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The Real Reason Your Brain Is Shrinking with Dr. Tommy Wood - E79
31 Plays7 days ago
Most people never realize their brain is shrinking - until memory slips or mental sluggishness forces them to take notice. The real reason behind this decline isn’t just age or bad luck, but an energy crisis inside the brain that starts quietly and builds over time. Even highly motivated, health-focused people can miss the hidden lifestyle mistakes and overlooked daily choices that undermine their cognitive reserve.
This episode takes you beneath the surface to uncover why energy status matters most for long-term brain health, what actually speeds up brain shrinkage, and the practical steps to reverse course. You’ll get straight answers and usable strategies from a top brain health expert who turns science into powerful habits for everyday life.
Dr. Tommy Wood is a neuroscientist and self-confessed professional nerd. As Associate Professor of Pediatrics and Neuroscience at the University of Washington School of Medicine, his laboratory focuses on brain health across the lifespan. He also works as a performance consultant to professional athletes including several Olympians, Formula 1 drivers and world champions, has helped found the British Society for Lifestyle Medicine, and is the author of the forthcoming book, ‘The Stimulated Mind: Future-Proof Your Brain from Dementia and Stay Sharp at Any Age’.
“You don't get stronger in the gym, you get stronger when you're recovering afterwards. And the brain is essentially the same and sleep is obviously the time when that happens.” - Dr. Tommy Wood
In this episode you will learn:
- Why the biggest driver of lower brain reserve is energy status, and how this links to long term brain health.
- How Dr. Wood moved from a focus on physical health to research in brain health for athletes and the public.
- The 3S model for brain health: stimulus, supply, and support—and which daily practices boost each area.
- How lifestyle choices before and after birth shape brain health, but habits later in life can shift your risk for decline.
- Why hearing, sleep, and diet play crucial roles, with specific steps for maintaining and improving brain function at any age.
- How even small changes, like more sleep and learning new skills, can make a big difference in long term brain health.
Resources:
- Connect with Dr. Wood on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drtommywood
- Listen to Dr. Wood’s talk, ‘More Bigger, More Brainier’, at Ignite Seattle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zmYCbS0vq4
- Preorder Dr. Wood’s upcoming book, ‘The Stimulated Mind’ : https://www.drtommywood.com/stimulated-mind
This podcast was produced by the team at Zapods Podcast Agency:
Find the products, practices, and routines discussed on the Alively website:
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview of Brain Health
00:00:00
Speaker
The biggest contributor to lower brain reserve, which just a smaller brain, decreases the buffer you have available, makes it more likely that you'll lose significant function over time, is energy status.
00:00:15
Speaker
This is the Home of Healthspan podcast, where we profile health and wellness role models, sharing their stories and the tools, practices, and routines they use to live a lively life.
00:00:28
Speaker
Dr. Tommy Wood, it is a pleasure to have you on the Home Healthspan today, and I'm very much looking forward to our conversation. But before we jump in to you, your background, and all the work you're doing, how would you describe yourself?
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm going to go off piece just for a second and say that ah one of the important things that I think we can all do is ah like ah diversify the things that we identify with.
00:00:53
Speaker
um But I'm just going to give you one because that's what asked for. So I am ah a lively professional nerd. I very much agree. I wrote a blog post on no more labels and like, hey, these are things that I do and that may change with time, but I'm not any one of these things. So I very much sympathize and empathize with that line of thinking. And I have to say, you were probably the single longest time coming guest on the show, though you
Dr. Wood's Career Path and Brain Health Focus
00:01:19
Speaker
probably didn't realize it. The very first...
00:01:21
Speaker
episode I ever recorded was with, I believe a friend of yours, Greg Bennett. yeah And he said, Oh, you have to get Dr. Tommy went on the show. He's my Huberman. You got, you got to get this guy. And it wasn't until recently when Dr. Dan party was on and he mentioned, I was like, Oh, well, let me ask for this intro. And so I'm incredibly grateful that you came on. And if people look up pictures of you and see some of the the physical things that you work with formula one and others, they'll probably think a lot around physical performance, physical health,
00:01:54
Speaker
but your expertise is really around brain health. And that that gets me excited because there's so many people, what's easy to see is the physical health. But there's so many people that come to me and say, you know honestly, I'm much more worried about my long-term brain health because so many people have personal stories from family members. And once you lose that, it's one, probably impossible to hold on to the physical health, but two, it doesn't really mean anything anyway. So can can you talk a little bit about what drew you in to this space in the first place?
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. or First of all, like i'm I'm very appreciative for of both ah Greg and Dan for for recommending me. They're both very good good friends of mine and excellent guests for you to have had on your show and and hopefully everybody's listened to their listen to their episodes.
00:02:39
Speaker
So where where I've ended up in the world of brain health to To be honest, is kind of it wasn't it wasn't planned at all. And actually, I've never really had any kind of plan for my career, which is why my ah CV is eclectic, I'm told, by the sort of formal people have to assess those things at the at the university. But i I certainly started more interested in physical health, particularly for for myself. So,
00:03:05
Speaker
I was very sedentary kid and teenager and then sort of found exercise kind of in my in my late teens. um And when I was at a university, a minor graduate degree, I was at Cambridge.
00:03:20
Speaker
And I probably spent more i spent more time rowing than I did studying, or at least it was ah it was a close call, which which I did more of. You know i was kind of learning about training, learning about diets, just like all these different aspects um were sort of ah became very interesting to me.
00:03:36
Speaker
And for that reason, I then went to medical
Impact of Lifestyle on Brain Health
00:03:39
Speaker
school. um And at the time, i was kind of like, you know, I've learned all these things about physical health. I would like to help others ah with those things.
00:03:51
Speaker
As a doctor in the traditional medical care system, that's not necessarily something you have a lot of time to address, but you know that was my sort of initial motivation. and I continued to row when I was at Oxford. um so Rowing was my sport for seven or eight years. I also then later became head coach of the medical school boat club at Oxford.
00:04:12
Speaker
And we had some, particularly on the women's side, the women's crew, the top women's crew was kind of my my main crew. And we had some very high level rowers, like rowers who competed sort of ah at an international level. um So it was really cool to get to work with really talented athletes.
00:04:26
Speaker
Um, and so then I went and worked as doctor for for a few years and didn't really know what I wanted to specialize in. So I was offered a position to do a PhD at the university of Oslo in Norway by, uh, a former mentor of mine. I'd done a little bit of work in a couple of summer in her lab for a couple of summers when I was an undergrad.
00:04:48
Speaker
And, I didn't really know what else was like, yeah, that sounds interesting. Let's go move to Norway. And so then that was where my kind of neuroscience training started. But but that sort of like formal basic neuroscience is in animal models in the lab. it's in It was in neonatal brain injury.
00:05:04
Speaker
ah So not necessarily directly connected to sort of the the bigger picture of brain health. Although... once you spend a lot of time in it, you can kind of see that those people who who experience issues um early in life are the changes of the trajectory of your entire kind of brain health span, right? So this all of this stuff integrates over time. And I think that's something that we lose a lot ah of in some of the formal neurology and neuroscience fields is that you have one brain and it's influenced by your entire life.
00:05:31
Speaker
um But equally, you have the opportunity to influence it wherever you are currently. right So you don't necessarily have to worry about what happened before. You can still make positive impacts right now. But while I was working on my PhD, I then got a chance to return to some of those other interests. So I started a blog and ah and a podcast. And like this is before, you know, lots of people had podcasts. This is like 2012 or something.
00:05:55
Speaker
And i can't I can't say it was a very good podcast. It was just like me trying to try to figure stuff out. But, you know, kind of the first forays into that ah sphere. And I then got connected with a company that was working with athletes to support their overall health and performance. particular A lot of masters athletes, people trying to juggle very high levels of performance with families and jobs and all that kind of stuff And through that work, I i got um sort of connected with a group or company that does a lot of work in Formula me One. So for the past nearly 10 years, I've been doing a lot of work with Formula One drivers on ah various aspects of cognitive and physical performance.
00:06:33
Speaker
And so I've had these two tracks in parallel in my career. One is like the formal basic academic neuroscientist where I write ground proposals. We do animal models of brain injuries. We try and develop new therapies.
00:06:47
Speaker
And then the other parallel track is you know working with high high-level performers. I've worked a health coach for a couple of different companies as as well as you know as a sort of performance consultant in professional sports.
00:07:00
Speaker
And then what's sort of quite nice about being an academic, especially in in the US actually, is that you can kind of do whatever you want as long as you can find somebody to pay you for it. So those two worlds have ah have sort of merged over time. So so now my work, as much as ah as as possible, and with lots of help and collaborators and colleagues and lots of people who work in my lab to to kind of keep the the the wheels turning,
00:07:25
Speaker
it's It's now sort of like ah how can we look at um brain health across the entire lifespan from right at the beginning of life through midlife and other things that might happen, you know, lifestyle, the environment, brain injuries, so concussions and things like that, because that's important to me because some of the military and athlete work that I do.
00:07:45
Speaker
And then like, how can we, keep that brain healthy for as long as possible, you know ideally eight, nine, 10 decades into the future um with your value by understanding where they are now and and putting in place different things that that might be able to support that that process.
00:08:02
Speaker
There kind of two specific questions I want to jump in before we go um elsewhere. But one thing you brought up is it's over the course of your entire lifetime influencing brain health.
00:08:13
Speaker
And I imagine it's actually more than your lifetime, right? So decisions and behaviors of parents, both the the father and the mother, are also going to impact that.
00:08:25
Speaker
And so probably you can't do anything once you're out, like you can't influence that. But as someone who might become a parent, there's certain things you can do. And so is that, is that part of the research too of like, Hey, over the course of my lifetime, and as I'm setting up the the next generation, here are things I should be looking at avoiding or doing.
00:08:43
Speaker
um Like I saw, I think Rhonda Patrick just recently put out um something that the fitness levels of fathers actually carries over to the next generation. and at some level, like on an epigenetic level.
00:08:56
Speaker
So yes, that that absolutely that's absolutely absolutely the case. so So one thing that's kind of big in the the fields that i work in is you the developmental origins of health and disease, DOHAD.
00:09:07
Speaker
um That includes like the in utero environment um and sort of the mother's environment, but then also you know the the parents, the parents even even before conception, does does play a role the environment that they're in and other lifestyle factors.
Genetics vs. Environment in Cognitive Decline
00:09:22
Speaker
When... You get into that, though, it it becomes tricky because the idea isn't to generate blame, right? which Which is often the way that those kinds of things are and are and are interpreted. So the you're absolutely right that the health and the environment of the parents and you know the mother in utero and the kid in utero do change or, you know influence later trajectory and and and later health. A lot of that is kind of like big societal stressor stuff that the individuals don't even necessarily have control over. That's probably where the biggest impacts are. But yes, you know, things like physical fitness, nutrient status, those are going to to have an impact.
00:10:00
Speaker
But luckily, I think all the evidence that we have suggests that regardless of prior environments. And so a lot of work that i do is babies born preterm.
00:10:14
Speaker
And so babies born preterm, when they become adults, they tend to have higher mortality risk. They have a higher risk for all of the disease of aging. They have a higher dementia risk, you know, on on average cognitive function, maybe slightly lower, but we know the things that we can do to intervene.
00:10:32
Speaker
even much much later in life. So yes, early life trajectory can be set by all those things, but that doesn't mean that you can't shift that trajectory later on. Actually, i let's jump straight to that because I think that's where people are going to get most bang for their buck, right? Learning from you, expert in this, because it's... I forget the exact phrasing, but it's like the...
00:10:56
Speaker
Genetics can kind of dictate some of your starting point, but they're not destiny, right? You can influence so much. And I think this is where your upcoming book, The Simulated Mind, and the work you're doing and yeah working with the best of the best, but then bringing it down to everybody, like giving everybody to access to this knowledge that you're capturing.
00:11:16
Speaker
What are those things? And I know like the 3S model, what are those things that are in our control that we should be thinking about in relative prioritization? What's interesting, particularly for like the genetics versus the environment thing, and you're right, so like, you know, genes load the gun and then the environment fires it or you some some version of that.
00:11:38
Speaker
um when you look so so So let's think about um what probably people are most concerned about, which is significant cognitive decline later in life, which you know if it goes either long enough or fast enough, you may end up with a condition called dementia. right You've had a significant loss of cognitive function such that you are unable to do the daily activities to to take care of yourself.
00:12:01
Speaker
That's sort of the kind of the informal definition of dementia, which there are many kinds. um But 70 to 90% of dementia cases are Alzheimer's disease or vascular dementia. And we know that for...
00:12:16
Speaker
those particular cases, assuming it's not familial, like caused by a single mutation Alzheimer's disease, which is much less common, like maybe one to 5% of cases of Alzheimer's disease.
00:12:27
Speaker
So the vast majority have a big relationship to the environment and lifestyle risk factors, which are inherently modifiable. So the majority of dementia, some people would argue, maybe, if not completely preventable, you can either d you can dramatically decrease your risk um by doing there are various things that that we can get into.
00:12:52
Speaker
But when you look at specific genetic risk for dementia, so so the most common one is the ah your APOE or apolipoprotein E genotype, which people will probably have heard of.
00:13:05
Speaker
There are three different types that you can have and you get two different copies. And the one that's associated with increased risk is ApoE4. um And yeah if you have one copy of ApoE4, your risk is maybe two to six times ah higher for for Alzheimer's disease. And if it's um if you have two copies, it's like six to 20 times, some something like that. um But you can also look at polygenic risk. So like all your genes and all their different polymorphisms you can use to kind of, because they combine in lots of different little ways to to increase or decrease your genetic risk of dementia.
00:13:38
Speaker
And so like those kind of risk scores exist. All the evidence to date so far says that these things are just risk multipliers. They're not an absolute destiny. So um if you have ApoE4, like one or two copies, then...
00:13:55
Speaker
the the sort of the negative effect of of being sedentary or having poor cardiovascular health or, you know, consuming relatively large amounts of alcohol, those risks are multiplied.
00:14:07
Speaker
But in the absence of those risks, you you probably don't have much of ah of an increased risk of dementia, if that makes sense. So the same things apply. It's just that for those people, there there may be a bigger risk associated with them. So What that tells me is that yes, genes are important, but the core things that you need to do and think about are the same regardless of your genetics and regardless of your genetics, you will still
The 3S Model for Brain Health
00:14:30
Speaker
benefit from them. so And I like that because that's kind of like a positive message.
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's the, certain people like to say oh, well, this person lived this long, like they were a smoker, they did this, like, okay, great. Like they had some genetic thing that did not make it super risky for them to do that. But we know from millions, if not hundreds of millions of people that it is going to increase your risk.
00:14:52
Speaker
And yeah without knowing on the front end, If you're one of those people that just has a free ticket, you're probably better off, even if you don't know your ApoE status, like these are behaviors that you're going to be well served to follow through with anyway, right? Just taking care of your health. Yeah. And and again, there's a few different ways that these discussions are important because often I'll ah you know i'll go out there and I'll say,
00:15:16
Speaker
Physical activity is really important for dementia prevention, right? And then somebody will say, well, my granddad played tennis every day. he was super active. walked all the time and he's still got dementia. And like, that, absolutely absolutely true, right? Physical activity is not the only risk factor, but equally, he may have had better cognitive function even when he had dementia or he may have developed it later or, you know, there are a whole other bunch of other things that are still consistent with both of those things being true, right?
00:15:45
Speaker
But humans struggle to think in probabilities. I'm not saying that if you do all this stuff, I can guarantee you won't get dementia. Of course I can't. But I can say, based on the data we have, i can you you you might be able to reduce your risk by 50% or more, which is like a really meaningful change.
00:16:01
Speaker
So it's it's kind of just thinking about all those things. Humans aren't necessarily that great at doing it. yeah We like these kind of certainty statements, but... when you kind of exist in academia, you just, you're just dealing with probabilities oh and medicine is the same.
00:16:15
Speaker
Um, so yeah, we're just trying to think about how can we stack the deck in our favor as much as possible. That's really the goal. Okay. And so I guess, especially for people listening, what are those things? Certainly mobility and and exercise and fitness sounds like a big one, but can you kind of go through, hey here are the big buckets and biggest bang for your buck, the things you can do.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, of course. I started all the academic parts and then, you know, like, where does the rubber meet the road? That's what we really care about. And genuinely, that's what I really care about too. um So you kind of alluded to it. um And I think that the framework that that I found most helpful for thinking about all these different things is something that i call the three s model.
00:16:58
Speaker
And I'll go through those different components and explain what it is. But the conceptually, the reason that I think this is important is because often when we think about the factors that influence our health that that we might want to change or you know things we might want to do.
00:17:15
Speaker
And so even if we just focus on the brain, right, not other aspects of health, although all these things are interconnected, but you might go on Instagram and you'll find a very evidence-based list of here are 20 things you need to do for brain health.
00:17:29
Speaker
And you're like, I mean, i I could maybe do one thing. Like, which do I pick? 20 means zero for most people, right? 100%. Two means zero for most people. like So um this is why I think just having a framework that we can kind of focus on helps a lot. and can I really just start that out? And also because when you change one thing, you're actually changing multiple things at the same time, which you can only really understand if you think about them as like an interconnected network rather than as a list.
00:17:59
Speaker
um So the 3S model, ah the 3S is our stimulus, supply, and support. um And the more kind of time I've spent in this field, and you know there's a lot of work I do with ah a very good colleague of mine, Dr. Josh Nerkle, who's who's a neurologist, and we've written sort of papers on this idea.
00:18:19
Speaker
um And part of it is influenced by the fact that I'm like ah i'm a bit of a meathead at heart. you know I like to lift weights and and and that kind of stuff. And I've you know i've competed in multiple lots of different types of sports.
00:18:30
Speaker
So this is the framework that kind of helps me understand it. um And it's very related to that physical side that we we kind of touched upon. So I believe, and I think we have good evidence to support the idea that the primary determinant of brain function is the stimulus that is applied to that brain.
00:18:46
Speaker
Um, and I'll, I'll make that clearer, I promise. But to kind of draw the parallel, if you want bigger biceps, which is an admirable goal, um, that I recommend everybody have, um, if you want bigger, if you want bigger biceps, um, and if you if that's not goal you have, that's of course fine. Um, but if you want bigger biceps, you need to, lift you need to lift weights. You need to do bicep curls, right?
00:19:13
Speaker
You need to apply a stimulus to that tissue. Mechanical tension is the primary driver of muscle growth. If you eat enough protein and you have good nutrient status and you sleep well, you will get more adaptation for a given stimulus, right? So you can support the response to that stimulus.
00:19:31
Speaker
But you can't just chug protein shakes and nap and hope that your biceps will get bigger, right? You have to go and do some bicep curls. And in that's the same for cardiovascular fitness. It's the same for the immune system being exposed to vaccines or um ah you know viruses. It's the same as like the liver metabolizing alcohol. It's the same as bones becoming stronger under load.
00:19:55
Speaker
Basically, any function of the body is largely driven by the stimulus that's applied to it because by the body adapts to those stimuli by improving function. that's just That's how we survive in the world um as we do.
00:20:09
Speaker
So all of this to say that the brain seems to be the same. So if we're thinking about any of the sort of basic cognitive functions that we might care about, memory, processing speed, ah executive functions, sort of decision-making,
00:20:26
Speaker
um focus and attention, having an actual stimulus that ah we apply to our brains to expand these capacities is the primary determinant of having those capacities in the first place.
00:20:36
Speaker
um And so that's why stimulus ah is, I think, the most important part of the three s model, because you need the stimulus for the brain to then adapt and improve in response. So stimuli that seem to be really beneficial are, um so early in life, there's just an endless amount of evidence support that greater education and greater educational attainment is one of the primary drivers of cognitive development and you know cognitive function.
00:21:06
Speaker
But anything that involves learning and skill development, which by design also requires you to actively engage the processes of focused attention, ah you know processing information, ah you know memorizing skills,
00:21:23
Speaker
You're driving sort of non-specifically and specifically, you're driving these functions in the brain by engaging with with skill learning ah more broadly. So that can be various kinds of social interaction. That can be languages, music, dancing, you know, any kind of complex on any kind of complex movement. These are kind of core human skills that seem to drive brain function.
00:21:46
Speaker
If anyone wants some good examples on that, my mom, you know, in her 60s started studying Spanish, then 70s added on Italian, but then had like a physical injury. And i think the best thing that's going to be for her to stave off dementia, she started learning to play golf left-handed. So her whole life played right-handed and now she can't play right-handed. So she switched to left-handed and like all the the biomechanics and having to rewire the brain, I feel, I'm like, that's going to be the best thing you could possibly do.
00:22:13
Speaker
yeah Yeah, absolutely. and and for Because like not only are you stimulating multiple brain networks at the same time, you're engaging the processes of memory, attention, focus, decision-making all at the same time.
00:22:27
Speaker
um And it's it's these things that really drive the function in those ah you know in those areas of
Supporting Brain Health: Nutrition and Lifestyle
00:22:32
Speaker
the brain. And those are networks in the brain that are sort of susceptible to the processes of aging and that that accelerates as as people sort of enter into a trajectory towards dementia. So...
00:22:42
Speaker
That's the stimulus bucket. So the next one that I talk about is is supply. So if you think about where you've stimulated a network in the brain, where you've activated all these different parts of the motor cortex ah and maybe like visual visual motor coordination as you try and learn how to play golf left-handed, right?
00:23:01
Speaker
So those parts of the brain, as they become active, they increase their requirement of resources. um And there's this thing called neurovascular coupling, which is basically as those neurons fire and then some of the other um cells in the brain that support neurons like astrocytes, their activity dilates the blood vessels, right? So expands the blood vessels in those areas of the brain to draw in more oxygen,
00:23:25
Speaker
more like energy, right? Generally ah as glucose, but it can be other things like lactate and ketones. And then nutrients that are required to you know create new synapses and new mitochondria and all those kinds of things that then cement those those processes as you adapt to that stimulus.
00:23:44
Speaker
So that tells us we need good cardiovascular health because we need our blood vessels to be healthy. um And we know that the majority of cases of dementia have some issue with the blood vessels in the brain, you know, endothelial dysfunction or small clots or that kind of stuff. So this is where risk factors for cardiovascular disease tie very closely to risk factors for dementia.
00:24:06
Speaker
ah We also need good metabolic health to be able to supply energy and use that energy. So that's where, you know, ah avoiding things like prediabetes, high blood pressure, which also links to the cardiovascular side are really important.
00:24:20
Speaker
And then we need adequate nutrient status so that we can build those those different parts of the brain that are required. So nutrients that we know are really critical are things like long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, particularly DHA, which concentrates in synapses in the brain.
00:24:34
Speaker
ah B vitamins, um particularly the B vitamins that affect methylation, because methylation is required to get that DHA into the membrane that so it can do its job. ah But also vitamin d iron, ah magnesium, um those are like that probably some of the heavy hitters because magnesium and some other things like um zinc,
00:24:55
Speaker
really important for like neuromodulation, right? they They help to kind of tune some of the signals in the brain. um But other things become important as well, like antioxidant status. And there are some like polyphenols that you get in berries and chocolate and tea and coffee and that kind of stuff seem seem to be really closely tied to how how well you can continue to run the cognitive machinery for decades, right? Because it it generates some oxidative stress and they can sort of help modulate that process.
00:25:23
Speaker
So that's the kind of supply bucket. And then the final bucket is um support in the kind of this process where you've activated the brain, you've supplied all these different things that needs to respond, then there's this period of adaptation where function improves. So Any good athlete knows that you don't get stronger in the gym, you get stronger when you're recovering afterwards. And and the brain is essentially the same. And sleep is obviously the time when that that happens for the majority of it, though.
00:25:54
Speaker
Defined low activity periods during the day after periods of intense cognitive activity can be really important for sort of like shorter term recovery. And you see that in kind of studies of how people feel and perform during the during the workday. So there there is some aspects of rest and recovery that's that's important but within a day as well as ah you know after a day.
00:26:16
Speaker
So sleep is really critical. um But then ah you also want to avoid things that impair um that that that recovery process. So chronic stress is one of those. It creates this sort of hypermetabolic, greater demands in the brain so that you can never actually fully recover and adapt from those stimuli that you're receiving.
00:26:38
Speaker
um And so you know finding ways to to address those, if that's a risk factor for you, that's important. ah Then other things that might impair that process include smoking, air pollution, significant intake of alcohol,
00:26:52
Speaker
So it's all of that. It's it's how are you are creating the environment that allows for adaptation to to stimulus. And then there are other things that kind of fit into that, including like trophic support. So we know that there are lots of hormones and proteins that your your body produces that help to support those adaptation processes.
00:27:08
Speaker
They can be generated by exercise or, you know, they might be horal hormonal status or some other things that that might change over time. um So those are kind of the three buckets. And then ah talk about how they interact because...
00:27:20
Speaker
When you change one thing, like I said earlier, you kind of you can change many of them. So when you if you sleep more, we know that the next day ah you are more likely to feel ah sociable.
00:27:33
Speaker
So you're more likely to socially interact with other people and therefore get more stimulus. We also know that your blood pressure will improve and your blood sugar will improve. um we know you're more likely to pick a nourishing meal rather than just reach for something that sort of like satisfies you in the minute, but like it's not necessarily supporting some of those other processes. um You know, the same if you if you exercise more than, right, you've created some stimulus, but you also sleep better and all these other things. So that's why you can kind of,
00:28:01
Speaker
look at the network and say, like here's one area where I think I can get the biggest bang for my buck. And then when you start to pull that lever, the whole kind of network shifts in your favor.
00:28:11
Speaker
um And then it's not it's not as daunting a list of things that to to to to try and address. This may be a winding question. So please have patience with me while I try to get there. Because...
00:28:24
Speaker
This idea of overstimulation, it made sense in the physical side, right? People talk about being overtrained. And I think it was Andy Galpin in his Perform podcast had one of like, realistically, the average person is not possible they can get overtrained. Like you look at what professional athletes do, the amount of hours, the the loads they're putting on, the average person can't be overtrained.
00:28:46
Speaker
And I'd look at my own HRV and the stuff I'm doing and said, I don't know. It's hard to buy that. Like, I look, I used to be on the national team for swimming. I used to do five, six hours a day of swimming. Like, I know my body could take that. But now as someone who's getting up early to take care of my daughter and then working all day, like you're under different stressors. And so maybe...
00:29:08
Speaker
In an absolute perfect world, you couldn't get overtrained, but you could be under-rested, under-recovered for the training load you're doing. And so I'm curious what that looks like for stimulation on the brain. Because could it, does it cause the same kind of, it will run you down like you can physically, or is it just...
00:29:29
Speaker
you're unproductive or it's just not sinking in. You're not learning. Like you can put more hours in simulation on, but it's just like yeah water off a duck's back. Like what what does it look like on the mind side? That's a really great question. I think, um, we're coming back to the physical side.
00:29:43
Speaker
Um, and And the the same is the case for the brain, right? That rather than thinking about just the one stimulus, which is a the training stimulus, we have to think about all the stimuli, all the stresses that an individual is exposed to. And the adaptation that we're driving, right, any adaptation, be it to a you physical or cognitive stimulus,
00:30:06
Speaker
is, right, the initial response is some version of the stress response, right? Sympathetic activation increases, cortisol increases, right? This is our generalized response to anything that our body determines to be important. And that includes a training session, that includes, you know, going to school and having to focus, right?
00:30:24
Speaker
So then useful framework is the idea of allostatic load, which Bruce Mekuen developed, which is essentially thinking about what's sort the totality of things that you're having to respond to ah versus your the totality of your ability to you know adapt adapt and recover. so Yeah, if your training load might have decreased, but your other stresses may have increased, then they can be both cognitive both on the cognitive side as well as decreasing your ability to recover if you're you know skipping sleep because you have to go stuff do stuff with your family and whatever. So the in the sports science world, yes, it's a very interesting intellectual question to say, is this over-training or is it under-recovery?
00:31:06
Speaker
practically speaking for the individual, they're two sides of the same coin, right? If you're doing one more of one, you have less time for the other. That's just yeah and ah across all all spheres of your life. So in in terms of the brain, um i like the fact that you brought up this comparison because I like to think of everybody, actually regardless of their job, you if as cognitive athletes.
00:31:30
Speaker
Um, and because like the word athlete comes from the ancient Greek meaning to like compete for a prize. So if your prize is i get my brain to work for 90 years, right. Then that's something that we're all striving for, right. Regardless of our, our, you know, day-to-day job or work or whatever.
00:31:47
Speaker
So you're right that, you know when I sort of present this ah framework of stimulus, I think that we are simultaneously understimulated and overstimulated at the same time.
00:32:01
Speaker
So we are understimulated from this, you know, skill learning, social interaction, core processes that drive cognitive function, you know, in in humans that we have very good evidence for.
00:32:17
Speaker
We do less of that because we we have like so many other concerns and things that we have have to deal with. And then within a given day, right, so anybody can can ah sort of identify with this, right, you get up.
00:32:33
Speaker
And then you've got to like get all the like kids to school and get ready for work and um whatever. So you're not really thinking about stuff. It's just like you're surviving for an hour or two and then you get to work and then there's just like emails you have to deal with. And then you're in meetings all day. And while you're in meetings, you're probably multitasking because you're answering you're answering emails and you know maybe you're checking checking Instagram because this meeting was particularly boring and you're constantly task switching.
00:32:55
Speaker
right So you get to the end of the day and you haven't actually done any work. Right. um like how often How often have you spent a day at work and not actually done any work? And it happens to be all the time ah because of the modern work environment. And so across all of that, not only are you not spending time actively engaging your brain in these processes, right? You're not doing a focused training session.
00:33:17
Speaker
ah You're just doing what we might call junk volume. It's just like you're like running all day with no specific purpose. But then there's also the fact that you never got a chance to recover from this like what what what we would call cognitive middle
Modern Life's Impact on Brain Function
00:33:32
Speaker
gear. And I can talk about the cognitive ah gears kind of expand on that framework, but there's like cognitive middle gear work that's very stressful for for all these different reasons, right? You're constantly task switching. It requires it's a greater mental burden for less total output.
00:33:47
Speaker
You're stressed about the fact that you're not actually getting any work done um and you never get a chance to take a break. So we're kind of constantly overstimulated from that standpoint. Plus, you know, then we go home and maybe we're doing the same thing. So like we're watching TV, but we're also looking at our phones and all these other, right? We're never getting these true mental breaks. So,
00:34:08
Speaker
what we're missing is really good quality focused stimulus. And we're missing good quality recovery, because we're spending all this kind of time in the middle. So if you've ever worked with amateur athletes, which I have done a lot of, what they often assume, because they're amateurs, right they're not professionals, that this isn't their job, they're kind of doing on the side, what they assume is that the The thing that's missing from their performance is that they're not spending enough time training.
00:34:38
Speaker
So they will just go out, maybe even multiple times or multiple hours a day. And it's just like, it's hard all the time. They're like, I just have to push harder. If I push harder, I'll get better.
00:34:49
Speaker
And what happens is they get stress fractures and they get injuries and their body never has a chance to recover. But also they never drive really high quality adaptation because they're not sort of periodizing their training.
00:35:00
Speaker
And that is essentially what we're doing with our brains all day, every day. That's a really good analogy between those two. most of what we've talked about has been at the average, right? Like, Hey, this is for the base. This is good for everyone. I'm curious, especially given some of your work for, ah addressing once things have gone wrong, right? Like you've done work identifying what actually a concussion is, what's causing a concussion. And so some of the, the recovery, if, if something like that happens, or maybe you have, like we talked on boy for a genetic disorder,
00:35:36
Speaker
that may cause cognitive impairment and put you more at risk, what are those things once you're kind of behind the eight ball? Is it the same behaviors? Are there certain things that you're like, hey, this could even more stack the deck once you've you've started behind a little bit?
00:35:51
Speaker
I think all the evidence we have so far um mainly aligns with kind of the the second thing that you mentioned, which is are the the same behaviors still matter. So sort of the balance of them may change slightly, but so so of like concussion is a really good example.
00:36:10
Speaker
um Ideally, if you're somebody who's at a high risk of head injury, you've addressed some of this stuff before because then when the head injury occurs, you you may be able to lessen its impact. And that ah nutrient status, ah metabolic health, some of these things can change it seems sort of exacerbate or sort of moderate the effects of a concussion when it occurs.
00:36:30
Speaker
Some of that comes from like animal models and then a little bit from sort of epidemiology because it's, we can't do randomized controlled trials of that kind of stuff. It was very, very hard to do. There are some populations where they have a very high concussion rate.
Early Cognitive Decline and Reversibility
00:36:43
Speaker
So you can kind of put interventions in place beforehand, but we can't like sort of big multi-pronged interventions are very hard to do in that in that kind of scenario. So we kind of have to,
00:36:54
Speaker
join the dots a little bit that way. But so say if you have a concussion, one of the most important things is, which has changed in the last few years, it's now built into most concussion recovery protocols, but is getting becoming physically active as as soon as you can afterwards, as long as it's not making your symptoms worse. And having this like graded return first to just any kind of physical activity, and then to skill or sports specific activity, assuming that this was like a sports related concussion.
00:37:19
Speaker
So in that scenario, yes, I think there are nutritional things that that you would take into account. You we've written some papers on that. But the most important thing is getting that brain moving again, because that seems to be really critical to to to recovery.
00:37:35
Speaker
For, say, you know once people have started a trajectory of, you know they've noticed some cognitive changes, um there was a recent update to the sort of the framework, ah the diagnostic process, or like the life course, the sort of like the formal description of the different stages of cognitive decline and and dementia.
00:37:55
Speaker
They've now included subjective cognitive decline as the first step. So that being that like you know that something's different. But if you did ah yeah you went to a neurologist and you did a mock-a-test or something like that, it's not going to pick anything up because that's designed to pick up people who already have a significant deficit.
00:38:13
Speaker
um But if you have some subjective changes, this is now considered something that people should um think about and and and take seriously, which previously was very hard to do because you couldn't. do a test and diagnose it, right? You're kind of relying on the the patient's history and their own feeling of of of things that might have changed.
00:38:31
Speaker
But all the evidence suggests that um those changes are probably completely reversible. um If you have subjected to decline, you're an increase you are at an increased risk of future dementia,
00:38:44
Speaker
But not everybody who has subjective cognitive decline gets dementia. And there's it's it seems that there's a lot that you can still do it you know in that period of time. But then it's it's still going to be going back to like what are my most major risk factors and you know how can I address those? So like those are all the big ticket items that that we talked about that we talked about earlier.
00:39:05
Speaker
Once you get further down that trajectory, It gets more and more controversial, I'll say, as to whether you can fully reverse that process. There are certainly case reports in the literature that say, you know even once you've had people with diagnosed with dementia, they can get the other side of that such that they're no longer, right they can become independent again.
00:39:25
Speaker
But we're not at a point where we can say like Alzheimer's disease is reversible. But with those same interventions, you physical activity, yeah improving cardiovascular health, nutrient status, you do seem to be able to improve quality of life and function regardless of where you are on that
Maximizing Brain Health Outcomes
00:39:43
Speaker
trajectory. So,
00:39:45
Speaker
I think you know that's not the same as like fully reversing the disease process, but that one of the reasons why spend so much time focusing on those like core things that I mentioned earlier, that's what I built into the 3S model, is that whether you're like just leaving the neonatal intensive care unit because you're born preterm or you're 80 years old and you have some some um evidence of cognitive decline, like those same things are having an effect for everybody or, you know, recovering from a concussion or you're trying to improve cognitive function because, you you know, it's important for a yeah high level performance.
00:40:24
Speaker
So those same things just seem to be important again and again and again. And are there keystones within it? I mean, I think about stimulus and the research as hearing goes, that it can accelerate this. And so you're losing an important entry point to stimulus because you you may check out of more conversations, you may become less sociable. So a lot. So, hey, look, if that's something you're starting to see, get hearing aids maybe sooner rather than later, really protect that hearing or on the nutrient side,
00:40:54
Speaker
you know it I think the the big thing people talk about a ton now is creatine, not just for the meatheads, but like, hey, look for for the the brain health. Here's one of the things that it does.
00:41:06
Speaker
Or I've heard also Alzheimer's described as 3 diabetes. of saying, okay, well, would a GLP-1 or a SGLT-2 inhibitor, like, would those things help kind of reverse much less recent studies with lithium and all these? So I guess the question on this, like, once you're getting there, are there certain keystone things you're like, hey, these small actions, or even if they're not that small, have outsized positive impact?
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah, so I think the... you can you can look at these ah at multiple levels, but and but the the highest levels are the ones that see where you see the most the most impact. So um if we if we go back to the stimulus side, so you you mentioned hearing aids. So like if you're experiencing hearing loss, hearing aids, absolutely. and And it's something that people avoid because there's kind of some stigma attached to it. But the evidence certainly suggests, especially if you're at risk of dementia for other reasons like poor physical or cardiovascular health.
00:42:03
Speaker
There's randomized control trial data now to to show that that having hearing aids ah is protective. Similar evidence for cataract surgery if you have cataracts, right? Because eyesight loss is the same. um smell ah Smell, like loss of smell after COVID, that was associated with changing in cognitive function.
00:42:21
Speaker
But you can also retrain that, um right? there's there's protocol There's protocols to do that. um So If you've lost the sense, right, that's a ah working hard to recover that sense is is important. And like some of it's like loss of direct input to the brain, but it's also the exact thing that you said, which is that you stop doing things because you've lost that sense, right? um And so you're you're losing a whole bunch of, ah you know, immeasurable stimuli because of that.
00:42:49
Speaker
Then in terms of like skills, like all the things that I mentioned seem to have very similar effects. There was a very nice study published in Nature very recently um that looked at creative experiences and how they affect the activity and function of different networks in the brain, um especially networks in the brain that ah that are at risk with aging with aging processes.
00:43:12
Speaker
And so that's like art, dance, language, music, video games even. and so All that to say that just continuing to engage in these complex skills and continuing to learn these complex skills, and to some extent, it doesn't really matter which you pick because it has to be just like one that you're going to continue to do and you're going to enjoy. so those are like the the big ticket items that have an outsized effect, I think, in that bucket.
00:43:42
Speaker
And then from from the nutrition side, yes, all the and individual and nutrients I mentioned earlier are very important. The easiest way to tackle that is to have nutrient-dense, varied diet, which is kind of vague, but there are there are so many ways to to skin that cat. And actually, there's very little evidence that one diet is better than another. um And there were there are two main things you're trying to tick.
00:44:09
Speaker
And a sort of like a whole foods, nutrient-dense diet ticks these boxes most easily. One is just nutrient density, right? you're getting You're probably going to be getting more choline, omega-3s, magnesium, right? Potassium, which is really important for blood sugar sugar regulation, more polyphenols, all that kind of stuff.
00:44:29
Speaker
Right? So that's one. And then the other is you're much more likely to be able to manage your your energy status. And um there was there was a recent trial that compared the MIND diet, which is like ah a Mediterranean style diet specifically for cognitive function. They compared that to caloric restriction in a group of older adults.
00:44:50
Speaker
And basically both of them improved cognitive function the same amount. um And that's because... One's a lot more fun. Yeah, one's a lot more fun. Yeah, right. But but the thing is that they like a lot of people still... write like i I would be very happy if people ate a mind-style diet, right?
00:45:07
Speaker
But you could consider that trial to be a failure of the mind diet because it didn't be out like boring, standard dieting, just eating less of what you're currently eating. But that's because in the modern environment, the biggest contributor to lower brain reserve, which then, so like it was just a smaller brain, which then increases, like decreases the buffer you have available, makes it more likely that you'll lose significant function over time is energy status.
00:45:35
Speaker
So low energy status, which is very common in athletes, actually, is associated with lower brain volumes, as is excess energy availability. So cardiovascular disease, prediabetes, metabolic disease.
00:45:48
Speaker
And so... eating ah sort of a varied whole foods based diet um makes it harder to overeat, makes it easier to to control your appetite, makes it much more likely that you'll actually have an adequate amount of energy because you have this sort of inverted yeah U-shaped curve between like brain volume and we want as much brain as possible.
00:46:10
Speaker
and energy status. So like too little is isn't great. And so that's why I think lots of fasting and lots of caloric restriction, probably not the best for your brain, as well as you know, too much has the same problem. So that's why just like at a big level, it's, you know, how varied a nutrient dense diet can you consume, you're probably going to tick those boxes very easily. And then you don't have to necessarily get into the nitty gritty as much.
00:46:35
Speaker
And then I guess on the support side, mean, is it just like get eight hours in bed? Like the best thing you can do is just baseline. Get eight hours in bed and then you can worry about cooling the temperature. Yeah, don't smoke, don't drink too much. And then, yeah, give yourself...
00:46:52
Speaker
ah enough sleep opportunity. Like the most common cause of inadequate sleep is not spending enough time in bed, even in elite level athletes. and I've seen their sleep data and they're like, I'm really worried. I'm only getting six hours of sleep a night. i'm like, yeah, because you're spending six and a half hours in bed. Like what? I can't, I can't fix that. There's no supplement. yeah There's no supplement for that.
00:47:14
Speaker
The best recommendation I heard from one of our guests, Michael Chernow, was don't worry about your morning wake up alarm. The more important alarm is your go to bed alarm. Yeah, yeah. get yeah You set your bedtime alarm. And then even if you don't do it right, then at least get you in the mindset of, you know, i i and the better me would go to bed now.
00:47:32
Speaker
Yeah, no, 100%. That's great. And that's great advice. um I think I think I have that as one of the the ideas for like supporting sleep in my book, because I think it's it is a great idea, even though it like it feels really kooky.
00:47:43
Speaker
Most of us have to get up at a specific time, right? We got jobs, kids have stuff to goes go to school, right? That doesn't change. So the the variable we can, we can change ourselves is when we go to bed. So however we can make that.
00:47:57
Speaker
as frictionless as possible, the better. but But yeah, for like in the support side, honestly, the the biggest ticket item is is adequate sleep. And getting enough sleep opportunity is the is the easiest way to to change
Conclusion and Further Learning Resources
00:48:11
Speaker
that.
00:48:11
Speaker
Well, Dr. Wood, there are a lot more questions i could and would ask. And so maybe we'll have to ask you to come back. of course But again, the the book is The Stimulated Mind. Thank you so much for your work over the years, for putting all that into a book and for coming on today and sharing all this with our listeners.
00:48:30
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me. ah This is great. i you know there There may well be questions that you and the listeners have that you want to dig into more of those details. I'm always happy to come back and do that.
00:48:41
Speaker
If you can wait a few months, then a lot of that is in the book. um It's available for pre-order right now. You can go to thestimulatedmind.com. Wherever you buy books, we'll sell it to you. um Pre-orders are super helpful for me because then my publisher believes that somebody is going to buy the book.
00:48:58
Speaker
um even though I appreciate it's it's not going to be out to early next year. But in the meantime, i do have a free sub stack that has a podcast that I do with my ah friend Josh that I mentioned earlier, which is betterbrain.fitness. And you can get a bunch of additional stuff there and is a question and answer format podcast. So if if you disagree with or you have any additional questions but ah based on anything I said today, you can come there, ask us questions, we can answer them on the podcast. um um I'd love to see anybody there.
00:49:27
Speaker
Thank you so much, Dr. Wynn. We'll make sure to put those in the show notes so people have easy access as well. And thank you, our listeners, for joining us and enjoy a lively day. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Home of Healthspan podcast.
00:49:41
Speaker
And remember, you can always find the products, practices, and routines mentioned by today's guests, as well as many other healthspan role models on alively.com. Enjoy a lively day.