Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca and I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands. Always was, always will be.
Speaker: Today's episode features Gemma Crofts, an award-winning screenwriter, a script editor, and former development executive, with more than 15 years' experience across film and television development.
Speaker: As a writer, Gemma has worked on shows for Netflix, Fremantle, Werner Film Productions, Orange Entertainment, and SBS, most notably Surviving Summer for Netflix.
Speaker: Some of her projects in development include a US rom-com starring Emmy award-winning actor Justin Hartley for Happy Accidents, and And as a co-creator of Twisted, a series adaptation of iconic Australian author Paul Jennings' short stories for Fremantle Media.
Speaker: She has also worked as a development executive for production companies such as Werner Productions and was formally trained in story development at the prestigious European-based Binger Film Lab.
Speaker: Throughout the podcast, Gemma talks about what a script editor does, takeaways from her time as a development executive, how to understand what the note behind the note is, what she enjoys about working across different genres and much more.
Speaker: Here's that chat. so we always start the podcast the same way, which is talking about inciting incidents. Could you tell me about the inciting incident of your career?
Speaker: So there's kind of, I have two-step inciting incident because there's the incidents that got me into development and script editing, and then there's the incidents that got me into writing. So I grew up in a country town in Victoria in the 90s where, you know, creative careers weren't really smiled upon. So i was kind of given the impression that people who work in the creative industries are geniuses, right? And I wasn't a genius, so I should look to do something else. So i went and worked in um festivals and events for a while. And then I was like, right, I'm going to use the experience I have in producing and get into producing in film and TV.
Speaker: So I went and did the producers course at the VCA. yeah And while I was there, I discovered this thing called development. And I was like, oh my God, that's it. Like, that's how you work with writers. You be creative. You get to do all the things that I really want to do and not be a genius. Yeah.
Speaker: So I started working back then that not many companies had development executives in Australia. It wasn't really a thing, but ah they were starting to realize that development was really important. So I worked as a development executive for a few companies and it was that experience that made me realize that not all writers are geniuses.
Speaker: okay And if you work hard, you can be a writer and not be a genius. So I started writing on the side. And I started entering competitions and I entered AWG used to run more competitions back then than it does now. And I got shortlisted for the first one. And then I won the Monte Miller on the second competition that I entered. So I was from then I was absolutely hooked. And I was like, I'm going to be a development person and I'm going to be a writer. And this is going to be my future.
Speaker: Wow. And you said that development executives um weren't really as much of a thing. How did things get developed then? Was it more like in-house?
Speaker: The producers just did it. Okay. So developing scripts was something that producers and writers did together and hoped for the best. Yeah. yeah Okay. Interesting. And um what do you feel like, you know, you have been your key takeaways from working in development that you can apply, you know, as a writer? Yeah.
Speaker: It's a really good question. And i think I think the biggest thing that I use when i approaching these things is that personally speaking, and I can't speak for every script at editor, a but personally speaking, I can't do it for myself. The skills that I have as a script editor, all the the experience I have in development, when it comes to my own writing, I still need someone else to do that for me. So i had a client recently we'd been working on a project for a while and he sent me a draft and I wrote back and said, okay, well, there's a logic.
Speaker: mistake in this you'll need to fix and he was like I cannot believe I missed that and it's like yeah of course like you can't do it like it's you do need an outside eye you need someone to reflect back to you what is there and you know having been both a writer and a script editor now for 15 years it's it's very clear to me that all of us still need that extra outside helping hand And in terms of what a script editor does, what is a script editor? What does it involve?
Speaker: Well, personally, so i feel like every script editor works really differently. And it also is very dependent on the project. So personally, i tailor a process to the project and to the writer. So it's it's a matter of really becoming close to the writer, getting to know them, getting to know and getting to know what they want what they're trying to do. So that's the most important thing to pinpoint for me when I start on a job is to find out what the goal is. What are they trying to get out of it? Where are they trying to get this to? What are they trying to say? And then it's my job to help them achieve that. And it depends on, like, again, it depends on the project, but it also depends on the level of skill that the writer has, where they're at in their career, as to what they want from me. So when I'm working with an emerging writer, I'm quite hands-on. I've worked with emerging writers before who haven't even written a script before. So on that level, I'm even teaching them how to write a scene.
Speaker: But then working with someone more experienced who doesn't need that level of hand-holding. And on that level, it's more of ah like I said, reflecting back to them what they've done and how that's coming across to a new person who's reading their script for the first time. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And what is the Solace am I saying that, Solace? Solace 23 school of script development? So back when I started started being a development executive, I'd worked for a couple of years and I realised I wanted more. I wanted to understand more about what I was doing. I wanted it because I was doing it from an emotional place, not an intellectual place. And I wanted to be able to approach it in a more dispassionate way. And I couldn't find any training opportunities and development in Australia.
Speaker: But I did know people who had gone to the Binger Film Lab in Amsterdam as writers or directors. So I looked them up and they were offering a, they called it a script consultation training, which was run by this German couple and they call themselves Solace 23. So I went over there and I worked with these two Germans in a group of other aspiring development professionals from all over the world. Like there were some Brazilians, there were, course, Americans, and it was amazing.
Speaker: really like life-changing because it gave me language to speak about what I was doing in a more helpful way. So what it I won't give it all away because first of all, they still do that course. Binger a Film Lab doesn't exist anymore, but they offer it. It's in Berlin. Everyone should go and do it. And second of all, pay me.
Speaker: But the the kind of underlying philosophy is that as someone working on a script with a writer, you need to divorce yourself from the process. So there is no sense of what I want out of this script in it anymore. It is me as a reflection of what the writer is trying to achieve. so And it was also really good in a larger sense for my development career because when you're working with producers, no one really cares what my personal taste is. You know, like I would maybe like this
Speaker: zombie horror flick, but the producers that I was working with, that's not what they were looking for. So it's it's a really good lesson in being dispassionate and being arm's length from something and being able to reflect back.
Speaker: So it's reflecting back what the writer has on the page in contrast to what the writer is trying to achieve and then working with them to narrow that gap. So as a script editor, I will very, very rarely suggest solves or changes, unless I think they're really good.
Speaker: yeah um But I will work with the writer so that the writer can find those solutions and and changes that get it closer to what they want it to be rather than what my experience is telling me it should be.
Speaker: m Which is empowering as well for the writer. It's their ownership over the story remains intact. Exactly. And it was, yeah, because i think a lot of development and producers in Australia come from that place of the gut, which is, it's not, it's not necessarily bad, but sometimes it's not necessarily useful either. Like the number of notes that I've had where I feel like this is weak, like great, great.
Speaker: But that doesn't tell you much. Like, you know, how we're always talking about find the note behind the note. What if you didn't have to do that? What if the note was useful in the first place? Yeah.
Speaker: Do you have any advice for people who are getting feedback like that finding the note behind the note? Finding the note behind the note, i I think is just a matter of experience, right? Like I...
Speaker: remember years ago I gave something that I was working on to a very experienced writer and he came back and said oh I think you need to get rid of the first five pages and I I actually stopped working on it because I was like I love those first five pages I'm not gonna cut those first five favorite pages and then after a while you know I went back to it went oh I see what he's saying he's saying the backstory is holding up the story So it wasn't that I had to cut the literally cut the first five pages. It was like the backstory that you cut it, like give it a different way or cut it down. so
Speaker: yeah, I do think that the note behind the note becomes second nature as you become more experienced in getting those notes. doesn't make it less frustrating when the notes are a little bit opaque. Yeah. Yeah. And and look, there's I don't think there's necessarily, think as I said, there's necessarily anything wrong with notes like that. It's just that there's another way of thinking about it, which is avoiding gut feeling notes and and translating them into, if that's bumping me, why is it bumping me? It's bumping me because the writer is not achieving what the writer is trying to do there. Yeah, it's it's kind of interesting. The way that you talk about it is like, it makes me think of like objectivity, subjectivity a lot. And it's kind of like you're getting a very subjective note. I feel like this when I read this part, or I think you should do this. And it's almost like from your experience in the schools of development and things like that, it's about looking at the
Speaker: objective way of doing that. is um And removing that emotion a little bit rather than, hey, wait, yeah I like it. yeah yeah yeah i do have to say, like, having said all that, part of my job as a script editor is often contributing creatively as well. So a lot of the times we'll have a feature submission and there won't be enough meat plot wise or character wise. So we will go into a writer's room and in a writer's room situation, it isn't, I'm no longer just reflecting back. I'm contributing as a writer in a writer's room. And once the writer has all that extra, you know, brainstorm and and bounce and, you know, all of those new um things that are popping off in their head, that's when I go back to helping them work out what serves it and what doesn't.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. And I'm keen to get to the writing side of things in just a minute, but a couple of extra um script editing questions. Because is it true or like do you have any thoughts on whether if you're really emerging and you're applying for funding, is it helpful to have a script editor, like an experienced script editor attached to a project to be part of a team? Yeah.
Speaker: My advice with that is there's this kind of, feel like, and it's not just emerging, I feel like there's this feeling in across all development applications that you have to have someone attached to script edit. And my advice with that is only attach someone if you intend in working with them constructively. Because I have been attached to projects before where the writer has,
Speaker: been, they haven't been open. So working with me, you have to open yourself up, right? You have to be vulnerable. you have to say, this is my creative work, which as a writer, I know how that is like your heart, but I trust you to come into this and work on it with me and I've had writers who have spent the entire time we've worked together go defending everything they've done and like oh no no but this is like that this is like that because of this this is like this because of it and it's like then we all just come away feeling sad right I feel sad because I haven't helped you feel sad because we haven't achieved anything that you want to do
Speaker: I can't speak for the other side of it. So I don't know if Screen Australia prefers you to come in with a script editor or not. I i know that there is this, it's kind of the fashion at the moment to attach a script editor to to everything. But yeah, my only opinion on it is you have to be prepared to work with that script editor. Don't just have them because it ticks a box. on a page. If you really think you can achieve the goals of your second draft or whatever draft you're up to without someone reflecting back, more power to you. And I respect that.
Speaker: Yeah. And with script editing, because you're a screenwriter as well, and you know, you have a slate of projects, like how do you balance those two things, which are quite different mindsets from the way you're talking about it? I'm really lucky that I freelance and I work from home.
Speaker: So that I have full control over my own diary and I can see into the future, like I can see my time and schedule it really strictly So I get maybe two kind of inquiries a week from mainly work with emerging writers, but occasionally someone more professional might pop ah up and I can just see really easily if I can schedule them in as well as leaving time for my own writing. So one day a week, my daughter goes to afterschool care and that day is a full day of writing for me. i
Speaker: lock it off. I don't do any other work that day. i just write. It's become, you know, quite natural to be able to see how long a job is going to take and schedule it around my other writing commitments.
Speaker: And could you talk through, you know, some of the projects you've worked on and if there are any genres you're particularly drawn to as a writer? i projects I've worked on as a writer or as a script editor? Yes, as a writer, yeah. So I was working with Jo Werner as a development executive at Werner and we developed a um teen surfing show called Surviving Summer. And Jo and I developed that and that became, so as kind of recognition to the fact that I had helped develop it, Jo gave me a script. So that was my first professional script
Speaker: script and my first professional credit. And around that time was the same time that I went freelance. So since then, you know, I've worked on i've worked on a lot of stuff that hasn't gotten produced. i think Classic life of a working writer. So I realized the other day that I've been making my living doing this since 2020, still am a associate member of the Writers Guild. Oh, right.
Speaker: Yeah. Because they their standards are how much produced, a time of produced screen time that you have. And I keep working on amazing shows with amazing people that falter at some step. But I think that's really normal for the industry. Not everything that goes into development is going to get up.
Speaker: And I think some some studios, some production companies, they even have a KPI of a particular ratio of development to production. So oh yeah people you know kind of understand that things are going to not make it to to screen. I mean, the biggest, most upsetting one that didn't go was ah Catherine Smythe McMullen's Netflix show that we spent a year writing. It was um Evil Fairies.
Speaker: And it was such a great show. so So much fun. I know I'm biased because I worked on it, but I have been in the industry for nearly 20 years and they were some of the best scripts I've ever read. by some of the best riders in Australia, it would have been a banger. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, devastating. um um But still, I'm sure they experience, like the development experience, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. that was my first paycheck.
Speaker: ah Yeah. so That was great. i ive worked I've worked on a couple of other TV shows that are still kind of working their way through the development system, but the kind of experience on those has made me, the development time that it takes to develop a TV show through a production company, because they are working on other things, it just takes so long that I started um kind of pivoting a bit back to features.
Speaker: So working on features, ah have two in development, active development at the moment, one with with an American company that we reimagined it so they could shoot it in Australia, which was really exciting. And that's got Justin Hartley attached to rom-com set in St Kilda. So hopefully that'll shoot next year, which is really fun.
Speaker: This episode is brought to you by AFTRS, the Australian Film, Television and Radio School. If you're looking to learn alongside experienced industry professionals, build networks and accelerate your career in Australia's screen industry, the Masters of Arts Screen Business at AFTRS is now taking applications for their next intake. Offering flexible study options, the course is designed to support ongoing career growth and long-term success by by building your commercial, strategic, and leadership skills. In doing so, you can expand your opportunities not just in producing, but in screen business, creative leadership, and entrepreneurship.
Speaker: If this sounds like the course for you, explore the Master of Arts Screen Business through the link in the show notes and submit an application for the upcoming intake. Music And, you know, you mentioned the series, Evil Fairies, and also this one being a rom-com. So, yeah, I was wondering, are there genres that you're particularly drawn to?
Speaker: It's a really good question. i Back before COVID, I used to have an American manager and she used to be really mad at me because she couldn't sell me as a specific genre writer because I do have genres that I'm drawn to, but they are really polar opposites. so you know, i have, I write rom-coms. I have a rom-com in development, but the other kind of scripts I write are like really dark genre, apocalyptic, horror-y, you know, that's my other script that's in development is ah zombie horror. So
Speaker: Yeah you know, what can I say? what What do you like about genre? Because they have, you know, very specific rules and world building. That's probably what I like about it, you know. so I'm autistic and I like rules. So it's probably what I'm drawn to. I like to um hit those beats and make them as interesting and different as possible while still you know, conforming to the bits that the film requires to to still be considered a horror or a ro a rom-com exactly the same, right? It has, a specific you know, you need the meet cue, you need the boy mix, you know, all of those those things. So it's actually, i also have done some adaptations, both real life and IP. And that as well is something I really enjoy because it is,
Speaker: taking something and putting it into the rules of screenwriting. So, you know, making sure it has a midpoint, making sure it has three acts or whatever is necessary to make it into the right shape for adaptation.
Speaker: Which is maybe helpful when looking at adaptation to figure out what to cut because that's some of the hardest stuff is like how does, yeah, once you can fit it into a format, yeah um it maybe gives you a bit more guidelines. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And working out what you don't need and what you do. And I just recently...
Speaker: pitched on a BBC ah adaptation of some IP. And that was really interesting because sometimes the IP isn't the strongest thing. Like sometimes it's actually better if the IP isn't the strongest thing because then you are a little bit freer to make whatever changes you need.
Speaker: to cut things out without worrying about it because you're like, well, I'm going to, I'm going to improve this anyways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was also wondering, so you talked about how you like block out, you know, days for writing and things like that. Some other days are a bit more mixed, but what is your writing process when you, you know, do have that time to sit down and dedicate it to a script? Yeah.
Speaker: So when I'm writing a feature, again, because i am i really because i am a mom, I have kids, i am working part-time really. So the way I write features these days is I take, quite a while to plot them out. So I have a whiteboard in my office. I plot it all out. I totally get across what it's going to look like. And then I go away for a weekend and just write the whole thing.
Speaker: wow So, you know, get somewhere away. Sometimes ah my group of writer friends, we go away, we do writer's weekends. Sometimes it's just me. but I sit down and write 90 pages just as fast as I possibly can. So that means that once I get back to the office, I have something to work on to to edit. it I don't know if I necessarily recommend this ah as a process because the biggest drawback that i that has I've realized is that I get back from these i go oh my gosh I've got a 90 page script I'm going to send it to everyone I know and
Speaker: and the responses trickle back going Gemma this this feels like a first draft and I'm like yeah yeah you it is But I'm like, but can't you see the potential? Yeah. um But I find revision much easier on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker: Being faced with a blank page when you don't have lots of time, i find really hard. So that's how I approach features. If I'm working on a TV show, it's much different because you're working from um a scene breakdown So it's just, you know, feeling, I don't say just, but it's feeling in that it's less confronting.
Speaker: And you said that you send it out to friends. is Is that part of your process as well? Like for a feature or your original IP, like sending it out to fellow writers? It depends if i if if if they owe me a ring. You know, that makes it sound like I have a group of people I could just send it to and they'll all read it. I have i definitely have writers who I can send things to, but we have ah like a reciprocal relationship. It's like writer's group type. Yeah, I just did some notes for a friend on a script and now I feel comfortable because this is these skills –
Speaker: They have spent years developing them, right? So I wouldn't want to just assume that I could have that for free. So I always make sure that it's reciprocal and what goes around comes around. And I would never, if someone doesn't owe me a favor, I would definitely offer to pay them. So I just want to, yeah, would never want assume that I could have their expertise. That makes total sense. And you mentioned at the start how you studied producing. How does that help you when it comes to your work as a writer or a script editor?
Speaker: Well, the thing is I studied producing in the noughties. So things have changed. I actually feel like I got much more useful, like my knowledge of producing comes from working with producers as a development executive because we were in the office together every day. So I wo i i was firsthand understanding what what it took once my part of it was done and then I was handed over to them. i think the biggest help was, you know, so much of my job as a development executive was applying for funding, grants, filling in the forms, was understanding what happens after that really informs the way you apply for this money. So, you know, understanding the pathways to production, understanding the production party's
Speaker: who was involved, all of that stuff. It was, yeah, so it was more like nuts and bolts rather than anything particularly creative because it was all, like I always feel like development is you find the best version of it and then you send it off, right?
Speaker: It's up to the producers once you've given over, it's up it's their problem after that. Yeah, yeah. And just generally, i mean, do you have any advice for writers kind of broadly without giving away, you know, all the secrets? Well, hire me. No, um I don't feel in a position to give like established writers advice. I feel like I do work with emerging writers all the time and they are constantly...
Speaker: They're constantly wanting to know how I got my start. And I keep saying, you know, the way that I got to where I am doesn't exist anymore. And I think that's true for so many careers. Like you can't look at somebody else's path and go, okay, well, I'll do this, this and this. The market is so different now from when I started.
Speaker: But having said that, what I do say to them is, and I will, I would die on this hill. I know it's a little bit controversial, but for an emerging writer, if you are just, you know, just starting out and just writing your first stuff and just still learning, I would highly recommend entering competitions. I know that Script Notes, the podcast, hates them, right? They preach, do not enter competitions, waste of time, blah, blah, blah. But as a development executive, I would get emails all the time from people saying, can you read my script? Can you read my script? Can you read my script? And if that script had passed even one bar, like it got placed in this competition, or then I'd be able to go, okay, well, somebody else has said this is good. So then I feel comfortable spending my time reading it. So it rises to the top of the pile thing. Exactly. Because when I would, you know, maybe there would be a week where I wasn't quite as busy and I would go, okay, well, I will take a chance and read just a random script that got sent to my inbox and then just spend the rest of the week, like shaking my head, just going, oh my God, like,
Speaker: Not only was it not even written in final draft, it's not even formatted as a screenplay. Like I really admire people who just get in there and do it like amazing, good for you. But there is really something to be said for that adage of like you have to practice for 10,000 hours before you can master a skill I'm not saying you have to spend 10,000 hours on screenwriting but you have to you have to put some effort into understanding what's come before understanding the form understanding the formatting do you know what I mean like yeah so that's my advice to emerging writers to all writers it's just a solidarity with you I don't have any advice but I'm in the trenches there with you yeah
Speaker: And that brings us to our last segment, which is the pay it forward segment. So I'm going to, you'll be asked a question from a previous guest. And if you can come up with a question for our next guest. So our previous guest was Renee Broome screenwriter and script editor. Renee said, well, if you could be any fictional TV show or movie character, who would you be and why?
Speaker: wow. yeah I mean, ah i mean I mean, the answer that comes to my from my heart is Buffy, but also she's pretty miserable, right?
Speaker: But but little little Gemma wanted to be Buffy so badly. You wanted to slay some vampires. I was so in love with Angel. like You know, that's I'm seeing where this genre fandom comes from.
Speaker: Yeah, I have to say Buffy. Okay. I think she had a happy ending, right? Kind
Speaker: of. Well, on that note, that was all my questions. So we'll leave it there. But thank you so much for joining me in the podcast today and talking to me all about your career.
Speaker: No worries. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.
Speaker: That was screenwriter and script editor Gemma Crofts and a big thanks to her for joining me on the podcast as well as to our sponsor, AFTRS, the Australian Film, Television and Radio School.
Speaker: This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo design by Shara Parsons and music by Seb SebOTage Gavrilovich If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review.
Speaker: See you in a fortnight.
