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Cool Careers in Accounting Ep. 18 - At the Intersection of Expertise and Creativity with Kelly Richmond Pope
264 Plays7 days ago
Kelly Pope is an inspiration in the accounting profession. A trailblazer in the field of accounting and beyond, she is a CPA, PhD, and professor as DePaul University. Her career path is anything but traditional, taking her from documentary filmmaking to TED Talks to innovative educational platforms. In this conversation with host Mike Potenza, she discusses her passion for accounting, emphasizing its relevance and power in understanding financial dynamics. And she inspires young accounting professionals to hone their capabilities and leverage their creativity as they grow unique careers.
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Transcript
Introduction of Dr. Kelly Richmond Pope
00:00:09
Speaker
Hey everyone, it's Mike Potenza from Becker Cool Careers and Accounting Podcasts. And we've been here before and it's great to have such interesting guests come and speak to us.
00:00:21
Speaker
But today's guest, I mean, she blows everyone away. it is absolutely amazing. If you look at Kelly Pope's resume, you're gonna say, Is this a real person? Can one person really do all of these amazing things?
Early Influences and Decision to Study Accounting
00:00:35
Speaker
Well, let me tell you, Kelly Pope can. So with that, I would like to introduce Dr. Kelly Richmond Pope, my guest today, and we're going to go through her career and talk about so many interesting things that she has done. So Kelly, welcome to the program.
00:00:50
Speaker
Thanks for having me, Mike. Thanks for thinking I'm cool, too. You are more than cool. That goes without saying. And I know our audience, when they hear what you are doing, they're going be like, wow, I want to be like Kelly. She is cool. They used to have those ah commercials like, you know, be like Mike and all that stuff. Well, I think we could have like a new Nike, be like Kelly, because that's what I want to do when I grow up.
00:01:12
Speaker
please I don't know. You earned it, believe me. And and I know our audience is gonna believe that as well once we're done now talking about the life of Kelly Richmond Pope. So let's just kind of start early, all right? we I always love to get an understanding. you know though the The field of accounting sometimes doesn't come across as the most glamorous or sexy profession, but now we have young Kelly growing up and she makes a decision that, you know what?
00:01:40
Speaker
I think I'm going to study accounting. How did that all come about? Can you give me a little background on that? Well, sure. So first I wanna start, but i just roll back a little bit because I don't think the field of accounting comes across as not not sexy or not not exciting. So I don't wanna start there because I think all fields sort of present the same. So I thought that accounting seemed as exciting as being a doctor, as being a lawyer, as being a lieutenant, um being in the Navy or the army. So I always looked at those careers, accounting careers as being equivalently as exciting as anybody else.
00:02:16
Speaker
So i particularly thought that any career that involved money was relevant. And so for me, ah you can't name one profession, one industry, one business that doesn't come back to understanding how much money do we have? And so all roads always lead back to accounting. So I think that um I was always excited about the relevancy of any of accounting. So, um, my early days, um, I started taking my first accounting class in high school at Charles E. Jordan high school in Durham, North Carolina, go Falcons.
00:02:54
Speaker
And so, um, Mrs. Farrell was my accounting teacher and she is still alive and I still keep in touch with her. And, um, That was my first introduction to understanding really basic accounting.
00:03:07
Speaker
But I felt like if you can manage money, you are pretty darn powerful. So that was really my first interest in understanding that you are a so one of the chosen few. um If you enjoy it, understand it, and then can offer that knowledge to other people.
00:03:24
Speaker
that That is great. And you and I, we're of the same like mindset that, yeah, accounting is super interesting and should be considered sexy by those people that really have a greater understanding of what we do.
00:03:36
Speaker
So um that with being said, When you're growing up in Durham, North Carolina, and you have a high school teacher, and she kind of guides you to know that, hey, Kelly, this accounting may be something that you'll find really interesting, and you may want to think about studying in college.
00:03:55
Speaker
Did you go to college in that accounting major and know that that's what you wanted to do? Well, my my teacher, Mrs. Farrell was my teacher, but my mentor was my father. So um my father was a university business school professor, later a university business school dean, and then later became a university president.
00:04:16
Speaker
And so his PhD was in operations research. So he had a little bit of accounting, but not enough to make him dangerous. So he said really encouraged me to major in accounting. And so at that point in my life, my dad's strategy for me was, hey, Kelly, major in something that if you did not decide to go to graduate school, you could just go get a job. If if that's what you wanted to do, you could go work for someone or you could go and start your own business.
00:04:46
Speaker
So that was really his strategy and his advice and counsel to me um when I was a junior in high school and I was a senior in high school. So, um, Mrs. Farrell was my class, but my mentor was my father.
00:04:59
Speaker
And so I, I say that because I think it's really important for all of us to make sure we have those mentors and those sponsors that really help guide us in our, in our personal lives, because your teachers know you one way, but your parents and your family and your mentors, they know your passions and they know your heart.
00:05:18
Speaker
So it's really important to have that person in your life too, So um I took the advice of my dad and majored in accounting um coming out of once I graduated from high school.
00:05:29
Speaker
And um I attended North Carolina A&T State University. Go Aggies. And so I majored in accounting there. Okay. And it's so important. i mean, that's just such a great point you make about having that mentor, whether it's a parent or a relative or a family friend who can help guide you.
00:05:44
Speaker
And unfortunately, there's a lot of people that don't have someone in that position to be a mentor. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, we wanted to bring you in to just talk about how you did it. And maybe those people who don't have a mentor can listen to this and be like, wow, Kelly Pope really makes sense in all these different things that she's telling me. So,
00:06:03
Speaker
You go to um North Carolina A&T and you get your bachelor's. Did you go straight through for master's through PhD or what was it your what was your path once you completed undergrad?
Pursuing Higher Education in Accounting
00:06:16
Speaker
So when I was in college, um I did summer internships. So my first internship was with GE, General Electric, um and their information services, um one summer information services, one summer was corporate benefits delivery.
00:06:28
Speaker
So I had that work experience um in the summer. So started intern in my sophomore year of college. But something that I did in college also is when I was um initiated into Beta Alpha Psi, then I started doing a lot of tutoring.
00:06:44
Speaker
And I realized that the best way to learn accounting is to teach somebody else accounting. And so when someone's asking you questions and you're formulating ways to answer those questions, then you get a better understanding of it as well.
00:06:57
Speaker
And I realized when I was tutoring that I really liked teaching. And so just growing up in a family of educators, so my mother was a guidance school counselor and my father was a university president a university professor, then president, like I said.
00:07:11
Speaker
And so um I realized that that teaching teaching gene was always in me. So um something that my father encouraged me to do was um go and get your master's, go ahead and get graduate school over.
00:07:25
Speaker
There's always gonna be a time to work, but it's sometimes harder to make that transition from back from the work world to graduate school should you decide to do that. So while you're in study mode, go ahead and go to go to graduate school.
00:07:40
Speaker
And that was a tough decision at the time because all of my friends were out with their jobs. They were making money. They were buying cars. They were going on vacations. And I was still stuck as a broke student, but i felt like, you know, this is going to pay off at some point. So I am graduated from A&T with my bachelor's in accounting. And then went straight to graduate school at Virginia Tech.
00:08:04
Speaker
And so I entered their master's of accountancy program. And then my second semester of my master's program there again, my dad again in my ear said, Kelly, you know, you seem to really be picking this up.
00:08:17
Speaker
I think that you should go and get your PhD. Just do it. Just do it. Now, I did that a little bit more kicking and screaming because I was not one of those kids that did not listen to my parents, especially when it came to professional advice.
00:08:31
Speaker
So I always look to somebody that's done it before me, that's been successful. I'm going to listen to them. So I did what my dad said. I went ahead, applied to the Ph.D. program when I was a master's student at Virginia Tech.
00:08:43
Speaker
And I went ahead and got accepted to the PhD program. So I stayed um at Virginia Tech. So yes, I did go straight through school, which was ah great in in some areas and bad in the others because I was so young. I was the youngest PhD student ever at Virginia Tech.
00:09:03
Speaker
um I was the youngest of the PhD project students when I entered into the PhD project community. So, you know, everyone sort of thought like, who is this little kid that's here? Because a lot of people were getting their PhDs as their second and their third careers.
00:09:18
Speaker
And this was still sort of like my first career. So to answer your question, yes, I did go straight through school. So I, um with the master's for, in the master's program for a year and in the PhD program for four years. So a total of five years after I had graduated from a and t Wow. Yeah. And I know that that is number one, grueling, right? When you have to go through all that and, you know, part you wants to get out and work and make the money and be able to spend money and do a whole lot of other things. So, you know, a lot of credit to you for saying, you know what, I'm going to get this done now and then I'll worry about the professional part of it after I get all the education completed. So, you know, credit to you on that.
00:09:57
Speaker
So you're now a PhD, you're a doctor and you're trying to figure out, okay, What's next? You know, there's working in accounting firms. that Do you want to become a CPA? Are you not going to go the CPA route? So what was the mindset once you graduated and you had that PhD?
00:10:16
Speaker
So what's interesting about when you get PhD, so PhD is a research degree and you teach, but it's a research degree. learning research skills, how to ask questions, how to publish articles.
00:10:28
Speaker
And so once once you get your PhD, the typical path is to become a professor. So very few people in um in accounting, And I would I would say in in business schools in general, but very few people in accounting will get a Ph.D. and then go work somewhere.
00:10:46
Speaker
um Psychology, they might get an or um a degree in um like org psychology. They might go work in a consultancy. But most people, they get a Ph.D. in accounting are going straight in the path of becoming a professor.
00:10:57
Speaker
So that was sort of laid out. That's why you do it. There's no other reason really why you wouldn't, because it's not like an economist where an economist can go and sort of move in different spaces. Accounting PhDs typically don't do that. They go straight into teaching.
00:11:12
Speaker
So I um graduated from Virginia Tech and my first job, my first academic job was at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, where I was an
Interest in Forensic Accounting and Becoming a CPA
00:11:22
Speaker
assistant professor. And I was there for four years, but I felt like There's something more that I want to sort of experience.
00:11:30
Speaker
And I had a student um that wrote a paper on forensic accounting and I was teaching an international, it was international accounting and ethics. That was the the combined class. And so I had a student that wrote a paper about forensic accounting and I read it and I was like, hmm.
00:11:48
Speaker
That's pretty interesting because it's this blend of accounting, auditing, psychology, sociology, um and then just a dash of nosiness if you're nosy.
00:11:59
Speaker
And so I thought, you know, is though this is a great field. Like, I love this. So I thought, let me go and see if there's some roles in forensic accounting that maybe are with one of the big four firms.
00:12:10
Speaker
So I called one of my partner friends that I knew and his name is Joe Spinelli. So Joe, shout out to Joe because he was the start of this. And at the time, Joe Spinelli was at KPMG.
00:12:20
Speaker
And um I called him and I said, you know, Joe, I think I want to make a change. And I know this is going to sound rare because most professors don't step out of academia and go into um the big four.
00:12:32
Speaker
But I think I want to do it. So Joe says, great. You know, that would be that's wonderful. We'd love to have you. But. have you passed the CPA exam? And I was like, what?
00:12:43
Speaker
The CPA exam? Like, I got a PhD in a accounting. I got a master's in accounting. have a BS in accounting. Why are you asking me this? And he said, well, no, you need to be certified. because you have those things, the exam should be a piece of cake for you. So call me back when you finish passing.
00:12:58
Speaker
it's So I was so I get off the phone and I'm like, OK, so I need to buckle down and I need to start studying. So that's when I became a Becker student. And I remember I formed a little Becker study group and um we study, you know, this is at the time when you could go to a live class. And so I remember we were at the Cary Academy, Cary, North Carolina.
00:13:21
Speaker
We'd go twice a week to this live class and then we'd study. all weekend long. When I say all weekend, I mean Friday, Saturday, Sunday, all weekend. And so, um yeah, so I had had to study, you know, because when you become a professor, you teach your class, but auditing and tax, those weren't my teaching areas.
00:13:41
Speaker
So it's not and it's not like I remembered all of that from my days when I was an undergraduate student. So i I can tell you that I would not be a CPA if it was not for Becker because I needed, definitely needed that review and those just shows ways to remember all the material.
00:14:01
Speaker
So um i my strategy was, um okay, Kelly, It's been 10 years now since you've been out of undergrad. Like some of these some of these things are just, you've forgotten about them. So my strategy was at the time, the CPA exam was offered um twice a year.
00:14:18
Speaker
So I knew, okay, go in, focus on two parts. And then the second time it's offered, focus on those other two parts, even though you had to take all sections at the same time. So I knew just get two parts done, then get two parts later.
00:14:29
Speaker
And so did that, passed the exam, became a CPA later in life. So I was a late bloomer, but um I can say that, um, having my CPA license is probably i'm not probably is, is one of the top three things that I'm proudest of in my, in my professional, um, just achievements, because I always liked having something that would set you apart. So when I walk in the room, I know that there are very few people that are CPAs and PhDs in that room. And so I really, really liked that. So I, you know, always, I mean, I thank Becker because it's, um, I,
00:15:09
Speaker
There's so much I had to relearn and i had to relearn it quickly. Okay. I mean, that and it's great that you could show by example, it's never too late, right? Because a lot of times we'll get people that come to us and say, hey, you know, I'm 30 years old or I'm 40 or I'm 50 years old. Is it too late to get my CPA? And the answer is no. You know, we work a lot later in life now and, you know, it's never too late. So that's great to hear.
00:15:32
Speaker
And then the next question I have for you is you go through your PhD, You get your CPA, you're working at KPMG, but now Dr. Kelly Richmond Pope decides, I'm not going to stay in public accounting. I'm going to go back to academia and DePaul University. So what happened there to make you do the shift from public back to academia?
Return to Academia and Filmmaking Journey
00:15:54
Speaker
So um the shift was because of more of just who I am as a person. I am a i'm a very um creative, um independent, self-thinker, self-starter, self-doer with a team. But like I just have a lot of ideas. And when I get an idea in my head, I want to do it. And so ah what I learned when I was with um KPMG, and this is probably within any organization, is I needed to be in an organization where I could spread my wings, if you will. So if I had an idea, i wanted to be able to execute on that idea.
00:16:31
Speaker
And so what I, what I really needed was I needed the PhD, the training from Virginia tech. I needed the training from the big four, and then I needed the place to go and spread.
00:16:43
Speaker
And so the spreading really happens for me in higher education because the What you might not realize about being a professor is it's very entrepreneurial and very creative because you look you look at your class as a clean slate.
00:17:00
Speaker
I create experiences in the classroom. I don't just stick to the textbook. This is my opportunity to take just a just a a blank slate of a class and create what I'm going to put into it. And if that doesn't sound awesome,
00:17:15
Speaker
I don't know what does because we don't often have the opportunities to be able to create something, see the reaction, and then they leave and then you get to do it all over again. So it was it was more of the environment that I knew that I needed it to thrive in.
00:17:32
Speaker
And so once I got some of the big four experience and then with the training that I had from um from graduate school, going back into higher ed was just a perfect place for me.
00:17:44
Speaker
where Where were you when I was taking my accounting classes? Why didn't I have you as my professor? I tell you, i feel like I missed out. So now at the the very beginning of this, I did a little intro and I said, well, you're going to hear all about Kelly Pope and the amazing things that she's doing. And right now, you know, Kelly's talking about, all right I'm a PhD in accounting. I'm a CPA. And it's all kind of accounting focused. But That's we've just like scratched the surface on Kelly Pope.
00:18:08
Speaker
Now, you said that you like to spread your wings and if you have an idea, you want to execute on it. So can you tell us what was the first thing, the first endeavor you took outside of the world of accounting and said, hey, this is not what traditional accountants do, but hey, here's something I'm passionate about and I want to do. So talk to me about that first big idea.
00:18:26
Speaker
Sure, and I think the first part of our conversation, wanna highlight that you have to always build that foundation and the building of the foundation isn't always fun. If you think about how a house is built, you know you see a house built and what we see when we drive by is the pretty stucco and the landscape and the like, oh, this house is beautiful.
00:18:47
Speaker
You never say, oh let me look at the foundation and see if that at that gray slate looks good. You don't say that, but it's so important to have ah a great ah great foundation. So for the first, I would say 20 12 to maybe even 15 years of my life was really built or really was focused on building that foundation so that I could go and do some of the things we're going to talk about now.
00:19:12
Speaker
But without that foundation, you know, getting the degree, whether it's your bachelor's, whether it's your master's, whether it's your PhD, whether it's a certification, whether it's CPA, CMA, CIA, whatever it is, that foundation building sometimes isn't as fun. And so what I think happens is we tend to lose a lot of people in foundation building, but whatever career you go into, you're going to have a period of foundation building and it might not always feel sexy, but if you can get through that, then you get to the fun. And so I've got, I've gotten through that. So my first, um,
00:19:50
Speaker
big project. And when I say through getting through it, even as an assistant professor, going from an assistant professor to an associate professor, there different levels. It's like being promoted.
00:20:00
Speaker
And so the promotion level between assistant and associate professor at most universities is you go up for tenure at year seven. So again, there's another seven years of just building this foundation.
00:20:14
Speaker
So once I was promoted to an associate professor, that was when I was able to sort of spread my wings. And so all these ideas that I had, i was able to execute on. But just to give you a timeline, I graduated from undergrad in 1996.
00:20:30
Speaker
I became an associate professor in 2013. So all of that timeframe, that's building. And so, you know, there's not a lot of parties going on during that, but I knew that if I built it right, I would be able to to really execute on top of that. So once I became um an associate professor, which is the next level after an assistant professor, that's when I um launched my first ever documentary. And so the reason you're probably gonna say documentary, like where did that come from? So one of the things that I've always loved is I've always loved movies. I love movies. I always have...
00:21:08
Speaker
some kind of show on. And it's not that I'm watching the actors, I'm watching how the show is built. What's the storyline? How is it written? How is it shot? What's the music that's used?
00:21:21
Speaker
Because all of those really create the experience that really helps you connect with the with the show. And so if I can figure out how I can use some of those, even experiences in the classroom, I can connect with students.
00:21:33
Speaker
So I'm always watching for just the artistic quality of films. And so I said one day, you know, I could make, I could probably make a documentary that I could use because Research-wise, my research area is white-collar crime, forensic accounting, and and fraud, a little bit of ethics.
00:21:54
Speaker
And when you go to a PhD program, you have to declare a research area. And so a lot of shows are, a lot of true crime shows really embody all of those characteristics, but that's not all the same. You can't always show that content in class. Like imagine if we decided we were gonna watch, um,
00:22:14
Speaker
ah Breaking Bad in class. I probably wouldn't have a job for much longer if we did that, right? Or even if we watch Ozarks, I probably wouldn't have a job for a long time.
00:22:25
Speaker
But there's some really important themes in there that you can talk about and teach around. So um I decided, you know, I could probably do a documentary and create the kind of content that I want.
00:22:36
Speaker
So my first project was was called Crossing the Line, Ordinary People Committing ah Extraordinary Crimes. And it was chronicling five different white collar felons sharing their story.
00:22:49
Speaker
And so this was, when this project launched, this was right around the time that American Greed on CNBC had started. And it always annoyed me that you never heard from the offenders when you were watching American Greed, it was always a narrator talking about a story. And so I wanted to go to the person and talk to them. So that was my first project.
00:23:09
Speaker
And what I noticed from that is when I started it, so many universities wanted to use it, show it, screen it. So I had shown that film probably to, what, maybe 75 different universities around the country.
00:23:24
Speaker
And then um I got recruited to go to a film fellowship program at Cartemquin Films called Diverse Voices and Docs. And this was my filmmaking, true filmmaking program where I was gonna get formal training.
00:23:38
Speaker
So again, I'm back to that foundation building, but now I'm layering accounting, I'm layering my research skills. I'm layering my big four experience. I'm layering my classroom experience all now in this filmmaking program. So that's really where it all came together and why you see some of the projects that you see me doing now.
00:23:59
Speaker
Well, I mean, it's just it's fascinating to me from, you know, um bachelor, master, Ph.D., CPA, public accounting, academia now to, OK, I'm going to write and develop and direct documentaries. And then yet they're so successful. So I just think that that crossing the line was such a great idea.
00:24:18
Speaker
And before I go into the next project you had, just one quick question for you. That analogy you used about the house and the foundation, is that copyrighted? Because I think I'm going to it. It is. Now, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:30
Speaker
All right. I'll cut you in on a little bit on the royalties. All right, so crossing the line, successful documentary, going around to university, showing this, but then you hit it, I want to say big, because I thought this documentary was absolutely amazing. All the Queen's Horses.
00:24:46
Speaker
Now, I'm going to let you tell the audience what this documentary is all about and where they can see it. And then I want to ask you a question or two on it, but i for those people who haven't seen it yet, riveting. So tell me about All the Queen's Horses.
00:24:58
Speaker
So All the Queen's Horses is a 71 minute documentary that is about the largest municipal fraud in US history committed by the ex um city comptroller of Dixon, Illinois. Her name was or is Rita Cronwell.
00:25:12
Speaker
And so the documentary chronicles how this fraud happened. And so when I tell you that when I pass on, Mike, on my headstone, it's going to say wife, mom, friend, mother,
00:25:27
Speaker
and all the queen's horses. That's what it's going to say on it because it was so light. It has been a life changer. And so every I don't know if everybody gets to do a project that will have so much impact on not only their own personal life, but the lives of others, but that has been my project. And so The reason being is um Rita Cronwell was a regular person. She was a ah a city comptroller. She wasn't a CPA.
00:25:58
Speaker
She was more like a bookkeeper. um And she kept the finances for this really tiny town called Dixon, Illinois. They had 18, approximately 18,000 people. And she was able to embezzle over $53.7 million dollars over 20 years in plain sight. And no one suspected anything wrong until they did.
00:26:18
Speaker
And so I did a documentary about it. And when I say that, um I never would have imagined that it was as, it would be, at well, I'm not going say that. I knew it would be successful because I was on, I was dedicated to make sure it was, so I'm not even going to say that.
00:26:33
Speaker
No, I knew it would be successful. And so it, um, It's streamed on Netflix from 2018 to 2019. It currently now lives on Amazon Prime, so you can see it there.
00:26:45
Speaker
It's been um shown on national um PBS stations, 13 to be the flagship, which is in New York. um It's been so screened um across the world, Australia, New Zealand, of course, Canada. you know So it it's one... um think five or six film festival awards, it's been in 13 international film festivals. i mean, it it it just ran. And so one of the things, the reason I'm saying that is is to show the the level of dedication to learn another field, but a field that really just really helps spread the word of why everybody needs to know accounting.
00:27:25
Speaker
And so as much as it is about accounting, it's also about auditing. It's about um horses. um It's about law enforcement. um So it's about a lot of things, but it's actually really good. It's entertaining.
00:27:38
Speaker
Well, it sure is, because I am not a documentary person. I'm like always looking for some kind of action karate or something like that. And I was riveted. I sat down there i was like, this can't be true. This has to be made up. I'm i'm shocked by it. Now, this Rita Crundwell, did you ever meet her?
00:27:56
Speaker
So um one of the questions that's so what that's a question that's come up. No, i I'm sure that I am one of the most hated people to her in her life ah because not everybody does a documentary about a person. But so the documentary is about what Rita did. It's not about Rita. So it's not about.
00:28:15
Speaker
Rita as a child and who Rita went to the prom with and who she married. And it's none of that. It's about what she did. And so we know very well what she did. We know how she stole the money. We know how she spent the money. We know how long she was stealing the money.
00:28:30
Speaker
and we So we know everything about the fraud. So as much as you want to hear from Rita, the way I structured the documentary excuse me, the way I structured the documentary, you really don't miss her because the documentary is about the fraud. It's not about the person.
00:28:47
Speaker
Got it. That makes sense. So let me ask you this question now, because you said, hey, right now, this is a thing I'm going to be remembered for, right? It's on my headstone. So it is really, truly a great and interesting project. But what are some of the reactions from viewers who see this and they come back to you and do they have like great questions? Are they like, oh, my God, like how do they react to this?
00:29:07
Speaker
Well, it depends on who the audience is. So um if the audience um happens to be students, they're like, I've never met a professor who's done a film.
00:29:19
Speaker
If the audience is a group of CPAs, they're like, CPA is making films. That's sort of wild because I don't know a lot of people that do that. um If the audience has been um residents. So um when I was doing the film festivals, I would go to these various communities.
00:29:35
Speaker
Sometimes the communities would be very rural and they would say, OK, I'm looking for Kelly Pope. Who is she? And I'm like, youre here she is. Here I am. And so some people were shocked that I was the director ah because.
00:29:47
Speaker
they weren't expecting who who I showed up to be. um So it really depends on um who who is asking. Most people, are concerned that that amount of money could be missing and they didn't notice it. And so that makes them have this point of self-reflection of, could this be happening in my community? Could it be happening in my company? And I always follow up by saying, and that's why you got to know accounting, because you need to be able to pick up a set of financial statements and be able to ask at least three to five questions.
00:30:21
Speaker
Just ask a question. I'm not saying you have to go and pass the CPA exam, although I think everybody should, but I'm not saying you have to do that, but you at least should be able to ask three to five basic questions when you look at some numbers.
00:30:33
Speaker
And if you can't do that, you should take an accounting class. Well said. Very well said. So, all right. So we have PhD, professor, CPA, big four, film documentary
Impactful Projects: TED Talk and Red Flag Mania
00:30:45
Speaker
maker.
00:30:45
Speaker
Now Kelly decides, hey, maybe I'll go on a TED Talk. So how did you go from all of these different things? And now all of a sudden you're appearing on TED Talk. So they related as one lead to the other. Walk me through that process and tell me about your TED Talk.
00:31:00
Speaker
So my re this is really going back to my research area. So um being white collar crime and forensic accounting. And so my TED talk, my ah first title of my TED talk was, why do we hate whistleblowers?
00:31:13
Speaker
And if you think about how fraud tends to happen, there's the perpetrator that takes the money or does something bad. And then there's somebody that tells on them, which is a whistleblower. And despite the importance of that whistleblower, most of us, if we're really being honest with ourselves, don't trust a person that's trying to be honest. And that was really the core of my TED talk. So DePaul University had a TEDx event and um you they were soliciting people to um submit a talk idea because you have to have an original idea that's worth sharing. That's sort of the TED motto.
00:31:50
Speaker
So the first year I was like, you know, I'm going to talk about whistleblowers. I submitted my video and guess what? I wasn't selected. The first year submitted, you know, said this is what I'm going to do And, you know, I'm not uncomfortable on camera. So, recorded myself and I submitted and got denied. They were like, no, don't want to do this.
00:32:10
Speaker
So I said, OK, fine. You know, rejection happens and you get up, brush your shoulders off, keep going. So the next year TEDx event came around again. And someone encouraged me to apply again. And I was like, no, you said no once. I'm good.
00:32:24
Speaker
and they were like, no, no, no. I think you should apply again. So same talk, um same idea. And I submitted the video and it was accepted. So um when it was accepted, i was one of the ted original TED experts. ex-speakers at DePaul.
00:32:39
Speaker
And um so I did my talk. It went well. Probably one of the hardest talks, though, I've ever given. um I am very comfortable talking off the top of my head. But the way Ted wants you to talk, you have to do it under 18 minutes.
00:32:53
Speaker
You can't use any pictures on your, any any text on your slides, just images, very, very, very light text. So you have to memorize what you're going to say. And I'm not a big memorized speech speaker.
00:33:06
Speaker
So it was hard for me. I probably practiced maybe 200 times in front of a camera so I could critique myself because I had to first hit a certain time period and had to make sure I hit certain points.
00:33:19
Speaker
So I did the TED Talk. And because of my topic and because of the turmoil at the time that was going on, there was a ah lot of talk about um unethical behavior of some of our political leaders at the time.
00:33:35
Speaker
And so my talk was selected by the TED organization to become an official TED talk. So when it became an official TED talk, my talk was front page on the TED.com.
00:33:49
Speaker
yeah, TED.com website. And I was super excited. So then that is what made me become an official TED speaker and an official TED talk. So I think the talk now has been viewed about 1.8 million times and has been, um I think at the time I looked, it had been translated into probably 22 or 23 languages.
00:34:11
Speaker
And so, but the basis of that was really from my academic research. And then from my experiences going around and doing on-camera interviews with white-collar felons, whistleblowers, and victims of fraud.
00:34:23
Speaker
So one of the things I hope you hear is I'm doing the same thing, just in a different context. So my research area is this. So I might put it into a documentary.
00:34:36
Speaker
I might put it into a podcast. I might create a case on it, or I might do a TED talk about it, or i might write a book about it, but it's all the same thing. So I'm very, very good at repurposing.
00:34:48
Speaker
Hey, that's great, right? Well, our society today, it's all about recycle, reuse. So but I think that's a good thing. So you just brought up, um you know, maybe make a case about it, right? So again, we've done documentaries now, we've done TED Talks, but now you've developed something known as Red Flag Mania, which is basically gamifying forensic accounting, which is like amazing because who's who's gamifying anything in accounting, right?
00:35:16
Speaker
So tell me a little bit about this red flag mania. What is it? Who uses it? Where can we see it? How'd you come up with the idea? yeah So red flag mania um is the brainchild of myself and Ronnie Jackson.
00:35:31
Speaker
And we started this company back in, The original idea started in 2018. We were funded in 2019, and now we're just running crazy. But um it is an ed tech platform that uses true crime stories to teach an array of topics.
00:35:49
Speaker
We started in accounting. um We have accounting courses, auditing courses, tax. um ethics, of of course, fraud and forensic accounting, computer science, information technology, um nursing.
00:36:02
Speaker
So we it's gotten larger than just accounting, but using true crime as that foundation. So we created an immersive investigative platform that ah that we lay our cases on.
00:36:14
Speaker
So if you think about most cases, fields, most majors, most disciplines are very applied. And what always bugged me about the way we teach um in the business school, but specifically accounting, is we teach a lot of our courses from a theoretical perspective, but a lot of other fields teach their courses from an applied perspective. So if you want to be a nurse, you got to go into the field and be a nurse. If you want to be a teacher, you got to go in the field and be a teacher or a doctor. So
00:36:46
Speaker
why don't we do the same thing in accounting? Why don't we give you an immersive experience, not just a PDF case that you read, but something that allows you to really sink yourself into a case, review evidence, and really improve your critical thinking skills.
00:37:03
Speaker
So um Red Flag Mania really takes the best of true crime, the best of um business theory, or whatever theory we're laying on top of that, um the best of documentary filmmaking,
00:37:15
Speaker
and putting it all together on an online platform to turn it into an immersive learning environment. And when you say immersive, we're talking about like watching, you know, um a factual like short film or video of real actors acting out cases. And then you have to kind of play detective. Is that how it works? Well, well i'm and when I say true crime, I'm using true crime um on purpose because What you described at first, at the first part is right, where we fictionalize a case or fictionalize a story.
00:37:48
Speaker
But as you go through your investigative journey, one of the highlights at the end is that you we have a true crime mini documentary that you also watch too, that might have the actual FBI agent that investigated the case.
00:38:02
Speaker
It might have the victim in it. It might have the perpetrator in it. So then you're able to hear from the true experience. Because one of the things um I think that Harvard Business Review does a great job of creating cases.
00:38:17
Speaker
But again, they are, you're reading on a PDF file about a case. So it's a very passive learning experience. And so what we wanted to make sure that we could do is create a more rich, engaging, active learning experience. And so the films are listening to voicemail or um searching websites or trying to just look for clues.
00:38:39
Speaker
You know, that sort of, um So gamified, I'm just going to air quotes for gamified, because a lot of times when you gamify things, you think about you're getting a point system or yeah there's a leaderboard. And we don't do that.
00:38:51
Speaker
But there's elements of the gamified experience that we lay on top of an investigative experience that helps you learn. So let me ask you this question now, you know, you've you've given life to this product, right? it's ah It's a kind of cutting edge, you know, there's nothing out there like it.
00:39:07
Speaker
What is it when you're sitting back maybe in a classroom and you're watching students watch or go through your red flag mania? Are there any takeaways from you that like how students react to this that you never even envisioned or what's the feedback you get as you watch people go through the program?
00:39:22
Speaker
um So it's, it's always, um it's exciting to watch what you figured people would, would feel um because here's the thing about being an educator and, and you can agree to this. If you're bored with yourself, everybody else is bored too.
00:39:38
Speaker
And so if I'm boring myself, just reading a chapter and then showing some PowerPoint slides and then just talking about it, if I find that boring, then the students are going to find that boring too.
00:39:49
Speaker
So what's really great is seeing their excitement sometimes. And I just did a pilot test in my class yesterday. But what I often do when I have students um doing a red flag mania case is I close my eyes and I just listen to the sound of the buzz of the learning in the classroom.
00:40:08
Speaker
So you hear them talking about it. You hear them strategizing. You sometimes hear them bickering back and forth. I mean, they are into it. I've even had students that have turned it into a game night where they invite students that are not even in the class to come over and try to solve this case.
00:40:24
Speaker
So it's really um it's it's really been fulfilling to see people students really becoming and embracing this concept of being a lifelong learner or wanting to be. And so we currently have about, I think 220 universities um that it did utilize red flag mania and probably ah love a little under 55,000 students. And that's growing because we just have a big, big group coming next year.
00:40:51
Speaker
So, um you know, inch by inch by inch, we're changing the way um the classroom experience has to be inch by inch. I think it's more like mile by mile, the way you're moving.
00:41:03
Speaker
All right, so now we've talked about documentaries, TED Talk, Red Flag Mania. How about one of my other favorite things? I have right right here. I have my own beckerized version of my autographed copy of Fooled Once.
00:41:17
Speaker
I have one too. favorite version. I love it. I love it. So now, as you said, you're taking this white collar crime, this fraud, and you've put it through many mediums. Now you say, I'm going to write a book about it. And for anyone out there that hasn't seen or read this book, it is a fantastic book. You will really, really find this well worth your time if you read through this.
Writing 'Fool Me Once' During the Pandemic
00:41:39
Speaker
But tell me, when did you get the idea to write Fool Me Once?
00:41:42
Speaker
Sure. that idea actually, um funny story. It came to me um right after my TED Talk launched. So what happened was when you do something like a TED Talk and it starts becoming popular.
00:41:58
Speaker
So when I got to around 800,000 views, about 700,000 views, ah seven hundred thousand views so um No, half a million. It was half a million, half a million views. That's when um agents started reaching out to me and they would say, hey, Kelly, you know, we noticed this TED talk that you launched.
00:42:14
Speaker
It has half a million views. You have an audience. I think you should consider writing a book. And I was like, yeah, right. I'm not doing that. I've done a documentary. Isn't that enough? And they were like, no it's just something different about a book.
00:42:27
Speaker
You're an academic, you're all these things, but you don't have a book. You should write a book. And I'm like, not listening to this. So that was in the, you know, the talk came out. I can't remember the date, maybe 2017, 2018.
00:42:38
Speaker
And so I just sort of put it aside. And then when the pandemic happened, i um there was a really slow time for everybody. And so a friend of mine said, you know, you should really put all of your adventures in a book. This is the time to do it. So sit down, stop talking and write the book.
00:42:56
Speaker
And so um that's when Fool Me Once was really um born. And um I was really fortunate to um have Harvard Business Review Press as my publisher.
00:43:08
Speaker
um And I have a really great agent, Mike Signorelli, um who's my agent at Avetis. And I'm He pitched the book to Harvard Business Review Press, and they liked the topic. And um the rest is history. But you know that um you know I've had some really um unexpected career wins that you wouldn't think a CPA would have, or a person in accounting would have, or even an academic would have. And I'll tell you, um first, having a film on Netflix would never have thought about that.
00:43:45
Speaker
Second, um seeing your book in the airport was, you know, to go to San Diego and see your book in the airport or go to New York or go to Denver or go to Florida and see your book in the airport. um You know, just one of these moments that you would never suspect that would happen to you.
00:44:05
Speaker
um And then one other, a couple others, just, you know, being on NPR or being on, you know, you know, being on C-SPAN, talking about the book, like there's just been some things that some spaces that I've been able to move in.
00:44:21
Speaker
And I think um a lot of it started from being this unique kind of CPA. And so getting that training, but then sort of having this unique message that most people aren't there operating in. So it's just sort of made it easy to go through the door and have some of the some of the wins.
00:44:40
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you, I I could definitely attest to seeing the book in the airport because I do a lot of traveling and I saw that book that I was like, wait, wait, wait, is that Kelly's book? I was blown away and it wasn't just in the bookstore. It was like front and center on their big display. So, yeah, that is very, very impressive. And just a question or two on that book, ah just because our audience may not know, is it a fraud textbook? Is it fiction? Is it nonfiction? Is it a combination? What exactly is inside? It is not a textbook.
00:45:07
Speaker
um It is a story-driven, character-driven book about all of my adventures and the people that I've met and how I've classified um various types of perpetrators, victims, and whistleblowers. So it is not a textbook. So notice I didn't say that.
00:45:23
Speaker
I have read a textbook force before. So I have a textbook with Pearson, um Pearson Learning. It's a managerial digital first textbook. So I have done that. um But no, this is not this is not that. And you know, it's interesting when you look at the book,
00:45:36
Speaker
One of the discussions I had with um are the publisher, typically, if you look at the spine of the book, you see um that it says Harvard Business Review, if you look here. But typically what Harvard does is they put their name right here on the on the cover of the book.
00:45:52
Speaker
But because they thought that this book was a little bit more mainstream, and could be sold in um the true crime section or the mystery section within Barnes and Nobles, they took their name off because they thought it would sell better.
00:46:07
Speaker
And so this is one of the first books that they did not put Harvard Business Review Press on the cover because they said, it would it would make it too academic and it's not that kind of book. So it's fun. It's fun to read.
00:46:22
Speaker
Wow. So last question on the book. There was a line in there that kind of stuck with me and I'm hoping you can explain it. So the line in the book says, fraud looks like the person in the mirror. Now, when I read that, that scared me because I look in the mirror, I'm like, oh God, is that what I look like? but But tell me, what does this mean from a fraud perspective
Understanding Fraud and Balancing Multiple Roles
00:46:42
Speaker
inside your book? The person in the mirror.
00:46:44
Speaker
So here's the thing. No, Mike, you are not going to steal $53.7 million dollars like Rita Cronwell. You're not going to do that. No. But maybe we might um use our work time to plan a party.
00:47:01
Speaker
Or maybe we might, on that work trip that we're going to that conference, we might take our family, not go to the conference, and then just sort of like explore Disney World the whole time. And we know we're supposed to be at the conference, but we really weren't there.
00:47:15
Speaker
We might not want to call that what it is, but it's a little fraudulent too. So all of us are able to justify or rationalize the behaviors that we want to do because we think, guess what? I'm a good person.
00:47:29
Speaker
I'm not snatching anybody's bag. I'm not doing anything totally wrong, but we all have these ethical missteps. And so that quote about it's us in the mirror, we need to recognize that we do those things. and and and You know, some things are bigger than others, but we do them. And so when we think about how fraud happens, fraud starts small. It really, really does. I mean, even the example of my documentary, although Rita's fraud ended up being $53.7 started out at $25,000.
00:48:02
Speaker
it started out at twenty five thousand So like it starts small. It starts with those small things that we might do that we don't get caught doing. And when we don't get caught, that sort of opens the door for us to do more and more and more sort of push the envelope because, you know, a lot of us operate.
00:48:19
Speaker
um i i'll I'll explain if I get caught, but if I don't, I'm fine. You know, ask questions, you know, just do what are you're going to Ask questions later. I'll explain later. You know, the phrase I'm trying to get at. So it's just really having this self-reflection that we all need to have so we can stop profit from happening in our organizations.
00:48:37
Speaker
Wow. So, I mean, we've gone through so many different things that you do. You wear so many different hats. And I'm sure there's a lot of marketing, promotion that goes on with them. And yet you have to balance your regular job with all of these other projects.
00:48:51
Speaker
Just give me an idea, day in the life, like in Kelly Pope's life, how do you do marketing, promotion, balancing of everything? Talk to me that. don't know. I can't imagine. I can't imagine.
00:49:01
Speaker
You know, it's not typically all the same on the same day. um So it's rare that I'm wearing 15 hats in one day. That's pretty rare.
00:49:12
Speaker
and Like I wouldn't do that to myself because one of the things I try if I'm showing up, I want to show up at my best. And typically I can only manage about two things a day that might be very different.
00:49:23
Speaker
But one of the things that I've been really good at or just been fortunate is because everything is accounting, everything so often is around ethics, fraud or crime. I'm typically in this circle. And so it's pretty. pretty easy for me to just sort of pick up and turn on at any given moment in those areas. Now, if you ask me to teach a tax class, that's a whole nother ballgame because I have to i have to retool in a way.
00:49:48
Speaker
But I'm sort of in my wheelhouse and i sort of stay in my wheelhouse. So it's not that hard. All right. please Please don't take tax. I teach tax. ah You've done everything. All right. So now, seriously, you really have done so many things, more so than anyone out there listening it to us is going to do in their career. But are you done? Are you ready to retire? Are there new ideas, new projects? What's what's next for Kelly Pope?
00:50:18
Speaker
You know, Mike, I think I'm probably getting close to being done. You know, like I feel like I'm i don't um I don't have a lot more that I feel like I need to try or or um feel like, yeah, I need to fulfill. you know There's just been so many things I've just um been fortunate to learn and be a part of and that have been very successful. So you know I feel like let's retire on top, not at the bottom. So you know. I stay very busy.
00:50:47
Speaker
so you know i i stay very busy with um creating content for Red Flag Mania. So seeing that grow and seeing that get to a certain point, to a certain level is um my last sort of goal on my list. And so I'm not taking on a lot else. I don't think I'm going write another book. um I'm in talks of maybe the documentary becoming into um a series um for one of the um for one of the um what do you call them?
00:51:17
Speaker
the some one of the movie places, you know, i forgot what name I want to say, but yeah one of the big studios, one of the studios, that's it. That's the word I'm looking for. So, so maybe, but you know, even then i would try, i would have more of a passive role with that.
00:51:35
Speaker
So I really don't know. I don't, I don't plan out too far. um I'm typically on a, 12 month horizon of, you know, okay, I did this for a year. What's next?
00:51:45
Speaker
So yeah, well I don't know. I would not be surprised if something new comes up, but I understand I can see where you are. Hey, have I've done a lot. Let me just kind of go out and finish up what I've started.
00:51:57
Speaker
But just on that studio role, if they do decide to turn it into a series or a film, I mean, i have some time available. I get mixed up with Brad Pitt a lot. So if you need a leading man, feel free to have your people contact my people. Okay.
00:52:12
Speaker
All right. So now here's the last thing that I have. You talk about a foundation, right? And you've built your foundation. If you now Kelly Pope at the end of a career, looking back playing, you know, Monday morning quarterback after the game's over, after you've done all of these things, can you say, I should have done something differently or maybe accounting wasn't the right one for me? Would you change anything or would you still go down the exact same road that you've gone down?
00:52:39
Speaker
I'd go down the exact same road I've gone down. i wouldn't change anything. I would do exactly what I've done. That is great to hear. I mean, that's gotta be very rewarding to know. You know what? I made the right choices. I had some good advice given to me and you know, not all children listen to their parents. I can attest to that. Cause I have three of them. Sometimes it's a challenge to get them to listen to me, but you did and it all worked out well. So, you know, that's just gotta be so rewarding for you.
00:53:04
Speaker
Now, the last question I have for you, Think about all of the other young men and young women out there that are in high school at this point, or maybe just starting their college career, and they may be listening to this.
00:53:17
Speaker
If there's any advice you can give to them. Now, you've already given them some good advice throughout this, but if there's one piece of advice you can leave with them, would it be to go into accounting or would what would it actually be? You tell me, what's the advice you could give to this young generation?
00:53:32
Speaker
I think my advice would be to focus on a career that gives you a set of tools that you can build on and do things with. And so um don't always focus on what might feel um the most exciting because excitement is very short-lived. It really, really is. And so i was always attracted to um stability and relevance.
00:54:01
Speaker
And money. And so those are the things that were important to me. So, you know, find those things that are important to you. There was, um, I forgot her name, but there was a person that said something that was very powerful to me a long time ago.
00:54:13
Speaker
And, um, she said, ask yourself what you were are doing when you were eight years old. And because when you were eight, you were free. You didn't have any responsibilities. You just did things because you were truly genuinely passionate about that.
00:54:27
Speaker
And what was that? And I thought about that question. And when I tell you what I was doing at eight, you're going to say, fast forward, I'm not going to tell you old I am, but fast forward a couple of years and you'll see how similar that was. So when I was eight years old, I used to write plays because I loved acting.
00:54:45
Speaker
action I loved um story. So I would write plays and um but have my friends act them out. And so I would go to my dad's office and I would print out the scripts.
00:54:55
Speaker
So I would write these plays and I did this for like at least five years, you know, for a long, long time. I i was a playwright. So I write these plays, my friends, we dress up, we'd act them out.
00:55:07
Speaker
And like, I'd invite my parents and their friends to come see them. So that's sort of like the movie in Kelly. And then I used to make these treasure maps. And so I would make these treasure maps of my neighborhood and I would tell my neighbors that there was treasure in the neighborhood and the map was $3. And I would walk around and I would sell these and my poor neighbors would buy them.
00:55:29
Speaker
So there is not only the entrepreneurial spirit of Kelly, but probably a little bit of the fraud person in Kelly too, because there was no treasure in the neighborhood, you know? And so, and then um when I think about what I was doing at eight, I remember,
00:55:43
Speaker
I would always teach to my dolls. I would set them up and I'd be teaching them different lessons. And if I think about who I was at eight, I am not very far off from who that person was now.
00:55:56
Speaker
So I remember hearing that. And I think that that's really good advice about thinking about who your core self was when you had no responsibilities, no stress.
00:56:07
Speaker
What did you like to do? You know, and even at a young age, I loved money. I remember when I would get my allowance, I would iron out the dollars on the ironing board. So they'd be crisp. mean, crazy stuff.
00:56:20
Speaker
But that was back in the day where you had to put a dollar to get like some in the vending machine. So it had to be really, really crisp. I would do that with my allowance. So I always I counted my money. I kept it with my money.
00:56:31
Speaker
So like that's who I was. and not they I'm not different, not far off from that now. Oh, well, just just simply amazing. So, Shelley Pope.
00:56:42
Speaker
PhD, professor, CPA, big four, film documentary, Netflix makers, ah um I mean, book publisher, TED Talk, Red Flag Mania, absolutely amazing.
00:56:57
Speaker
You are truly a role model, not just for those who are accountants, but for those in any industry, just to say, listen, when you have a passion about something, you know the sky is the limit, and you've really proven that. So I cannot thank you enough for sharing all of these stories with our audience.
00:57:14
Speaker
you You, again, as I mentioned, are a role model, and I think it's so important for young people to hear what you can do. And really, you're just limited by your own creativity and your own drive and your own desire. So Kelly,
00:57:27
Speaker
Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being such an ambassador to the field of accounting and everything beyond there. I've been working with you now for a few years on various projects personally. I mean, I think you're just such a great person and so smart and so intelligent.
00:57:42
Speaker
And I just really, really am so thankful for you to take out the time and spend a little bit and tell your story here today. Well, thank you so much for having me and all the thought provoking questions. All right, fantastic. Well, I look forward to the next time our paths cross and we get to do something together.
00:57:59
Speaker
too. meter Thanks again for listening to this podcast with Kelly Richmond-Pope. And really, I want to express my sincere thanks to Kelly for joining me. She did such an amazing job.
00:58:10
Speaker
Now, I also want to make sure everyone is aware you can earn CPE credits just for listening to this podcast. All you need to do is visit the link in the show notes and get your credit.
00:58:22
Speaker
And even better... If you're already a Prime CPE subscriber, you can earn these CPE credits at no extra cost. All you need to do to finalize this is just log in.
00:58:33
Speaker
Thanks again, and I really hope to see you in a future Becker Accounting Podcast.