Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca and I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands. Always was, always will be.
Speaker: Today's episode features Liz Doran, a screenwriter, showrunner, and one of the executive producers of the new six-part series My Brilliant Career, which is produced by Jungle Entertainment and releases on Netflix on August 13.
Speaker: A series adaptation of Miles Franklin's beloved Australian novel, My Brilliant Career is set in 1900 and follows Sybylla a shockingly modern young woman with one searing ambition, to be a writer, while her family is determined to marry her off.
Speaker: For her, the choice between adventure or marriage seems easy until she falls in love. Will Sybylla marry or will she risk it all for a creative life?
Speaker: Liz executive produced the series with set-up director Alyssa McClelland and previous podcast guest Chloe Rickard from Jungle Entertainment. Before we get to the chat, a bit about Liz's extensive career first. She has also co-created and written series such as Barons and Ready for This, wrote on series 1 to 5 of Doctor Doctor, and script produced and wrote on all four seasons of Please Like Me. Some other writing credits include episodes of Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries, The Secret Life of Us, ah McLeod's Daughters, and Dance Academy. And in 2020, Liz also produced, under her own production banner, the short-form online series The Tailings.
Speaker: Throughout the episode, Liz talks about getting the call about working on My Brilliant Career while producing The Tailings, the five-year development period that followed, their new approach to Miles Franklin's novel, pitching to Netflix, favorite 1900s-era slang, and much more.
Speaker: Here's that chat.
Speaker: We always start the podcast the same way, which is to talk about inciting incidents. So could you tell me what the inciting incident was for your career? Yes, I think for my screenwriting career it was Secret Life of Us.
Speaker: Like I think that I've been trying to, i worked previously as an editor, like a film editor. I've to film school. I was working as an editor but always trying to write, like sending in submissions and trying to knock on doors and doing all those things that, you know, emerging writers try and do And then I'd written ah a script which was kind of inner city, kind of lives of inner city people rom-com and I used that as a sample script and got an episode of Secret Life of Us.
Speaker: And that was such a great show ah to work on. But also it was my first credit and and i built I built from there. And I've got Amanda Hicks to thank for that one. And, yeah, if I hadn't been with Secret Life, I don't know if I would have a TV writing credit or career today.
Speaker: And um I'm interested because you said you were you started out as an editor. Do you think that that helped you as a writer, if at all, you know, once you started, once you moved into writing television? The one thing I think is that screenwriters in particular come from everywhere.
Speaker: Like so some of them are lawyers and some of them are playwrights or novelists or, you know, I've met all sorts of different people. But I will say that I think that the thing that editing gave me is that it meant I was a filmmaker. So I came i came to screenwriting as a filmmaker.
Speaker: It's the only job, apart from hospital, when I was studying, it's the only job I've ever had. So, you know, i went to film school twice and came out as a filmmaker.
Speaker: And so I worked on everything. I was on set. I did continuity on a feature film. I worked professionally as ah as a film editor, edited a bunch of documentaries and bad TV and not drama and was writing so that it means that I don't know that it helps so much.
Speaker: just to be a screenwriter but to be a showrunner. it It helps absolutely that I have this filmmaking background so I'm comfortable on set. I'm really comfortable in post-production, really very happy in post. um It definitely helps me. It definitely helps me in post-production to have had that background because I have a lot of shortcuts with editors and I've been through that whole process. there's no mysteries in that process for me.
Speaker: so yeah, I don't know. i mean Yeah, as I said, all writers bring different things to writing, but having a filmmaking background is really useful once you become an EP and you're actually engaging in that process of of actually making the show.
Speaker: Yeah, I suppose one of the reasons I asked it was, you know, you were so good at writing, like inserting comedy into your worlds, like whether it's from Please Like Me and My Brilliant Career is so funny, like, and there's a pace to comedy, there's like a timing. And I suppose that's what I was kind of thinking about when I thought of you. your background as an editor is like this inherent understanding of timing and whether you think that that came from there or that's just, you know, that's just kind of who you are. No, I think what is quite good, mean, I think the comedy is...
Speaker: is where I'm most comfortable. Like the shows I love writing have a bit of comedy in them. Like, I mean, obviously Secret Life, but I did five seasons of Doctor Doctor, which was, you know, Tony McNamara created that show who also is a very funny person, always puts comedy in his work. And that wasn't really a show about being a doctor. Yeah. Because ah because otherwise I would have been in big trouble. Yeah.
Speaker: you know that was the show about That's the show about what goes on behind the scenes, not really. Well, they were medical emergencies. Just wasn't that interested in them. um But I think the one thing that my editing background definitely gives me with writing that I find is that I'm, you know, you always write a first draft and always long, but I'm quite good and I'm a very good editor. I know when to come in late and leave early because I always, as I'm reading a script, I'm always like, well,
Speaker: that bit's going to get cut out. You're not going to, like that whole preamble, you have to write it. Like you have to write the preamble in order to get to the meat of a scene. But I'm very good at it. someone says take five pages over out of this script, I'm like,
Speaker: i'm no worries I can do that straight away yeah yeah and so you know executive produce and showrunner of my brilliant career also wrote on it um and you had co-created and and ep'd on series before you know ready for this things like that but I'm interested to know because ah we have actually spoken before and it was when ah the tailings was about to release which was a short film series that you produced uh released in 2021 we had that For the for um Screen Australia. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. um And I was wondering, it it did that time working just purely as a producer, did that help prep you um in a different way for when it came to making My Brilliant Career?
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. I mean, i think I over-trained. Okay. like but I mean, I definitely over-trained. Like, you know, I was determined, like when I did the turnings, I was like, you can't be a showrunner unless you've actually produced something that's ridiculous. I don't know. But I think you can. Yeah. It turns out. And I was pretty out of my depth on the tailings a lot of a time. But,
Speaker: I did learn, I learnt a huge amount by doing that show, by producing that show. I learnt just so much. Like it was such a learning curve. I think what it, I think what I've always, I've always gone very well with producers. Like I i really think that the producer-writer relationship is foundational. Like I think that a functional relationship between a producer and a writer will produce the best work. Mm-hmm. And so i've really, really believe in producers. I trust their judgment and you hope that you find that creative partnership.
Speaker: And, you know, I've worked with some really amazing producers, like I've worked with Jo Werner and John Molloy and, you know, Blackfella Films and Easy Tiger, like really great people. But I have to say that my relationship with Chloe Rickard on this one was probably one of my favourites and best relationships that I've had as a creative collaboration.
Speaker: um which we then, you know, then you build with a set-up director like Alyssa McClelland and, you know, that's like a powerhouse of like if you're all on the same page then you're like you're just ready to go. But now, so now I think what the tailings gave me is an appreciation for what producers do and a respect for the work that they do and also an understanding of the amount of work that it takes to actually produce a show and the amount of energy and creative energy that you have to put into it. So I think definitely that show, yeah, it's really helped me in a sense. that What's beautiful about being an EP writer is you don't have to worry about the production. Like you like i'm I'm across it, like in a sense, like at any point,
Speaker: I can look at the budget. i have a lot of Like when you're in production, you have a lot of conversations with the producer and the line producer about where you're going over or locations you can't use or can you change all the scripts to suit this current emergency that we've got. So you're always involved.
Speaker: But the fact that I'm not in charge of it is such a huge relief to me. yeah um And having having a functional production office, which we did, Paul Ranford was the producer, And then Chloe and Alyssa and I were the executive producers, so kind of like doing our job but being the kind of creative panel across everything made everything so much easier for me. so I didn't have to.
Speaker: be the producer anymore. Well, um I do remember that when we were talking about the tailings that you were kind of like, yeah, I'm i'm done with contracting and Excel for a while. I'm looking forward to opening final draft. And that was 2021. And my brilliant career was in development for five years. So maths isn't my best subject, but According to that, that yeah it would be straight I had started.
Speaker: i had I had actually, in fact, interestingly enough, I was on the tailings as a producer. So I think we talked about a lot. I believe it was cost report meetings yes that I was glad never to, never, and I didn't go to any more either on this one. They're like, do you want to come to the cost report meeting? And I was like, really got some scripts to amend. I don't think so. um I would, so we that was my first and only producing gig. It was low budget.
Speaker: It was COVID. So my co-producer partner was stuck in Melbourne. He couldn't move. We were shooting in COVID in Queenstown in Tasmania. Yeah.
Speaker: So like the the most remote town in the entire country under lockdown. And so I was incredibly stressed. Like I was just, my head was exploding and imploding and everything all at once.
Speaker: And I got a call from my agent and he said to me, you know, like, I know, it's like, darling, darling, I know you're really busy. Yeah. So you don't have to answer me straight away. But I've had a call from Jungle about adapting my brilliant career. And I just was like, say yes, and i will deal with the deal. Because as soon as I heard the words my brilliant career, I was just like,
Speaker: Absolutely. if they even speak to anyone else, I will die if I don't get to do that show. Like that would kill me. and And still to this day I think, wow, if I hadn't, if if i if I was listening and someone else, because, you know, there's a lot of really amazing screenwriters who I know personally who could have done this job and if I found out that any of the others were doing it, I would have been so jealous. Like, you can't.
Speaker: I honestly don't know if I could have hoped. Well, it it is, um you know, it does have kind of a lot of legacy around it. There is the original, you know, 1901 book by Miles Franklin and, of course, like the beloved 1979 film. um So during this five-year development period, like what was your kind of approach on how to, yeah, maybe do a different take than than what had been prior?
Speaker: Well, I'd seen the movie when it came out and I was like three. No, I was a child. but i um But i ah to this day I haven't watched the movie ever again ah because I thought so – It's very clear in my head what happened in that movie. It was really it really imprinted very deeply on me, but I i made a very clear decision. i was like, I'm not going to watch that movie because what we are going to do is go back to the source material and make something that just comes completely from from that material. So that's what I did, went back to the book.
Speaker: And ah what I read there was really surprising to me, actually. Like it was um because the movie is, I can't talk about it because i haven't seen it since whenever it was, probably about 1980. I'm sure I saw it on TV on a rerun. But the book itself is, it's quite loose and non-narrative and it's it's actually it's actually kind of very weird contemporary story stream of consciousness novel. Like it's kind of amazing that it was written when it was written and by the age of Miles Franklin. It's it's kind of incredible. It's a mess.
Speaker: Like it's really messy. It has all these, you know, people sort of go, oh, the the adaptation is really perfect. It's like I really want everyone to go back and read this novel because it is like you read it and you're like, wow, there's just so much here. It's this it's this world that kind of just blah, blah comes up from the page. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So anyway, I base everything on that first reading of the novel and a few things occurred. One was that there were no First Nations people or that any mention of First Nations people is not that complimentary but super tiny, like you literally have to go and look for it.
Speaker: So it was ah it's a very white colonial novel really in lots of ways. It's kind of amazing in other ways but actually it's really old-fashioned in others and doesn't really represent the Australia that we have now. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Anyway, so we did what you always do. We assembled a writer's room and, you know, we did writer's rooms on this show from the end 2020 right through i guess we we were shooting it in 25. So right through to the end of 2024 we were doing all sorts, lots and lots of different writer's rooms and ah the rooms were always made up of a quite a diverse group of people, writers, always with strong First Nations representation in there. And we had one room with one man. Ben Law came into the room for like a week, but otherwise we're all women always. That was kind of purposeful, but actually then it just sort of became a thing running on half women. So we talked a lot in these rooms. and in the In the early rooms, we really tried to
Speaker: figure out how we could add First Nations storyline. Because, I mean, essentially one of the big, I think the biggest change that we've made is that we have added these new characters, Nell and Betty and Charlie and Rose, the their mother.
Speaker: We just made them up. They're not in the book at all. But Chloe and I both felt it was very important that the book, you couldn't make a white colonial story in 2025, 26. It just sort of doesn't make sense for where we are as a,
Speaker: country. so So we had to add a First Nations story to this work. And that was actually probably the hardest part of the development.
Speaker: It was the most interesting. So we did a lot of research. We interviewed a lot of people who were academics. We read books that were kind of both academic books and and also just talked to the First Nations writers that we had and talked about their family histories and what they knew just personally from their own experience.
Speaker: and went down some really wrong paths. Like, you know, went down these paths where it was kind of like when I look at some of the early drafts, I'm like, what we thinking? We were just trying, trying to work out where we'd fit it because the the real story of Aboriginal people at that time is often quite traumatic. And so the genre of my brilliant career requires that the the umbrella of love versus career is our overriding structural goalposts, you know. And we did come up with one draft and we read it and we were like, oh, these are just two different worlds.
Speaker: You know, there's the white world of romance and what will I do with my life? And then the Aboriginal stories, which were, you know, pretty doom and gloom. So then we went back into the room again and um again and again, actually, and,
Speaker: And then looked at it through that prism of love versus career and the genre. The genre is it's a romance period, costume romance. That's our genre. This is love and career. And then we discovered along the way these really amazing Aboriginal stockwomen from the turn of the century who were these really strong characters who trained horses and worked alongside the men, went driving and did all those things.
Speaker: And so that's when we came up, we were like, well, Nell should be stock woman. And what if Nell's dad was the foreman? Like Nell's dad is white, her mom is Aboriginal. Like what if he was the foreman? What if she grew up at Caddegat? So her career goal, her dream is to follow in her dad's footsteps. And that's great. There's plenty of obstacles to that, you know, that she's First Nations, that she's a woman, that she's tiny.
Speaker: Like, you know, there's lots of obstacles to that, but that could be her career goal. you know And then it brings in that thematic that you were talking about, the love versus career. Yeah. yeah Yeah. And so then, you know, and we tried that out on a few trusted and quite terrifying First Nations friends and colleagues because, you know, actually one person came in and they were like,
Speaker: okay, this is the most racist book I've ever read in my life, so prove to me that I should be sitting in this room at all and talking about this book. And um I was like, okay, no pressure. Yeah. um And so that was the person. and I want to name them and not because it's just because I don't want these words to be their words, you know, even though they were. i'm not But I showed her these scripts and said, okay, this is our new direction and I'm pretty scared to show you these scripts because I know that the First Nations stories are kind of romance and career, you know, but let me know what you think. And she came back and she was just so encouraging and she said, the thing I love about the direction, this new direction is that my aunties are safe to watch this show. There's no trauma.
Speaker: Like it's a safe space for First Nations people in the same way that it's a safe space for white people to watch. So that was a very long-winded answer, but it was really a very important um thing and aspect of the development that we really took a lot of care and attention and I hope paid due respect for to arriving at the place we arrived at with that particular storyline. Yeah, definitely. and um Well, I hope so. No, no i've I've seen a few episodes and, yeah, it's really beautifully weaved in.
Speaker: I'm wondering, like, at what point – then did you pitch this to Netflix or did Netflix kind of pick up the idea? Like, is it a few years ago? no, that's such a great story. That's such a great story. So from the very start, Chloe and I were both, you know, you're always talking about who you're going to pitch it to, you know, who you're going to pitch, you can pitch.
Speaker: And Netflix was the top of our list. I mean, for several reasons. One, I mean, just practical terms, it had to be a streamer. We needed, it's a big budget. You know, you can't you can't make a period costume drama without a pretty healthy budget. So we knew we had to go to one of the streamers.
Speaker: And then secondly, we really thought this was an Australian story that would have worldwide appeal. that we could tell in a really authentically Australian way and not make any compromises in that, but that it would, because it has a universal appeal at the heart of its story, that that would translate. and We don't know whether that's the case, but that was why we landed at Netflix and we pitched it.
Speaker: think I'd done a first draft. of the first episode of the pilot. And I do want to say I have never written as many drafts of a pilot episode ever in my entire life. like How many are we talking? Oh, at least 100, like an enormous, an enormous number. Anyway, the very first one um went to Netflix along with, you know, a usual pitch document and a series Bible, um but we hadn't written of any of the other episodes.
Speaker: And we were pitching to Que Minh Luu, who was the, you know, head of Netflix (Australia) at the time. And Chloe and I are both good girls, so we rehearsed our pitch.
Speaker: We were like, okay, we practiced it and we did it to each other and we rewrote it and we really kind of had it. We were so proud. And literally we got about halfway through the pitch and Que was like, oh, I'm just going to stop you right there. I'm going to put it into development. I love it. We were both almost like,
Speaker: We haven't actually finished the pitch. Like we practice this. um Yeah. Unfulfilled. You're like, oh, no, i need to get to the closure. Yeah. yeah This goes against all of our good girls.
Speaker: But so actually they were on board really super early. Great. And so, yeah, they they've been that and and they've been really wonderful to work with. um got no I've got no complaints about Netflix. They were really fantastic.
Speaker: Oh, great. I want to take it to this um segment that we do, which ah is a segment called Pay It Forward. So it's where you'll be asked a question by a previous guest and then you come up with a question for our next guest. Oh God. Okay.
Speaker: your pay it forward question is from script editor and screenwriter Gemma Crofts, who says, hi, by the way, because I believe you work together. um So Gemma said, I was wondering if you could change any one thing for the positive in the Australian film industry, what would it be?
Speaker: In the industry? That's quite a big question. I think that in production. um In the screen industry, broadly. i Look, I think, and this is going to sound self-serving and I don't mean it this way, but actually we ran a mental health program during the making of my brilliant career.
Speaker: And I think it was really instructive. As part of the program, we got crew members. like you form There were certain people who became team leaders, mental health leaders. I forgot they had a different term, but so mental health leaders. And so there were maybe like 20 people in the crew. And, you know, I was one and Chloe was one and the first were one. But then there was also like ah one of our runners was one, you know, the head of unit, a unit based guy was one, you know, safety officer, like all sorts of different people.
Speaker: So we got these mental health leaders spread throughout and we all got special training about checking in on people and how to deal with certain situations and, how to recognise if someone's in trouble and what kind of conversations to have and how you can help them, or very basic kind of being mental health ambassadors in a way.
Speaker: And actually it was really great. It was really useful and one of the things that was really instructive and interesting for me was how stressful people found the process of being in film and television and and how many people either had struggled themselves with mental illness or knew someone who had. And I think that I would encourage other productions to take mental health of their cast and crew seriously in the way that we did. And we didn't get it all right, but actually I think having that structure embedded in the production meant that we were prepared and we were prepared to
Speaker: talk to people and and and deal with the mental health of our cast and crew, you know, a kind of professional structured way, which was really useful. Yeah, amazing. I love that, especially in like a freelance industry for something like that. Correct. Yeah. It's really something that gets overlooked. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: ah And I wonder, um I know we're nearly out of time, but um gosh, I feel like we could talk about this show for ages. Maybe something kind of fun to to end with, which is that you use some really great Aussie slang in the show. and I'm wondering. the Victorian slang. Exactly. If there's a favourite bit you'd like to bring back. Mine personally has got the Morbs which is being temporary melancholy.
Speaker: But do you have Do have a Well, I mean, the Morbs is also my favorite. Okay, sorry. No, i' fine, because it it didn't make it to the cut. Okay. Like it's not in the show. Damn. my favorite one. i know. Like there's a scene. I'll tell you where it should have been, but it got cut for time.
Speaker: when Sybylla and um Frank are in the cart going towards Caddegat they meet Harry along the way. Ep one. Ep one. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's my favourite. Yeah. you know that's straight Yeah. It's no spoilers.
Speaker: Sybylla goes to Caddgat. That is not a spoiler. And they're in the, um, in the little sulky and they meet up with Harry and he's sort of grumpy and then he rides off. And, um,
Speaker: there's a moment where Sybilla turns to Frank and she says, well, he's got the morbs. And I just really want, and it was part of a longer scene and that scene just went on for too long. We had to cut it. So i was very disappointed about that.
Speaker: But there's, there's so many. There's one that Kate Mulvaney says that is, oh, Skillamink. Skillamink is really good. That's like a silly one. Um, There's just so many good ones. I think we should try and make it a thing. Bring it back. Bring it back. Yeah. Bring them back. Yeah. Yeah. Afternoonified is great.
Speaker: Champagne weather is another favourite. Really like that one. yeah Yeah. Champagne weather is great. That's when it's rainy for those who aren't familiar with their Victorian slang. It's a very rainy day. Champagne weather. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, um it does show your your editor side did have to come in on that cut, but people now know when they watch Ep 1 that they're um they can imagine. Oh, I know. but um It is better. it's It's better how it is. The pacing. we' got to do get yeah We didn't get the morbs. Yeah, yeah. I love that. You've got the morbs. We should just make it a thing. Let's do it. Let's do it. Just start it, yeah.
Speaker: Well, i won't take up any more of your time. We'll leave it there. But thank you so much for the chat today. No, it's been delightful to see you again. That was Liz Doran, a screenwriter, showrunner, and one of the executive producers of My Brilliant Career, which you can watch all six episodes of on Netflix from August 13.
Speaker: This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo design by Shara Parsons and music by Seb Sebotage-Gavrilovic. If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review. See you in a fortnight.
