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Empowering Voices with Dr. Van Lac on Youth Participatory Action Research
20 Plays11 months ago
In this episode of Willing to Learn, we explore the realm of Youth Participatory Action Research (YPAR) with Dr. Van Lac, drawing from her insightful paper, 'The Good, the Bad and Ugly: an Autoethnographic Journey on Doing Participatory Action Research as a Graduate Student'. Dr. Lac shares her experiences navigating the intricacies of YPAR as a graduate student and now as an Associate Professor at the University of Illinois, Chicago. The conversation illuminates the challenges and triumphs of participatory research, emphasizing the crucial role of mentoring young researchers.
Throughout, Dr. Lac reflects on her journey from high school teacher to academic, offering rich insights into the intersections of education, research, and personal growth. She concludes with practical advice for aspiring YPAR practitioners, underscoring the importance of this approach in fostering inclusive, transformative educational practices.
Episode Resources:
- The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: An Autoethnographic Journey on Doing Participatory Action Research as a Graduate Student - Link
- YPAR – Youth Participatory Action Research - Link
- Grassroots community organizing for education justice SIG – link
- Raza Studies: The Public Option for Educational Revolution - Link
Dr. Van Lacsocial and contact:
- @dr_vanlac
- [email protected]
Willing To Learn Resources:
- Instagram - Dr. Ashley D. Domínguez @ashddominguez
- Instagram - Willing To Learn @willingtolearnpodcast
- Email: [email protected]
- Produced by: Jeffrey Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Dr. Van Lack and Discussion Topic
00:00:06
Speaker
This is Willing to Learn. Welcome to Willing to Learn, Dr. Van Lack. How are you doing today?
00:00:26
Speaker
I am doing well. How are you? I'm doing great.
Impact of 2018 Publication and Academic Background
00:00:29
Speaker
So today we are going to be discussing your published piece in 2018 in the Journal of Urban Education, The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly, an autoethnographic journey on doing participatory action research as a graduate student.
00:00:43
Speaker
And actually, I don't think I've even told you this myself, but there was a piece that I co-authored with two other scholars. And we use this text as an exemplar, almost like a model of a way to think of how we can look at our own stories and reflect on that and be able to write. And we found much inspiration from this piece. How are we?
00:01:10
Speaker
Well, I'd love to hear that. I think as a scholar, you write and you publish and you send out to the universe and you just don't know how it impacts people.
00:01:19
Speaker
No, yeah, I know. I wish I should have. It's like one of those things too, when you start meeting someone you don't want to come across as like, super fangirl or like, by the way, I've really read this piece. Like, I've really read a lot because I like the organization and the structure. You're like, okay, let me warm up. Let me not scare her off quite yet, right? I've definitely had fangirl moments with senior scholars, so I get it.
00:01:45
Speaker
But before we get into the paper, which I'm really excited to talk about, if you don't mind just sharing with our listeners a little bit about who you are and what led you to doing this type of work. Yeah, absolutely. So where do I begin? So I'm currently at the University of Illinois Chicago as an associate professor. Previously, I was at an institution in Texas. And before that, I was getting my PhD at Wisconsin.
00:02:11
Speaker
And before that, I was a high school English teacher in Richmond, California for eight years. And I think for myself, I grew up in Oakland, California, attended K-12 public schools and really experienced firsthand what educational inequities looks like. And so for me, being able to do this work as a professor and a scholar is an honor, but also a social responsibility that I have and I feel. And so I
00:02:40
Speaker
I'm just happy to hear that my work can actually be impactful. So thank you.
Research Agenda and Discovery of YPAR
00:02:46
Speaker
Of course. Was there, I mean, obviously when we start graduate school, some are very focused and they know exactly what they want to study.
00:02:55
Speaker
Some take time, they go down different paths, they change, they pivot. I was curious how selecting your research agenda, how did that come about? Why did this become important to you to pursue not only in your master's but also as a doctorate and now as a tenured faculty?
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, so I think I have a very interesting story in the sense that so I actually applied to 10 different graduate programs and I got accepted to one. And that happened through Wisconsin. And then when I started at Wisconsin, I actually thought I wanted to study charter schools because that was the context that I worked in. And but I didn't like I wasn't
00:03:39
Speaker
passionate about it. I wasn't like feeling it in the way that I probably should and so I really spent the first two years of my graduate studies really just reading a lot and it was during this time that I stumbled across like the the art of critical pedagogy and also revolutionizing education and when I read those books I was like what it's possible to do research with and alongside young people because that's one of those things that I really missed about being a graduate student was that I
00:04:08
Speaker
As a graduate student, I was removed from the classroom for the first time in like eight years. And so I missed that connection with young people. And so when I found out and discovered what YPAR was, I was like, this is awesome. So that really was like the doing that reading and really engaging in that work. And I was like, this is this is my jam. And I advise my students a lot, my doc students that when you're trying to find your topic, like this is something that you're going to
00:04:36
Speaker
You're going to be in it for like a while, right? So you want to make sure that it's a topic that you truly love. That's great. So you found these books. What about any mentors in particular? Did you have opportunities to work with anyone in your graduate studies that helped shape or influence your direction?
Mentorship and Influential Scholars
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so I happened to work with John Diamond, who was at Wisconsin at the time, and he was connected with Urban, which stands for, I think, Urban Researchers Research Base, something network. I'm sorry, Urban, I don't remember the exact
00:05:15
Speaker
Anyways, so, and through my work with John, like I was helping to support some urban conferences and it was at this conference that like I met Michelle Fine, Ben Kirchner, Mark Warren, like all these like seminal scholars that do community-based research. And so I think having those opportunities to work with, like it was sort of one thing leading to the next. And so I feel really fortunate and lucky that I had those opportunities. Yeah, that's great.
00:05:41
Speaker
What advice would you have for graduate students who are maybe in a similar position where maybe they feel they've gotten closer to their research agenda? They've read books. Maybe they have connections. They don't have connections. What do you think would help them fine tune and get to that? Because like you said, we're going to be here a while. You're going to be spending a lot of time. Is there any advice you'd recommend to help get to that point a little sooner or faster?
00:06:11
Speaker
Yeah, I would say one for sure is just do the work in terms of the readings, right? So what's the literature? What's out there? What piques your interest? And just read, read, read as much as you can, especially those first few years. And that's why coursework is so helpful. I also think, to a degree, there's a level of hustling that you have to do, I think, as a grad student in seeking opportunities, right?
00:06:35
Speaker
I'm just going to put a plug in for her. So I'm the chair of the grassroots community youth organizing for educational justice SIG through ARA. And we do host mentoring sessions like once a semester. And we have a business meeting. And it's just these opportunities where we have scholars that we're trying to connect with, especially with emerging graduate students. And so these special interest groups may be a really nice place for you to also, as a grad student,
00:07:04
Speaker
you know, network and connect with scholars. No, actually, I went to the one for sure. I remember in San, I want to say San Diego. Yeah. We had a good attendance. Yeah, there was good attendance. And there were also youth there at the event able to present on some of the research and the work that they've been doing in the community. So that was also really nice. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:07:28
Speaker
Let's get into the paper.
Genesis and Challenges of YPAR Project
00:07:30
Speaker
Just like our origin stories for our own careers, it's funny how a paper can have an origin story as well. It's like, where did this idea come from? How did this project come about? So what was that first seed for? I wanted this project or this, this is paper that I had in mind. I had been doing a ton of reading on YPAR.
00:07:55
Speaker
And I was just so in awe of the work that had been done, right? And I'm sure we could just a laundry list of scholars that have done some amazing work around Y Parr.
00:08:07
Speaker
And it always focused on just how awesome it was, which I understand in terms of participatory action research, perhaps not getting the type of respect that maybe traditional empirical quantitative studies by a university member would.
00:08:28
Speaker
I was really, what I was really interested in was I had just started a YPAR project for my dissertation and it was really messy. It was ugly at times and I didn't feel like there was any scholar really being very transparent about the messiness and the ugliness of it. And so it really just started as a conversation that I had with Michelle Fine because
00:08:55
Speaker
Let me see, I had met her at Urban and then she was scheduled to come to Wisconsin for a talk and I reached out to the organizer. I was just wanting, you know, some one-on-one time out with Michelle. She was very gracious in doing so and we just sat and talked and she was like, I think you should write about it. I was like, really? So that's kind of how it started. So it was actually very organic and I think that
00:09:21
Speaker
I don't know it's it's great to see examples of why par in terms of its, you know, impact on youth and communities and these issues that you know that are
00:09:34
Speaker
a focus. And I also think it's important to kind of, you know, sort of pull the curtains back and let let's see what's going on behind the scenes. Right. And making it transparent in terms of there's some really wonderful, powerful and amazing parts about doing white part, but it's also really messy and it also can be quite ugly. So when you were going through the literature, were you just like, OK, I don't feel like we're being as vulnerable or as transparent as we could be.
00:10:02
Speaker
And I get why, I think, especially if you're an emerging scholar or if you're trying to build your career, why be vulnerable? There's no incentive in the academy to be vulnerable. We want to just publish, publish, publish, do what you need to do. But I just felt like for myself,
00:10:27
Speaker
I didn't mind because I think it's important, especially for up-and-coming scholars to see, like, this is the reality of this work and, you know, no one YPAR project is the same as another, but I think we need to have these conversations, right, in terms of how YPAR can actualize in all of its messy glory, right?
00:10:53
Speaker
So did you already have these ideas in mind when you drafted up your dissertation proposal? You are submitting IRB? Did you already have these ideas of mind of a potential focus? Or is it something that came about as you were moving through the process?
00:11:12
Speaker
Whoo, it was definitely sort of, I think I could say it was very organic in terms of how it happened. So also at my institution, in my department, I was the second one in terms of our department had traditionally done these monograph dissertations. And I had one other colleague who actually wrote a three article format for her dissertation. And I was like, I want to give that a try because guess what? The publishing manuscripts will be the currency in the job market.
00:11:40
Speaker
And because of that, I knew entering my dissertation phase that I would want to think about this work that I'm doing and think about at least three articles that it could translate to. And the third article, this is actually from my dissertation. So it's the third piece to it.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, and it made sense because a lot of this third piece is really like, okay, this has happened. Let's reflect on this experience and that ability to process and critically reflect, I think is so important as a scholar. Okay, great. Would you mind sharing now a little bit about the project itself and how you were able to gain entrance and work with the young people and what that's like setting that up from scratch?
00:12:28
Speaker
So this is also through the work with John Diamond that he was also part of a school university partnership and as his graduate assistant I would sit in on meetings and I wanted to be a part of the steering committee for this particular partnership.
00:12:45
Speaker
And one of the prongs of this partnership included developing a pipeline program for minoritized youth to become teachers. And for myself, having been a teacher and wanting to seek opportunities to work with youth, I kind of threw my hat in the ring and was like, hey, I'd like to lead this. And so they let me do it. And I planned a three-week sort of summer institute with the young folks I worked with.
00:13:12
Speaker
And at the end of that experience, they wanted to study the racial disparities that were occurring in their school district. And the idea was for that year to have a year-long WIPOC project where we're focusing on this particular topic.
00:13:30
Speaker
as we know, life doesn't always go as planned. And my visions of doing this like white part project where young people get to be the drivers and yes, this is a racial equity oriented partnership. So of course everyone's going to be on board. And that was not the case at all. And so as, and I write about this as a graduate student, how like, and you know, as a graduate student, you're not a tenure professor, you know, so you there's, there's definitely a power dynamic and differential that you have to
00:14:00
Speaker
account for. And so when I went to my supervisors to tell them, you know, at the university side and at the school district side, hey, this is what the odd people want to study. And they're like, no, that's a bad idea, you know, for lots of reasons. And one of them is, you know, protecting the image of the school district partnership and not wanting to sacrifice any donations that, you know, if we piss off somebody, you know, who is a donor because we're doing this work,
00:14:27
Speaker
And so that was a really hard pill to swallow as a graduate student and, you know, trying to reconcile that while I'm also trying to support young people in terms of what they want to do, right? But how do you do that in this context that's very much wired and very traditional ways of looking and seeing things? And so that was really hard. And I actually am not sure if I'm answering your question. What was your question again?
00:14:51
Speaker
No, as far as getting the project started, you did start on just the idea of being able to work with the John Diamond, starting this pipeline for a minoritized youth, a three-week summer institute, and then you proposed for a year-long wipeout project.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah. Was there a second part to your question, though? As far as how did you go about conceiving the idea? Because I'm guessing through your relations with the faculty, with this initiative, you're like, huh, maybe this could be my dissertation study. I think it goes back to the whole hustling thing, right? No one's going to just drop this idea to your doorway, right? So it's like, I really did feel like I had to, OK, I need to put myself out there, attend these meetings, let's see what happens. And then, OK, I'm going to throw my hat in the ring, see what people think.
00:15:36
Speaker
And for me, it was sort of as these moments are happening, it's like, OK, what can I contribute to this? And also, what is my expertise? And could this be a good fit in terms of, yeah, I need a dissertation site. This is a place that needs this particular service. OK, can this work? And can this coalesce? And so I mean, that's really how I
00:16:03
Speaker
I did it as a grad student, so. And so getting it off the ground, you seem to have support. It seemed like it was mutually beneficial for both parties and everything was good to go. Because I know sometimes people experience a lot of roadblocks, like especially working with K through 12 institutions, waiting for schools to be on board, for district approval. It seemed in this way that there was some preliminary support. I know later you talk about
00:16:30
Speaker
like road-locking, you top it for research lines and other obstacles you face. But as far as, and which kind of goes back to your point of like how YPAR can be romanticized and a lot of people are like, oh, this is good. This is great. Actually, this will make us look great. This is perfect for the initiative that we're trying to
00:16:52
Speaker
you know put out there. So I was curious like the temperature so to speak of what it was from the people around you when you wanted to get this part started. Yeah there was definitely excitement and interest and I'm not quite sure though if the adults in the space really knew what I was doing.
00:17:13
Speaker
And I think when we talk about like racial equity, right? Like I think equity gets, I mean, there are so many ways that you can interpret that, right? And how it's been just like social justice, right? How that's been commodified or used in different ways that actually like
00:17:29
Speaker
your movements talking about social justice and this movie over here is like, what, what is it really? And so I, I actually think that they gave me so much license in terms of creating the curriculum for the educators Institute, which happened in the summer. And also the Y part project as a whole is that I'm actually not quite sure how, what's the word I'm looking for? Intensely we studied racial equity and how intensely
00:17:55
Speaker
we were working towards building a racial consciousness as a group. I'm just not sure if the adults in those spaces knew exactly what we were doing, if they would have been completely okay with it. But I think because they gave me so much creative license, I went with it. And so I think because of that, though, lo and behold, this is what students actually want to study. They want to study how disproportionality and discipline is impacting Black and Latinx youth in the school district, right?
00:18:24
Speaker
But that was too much for the adults in those spaces to accept and handle. And so that's one of the roadblocks that we had as a result. Do you remember what type of feedback in particular that you received as what potential effects or consequences would ensue if the youth were to continue in that line of research?
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think I got responses like, well, why? I don't understand why they have to study this. That was one. And then the other one was, you know, I'm just not sure if, you know, we're just not there yet as a community to be able to embrace whatever may come out of the study. So I think it was more of the fear of the unknown, right? And wanting to protect the image that they're trying to create.
00:19:14
Speaker
District, so.
Positive Experiences and Learning from YPAR
00:19:16
Speaker
Okay. You talked about this a little bit, but you said about this idea of like the curriculum. What are we reading? What are our activities? How was that approached?
00:19:27
Speaker
I really wanted my students to have an opportunity to examine the root causes of education or racial inequities. So it really did mean, okay, we're going to actually read an excerpt from Beverly Tayden's book about how do you define racism, right? And then we're going to watch this documentary about
00:19:48
Speaker
The legacy of racism in our country historically and its impact, like, for example, redlining, right? My students learned about redlining during that time and how that informs housing segregation and also educational segregation, right? Because I think my aim was, if I'm trying to prepare this next generation of minoritized educators, I want them to have this critical consciousness so they can
00:20:14
Speaker
analyze and understand why things are happening the way they are in their schools and in their neighborhoods. Despite the title and despite the romantic notions that we've discussed that can often appear in YPAR work, there was good. You have a subsection titled The Good, Learning from Young People. So can you give us a little bit of behind the scenes of some of the positive experience, some of the pluses, the strengths of the study?
00:20:40
Speaker
I mean, I was a high school English teacher, right? And so I do enjoy working with young people. And I think they enjoyed working with me, I believe. And so I'm getting feedback from them in terms of what they learned from the program and not just like content wise, right? But I think just trying to
00:21:05
Speaker
be a supportive adult in their lives was very meaningful for me and I think also for them as well and also just learning about the experiences that they have as minoritized youth you know in this particular school district and context and I was really moved at the levels and depths in which they would open up to me about the challenges that they faced and
00:21:28
Speaker
I think it really just, you know, it's really the human element of this work that I just love so much. And that's why I feel so compelled about YPAR. There's actually a line here that you write, quote, graduate school alone proved a hollow existence at times. Insulated in my academic bubble, I yearned for opportunities to connect with young people again.
00:21:49
Speaker
end quote. And this actually really resonated with me because I dealt with a similar experience being as a K through 12 teacher because again I was also at a charter school in Texas so they moved me around depending on what grade when combined classes because everything changed every year.
00:22:06
Speaker
So I was so used to being in practice that when I first started as a PhD student, it felt like all I was doing was reading in theory. And I know that was incredibly paramount and important, but I felt a disconnect from the connection that theory, how theory can move into practice and how practice can inform theory.
00:22:26
Speaker
And I remember discussing it with a first advisor, actually, and saying that I like, I miss this, like I want to find an opportunity. Mind you, I might have been only in my first year. I want to find an opportunity or an organization to work with. And I was strongly advised and told no, that you need to become a researcher now. And you can just teach another time or you can
00:22:54
Speaker
work with us another time. Essentially, you should be in my office like 40 hours a week doing research on top of your coursework. This is the messaging that I received.
00:23:05
Speaker
And I think that's the model of graduate studies, especially if you're pursuing your PhD and trying to be an academic, right? I think there are other folks who are trying to really disrupt that image that I don't think you have to bifurcate yourself from communities and youth in order to be a scholar in the academy, right?
00:23:29
Speaker
see the challenge of doing that if you have obligations with your coursework and you want to do this in the in communities, but if it nourishes your soul and buoys your spirits and grounds you, I think there's ways to
00:23:43
Speaker
to go about it. I don't think this is a zero sum game. I think it helped give me a why again. Because sometimes, especially when you're isolated, you're doing all this stuff alone in many ways. It's like, wait, what am I doing?
00:24:00
Speaker
What's the goal here? Yeah. And it's such a contrast from, you know, when we're school teachers, where you're feeling surrounded by students all the time, all day for a seven, eight hours straight. And then to go from that to like, OK, you're in a cubicle sitting in the Graduate Student Center, you know, reading or, you know, I remember that feeling very jarring to me as well and lonely. And, you know, it was it was definitely hard like to get into that rhythm of what graduate student life is.
00:24:30
Speaker
But it sounds like you were able to push through that and go, like you said, be a hustler, make contacts with people, reach out, attend the meetings. So for graduate students now who might be feeling like, what's my why? Or what community am I trying and hoping that my research on the other side of this is going to impact? What advice would you share with them if they're feeling the same way?
00:25:00
Speaker
Finding peers at other institutions, so I didn't know a whole lot of folks at my graduate institution that was doing YPAR, but there were folks outside across the country that was doing this work. And so reaching out to them, I also think
00:25:18
Speaker
And I get it, like as a graduate student, you may not feel super comfortable reaching out to a taught a scholar in the field that does this work, but you may be surprised at how generous some people are with their time and energy. And even if it's, you're at this conference in the spring and this person's going to be presenting, maybe go to their presentation at the very end, introduce yourself or something, or
00:25:45
Speaker
reach out via email and, hey, can we get a cup of coffee? I'd love to learn more about your work. This is what I'm thinking. And I do feel fortunate that there have been a very supportive circle of scholars who have helped me along the way as a scholar. But I do think it does take some initiating, perhaps. And of course, not every scholar is going to be, oh, yeah. But I do think there's a lot of really nice people who are willing to help.
00:26:13
Speaker
Yeah, you don't know until you you ask, right? Email is like a low I feel like email is still a low state.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah, activity, right? Yeah. And, you know, and I'm definitely not like, I'm not an extrovert by any means, but I do think there's a degree of like, if you, if this is what you want, you really just got to like, okay, take some risks, you know, reach out, you know, see, let's see who's, who's, who's around, who's willing to, to connect. And so, yeah. And you just don't know, right? Unless you try. Okay, good.
00:26:48
Speaker
Okay, back to the good in the PAR project. You mentioned in the findings that the young people started reporting on various ways their awareness of social justice issues had deeply influenced and shaped them and how they wanted to share that knowledge with other people. Oftentimes, and I've written about this as well, but there's an overemphasis on external transformation or how
00:27:13
Speaker
It's changing policy, it's changing practice, it's changing laws, right? And sometimes these internal transformations, in this case, critical consciousness or advancement of knowledge can be overlooked. What did you notice about any small changes or micro moments you can share in regards to how the youth described their mind and how it's changed over the course of the project?
00:27:40
Speaker
off the top of my head. It's been how many years has it been since I may not be able to pinpoint, but I did do like some extensive writing about what I feel or about capturing students' perspectives and their experiences. And I think anytime we talk about race,
00:27:59
Speaker
We had a few white students in that group and I know that that was tough for them, but honestly, them getting exposed to this content now while you're in high school, I think they're going to be in a much better place when they eventually go into a teacher ed program and hopefully talk about this.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah. And I think a part of what I appreciated about that time was just giving students the space to talk about these things. Like I remember we had this one conversation about like, is it okay to tell a racist joke, right? Or is it okay for like this group of boys to like flash on each other and clown one another and and say these
00:28:44
Speaker
negative things to each other because they're roasting, right? They're just engaging. But where do you have those opportunities or spaces as a K-12 student to really talk about these social dynamics, right? And so I think this particular institute and having carving out this time for students, I think it was a neat time for them to just talk about the ways in which they make sense and understand these social dynamics in their lives.
00:29:12
Speaker
Because it's not happening in school, I don't think so. Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's definitely true. Not as much opportunity in traditional schooling. Did you feel, I mean, on that topic, did you feel a sense of liberation? You said you had more creative licensing. Did you notice that with the youth as well, that maybe they felt more free or able to talk about things in a more liberated way versus some other spaces?
00:29:39
Speaker
Yeah, I will say this. Having been a K-12 teacher versus being a Y-par facilitator, there's just so many more bureaucratic obligations as a teacher, right? Between like taking attendance and grades and everyone here. I mean, you know, I took attendance too, just for because the supervisors needed that.
00:29:59
Speaker
I think there is more space. It can be a liberatory space because we're not confined to like, okay, we got to take this benchmark today. Let's make sure we hit up on these standards, which I felt like I did have to do as an English teacher. And so there was definitely creative license. And as I mentioned earlier, I don't think anyone's actually paying attention to what I was doing.
00:30:18
Speaker
So I was able to be very creative. And yeah, we're going to talk about this. Yeah, I'm going to frame it as a critical race pedagogy curriculum, because this is what I think if I'm trying to generate the next generation of critical educators of color, I want them to have these dispositions. So
00:30:35
Speaker
Okay, good. So let's move to the bad, the tensions that surface from daily practices. You foreshadowed a little bit about how some of the white students, you're like, oh, yeah, they probably did feel a little uncomfortable running some of the topics. How does that necessarily get portrayed to you or to other students? Was it body language, verbal response?
00:30:56
Speaker
So I know that there's some white students that had a hard time with what we're talking about because I had this anonymous feedback form that they filled out. And so I definitely saw that in the data. But I think a lot of what the bad that I talked about in the article actually refers to sort of the
00:31:13
Speaker
The tensions between for you as a YPAR adult facilitator, knowing that the big picture and the goal of this, but we only have 10 sessions to achieve this. And only this amount of time within each session, how do you make sure to
00:31:30
Speaker
like honor the work that your young people are doing and also the lives that they lead, the complicated, you know, tensions that they experience as teenagers because of this various context that they're in with what I want them to do within this YPAR space, right? And so I just remember moments where I was like, ain't nobody in the room listening to me right now.
00:31:52
Speaker
And like, what am I gonna do about it, right? It's like, how are you gonna try to lead this group when in this particular exercise, if no one's paying attention? And so these are the moments where I was like, okay, man, you got to take a step back, you know, see what feels see the what's the pulse in the room, what's going on and why and
00:32:08
Speaker
forego maybe what you have planned or what you wanted to do because the priority should be the well-being of the young people that you're working with. And that was really hard for me, especially as a classroom teacher. Yeah. Yeah. I think people probably sometimes forget how much
00:32:27
Speaker
planning an organization that goes into being a classroom teacher, how confined you are to a schedule and to the policies of who be at power. So it's almost like, how can you not have that a part of your positionality coming in?
00:32:42
Speaker
as a first-time wipe-out facilitator? How can that not shape and inform your practice? And then how can you use those tools and skills as an advantage, but also resist against it? You find those tensions in like, I want to do this, but maybe I should do this.
00:33:02
Speaker
Absolutely. You think it took a while for me to figure out like the, you know, for my young folks who have spent all day sitting in classrooms for them to come to the university and sit in the classroom. And then I'm going to lecture you about field notes. And it's like, who the hell wants to listen to that at 4 p.m. in the afternoon, right? And so trying to find like engaging and interactive ways for them to learn about, you know, whatever the research topic is.
00:33:29
Speaker
That was, for me, I had to push myself in terms of that. And just negotiating moments. And just as a classroom teacher, you have this vision of this lesson plan. And this is going to be great. And then there's a grenade that gets dropped in on the middle of nowhere. Where did this come from? And then you've got to address that, because that's being responsive. And I've always just been this really structured, organized teacher.
00:33:57
Speaker
and to have to forego the structures that I'm holding onto because it just doesn't make sense in that moment for the young people. And so being adaptable and flexible to that was something that I had to learn. So I'm much better now. Right.
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I'm similar as well. I definitely like to have a plan. I like to have options. But what I hope I believe is my strength is that I'll go off script. It doesn't have to stick to it. I was like, I have a bunch of ideas, and maybe we'll do them, maybe not.
00:34:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's something that's also helped me is like don't You don't feel like you have to be on script and stay on script the whole time like yeah based on what's happening in people's lives based on the conversations that can be very telling if the young people are really passionate and Enveloped by talking about this part. Maybe that means that's a direction. We're gonna go in the research, right? Or maybe like maybe field nodes stay you didn't think was gonna like
00:35:02
Speaker
B is riveting but actually someone has an experience about this and they or now we found out that we can do field notes this way and like huh I'm interested to more know more about that right exactly so just being open to that and I don't think I think because there aren't like there's no manual in terms of how do you run there shouldn't be right how do you write my part of project or why part group like because it's rooted in like
00:35:30
Speaker
supposed to be an organic experience right and so yeah these are just sort of like i just kind of had to fumble my way through it before i figured it out so yeah but similarly to your point as a grad student or early scholar who's interested in learning about ypar and there's no manual you're like wait but like
00:35:50
Speaker
What are you doing? And that's been actually one of my complaints that I'll, when I read sometimes, it's like, but like, what are you doing? Like, what's, like, I get it if it's, it's moving and it's this and that. Like, what does the day look like? What are the activities? What are the questions? Like, what does that look like in motion? And sometimes that's hard to get from an academic article, right?
00:36:13
Speaker
No, and I don't think you, right? Because most of the articles are actually like, this is what the Y Project was about. This is the findings. This is our action plan, right? And so the behind the scenes stuff is just not accounted for and, you know, for various reasons. So let's move on to the ugly, the constraints of working with institutions.
IRB Challenges and Institutional Constraints
00:36:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:38
Speaker
Tell me your thoughts. No, one of them being involved IRB. So while this is also the tricky part of being a part of a school district university partnership was that we had to actually go through like a data agreement, right? In terms of because this was technically through that partnership, I didn't own the data. Like whatever data I collected, it was
00:37:04
Speaker
data that the partnership collected. And then on top of that, I happen to be at an institution that does not believe that youth under the age of 18
00:37:14
Speaker
can collect data. And so whatever data they collected, because I had these visions of, and I've seen other YPAR scholars do this, where they're like co-authoring with their youth researchers. And I thought that would be a really neat opportunity, especially for folks who want to, maybe they want to do some writing about this work.
00:37:37
Speaker
I actually had a really hard time with the IRB at my institution because they were resistant to youth as researchers and youth as writers, and so they were not trying to support me in that type of way.
00:37:55
Speaker
And so I was such a troublemaker with IRB like they knew me by my fifth name there. This is a huge institution. I had so many meetings with IRB and so that's I think I would say advice for a graduate student is get to know your IRB in terms of how they approach youth research because I've been at other institutions where it's like, yeah, you know,
00:38:15
Speaker
youth can write with you. Yeah, you can collect the data or you can write about the work with the youth about their research, but not every institution is like that. And that is so interesting because literally the whole epistemology and rationale for doing VIPAR is to validate young people's experiences.
00:38:38
Speaker
and their capacity as researchers. And then you're operating within a institution and system that makes that completely null and contradicts it entirely. And now you have to find a way to navigate in between it.
00:38:53
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Especially as a grad student, because you got to reconcile like, these are the institutional constraints, right? Even though they're not something that I'm not, I don't want to, I don't, I don't want to adhere to that. But I have to, if I want to actually, you know, get this dissertation written and published, right? And so it was, it was a very disappointing, right? But also just, like, these are the realities as a grad student.
00:39:18
Speaker
Like you just don't get, you know, like these are the constraints and you have to work within these constraints, right? So now looking back, you've completed this project. There's been some time and distance in between it. Looking back and maybe it, maybe it'll inform future or current white bar projects that you'll engage in. What are some things you're like, ah, this time I want to do it this way. Or next time if I would switch this, I would do this instead of that. Do you have any of those takeaways?
00:39:48
Speaker
Yeah, so I think since my dissertation, I've led four different Y-part projects. And every experience is an opportunity to learn and to rethink how I would approach these things. I will say this. I think when I was dissertating, I did feel like there was a... I had a clock. Right?
00:40:15
Speaker
you know, whether it was these milestones that I had to meet in terms of my dissertation, right? I was also pregnant with my daughter at the time. I like gave birth to her a week after I finished data collection. Yes. I don't have those ties or constraints anymore. And so I think because of that, though, like, so for example, last spring, I did a Y part project with a group of high school students on mental health issues.
00:40:41
Speaker
And the vision was like, oh, it's going to be a 10-week project. And it ended up being like a 15-week project. And it was because it just made sense. So we were kind of going with the flow. There's that flexibility that I have as a tenured professor now in terms of things aren't as pressing. I will also throw it out there that
00:41:05
Speaker
for folks who are junior faculty, and you know this, Ashley, that the community-engaged work that we do is a long process. It's never just a short, quick, like, you know, done kind of thing. Like, we're not coming into mind data and then leave, but we're actually trying to, like, build relationships, be in community, and do things with and alongside young people. And so because of that,
00:41:32
Speaker
It takes a long time, right? And so something to be mindful of as junior faculty is like, how do you make sure that you continue to publish at a rate that is going to be on track to eventually get tenure? Is there certain guidelines or borders you'd put up to protect yourself of like, okay,
00:41:52
Speaker
Like, I'm going to do this, but I'm not going to do this. Or like, OK, I'm going to do a study, but now I'm going to go write for the next four or five months. Is there anything that helps you navigate that? And keeping that productive tension of being a community-engaged scholar, but also a scholar who's tenured track and now tenured.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah, so you know, what's interesting is that so I did a lot of writing based on my data for my dissertation. So my advice is, whatever data you're collecting for your dissertation, just know you're going to be writing on that for the first few years that you're on the tenure track, right. And as you're doing this came out of it.
00:42:35
Speaker
three and a few more. So like five total maybe, which I think is the limit. And all the juice. So squeeze as much as you can out of that experience. But I've also, and to be transparent,
00:42:53
Speaker
I mean, my first few years on the tenure track, I wasn't out there launching YPAR projects. And so I had to think about what are other research strands that I would have in the meantime. And so I'm only just beginning to write about YPAR work. And I think that is a part of the tension of how do you do this, especially if you don't have funding as a junior faculty because you want to,
00:43:22
Speaker
reciprocate the labor and make sure that the folks who are doing this work with you are getting compensated for it. I mean, to be honest with you, the community engaged work, because it took longer, I had to also rely on other research strands of mine. I definitely feel that because I'm in the process now of still unpacking some pieces for my dissertation.
00:43:46
Speaker
And, but I'm not out there in the field leading any projects right now, just because I can't like exactly. Yeah. But it's all, it feels weird almost. And I don't know if you felt this way when people ask like, Oh, like, let me know how I can support you or what projects are going on right now. And I'm like, Oh, I'm not doing any, like,
00:44:08
Speaker
Like I was, but I'm not right now, but I will, like it's hard to explain. Yeah, it really is. But I do think, you know, the first few years focusing on your dissertation data and just grind as much out as you can. And then from there, because community-based research takes time. Yeah. Yeah, definitely takes time.
00:44:29
Speaker
Okay, let's look at it. So the idea of this epilogue being written by Michelle Fine is obviously a senior scholar in the field who's published quite a bit about participatory research and work with young people.
Collaboration with Michelle Fine and Youth Leadership
00:44:41
Speaker
I know that fortunately you had the opportunity to already be in relations with her prior to inviting. So what is that conversation like of asking a senior scholar to be a part of this project, to write an epilogue? How did that idea come about?
00:44:59
Speaker
So this was when Michelle had visited Wisconsin and I just reached out to set up a time to talk with her. And I remember being very pregnant at the time. I was at least 32 weeks. We're sitting there and just talking. I was just kind of like almost like.
00:45:14
Speaker
confessing. It was like a confession or something. Like, these are all the terrible things I've done. This is how messed up things are. And Michelle was just like, it's okay, Van. Like, first of all, you're being too hard on yourself. And she's really like, you need to write about this. And so that's really, that was really the impetus of it. And for us to work together, I think she's just really encouraging me to
00:45:40
Speaker
to write down and reflect on what what I've been experiencing. So I don't if she hadn't
00:45:48
Speaker
made that suggestion, I don't think I would have thought that it was worth writing about. So it was really nice of Michelle to affirm for me what I had been observing. And did that also give you the confidence to circle back and ask her like, hey, would you write an ending epilogue for the piece? Yeah, no. I think actually when she said that, she was like, we should write something. And I would take the lead, and then she would
00:46:15
Speaker
she would write her her epilogue at the end. So that's got to feel pretty good, right? As a grad, it's like a grad student who's pregnant, who is like debating and have at confessional, right? To get the words like this is kind of a big moment.
00:46:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was really, I wasn't expecting it, first of all. I'm like, that's Michelle Fine, who am I, right? And so, but I also know that she's very generous in working and writing with junior scholars. And it was, you know, it was just one of those things where it's like, she's Michelle Fine, she didn't have to, who am I? And so, but she took the time to talk with me and to open these possibilities for me, which was really nice of her. And so, and I think moving as
00:47:00
Speaker
a scholar who's advancing in her career, I think that's a part of the work too, is to pay it forward, and being nice to other scholars too. I do feel very fortunate that I've had such a nice circle of scholars who have supported me along the way, and I think that is just so important.
00:47:22
Speaker
Yeah, I'll add actually another story that I know. Dr. Julio Camarota was on my dissertation committee. He's also a mentor and now a colleague at the University of Arizona. And they both co-edited Revolutions. Yeah, yeah. And he said similarly, he was like, I believe either in the grad program or about to like, get a job.
00:47:45
Speaker
And she said like, hey, we should write, and you be first author, and we should do a book project. And that's all I came about, which is, again, a really good opportunity. And that book's amazing, right? So yeah, so definitely, what are the obligations of senior scholars who've been going through this? And I'm not a senior scholar at all, but you know, like,
00:48:10
Speaker
And I think because of the nature of YPAR, those of us who are drawn or attracted to YPAR, there's a degree of generosity involved in terms of wanting to do this work with young people. And so I've found scholars who are generous with their time to mentor me as well.
00:48:30
Speaker
Well, I have to add this, because she writes this in the very end of the epilogue, and I think it's super special. Quote, carry on, man, with your gifts and talents. Chronicle of the stumbles, the barriers, the stunning moments, and fracture points, where participatory research reveals the breeding of structural violence and radical possibilities. This is your gift to your baby and her generation, who will need lanterns in dark times to light the way toward the liberatory practices of teaching, research, organizing, and crafting policy.
00:49:00
Speaker
That's great. Beautiful. Yeah, my daughter's seven now. So yeah, it's very sweet. Yeah. Okay, we are coming to the end of our time together. But I did want to play a quick ballgame that I call in my expert opinion. And essentially,
00:49:22
Speaker
Essentially, I'm just going to rattle off some topics that you'll be well familiar with and you're just going to give me your hot take. Okay. Okay. So number one, are youth leaders? Absolutely. Do you want me to elaborate? A little bit. Yeah, a little bit.
00:49:43
Speaker
I think young people, unlike adults, they're not constrained to whatever obligations that we feel to certain entities because of our jobs or because of... I just think young people, they are absolutely leaders. They have ideas and opinions and voices that shouldn't deserve to be heard. Okay. Good. Thank you.
00:50:06
Speaker
Number two, where do you think white power is best conducted? What type of spaces do you feel white power is best suited to?
00:50:14
Speaker
I mean, I think spaces where the adults in the context are supportive or will get out of the way, who will provide resources and whatever scaffolding is necessary or needed. And I've seen this happen maybe more readily in like out of school context, but I don't think that means that it can't happen in school context. I just know that there's a lot more aspects to contend with in a traditional school setting.
00:50:43
Speaker
What do you think about YPAR projects that are more homogeneous of one certain racer background or more heterogeneous in multiple different racial backgrounds, being those representing dominant society or those being from more minoritized groups? Based on now, the experience of navigating, it looks like up to maybe five or more YPAR studies and projects.
00:51:08
Speaker
Do you notice a difference of what that's like if it's, for instance, if all the young people are BIPOC or if it's mixed or if they're all black or all Asian or teasing out those racial complex?
00:51:26
Speaker
I think there's value in, you know, well, first of all, why do we have certain spaces that are homogeneous, right? So, I mean, if we're doing Y part in certain communities, communities are segregated. So, lo and behold, schools are segregated.
00:51:41
Speaker
that's bound to happen. Although I see the value in like, yeah, like the Latin A students at this school see this issue. Yeah, why not? I also see the value in a mixed BIPOC setting where there's potential for like learning from one another, seeing our solidarities, right, as minoritized groups and also acknowledging
00:52:07
Speaker
differences and experiences as racialized beings. I'm less familiar with, though, like
00:52:14
Speaker
affluent white kids being in YPAR projects with, maybe that does happen, but I just haven't seen it as much. I also know that I think if we think about like the origins or genesis of participatory action research, I mean, it's minoritized, marginalized folks organizing and doing research, right? Not necessarily with dominant groups, although I can see the benefit of a mixed race economic setting too, so.
00:52:41
Speaker
OK, nice. OK, you mentioned this a little bit about the time of a white power project. And I think for your dissertation, you set forth for the year. And then earlier, I know you mentioned another project where you did from 10 to 15 originally, and then you expanded to 15 sessions.
00:52:58
Speaker
What would you say is the minimum amount of sessions or time or meetings that you would need to complete from beginning to end of a white bar project?
00:53:13
Speaker
I mean, that's a really good question. I think it would depend on like the age of the group, how many students are in the group. Austin, do y'all get to meet? So I don't know if I have a magic number to tell you. So I don't know if that answers your question, but it just really depends. So for your dissertation study, for instance, did you feel like the year was ample time and felt very comfortable with that amount of time and with that age group as well?
00:53:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that was ample time to address the research topic that we wanted to address. But I could see if the topic's like more of a longitudinal study or something that it would definitely more than a year. I mean, honestly, most of these projects, I wish I had more time. I think that's usually the issue. So I think when graduate students are thinking about planning a YPAR project,
00:54:04
Speaker
Plan for more time if you can, right? So plan for those extra weeks because whatever you think you're gonna do, you're probably not. And do you think on that note, do you think meeting once a week, once a month, once every two weeks, is there any meeting schedule that you like or prefer?
Consistency in YPAR Meetings
00:54:24
Speaker
And just my own preference, I usually meet once a week with my YPAR group just because I think
00:54:31
Speaker
Two weeks feels like there's too much time apart and I think there's like a rhythm to a project and also just continuity and in terms of building like community and having just that regular weekly meeting.
00:54:45
Speaker
That works for me. I feel good about that. And then lastly, for graduate students or scholars who maybe they've never heard of YPAR, maybe they're interested in it, where would you offer them as a good place to start to go learn more about it?
00:55:01
Speaker
Yeah, so I have two recommendations. One, definitely the revolutionizing education that Kamarita and Fine co-edited. There's also a website called YparHub out of Berkeley. So I think it's yparhub.berkeley.edu that Emily Ozer runs. And so I think that's a really good website with lots of resources and you can see different Ypar projects that have happened.
00:55:24
Speaker
Okay, perfect. Thank you so much, Dr. Vanlak, for coming on. Please tell listeners where they can find you or how they can get in contact with you. Yeah, sure. So I am on Twitter, I think formerly known as Twitter now X, Dr. DR underscore Vanlak. Yeah, that's one way that you can reach me or via email at lac at UIC.edu. Awesome. Thank you so much for being a guest on willing to learn.
00:55:54
Speaker
Awesome, thank you.