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Educational Evolution: Brenda Lee Anderson and the NAEd/Spencer Fellowship
28 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of "Willing to Learn," host Dr. Ashley D. Domínguez engages with2023 NAEd/Spencer 2023 National Academy of Education Dissertation Fellow Brenda Lee Anderson. The episode explores Brenda's journey, which showcases resilience and a deep commitment to social justice, exemplifying the profound impact of personal experiences on scholarly pursuits. Utilizing institutional ethnography to dissect power dynamics within educational settings, Brenda’s research sheds light on systemic issues affecting marginalized communities.
Brenda shares their pursuit of an academic path marked by challenges and triumphs in navigating academia as a Black, queer, non-binary scholar. The awarding of the prestigious fellowship underscores the significance of Brenda's work, poised to offer fresh perspectives in educational research. The discussion also highlights the crucial roles of mentorship and community support, revealing the intersection of personal identity and scholarly exploration. Brenda’s narrative is not only about academic achievement but also a compelling account of striving for systemic change in higher education.
Recommended Resources:
- Institutional Ethnography: A Sociology for People by Dorothy E. Smith
- They Say / I Say by Gerald Graff and Cathy Birkenstein
- Derecka Purnell
- Marc Lamont Hill
Follow Brenda:
- Twitter: @BrendaLeeXO
- Instagram: @BrenLeeXO
- Email: BrendaLeeAnderson10@gmail.com
Willing To Learn Resources:
- Instagram - Dr. Ashley D. Domínguez @ashddominguez
- Instagram - Willing To Learn @willingtolearnpodcast
- Email: willingtolearnpodcast@gmail.com
- Produced by: Jeffrey Anthony
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Willing to Learn'
00:00:06
Speaker
This is willing to learn.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Willing to Learn, where we believe that when we know more, we can do more. I'm your host, Dr. Ashley Villaminguez.
Brenda Lee Anderson's Research on Structural Oppression
00:00:29
Speaker
Today's show, we have Brenda Lee Anderson. Brenda is a PhD candidate in the Center for the Study of Higher Education at the University of Arizona. Drawing on critical qualitative methodologies, her research scrutinizes and interrogates structural oppression in higher education that impedes the success of minoritized communities.
00:00:48
Speaker
informed by her prior experience, supporting survivors of campus sexual violence as a campus advocate. Brenda's dissertation examines how institutional conceptions of safety do or do not meet the needs of students with multiple marginalized identities. Welcome to the podcast,
Brenda's Personal Journey and Upbringing
00:01:06
Speaker
Bren. Thank you so much for having me. Ashley, I'm really excited to be here and share a little bit about my journey with your listeners.
00:01:13
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Yes. And we were just talking about our secret obsession for Bravo. This is not that, but we both love it. And we are going to talk about that soon. Yes. But let's get you learn a little bit about you and your story because I find that oftentimes our histories, our origins really inform what leads us to do the work that we do. So if you don't mind just telling us a little bit more about you.
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think you provided a really good introduction of what or I guess who brim is on a piece of paper, right? But as you said, like our origins, our stories like really inform who we are and what we do. If I'm thinking about myself and how I got to where I am today,
00:01:59
Speaker
I think the big arching word that I've really been thinking about in terms of getting prepared for this podcast, but also just being in a community with you outside of this podcast is the word community. I would not be here today without people who showed up for me in my life in many, many seasons.
00:02:16
Speaker
I was born in Toledo, Ohio, but I was raised in the middle of nowhere, Tennessee, Cleveland, Tennessee. It's actually gotten bigger since I left for college. And I actually remember when I was leaving for college, I was like, I'm never going back. And I literally, I go back for, I guess, the holidays. But I was like, at 18, I was like, I'm not returning home. You're not getting out. And then you're like, OK, I'll go back.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm a first generation high school graduate. I'm one of six kids in my family. I was the first person in my family to graduate from high school, which is bizarre, but very real for a lot of people. So I have three older siblings and there's me and I have two younger siblings. And when I think about like my college journey, I would hear about college, but it wasn't something that I felt like I could actually obtain just because I was very much like middle child
00:03:08
Speaker
show up for your family, right, show up support.
Family Influence and Academic Pursuits
00:03:11
Speaker
And when I was in high school, I worked multiple jobs to help take care of my family. I do identify as a former foster care youth. And so I was in and out of the system my whole life. And then there's other pieces, right, where incarceration, having both my parents incarcerated for large amounts of time, really like how I come into the work that I do. And I really contend with the question of like answerability, like why this, why me, why now?
00:03:35
Speaker
that Dr. Lee Patel talks about, right? So it's not just like consuming this work, like going in, but also how is this work both deep and meaningful and how am I doing this work in a way that is focused on healing and some type of justice. And I talked a little bit about this in other settings, but I still remember the day that I was accepted into college.
00:03:57
Speaker
I applied to college. I was working at Chick-fil-A, and I hated it for multiple reasons. And everyone was getting prepared for college. And they're like, oh, hey, do you have plans? What are you doing? And I was like, yeah, I would love college. But I had this fear of what it meant to leave my younger siblings because of the instability and the fact that I was at that point not the grown up, but the most stable person in my family. And so I remember that day like it was yesterday, my mom called me.
00:04:24
Speaker
And she says, hey, baby, we go into college. And so I remember that because it wasn't like, hey, Bren, you're going to college. It was, hey, baby, we go into college. And so when I went into academia, when I went into being a first generation college student, it was never just about me. It's also about how is my trajectory in education? How does my trajectory within the academy look like both for me and my family?
Cultural Background and Activism
00:04:52
Speaker
I grew up in a blacky black household. I love to tell people that my family celebrated Juneteenth before Juneteenth was like pink washed and like on Walmart ice cream. And so in my community, right, Juneteenth and these different things, it was about like showing up, but also like focusing on just like black joy and black healing, right? I grew up learning that my family was enslaved, right? But it wasn't necessarily about
00:05:16
Speaker
Oh, we're enslaved, but it was honoring our ancestors, but also understanding that like you're literally standing on giants, right? Those people have paved the way for you. So when I went into undergrad, I got involved in organizing because my granddad was very much a part of the black power movement.
Navigating College as a Black Woman
00:05:33
Speaker
I have photos of him, this big ass fro, his power fist. And I would hear all of these stories about black liberation theology, Howard Truman, right? And really thinking about in the world, people are suffering and you don't ask yourself, well, what is that person going to do? But really think about like, how can I help support a more just and like freer society?
00:05:54
Speaker
And fast forward a little bit, like when I was an undergrad, I was overly involved in BSU, or Black Student Union. I was also dealing with some of my own identity things because I had decided to join a predominantly white sorority, which I think that's a conversation for another day.
00:06:10
Speaker
But I also think in those experiences and being a member of Chi Omega Fraternity, I was the only Black woman that had went through recruitment, got a bit to what you would know in the South as like the top house. And I remember I had gauges in my ears like,
00:06:26
Speaker
a pair of vans on some cargo shorts. And I remember that day, like, people had, like, Lily Pultur, like, all these fancy brands. And I think that should have been, like, my sign to, like, run as far as I could. But I really think, like, in those moments of being in BSU, right, advocating for Black students' needs, but also being a member of a white, predominantly, well, it's not predominantly, it is just white. Like, let's actually name
Identity Development and Activism
00:06:49
Speaker
that. Like, I shouldn't be saying predominantly, like, it's a white ass
00:06:52
Speaker
structure an organization. Sorry for testing. Later in my development, I remember reading a research article by Chris Linder where she talked, Dr. Chris Linder, where she talked a little bit about the identity development of women of color in predominantly white spaces. And I remember reading the article and I didn't even know who Dr. Chris Linder was. And I was like, this person is my soul model. Like, have you ever read some research here? Like, is this person interviewing me? And I started to like really understand like, wait,
00:07:22
Speaker
Me being in Chi Omega fraternity really propelled me in ways to think about my identity development, because I was at this nexus of like this very white space but also do an organizing in the community, right around things like the GED and being a first generation high school student, doing organizing around the GED and the changes to the GED.
00:07:43
Speaker
that's actually what propelled the rest of my family to get their GED. So at that point, right, I was out there in the streets organizing, getting cited, getting arrested because of the changes that were coming to the GED. And I remember calling my dad and my dad's like, remember, you need to finish school, you need to finish school. And I said, yeah, dad, but it's so important. Like we have to show up for our people. This isn't just going to impact future generations, it's impacting people now. And my dad said, okay, if you're really invested in education, like I'm going to go back to school.
00:08:11
Speaker
And so next thing you know, my dad goes and gets his GED, my brother goes and gets his GED. And when I was graduating from undergrad, right, my dad was graduating from technical school.
Family Achievements and Personal Milestones
00:08:22
Speaker
And so it was this beautiful thing that I got to see where my dad loves to joke around how he got a 4.0. And I'm like that if you worked right with your hands for years, and then someone's like, come in and take a test, like,
00:08:35
Speaker
I kind of give them shit because I'm like, you already knew all the content because you taught yourself, but also we can have conversations about that. And then when I was graduating with my master's degree, I got to experience my brother David graduate with his associate's degree. And so really being that trailblazer and in between time to speed it up, I was a NASPA fellow. So I got the opportunity to intern at the University of Vermont, University of Tennessee, Knoxville. And I had mentors who
00:09:01
Speaker
really helped me think critically about institutions of higher education. I will acknowledge in that time, right, like many young folks, I was drinking the Kool-Aid, and we can talk about that, right? This is how I came into my study in that kind of dissonance. I ended up going to the University of Georgia, where I had an amazing faculty members, Dr. Daris Means,
00:09:22
Speaker
who was my mentor as well as like Dr. Mary Lee Dunn, Dr. Chris Linder, and so many other brilliant people who really just developed me right. I was the master's student that they didn't know what to do with so I come in and I'm like I want to do research and they're like well master's students aren't usually on research teams and I'm like but Brynn is right and so I was the first ever
00:09:44
Speaker
master's student that was invited to be a part of a research team at the University of Georgia and so I got to learn from like PhD students to learn about putting together research and asking deep questions and then took a job at the University of Arizona as a counselor case manager and I was hired as a part of a list of
Current Status and Future Aspirations
00:10:02
Speaker
demands from black students who were organizing and that really informed me because it was in 2016 when we were dealing with not only like the mass murders of
00:10:11
Speaker
black, brown, and indigenous people by policing and brutality, but also thinking about Trump's presidency. And I'll be honest, right? If I could go back to Bren, who was graduating with her master's degree, I don't think I would have came to Arizona.
00:10:26
Speaker
knowing what I know now. And so I'm currently a PhD candidate in the Center for the Study of Higher Education, as you shared, and I'm a Spencer Fellow, a National Academy of Education Fellow. I'm a proud fellow, and every day I wake up, I actually was talking to a staff member with the National Academy of Education yesterday, and I made a joke. I was like,
00:10:46
Speaker
Does NAAD, like the National Academy, know they picked me? And they're like, yeah, we picked you. And I was like, I have to literally wake up every day and say, it's an honor to be a National Academy of Education Fellow, right? It's an honor to be able to have funding to focus on something that has the potential to really change education. But it also reminds me of that, to never, ever give up on your dreams. And I think kids like me who grow up in the hood, we're always told, right?
00:11:15
Speaker
You can dream, but that might not come into fruition. But every morning I just remind myself, dreaming and having hope and having desire is a thing that will liberate you, right? It's not seeing the tangible things now. I'm not saying that. And I don't want to confuse this. NAD has liberated me. Like, no, it's still a structure, right? It's still an organization. But I think this experience and everything that I've gone through, as I'm sure we'll talk about,
00:11:39
Speaker
to get to where I am now, it's like kids in the hood, we don't get to dream. And so I dream of an abolitionist future. I dream of a society where folks have what they need to not only survive, but thrive. And so that's what I hope my work will do. And I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about my dissertation and what that looks like. And I just hope that this conversation serves as a way for other scholars to number one, not give up on themselves, but also think about how a gay community propels you.
00:12:06
Speaker
Thank you so much for sharing that and I want to highlight here just not only the importance of you breaking generational cycles and navigating higher education and being a strong influence for your own family for them to want to pursue school be it a GED or an associate's degree and how you were really pioneering that force in your family
00:12:29
Speaker
and how powerful that is and what pride that instills in you to be able to say, yeah, I was a part of that. Like I helped change the future in the course of this family. So potentially future generations of our family can move beyond just the high school diploma.
00:12:48
Speaker
Or yeah,
Balancing Family Expectations and Academic Success
00:12:50
Speaker
I think you bring up some really good points with that because it's interesting. I remember the first time I went home after like my first semester, a lot of stuff was happening, right? Like we had a tornado in our town. My parents got like taken off and I actually felt all of my classes and lost my scholarships. And I remember like being home and like just the unstable environment and reminded myself like I can actually go to bed when I was on a college campus.
00:13:13
Speaker
for the first time in my life, I didn't have to think about if someone was ripping or running in the house, if I was going to hear a gunshot, if I was going to just be afraid to go to bed because of just the instability, or if the cops were going to bust in. I was like, I have to focus on my degree. And this messed up, but when your stability and safety is tied to an institution, but institutions in themselves are violent,
00:13:39
Speaker
That's messed up. And you bring up really good points because when I went home, I remember I was so afraid to tell my family and I would get excited because I'm like, these are all the things that I'm learning. And one of my siblings actually knows my sibling was actually my mom. She said, don't bring that university shit into my house.
00:13:55
Speaker
And I was like, what? And I was just like so excited about some advocacy work that I was doing, right? I remember the feeling and I'm like kind of externally processing right now. And I was like, even if, right, you go and you obtain these things, like there is that tension that it creates in your family. And so even though I was a pioneer, there was like this double edge sort of like, there's the good, it's like a both end, right? Like you can experience these amazing things and it creates a somewhat chasm. Cause now you're different than your family.
00:14:26
Speaker
You're not painting the status quo of what has been the norm, right? You're departing from that. And that can be painful for your family to see. And I've even experienced this in my own family where it's like, oh, well, if you go to college, you're going to get brainwashed. And what if you didn't agree or what if you start looking at me differently?
00:14:48
Speaker
No, I'm still Brent from the hood, but my family calls me, yeah, my family calls me Beelie. And I actually appreciate that because I think sometimes in the academy or in like, well, the academy is corporate America, it is so easy to like live in a bubble.
00:15:05
Speaker
And I go home and I remind it like, damn, people are actually still out here making a way with no resources. And so. And I noticed that too when you talked about like, OK, I'm going to go, you know, first time at college, but I'm going to go get involved and organize the effort or I'm going to go get my master's. And even though other master's students are not typically a part of these research projects, I'm going to make a way to get myself in those spaces.
00:15:33
Speaker
So can you talk a little bit about where that comes from? What qualities or mindset helps you put yourself in situations, A, that maybe you're not previously used to and uncomfortable in and find a place to belong, even if there are these pressures or people that you're going to encounter along the way who remind you that you don't?
00:15:56
Speaker
Seriously, I think like my granddad, my dad and my mom, so my granddad grew up in like deeply segregated South, right? And really learning like he was one of 16, like black women were out there having kids, right?
00:16:12
Speaker
And he was actually the first one in his family to go off and it's kind of, it's not bizarre, but like my granddad joined the military, but he was like actually anti-military and made me and my siblings like make a promise of that we would never join the military. Cause he's like, it is not a place for like black
00:16:28
Speaker
people or black women in general, but that's a conversation in like another way. But I think like him being that trailblazer and having an eighth grade education and joining the military and understanding like even though he was in the military, he still experienced discrimination from people who were supposed to be like his colleagues, right? Like two are supposed to like take the same oath as him.
00:16:49
Speaker
And then I think about my dad and my mom. My mom is biracial. She grew up in the South, Birmingham, Montgomery, Alabama, right to a white mother and a black dad. Essentially, one of the things I was always told, and maybe not the most eloquent ways, because my mom is not going to
00:17:08
Speaker
give you like the feedback in a little sandwich, right? She's just going to say what she needs to say and keep it moving. But it was always this idea of like the answer is no, right? You live in a society because of the color of your skin because of like how you're situated. The answer is always no, you can only make it a yes. So if you're always going to say, well, I'm not going to put myself out there because of reject rejection or they're going to say no, then essentially like the answer will always be no.
Community Support and Resilience
00:17:35
Speaker
And I think like, even in that as like, I'm processing, right? Like, there's some messed up undertones in that, right? Like, were my parents particularly thinking about assimilation, right? Were they thinking about when they were telling me these things that I needed to be a particular type of way in order to quote unquote, survive?
00:17:54
Speaker
But I also think about like when I had these moments of stability in my life through like my foster parents who like I'm still super close to this day, like the day that I got married, I remember like my foster dad actually like came to the wedding and like prayed over me and my partner, right? And my foster parents were there because I see them as like my parents, right? Like four different families who like at this point have four dads, four moms, lots of black aunties, lots of cousins, lots of
00:18:23
Speaker
kinship network since anytime I was in these spaces right I was always told like if the answer is already knowing you're making it a yes when that answer becomes a yes it's what you do with that right and so how are you also thinking about reaching back into your community
00:18:40
Speaker
Right? How are you also thinking about bringing other people with you? So you don't just walk in a door and close it and now allow anyone else in there. And so I hate the analogies of like a seat at the table because I don't really need a seat at the table. Like I don't, like I think that idea is also rooted in like really messed up things. And it's like community gets you places, but when you get to a place, right, you don't forget about that community.
00:19:05
Speaker
And so, for example, like when I was at Georgia and I was the first master's student that was invited on to a research team under the guidance first, I was with Dr. Mary Lee Dunn and I really appreciated this. The study was about poverty, right? University of Georgia is this massive like top tier institution, right? The birthplace of higher education and it's surrounded by like housing projects. So going into this beautiful campus, I'm like, those are like the apartments that I grew up in as a kid. And I had
00:19:32
Speaker
this group of researchers who were trying to think about how students, privileged students at UGA were learning about poverty because of where they were situated next to where the campus was situated. And so in those conversations, I remember the doctoral students and even Dr. Dunn would be like, you bring such a different perspective, Bryn. You bring such a different perspective. And it was like, yeah, I'm bringing the years of living in the hood.
00:19:59
Speaker
And having the educator come in and be like, hey, can you fill out the survey? Or hey, remember when those McDonald's like coupon books were a thing? They would come, especially around Halloween, they would come out and you get a dollar for like the Sundays and like the researchers would come in and be like, if you come into this, here you go. Like me and my siblings, we all wrote up six deep.
00:20:21
Speaker
We're like, we're getting one for all of us. I want to make sure we have food for like the rest of the week. And just really thinking about like, it's never been just about me. It's about community. And I think like just the people in my life really just said, the world is a weird place. The answer is going to be no. But when you get a yes, don't close that door. How do you bring your community with you?
00:20:44
Speaker
I mean, I love that, especially because oftentimes we hear no, especially in academia. And I think sometimes think like, Oh, I gotta know, like the end. And it's like, no, no, no, no, keep pushing, especially in this sphere that we work, you're going to get a lot of no's.
Perseverance in Academia
00:20:59
Speaker
You're going to get as a master's student, as a PhD student, rear scholar, as a tenured scholar, be prepared for the no's.
00:21:09
Speaker
But the no's aren't, should not paralyze you. The no's aren't is not the final line in the sand. And that's what I really appreciate through your storytelling is that, okay, expect the no, but so what? Keep going, keep pushing, find your people, find your community and keep pushing forward. And that seems like that's exactly how you've approached your life and especially in academia. I was taking a look now at your Google Scholar
00:21:37
Speaker
You've already published since 2018 seven pieces as a grad student, which is really incredible. Yeah, I got some more coming. I think I have to just like, it's wild because that's like Google Scholar and it's like, if you would have told Bren, baby Bren, that I would be a published author, I'd be like, wait, what? But again, like,
00:21:58
Speaker
Library was like my safety spot. Like I would be at the library and reading and dreaming because it was like, shit, if I can stay here until 9 p.m. and I get home, I can be to bed in 30 minutes and then next day at school and just do that over and over again, right? And Google Scholar is one part of it. I like to joke around about, you know, team type and cry.
00:22:19
Speaker
But I love learning and I think that also is what's been amazing. And none of those citations, none of those articles could have been done without community, without people who really believed in me. And I think in academia, and this will go into talking a little bit about
00:22:37
Speaker
preparing for Spencer and competitive fellowship applications like academia is so individualized like it is and it can become a very toxic place right where we love to not talk about it but inherently it's like competitive
00:22:56
Speaker
It's about like who you know who you don't know right and because of that like individualism Is perpetuated and so when people look at my resume And you're actually reminding me like I need to go in and like update it because I think I actually have like 12 peer reviewed articles um, yeah, and so
00:23:15
Speaker
It's been like an amazing weirdness because people, number one, like, again, I couldn't have done that without community, but similar to what you were saying about no can paralyze you. So if someone if you're coming into a program, right, and you're this eager learner, and
00:23:32
Speaker
people are just so consumed with their day to day or like I have to just go get tenure and the only thing I can do is focus on tenure and focus on you know the things I need to do for like young eager grad students like that can be so like just messed up and so I'm thankful that like
00:23:50
Speaker
People, especially someone who has ADHD and growing up like in schools in the hood, right, if you were over eager, then that was something that was like looked at as, oh, you're just like wild, right. But in my master's program and in my PhD program, like my eagerness and my desire to learn was something that I think was really matured.
00:24:09
Speaker
and looked at as a strength and something that was cultivated. And so I would have never been able to be where I am in terms of publications and my writing and my ability to think across different conceptualizing things, to think through theory or think with theory. If it wasn't for people like my advisor, Dr. Regina Dalamen, my community members, like Dr. Britt Williams at Vermont, who I was on her
00:24:37
Speaker
I was a master's student. She was a PhD student on that research team, right? Who like took me under her wing and was like, Brynn, I got you. And it's consistently shown up for me, right? And then with Dr. Regina Dolla-Minn, like I was given a speech at a first generation conference and I had never met Regina, but I heard of Regina cause I read her work and I'm like, not even just undergrad. I was reading her work in undergrad. And then my master's program and
00:25:02
Speaker
in the crowd, she comes up to me and she's like, have you ever thought about getting a PhD? And it's like, sounds like her straight to the plate. And I looked at her and I was like, I hate the University of Arizona. And she's like, give me a call. And I'm like, Oh, God. And so again, like, I wouldn't be here without people who really just cared for me and like protected me around, like not protect me around individualism, but like did the opposite of that.
00:25:30
Speaker
They actually see things in terms of collaboration, right? Of like, yes, I need to get tenure, I need to get to my next step, but I'm also going to bring students along. I'm also going to bring other people along. And then as I started to develop confidence, I was like, I'm going to leave my own work.
00:25:47
Speaker
It's been trial and error. I've gotten a lot of no's. I know right now I'm talking about the yeses, but y'all, I cry all the time. I've ran so many marathons and half marathons in this PhD program because I like to talk about the fact that if I can run, I just shut my brain off. And then by the time I'm done with that, I'm like, all right, it's in a box.
00:26:08
Speaker
Let's talk about that for graduate students who are thinking like, wow, how do I get opportunities to publish like that? If I look up to Bren that she's been able to make these relationships, forge these connections, have people take her under her wing, and it's been really a fruitful collaborative experience, how do I get those types of experiences? What advice would you offer them?
00:26:31
Speaker
I'm thinking of giving myself some advice because I struggle with this. Send that damn email. I become paralyzed. And I don't think it's anyone's issue but the Academy. I think we put people on pedestals. I think we read people's work, but we don't truly know who they are. And because of that, you then create this narrative of who that scholar is or who that person is. But at the end of the day, they're a human. And they're flawed. They're flawed just as we are.
00:27:00
Speaker
and send that damn email, right? But when you're sending that email, know exactly what you need. So I think I learned early on. It's not early on. I think, especially after COVID, our society is so like, we doom scroll. So we're just growing all day. If it's not only like Instagram or X,
00:27:21
Speaker
Remember, I'm a part of Black Twitter, so Twitter, not X. I think sometimes like if you're not intentional about sending the email, it's easy for people to just like scroll and just keep on going because we did that multiple years because we were all stuck in a house, right? And we haven't gotten out of that. And so send the damn email, but be mindful of what are you asking for? What do you need?
00:27:44
Speaker
And also just like send the email and ask to engage with their work, right? But also like, it's not just about your work, but I would love to like, just to get to know you as a person.
00:27:54
Speaker
When it was announced that I was a National Academy of Education Fellow, people came out the Whitworks. It was wild. It was wild. Okay, so let's get into that because we have talked about the power of no's, but we're gonna get into a big power of yes now. You are a 2023 Spencer dissertation fellow. Big congratulations. Thank you. This is a huge award, very prestigious award. But oftentimes, I build the conversations on
00:28:22
Speaker
How does one get inspired or encouraged to apply?
Applying for the Spencer Fellowship
00:28:25
Speaker
What's that process look like? You get the award. What's the reaction? So let's go back to why did you apply in the first place? Yeah, and I'm just going to be transparent. I know this is going to be on a recording for the rest of my life, but hey. I was your student affairs professional who worked and went to school full time. And I realized that I was a better researcher and academic than I was as a practitioner.
00:28:51
Speaker
When you grow up and your orientation is to justice, right, is to thinking about how systems of repression impact not only you, but your family and other communities, you can no longer turn off that critical brain. And I'm not saying that people that currently work in student affairs aren't critical, but I came to a point where it was like, yeah, I'm actually advocating against the institution that hired. How is that positioning me as a Black queer
00:29:19
Speaker
non-binary person in a very particular way, right? And it's very, very interesting. I was exhausted and I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I remember when I was preparing for fellowship applications or thinking about them, I was very clear with Regina, like,
00:29:35
Speaker
I want to apply for Spencer, like what are other things that I can do because this is just like not sustainable. And I also, at that point, as you talked about, I was writing and I was on so many different research teams that like the work and the research, sorry, the practice was informing the research, but the research wasn't informing the practice. And we see that a lot in higher ed, right? We can go out, we can do this work, but then like there's a disconnect because of institutions.
00:30:02
Speaker
And so I was very open and I just kept saying, hey, I want to apply for this. And have that in your mind to apply. Did someone suggest it? Did you hear about it from someone, a peer, a professor? I knew there were options for.
00:30:19
Speaker
funding, how I came to understand what Spencer was or the idea of Spencer at National Academy of Ed is because my mentor Daris Means was named a National Academy of Ed fellow. And I remember I was on Twitter and I was seeing this and I was like, oh, like this is fancy. Like, what is this? Like, this is like, I thought it was MacArthur, honestly. I was like, I remember being like, congrats on MacArthur. And Daris was like, I'm not a MacArthur fellow, but I appreciate it.
00:30:47
Speaker
And so then I would be in these circles, right, and I would meet other, like, fellows, and I would hear about, like, the Dr. Amanda Tachinis, who also is a postdoc, and then my advisor was a postdoc fellow. And then I was, like, just exhausted, right, in terms of being a practitioner and being brutalized by an institution and realizing that the people who hired to advocate me hired me
00:31:13
Speaker
to literally advocate against them. It was like this weird thing that Regina sent me. Well, she sent like everyone on the educational leadership policy and practice listserv. The Writing Center does this like summer development opportunity research fellow program where you get
00:31:32
Speaker
paired with a graduate student who has been awarded a nationally competitive fellowship and they help you develop like a first rough draft. And so during COVID, I wasn't doing anything, right? Like, well, I was doing things, but like I was stuck in the house. And so I applied for the program, I got in, and the application I actually focused it on because no one had gotten Spencer outside of like postdocs, but they had already left U of A, they actually had me writing my fellowship for
00:32:01
Speaker
the American Association for Undergraduate Women, because there were graduate students who had gotten that. And they also have grad students who were mentors who had gotten NSF. You were writing these two applications at the same time. I was focused on AUW, the American Association. Yeah, so this is two years out. And during that time, I did that. And it was a year out. And then that following summer,
00:32:26
Speaker
I went back in and I said, okay, I'm not going to apply for the Association for Undergraduate Women. I'm actually going to apply for Spencer. And the reason why I decided to apply for Spencer was because it was, my plan was to quit my job, right? Before the trauma and all the stuff that happened, my plan was to quit my job because I was like, there was no way
00:32:48
Speaker
given my dissertation subject, given my topic, I'm already tired writing a proposal, and writing in general, there's no way that it would be sustainable for me to be able to work and complete a dissertation. And it would be disingenuous to my participants. So if I'm saying I'm centering the most marginalized, I need to center my study participants. If I'm saying I'm taking a standpoint theory,
00:33:11
Speaker
I need to center and literally take that up. And so it was like a all or nothing. I had literally was like, I can't do it. And I remember telling Regina, like, if I don't get funding, like my plan is to take out some student loans. Like I want to be able to focus on my dissertation because in so much, right? It was, Brenda not only is focusing on writing a proposal, but she's working 80 hours a week. And then she's also publishing and on this research team.
00:33:35
Speaker
Like I saw it also as an effort. Yeah. And I saw it as a family. You still have doggies and all the other things in your personal life that you're navigating. And y'all I got like 15 best friends.
00:33:49
Speaker
And I'm an organizer, like, so it was a lot, right? It was unsustainable. And so it was like a all or nothing, right? And so I decided to apply for the National Academy of Education. This is really funny. I snuck into a sincere party at AERA. American Educators Association. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So they have actually gotten a really strict, um,
00:34:13
Speaker
y'all friend does not listen into no's so you take away from this combo
00:34:26
Speaker
knows me nothing. It was so funny. Okay, so like, San Diego happens, right? And someone's like, Oh, there's a National Academy of Ed Spencer reception. And I remember one time I was in a circle and they talked about how Spencer had great food. And remember, I'm in grad school. So the only thing I could think about was the food. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna find out how to get in there. And then I remember,
00:34:53
Speaker
Like walking in it was like on top of this like roof in San Diego and the person was like signing people in I was like Rick in there and I remember later I saw Regina my advisor there and she's like you're gonna find your way how to get in a place I was like, you know me and so then I was in the door and I'm looking around and it's like I've engaged your work. I've engaged your work. I think it's your work and
00:35:17
Speaker
Oh my god, oh my god. How do I go have a conversation with these people? So I let myself just be myself, right? I'm over here literally standing next to people that, you know, like, again, I have made that comment like, oh my god, this is my soul mom, they don't know I exist. It was like one of those like nerding out academia moments and I had to just remind myself like these people are human, like they're human.
00:35:38
Speaker
And after that, the Spencer like officials, they gave a overview of like what Spencer was. And I really enjoyed how they were committed to funding opportunities that would have an impact or had the potential, right. And I'm going to use potential, had the potential to change the face of education.
00:35:57
Speaker
And I was like, oh, and then I was talking to other grad students, right, who had been working on their applications for like years. And I was like, I'm so behind. I am so behind. So you have other grad students who are applying for the dissertation fellowship, who have been working on their application for years. For years, like literally years. And at this point, have you had you started working on your app?
00:36:21
Speaker
I hadn't. I had just found out about National Academy of Ed Spencer. I knew a postdoc, and you see the Twitter announcements, but then I'm going to the party and I'm realizing, not only are the appetizers great, but this is a huge deal.
00:36:43
Speaker
Like money, I'm going to be fully funded, do my research, get my average snacks. Like, yo, yo. And look at all these amazing scholars that I can learn from and share space with. Yeah. So I remember afterwards, I left from San Diego and I sent Dr. Means a text, right? And it's honestly a gang community because I remember, I love my advisor, right?
00:37:09
Speaker
And she's cheap, just like me. So she's the like, she's your black auntie, like Puerto Rican auntie. Let's be correct. She's multi-year. But she's like, let me help you help yourself. You're struggling. She's like, you can take a lift with me and we can save money. And I was like, hey, you're my type of person.
00:37:28
Speaker
So I remember all my friends were eager once we got to the airport in San Diego to leave. And I'm like, well, Regina's offered me a ride. Why wouldn't I take the free ride? And they're like, all right, we'll see. We're heading out. And in that moment, Dr. Amanda Tachini walks out. And I realized we're all taking a car together. Amanda was talking about how she was going to be at ARA so she could mentor Spencer and NAD dissertation fellows. So I was in this car ride. And then I hear about these receptions. And I'm like, I'm finding a way in there.
00:37:57
Speaker
And so I remember the goal was, how do I show up? So I get there, and I see these people. And then afterwards, I text there. It's mean. And I was like, I think I'm going to apply for Spencer. And I'm having a little confidence every time. And I'm like, I think I'm going to apply for Spencer. I'm having a little more confidence. I think I'm going to apply for Spencer. And then it was like, you know what? I'm going to do this. So that's April, right? This is 2023.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah. Hold on. Time. So ARA last year, 2023, was in Chicago.
Application Challenges and Strategies
00:38:27
Speaker
So the year before was 2022. Yeah. We were in San Diego. And the application was due in November. Is that correct? October. It was due in October. Okay.
00:38:36
Speaker
In May, I met Regina and I was like, yeah, this is my plan. And then I started to think about like letter writers and those things. And I just like, I hustle, literally hustle throughout the summer. And I felt like I was writing my proposal all over again. And my piece of advice is that, and I've learned this, it's very, very hard for me to ask for help. And I think there's a lot of socialization like with that. And I want to say it's hard for me to ask for help because it's
00:39:04
Speaker
been internal, I've internalized like this idea of like, well, what if I'm a burden, right? Like this person is busy and I've worked on that and I still am. And my biggest pieces of advice is like, share your drafts with your kitchen table. And I'll talk about a kitchen table well before you get to like September.
00:39:21
Speaker
Well before you get to September because Bren I had invited four people to be a part of my kitchen table So my kitchen table was like the people you don't just invite anybody to come have lunch dinner with you at your family like your table, right? And so there's like this level of vulnerability when you invite someone to your kitchen table, right? Because they're seeing your house. They're seeing your family. You don't know what's gonna come in a lot of our most pieces
00:39:46
Speaker
Sometimes a lot of the pieces that don't make it to the final stages, you're letting those aspects of the writing and the work that you're thinking about. Okay, good. So I invited Regina as my advisor, Kadina Salazar, who's on my committee, who's also a postdoc, which has been such a beautiful moment to be able to share that with Dr. Salazar. Kadina is amazing. It reminds me that you can do this work and still be deeply ingrained in your community. I love Kadina.
00:40:15
Speaker
I invited Dr. Britt Williams at Vermont because she's known Brynn since Brynn was out here doing weird stuff. And I invited Dr. Nolan Cabrera because I took class with Nolan and Nolan actually challenged me in ways that I'm super appreciative of.
00:40:35
Speaker
right? I think that sometimes it's easy. He does this thing where he's like, you can't just explain, you have to explain and analyze. And so Nolan pushed me to like thinking about when I'm writing, right, don't just explain, like, explain, then analyze, right? Where he really helped develop that, right? And so that's like my kitchen table. I'm trying to think like, if I am missing anyone,
00:40:57
Speaker
Oh, Dr. Jamaica Delmar, who is a professor of practice in our department. And she had, I remember when I had first asked her to be a part of my kitchen table. She's like, girl, I've never applied for this fancy stuff. But like, I'm going to show up for you because like, I think that like, you're going to be a Spencer fellow one day.
00:41:14
Speaker
And I was like, you really think so? I was like, I've been hearing horror stories of people who have applied like multiple times and like didn't get it. And like, I can't remember, there's so much shit that's also happening in my life at this time that I could feel the pressure. And so. So these scholars comprise your kitchen table and they are, how soon are you sending them drafts?
00:41:36
Speaker
This is what happens, okay? I'm have transparent moment. They're like, hey, send me your drive. And I'm like, I will. And I would do the pivot, right?
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah, because at that time, any type of pivot, like, oh, like, yeah, I could have been ready, right? Because honestly, like, I was ready, but I wanted to be perfect. Let me actually just name it. I wanted to be perfect. And I think sometimes like in the Academy, because of socialization, when we put these scholars on pedestals, it's hard to acknowledge that they're not perfect. So you don't need to be perfect.
00:42:09
Speaker
And so essentially what was happening is I was working two jobs. I was the director of a black cultural center. And then I was also the director of a grant that was focusing on social justice. And I was supervising 15 people, literally 15 people. I was getting to work at seven and I was not leaving until 10. And then I would go to work on the weekends and spend hours working on like edits for my dissertation, like fellow applications. We felt like the application in a way got put on the back burner one too many times.
00:42:38
Speaker
just because of our sponsors and responsibilities. So then, four days before the application is due. Yes.
00:42:49
Speaker
I'm sitting at work and my supervisor calls the cops on a black student in a wheelchair. Oh, right, right, right. I end up getting pushed out of my job. This is a Friday that this happens. That application is due on Wednesday. And at this point, what stage is it in? It's like, let's say 99.9% done, but Regina gives intense feedback and Nolan gives feedback and I hadn't incorporated their feedback.
00:43:16
Speaker
because I was like, oh, I'll do it. But that weekend I remember because of like how traumatic having the cops come into a black cultural center, trying to show up for students and really thinking about like, dang, a place that was a place of safety for me at the University of Arizona, the Black Cultural Center is becoming a place where like, I'm seeing like police and like people with guns show up. And so I remember I slept that whole weekend. And I remember Regina texted me and was like,
00:43:44
Speaker
as much as you can, like just push through, like we have to work on Spencer, like your, your, your, your focus is Spencer, your focus is Spencer. So essentially like Regina, I remember was texting me throughout that weekend cause I was just depressed and I was having an identity crisis because again, like I was socialized into student affairs, right? I was a NASP enough fellow, right? Like I love the work that I did, but I was also already experiencing cognitive dissonance.
00:44:08
Speaker
The place that should have been a place of safety for not only me as a Black staff, but Black students, was just violated. And I slept that whole weekend, that Monday comes, I'm type, type, type, type, type. I'm type, type, type, type, type. I'm in the mode, right? That Tuesday, I go to campus to actually pick up a police report about the incident.
00:44:28
Speaker
And I am in the police station and I see the chief of police come out and everyone just start running. And then I started getting text messages from like, the police officer came out, right? The police chief. And I was like, what the fuck? Like, what's going on?
00:44:45
Speaker
And then I started to get text messages from all these black students like, there's a shooter on campus, there's a shooter on campus, there's a shooter next to ASSA. And so me being the former director, I'm like, what is happening? Remember, this is Tuesday. The application is due on Wednesday. A professor was murdered on our campus.
00:45:03
Speaker
right next to where the Black Cultural Center was. And then the university sent out text messages saying that the person had a cap and a book bag. So Black students in our campus were being harassed by cops, even though the suspect description did not meet. It was just racist. And so it was like, I'm continuing with my dissertation that thinks about issues of identity and power. I just experienced this awful, violent situation with cops, and now somebody is being murdered on our campus.
00:45:33
Speaker
And I need funding because I don't know what my life will look like if I can't find funding. Like just the options are loans, right? Like the option would have had to be a loan. And institutions just will institution. Like I don't even know how to say that more eloquently. Like there's just so much happening. And so that Wednesday it was due and I remember I got up really, really early
00:45:58
Speaker
Virginia de la men and Jamaica met me in office and all the shit started happening right before the application was due. Like you know how if you're on a mat and you're a word formatting when you like turn it into a word. What was essentially doing my application in Google.
00:46:15
Speaker
docs so then when I tried to convert it like all the citations were off like all the things that could go wrong went wrong and I would acknowledge that like the National Academy of Education like officers like Angie Harmon at that point like showed me grace because like I honestly whoever viewed my application showed me grace like my the application I submit it is badass I'm not gonna like discount the work that I did
00:46:41
Speaker
But there's a part in my application that says find citation. Like, do you know how many times Regina Dellerman told me as a grad student, like, stop doing find citation and just put the citation there? And then I'm submitting like a prestigious award with the freaking thing that says find citation. And I'm like, what?
00:47:06
Speaker
Essentially like all the things that were happening in that moment were happening and I was stressed out I was tired. I was angry. I was having an identity crisis and that's just like it would work, right? That's not dealing with like me having an incarcerated parent at that time and still supporting my dad and my brother, right? This isn't just the stuff that comes up in life because like life-wise this is just like
00:47:32
Speaker
what was happening at the University of Arizona in particular, that just was like, you're telling me not only that your cop, the cops come and storm the Black Cultural Center, but two days later, somebody was murdered on your campus in the same week. Yeah, a lot in that time come up unexpectedly. And all these things were thrown your way to make it even more challenging to reach that finish line. But it also sounds like, thank goodness, you had an incredible team of support.
00:47:57
Speaker
really lifting you up and saying, let's go, we're doing this, come to the office, let's go. I wanna ask for those who are interested in applying to the dissertation fellowship, even though you set the intention of, I'm gonna apply starting in April at AERA, about how much time do you think you really spent on the app? How much time do you think was really needed to write? And how many rounds of feedback did you get from your kitchen table?
00:48:23
Speaker
I would honestly say that if you're going to apply, I should have actually started writing in maybe January. So January of 2022, I should have started writing. I think some of the things also could have just been taken out of my, okay, this is such an important question. It's such an important question.
00:48:43
Speaker
I would honestly say if I could go back, I would have started preparing my application maybe in that January, knowing that it was due in October. But I don't think it would have been like super intense. Like I have to write every day. It would have been like, let me focus on this section, send it off for review and come back. You can have a process, meditate on Friday, go through more rapid feedback.
00:49:04
Speaker
Okay, good. So you're saying near to a year would be ideal for anyone who's been applying. Yes. And I also would say... How much time would you say you actually spent? Do you think you really wrote it in about a month? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Couple of months.
00:49:22
Speaker
It was a couple. It was a long time. It was a long time. So I think I had a great rep draft done, but what I needed to focus on and what I think my kitchen table and I'm going to come back to catch and table because what I talked about in terms of the kitchen table was just like faculty members. And it's not just about faculty. There were grad students who showed up for me, right? Like in my community.
00:49:42
Speaker
who are part of my kitchen table as well. And so it was easier for me to get feedback from them before I would go to my like faculty, which is an interesting concept. And I think that like, if you're in grad school, lean into your community, like lean into your kitchen table of other graduate students. So how many people would you say actually read your app before you submit it?
00:50:02
Speaker
I would say four people in terms of faculty and three people in terms of um yeah because as I talked about earlier when you're asking people ask for things that are specific so for example like when I was talking to Nolan I wasn't asking Nolan about like the introduction right or my methods I was talking to Nolan about my theory like I guess methods because I was talking about like working with Nolan about my theoretical contribution and then my significance to my scholarly significance
00:50:31
Speaker
Then when I was working with Regina, she was giving me overall feedback. So I had to be mindful of how was I engaging each person in their particular strengths? Not saying that faculty are good at everything, like y'all are, but y'all are also busy. So I was trying to be strategic.
00:50:48
Speaker
Karina, right, she, I really say this is a piece of advice that everyone should take to heart. You don't know who's going to read your application. So Karina is a quant scholar, right? And so I was very strategic to have Karina read my application because she's a quant scholar. And she was giving me feedback around like, I don't know what you just said here.
00:51:12
Speaker
which she would never say, but was like more eloquently, right? And so I was thinking about how is my work getting across to both, you know, reviewers who are qualitative, who are not qualitative, right? Because you don't know. And also like institutional ethnography, which is my method and methodology is not something that is real like utilized in higher education scholarship. So I had to really think about like, I might get someone that's reading my application that has never heard of institutional ethnography.
00:51:39
Speaker
And then when I relied on graduate students, my best friend, Roman Christiansen, she really just showed up for me just as a writing partner. And I would ask questions around syntax.
Importance of Community in Academic Success
00:51:52
Speaker
And then I had two really good friends at UCLA that we'd gone through the programs together, like Audrey, who was also a part of my kitchen table. And we would just write together. And it was like, hey, Bryn, this looks really good. Or just you need those friends who are going to pump you up.
00:52:07
Speaker
So she would like turn on Nipsey Hussle, right? Like, for me and I would just write. And I think your kitchen table is all about like, how are you engaging in everyone's strengths? You don't also have the same expertise and knowledge is actually a benefit when they have different ways that they can come to that paper and say, Hey,
00:52:25
Speaker
I don't know what this is. More context, give more of a definition. People in this field might not understand what that is and that can be very, very helpful. Did you send each of them a different Word doc to get feedback on or did you use just a Google doc and then everybody had access to the same document? How did you do that?
00:52:47
Speaker
I messed up on that because I did Google, but I gave everyone their own Google. So I still to this day have it. It's like, applications, fellowship applications, right? And then I have my Spencer Fellow application, Spencer NAD, and then the rest of them. And so for Spencer NAD, I did this thing where I just created their own, a copy of my application and just named it after who that person was.
00:53:15
Speaker
And I want to acknowledge that like also in the midst of like all the stuff that was happening, my kitchen table had to also start responding to crisis from black students because there was no longer a director. And so in that moment, Dr. Carol Brochine showed up for me as well. And so I remember having to go back to like the Word document and make another copy for her. And she's in TLS at the University of Arizona has no understanding of like, well, she has understanding of what higher education is, but is it like trained in like,
00:53:45
Speaker
the same things, right? And so individual Google document, I think the hard thing though was when I was getting competing feedback. Yeah. And then you get, you know, now you have like seven different documents with different feedback and you've got to try to now synthesize it all back to one document.
00:54:03
Speaker
Mm hmm. So then what I did is like what I would essentially do if I was getting reviewer feedback. So Dr. Williams taught me this early is like when you're getting feedback from reviewers and like the RNR process what I usually do
00:54:18
Speaker
is I'll break out my sections and it's like, okay, this is the feedback that I got an introduction. Okay. This is the feedback that I got into the literature review. Okay. And then I put each like reviewers comments. And so I did that method, right? So then I was able to see, because I'm a visual and a talker type of person, I could see, okay, where are the areas where folks are giving me the same feedback. And then there were moments where I got like off the chain feedback, right? Where like, I actually just did not agree with it. For example, I got feedback around,
00:54:48
Speaker
And you can see, I think sometimes, how am I trying to say this? Like you got feedback, but you really did not agree. Agree what? You had to push back on it. Yeah. And it was around like, I think I have put something in there, like in my fellowship application, like institutions of higher education are like racist. Like I know that, right? But there was feedback of like, okay, you maybe have described it, but how are you analyzing
00:55:17
Speaker
what you just said based on your theoretical framework and some of the other things right because I think it's not a thing I know because now I'm like in this and I'm thankful for the opportunity to share but when you're developing these and I think actually you can agree as someone who's also gotten prestigious awards
00:55:35
Speaker
There's so many people that are applying for these things so you have to think about like in that first paragraph or that first like introduction of what your how you're coming into your study like what is that cliffhanger and so one of the pieces of feedback that I got it wasn't a cliffhanger but time and time again and I picked this up by listening to other people and I remember I actually heard this advice at Spencer in San Diego
00:56:00
Speaker
when I heard someone else who was applying for a fellowship, when they were a finalist, and I could talk about what that process looked like, like how you know where you're at. And I heard someone say, they want to know how is your study making, like what type of contribution is your study making? And I think, again, because of socialization, because of how we put people in pedestals, I'm doing work on campus sexual violence, right?
00:56:25
Speaker
I was taught by Dr. Linder as a master's student who as well like like has paved the way in terms of like campus sexual violence research and higher ed and then Jessica Harris who was just like brilliant and so I remember when I was going into my like how was my study significant
00:56:41
Speaker
I was like, how am I making an argument, right? And it's not an argument against, and I had to reframe my brain, right? Because it wasn't an argument against their work, it was an argument about how my work was going to be additive to this, right? Of like, yes, they've done all these things, and this person has done this, but this is how my work fits in the middle. And so at that point, right, with campus sexual violence research, it was focused on an individual level, it was focused on a macro, and that work is more organizationally bound, right? Of like, what is actually happening when we think about safety?
00:57:10
Speaker
So in the feedback and things and the pieces around like where the focus is, there was three things that I focused on. And I'm actually, I have like something here. And so in my first, like when I'm introducing Ray, I'm talking a little about my study and I have like three sentences where I just go straight in so that I could bring the readers along. And I'm like, this inquiry, it makes a theoretical and policy contribution in this way.
00:57:39
Speaker
right? My work does this, right? It fills this empirical gap. And so I was very mindful of like, doing that at the beginning, instead of sometimes how we're trained as doctoral students doing that at the end, because the introduction or like in the project goals or in the beginning of that description of the dissertation or towards the end of the
00:58:02
Speaker
I did it in the introduction.
Fellowship Application Process
00:58:04
Speaker
I framed the problem. I introduced my theoretical conceptualization, which I'm sure we'll talk about. Then I was like, this is how my conceptualization is a theoretical and a policy contribution. This is how my work will fill an empirical gap. Then when I got to significant of study, I saw it as like,
00:58:24
Speaker
a sandwich, right? Like that nice little piece of bread where I was like, Linda and Jessica have done this, right? Con and Hersch have done this, but my work is an organizational analysis and this is how it fits. And it was beautiful. But again, if I didn't have my kitchen table, who gave me that feedback, right? If I wasn't willing to work through like perfectionism, I would have never been able to pick up these like little pieces that people were dropping.
00:58:51
Speaker
Like, imagine if I wasn't at San Diego being nosy and hearing someone else's conversation. Like, I was getting those appetizers. That's all I gotta say. Sorry, Spencer. Right. And how many times do you think your kitchen table read and gave feedback?
00:59:06
Speaker
Regina, I think read it the most because she's my advisor and she was also a writer letter. I met with Nolan twice and he gave feedback. Kenina gave me feedback once. Britt gave me feedback periodically whenever she could. But I think the person that read it the most was Regina. And I remember that because
00:59:25
Speaker
shit was hitting the fan. That Tuesday night, I gave my best draft that I could do. And then I remember like, oh shit, I still have so much feedback. So that Wednesday it was like, get to the office, team type and cry. And it was hard because it was like, I was team typing and crying on Pacific coast time with a 12 PM deadline, East coast deadline, right? Well, 12 PM Pacific standard time deadline.
00:59:50
Speaker
but I was so emotionally tired and I was carrying so much that I remember when I actually pressed submit. I can't even describe like what my body felt like because it was like it's submitted, but now it's the waiting game and no one prepares you for the waiting game. Okay.
01:00:06
Speaker
Before we talk about the way, and I know we're coming towards the end of the conversation, but I would like anything, any tips on organizing the application, how you do get a little bit, give us insight into sandwiching the significance, presenting that early on and also at the end. Any other tips or advice on just how you approached putting that application together?
01:00:30
Speaker
Yes, I have lots of tips. Okay, so, um, and I will also acknowledge that all these tips I'm giving you the great Regina Deliman gave me. And then, yeah, like she also has just taught me so much. Yeah, she's like amazing. She is so amazing. We have another conversations.
01:00:48
Speaker
later about advisors and the importance of advisors. So my pieces of things is Google works like with sharing documents, things like that. Always save your drafts. I remember like on this document, it says B9 final. I was on version nine of my fellowship, right? Yeah. Because every time I was like, okay, I'm ready. And then I was like, oh, should I need to go back? Because towards the end, you have to pull off
01:01:15
Speaker
Google or you'll be in the same situation where like my formatting was so off and it was like the crunch of time. So that's the piece of organization. I also relied on appendices in my application. So one of the things that I did is I showed a piece of my data because I entered my dissertation using social media data. So I put examples of the social media data that I analyzed in order to
01:01:38
Speaker
create my theoretical framework or theoretical contribution to research. And I think that was really good for the reviewers to see. Because if you're like, oh, I went on social media and I did this or I followed this hashtag, you're going to be like, okay. But them being able to see it was really good. I literally screenshot pieces of my data.
01:01:59
Speaker
from social media so I could like show them how it was like again thinking about this organizationally. Then I took my research questions. I had like my research questions on one side and then how each data collection method was helping answer that research question, which again helped because you got to think those reviewers are reviewing hundreds of applications, right? And so what are they going to remember?
01:02:24
Speaker
And then my final thing that I did, I actually, when I conceptualized the Campus Safety Apparatus, I didn't only conceptualize it in words, I visualized it. I worked with one of my dear comrades, Tahran Kenema, who is currently at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and she does a lot of art-based social justice work. And so she's a super badass photographer.
01:02:48
Speaker
And I remember being like, I can conceptualize this in my head, but art is not my forte. And so I remember being at her office with her and drawing my theoretical contribution. And then her helping me actually create it. And so I was also able to submit that. So then when the reviewers were reading my application, they're like, oh, when Brenda is talking about the campus safety apparatus and what it's actually doing, this is what she means.
01:03:17
Speaker
And so I would say my piece of advice is like, where you can lean on appendices so that you can say, see appendix X or see this, whatever. How many did you know or remember? Data and research questions, pieces of my data, and then my campus safety apparatus, three. Yeah, three editions. Because you can't get everything in 10 pages. No offense, Spencer, NAAD.
01:03:44
Speaker
Y'all, really? It's tight. But the appendices are unlimited.
01:03:50
Speaker
Yes. No way. I mean, there's room. There's room. So I want to say like, I appreciate my advisor for that because I'm taking her, like I took intro to qual with her and I loved it so much. I ended up taking like black feminist methodology and then I ended up taking like advanced qualitative research and doing all these like additional qual things that what I learned in Regina's class and intro, I was able to take into my other classes and then other students were like, Oh my God, where did you learn that? Where did you learn that? And it's like,
01:04:20
Speaker
Having a good, cool professor or a mentor that understands their qualitative work, it can either make or break through in the academy. It sounds like you presented this campus safety apparatus, which is your own theoretical framework based on different pieces of work that you combined, emerged together, and then you consulted with
01:04:47
Speaker
a friend and artist to help you represent that knowledge visually. But now that I like am in the discretating, it's getting in there like it's going to become even more visualized, right? Because with my, with institutional ethnography, right? It's the ruling relations, the power. And so now I'm at this kind of crossroads where it's like, how do I visualize power?
01:05:11
Speaker
right? Like, I'm hearing these stories, I'm hearing these qualitative pieces. And so I'm like, that's actually what excites me, right? Like that visual piece of like, here's what's happening, right? Here's how the campus safety apparatus is mediating safety, right? Based on like, yeah, so it excites me. I'm not an artist. I know you are. And that's why I think you're so cool. But yeah, so lean one,
01:05:37
Speaker
You only know what you know, and my Black auntie told me that. You only know what you know, and I know a little bit about a little bit, and that's all I know. When you don't know something, it's fine. So lean on your community. Any other tips you would recommend for students who are interested in applying?
01:05:53
Speaker
for organizing the application. We've touched on a lot of great points, timing, revision, organization, the significance section, designing your own methodology, the use of an appendix. I think some other pieces are the questions with Spencer.
01:06:11
Speaker
They have you submit like supplemental questions, like in 500 words or less, like it's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Like doing those questions is really hard. One of them was like, as a result of my study, and then you have to finish it and you get like 500 words. And it's like, how am I supposed to answer that? I would also say have fun with that question too.
01:06:30
Speaker
and have fun with those like open-ended responses and then be you like I remember naming like in my application or when I had to follow up right like so when you're on what's the word a finalist they reach out to you and they're asked they ask you like okay where you are
01:06:47
Speaker
where are you at in terms of like your data collection and things and I remember going back to like when I said I was gonna do and where I was because of like all the trauma and the fact that like my body when he literally went into like I was I was sick for months like months they reached out because you were a finalist but you didn't know yet if you had actually received the award and what's that wait time look like and
01:07:12
Speaker
So I submitted in October. I got an email like two weeks before ARA. The next ARA in Chicago. Yep. So like March, I was notified that like I was a finalist and they give you a week to respond to questions and update them where you are with your project. And so in my project, I had said like my original application, I was like, by October, I would complete all of my X, Y, and Z.
01:07:38
Speaker
Well, I got sick. I experienced violence. Black students were experiencing violence. Like, our university was in shambles. And so I had to be honest. Like, I wasn't able to get what I said done, but this is how I'm getting it done now. And this is how I'm getting it done with the support of my advisor or my community. And I think sometimes it's hard to be honest about where you're at because you want these folks to fund you. But I think honesty is the best policy. So
01:08:05
Speaker
I think just be honest. Just be honest. Don't try to be sneaky. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm right on target. No, be transparent. Say the FYZ has happened. I've had to shift, but this is what I'm doing to move forward and keep it pushing. Do you know how many people were finalists at this point? Do you know?
01:08:25
Speaker
I'm 65 and 65 people were finalists. The hardest thing was I went to AERA and they like, you're, they don't tell you. Who's other finalists are?
01:08:38
Speaker
Yeah, they don't tell you. And I also, again, because where I was situated, I told my community, I think I had told you at AERA that I was a finalist. But it was hard for me to tell people, right? It was really, really hard. And so I told it like a few people. And the reason why I didn't want to tell everyone was because I knew like,
01:08:59
Speaker
There was so much happening. I had applied for four fellowships and I was tired. I remember by the time I got to the Ford Foundation Fellowship, I had text my advisor and I was like, I don't think I can do this. I'm so exhausted and the only thing I've been doing is writing. Is it okay if I not submit this one and I'll just have to deal with whatever happens? And she just was like, Ren, I've seen you going and going and going. You got to take care of yourself. You deserve rest.
01:09:24
Speaker
and I appreciate Regina for that. So as ARA I'm there and the fellows like the prior year's fellows were getting like their you know presentations and I remember like I'm meeting them and I didn't tell them I was a finalist right and then again I hear about the Spencer
Celebrating the Spencer Fellowship
01:09:41
Speaker
party. I'm like
01:09:42
Speaker
And then I hear it's at, you know, the fancy, the Art Museum, their institute was Chicago. And I was like, oh, shoot. But this year they told people, if you're not on the guest list, you're not getting in. I made my way in.
01:09:57
Speaker
But I remember my advisor is there, right. And I'm like, Regina, I'm just gonna walk in. I'm just gonna act like they don't see me. I don't know how I made my way into this perception. But I remember like I started to just get like so nervous and so anxious and she pulled me to the side and she's like, Bren, I don't
01:10:14
Speaker
I don't give people compliments just to give people compliments, but like your work is so important and it's new and it's refreshing. Like be confident in what you've done because that's what's gonna propel you. And I said, yes, ma'am. So then I just started to talk, right? Started to meet people and I found myself like becoming confident about talking about my work. And I didn't know this at the time, but I was talking to someone that I later found out was like an officer.
01:10:41
Speaker
And I remember being like, yeah, like my work is going to change higher education, like being the nerdy like PhD candidate that I am not realizing like.
01:10:50
Speaker
Even though the officers don't have a saying, who actually is a finalist. But essentially, the Spencer reception was cool. I got to meet some really awesome people and scholars. And again, that food was amazing. It was amazing, y'all. I feel like Si, our Real Housewives, just sitting here talking about food. But it was so good. I'm not like Si, though. I'm not like Si.
01:11:17
Speaker
But yes, A.R.E. was fun. And then I remember the next day everyone was leaving. I still hadn't found out from Spencer and I was sitting in the middle of Starbucks, Michigan Avenue, and I got an email that I was a alternative for the American Association for Undergraduate Women. Okay, the other fellowship that you had been working on even prior to Spencer. Okay, good. Yes. And it was heartbreaking, y'all. So let's talk about those no's.
01:11:44
Speaker
It was freezing cold in Chicago. It started to snow. You remember, it started to snow. And I live in Arizona, so I was not prepared. And I just started crying, because everything that went wrong was starting to go wrong that day. And I remember just crying in Starbucks, just crying. And I remember texting Regina to update her texting Nolan, to update him texting Kenina, texting my community, like my people, right? And every one of them kept saying, it's fine. You're still a finalist for Spencer.
01:12:14
Speaker
put a smile on your face, rejection is tough, but you can do it. And I think like in that moment, like it was hard because when you grow up in foster care, when you experienced so much instability in life, right? Rejection fills, I feel like I can go into a therapy session right now. Like it is, it's rough, right? And you need people who are tender with you to say, it's okay, like fill that emotion. So I had had my time to process and I was fine. And then on 420,
01:12:43
Speaker
420 right? I was sitting at home and I remember joking around with my advisor. I said no matter where I am as soon as I hear from Spencer you're the first person I'm calling. I was on the toilet when I got the email from Spencer.
01:12:59
Speaker
So I'm mid-toilet and I get up and I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm about to FaceTime Regina. And it was Regina's birthday. It was my advisor's birthday. And I got to be like, you're a Z and a National Academy of Education Fellow. And I remember, yeah, it was like such a beautiful thing, like such a beautiful thing. And I just felt like so celebrated by her.
01:13:25
Speaker
And I just have such a tender relationship with her like someone that pushes me challenges me and it's been so interesting because of my dissertation study right I talked to survivors and I say what does safety look like for you right like what is safety and
01:13:41
Speaker
in those moments and thinking about standpoint and thinking about like the campus safety apparatus and what that is and how it's maintained like to be seen to be heard and to be understood in the academy is like the greatest gift right and that gift I've been able to experience with Regina and I can't say that about like every faculty member or every scholar that like I've come in contact with and so I'm excited because one of the things and one of the reasons why
01:14:08
Speaker
When I ended up finding out that, like, not only did I get the National Academy of Education Fellow, but I ended up actually ended up getting the National Association for Undergraduate Women's American Dissertation Fellowship Award. And I had to choose between both of them, which is so fucked up, like, as someone who grew up in immense poverty, who turns on $25,000? I'm just going to look like this on the screen, because, like, really,
01:14:34
Speaker
But what kept me in NAD was that mentorship opportunity, right? To be mentored by like scholars in the academy that like AUW didn't necessarily have. And to be able to be in this like real cohort method, cohort bill and engage with other scholars who are like also dissertating.
01:14:50
Speaker
So I've become friends with a girl who's doing this amazing, awesome project on educational resistance in Palestine. And I'm like, heck yeah, free Palestine, but also thinking about education, right?
Future Opportunities and Mentorship
01:15:05
Speaker
And then I just found out last week that my National Academy of Education mentor is the Lee Patel. Whoa.
01:15:14
Speaker
And this is someone who like I've read their work and they're like my sole parent that doesn't know I exist. Yes, but like you're so I'm like, I'm so excited because I remember like one time I had a quick conversation with me. I remember walking away and being like,
01:15:30
Speaker
They're like your everyday person like just human and so I'm excited to like experience that tenderness with like me and with you know this new doctoral student that I'm connecting with and the other ones that like I will be connecting with because again like to be seen to be heard and to be understood in the academy is such a beautiful thing and because of individualism sometimes right like
01:15:54
Speaker
I said this earlier, kids from the hood, I didn't get to dream as a kid. Dreaming was the only thing. And then when I remember, I would say, one day I'm going to do this. And my math teacher was awful to me. And I hate math still to this day because of it. But I remember in my doctoral coursework, I was like, I'm not just going to take stats. I'm going to take multivariate regressions. And so just because you wanted to not cultivate a dream,
01:16:19
Speaker
Doesn't mean like I stopped there, right? Like it might have not happened when I was you know at high school But now I'm a scholar that I can like read these like concepts around like stats and actually know what I'm like, you know reading and like understanding the data, right and so Individualism is a thief of joy in the Academy find your community It really just like focus on like being who you are. Oh my goodness. Thank you We're gonna have to pause there
01:16:45
Speaker
and hopefully bring you back on for another follow-up episode just to hear more about navigating that process, accepting the followship, and then hopefully hear more about how Spencer has helped you as a scholar. So definitely we'd love to have you back on in the future as an update episode.
Storytelling and Resource Sharing
01:17:04
Speaker
Thank you so much for coming on, Bren. You are an incredible storyteller and so vulnerable, so transparent.
01:17:11
Speaker
and candid, and I think it's really refreshing to listen and hear and learn from. Yes. So lastly, before I let you go, can you share any resources for listeners who are interested in your work or interested in writing for proposals? Yes. I have a few different recommendations or resources
01:17:32
Speaker
Number one, particularly for folks in higher education, it is okay to leave the bounds of higher education to go learn some stuff. So for example, like prior to me doing institution ethnography work, I think I have found one other scholar who had published around institutional ethnography
01:17:49
Speaker
in higher education, and that's KCF at the University of North Dakota or North Dakota State, one of those. And I remember reaching out to them and kind of understanding the method because I was really interested in like, you know, the correlations around power. And I really thought about like, how can I take this and think about it institutionally around sexual violence? And with that, you can only read so much. And if it's not like widely talked about, you have to think about how do you leave the bounds of higher ed? And so I sent the emails, right? I found like,
01:18:17
Speaker
Dorothy Smith, like the person who created institutional ethnography right and then other people have worked with her and then I found myself a part of like this international group of like graduate and PhD folks from across the world who are engaging with institutional ethnography so in the UK and in Canada and other places like institutional ethnography is like widely used.
01:18:37
Speaker
And so there are moments where I'm getting up at 7 a.m. so I can go to these mentoring talks, but it's really helped me to really understand the method and also understand the confines of the method and how my work and how my framework and what I'm bringing will expand that and rethink about it, rethink it in a little bit-ish way.
01:18:56
Speaker
Some of the other resources is I think that it's important for you to breathe a little bit with writing. I purchased a book called They Say, I Say. It was like $5. It's like one of the newer, it was one of the older iterations of the book, but it's not really good for me to go back when I am actually making the arguments to figure out
01:19:18
Speaker
how am I not using the first introduction every time I'm talking about a particular point? And so it's also like helped my writing in many, many ways because it's kind of like at the sources, but for writing and there's also like prompts and stuff. So it's like, if you're making an argument, if you're making a comparison, like just like basic level writing. And I read the book in like maybe three days and then I've have it like tabbed. It's like my new APA manual like source.
01:19:45
Speaker
or APA manual, right? Like my APA manual is like about to fall apart. Like this book is now about to fall apart. Other resources, again, engage in the work. So if I'm doing work on abolition, right, I need to make sure that I'm staying up to date with abolition. And I'm also reading scholars outside of higher ed. Like, yes, I'm reading and engaging with like Charles H. Davis's work, right? But I'm also leaving education and thinking about like, Derika Purnell, you know, Mark Lamont Hill, who I had the pleasure of meeting at the
01:20:14
Speaker
socialism conference who does anthropology cultural work which is very connected to like institutional ethnography and so I guess like in short like read you know like there's a joke that I would always say when I was you know supervising folks I've like some people just don't read you can tell and in the academy in the academy we have whole ass people with PhDs and who are faculty members that don't read but we'll get up on a stage and talk about that theory or that concept so
01:20:43
Speaker
release yourself from the bounds and the constraints of your specific academic discipline and move elsewhere. Nice. Yeah. Okay. Tell the listeners where they can find you for anyone who's interested in getting ahold of you.
01:20:56
Speaker
Yes. For folks who want to stay connected, you can just feel free to send me an email. I created this email in high school and I still have it, BrendaLeeAnderson10 at gmail.com. That's the email that I stay up to date with because at some point I'll be off to a new institution. If you want to find me on Twitter or X with Twitter, you can find me at BrendaLeeXO, V-R-E-N-D-A-L-E-E XO. And I would just let you know, as it says in my bio, I'm usually there for the secret sneaker drops. I'm a sneaker hat.
01:21:26
Speaker
But if you want to engage, I like stuff. You know, I'm a fake social media person. And then I am on Instagram and you can find me at BrenleeXO, so B-R-E-N-L-E-E-X-O. And I also have a community of grad students that I write with on a weekly basis. And so if you're interested in just being in community with, or you need support or feedback or someone to make a really good playlist for you, reach out. Like, you need me to be your high person, I got you.
01:21:54
Speaker
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining Willing to Learn and sharing your wisdom and your experiences with listeners. Really appreciate it. Thanks.