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Pulpmania!
21 Plays2 months ago
The pulps are evolving in what seems like two distinct directions, and we have some thoughts on that. Ben, NiNi and friend of the pod Twig talk We Are and Knock Knock, Boys!
Episode transcript available here.
00:00 Welcome
01:15 Introduction
05:56 We Are: Branded Pair Background
14:37 We Are: A Rorschach Test of a Show
30:47 We Are: Final Thoughts and Ratings
38:21 Knock Knock, Boys!
48:39 Knock Knock, Boys!: Sex Positivity
55:51 Knock Knock, Boys!: Our Fab Four (and Jane)
01:09:58 Knock Knock, Boys!: Final Thoughts and Ratings
01:14:54 Importance of Pulps as Labs
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Transcript
Introduction to BL World
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation about BL, aka the Drunk Liquor Podcast. on the porch in the rocking chairs.
00:00:36
Speaker
Four times a year we pop in and talk about what's going on in the BL world. We shoot the shit about stories, all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens. I review from a romance and drama lens. So she like cracked out takes and really intense emotional analysis.
00:00:56
Speaker
If you
Discussion with BL Enthusiast Twigty
00:00:57
Speaker
like talking about artistry, industry, and the
00:01:15
Speaker
And we're back. This week, we have brought our good friend Twigty back with us. Say hello, Twig. Hi, everyone. Twig, who has watched way too many shows, far more than me, is joining us to talk about two pulps this week.
'We Are The Series': Introduction and Themes
00:01:32
Speaker
We're going to be talking about We Are The Series from GMMTV and Knock Knock Boys from WeTV. Before we get into that, I think it'll be very beneficial for us to set a baseline on what a pulp is. Twig, you've watched over 600 BLs.
00:01:53
Speaker
How would you describe a pulp considering most BL is basically indie cinema? One of the things that's characteristic of a pulp is is normally like low production values and formulaic plots. But formulaic plots, you could argue, is kind of one of the defining features of BL. So when I think about what a pulp is in the BL space, I'm usually thinking about particularly inferior writing, sensationalist beyond the normal level of unrealistic storylines, racy, and anything that's like particularly cheap looking or feeling.
00:02:35
Speaker
I feel like a lot of the times we're using pulp as a way to, maybe not intentionally, but it ends up being a derisive way to refer to a project. And for me, if I'm describing something as a pulp, I'm talking about something that felt like it was very quickly produced to turn money. Where it doesn't feel like there were a lot of people in the room who were overly concerned about individual choices that went down in the production and how they contributed to a
Creativity vs. Budget in BL Productions
00:03:03
Speaker
whole. You can feel sometimes that different groups worked on different parts of a project because some parts of it worked really well, but maybe don't connect to others.
00:03:14
Speaker
And so I have not watched six hundred meals, but right of edition of a cult, I'm thinking the lower production values. But to me, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think that when you are looking at piece of work that doesn't have a lot of budget, it can bring out some really interesting things in the production, depending on how creative people can get.
00:03:37
Speaker
And I think that's a ah good way to look at going into these two in particular, because on the one hand, you've got a pulp that probably did spend quite a little bit of money. And on the other hand, you have a pulp that Clearing didn't have a lot of money to spend, but used its money well. So to me, the low budget aspect or the minimal production aspect of things doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think the characteristics of a pulp are about how it feels, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. I feel like if people use the word pulp whenever they just mean that a show is bad, and that's not the same thing.
Favorite BL 'Pulp' Shows
00:04:20
Speaker
I don't want nearly as much as you guys. What are some of your top hopes? What are some of the hopes that you'll always watch? Make it right. Every time. Yes. Cosigned. That is a great one. Despite our impending conversation, I still feel very positively about Make it Right.
00:04:39
Speaker
what about its like I wasn't ready for this question and I always take forever to answer my favorite question. So I will say my favorite one that I've seen recently, the one that I still think about every so often after watching it was Lady Boyfriends. I talked about it in the last season's Grab Bag episode. It was a remake from 2014 and it has a lot of problems, but it's still doing a lot of really interesting things. My favorite cult is always going to be loved by genres.
00:05:07
Speaker
It's really probably, I think, in a lot of ways, but it's got a lot of heart to it. So much new swash of references in this. I think my other one will probably be... Probably Rainbow Prince. Oh, Rainbow Prince is so good! See, Ben's actually naming good shows. I'm just... A weird show.
00:05:30
Speaker
Uh, I always tread lightly when Remo Prince is brought up on this show because I still have not finished watching it and Ben will not let me rest and as much to your significance. He is correct. I just gotta find the time. Alright, so let's stop dancing around this thing. Let's dive and see.
00:05:56
Speaker
We'll start by talking about We Are and breaking down for us. What is that We Are About?
Virality vs. Ratings in BL Shows
00:06:04
Speaker
We Are The Series is about how GMMTV can make so much money by just putting boys that people like in front of you in an almost plotless device for 16 weeks. We Are The Series is about a group of college students who are in two different schools that are vaguely connected to each other by one person in common.
00:06:30
Speaker
Through a series of interactions, two of them come into conflict slash flirtation immediately between an art student and an engineer. Other guys have crushes on each other, and much of the show is about the slow matriculation of these crushes through the BL TikTok filter.
00:06:56
Speaker
why is the bl filter It's the fact that all of the sequences are filmed with the boys as close to each other in the center frame so that they fit on a vertical phone for the quick hits on TikTok.
00:07:11
Speaker
Oh, it's above reality. The head of GMM TV. has said that they no longer care about ratings, what they care about is virality. They care about hitting those killing moments to make sure that you get all the butterflies you want to feel and they're going to blast that moment into socials so that it goes viral. The same way the gift makers on Tumblr are going to rush to gift the most BL moment of the episode so that they can be first to get the notes is the same thing that GMMTV is doing. win As soon as that episode ends, they're going to be on YouTube with the highlights and they're going to be on TikTok and Instagram with the short reel so that those can go viral and get pushed out and they can draw more viewers to their socials to gain more advertising dollars as a result.
00:07:58
Speaker
And to maximize that on the thin frame of the vertical screen, almost all of your big BL moments now are going to be filmed like you're watching a TV show from the 1960s. And we're still on four by three screens again, because the frame is so narrow on a phone.
00:08:18
Speaker
I am not of the social media generation, so it's always fascinating to hear how this stuff has moved on while I have ignored it.
00:08:31
Speaker
So, let's get into the show itself. And it's been amazing. This is a show with a lot of voice, and multiple frame groups pull that thing together into a whole. And along the way, there's a lot of little promises. They're forming some of the things. JMMCD, what they've learned here is that they have utilized casting as a shortcut for certain things, which I actually thought was kind of a smart way to use casting. We talked before maybe a couple episodes ago ah about the art commerce nexus and I talked a little bit about why
00:09:12
Speaker
as if the branded pair system doesn't bother me as much as it bothers others. I thought this was actually a produce of branded pairs if you're trying to get people to watch something, putting a show together that relies on your affection for some of these people. It really helped pull you along through the show until it got to the point where the show itself started to pull you along. I thought that was really clever, actually. I guess if you're accepting the premise that we're not gonna use writing to do that, which is the part that I'm upset about, but maybe I'm tripping ahead.
00:09:57
Speaker
Before we get there Twigty, you're an archivist who's been watching the genre for like 20 plus years. How about you walk us through the four major pairs of boys that are in this and how their current pairing in this show reflects the way they've been branded previously.
Central Relationships in 'We Are The Series'
00:10:17
Speaker
There are four central relationships in this show.
00:10:21
Speaker
Poom and Peeam, played by Pond and Puin. Pond and Puin have been a branded pair for, I want to say three years, started and fished upon this guy. Have been in Never Let Me Go and then the R-Sky episode for Never Let Me Go as well. They also do a ton of branded pair things in between their shows and have played in heterosexual series in between their appearances in BL.
00:10:52
Speaker
Pawn and Puin tend to play... how do I describe this dynamic? They really like for Puin to be low-key pissy about something all the time and for Pawn to smile back at him for it. it's a grump ascent yeah crump And so and Simp. Thank you. The next one is Q and Tori, played by Rance Attack. They first appear in Fish Upon the Sky as well. They have a minor appearance together and star in my mind.
00:11:21
Speaker
They were kind of pre-paired in Fish Upon the Sky, like there was a thing, but it didn't actually turn into a thing. They first appeared as a firm couple with any real time on camera in My School President in 2022. That was ah rivals to Lover's storyline. In We Are, they've changed it up, which was actually quite refreshing. And the relationship between Winnie Satang is a mentor-mentee relationship. it It's Winnie who's the grumpier character. And Satang plays a very actually happy-go-lucky outgoing character that is very different to their appearance in A School President. So it's interesting to see them do something different. O.M. Boom played Tan and Fang.
00:12:07
Speaker
They first appeared on Ashante, but I don't think they actually got together on Ashante. I gotta be honest, I don't remember. I do not remember anything about Ashante. ah yeah aaa I want to say it was mostly unrequited with a hint of them getting together at the end, but don't only do that, I really don't remember very well. I do know that we saw them properly together in hidden agenda.
00:12:34
Speaker
Before that, they were very heavily shipped and vice versa. And I think they got like one like cheek kiss at the end of vice versa. And then Hidden Agenda, that was their first show where they were properly a couple. Now what do I remember about them in Hidden Agenda?
00:12:49
Speaker
but me that show was so forgettable They had like an interesting thing in Hidden Agenda because you had O playing a known closeted jock type character who really cared about his boyfriend but was incapable of coming out of the closet and caused real strain in their relationship. Yeah, so they had a lot of angst because they were an established couple but couldn't be seen together. Most of the time we saw them was about that, about the tension in their relationship. The best thing that happened in Hidden Agenda easily.
00:13:23
Speaker
Interestingly, in We Are, they play a couple that apparently in the book was an established couple, but they rolled that back, so we got to see them get together. The dynamic is a little flipped almost, where O plays the very heavy, simping character, and Fang is just sort of bemused by his energy. And into him, but not nearly as effusive. It's a puppy kitten dynamic. There you go. Puppy kitten.
00:13:52
Speaker
okay And then the last couple, Chain Pun, played by Mark and Poon. Poon had to come in very last minute to your replace Mark's former branded pair partner, who he's been with since my gear in York Down, which was 2020, so actually quite a long time.
00:14:15
Speaker
But I will say that Poon stepped in and did a great job blending with the whole group. And I would say after watching the series, I could not tell where they had to reshoot and fit stuff in. That was one thing that I think they handled really well.
Personal Connections to 'We Are The Series'
00:14:38
Speaker
I'm just gonna transition us to the next part pretty awkwardly I did not like this show and I had to drop it after five weeks because it was pissing me off Because the two of you finished this show, I want to hear about what was holding you into the show before I start picking at it. We'll start with you, Nini, because you loved the show so much. The show upheld your psyche for like four months. How? Why? It pleads. It did. It did. It's a combination of things.
00:15:14
Speaker
For me, he meant it exactly the right time and hit exactly the right buttons in me in terms of what I needed at the time. And looking back on it now, even though I'm a little bit out of what I was going through at the time, I still find it quite comforting. The two big parts of it that I really, really love. I love the way that the center of this show is about the friendship. It's about the multiple friend groups and how they become this one big friend group, this one group of silly boys who just enjoy each other's company so much and want to spend all their time together. It's got this kind of a real-time nostalgia element it where I could see the show being somebody's reminiscence about a time in their life that they want to remember incredibly fondly. When they were young and they had this big group of friends and
00:16:09
Speaker
All they wanted to do is hang out with their friends and have a ton of fun. I describe it when I was writing about the show while it was airing as giving me hospital playlist vibes. Hospital playlist is a Korean drama about this group of friends who are old doctors working at the same hospital. It's just about their lives and them bringing people in and them falling in love with people. I'm not saying that this is at the hospital playlist level, but it gave me the same energy. And hospital playlist is one of my favorite dramas of all time.
00:16:44
Speaker
So I enjoyed that aspect of it. The other aspect of it I i really enjoyed. This is the part where I was talking about where they use the actors that you love to sort of pull you along until the story takes over from that. Tan and Fang, as Twig said, they get together during the show and at first you don't understand why and how and what is even been happening there. And then I think it's episode 9 so it's just a little past the halfway mark of the show.
00:17:16
Speaker
that Than tells his friends the story of him and Than, how they met and how they got together. And it makes you understand everything that's gone before and everything that the show is trying to do in terms of how it's trying to organize itself. I had so many thoughts about it. Like, is there another way that they could have done this to front load this? Like I said, it's more than halfway through the show and you have to get there. And if you don't, if the show is not pulling you along to that point, then you're not going to get there.
00:17:46
Speaker
but it changed everything. The show is fluffy and it's sweet and it's just very wholesome and I really responded to it. Just talking about it now, I feel kind of a glow. I enjoyed it a whole lot. I'll save some of the other stuff for when we're actually talking about New Swatch and how New Swatch constructs shows and why this show worked for me in some ways that some other New Swatch shows have not.
00:18:15
Speaker
I was going to say, are we excusing the new Sawaj flashback to justify an episode five reveal? Four episodes later, all of a sudden, please play the double savage recording man in the booth. No, no, no, no, no. That's entirely different. And that's what I'm talking about when I say that how they actually used the actors and the casting and the rounded pairs in this was actually a really smart use if that is how new wanted it to do it.
00:18:41
Speaker
I appreciate Nusawaj as a creator. He pisses me off. But I appreciate him. One of the reasons that he pisses me off is that he has great narrative strengths in some ways. He also has a lot of respect for like the minutiae and the details of daily life and shenanigans between friends, which I appreciate, but I find interfere with his narratives when he's working on something that's narratively focused. To me what happened here is that this was not all narratively focused. What he did here is the same thing that he always does. It's a big group of friends just hanging over each other, the minutiae of their daily life.
00:19:29
Speaker
but it's not interfering with the narrative that I want to get back to, and so I can just sit in the vibe of it. To me, if new one's writing a narrative, sure I want it to be narrative, and now I've realized that if new one's to sit in a vibe, he actually knows how to do it. Twig, you finished this show. Why?
00:19:52
Speaker
I finished it for two reasons. One, I'm a completionist but and so I finished it for the reason why I watch a lot of shows that I don't like. Spoiler, I didn't like this. And that was so that I can understand what it did to the end and fit it into my internal understanding of what's happening with the genre at any given time. I summed up both reasons in one thing. I spent a lot of the time watching the show trying to figure out what it was trying to do.
00:20:21
Speaker
why it wasn't working for me and thinking about how it fits in in the wider context of what's happening in Tai Bial. We heard Nini's reasons for why she loved it so much. Please detail for us why you had such a difficult time with it.
00:20:37
Speaker
Nini alluded to it a little bit, this show is not narratively driven, there's no through line, and that's the reason why I watch television, is for a story. The way that I watch shows is I'm paying attention to what characters are doing it in the scene I'm watching, but I'm always thinking about how they connect to the scenes before, what that could mean for the future,
00:20:59
Speaker
And this should give me nothing for my brain to grip onto, scene to scene things were happening and that were fun to watch, but I couldn't enjoy them because I was thinking about how they didn't connect to the scenes before, and I was getting frustrated by that, and then I would get sort of bored because a scene in isolation isn't interesting to me.
Narrative Coherence and Viewer Experience
00:21:20
Speaker
I ended up like spacing out a lot and then having to rewind, and then realizing after rewinding that nothing had actually happened and I didn't have to rewind at all. I didn't miss anything.
00:21:29
Speaker
It was a really frustrating rewatch for me, just because of the way my brain works and processes shows. This show takes place in, it's not just a BL bubble. I almost call it like a plot bubble. Almost nothing bad happens. And any conflict that does arise is resolved within an episode. I understand why that would be comforting and relaxing to some people, but for me, I found it very anxiety inducing because I was constantly thinking why there's nothing happening. What?
00:21:57
Speaker
is going to come and there's nothing to be worried about. I wouldn't say necessarily that my experience of the show is a reflection on the show, but it is about how and why I watch shows. This show was not for me.
00:22:11
Speaker
I do want to challenge Nini's comparison to Hospital Playlist because I also have seen and loved Hospital Playlist. And the reason why I loved that show and couldn't get into the show was because Hospital Playlist was a very clear through line. And that was well the main thing that was missing for me and in this. The part where it took nine episodes to get to the backstory, I found frustrating and The part that bothered me most about that was that the reveals weren't rewarding you for having paid attention to anything that happened before. It didn't feel like they connected to things we'd seen but didn't yet understand. It didn't feel like the show was grounded in a story that it was laying groundwork for. It was just leading to particular scenes. We were often told
00:23:00
Speaker
that this is why a character is reacting that way, but there was nothing previously that made me understand it or told me that it made sense. like we're told that Feng is a bad boyfriend because he isn't attentive or doesn't show affection for Tan. But I don't think we ever see that before they tell us that, other than in the episode where they tell us that that's a Feng. We mostly see him just be really fond of Tan the whole time, so I was really confused by why suddenly he's apologizing for being a problem. That's definitely like, no, where I went would not
00:23:40
Speaker
but but And like the Q and Toy conflict happens because Q is upset that Toy didn't tell him that he was his secret post-it note buddy and his first love. We're told in that that Q was stressing over feeling conflicted about his feelings for the cafe post-it boy and Toy and then it turns out they're the same person, but we didn't see any of that conflict in any of the episodes that came before. So his anger felt like it came out of nowhere. It was justified within the episode, but we hadn't laid any groundwork for it. That was sort of my experience the whole time. It felt like I was watching 16 specials of a show that I didn't see. So I've always felt like I was missing context for whatever was happening, even though I'd watched the whole show.
00:24:33
Speaker
It was an uncomfortable watching experience. The show treats the audience like they're a member of the friend group and not an omniscience observer of any kind. so as the characters learn things about each other and their backstories. That's the same trend that the audience is learning it. So the show, in that sense, it has like a little hint of immersion. It doesn't give you so are you. If the character is surprised by something happening, so are you. For me, that works. For Twig, it doesn't. I completely understand that.
00:25:16
Speaker
The show is almost kind of like a road shock in
Vibe vs. Narrative in BL Storytelling
00:25:18
Speaker
that way. Like it depends on what things about media you like, how you like to consume media, what are the things that you enjoy that you don't enjoy in media. I like sitting in a vibe. The show is a vibe for me. Like I get to see people just kind of hang out and do their thing and be themselves. I really responded to that.
00:25:40
Speaker
And so the lack of narrative drivers and ground whirling and then all those kinds of things that if it was more narratively focused shows that I would be looking for, once I started to feel the vibe that the show was going for, I was able to sit back and just soak in it and enjoy that part of it. So I guess quite correctly identify what the show is doing. It's just that it worked for me and it didn't work for her. Yeah, it just hit us both really differently. The show did nothing. And for that, I despise it.
00:26:10
Speaker
but Here's the thing, there is so much BL to watch. The idea that I'm going to spend nine weeks to figure out what the deal is with these boys is just not going to happen for me. There's too much to fucking watch. And there was no driving angst or drama to any of this. We mentioned Make It Right as the big pulp we love from New Swash. In that show, there is real drama with the boys' relationships
00:26:42
Speaker
Both of our major pairs of boys have very unfortunate first times that create a lot of confusion between them and their relationships that they have to work through while also dealing with the coming-of-age pains of being a teenage boy. And there was really just no drama for me to hang on to this. The only real thread that the show had early on was like Pawn's character, punking Puin's character about demanding and ventured servitude.
00:27:09
Speaker
for inflicting medical expenses on him, for kicking him in the nuts or some shit. I just found that to be deeply repellent because I don't find slavery narratives cute. Like, you must work for me or whatever shit. No. I do not find that as a fun way to turn stuff into romance. And I got deeply put off in episode 5 with Oh's character confessing to Boom's character and Boom's character cutting off the confession. Because it felt like every time the show was coming close to an important core emotional reveal about a character, it intentionally interrupted the moment to avoid any sort of specificity and winking at the audience to be like, you know what this is. That may be fun for some people, but I found it boring.
00:28:02
Speaker
because it means that there's nothing specific about these characters to hang on to. That was the point where I just couldn't deal with this anymore. They took all the BNC list BL boys at GMM TV and dumped them in a 16 week basically hangout project of IG reels to fulfill a financial obligation to ICHI. That's the thing I want to talk about here too. This was not like a freemium product on YouTube. You had to pay money.
00:28:30
Speaker
to watch this for like the first month and a half before they started rerunning it on YouTube. So people were paying premium dollars on iQIYI to watch essentially a show about just guys hanging out. I was bored by it because these guys weren't that interesting. The most interesting thing we had with any of the guys going on was Pullen's character's angst about his art not measuring up to what he wanted it to be. That was ah about it!
00:29:01
Speaker
It was frustrating for me seeing so many people raving about this because there was really just so much of nothing here. It felt like the ideal kind of pocket gay.
00:29:15
Speaker
New usually has interesting things to say about the queer experience in one way, shape, or form. Even in the shows we've talked about on here that we didn't like, like A Boss and A Bait, had some interesting ideas about queer reality that I just did not feel from this show in the first five weeks.
00:29:36
Speaker
I put over five hours into a show that had nothing to say. That's more than enough. That's longer than a JBL. It's fine as like background noise, I guess, but I need to care about something going on in the show. If I'm going to sit down and pay attention to it and invest my emotional energy into it.
00:29:59
Speaker
I can't marinate in a show like this. There's nothing to think about for me. and Everything I did think about felt kind of insidious. Like what's the point of these gays clumping in a world where there's no problems with being gay? The reason we clump is because we're ostracized. Because we're the only people who will tolerate each other. Why does that occur in these situations where there is no reason for gay people to feel weird about being gay?
00:30:25
Speaker
That's one of the constant frustrations I've been having with these sort of bubble shows. I can't feel gay empathy and connection with these stories because some of the foundation is a missing.
00:30:48
Speaker
I'm just very frustrated about this experience and what it means going forward because this was probably super cheap to film and they probably turned a tidy profit on this. So that means there will be a lot more of this and it's called Perfect Tent Liners. There will be 30 episodes of this. I'm looking forward to your report on that one Nini.
00:31:14
Speaker
I think I'm really going to watch one of those stories actually. I see how there's a line from this to Perfect Ten Liners, and it's also being done by NusaWatch.
Future Trends in BL Shows
00:31:25
Speaker
But for me, given GMMTV is now stated goal of they're not tracking ratings, they're tracking socials. Given what that means for how they're looking at some of their projects going forward, I don't think it's going to be everything that they do.
00:31:44
Speaker
But yes, they're gonna do more of these. And if they're gonna do more of these... I think as far as a template, this is probably one of the better templates, because there are other ways that this could have gone. This one was balanced in a way that works, I don't think, from what I've seen coming out of Perfect Online. There's so far it's going to be balanced in the same way. GMMTV is experimenting with the art commerce thing.
00:32:17
Speaker
sort of more leaning towards the commerce because that's what GRMTV is. I kind of call them the CBS because they don't have that kind of thing, but they're like the CW, let's say, of high-use media. This is what you get. bring you don't really suit like If I didn't see other things coming, both inside and outside of GMMTV, I would probably be more concerned but for me there's so much out there right now
00:32:55
Speaker
There's a ton of variety lately. I don't watch nearly as much as YouTube, and that's maybe part of the rest of it as well. For me, somebody who watches maybe 15 to 20 shows a year, it's just part of the constellation, and it doesn't feel like a canary in the coal mine.
00:33:15
Speaker
See, but the difficulty is we're seeing this in a lot of the shows though. There's been this constant thing with not even just GMM TV, but they're sidestepping, having to say things about gay shit in these shows. We talked about it in 23.5. We talked about it in only boo. The concern for me is, inherently we are, the series did really well and GMM TV is brutal.
00:33:44
Speaker
about what they're gonna fund. They're gonna fund the shit that's gonna make them money. If this sort of ungrounded fluff is what makes the money, that's what they're gonna make. The problem for me with fluff is I need to feel like the characters suffered to earn it. And there's not a sense that the fluff here is earned There is a notion that is kind of romantic that, yeah, gay guys could just be, just guys being dudes. But me did this feel weirdly alien while I was watching it and I was really repulsed by it. That sucks because I like everybody involved. I just could not enjoy this at all and was deeply frustrated by it the entire time.
00:34:38
Speaker
To pick up something that you were saying, Ben, I think Nini is right that the friendship as the core of this show is one of the better things about it. But one of the reasons why that wasn't enough for me is because I couldn't read this as found family because there was nothing for them to unite against. There was nothing for them to be there for each other about. There was no challenge to that friendship. They just ate a lot of barbecue.
00:35:08
Speaker
and travel a lot. I couldn't believe that they would last because they hadn't experienced anything to actually challenge that. You don't necessarily have to have it in the show. The show can be all fluffy, but if there's nothing even in the history to support that these guys have been through it together, then it's hard to know how they would respond to an actual problem.
00:35:35
Speaker
So all that said, do we actually rate this because it's very clear that there's a dichotomy, not just within the group here talking about, no, generally about the show. I'm not sure if a rating is useful. What do you guys think? In terms of where I always recommend from, I always rate on the, do I think people should watch this? Who do I think this show is for?
00:36:04
Speaker
I think I dropped the show at a four because I was really repulsed by it. I don't think that's fair or reflective to the technical work that went into it, but for the type of reader that I think I'm trying to speak to, I can never recommend the show at all. I found the whole experience rather empty.
00:36:29
Speaker
I don't go to TV to fill the show with my own, I'm smarter than the people who wrote this stuff, or I will fill in the gap stuff. I don't like doing that in gay shows. So I can't recommend this show, not to the viewer. I think I'm speaking to. swear how about you I don't always rate everything. So I really struggled to read it. I'd probably put it like a.
00:36:59
Speaker
so You don't want to take away from the fact that there are people who don't watch shows like I do who found this very comforting. Like you were saying, it's about what you're looking for in shows and how you watch them. But the part that's frustrating for me is that there was so much time we could have used to tell a story. and So I find it hard to forgive that we don't actually get a lot of 16 episode hour long shows. So it's hard for me to not biggrudge the time.
00:37:30
Speaker
Obviously, I enjoyed this a lot more than you guys did, but I have two different ratings for it, actually. On terms of the enjoyability of it for me, it's covering somewhere around like an eight and a half nine. But on the technical merits of the show, I'd probably max it out at a seven. If as was I was going by my enjoyment, it would be a four. It was honestly painful for me to watch this. That's valid, friend. That's valid.
00:37:57
Speaker
but but Two out of three means that it's not a recommend from the conversation. I don't think we need to give it a harsh number rating, but legit, what's the angst of the show? What's the story? What are the drama here? I don't know. If you don't feel like swiping IG, put this on instead.
Exploring 'Knock Boys' and Relationship Dynamics
00:38:21
Speaker
Let's move on to the next pulp that we're going to discuss here, Knock Knock Boys by WeTV and let's knock knock boys out. Knock Knock Boys is about four men who move into cheap housing because they're all running away from something in their lives. Together they form one of the more effective friend groups we've seen in a long time and pair off into two really satisfying relationships to follow for a solid eight episodes.
00:38:52
Speaker
We get, in this show, a really good presentation of age gap friendships amongst queer people. I really liked that we got to see developing relationships between young people alongside developing relationships between working people. We also got in this show a really great examination about how you love someone out of the closet. And for that, I will be forever grateful. I liked this show a lot, comparatively to the last one.
00:39:22
Speaker
This show also had a lot of our faves in it, and they showed up to work. New faves and some classic ones, of one of the classic faves being Sanguichai, who is well-loved on this podcast.
00:39:37
Speaker
Can we talk about Best? Because Best has been in the business since 2017. He was in I Am Your King where he got to kiss Mark Zoulette. I'm always so happy to see his face and I think this was by far his best role. It's really nice to see him in a role that can highlight his skills.
00:39:55
Speaker
We talked a little bit about the overarching theme of it, but let's get into the details. The show has got, like I said, these four guys it split off into two couples, Amen and Latte, who are in university, and Pete and Tanua, who are just entering the working world.
00:40:14
Speaker
the way that these two pairs embody the angst of those two stages of life is really interesting. This is the difference between the last show and this show. During the last show we're mostly angsting about whether or not it's okay to like a show that's basically a glorified IG reel. This show has a plot and all of its characters have something going on with them. They have a clear want or desire. So you've got Latte who is a Amorous pansexual man who's having a great time in college. Too great of a time in fact. One of his professors says if your ass is late anymore for my fucking classes you will not graduate. So he has to move closer to school because he's taken too long to get out of bed from one of his conquests.
00:40:56
Speaker
to make it to class on time. Almond is finally out from under the maybe too sheltering thumb of his mother. And he is lying about his lodgings because he wants to live amongst the pores instead of the security guard ultra safe system that his mom wants him to live in. Tenua is leaving a not great relationship with another man.
00:41:22
Speaker
and Peek appears to be running from compulsory heteronormativity. What's really interesting is when these guys are breaking the ice, they're telling each other truthful things, but they're also holding back in a way that felt really earnest. I find a lot of times in these shows, because they need to expose things to the audience, these shows tend to have characters overshare with each other in a way that doesn't feel real. I thought this show did a great job of giving the audience the information we needed about why these guys were in the situation they were in.
00:41:52
Speaker
but giving the kind of polite answers that real people give each other about their situations. They needed a way to get these guys to start working together, so they create this conceit in which Almond really wants to hook up with this boy named Jumper, played by Pac Varyu. I totally understand why.
00:42:11
Speaker
He promises a year's worth of rent to whoever helps him score with Jumper. Hijinks ensue as the other three boys start trying to befriend Jumper and create scenarios for Almond to spend time with him so that they can get together. In the process of befriending Jumper, who we realize has a boyfriend already, Latte develops feelings for Almond and Tanwha and Peek end up growing closer together as well.
00:42:42
Speaker
We follow Latte's complex journey he has with people misunderstanding who he is as a pansexual person. Almond being an enthusiastic virgin who's very amped to explore his body and what he finds pleasurable. Tanoi is struggling with the thing we all struggle with in our 20s. Do we want to do the job that's the thing we dream about doing or do we take the safe option and what does that say about the other aspects of his life? And then Peek is deeply closeted because he doesn't want to let down his father. These are all really interesting threads to follow and the show doesn't ever really forget yet where the characters are and what
00:43:26
Speaker
their experiences reflect in the way they respond to scenarios that arise. We get this great evolution of relationships over time. One of the things that I thought the show did really well, and I kind of want Twig to talk about this part a little bit more, is we get Almond's initial crush on Jumper, and then the show breaks that crush by systematically making Almond recognize that maybe Jumper is not who he wants to be with. I loved that sequence so much. Almond has a crush on Jumper and his new roommates are creating circumstances to bring them closer together in order to win Ren for a year.
00:44:08
Speaker
that culminates in more and more situations where Almond and Jumper are in the room together and it's awkward. ah and Almond doesn't really know what to say or Latte's with him and Latte and Jumper have more in common than Almond and Jumper do. It was very subtle moments. Almond's crush being whittled away at.
00:44:27
Speaker
The party they have at their house results in everybody getting really drunk. Jumper gets really drunk because the roommates are helping to make him drunk so that he'll be more receptive to Almond. And Almond is also being made drunk so that he'll be a little bit more relaxed. Jumper.
00:44:45
Speaker
ends up getting so drunk that you gets really sick we see this in so many shows where someone will get really drunk and then have a moment where they break and make out or have sex or confess or whatever and what i love about the way they do that and knockap war is that Being really drunk is not sexy, it is not romantic, it is gross, and it is unpleasant, and Almond dealing with a disgruntled, loud, annoying, unwieldy jumper, and then a really gross jumper when he vomits all over everywhere.
00:45:17
Speaker
and then he shits himself! Oh, it was so good. You could see the moment on Almond's face where the pedestal that Jumper had been on in his mind just collapsed and he realized, oh, this is a human being that I've been into and he's a gross human being who walnuts and shits and smells really bad right now and is actually the opposite pacific of attractive.
00:45:42
Speaker
So they helped Jipper clean up Edmond Almond to sit with his new realization and process his emotions. Nini, you're a big fan of Sanguichai. I would like for you to unpack his character, Tanua, and the work he did in this show.
00:46:01
Speaker
Sangui Sanua and Sanua is the mom friend. Sanua is the one who takes care of everybody, he feeds the group, he guides them a little bit, and when he meets up with Pete, Pete basically is zoned out and also eats like an animal. Sanua is a foodie, food lover, really into food and cooking, and so he decides he's gonna teach Pete.
00:46:28
Speaker
how to really enjoy and savour food. And that's how the Fond Kan'wai himself is from like he's a character. He's got the sadness to him, and Sakurai always plays these weird, cringy characters with an undercurrent of sadness to them very well.
00:46:48
Speaker
Tung was probably the least weird cringy character he's ever played, but it's still got that undercurrent of sadness and melancholy. It makes you wonder, well, what has this character been through? Why is this the way that he is? And over the course of the show, you get to see some of what he's running from, what is making him sad, and Sang plays every beat to me perfectly. When things start to change with Pete,
00:47:19
Speaker
You see the sadness because Peek and in his mind get all the way there in terms of how he feels about Ganua. You can see that make Ganua really really sad as much as he likes Peek and he enjoys his company and he is falling for Peek.
00:47:36
Speaker
It's a great little dynamic, and Sen plays every nuance of this character is so well. He understands Peek and what Peek can and can't give him, and when he decides that he's going to give Peek grace and support for whatever it is that he wants to do, because at this point it's not just about their relationship, it's about Peek's life.
00:48:00
Speaker
There's joy in there, but there's also sorrow. It's a great character for Seng, and I am very glad to see him. it Every character I've seen Seng play at this point has been great. The boy can pick him. I will say that much. I think it's really notable that in the genre that's always using food as love, the not so subtle thing is Tanua is literally teaching Peek how to experience pleasure.
00:48:27
Speaker
because it's clear that the boy does not when they first meet him.
00:48:39
Speaker
This was probably the most sex-positive show we've watched this entire year. This show, through almost every single beat that it wanted to follow, had positive things to say about people's sexual relationships with each other, no matter how messy they got.
00:48:55
Speaker
Early on we get this instance where Peek is fairly certain that he made out with one of the roommates the very first night he stumbled into the house. And at first he's not sure if it's la say ortenwa because Latte Latte's kind of a flirt. We get this eventual resolution where he realizes it was Tanwha and up apologizes for kissing Tan while like that, and then asks if he can kiss him again properly. This is probably the point where I set up and was like, hold on, this show might be actually serious about some of its ideas. Because that sequence, when they were in the closet during the party, was so pointed. Particularly when Jane shows up the next morning and opens the door on them and they fall out. Yes. Really excellent stuff.
00:49:50
Speaker
There's another great bit that comes up. So they have this friend, Luke Peach, who's a great character. I really love the new class of girlfriend and BL who's doing supportive in a really fun way. It's the next evolution of the fag hack that we've gotten that I'm kind of into. I really liked the way Luke Peach was constantly about supporting all of the gays around her so that she could write her stories about them.
00:50:14
Speaker
They have this sex ed club where they're talking about gender and sexual identity, safe sex practices, respecting people's privacy. So we get this whole bit where they're having a conversation about don't record people.
00:50:27
Speaker
without their consent and especially don't create revenge porn about people by posting them without their consent. And it feels like Almond's not really paying attention during that moment. And he has this moment where he realizes who Jumper actually wants to be with, that he's not actually available and Almond disappointed about this. This is right around the same time that someone records Jumper with Sean and then posts it.
00:50:54
Speaker
And there's this brief moment where the show leads the audience to suspect that Almond may have recorded Jumper and Shaun in the shower and posted it online. and They reflect this by having Latte turn on Almond.
00:51:10
Speaker
and briefly think that Almond could have done that. This becomes a fault line between Almond and Latte and then a huge line between Jumper and Almond because this show plays the consequences of outing very seriously. Because of the video posted about Jumper, he is kicked off of the school's football team, he gets outed to his family, and he was not trying to come out to them at all because he did not know how they were going to react to that.
00:51:36
Speaker
Jumper confronts Almond about this because he had ample reason to believe that Almond was there and he's pissed at him. He's like, I thought you were my friend, how could you do this to me? It takes the Scooby Gang a really long time to suss out who was the actual culprit behind this and there are social consequences for Almond for a while over this where a significant portion of the student body is one being super nasty to Jumper, but also simultaneously shaming Almond for doing that to his friend, or so they think.
Social Issues and Personal Growth in 'Knock Boys'
00:52:09
Speaker
They end up revealing that it was Tanwha's ex who's been the one walking around recording people and then they send his ass to jail. This was a really excellently handled plot. I liked that
00:52:24
Speaker
The way the consequences played out across all of this happened in a believable way and was taken super seriously. because plot eri reverates out their repercussions for almanmanlate and their ah for and one um at this point is kind of depressed he sad so a lottte triedes st and on a trip that leads to some new wrinkles and complications of their relationship. There was stuff going on with Pique and Tanalar that when it became known to them that Tanalar's ex, who he had briefly moved back in with because of everything everything that was going on with Pique, that he had done it, something that happened in that moment of discovering that this led to reverberations in Pique and Tanalar's relationship.
00:53:14
Speaker
how the events reverberate and impact the group as a whole and then the individuals and the couples within it. I think it actually constructs it quite well.
00:53:26
Speaker
for a show that clearly didn't have a lot of budget didn't have a high production value or anything like that they used their narrative time and they used their budget well they built a story that worked for the kind that they had for the talent that they had for the everything that they had One of the things that I think might pass an international audience by but really struck me as super important was the depiction of sex toys. Sex toys are illegal in Thailand. They're punishable by, I think it's like two years in prison if you're caught selling them.
00:54:05
Speaker
and owning them is also not legal. And so depicting sex toys on screen, it's actually quite a radical act for Thai television. To encourage the use of sex toys is also a pretty politically strong statement for Thai TV, so I just wanted to call that out as a really impactful thing that the show did, and I think did really well It did a really great job of showing someone in Almond who had never seen a sex toy and was immediately fascinated and distracted. He stared at it. He did not believe this thing. He was just kind of both open looking at it. Boy was thirsty. That boy skipped home. He's like, I got my first dildo and I can't wait to use it.
00:54:55
Speaker
And we got to see him experiment with his sexuality that way and to play with the sex toy a little bit. And I thought that was an amazing thing to include in a show in any context, but particularly in a Thai television context. One of the things that was a fun thing in any show, but was a particularly political move in this show was Latte taking Luca Peach to the sex toy shop because they could have been arrested if they had been caught going there.
00:55:20
Speaker
in context of where I am in Canada that wouldn't have really struck me as anything other than kind of a fun cute thing to do with a friend and that it speaks to a certain level of comfort and sex positivity but it's politically charged in a way entitled that you might not necessarily be aware of. I think it's important to point that out because it still had an 18 plus rating and it's because they talked about sex the way they did. They actually didn't depict that much sexual content on screen
00:55:57
Speaker
Speaking of like depicting the complex situations around sex, you mentioned the beach trip they go on. One of the better beach episodes we've had from the genre in a long time because there's a lot of needing to unpack from some difficult things and big reveals about the characters that come out of that one. That's the first real moment to where Latte and Almond physically acknowledge the attraction that's been building between them for multiple episodes at that point.
00:56:29
Speaker
They end up in a complex make out that could have turned into sex that then stops. That I think really sets the stage for the rest of what develops and makes Latte one of my favorite characters we've gotten this year. He was so patient with Almond and was always capable of meeting Almond emotionally where he was. Almond took a while to get comfortable with actually doing sexual stuff. And even though Latte made it clear he was ready and down and wanting. He was able to communicate that in a way that didn't feel like he was pushing Almond beyond his comfort zone, which lets us later get this great. I want to have my first time conversations with both Peak and Tanwa, where we get to let them give him useful advice. I really love the way these boys consistently rallied for each other when some shit was going down.
00:57:25
Speaker
When one of them was having problems, they were really concerned about them and wanted to find a way to help them out. That was just really lovely. We know these boys have each other's backs, because they went through some real shit together. Latte was on it being able to lie to Almond's mother immediately. It wasn't even a question. He's like, oh, we lying to someone? OK, I'll help. but Right up until they got caught. And then he was just like, well, you're going to have to tell him.
00:57:55
Speaker
I want to talk about the Peek arc coming towards the end and Peek and Jane and how all of that played out. Jane was a great character. We learned that the reason why Peek is so stressed all the time is his mom died and this sort of brings an end to this really loving, idyllic family that he had. His dad becomes cold in his grief.
00:58:22
Speaker
and is constantly kind of hovering. Peek is struggling himself. He can't perform the way he used to about school and work and all of these things. He basically sort of closes himself off trying to be this ideal son for his dad. And so when his dad eventually tries to arrange a marriage for him with a family friend that's maybe financially beholden to them, he doesn't really say no to this because he doesn't want to let his dad down.
00:58:50
Speaker
but he also can't hide from who he is and so he just runs. Jane eventually finds him and she tries to be patient with him, like she clearly knows his deal, tries to help him with Tanoi, but she won't say for him what he needs to say for himself, which I thought was really fascinating. Once he gets caught by his dad, he goes back with his dad, and finally, after so many times that he should have said the damn thing,
00:59:21
Speaker
finally says to his dad what he needs to say about who he is and we get this really great apology from his dad. What's so fascinating about best performance in this is I think a lot of people conflate it best playing Pika's kind of spacey with his love by chance guest role and I think that was maybe a little unfair because he was just doing a bit for that character as a very very very tiny role.
00:59:51
Speaker
But here, peak spacing out is basically pain management. He can't stay present in the moment because he's suffering so much, which is I think one of the parts of the show that is understated but in a way that I think is really good. When I talk about being able to connect to the queer angst of the character, I can see how much Peek is suffering the whole time. That is most evidence by the way he transforms as soon as everything is out in the open.
01:00:26
Speaker
The last episode and a half of Peek is like watching a completely different character because he's not burdened by the expectation anymore. You can see how quickly he becomes the boyfriend he's been wanting to be this whole time in truly 10 while one. Because man, he put in real patience and effort with that man and he got what he wanted. Good for him.
01:00:52
Speaker
that whole arc is one of my favorite things in this show. And I think the thing that is going to linger with me most, one of the things that I really love about it is how carefully written it is when Peek is earlier in the show being so frustrating. I mean, the audience is frustrated. His housemates are frustrated than was frustrated. Jane is so frustrated. The way that people relate to or respond to him differs depending on whether or not they know what's going on. And as soon as what's going on with him is revealed, that frustration shifts. Fen'Wah is still frustrated, but so much more willing to give him space and time to figure himself out once he knows what he's figuring out. That it's not just about Peek holding back, it's about his relationship with his father. Fen'Wah is so much more willing and able to wait.
01:01:43
Speaker
Almond and Lante, similarly, feel like they're side-stepping around Peake when they don't really understand what's going on with him. And then as soon as they do, they're ready to show up for him, arranged to drive Fen'Wah to Peake at his dad's house so that they can be there to support him when he's ready to come out just to be there in case he needs them. I thought that was so beautiful. And then when Peake again does come out and shifts the way that all of the characters respond to his changes,
01:02:09
Speaker
It's also very organic and fluid and it feels very natural. It was just so well done and felt really well thought out. We say the show is really sex positive. Part of sex positivity is understanding that boundaries aren't bad. They're about establishing communication and understanding how your behaviors impact each other.
01:02:30
Speaker
Almond is running away from his mom kind of sheltering him too much. And when he finally expresses this to her clearly, she takes that in and apologizes for overstepping and maybe be smothering him too much. So when they're like, all right, now that we've gotten that result, we need to go safe peak. And mom's like, can I come? No, mom, you can't come. She goes, oh, okay.
01:02:53
Speaker
and she doesn't push back. She's like, OK, well, I understand I'll pay for your lodgings and your transportation. They play this for mild comedy, but this is actually really good. Mom does have a tendency to get over involved.
01:03:07
Speaker
And they don't want her jumping into their guy problems here, but they don't want her to not be involved per se.
Friendships and Support in BL Narratives
01:03:17
Speaker
They give her a way to feel like she's helping because she's got all this money. It's the same thing with Peek when he finally comes out properly to his father. His father apologizes for the conditions he created for Peek and tries to take steps to rectify that. That's actually a really special thing Everyone loved Peek enough to wait for him to make the choice himself. We have so many stories about gay people being outed against their will and having to suffer the consequences of that. That happens in this show too. I really love this show giving us the other end of that. Where nobody outed Peek even though we were all running to shake that man.
01:04:01
Speaker
They let him do it on his terms and he had a good experience with it when he finally did it. And he says it's the fact that everybody loved him so much that he felt like it was wrong to keep running at that point. That's finally what made him come out on his own terms. That's the big point. You have to come out for yourself for it to be meaningful and for you to have the courage and fortitude to be out and live out. This show was excellent and I loved all of these boys and their friends and especially Jane. Oh my god, I love Jane. And she was gay. Good for us.
01:04:45
Speaker
That actually annoyed me a little is why this show didn't get a 10 for me because I thought they were entirely too cute about withholding the lavender part of that lavender. Oh, I sensed it the whole time. I was just waiting for them to confirm it. It would be the one thing if they would held it but they misdirected on it.
01:05:03
Speaker
And this was in the translations in the subtitles, which is why it annoyed me. I know that the word that they're using in Thai is a gender neutral word, but in terms of the subtitles, they're not using a gender neutral word. It felt like an unnecessary misdirect for me. That's probably like my only little quibble about it. And it's really a translation thing and not anything to do with the show as presented. So, eh.
01:05:31
Speaker
I'm fine. It just had to get it out. We talked about saying it in best, and I want to give some love to Nokia and Zhao Nying because I don't think anybody could have done Amen and Latte as good as Nokia and Zhao Nying. I have some real appreciation for these two voice talents. I want to go to Twig because...
01:05:53
Speaker
This is not our first time with Nokia. I did not watch all of Thank God It's Friday. Was Nokia this good at physical comedy in 2017 or 19? I'm sure he had to know he was that. I remember him in that show as standing out as one of the ones who can act. Thank God It's Friday for Context was a show full of a lot of boys who had never acted in anything before.
01:06:18
Speaker
And they weren't given a lot to do and it was a little bit rough. I remember being one of the few who looked like he might have somewhere to go from there. So I was really glad to see him again, but he's definitely improved. I thought Nokia was so good at the physical comedy of playing Almond. Like I really just loved watching that boy move around.
01:06:40
Speaker
and react to literally everything that was happening. He felt so present in every scene he was in. Best and Sing are really good at that too, and it was nice to see a newer performer, for us at least, be able to match that energy. Jeanine was really charming as Latte.
01:06:59
Speaker
It was really fun to watch an actor play a guy who looked so comfortable in his own skin. All these guys are super tense about something going on. Peek's fighting the closet he's in. Tanoi is struggling against normie expectations the whole time and Almond just wants to get fucked so bad.
01:07:21
Speaker
It was so refreshing to see a character in latte, played by John 9, that was very much not as stretched out as the rest of them. He owned his sexuality in a way that was really refreshing too. I love his refrain of, you know, I'm transsexual, but I'm still choosy. I don't think I'll sleep with anyone, excuse you.
01:07:43
Speaker
And I think this is something that you actually have mentioned, Ben, in in your thoughts on the show. I just love how he leaves all of his past relationship or interactions positively it seems like. So he keeps running into people who he's had sex with in the past and everyone's just happy to see him. It was really refreshing to see people who have a very active sex life and have that be a positive thing in their life rather than a negative thing.
01:08:11
Speaker
I just wanted to pick up on something that you said earlier about the fact that Latte is probably the only character who's not stressed and you enjoy watching that relaxation that Zhao Nai placed in the character. But when Latte does get stressed, I think Zhao Nai is also very good at making that feel uncomfortable.
01:08:29
Speaker
Like, Latte is not comfortable with the idea of being stressed out by the existence of the life that he wants to live. When you can see the tension in his body and how it feels unnatural, I thought he was actually really, really good at that aspect of this character. We got so lucky, like, we got such a talented cast here. Even in like the first episode or so, there was this weird flirty energy but between Latte and Twink and Arcar like, are they gonna do it?
01:08:57
Speaker
Please let them fuck. We need to see what's happening. I'm still a little sad they didn't. Sincerely, the point at which I realized this show was going to be something else was Latte was living in the house alone first and was throwing parties and shit and leaving a mess. He's not thinking about the fact that he has a new roommate that moved in. They left the fucking mess. And he felt bad about that helped clean up and assured Tanwell that that would not happen anymore, and it doesn't. In so many other stories, his inability to stop partying would be a big part of his character, and it just isn't here.
01:09:38
Speaker
But he is constantly capable of respecting other people's space and boundaries. He recognized that he had maybe overstepped with Tan Wua, rectified that, and then corrected the behavior. It's a small thing really early in the show, but that was when I was like, this show might actually be onto something. There's a lot of people I like here and they seem to know what they're saying.
01:10:04
Speaker
I was really relieved to genuinely enjoy the whole ride of the show. It was so refreshing to have a show that was solid.
01:10:15
Speaker
for the most part, the whole way through where we could follow where the show wanted us to go. There were some missteps where I think some batons didn't pass as smoothly as they needed to. But I had such a great time following this. This was a really robust experience with really memorable characters and performances. At a time when shows so often write boundary violations as romantic It's just so refreshing to have a show to pick boundaries as healthy and respected and positive things. Before we go, we have to talk about Almond and Latte having the perfect first time. Yes. It was so good. Fastest vaccine of the year. but but I have spoken at least once or twice on this show about
01:11:06
Speaker
a Mexican film called Cauchrolunas. You've probably seen a twig that has a first time sex scene between two teenagers that is just as awkward as this one. And this sits up there. I really liked how real that felt. It's Almond's first time. The boys clearly thought way too much about sex. He cannot relax.
01:11:25
Speaker
they can't really get into anything. It doesn't matter how experienced or good a sex latte might be, until Almond relaxes, they're not going to be able to do anything. And I like that it's after they give up on trying to make it happen, that that's when things click. Whatever happens after we fade away from them,
01:11:46
Speaker
Latte clearly had a good enough time that he was like, let's try that again the next day, which is also capped off by Tanoi and Peek, clearly post-Coitus, coming down to check on them and asking plainly, did you have a good time? Give us the review of Captain Dick here.
01:12:05
Speaker
And he says we had a really good time. I really like that even as part of the expansion of healthy sexual boundaries, they're still giving Almond the space to talk about these sort of things in a way that's comfortable for him. Like you can tell your friends that you had a really positive intimate experience with someone really important to you.
01:12:30
Speaker
And it gives you the space to be able to tell them maybe if you didn't. I feel so secure about how those boys are going to be because they're not going to be isolated and alone. Whenever they run into any sort of difficulties, they have people who they can talk to about real shit. I love this show so much. Oh, my God. Well, that said, let's read it. It's like what's your reason for not enough boys?
01:12:58
Speaker
I gave it a solid nine. I think it had something very clear to say and it said it really, really well. It wasn't a perfect execution, but it was really fun. And overall it was a solid effort and I'm definitely going to return to it. I loved it.
01:13:17
Speaker
and away you It's also a nine. There are a couple of emotional beats that I don't think land correctly or at the very least did not translate well for me. And I think certain plot lines got closed off in a way that was a little too pat, but I respect what the show is going for with those moments. This show is really excellent and you really should watch it, but it is not like a greatest of all time show.
01:13:48
Speaker
I also give this show a 9. I enjoyed a lot about it and my quibbles are minor. And I really loved all the performances. Great job team. This is like a nine plus from the conversation. Sincerely, do yourself a favor and watch this one. We've complained a lot about Thai BL, just really not putting together a complete show. We've got one here and you deserve to watch this. In fact, I think one of the big things about the show is that in the first episode, we commented this felt more like a rom-com and not a BL. And the show said that in the mouth of one of the characters writing about the world.
01:14:25
Speaker
that they wanted it to be more rom-com than the baseline expectations of BL. I really hope this is a sign for the future of what we are capable of making out of this genre because this was so enjoyable. I was about to give up on jig-tai shows before I started watching this one. I've been struggling out here. It's been hard in these streets.
01:14:58
Speaker
but Okay, so all that said, what do we think that these two shows leave us thinking about pulps and the role of pulps in sort of the BL ecosystem?
The Role of Pulps in BL: Creativity and Experimentation
01:15:08
Speaker
Man, it's just so much easier to talk about a pulp when it has something to say that's interesting. And you can talk about how what the characters do and say reflects the themes that the show cares about. Like, we're talking about whether or not empty fluff is fine and we are.
01:15:26
Speaker
But we're talking about the actual themes and characters and choices that were made in Knock Knock Boys. That's such a huge difference. And this is what we mean when we say like there's this huge range in pulps. You don't have to only like the show one way for you to get a lot from it. And that's what I like to see out of these sort of scrappier productions. You really want to see people with a good story to tell that has a strong thematic core and is able to express that through all of the viewpoints that it has in its story. Like the villain of Knock Knock Boys is well calibrated for the themes of Knock Knock Boys. That's actually really good writing. So I'm going to borrow you any thoughts? I think
01:16:15
Speaker
At the end of the day, whether something is a pulp or not is not a good indication of whether it has something interesting to say, whether it's a fun watch, whether it holds together, whether there's a good story. So take the word pulp for what it means and not for what it doesn't. It doesn't actually tell you anything about whether or not you like the show, I think, unless you have very specific taste.
01:16:43
Speaker
I don't watch a lot of the popes, like a lot of the classic Thai BL popes are shows that I've never seen. One of the things that I enjoy about these two shows is that they give me some experimentation in two different directions. They are the producers trying something out.
01:17:00
Speaker
PULQs are like a lab in that way. The PULQ format allows creators to experiment with ideas. Some work, some don't. It allows them to experiment with returns in some cases and that can be good and that can be not so good.
01:17:19
Speaker
It allows them to just sort of see what's gonna work without spending a ton of money. And for that, I can't ever truly knock them. There are not a lot of them that I enjoyed personally, but I think that they have an important role to play in the ecosystem of the genre.
01:17:42
Speaker
That's one of the reasons why I always try and watch them all, or at least as many of them as I can. I am always really interested in what people can only say in a pulp that they couldn't say in a show that's made by a major production company. I've had some good conversations lately with Shan ah about the City of Stars, a pulp that had some Really interesting things to say about being famous and being gay and being in a ship and how all those things can and can't exist at the same time in Thai popular culture. Just comparing that to how the same themes are handled in shows by major production companies. and You guys talked about it in the Only Boo episode about how there's only so much that a company that makes money off of selling ships can say about ship culture.
01:18:31
Speaker
Whereas a smaller production company is more free to criticize fans. That's the kind of thing that I'm always listening for when I watch pulps. It's like, what are the things that they could say and do that they can only do because they're under less of a microscope. and scroby upstarts that could So that is going to wrap us up on guys being dudes, which is what I'm going to call this episode. Absolutely the fuck not.
01:19:00
Speaker
i
01:19:04
Speaker
it's gonna be called pulp mania so that's gonna wrap us up on our pulp mania episode and with that we out say bye to the people