a philosophy of my, not my first boss, but my boss, when I was a maidenhead in Ford, he had the, he always say to me, treat others as you would like to be treated yourself.
00:47:15
Speaker
And I sort of evolved that, i guess, a little bit to sort of say, I want people to perform for me as a leader because they want to, not because they have to, because they know they're going to get their ass kicked.
00:47:28
Speaker
You know, the the the the positive energy from delivering for someone that you respect is So maybe that's maybe that's the word, respect, rather than personality. I had respect you know from from the leaders all the way through the organization. I think that's something that i'm I'm proud of because it meant I could be who I am as a person and still achieve results.
00:47:55
Speaker
So yeah, respect, results, and the fact that there was ah a desire from the top to to have this globalization, not not be a Korean company in each market.
00:48:07
Speaker
is It's incredibly interesting that you say that because as someone who's, you know, a bit further down the, well, quite a way down the ladder compared to where you were, of course, um it it amazes me how you still see in leadership today or maybe you can't even call it leadership or people in those positions where, know,
00:48:25
Speaker
they are bullies and they do take this kind of real autocratic approach. now I'm always of the opinion that if I respect you as a, as a manager and your leadership, you know, I, you know, I, it makes the, the tough news, know,
00:48:40
Speaker
absolutely fine. i don't I don't need to be spoon fed. I don't need to be coddled. However, ah do like to have a level of respect shown to me as well as, you know, it goes two ways, right? And always think that if you have someone who is respectable and who respects you,
00:48:59
Speaker
I always think that you're you're always willing to go the extra mile and and definitely you know do that extra bit of work, work those extra few hours, whatever it may be. And ultimately, I think that would pay off.
00:49:10
Speaker
But it amazes me how that doesn't that really isn't a common thing you see. and No, you're right. i and And I can i can share you know that frustrate because i so I still would see it. and I mean, in certain parts of our organization, it it felt as though we weren't quite making those transitions. But it was something that I was always keen to do to say, and I'll say,
00:49:31
Speaker
If I'd recorded all my town hall videos for everyone, often they were about how we are as a company, we're going to perform. We talk about results, but it was more about who do we want to be as a company, as as an employer brand, as well as a consumer brand. So it was always important to me that people should feel respected. And and and yeah and i also, you know, this thing, yeah and again, it's it's sometimes overplayed. People talk about empowerment.
00:49:54
Speaker
you know I talked about it regularly and and would say to people, you know we are going to trust you. We are going to empower you. It doesn't mean that you just go off and do whatever you want. we had We have governance. We have boundaries. Yes, we have some rules, but we try and make those boundaries as broad as we can so you work within them. And you all know you all know the vision. You've all got it printed. You understand what it is.
00:50:18
Speaker
And if what you're doing is going to contribute and help to that, you know we give you as much freedom to do it the best way you can. So I tried not to be one these bosses, certainly with all my vice presidents. ah ah I'm sure they would recognize this.
00:50:33
Speaker
We would agree the strategy and the direction and we'd talk about how we get there, but I wasn't onto them every day. i you ah the way I worked, had a ah a daily meeting. So on a Monday, I'd meet with one function, Tuesday, another. So we'd have a touch base every week.
00:50:49
Speaker
And we'd just go through the key tasks, the key priorities. But it was just so they could tell me what how they were getting on, what was happening. And they set the agenda. I never set the agenda for those meetings. I'd say, you come and tell me, you know, what the big projects? What are you working on? Of course, if they miss one out, I'd say, well, hang on, I'd like to know about this. But it's about saying you're responsible. You're accountable as well for this. You know, it's not just me.
00:51:15
Speaker
And again, I don't want to say because I'm sure lots of people say these things, but it's it's' something I really believed. I said, we are a leadership team. you know We're in this together. So i'd I'd say, and it's not always easy for everyone, but if we're sat in a meeting, I would even some say to the marketing guy, what's your opinion about the sales on this? I said, look, don't don't be afraid to touch each other's business. that we're We're a leadership team. So we should be able to say to each other,
00:51:43
Speaker
what we think, you know, and we should all be able to work together
Empowering Teams and Innovating
00:51:46
Speaker
to improve things. So if someone from one function was talking about another one, so would don't feel threatened by this or don't feel they're attacking you. this is This should be constructive criticism. So we all discuss what's happening in the business. We all need to know and we all need to care what's happening across the whole business. Not just, don't be blinkered to your own function. Think about the others.
00:52:09
Speaker
It's um empowerment, I think, is absolutely what, yeah. Yeah. You know, being able to trust, you know, build trust with your team and and for them to take it away and know that you even trusted them to deliver and, you know, to actually go off and do the right thing. um I think, yeah, I think that's hugely undervalued. It is a virtuous cycle, isn't it? You know, if if people see there's the trust, you know, they then...
00:52:36
Speaker
act on that in the right way, hopefully. I mean, again, you have to keep having the checks. It doesn't mean you're sort of hands off and say, well, whatever, but you you you have to, I am believer in you have to trust people.
00:52:49
Speaker
most Most people want to do the best job they can. There's and there's not many of are swinging that most people are there because they want to add value. yeah And yeah the best way to get to add value is to give them the the the the the most amount of freedom you can.
00:53:02
Speaker
to do that yeah Do you think, or once from the subject of leadership, do you think that everything a leader needs can be learned or do you think there are certain innate qualities that these roles demand that kind of exist outside the realms of learning?
00:53:18
Speaker
Yeah, good question. I i think, ah I mean, you can learn lots of things and and I'm sure people, you know, there's lots of books, like leadership books. Yeah. I think that personality is always a little bit in there. I think, you know, we are to a degree the type of people we are. And, you know, let's be honest, there's times where I say, you know, my style was not to be a shouter and a you know, an ogre, but sometimes you think, well, should i maybe if I'd been a bit tougher on that, we may have done a better, that's not me. So you say, I like i can't change the person I am. i i am. umm So, you know, this is how I'm going to be a leader. This is how I'm going to and i manage it. So i think, yes, of course, you you you can learn, you can, and you can improve. And it's the whole thing, isn't it? If you can recognize what your default might be, you have some way of trying to adjust them. But
00:54:12
Speaker
So yes, you can learn lots, but I think there's a lot of inbuilt. Your own personality determines the sort of leader you are to a large degree, I think. Yeah, it's really interesting. I, um...
00:54:26
Speaker
A lot of these products, like these leadership books, these, you know, the same with productivity, but all these kind of self-help books, they and they do have limitations in that a lot of ah lost them are based on someone's, you know, anecdotal experiences. So one person's experience, your your experience,
00:54:45
Speaker
is not going to correlate to what I'm doing at the moment or maybe the vast majority of listeners, they're not in the position that you were in. they They didn't have the experience that you were in before. So I think with a lot of these things, you need to take it with a You do need to take it with a pinch of salt, of course. um Well, you do, because it's like I said before, and no one's working in a vacuum.
00:55:03
Speaker
you know there There are so many external factors that influence every different person, every different organization, every different industry or you know organization.
00:55:16
Speaker
you So it's not there's one right answer. you know And even, and actually, i Just as I say, not one right answer. It reminds me of my Toyota days. I had a really good guy running one of our regions when I was operations director. Really, really good guy.
00:55:31
Speaker
But he tended to be a bit one-dimensional in the way he managed people. And i think you actually used the phrase earlier. I remember sitting once, says ah's there's more than one way to skin a cat. you know yeah You do have to sometimes think, I need to approach this differently. Because...
00:55:46
Speaker
though though though some people just have that one way of dealing with a an issue and I say you can't do that you you have to find ways and do you know the the The situation where I found that most important was when I first joined IKEA.
00:56:02
Speaker
And I worked for a number of different presidents before I was a president myself in UK, Europe, US, all different, ah all Korean, because obviously, as you said, I was the first non-Korean president.
00:56:15
Speaker
All good people, but all very, very different. And I realized that I had to adapt my, I was either an MD or a chief operating officer at the time, And I would have to change my way a little bit to adapt to them because I knew i wasn't going to change them. I mean, the so so you do sometimes have to, you have to remain true to your own beliefs and values, but you have to just find a way of sometimes navigating your way through these situations.
Remaining Calm Under Pressure
00:56:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:44
Speaker
Having that level of introspection to be able to adapt to this, Yeah, I'm just going to completely go against what I just said about, you know, sometimes it's having these experiences are not applicable to your life. But if you if you could credit one maybe skill to your career successes and the challenges and how you've navigated them, um is there any standout skills that you think have been really instrumental in your success? Do you know, i um i haven't thought about it, but all I'm thinking as you ask that question is, ah I know over the last few years particularly, and even when I when i left and obviously had many, many very nice messages and you know compliments. And I think one of the things that sort of dawned on me almost as I was leaving, the thing that kept coming across is people said,
00:57:39
Speaker
and some people that I really respect, some very senior people, not only within companies work with, but in the industry, would say, you always stayed calm and you always seemed to have a smile on your face. ah However bad the situation was or however difficult it was, you didn't ever let it show. And it's funny, ah again, it's it's just me as a person. and And that's so reassuring to so many people, particularly the teams that you work with.
00:58:08
Speaker
Because if as the leader, you know you get all flustered and panicked and you know angry, and but people think, oh, this isn't good. yeah and in a about that They don't like to see that you're almost out of control. It's reassuring to people when they see that you say, okay, this isn't where we want it to be, but let's...
00:58:31
Speaker
let's keep going. Let's find what, so I think that calmness, I would almost say, and positivity was probably the thing that in hindsight, I didn't raise it at the time, but when I got all these nice comments and, and I thought about it, you know, and I've had more time to think about it, I guess now than I've had for a long time, you say, okay, that might have been one of my best strengths. The fact that I didn't get flustered.
00:58:54
Speaker
Yeah. That was really interesting. So it's like, uh,
00:59:01
Speaker
enhanced pragmatism where you're just kind of taking everything at, you know, you get everything you can move forward from every situation and not just kind of hitting a dead spot. You're always looking for the... yeah People don't want to see panic. I mean, and I guess that's the thing again, comes with this thing about knee-jerk. Yes, you have to you have to adapt, you have to change, you have to find ways of solving problems.
00:59:24
Speaker
But, you know, if you if you go into a fluster or a panic or start throwing things around, people people don't feel easy with that. They think, oh, you know, this isn't this isn't the sort of leaner we want. I think that's, you know, doesn't mean you can't show some emotion. I mean, that's fine. But, you know, keep keep keeping control, I think, is is an important aspect for a leader.
00:59:46
Speaker
Yeah. It's, it's that kind of, and it like, uh, I hate using this term energy because, but it is that kind of people can, can feel the mood. They can sense what's going on and it it does permeate through, you know, yeah business, you know, environments that you're in. If someone's, you know, if everyone's down and did it is very, very hard to be the outlier. That's always the one who's kind of positive and keep you going. So, Yes, to have that from the top down is, um you know, yeah, I can see how that was so beneficial for the company.
01:00:17
Speaker
So my final my final question is a little bit on that and relating to sort of, you know, you you're in these roles with elevated levels of stress and responsibility.
Managing Work-Life Balance
01:00:31
Speaker
It's always that pull or that desire to you know work that extra day or work those extra hours. I just want to understand how you managed to balance sustaining yourself and being a high performing individual.
01:00:48
Speaker
What that looked like for you? Do you know, something, again, I found ah relatively easy would be almost making it sound as though I i didn't care. but that of've even Even in the most challenging times, I would be able to...
01:01:10
Speaker
let things rest at a certain point. Because, again, it comes back to that sort of understanding that I can't i can't change everything. you know Worrying about something. I'm very fortunate that I'm not the sort of person who worries. I'm not a worrier. And ah you know when you know people who are, you say them, don't worry, this is the worst thing you can say to me. So I feel i feel very fortunate that I'm not the sort of person who genuinely worries.
01:01:35
Speaker
um So i even... had idea I wish I could give some sort of example of crisis that we faced, but there were plenty of them. But i would I would obviously be always thinking about things for as long as I felt that it was adding some sort of value and not creating mental stress. So, for example, i you know if if I got home at the weekend then i and I tried so hard to protect weekends always, didn't matter what job I did, weekends were really for the for the family.
01:02:08
Speaker
It wasn't always possible had to work some weekends, particularly in the us weekends don't really exist necessarily. and But i was I always was very good at saying, okay, this is now, I've left the office.
01:02:23
Speaker
<unk> I'm leaving behind. What isn't done now is not going to get done by me worrying about it or spending the whole weekend or the whole night fretting. Don't get me wrong, rest that I mean, there were sleepless nights. Some things are really bad and you can't get them out of your mind. But generally, i was able to...
01:02:42
Speaker
I guess just tell myself it's not helping to bring these things home and to worry about them because I can't change them. So I would say generally I was able to decompartmentalize and say, right, I'm now in my time or my family time it It slightly contradicts you that, of course, is the thing where I say, I um i remember once in my Toyota days, I left the office on a Friday night. We're going on holiday to France and I'd work late. I was trying to get things done and I got home, went to bed, got the next morning, went to pick up my car keys and my phone off the console table.
01:03:18
Speaker
Where's my phone? And Reyes, I left it in the office. So we had to drive via the office so I could get my phone because I couldn't be on holiday and not be checking my my phone, my emails. But I've...
01:03:33
Speaker
the The way I would do that, I would look at the phone, and I would deal with an email, and if it was a problem, I would want to deal with it. I'd get on, I'd send an email back, I'd make a phone call, but then I could switch off. The worst thing would be not knowing that there was a problem. So I would always rather know of what's happening. And even um and my wife was, i think she struggled initially, but she was great on all the hard issues. She would say to me, oh, you've you've been checking your phone, have you? said, yeah, I just have to go and check it. I dealt with a few things.
01:04:03
Speaker
But that was the best way for me to be able to manage not being in the business when it was a a holiday or a long weekend or whatever.
01:04:14
Speaker
But for the night times and for the weekends generally, I was able to decompart-lentalize and say, this is now this isn't work anymore. I'm not at work.
01:04:28
Speaker
yeah Not easy, but I could do it pretty well. No, it sounds like this, ah this idea of the, they call it the locus of control. So you can control the controllables and then the, some things are going to be outside the realms of your ah ability to control them. So there's no point worrying about them.
01:04:45
Speaker
And that is exactly, I, I, tell our kids or tell them, say, don't, you know, I'm not going to worry about the things that I can't control. If I can't change it, it's pointless. It's it's just burning up so much wasted energy. that you So try that it's not always possible. We we do. and And in business, and to care for your response for business, there are times when you fret or worry, and I could wake up in the middle of the night thinking, oh God. But generally, I was able to say, look, if I can't change it if I'm not going to fix it now, just let it lie.
01:05:16
Speaker
We'll tackle it to- tomorrow. Awesome. Michael Cole, thank you very much indeed. it's It's been an absolute privilege to have you on. So thank you very much for your time and your and your wisdom and your insights. um and i'm sure really yeah I'm sure the listeners are going to get loads from this. So thank you again. Okay.
01:05:33
Speaker
No, it's great. It's been great to talk to you and hopefully we'll catch up with you somewhere sometime soon. Absolutely.