Transcript
Speaker: I think entertainment itself is not wrong.
Speaker: An overindulgence in entertainment, I think, is wrong.
Speaker: But entertainment, the idea of having fun, isn't wrong.
Speaker: But I think that using of, again, exploring, like you said, spiritual themes like possession and conversion and this kind of stuff in a setting that's totally different is a good way for the artist to think about the thing and also think about the value of the art on the self of how does the art not just help you depict beauty and truth, but how does it help shape you in the very doing of the thing?
Speaker: Hello everybody and welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: Today, oh, I'm John.
Speaker: I always forget to introduce myself.
Speaker: I'm John, the host, and today we have our guest John Taylor.
Speaker: So, two Johns.
Speaker: I hope that's not too confusing.
Speaker: But John is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary.
Speaker: He has a master's in theology with an emphasis on ministry in multi-ethnic communities.
Speaker: And he currently...
Speaker: works at Crosswinds Church in Wyoming through his residency at Calvary Church here in Grand Rapids.
Speaker: John and I have done some shows together before.
Speaker: He's a great lover of art and story and also a really sharp theological mind, and so I wanted to just have him on and chat about
Speaker: the importance of art to Christians and kind of what that means for us.
Speaker: So how are you doing, John?
Speaker: I'm doing well.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: It is still a little smoky outside.
Speaker: I was hoping the storm would drive it all away.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I woke up today and I couldn't see anything.
Speaker: And I was like, I really hope this is fog and not the smoke.
Speaker: It's less smoky, but it's still a little smoky.
Speaker: We'll get there.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: So I'm going to start with two questions that I ask everybody on the podcast.
Speaker: Um, and you're, you're, you don't work on art as frequently as some of my other guests.
Speaker: So your answers might be different, but we'll see.
Speaker: Um, the questions are first, what are you working on right now?
Speaker: And then second, how has God been using art in your life recently?
Speaker: So let's see.
Speaker: Are we talking artistically?
Speaker: What am I working on right now?
Speaker: Yeah, if you don't have anything artistic.
Speaker: Yeah, not really anything.
Speaker: I've been doing a lot of ministry stuff.
Speaker: What are you working on ministerially?
Speaker: We have a very busy month.
Speaker: We had like a VBS at our church and a kids club camp, which is kind of an all-day thing.
Speaker: And those were both happening.
Speaker: uh and like at the same time no no no okay it was like one was one week one was a separate week they're like let's do vbs which is an all-day thing and then another kid's thing that's an all-day thing the funny thing is vbs wasn't an all-day thing for us camp was an all-day thing vbs was just two hours oh was it like an evening it was an evening vbs yeah um so that's one thing i've been doing we did some art in there uh
Speaker: Tell us about that.
Speaker: What was that like?
Speaker: So we have a puppet and we had a puppet stage and the puppet stage was actually fire.
Speaker: The painting was super good.
Speaker: It was Western themed and the painting of the cowboy on the puppet stage was just really good.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: What did it tell you about life and existence?
Speaker: So here's the funny thing.
Speaker: Let's actually just go into this.
Speaker: Let's go into how has, I have a question too.
Speaker: How has art been?
Speaker: How has God been using art in your life recently?
Speaker: And I don't know if I'm going to be expanding the traditional view of art on this podcast.
Speaker: How dare you not add to this thousands of years of a discussion.
Speaker: But I've been playing a lot of Red Dead Redemption lately.
Speaker: Yes!
Speaker: And I don't know if we've had on this podcast the complicated and nuanced discussion of our video games art.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Here we go.
Speaker: To all my audience members that totally have never played a video game, we're going to talk about why video games are art today.
Speaker: I don't think we're going to talk about that, but I've been playing Red Dead Redemption.
Speaker: It was actually kind of the, this is weird, but riding around a video game landscape on a horse.
Speaker: I was like, man, heaven's going to be cool.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Well, it's just, they do such a...
Speaker: A good job.
Speaker: And I think it's a beautiful artistic representation of just the area of the United States that they're capturing in that game.
Speaker: And when you're riding through it, just the way they've rendered it, the way that they've...
Speaker: modeled it and built it and lit it and everything just feels so serene.
Speaker: Yeah, it wasn't even like any of the story elements of the game, which is a great game.
Speaker: The name Redemption is literally in the title.
Speaker: It is, it is.
Speaker: But it was literally just like riding around, like hunting in the game, where I'm like looking at the landscapes and it's like, man, heaven's going to be cool.
Speaker: Well, I can't, because I mean, I'm like...
Speaker: We're getting a new heaven and a new earth.
Speaker: And if this is what he came up with on his first go around, imagine when he like renews everything.
Speaker: I had a pastor in high school who would always say, you got to think about it this way.
Speaker: God created this heaven and this earth in seven days.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: He's been working on the current one for like 6,000 years or the new one for like 6,000 years.
Speaker: It's probably going to be better.
Speaker: That's all I'm saying.
Speaker: Yeah, that's going to be great.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: So I feel like there's a lot of different views on art in the Christian world.
Speaker: And I think, well, I feel like a lot of times...
Speaker: in evangelical circles, at least, the question sometimes just gets reduced to what should we partake in and what shouldn't we partake in.
Speaker: If you're on more like the... Conservative.
Speaker: Yeah, and like the... Oh, I'm blanking on the word.
Speaker: Moralistic kind of... Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Side of things, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, I don't know, I'm just, I want to unpack a little bit more with you.
Speaker: What are the different nuances to art for Christians, both the good and the bad?
Speaker: I thought we could start by just asking, is there value in art to Christians?
Speaker: And particularly, is there value to art that's not made by Christians for Christians?
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: I would say yes.
Speaker: My example, I don't know that the people at Rockstar Studios, they famously... The developers of Grand Theft Auto are Christian.
Speaker: I'm thinking they don't have an overtly Christian bent to them.
Speaker: But I think there is value of non-Christian art for Christians.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I had a... Actually, I have a co-worker.
Speaker: Had a co-worker.
Speaker: He's not there anymore.
Speaker: Who basically argued that, like, at their core, all stories are Christian.
Speaker: Unless they are, like, explicitly anti-Christian.
Speaker: I don't know that I necessarily agree with him.
Speaker: What was his, like, reasoning there?
Speaker: Essentially, his reasoning was pretty much all stories have the...
Speaker: rule line of embetterment, right?
Speaker: Not all of them, but the vast majority of stories involve a person becoming better or bettering a situation or bettering others.
Speaker: That's the vast majority of stories.
Speaker: I think we can agree on that point.
Speaker: And his whole point was like, if God is real and God is real and he is the real author of goodness and truth, any presentation of...
Speaker: a person becoming better is in some way them becoming more conforming to what God would want for the world.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So not like, he's not saying all Christian stories are explicitly Christian.
Speaker: But this idea that all stories... There's some reflective part of that in it.
Speaker: And I think he might even argue non-Christian stories and stories that have...
Speaker: downward arcs will reflect the reality of sin in the human condition, in the human life.
Speaker: So that in itself is...
Speaker: conforming to and confirming a Christian understanding of the world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, back to the main question is their value for art in a Christian's life.
Speaker: I think there definitely is.
Speaker: I think non-Christian or Christian art expresses beauty, uh, which is an almost irreducible thing about God, that God is inherently beautiful and humans, uh,
Speaker: will ultimately crave beauty in some sense.
Speaker: So you can make an argument.
Speaker: I think I'm taking this from Love, Justice, Beauty.
Speaker: I can't remember who the author of that is at this point.
Speaker: But he basically argues that all pursuits, all human pursuits of love, justice, and beauty are ultimately...
Speaker: pursuits that are somewhat Godward facing and just need to be redirected if they are towards the wrong thing and that they are things that are inherently
Speaker: we'll say God word in their motion, even if they're not being the person specifically to God.
Speaker: So I think that very thing can do it.
Speaker: I also think I actually looked it up before I got here.
Speaker: There's a, there's a couple of different times where Paul uses a non-
Speaker: Christian poet and Paul are in the book of John.
Speaker: The high priest says this thing about isn't it better for one man to die for the sins of the whole nation and John specifically as the narrator says.
Speaker: He didn't realize it, but God was prophesying through him.
Speaker: I love that part.
Speaker: About concerning the death of Jesus.
Speaker: So I think this idea that non-Christians can be used by God or non-Christian works can be used by God in the life of a believer or a non-believer to affect his will.
Speaker: is very clear and present.
Speaker: Like that poet, he's a good art example.
Speaker: A poet, in Paul's example, was not writing about, and to be fair, what he said isn't exactly all that nice because he's talking about how whoever it is are lazy cretins and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: God can use this message from a non-Christian to push forward a true and ultimately God-honoring thing.
Speaker: So I think there is God-honoring that can happen as a result of non-Christian art and Christian art.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That one feels fairly inherent, so it didn't feel like it was overly needing to be addressed.
Speaker: Is there a point where you would draw the line, where you would say at this point, I think that
Speaker: this is inherently harmful for a believer?
Speaker: Or do you think that that's more down to the individual?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I think there certainly is.
Speaker: I'll say for both the believer and the individual believer.
Speaker: So generically and individually.
Speaker: I think there is a real case of these things could...
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I think you could realistically argue that this is no longer some sense of like punching the pillow, getting her anger out therapy, and has become kind of a violent fantasization where this person is now intentionally engaging with their anger and their bitterness and in not a way that will lead to proper healing.
Speaker: Even if it leads to some closure, it's probably not...
Speaker: the God-honoring way to go about it.
Speaker: And the same thing could be said with sexual things or demonic things.
Speaker: I have a rule.
Speaker: I'm a big board game fan and video game fan, and I kind of have a soft rule that I will...
Speaker: I'm fine with violence in video games.
Speaker: Sex a little less so.
Speaker: But I have a pretty hard and fast rule that I don't work with demons, even in a fictional media.
Speaker: It's just not something I do.
Speaker: I'm fine with killing them.
Speaker: So Doom, you're like, yes.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: If we're talking like a HP Lovecraft game where I'm going and killing all these things...
Speaker: don't have a problem with that i have no problem with yeah doom going up killing demons but once i'm beginning to ally with them and work with them that's when i draw a line yeah just because it's something that i think even in fiction is not wise to do yeah because you don't know what you're messing with yeah right because demons are real um whereas like x-com no problem killing aliens or even partnering with aliens because aliens aren't real right
Speaker: Maybe I'll offend a bunch of people.
Speaker: But aliens, at least of that sort.
Speaker: I think the majority of my audience are big alien supporters.
Speaker: They're not real, right?
Speaker: So, like, that kind of stuff doesn't really matter.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But demons are real.
Speaker: So that kind of stuff I just think is unwise.
Speaker: So I think engaging – and with the individual kind of engaging, can an individual watch –
Speaker: a horror movie, right?
Speaker: Where there's kind of these graphic depictions of violence.
Speaker: I think it depends.
Speaker: I don't think it's inherently wrong, especially because for the most case, these graphic depictions of violence aren't viewed as a positive thing, right?
Speaker: In most horror movies, the killer's the bad guy.
Speaker: But I think for some people, it might just be kind of traumatizing and
Speaker: Fear inducing in a way that's, I don't think fear is inherently bad.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But we're not supposed to have a spirit of fear.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think this kind of, like if you had a really, I think there's a big difference between kind of the suspense driven, ah,
Speaker: You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker: And a genuine, like, this is causing me to be a more fearful person in my life.
Speaker: Like I'm walking down the street and now I don't trust anybody.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Like, I think if that's... Yeah, like, if that's happening, I think you're in a problem.
Speaker: If it's just you, like, hey, I think the suspense and the psychology is interesting, I think it's probably fine.
Speaker: I'm curious about your thoughts on...
Speaker: an artist making art that maybe in their motive, it's not a sinful thing.
Speaker: Like maybe it's in like a gray area.
Speaker: So like, I don't know what I think about is like a lot of classical paintings where there's just naked people out there, you know, and I don't think that,
Speaker: the artists were doing that with like pornographic intentions, but that the people could definitely look at that, you know?
Speaker: And so I'm curious about your thoughts ethically as an artist.
Speaker: Is that something that they have to think about is could my art cause somebody to sin, even if their motives in making it are pure and like God honoring and God pointed?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I think, I think there's a yes and a no.
Speaker: Um, because I think,
Speaker: We'll stick with that.
Speaker: The Renaissance artists who are all at least officially Christians and working for the church and that kind of stuff.
Speaker: I think in this case there's kind of a distinct difference between sexuality and nudity.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Though I think it could result in problems for people.
Speaker: I think there's a...
Speaker: to be had in kind of abstaining in these things, especially if you know your people or abstaining in how broadly you disseminate them.
Speaker: Um, in terms of like, this Renaissance painters couldn't have disseminated that.
Speaker: I mean, they're on the ceilings and walls of cathedrals that are public to view.
Speaker: Um, but like,
Speaker: I think there's a, and I think I understand, an artistic kind of reflex that everything I do in some sense need to be shared.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which I think I understand.
Speaker: But at the same time, if it's not healthy for the people you'd be sharing with, it's probably not wise or kind to do so.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think to some degree you have to say, hey, I am not in control of everyone.
Speaker: I'm in what they choose to look at and view.
Speaker: is on them.
Speaker: So it's a both end of, I think it shouldn't stop you from doing anything.
Speaker: Cause right.
Speaker: I think you might be able to, uh, make an argument that you almost can't do anything if someone might sin because of it, because you could have a photography session of a, an attractive woman who is fully clothed and some guy might have trouble with trouble with it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Um, but I think at the same time doing things that are closer to those, uh,
Speaker: I know people have problems with this.
Speaker: I know this specifically is a trigger for many people or even a few people is where you kind of have to have wisdom on.
Speaker: Should I do it?
Speaker: And if I do it, should I, how widely should I spread it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: What are your thoughts on, we're kind of, I feel like we're kind of looking at the negative side.
Speaker: I want to switch to the positive side in a minute here, but idolatry and art.
Speaker: Um, cause I know I definitely, so I've got like sort of this dual call to art and ministry and I've always felt God never letting me fully commit to one or the other, but art especially, I always feel that danger of man, I could really just make this my everything and make it the main thing.
Speaker: But I also know that that has been used at times for people to like in an unhealthy or more toxic church environment to like prevent them from even engaging in that.
Speaker: What are your thoughts on
Speaker: art as idolatry um just brought like the the being a part of art i mean yeah can art be a source of idolatry yes uh that's non-debatable right because virtually anything can be a source of idolatry putting anything before god is idolatry so anything can be anything uh
Speaker: I'll get back to like the iconoclasm and I can is icons question.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: In a bit, but I think there's a, I think, so I think there is a challenge for it.
Speaker: And I think a lot of it comes down to identity.
Speaker: Um, in the sense of, are you in your mind?
Speaker: If you're a Christian artist, are you a Christian artist?
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Or are you an artist who is a Christian?
Speaker: In the sense of, is your Christianity, your commitment, your identity in Christ?
Speaker: Is that the first thing?
Speaker: Is that the first thing?
Speaker: Does that come over your artisticness?
Speaker: Or is it, I'm an artist first and foremost, and then that...
Speaker: I am also a Christian.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But essentially the point here is like you have to understand your identity in Christ and the, if these two things come into conflict, right?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Hey, I want to work on this project.
Speaker: I feel like I should do this, but I feel like it's not moral.
Speaker: Do you do it or do you not?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you're not saying, because I know, like, especially in the music world, there's the, like, differentiation of, oh, I'm a Christian musician, or I'm a musical artist who is also a Christian, and that's present in my works.
Speaker: But you're not saying...
Speaker: Oh, you have to specifically do Christian art.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: We're not saying every painting you have to be is a crucifix and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: This is my 80th crucifix.
Speaker: Yeah, no, no, no.
Speaker: The last variation I think I can do.
Speaker: I mean, if you want to do a crucifix, one, one art prize, right?
Speaker: That can be beautiful.
Speaker: But I think there's a real reality of, yeah, not everything you have to do needs to be a painting of Paul or on the conference, you never ever do a painting of Jesus.
Speaker: We'll get into the...
Speaker: Might get into that later.
Speaker: But I think there's a... Yeah, so I'm not saying everything you need to do needs to be Christian explicitly in the artwork.
Speaker: But everything needs to be submitted.
Speaker: Everything needs to be submitted to that Christian identity of... Yeah, it's not is this... Will someone see this drawing and immediately come to Christ?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: But is there...
Speaker: a reality of will people look at the body of the art in each individual art piece and be drawn closer to God?
Speaker: Um, even in a non-specific way, right?
Speaker: I mean, a beautiful, I mean, it's what I was talking about.
Speaker: Depictions of nature are not, there is nothing inherently Christian about going out and painting a mountainside.
Speaker: Uh, but there's also nothing that would be offensive to God to it.
Speaker: As long as,
Speaker: it's submitting to... Th is is the flip side of everything could be, right?
Speaker: Everything could be idolatrous of... Even a painting of Jesus could be idolatrous if you're doing it for the purpose of showing off your own skills as a painter and getting glory to yourself.
Speaker: If you've heard the book The Great Divorce by C.S.
Speaker: Lewis, there's a whole discussion in that between two artists where one artist is discussing...
Speaker: Hey, so if you don't know the book, this is probably important.
Speaker: It's about people in heaven.
Speaker: They're in heaven.
Speaker: Some of them are...
Speaker: heaven dwellers will say they belong in heaven.
Speaker: Some of them are not, but they've been invited essentially there to look around.
Speaker: And they meet people that they know while they're there.
Speaker: And one guy is an artist and he has a colleague.
Speaker: And the guy who's there visiting is like, man, I really love to paint this country.
Speaker: The other guy's like, great, that's fantastic, but why?
Speaker: And he was like, well, I really just want to show off and examine the colors.
Speaker: And he's like, that's the wrong reason.
Speaker: Um, and he's like, there's nothing against paint.
Speaker: Like we have paint up here.
Speaker: You can paint.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Uh, but is the, the reason to ultimately glorify God?
Speaker: I don't think he says that that explicitly in the book, but is that it?
Speaker: Or is it?
Speaker: Cause we're doing that scene in the acting class.
Speaker: I think he said something about like the, the, the paintings and everything that you did was really just meant to be like a reflection and a like preview to what's,
Speaker: coming and like a window that God has seen through.
Speaker: So at one point they're talking about painting and he's like, well, you're kind of painting there's no need for here because everything, like you originally painted scenes with light and this kind of stuff and everything you were painting back then is, was just a kind of picture of what's actually here.
Speaker: So the painting that you've done is irrelevant.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And you have to change how you do these kind of things.
Speaker: So like,
Speaker: So for the artist, it's almost, well, for anybody, I would say it's,
Speaker: running through your own Abraham and Isaac scenario of if God tells you there's a point to move on from this.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Are you willing to do that?
Speaker: Not that he necessarily will, because he probably designed you with that in mind, but if he does at some point, are you willing to?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big it.
Speaker: I think I'll move on now.
Speaker: I think we've covered that.
Speaker: I want to move on to the kind of icon question.
Speaker: So just to explain that to anybody in the audience that doesn't know the term, excuse me,
Speaker: There are some theological circles.
Speaker: I don't know which specific denominations do and don't believe it, but there's a theological view that depicting the divine, like God or Christ, um...
Speaker: And like sometimes saints and things like that is in and of itself idolatrous or not right because you might be worshiping that thing instead of God.
Speaker: So what are your thoughts on all of that?
Speaker: So when it comes to idolatry in art, we'll go with icons and discuss this.
Speaker: First thing I want to say is.
Speaker: they're only talking about a certain type of art, right?
Speaker: Because music has been consistently a part of the church since the early church.
Speaker: People have maybe disagreed on, are you allowed to use electric guitars or that kind of stuff?
Speaker: No one, as far as I'm aware, has ever said...
Speaker: the church shouldn't have music because that's idolatrous.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It's art.
Speaker: I mean, it's literally in the text of praising God with spiritual songs and Psalms and this kind of like, that is a non issue.
Speaker: Well, maybe not a non issue, but a, it is,
Speaker: provable and non-debatable that the church throughout history has always used music.
Speaker: So when we're talking art, especially with icons, we're specifically talking about paintings and that kind of medium, sometimes sculptures, that normally depict Jesus.
Speaker: There's kind of two sides to this.
Speaker: Jesus or saints.
Speaker: That could be more recent saints or it could be like the Apostle Paul is a saint in the
Speaker: We'll not get into what saints means, but in the icon understanding of saints, they're talking about the classical saints.
Speaker: People that they have sainted, not saints as the general term for the church.
Speaker: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: I'll take this in two slides.
Speaker: I think there's a... Some people... I understand it.
Speaker: I don't agree with it.
Speaker: But I understand the viewpoint that say, hey, you shouldn't make an image of Jesus.
Speaker: And I think with this one, it tends to be less we're concerned about you worshiping this thing.
Speaker: And it tends to be, hey, the second commandment says you're not supposed to make a graven image of God.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I understand that viewpoint and some people hold it and I don't think they're in the wrong for holding it.
Speaker: I do disagree with them.
Speaker: And the reason I disagree with them is in the Old Testament.
Speaker: We have some anthropomorphic depictions of God, right?
Speaker: We have God having hands or God having a head or whatever.
Speaker: And he describes himself in those terms.
Speaker: He describes himself in those terms.
Speaker: But God, those are metaphors and terminologies, right?
Speaker: Or they become real when God has a theophany.
Speaker: That's when God comes to earth in the image of a person.
Speaker: For a wrestling match.
Speaker: For a wrestling match or to have a talk with Abraham.
Speaker: He does it a couple times in the fiery furnace with Shredder K. and Abednego.
Speaker: But those are not the actual form of God.
Speaker: That is God just kind of putting on a human suit, right?
Speaker: The difference with Jesus, and why I think personally it's acceptable and okay to make pictures of Jesus...
Speaker: is we didn't make Jesus in the image of man when Jesus came to earth.
Speaker: God did.
Speaker: God was the one who... God, the Father, we'll say, and God, the Son.
Speaker: God, the Son, comes into Mary as a virgin, is born as a real human.
Speaker: So when I depict Jesus in a drawing or in a painting, I am not putting onto God characteristics that he doesn't have.
Speaker: um now maybe if you want if someone wanted to say you shouldn't draw god the father because you don't have a characteristic i think i could hear an argument for that i might even agree with them but with jesus the implication that jesus has legs and hands and a head and a face isn't a depiction of jesus it's a historical fact of jesus and now i don't know what that looks like and we can have some argument and some discussion on
Speaker: Should we think about kind of race and features and that kind of stuff?
Speaker: How important is that?
Speaker: How important is that?
Speaker: And how do we think about that?
Speaker: And how do we, how do those things teach and how do we teach with those things is a, is another discussion.
Speaker: But the idea that I can draw a picture of Jesus as a human isn't.
Speaker: attributing any attributes to God that he doesn't actually have.
Speaker: Because God, the second person in the Trinity, God the Son, actually is a human.
Speaker: He came to earth as an actual human.
Speaker: He's still an actual human now.
Speaker: So when I depict Jesus with a body, that is not taking an earthly thing and applying it to God.
Speaker: That is taking a thing that God has done and depicting it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Now I want to ask you...
Speaker: a specific question adjacent to that as an actor who's played Jesus before.
Speaker: Every time I think, because I'm with you, I think that there's nothing inherently wrong with that depicting Christ artistically.
Speaker: But acting, playing the character...
Speaker: I'm like, is that a little more high stakes?
Speaker: Because the actor's job is to interpret what the script is.
Speaker: And so I am interpreting and kind of adding my understanding of
Speaker: and emotion to Jesus in that sense?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I'm just curious about your thoughts on the theological ethics of that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think it is another depiction of Jesus, right?
Speaker: And again, I think we're in the clear here because Jesus...
Speaker: Actually has a body and actually does.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Has done things.
Speaker: Still has a body.
Speaker: Crazily.
Speaker: Who?
Speaker: Jesus.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Still has a body.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Currently has a body and will always have a body.
Speaker: A human physical body.
Speaker: So I think in these depictions.
Speaker: I think inherently it's not wrong.
Speaker: You're never going to be a perfect depiction of Jesus.
Speaker: Neither is anyone else.
Speaker: For the inherent fact that you're sinful and Jesus is not.
Speaker: So I think... I like to actually determine you said high stakes because it kind of goes with the...
Speaker: teaching in a different form.
Speaker: So scripture is pretty clear that teachers, those who regularly teach the church, are held to a higher standard in their teaching because their ideas about Jesus are no longer just their own, but they're shaping other people's understanding of Jesus.
Speaker: So if I have a wrong depiction of Jesus personally, that's not great, but it's not necessarily going to affect anyone else.
Speaker: If I, as a pastor, get up and preach wrongly about Jesus, now I have 100 people who have a wrong understanding of Jesus because of something I've said.
Speaker: I think acting can be the same way.
Speaker: I think it's less high stakes because you are not teaching in the same capacity that Scripture is talking about in that passage.
Speaker: But people might still like... Because I've had conversations where people have been like...
Speaker: the way that you played that character is now like, uh, like has like,
Speaker: it's part of their sort of the way they've started to view Christ just because that was a performance they saw and things impacted them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, so now moving forward, they like see how that connects to scripture, but then it's like, is my performance bearing the weight of some of their Christiological interpretation?
Speaker: I can give an example, step away from Jesus for a second.
Speaker: I saw wicked with Megan down in Dallas, my wife, uh, down in Dallas, uh,
Speaker: when it was a traveling show, and it was not the original cast, right?
Speaker: And in my mind, I had never seen it before.
Speaker: I'd never listened to the music.
Speaker: I mean, I listened to a few of the songs, but I listened to most of it.
Speaker: I had no idea what the show was.
Speaker: I knew the basic premise, but I didn't know what actually happened.
Speaker: And in my mind, those characters, especially the Alphaba, is, quote, unquote, like, in my mind, that's the way she is correctly played.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then I go and listen to...
Speaker: other versions or watch other versions.
Speaker: And in my mind, these other versions where they differ from the alpha I first saw, they're incorrect.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Even though...
Speaker: Uh, like I know from the bulk body, there's one part of the alphabet that I think is still correct in my mind.
Speaker: I know based on all the other comparisons, she's the one that is the abnormal.
Speaker: Like the thing she did was different than everyone else.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: In my mind, she's still right and they're still wrong.
Speaker: Uh, so you have to be really careful with this depiction, with this teaching, because if someone gets an understanding of Jesus from your depiction, that's inaccurate.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: that can be something they have to work through and be difficult.
Speaker: And I think it varies because you've played Jesus twice?
Speaker: Only once.
Speaker: Only once.
Speaker: Only once.
Speaker: So we'll go with that because you played him Cotton Patch.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Cotton Patch is a little bit distinct because I think the further you step away from a
Speaker: Purely scriptural... In a purely intended to be kind of a one-for-one thing, the more I would hope an audience member will understand... That it's an interpretive lens.
Speaker: That it's an interpretive lens and a difference.
Speaker: So like, right, Jesus in Cotton Patch Gospel... Is a white dude in the South.
Speaker: He's a white dude in South America, right?
Speaker: And I think most Christians will correctly understand it, and that won't shape anything.
Speaker: Like, if Jesus in your mind speaks in a Southern accent because you heard them with Cotton Patch, I think that's more...
Speaker: Gosh, I hope not.
Speaker: I think that's more on you not understanding storytelling, allegory, than it's on the person depicting Jesus.
Speaker: When you get something closer to, say, Jonathan Rumi in The Chosen, he is depicting Jesus as kind of well as he can, as Jesus quote-unquote was, right?
Speaker: He's walking around a model of the Israelite cities.
Speaker: He's doing all these kind of things.
Speaker: And for that kind of role, the closer it is, the kind of less...
Speaker: I'll say narrative protection you have.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: In that you really want to get it kind of tight because you can get more of those wrong things in and less of it can be explained by, well, this is kind of the story.
Speaker: Like Jesus, again, Cotton Patchy Castle, Jesus wasn't actually lynched.
Speaker: And the story is lynched because it makes sense.
Speaker: In the context of that story.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I think most audience members will correctly understand what is going on.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: If Jesus in The Chosen was lynched... Then that would be a problem.
Speaker: It's a big problem because it's meant to be a much more realistic depiction.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I feel like that might almost be a burden that... I feel like I'm getting really niche now with storytelling and theater and stuff.
Speaker: But I feel like that's a burden that almost... Especially the director, but the whole...
Speaker: cast has.
Speaker: Like it's not just the person playing Jesus who's carrying that because an audience member could see a reaction to Jesus from an audience member and then infer something about Jesus's character that then maybe affects how they're viewing him in reality.
Speaker: And so I feel like it's almost like a group effort to make sure you're as faithful as you can be and following God's leading in that because you're never going to 100% get there.
Speaker: And again, in the narrative format that you're working with, I think there is...
Speaker: And obviously wrong thing if you're playing Jesus, depicting Jesus.
Speaker: If you intentionally depict Jesus in an inaccurate way, that's not just due to the storytelling bent of it.
Speaker: But I can't remember what the show is.
Speaker: There's currently a show where Jesus and disciples are all gay or whatever.
Speaker: This is an intentional distortion.
Speaker: and is wrong, it would be wrong to act in because you're participating in it, and it was wrong to write because it's an intentional distortion.
Speaker: So if you did a story where Jesus was violently assaulting people, this is no longer a narrative change of setting.
Speaker: I mean, this is kind of what the whole Chronicles of Narnia was, right?
Speaker: It was a big narrative change.
Speaker: If Aslan had been a violent murderer, the Narnia books would not be a good... Allegory.
Speaker: I mean, we'll discuss.
Speaker: We won't discuss, but I don't think the Narnia books are allegory.
Speaker: I want to put that out officially.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: It wouldn't be a good kind of representation of Jesus if he had him doing things that Jesus wouldn't do even in another setting.
Speaker: Again, when you have Jesus wearing your word like a tie-dye tee or whatever in that show, that's fine because that is taking something that, again, it's just transporting what if Jesus was in another setting?
Speaker: What do we think he would do?
Speaker: Wearing modern-day clothing is fine in a modern-day setting because Jesus wore modern-day clothing of his day.
Speaker: We don't think that Jesus was wearing anything particularly strange.
Speaker: It's more just like as an actor trying to make sure the decisions you're making on stage and how you're playing it is as faithful as you can be.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Are you doing it in good faith?
Speaker: Are you genuinely trying to be faithful?
Speaker: Or are you, once you intentionally distort, you're in a bad place?
Speaker: And going back to our earlier discussion, even if you are being as faithful as you can, somebody might get something weird from it.
Speaker: But then at that point, you've done everything that you can to be faithful to God and follow his leading in that.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: There's only half the discussion on icons.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: The other half has to do with depictions of saints, saints, holy people, stories from the Bible, that kind of stuff.
Speaker: Is there a danger of those?
Speaker: Are those a problem?
Speaker: So I think...
Speaker: Like all things, like I said, there can be a danger of idolatry.
Speaker: It could be the case that people could look at St.
Speaker: Paul.
Speaker: And some of this comes down to your beliefs on whether or not you should pray to saints and stuff, which we won't discuss here.
Speaker: It's just not the space.
Speaker: But this could lead to a worship of a sainted person rather than Jesus.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I don't think those things are inherently the case.
Speaker: I don't think icons are wrong.
Speaker: I don't know if we h ave a question about this later on.
Speaker: But there is a reality of history that says for a lot of the Middle Ages, art, icons, stained glass, mosaics, were all super important for teaching the Bible because you had...
Speaker: It was like a pictorial tradition.
Speaker: Yes, you had illiterate people or weakly literate people who could read the Bible, let alone the fact that for a long time the Bible was kept in Latin, so an average English farmer couldn't read it, even if he could read.
Speaker: Being able to look at...
Speaker: Yeah, a pictorial tradition.
Speaker: So being able to look at a picture of Jesus wrestling God helped him to know about the story and learn about the story and ask about the story.
Speaker: And same thing with people throughout church history.
Speaker: So if you saw a painting of St.
Speaker: Augustine.
Speaker: uh you'd be able to talk to your bishop about who is this guy why is he up here what did he do and you can learn about some of that history and theology yeah of that so i think those things could be really useful could they lead to idolatry of course they could lead to idolatry um but i think they're not inherent and have to be the question is more about how they're used and how do we teach their what they do and what the value of them is more than inherently just strike them and get rid of them yeah
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: I'm going to jump a couple questions here because a conversation I'm really keen on having with you is about popular art.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Because you and I are both huge fans of comic book films and graphic novels and video games and fantasy and sci-fi and all that.
Speaker: And I think I'm aware of...
Speaker: Well, in general, in our culture, I think there can kind of be just a looking down on those as like almost childish and trivial.
Speaker: But then I think in some Christian circles, there can be a view of those as like, well, that's just popcorn entertainment.
Speaker: It doesn't really have any eternal value, which I would disagree with.
Speaker: But I'm just curious on your thoughts on when it's something that's just like an Avengers movie.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, yeah, that's popcorn entertainment, but does that have value for a believer?
Speaker: And if so, what?
Speaker: What's the importance of this sort of just popular entertainment?
Speaker: So I think there's a number of things I could say.
Speaker: uh i think entertainment itself is not wrong um an overindulgence in entertainment i think is wrong yeah um but entertainment the idea of having fun isn't wrong um these things so i'll separate into two things i think these things again we'll go to the idea of
Speaker: storytelling generally works to the promotion of a person.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Um, and well, the pro I'll say the embeddermint of a person.
Speaker: So I think you can see in these, most of these popular things, a reality of the value of good things which have their basis ultimately in God, like courage, like maturity, like patience.
Speaker: like wisdom-like learning.
Speaker: And I think you can see in these things of value in that.
Speaker: I think a danger can come in that most of these are going to portray that in a purely humanistic light.
Speaker: Doing it on your own.
Speaker: Because they want to sell as much as they can.
Speaker: Yeah, right, because they're not marketing to a Christian audience exclusively.
Speaker: But I think there's a reality of seeing those things
Speaker: as their value, but also identifying where they teach wrong.
Speaker: And that's the next thing I'll point out.
Speaker: I think a real value of popular media is it, popular media is both a lens and a driver of cultural understanding and cultural truth of, if you look at the popular media, you can understand better the
Speaker: thoughts of the culture as a whole on a topic.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So trying to give an example that's not like bigly inflammatory, but I don't know.
Speaker: Pop music.
Speaker: Who's a popular musician?
Speaker: Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift.
Speaker: I don't know if that works for sure.
Speaker: Taylor Swift gives us this, right.
Speaker: kind of view of relationships and how they kind of work, which I'm not even going to say is necessarily right or wrong.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That'd be a different discussion.
Speaker: But by examining this, we can kind of look at how the culture views these things.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I think there's some raw depictions in there, too, where you can, like, see that and be like, oh, this maybe is not, like, an ideal to tout, but there is, like, a really...
Speaker: Even though it's all very popular art, there is still kind of a real raw examination of at least her love life.
Speaker: Yeah, and again, it's an examination of what's really happening.
Speaker: And this is why, so, I don't generally like...
Speaker: generally like stories especially of established characters that are like backstories on the bad guys yeah um like i said i do like wicked so i do like some of these but i feel for the most part of what these do is try to not
Speaker: justify but explain evil and in some ways mitigate evil yeah um and i think we lose something if we if if you follow this popular art and i think this is again a generally culture thing that people kind of believe is that any evil can be
Speaker: explained away if you go back far enough of, hey, this guy was a big jerk, but his dad was abusive, and his dad was abusive because his dad was absent because he got killed by a murderer, and the murderer was angry because his dad was... Hey, the big problem with that is it has to... Someone has to be evil in that.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: In that... It started somewhere.
Speaker: Yeah, it started somewhere.
Speaker: Eventually, you'll just get back to Satan and be like, oh.
Speaker: And I think you also lose the reality of... And again, I don't think people are always doing this, but like...
Speaker: explaining, I think in some people's mind, explaining evil partially justifies evil.
Speaker: So you can say, you know,
Speaker: whoever this character is.
Speaker: Joker.
Speaker: Joker, sure.
Speaker: I haven't seen the movie.
Speaker: Or Cruella de Vil.
Speaker: Cruella de Vil.
Speaker: We'll go with any of these people.
Speaker: What they did was wrong, but they did it because, and I think in a lot of people's minds, that but they did it because take some of the burden of the evil off of that person.
Speaker: And I think it shouldn't.
Speaker: I think it almost comes from the hyper subjectivity of where we are today, where it's like,
Speaker: at least here in America, for the most part, oh, I shouldn't say for the most part, but a lot of people in the artistic world very strongly believe whatever you believe is true, and that's your truth.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a generally held, a widely if not generally held belief.
Speaker: Whatever you believe, at least on many issues, is true.
Speaker: And I think it does come from that of
Speaker: But I think we see it, and I think there is a value in saying, no, these things are, even if they're justified, not justified, even if they're explained, they're still wrong.
Speaker: And so, like, I'll go to a very great non-Christian but
Speaker: really is not Christian's story, which is Les Mis.
Speaker: I genuinely struggle to believe that Victor Hugo was an atheist.
Speaker: Me too.
Speaker: Given the various stories he writes and how he writes and how he kind of works.
Speaker: But Jean Valjean, right, did something wrong.
Speaker: And he has a reason for it.
Speaker: He broke into a house and stole some bread.
Speaker: And there is a reason that he did it.
Speaker: He had to feed his sister's son.
Speaker: There is a reason behind it.
Speaker: that doesn't make it a morally acceptable or morally ambiguous action it's still wrong for him to have done but we see in this he's treated wrongly he's given way too long of prison sentence that's the whole premise of the story right but we see from this a growth out of
Speaker: a wrongness into a rightness and a restoration because he's given forgiveness at the start of the story by the bishop and then ultimately by Christ.
Speaker: I think we can discuss.
Speaker: I think most people will accept that John Bel.
Speaker: John is a Christian.
Speaker: It's pretty courted what he does.
Speaker: He does have a whole song where he prays.
Speaker: Yeah, by the bishop and then by Christ.
Speaker: I think we can agree that he becomes a Christian.
Speaker: And it leads into a life that's changed to the point where he lets Javert go.
Speaker: Sorry, spoilers on Les Mis if you haven't seen it.
Speaker: It's been out for like 100 years, so I don't feel that bad.
Speaker: But he could have easily been...
Speaker: justified or explained in a retaliation against Javert because he put him in prison, he was brutal, Tormund, then he followed him for decades just for essentially doing a thing that, again, was wrong but was so minor that it can't possibly justify this response.
Speaker: And he has genuinely a full opportunity to just do whatever revenge he wants.
Speaker: And he lets him go and he shows him mercy and I think that
Speaker: is a genuine growth of character that is different from simply explaining if he had simply shot him in the face.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You really have to call into question any growth he's had.
Speaker: And again, it would be explainable and understandable, but it wouldn't mitigate that it was a wrong thing to do.
Speaker: And it would really make you think, hey, after all this good, he's still willing to do this thing.
Speaker: Has he really grown at all?
Speaker: So I think that,
Speaker: Again, that all has to do with the idea that popular media gives you kind of a lens into the culture.
Speaker: And then I think the Lord can do whatever he wants.
Speaker: So the Lord can use any media to his benefit.
Speaker: And the Lord can use a person.
Speaker: Like I will tell people.
Speaker: The jump off point from talking about Harry Potter to talking about Jesus is not a high dive.
Speaker: There are the story beats and kind of moral themes in Harry Potter lead to, I can lead that into a natural discussion about Christ.
Speaker: so easily.
Speaker: I mean, I have said before, maybe to the infurient of big fans of Lewis.
Speaker: I'm a big fan of Lewis.
Speaker: But I think Harry Potter is a clearer Christ story than Narnia.
Speaker: I think there are...
Speaker: arguably more allegorical elements in Harry Potter than, than art.
Speaker: Like, but I think these kinds of things, the Lord can use this, even if it's not intended as a teaching point for, I mean, like I said at the very start,
Speaker: Red Dead Redemption was not meant to inspire people about the coming beauty of heaven.
Speaker: It just wasn't.
Speaker: I can say that with confidence.
Speaker: But the Lord used it in that way.
Speaker: Could have used something else.
Speaker: Sure, of course you could have used something else.
Speaker: I was actually kayaking out in nature like a week before, and the Lord did the same thing, right?
Speaker: But the point is that he did use that art, and non-Christian art, in a way that was...
Speaker: useful and god-leading in my life.
Speaker: I think that's an interesting jumping-off point for the last question I'll ask before we try and wrap things up here.
Speaker: I, at least personally...
Speaker: I have found God has kind of used art to nudge me in ways for spiritual formation, either in the act of creating art or seeing something like there's a moment in an Avengers movie that just constantly in my brain is like, this is an image in my mind of good faith in God.
Speaker: Which one?
Speaker: When Cap stares down Thanos.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I'm going to get to a geeky thing here, but Captain America is established in the first Avengers movie to be a Christian, and then he never talks about it again.
Speaker: Or at least having some Christian values.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, he at least says that he believes in one God.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So he's either a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian.
Speaker: That's a monotheist of some kind.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Presumably given that he's from the 1930s.
Speaker: Most likely a Christian.
Speaker: Most likely we can say he's sometimes a Christian.
Speaker: And I think that's expanded on in the comics too.
Speaker: But then they like never touch on that again except for a joke in the second Avengers movie.
Speaker: But then when I'm watching Avengers Endgame, which they're like fighting this villain that's wiped out the universe basically.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: They've managed to get the universe back, but now they're facing him down again.
Speaker: And he's like, this time I'm going to just destroy this universe and start a new universe.
Speaker: So Captain America has never seen anybody more powerful than this guy.
Speaker: And then he gets totally beat up.
Speaker: Yeah, sure.
Speaker: And he's like, well, I'm going to just stand up and I'm just going to walk towards Thanos.
Speaker: And there's a whole army here.
Speaker: And in my brain, it just made the jump to, oh, he's doing that because he knows there's something that is more powerful than Thanos.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Anyways, so I feel like art can be used to help strengthen your faith or help grow you towards Christ and God, but I'm curious about your thoughts on that and if that's ever happened to you.
Speaker: I mean, absolutely.
Speaker: Let's go with... Absolutely, God can use art to add...
Speaker: To lead you to him.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I'll point to, like I said, we're going to keep back to it.
Speaker: I'm a big C.S.
Speaker: Lewis fan.
Speaker: Great Divorce, which I mentioned earlier, is my favorite book.
Speaker: No qualifiers.
Speaker: And it's Lewis's art, and many others, I'll just stick with Lewis because I've been reading Lewis, Nine Joy Lewis, genuinely helps me think about and understand that.
Speaker: things in the christian life better yeah um now lewis is easier because he's intended to right right the great divorce is in is intended to make you think about heaven not like red dead redemption which was not intended that's what the book is about right the book is about examining kind of what do we think heaven is like and
Speaker: kind of what misconceptions would a unsaved person have about heaven and hell and all these kind of that's the point of the book yeah but it does a good job at that point and it does help me think about those things as it's going i think other mediums can do the same thing um actually this is why we get i think
Speaker: depictions from popular media in sermons.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Sermon illustrations are often, not always, I mean, not always, obviously, but you often will hear, hey, it was in church this week, or two weeks ago, at my church, he referenced a Transformers movie.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: And he referenced how in the newer Transformers movie, there is a Transformer god, he's called a god, who has to consume planets, and he was talking about how this is not a true depiction of god because...
Speaker: The very fact that he has to consume means he's not a true guy.
Speaker: But I think there's a... The one I thought of recently is there's an Office episode where...
Speaker: Michael burns his foot and then Dwight gets a concussion.
Speaker: My brother is going to be just so happy for you to expand on the value of the office.
Speaker: So the actual thing I was thinking of is they go to the hospital.
Speaker: Michael has a burn on his foot.
Speaker: Dwight has a concussion and the doctor's looking at Dwight.
Speaker: And at one point, Michael asked the doctor, he goes, so what's more dangerous, a foot injury or a head injury?
Speaker: And the doctor goes, a head injury.
Speaker: And it actually made me think, so this is going somewhere.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It made me think is kind of a model of if we go all the way back to Genesis three in the curse on the, on the snake, when God is cursing the snake and depending on your viewpoint, Satan.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: He says, you will strike his heel and he will crush your head.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And people have rightly pointed out those are the same words.
Speaker: The word for strike the heel and crush the head, same word in Hebrew.
Speaker: And some people I know have argued this to say essentially this just means they're going to fight.
Speaker: But again, as the office points out, a head injury...
Speaker: is a bigger deal than a foot injury.
Speaker: So the fact that the descendant of Eve, ultimately Jesus, is going to strike the head while his heel is getting struck, he wins.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: If someone...
Speaker: Just the reality.
Speaker: If you injure someone's head and they injure your foot, you won the fight.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I was actually thinking about this.
Speaker: In the office, unknowingly, makes that exact point, right?
Speaker: Is that Christ, in this Genesis 3 passage, is declaring the victory of Christ.
Speaker: Not because Christ won't get injured at all.
Speaker: Obviously, Christ dies.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's a pretty big injury.
Speaker: That's a pretty big injury.
Speaker: He had to press the respond button.
Speaker: As big as death is, it's actually not as big of an injury as Satan gets.
Speaker: Because Satan gets irrevocably defeated.
Speaker: Whereas Christ is back up and at him in three days.
Speaker: But that point, again, is inadvertently made from The Office.
Speaker: And I think you can take that very much not intended.
Speaker: I'm certain that when they were writing that episode of The Office, they were not thinking about how it related to...
Speaker: the cursing of the snake in Genesis 3 and the prophecy about Jesus.
Speaker: I'm certain that was not on their mind, but it is there.
Speaker: And being able to look at narrative and pictures and images and being able to think through how can God use this.
Speaker: And again, depictions of...
Speaker: courage of redemption that's a big old throwback to the to the start redemption yeah uh which is a story about redemption it is a story about reception and not explicitly christian redemption even but this i think you might be able to make a point uh but but uh but these idea of the
Speaker: These whole stories actually depict in a lot of ways, and I think th is is kind of what my friend is going back to with his all Christians are story, is the nature that people on their own are not good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And again, a lot of these stories will go through the idea of improvement.
Speaker: by one's own work, by one's own self.
Speaker: But I think again, this idea that people are not good and need to become better is a very inherently Christian idea.
Speaker: Again, not on your own work in Christianity, but on we are not good and we need Christ because we're not good.
Speaker: I think, I think those narrative points are not totally divorced, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: This has been a great discussion.
Speaker: I would love to keep going, but we are at an hour, so we should wind it to a close.
Speaker: I have one more question for you before we leave.
Speaker: If you could recommend a resource to a Christian artist who's either wanting to deepen their spiritual life or grow as an artist or both, what's one or a couple resources that you would recommend them to look into?
Speaker: So one thing I would do genuinely is look into the work and life, but especially the work of other Christian artists who have come before you.
Speaker: So again, I'll just stick with C.S.
Speaker: Lewis.
Speaker: C.S.
Speaker: Lewis was genuinely a believer in Christ and genuinely made great literature and great narrative art.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And just kind of seeing how... And it's an incredible life story.
Speaker: But seeing how he... And had a great community of artists that he was a part of.
Speaker: And a great community.
Speaker: Yeah, the Inklings are there, right?
Speaker: Most of them are Christians.
Speaker: And being able to look in those, so maybe we can expand that to Tolkien and Barfoot and that kind of stuff, and say, hey, look at what they did in their art.
Speaker: What they did, what they didn't do, and what they did in their life.
Speaker: And kind of think about...
Speaker: how does this inform what I would do?
Speaker: And then we can go all the way back.
Speaker: If you really want to get it, get the Psalms.
Speaker: Those are poems, man.
Speaker: Those are songs.
Speaker: That's art in the Bible.
Speaker: And again, looking at what is it driving it?
Speaker: And those are all explicitly,
Speaker: honoring God or at least talking with God.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Uh, we can talk about, there are points where he's just like, can you just kill my enemies?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: There are imprecatory Psalms and even those teach a lot.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: But looking at Christian artists life and how they interacted with it and how they interacted with other non-Christian art.
Speaker: Um, and looking at, Hey, here are,
Speaker: Again, this doesn't have to be Tolkien.
Speaker: You can go back and look at medieval painters.
Speaker: George MacDonald.
Speaker: George MacDonald.
Speaker: You can talk at... I'm also thinking of Bach, right?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Bach was a believer.
Speaker: A lot of composers.
Speaker: A lot of composers in that period.
Speaker: A lot of... And again, maybe this even goes to your...
Speaker: your type of art that you tend to work in.
Speaker: Right, so it could be Renaissance painters.
Speaker: Yeah, why is it that these people did the things they did and didn't do the things they did?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And even modern day, right?
Speaker: They're like... Heck, you can find interviews with Jonathan Rumi or...
Speaker: I know some people might not love his acting, but Kirk Cameron.
Speaker: And look at why do they do what they do and why don't they do it.
Speaker: Not just what is it that they do, but especially their thought process on what leads me to...
Speaker: do this and not do this of like again chronicles narnia was uh an experiment in what if i created a fictional world and then assume jesus also came to that world how would it be the same and how would it be different and that even thinking i think helped lewis explore what he believed about jesus right um
Speaker: And it's different.
Speaker: It's different than the biblical story because in Chronicles of Narnia, Aslan comes to Narnia all the time.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: He comes a bunch of times.
Speaker: And that's different than the biblical story.
Speaker: But it also helps him think about what are the...
Speaker: things I believe about the character of Jesus and what are the things I believe about the narrative of these things and how they go on and how does it look totally different?
Speaker: Allegory in Narnia, if you want to hold to it, really breaks down in later books because what is the silver chair?
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Depicting other than the reality of sin and possession in this kind of stuff.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I've always looked at it as less.
Speaker: I know there's the planet Narnia theory, too, but I feel like he just.
Speaker: I hold the planet Narnia.
Speaker: I think there's I haven't like done a lot of deep research.
Speaker: I think it makes sense from the little I've heard.
Speaker: But I like the idea that it seems like with each book, he was like, what's a different aspect of like spiritual truth that I can really highlight and focus?
Speaker: Yeah, right.
Speaker: So I think he's highlighting, I will not argue for a second, he's not using, A, Jesus as a model for Aslan.
Speaker: I don't think the story as a whole is allegorical, but that character.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I think, I just finished Prince Caspian.
Speaker: If you can read the end of Prince Caspian and not understand that Aslan is Jesus, you don't know enough about biblical imagery.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Uh, because if you know, and I mean, literally I was reading, it's insane.
Speaker: He's a lamb and then he's a lion.
Speaker: And then he literally says, there's like a curtain on the edge of the world and he splits it and they walk through.
Speaker: It's insane.
Speaker: The, um, he's there preparing fish on the side of a lake.
Speaker: It's literally an insane, like if he's making sure that if anyone didn't get that as I'm supposed to be Jesus, you have to be
Speaker: Really unfamiliar with Jesus.
Speaker: Really unfamiliar with Jesus to understand it.
Speaker: He even says, I exist in your world and you have to get me to know me there.
Speaker: It's very clear.
Speaker: But I think that using of, again, exploring, like you said, spiritual themes like possession and conversion and this kind of stuff in a setting that's totally different is...
Speaker: a good way for the artist to think about the thing and also think about the value of the art on the self of how does the art not just help you depict beauty and truth, but how does it help shape you in the very doing of the thing?
Speaker: I know my, like when I played Jesus, like that has radically changed and is like a big turning point in my relationship with God and the Trinity and just how I relate to
Speaker: to him as my creator and father and brother.
Speaker: And again, all that has to come back under the lens of the Bible and is what you're believing actually true according to what we know is true.
Speaker: God is not actually a stage light that I look at.
Speaker: And not just your actual experience, but I think it can help shape and inform.
Speaker: Because even like...
Speaker: our pastor at Calvary wrote a fantasy novel and it's very much an allegory.
Speaker: And in it, there is a little bird who's the Holy Spirit who comes to the main character and empowers him and does all this kind of stuff.
Speaker: And again, that kind of imagery of how does this help you think about the Holy Spirit, not in a false way, but in a different way that helps you reveal truth.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Cause that's what,
Speaker: I tend to think of fiction, and not all art is fiction, but I tend to think of fiction as something untrue which reveals truth, right?
Speaker: At least good fiction.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's something that is not actually true.
Speaker: It didn't actually happen, but it does reveal real truth.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And while I think all art... I'll say this real quick and then we'll wrap up.
Speaker: I feel like all art is... Like, there's something...
Speaker: otherworldly about it because it's not like a real it's not like a conversation you're having with somebody even if you're listening to a song this song's been done a thousand times it has music which is weird and abstract going on but like art should always be reflecting something that's truthful you're always reflecting something towards your audience even if it's either truthful or it's propaganda or it's art is always saying something yeah and part of the role of the viewer is to determine is the thing it's saying
Speaker: True.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then you as a Christian artist, I think sometimes even just in your Christian belief being real to you, you may just inherently reflect, like if you're painting a mountain, just by the fact that you know God created that may reflect that on you.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And not in any, I also painted God up in the cloud.
Speaker: No, it's an inherent... God's right here smiling about the mountain.
Speaker: Yeah, I know.
Speaker: I think it's an inherent...
Speaker: understanding that because I believe in honor and glory by God as creator, that will in some sense come out in the art.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then it gives the opportunity to talk explicit with people about that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, thank you for coming onto the podcast.
Speaker: This has been a lot of fun.
Speaker: I would love to have you on again.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: I live nearby.
Speaker: I can come by.
Speaker: There we go.
Speaker: Talk about.
Speaker: Are video games art and is Narnia an allegory?
Speaker: I totally want to unpack video games as art and Christian art with you sometimes.
Speaker: I'm willing to do that.
Speaker: If you enjoyed this podcast, give it a rating.
Speaker: Let me know.
Speaker: Share it.
Speaker: That really does help.
Speaker: John doesn't really do art, so you don't really need to lie.
Speaker: I mean, he does, but like... Not anything that you could find on Instagram.
Speaker: Yeah, you're not going to be able to look it up.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Not that.
Speaker: But, I mean...
Speaker: John's awesome.
Speaker: So just know that he's awesome.
Speaker: Anyways, thank you again, John, for coming on.
Speaker: Hope you all enjoyed this episode and we will see you guys next time.
