Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca and I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands. Always was, always will be.
Speaker: Today's episode features Logie Award-winning writer-director Nicholas Verso. In 2023, Nicholas won the Logie for Crazy Fun Park, a horror comedy for the ABC and his first original series as creator, while his latest series, the adaptation Invisible Boys, premiered at number one on Stan and was nominated for a Peabody.
Speaker: His other television work includes the BAFTA and Emmy award-winning Nowhere Boys, The Unlisted, Itch, In Our Blood and Swift Street. He also won Australian Directors Guild Awards for his work on First Nations series Grace Beside Me as well as Crazy Fun Park. His debut feature, Boys in the Trees, made its world premiere at the Venice International Film Festival in 2016 and he is currently in development on his next feature.
Speaker: Throughout the podcast, Nicholas talks about his pathway into the industry, being able to explore heavier themes through teen genre stories like Crazy Fun Park and Boys in the Trees, optioning and adapting Invisible Boys for the screen and getting feedback from fans all over the world. why it's important to him to create stories for young adult audiences in Australia, his thoughts on how to then not just reach but connect to those audiences, and much more.
Speaker: Before we get to the chat, remember if you liked this episode to rate and give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts, follow us on Instagram through @ Breaking Screen Podcast or subscribe to our newsletter through breakingscreenpodcast.com. Without further ado, here's writer-director Nicholas Verso.
Speaker: So we always start the podcast the same way, same question. ah let's talk about inciting incidents, which you would be familiar with as a screenwriting term. um What was the inciting incident of your career? Oh, interesting. So do you mean in terms of why I do it or how I do it?
Speaker: It could be, it's however you want to interpret it. It could be the thing when you were a kid, it could be your, you know, first kind of big credit or like the thing that got your career like moving at the beginning. It can be however you see an inciting incident for your career.
Speaker: Yeah, so I guess as a kid, I was always so drawn to cinema and film and TV, both of it. you know like It was all the same to me. And I think growing up in the 90s, I think it all was equal because it was all just, it was the days of the monoculture where there weren't that many options. So you just absorbed whatever was on TV and whatever was at your local video store.
Speaker: So to me, there really was no difference between an episode of The Simpsons or an Agatha Christie movie from the 1970s or the latest, you know, Reality Bites or Clueless or Hitchcock, you know. So I just watched it all and loved it all. And I loved the escapism that it gave you And at the time, when I was young, I also wanted to be an actor. And so I did a lot of theatre.
Speaker: And I think when i was about 10 11, someone pointed out that I would, because I wasn't a great actor, I think she pointed out that I would make better a better director. And she was right. And so I gravitated to that and realised that was my calling and slowly...
Speaker: evolved into that I guess through you know making short films so like in in year 10 English I convinced the English teacher to let me make a short film of Lord of the Flies rather than write an essay and and then went to VCA where I got to study both film and theatre and and I did start out in theatre and loving theatre and I still do I love it very much but was something special about film and tv And um something else that ah I'm wanting to like introduce as a regular question on this podcast, because I think it's interesting what people would come up with. But what do you feel was a pivotal film or television series? I know you said that like a lot of them were the same to you, but was there was there one that was very pivotal to you as a film or a television series growing up?
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. It was Twin Peaks. So i was I was too young to watch it when it was first broadcast, but there were these big box sets at the video store that you could rent out. And so I slowly did. And it was funny because My local video store had the first half, but not the back half. And then I found another one that did. and And I got really obsessive about it. And there was a whole little group of us who were all probably too young to be watching it, who all became quite addicted to it as a series. And and and the works of David Lynch in general, you know, I discovered at that time. And there was just something about what it was...
Speaker: communicating and the tone in which it did it was in such a, it had this beautiful mystery and ambiguity to it while, you know, still giving a really some straightforward narrative elements, but combining that with something really otherworldly that just really spoke to me and and blew my mind as a, as a teenager.
Speaker: ah And there was something you said before. um i was going to ask this question a bit later, but um when you said that you wanted to be initially really loved acting. And so i was just wondering, like, do you then feel like as a director, you're more of like, ah you really enjoy working with actors because of that background? Or do you feel like you're more technical? Like what kind of director do you think you are?
Speaker: Huh. I think I'm both in a way, you know, I'm pretty specific about both, you know, with the actors. I love working with actors. I love what they bring to it, especially You know, like working with a great actor, when you watch them elevate the dialogue and and transform it into something really truthful and meaningful, that especially when it's something you've written and they make it sound so much better than you thought it would be. And and they find nuance and meaning within it and they're bringing themselves to it. So even though i write from my own experiences, it's it's so beautiful watching what an actor can do when they bring their own emotions and their own life experience to dialogue.
Speaker: So, yeah, so I very much – do you like to work closely with the actors, but also some actors like to be on their own. You know, they have their own process. So some of them, you are guiding them, but then they'll go off and they've got their own idea on what they want to do with the scene. So in a way you don't want to get too involved with them because that might throw them So I love that. But then I do love the technical side too. Like I'm pretty specific about shot composition and and how I want a scene covered visually.
Speaker: And normally when I'm picturing a scene, like I picture the whole thing. And normally when I'm in production, my way of winding down at the end of the day is to actually watch the whole movie or the show in my head before I go to sleep just to sort of keep it going and and you know I'm still open to surprises and and new better ideas that might come up on the day but I'm pretty clear with how I want it to look and then if someone wants to suggest something better they're more than welcome to yeah.
Speaker: Do you um do you have a bit of a photographic memory if you can watch the whole thing at the end of the day? Well it's funny it's it's a process I guess I have both in writing and and directing as well where if I forget it, then it probably might not be that important.
Speaker: You know what I mean? Like in a way it becomes a really defining thing. Like sometimes in the early stages when I'm first writing a a film or a TV show, I will, I'll handwrite and I'll just write down like the the dot points of what I think the story is. And it's interesting. Sometimes I will forget like a key thing that I put in an early version and then I'm like, well, maybe that wasn't actually needed, you know? um And then as you go along,
Speaker: Yeah, you sort of start to see what the really important beats are and things that might have seemed important at one point aren't later on. So, and photographically, yeah, it's funny. Like I actually find sometimes I have to remind myself to look at the script again when I'm shooting something. Because sometimes I'll be directing a scene without looking at the script because I will just remember how it should look and how it should feel.
Speaker: And then I'll have to remember, oh, no, no, no, there's a really crucial little beat here buried in the big print that I've got to make sure I get a a shot of. Or, ah yeah, so so it is. I don't know if I've got a photographic memory, but I certainly remember the images that count. Yeah, yeah, definitely. When I was researching for this chat, there's a.
Speaker: like a YouTube short ah from Crazy Fun Park and you can tell that one of the shots is like in, it looks like a production office or something. There's whiteboards and stuff in the background and it's been filmed on a phone and then they show what it looked like in the show and it's almost like exactly the same um from this kind of like test shot that you've obviously created in a production office to like the angles and things that you went with in the show, which was like, it it kind of is just reinforcing what you were saying that you see it so clearly how you want it to look in a composition and things like that.
Speaker: Yeah. And for me, i' I'm always ready to throw it away if something better comes along, you know, but I feel like it gives the crew and the cast some really good really clear goalposts to head towards at any minute. And and I try to give out that information as early as possible so that on the day everyone knows in advance and can prepare. Because I find if you throw something at someone at the last minute, you might not always be able to get it because they just might not be prepared and ready.
Speaker: And I thought it was also interesting, like looking at your IMDb, um it said how you used to make EPK, which for anyone listening, if they're not sure, they're ah electronic press kits. So as a you know screen journalist have watched a lot of EPK over the years, or they also contribute to production notes, which is something that people supply journalists as part of their like research. um And so you made these EPK kits up until your first feature, Boys in the Trees. Did that help at all kind of like being on set, getting an insight into production?
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. It was the greatest film school you could have. Like, it's funny, film school's great, but it's also doesn't necessarily prepare you for the industry in any way, like because it's treating everyone like a director. And yeah,
Speaker: Yeah, and you don't necessarily learn different approaches and techniques, whereas doing the EPK route and then also doing some second unit with that allowed me to observe almost every director in Australia. So I got to, well, at least all the ones that got to shoot in Melbourne. So, you know, I got to see Emma Freeman, Daina Reid, Kevin Carlin, Pino Amenta, you know, all these brilliant directors and their different approaches to how they would approach a scene, how they would deal with actors, how they would deal with crew.
Speaker: And it was interesting. And it sort of, and and so I just always had my eyes open and my ears open and was watching and listening. And not all of their approaches worked for me. There are certain things where i went, oh yeah, I could see that working for me or no, no, I don't think I would work that way because everyone's got their own way. It's it's very bespoke. Everyone's got to do things in the way that suits them.
Speaker: But just having such a range of approaches was so fantastic and so inspiring and really helped me get production ready because quite often the weird thing is quite often the director on set is the person who's been on the set the least like crew are always there like they are they are doing one production to another one after the other whereas directors can have sometimes gaps in the schedule between things or in their in their suite or in their in development so just having a chance to observe all these different directors meant that by the time I got to go and set as a director I was ready and and really knew how tv sets particularly operated
Speaker: Mm. And, um, so two of the projects that I mentioned so far, so one's crazy fun park, the other is boys in the trees and they are both in this kind of fantasy horror, like they are different tonally. um but both of them kind of like touch on a bit of those genres. And I was wondering like, yeah, what do you like about writing within creating stories within those kinds of genres? Yeah.
Speaker: I guess it comes back to why I got into this to start with was, you know, watching film and TV and the escapism that it brought you, i always found incredibly exciting. And I guess for me, it also is a great way to deal with heightened emotions.
Speaker: So both of those projects are, you know, they're coming from a place of grief and loss. And, you know, as an audience member, while you can see incredible films about grief and loss and they can be beautiful and insightful and very moving, you don't always rush to them. you know They can be a lot to take in if it's just solely dealing with that. It can be quite an intense experience. So for me, the genre elements provide some escapism and some relief and some magic within that and just allow you to soften the edges a bit. And for me, that just makes it
Speaker: You know, it's that spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down a little bit. It just makes it that bit more palatable. And I guess that's just how I felt those stories made the most sense. You know, like I think in the case of Crazy Fun Park,
Speaker: a boy just dealing with like the death of his friend would have been quite a maudlin story. Like it would have been quite dark. And I don't know if I would have wanted to sit in that for ah for extended periods. Whereas if you put it in an abandoned fairground and you've got all these colours and characters and life and movement and joy, well, then that is a bit more exciting to me. And that is a place I'll happily sit in for weeks on end.
Speaker: Yeah, so I think that that's why I really love the genre elements. And and you see the excitement, like take a show like Stranger to Things, you know, and especially when it first came out just how excited everyone was to watch that and how we all binged it and gravitated to it. There was something so relieving about it because let's face it, the world's pretty tough for a lot of people right now, for most of us, in fact. So I think sometimes you just want a bit of relief and a bit of escapism.
Speaker: Yeah, totally. And, you know, those are examples of things that that you've written and and created. How do you balance then kind of working on your own projects? And, you know, you worked on a number of people's projects that aren't your own, you know, Swift Street, In Our Blood, Itch, things like that.
Speaker: Oh, it's great. Like, I love working on projects that I didn't write and create. Like, I love the balance, you know, so I guess when it's coming from me, it's quite a personal expression and it takes quite a lot of energy, you know, it takes ah a fair bit out of me.
Speaker: So like a show like Swift Street, you know, which was created by Tig Terera and he had such a clear and wonderful vision for that show. And he sees the world in such a different way to me.
Speaker: And in a way, I found so exciting and so inspiring. So it was such a joy working with Tig on that, you know, because i learned a lot. and And I think those shows are where i I do the most learning. And it comes back, I guess, to my EPK thing. You know, I love to be a student. I love to see different approaches to things. and and glean knowledge from that and so whenever I'm working on those shows and with other people like that yeah it's great to take a bit of a back seat for a moment you know and to just observe how they want to tell the story and then when I get into the driver's seat I can add what I do but I'm elevating what the story they want to tell and and that to me is a very lovely experience
Speaker: And so I did want to talk about ah Invisible Boys, which ah anyone who hasn't seen it, it's on Stan. You can watch it now. And so it's based on a book by Holden Shepard. And I was wondering, did you kind of read this book and then like personally option it? Or I know Feisty Dame Productions, you made it with Tania Chambers from Feisty Dame. um Or did you kind of pitch it to Tania and then go from there? Like how did that kind of work?
Speaker: Yeah, so I had read the book because someone had recommended it on Twitter. Richard Watts had given it a really wonderful review on Twitter. And I was actively looking for something I could turn into a TV series to shoot in regional Western Australia.
Speaker: So that it was quite specific. That was a very specific book. signal I was sending out to the universe at that time. And then this book appeared and I was, I just knew, i knew how to adapt it. I knew that I was the right person for it in ah in a curious way because it was so in my wheelhouse. It was really me sticking to my lane. And so i knew, um and I'd worked with tenure on itch. So we had a really strong working relationship and I, I was ready to step up as a producer, but at the same time, I knew my limitations. Like I know, I know I'm not
Speaker: a real 100% 24-7 producer like some people are. Like the people who are killing it in the Australian film industry, they are you know, watching them produce is an art in itself. it's It's quite an astonishing thing to watch. And so I knew I wasn't that.
Speaker: You know, that's not what I am. I am a writer, director yeah first and foremost. So i had I had already approached Holden and his agent. And so that conversation had started because the option was solely in my name. So I think it must have been a combination. I think they knew I was going to work with Tanya and that sweetened the deal. And that reassured them that it wasn't just a writer hoping for the best. You know, that was actually a real...
Speaker: We always had a very clear pathway to market with it. In a way, I wish I had on other things. Like I don't always have such a clear business path for the project. but But in that in that instance, it was just I saw it all. Like I could see exactly creatively how it would look. Like I knew it would be a 10 half hour series for Stan. Like I didn't want to take it anywhere else.
Speaker: And so I knew just how the pieces would fit business wise. And so Tanya and I were in agreement on that. And yeah, teamed up. oh And can i just wondering, when you said that you wanted to find something specifically in Western Australia, was that that there was like an opportunity for filming in Western Australia and you were looking for something that would naturally fit within that?
Speaker: Yeah, I had heard a talk from, I'm pretty sure it was Ian Booth, who was at the Screen West at the time, and he had, they had just introduced or or had reinvigorated, I'm not sure whether it was brand new or whether it had just been re relaunched, but the regional fund that Screen West has, which is a sizable amount of money.
Speaker: It's an incredibly generous fund and incredibly ah seductive for producers. And so I just remember thinking... Oh, that's, and ah I just remember thinking, oh, that that money could be a real game changer for a production. You know, it could really allow productions to get up.
Speaker: And I had worked in Western Australia, so I knew that the state were really actively looking for more long running series because they do so much factual and so many feature films, which is wonderful. But for crew, long running TV is where it's at. You know, it just allows more people to be employed for longer. So I just could see there was an opportunity there. And I think,
Speaker: I also was very aware that so many producers in Australia stay east. you know They like to stick to the east coast. um So I just saw there was an opportunity. and my you know I feel like you're you're more likely to win the gold medal if you run in a race that less people are running in.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. um It's very, um like, clever, strategic thinking. I wish i operated on that level of strategy more often, but I really don't. And that was just, it was very, yeah, very pragmatic.
Speaker: All the stars are aligned, yeah. um And so there are, of course, like benefits to adapting existing IP. You know, people always talk about like built-in audiences and audience recognition. How did you find then the process as a creator working on an adaptation?
Speaker: Yeah, I think, i mean, adaptations are, the big thing right now, especially from a commissioning stance, because I think it just, I think, you know, times are tight and everyone's a little conservative right now. And so having underlying IP just gives everyone a little bit of confidence in a project.
Speaker: So for me, adaptation, the book was great, you know, and it gave us these great bones and these wonderful characters and a great world in Geraldton. But there was also a lot of space in it. There was a lot of space to fill it out and to add more and to go deeper.
Speaker: And so I could see how I could bring my own life experiences into the adaptation and also invite other writers. So, you know, we had a writer's room with Allan Clarke and Declan Greene and Enoch Mailangi. And so they all brought their own observations of the world and their own life experiences in.
Speaker: And yeah, and so I guess for me, there were there was an opportunity to do some things I hadn't seen on screen before, particularly with the Hammer character. I thought i hadn't seen a gay First Nations character as a lead in a TV show before in Australia.
Speaker: So I thought that was a really incredible opportunity for us. And so he he's not First Nations in the book. So, you know, that was kind of us going rogue a little bit. and And it's interesting. I think when you're adapting, you really want to stay faithful to the spirit of the book or the source material. Mm-hmm. And I think we did. And so I think because we've stayed really faithful to the spirit of the book, I think people don't notice how much we changed.
Speaker: Like we actually have changed it quite significantly. You know, the first three episodes, we're pretty faithful to the introductions of the characters. But then what we do to them is quite, quite radical at times and quite drastically different. But we, I guess we stick to the sort of main plot pillars of the book.
Speaker: And so much of it's turning things into action, you know, because I think in books there's so much internal monologue and so much thought and you're really trying to turn that into actual action that the characters can do and affect each other with.
Speaker: So I think, yeah, Adaptation to me is really wonderful. and and And there was something about Invisible Boys. I think the reason it's been such a successful book is there's so much space in it for people. I think everyone imprints upon it.
Speaker: You know, people put their own experiences onto those characters because they are quite, um I don't say this in a bad way, but they're quite thin. You know, like they're actually quite, there's not too much rich detail in there. They're quite archetypal. And as a result, we project onto them, you know, which is what archetypes are for. It's for us to project our beliefs and our life experiences onto. So I think um that's why it works really well for adaptation.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, and people connect with it in that way. Yeah, and, um you know, how do you then feel, so this is Invisible Boys is getting a USA streaming release on Hulu. um How do you feel knowing that this, like, Australian ah queer YA story is going global?
Speaker: Oh, it's so beautiful. Like, we've had the most lovely response to this series. It's actually been way more positive than I expected, to be honest. Like, I wasn't, To be honest, I wasn't quite sure what I was expecting. But, you know, I think I'm just used to as an Australian, getting a healthy mix of positive and negative with everything you do. Like, it's it's unlikely that everything will be universally loved. And that's fine. You know, I go in with my eyes wide open there.
Speaker: So I don't, that doesn't bother me. But this one's been way more positive than I thought. and From all over the world, you know, we we are heavily pirated, unfortunately, on the one hand, financially. But on the other hand, it's been wonderful to see how much audiences want to see it, you know, and so they are sharing it and it is being passed around. And to me, that's exciting because,
Speaker: the last thing you want, I guess, when you release something is apathy or indifference. and And we certainly haven't received that. We've had real affection and engagement, you know, like so much of our social media engagement's in Portuguese, which means that, you know, it's doing really well in Brazil. And and even though we're not released there. Yeah. And so we get, you know, we're getting messages every day from people all around the world. And that's that's a beautiful thing that this, you know, little series that we slaved over in the scorching hot Geraldton sun, you know, who's connected with people all around the world. So that's, it's yeah it's a lovely feeling.
Speaker: yeah Oh, definitely. And um like a lot of your work features queer characters. And I read in this interview that it's, you spoke about how it was something that you were, you know, resistant to kind of creating queer stories or being labeled like in that way or put in a box. And um I'm wondering like what changed, what changed so that you are kind of embracing telling those stories?
Speaker: I think it was just seeing that Not everyone was doing it, to be honest. You know, I think my initial resistance was if you're a queer filmmaker in like the nineties or the noughties, that's all you were.
Speaker: And that's not an insult because those filmmakers are still some of the greatest filmmakers of that time. But, you know, Gregg Araki was a queer filmmaker and, and, and people often wouldn't let him be anything more than that. And I wasn't sure that I wanted to be put in that box.
Speaker: So I think I was resistant to the label, but then I did start seeing a lack of queerness in Australian TV and film. You know, I think we're getting a lot better now. You know, like I think the last few years particularly there's been such a wide range of of characters and representation.
Speaker: But for a moment there were pretty straight, you know, i we were pretty and and there wasn't much there for gay characters, lesbian characters, trans characters, bisexual characters.
Speaker: We weren't necessarily seeing that. And I think that there's also an interesting thing where in life you start to feel a bit of a divide. Like in my teens and 20s, I think it was all the same, you know, like who my friends were and and and what our life experiences were. but you do start to notice it in your late 20s onwards, like the queer life experience does tend to deviate a little bit from the straight life experience. Like the goalposts you have for your life do start to differ somewhat. Not for everyone, but but definitely for me, you know. And so I think I wanted to write stories that spoke to that because I just thought we were starting to
Speaker: you know I felt like the stories we were telling were only really telling one life path. And I just wanted to start to show a few other different life paths and and options of how people live their lives in Australia.
Speaker: Just a quick note that this episode is brought to you by AFTRS, the Australian Film, Television and Radio School. If you're looking to learn alongside experienced industry professionals, build networks and accelerate your career in Australia's screen industry, the Master of Arts Screen Business at AFTRS is now taking applications for their next intake. Offering flexible study options, the course is designed to support ongoing career growth and long-term success. by building your commercial, strategic and leadership skills. In doing so, you can expand your opportunities, not just in producing, but in screen business, creative leadership and entrepreneurship.
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Speaker: And so another thing that I noticed um and looking across a lot of the projects you've worked on is you work a lot in the young adult or kind of that like YA space. And i was just wondering, like, why is telling stories for this audience important to you?
Speaker: Well, I think it also comes down to sort of why I've also been doing a lot of queer stories, and that's because not a lot of other people are, you know. Like, I think Australia used to be so brilliant at that.
Speaker: You actually, you look at things like Muriel's Wedding and Strictly Ballroom and, Technically, they're kind of YA films, you know, i like the the protagonists in those films are like very young.
Speaker: You know, I think, I mean, Muriel's Wedding What is she, 18, 19? You know, like she's she's quite a young woman, you know. um They have that coming of age type element to it, someone finding them, figuring out who they are finding themselves, I suppose, like as well. Yeah, that's it. Like she's fresh out of high school. Like she hasn't entered the workforce yet or gone to university. So, or whatever hurt her she was planning, you know, so I don't know. We used to be really good at it. and And then there were like teen shows like Heartbreak High back in the day and things like that. We used to be just incredible at it. And at a certain point we kind of stopped.
Speaker: And it was kind of around 2010. I noticed that we were stopping that somewhat. You know, we started to be a little more adult in ah in our filmmaking, which is great, and we need to do that too. But I just felt like ah American culture was starting to dominate that space a little too much for Australian audiences and – And I remember coming through as an Australian teenager, feeling like my coming of age was somehow lesser than because I was so used to seeing the American rites of passage up on the screen and not my own.
Speaker: And you start to go, well, we didn't have a prom and we weren't driving to school and we weren't doing all these things, at you know, summer camp and all these things you see in American films and TV shows. It created like a dissonance for me. And I'm like, we've got to learn to celebrate our culture and our rites of passage because being a teenager in Australia is freaking great.
Speaker: You know, like we have a pretty wonderful experience and we should be celebrating that. And so I guess that's what it came down to for me was I wanted to celebrate that so that we could have the same pride in our culture and celebrate our culture in the way that America is very happy to do.
Speaker: But we seem very reticent to do And to me, it's also just future facing. Like, I feel like you need to keep audiences engaged. I feel like we focus very heavily on an older audience, which is great.
Speaker: But unless we're engaging with a younger audience, then there is no future for us. So i think it's really important to do that. I think they're a really engaged audience. Like the social media engagement I get on my stuff is so wonderful.
Speaker: And you're not getting that on some of these primetime shows that probably have 10 times the audience, but they're not getting that enthusiasm. They're being watched a little more passively, whereas younger audiences are so excited and inspired. And it comes back to like how I was when I first saw Twin Peaks. Like we were obsessed with it. We would talk about it constantly at school and it it was such a driving part of our identity. And I think that time is so wonderful and magical and so universal. So I guess – there's something about it that I just find really exciting and I want to be a part of it.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It makes me, as you were talking, uh, you know, so many, ah people, millennials, I'm going to say, um, looking for Alibrandi it was like such an important film to them growing up. And I think it's like what you were saying, like, it was like, oh, you saw yourself on screen in a way that you didn't with, um, with other things. So yeah. um And I think there's a thing, specific thing for millennials as well. I think I was just reading this the other day and I think it's someone was pointing out that the reason millennials can get so nostalgic is because they saw a glimpse of life before the world changed.
Speaker: You know, there was something that the rites of passage that Gen X and millennials had. We got to see it all before social media and before technology sort of shifted things and late stage capitalism. So I think we saw a slightly more innocent world and how hopeful that could be. and i I don't know if that innocence is still there for us. And I think we miss it. So I think there's a desire to sort of return to a simpler time.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Hence that nostalgia. Yeah. the Something that you were saying before about young audiences being really engaged. um It is interesting because like, yes, young people are so engaged, especially on social media, but there does seem to be like this disconnect in how to reach young people and build those viewing habits.
Speaker: And so, for example, you probably know this news, but ah in August this year, so the BBC hired a 26-year-old entrepreneur as a head of strategy to help the BBC connect with Gen Z and younger audiences. So like this is obviously an issue that's not just in Australia. And I saw that you wrote a letter, like a submission as well about this topic and Yeah, what do you think are the main challenges then in connecting young people to Australian shows and, like, some of the ways that this could be helped to build those viewing habits?
Speaker: Yeah, no, it's a bit of a scenario I'm really interested in and I think we're all trying to work it out. So I don't claim to have any answers, but I've just got – things that I think we should think about or discuss at least. yeah and And I actually love what the BBC are doing. I think they're being so forward thinking. Like I think that appointment's really exciting. I think the fact that they're commissioning directly to YouTube rather than trying to force that audience to go to their platform, I think is also really clever because I think they've identified that the younger viewers just trying to drive them to a platform that they don't want to be on is it a waste of energy, whereas meeting them where they are is a really smart move.
Speaker: And so i think, to be honest, I think we've got to start doing that. I think, you know, certain platforms I think have been clinging to the hope that people would go and watch the show on that platform and then they don't. and like I experienced that first time with Crazy Fun Park, you know, like It was on ABC iview. ABC iview is great. You know, it's a really great platform if you're of a certain age, but the reality is I'm seeing on Twitter right now, so many people are watching the show, but they're watching it on YouTube.
Speaker: That's where they want to watch it. And it's on Netflix in Australia as well. So you could actually watch it there and you'd think Netflix would be, you know, the cool platform. Everyone would be happy to watch it there, but they're still just preferring to watch it on YouTube.
Speaker: So that's, that's really interesting. And that's really telling. I think we've got to make sure that watching Australian culture and absorbing Australian culture isn't something you even have to think about.
Speaker: It should be a habit. I'm really big on habit formation. And I think the issue that I see facing our industry right now is almost every project starting from stop.
Speaker: Like they almost have to build up an audience and build up from zero. And I think that's just such a waste of energy. Whereas when you can kind of build on top of each other, then that's where you can create some real momentum and real movements. And that's where real filmmaking waves go.
Speaker: can happen And we had one in the 90s. You can see that there were these films that felt like part of a movement, like Muriel's Wedding with Priscilla and The Castle. and And that went on for years and years. These films sort of built upon one another and the audience for one went to the next one and – That was really a successful thing. And I think it's harder because we don't live in a monoculture now and everyone's attention spans are splintered. But I think there are still things we can do. Like there should be, no matter what age you are, whether you're four years old or 104 years old, there should be something for you on Australian TV.
Speaker: on Australian screens. And there aren't right now. There are massive commissioning blind spots. You know, we we do really well for preschool. You know, we've got Bluey and we've got really good shows on ABC under eight, nine, 10 maybe.
Speaker: But what are the shows for people between the ages of 10 and 21? There just simply aren't any. Like no one is touching that. And that's, to me, that's a crime. You know, like, like, I actually think that's a real crime considering we have government funded subsidized platforms. The fact that they are not touching that I think is really bad because it's sort of like, um it just is really strange logic to me what you think that Australian kids will watch things up until the age of 10, then they'll just go to American content and you'll pick them up again at some point in their late twenties. Like, I just think that logic is incredibly flawed. And I think, because the the fact of the matter is, I think what we're seeing now is that they don't come back, you know, like people younger than millennials, I don't think are really engaging with Australian content because they haven't been aimed at them. Or if they are,
Speaker: They've been aimed at them because they've been brought in early. And I think like take the Racka Racka films, you know, Talk to Me, Bring her Back. Those films are case in point, you know, because those filmmakers were engaging with those audience via YouTube and they were building a following. So then when they transitioned to feature films, that audience went with them and they went to the cinemas to see those films and they are engaging.
Speaker: But It's harder, I think, to break through from nothing and hit that 20-something audience or even the early 30 audience. And i think we've only got ourselves to blame there. So I think we've got to make sure that there's always something on our screens.
Speaker: And going to them where they live, and and and that's not to say we all we do is fund vertical TikTok content. You know, that's not a solution. Like, that's just as bad. But I still think we can, if we get them in the habit of engaging with Australian content on Australian screens, and and we maybe have to use different KPIs for a while, because I think the other thing I'm seeing is people are holding up old methods of gauging a content's worth, or the fact that we're using the word content to describe stories and and ah our films and TVs, you know, I have issues with anyway, but the fact that we're still using these old metrics of, you know, viewing numbers, you know, we're not in the Sunday 8.30 time slot anymore. Like numbers and how people engage with stories are so different now. And so, and it's a conversation I like have with Screen Australia. I mean, luckily they're incredibly open to the conversation.
Speaker: i think they just need to take action on it now. But like, You know, like we get shows like Heartbreak High, I'm sure get this. And and I know Leviticus is getting it and and I'm getting it with Invisible Boys and Crazy Fun Park. We get all these fan edits on TikTok. There's no metric for that. There's no sort of way of gauging that success at a funding body level or a commissioner level right now.
Speaker: And so i'm I'm sharing them with everyone going, this is what we're doing. This shows that there is an audience and that they care and that they're passionate. And, um and it might not get the rating numbers that a cozy crime will get about, you know, someone going back to their country town to solve a murder that's inexplicably connected to something that happened in their teen years. But, but, you know, but it will still be an engagement that shows a passion for a certain type of Australian storytelling. And that's just as valid.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. I think that's really interesting because ah i I have heard um like anecdotally how in a world where we are so time poor, for someone to take the time and write a message on a clip on social media or whatever saying, I loved this, I watched this, this is my favorite, but whatever it might be, like that actual engagement is worth like is worth more than just a passive view with no engagement, if that makes sense. Like to like something is one step, to comment is the next above that. Absolutely. And that interactivity, like I remember when The Babadook came out in Australia and the box office numbers weren't great for it because it was sort of released under duress. You know, it was a very limited release theatrically that film got, but it, you know, did gangbusters overseas. But even still, like,
Speaker: The Babadook is like a household name, you know, like, you know, it's just entered the lexicon and, you know, people dress up as that character for Halloween. So, okay, so it's box office numbers aren't great, but then it's got all these other things that are just, you know, as a filmmaker, you could spend your whole life wanting to achieve the things that that film got. You know what I mean? And so, you know, it changed culture. And ah to me, it's probably the most influential Australian film of the last 10, 15 years.
Speaker: Well, now it's 15 years. yeah So, you know, but that's that's an incredible achievement. And so I think we've got to start pivoting in terms of how we gauge success and lean into the the future markers of success. And I think that's what the BBC are doing with that appointment. They're working out ways to, because I remember people talking about the Babadook as a failure, like,
Speaker: in the yeah year of its release, you know, even though it really was not. Like, it was it's not a failure on any level. Like, it's it's a creative triumph, that film. and And it has paved the way for Talk to Me and Bring Her Back and Leviticus and all these other films. And and it reinvigorated international interest in Australian cinema when it was starting to lag. Yeah, but I guess we can sometimes...
Speaker: paint ourselves into corners and we can sometimes be so critical of our own achievements. So I think we've got to really become our own cheerleaders again and look for future opportunities.
Speaker: Definitely. um And then I'm just wondering like a broad advice question. Do you have any advice for any writers or directors who are listening? Well, I think everyone's path is so different. So I always find it really hard to give career advice because I think everything's valid, you know, like whatever works for you works for you, you know? So there are certain paths I could have taken that just didn't work for me. It just wasn't my makeup. It wasn't my personality.
Speaker: The advice I would give, I guess, is be your own cheerleader. Once again, you know, like know your worth, Find that distinctive thing that you can offer the industry that maybe nobody else can and really lean into that.
Speaker: Whatever that thing is, real yeah. and And it might leave you on the bench for a little while and that's okay, but just keep keepe at it and improve upon it because...
Speaker: you know My path has been a little circuitous. It hasn't always been a straight line, but I think I've really stuck to my lane and I've really stuck to what I do. And I think that's helped me build up a bit of a reputation and a brand that's put me in good state now.
Speaker: And now I'm sort of growing that and expanding that outwards of what that could mean. But so I would lean into that. I would always be learning, you know, like there's never a moment when you know it all.
Speaker: There's always another mountain to climb. So always be looking for the next thing. And try to have a ah slate as well, I would recommend, if you can. Don't just be pushing the one project because things are fickle and you always want to be able to be flexible to whatever the industry is doing at any particular moment and which way the wind's blowing.
Speaker: And, you know, I've got things on my slate that are just not the ones for now. They're projects I adore. They're probably my favourite projects, but they're not the moment for now. Now is not their time. And so I can just let them sit and hopefully their day will come.
Speaker: And um there's a project I'm working on right now that's getting a lot of love that I first started writing when I was 18, you know, but I just wasn't good enough then to write it properly. And that, and then wasn't the moment. Whereas now, ah you know, with the body of work I have and with where TV's at and where,
Speaker: just storytelling is that I can now go back to that one and tell it properly. And, and it's getting the love that I would have loved it to get many years ago.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, um, that actually segues very nicely into the next, ah question i was going to ask, but it's, uh, our pay it forward segment. Uh, this is the final segment. This is where, um, you're asked a question from a previous guest and you come up with a question for the next guest. And because i have seen the question from our previous guest, that's why I said the segue. um so previous guest was Elise McCredie, amazing. Who is a screenwriter, showrunner, creator, um ah recently most recently with the Airport Chaplain on SBS. And Elise's question. Which is a brilliant show. Everyone should watch it. It's really great. yeah Yes.
Speaker: Go check it out. um So Elise's question was, I'm curious about. What I said before about those two things, well by two things I mean the projects that you want to make as a writer and the projects that are brought to you. And the odds of the second one getting up are so much higher in my experience than the first ones. And I feel like a lot of the hits internationally are the first ones.
Speaker: But I feel like in Australia, for whatever reason, we resist the those writer driven ideas. And so the ideas come from either IP or from a producer's idea, but there's less kind of interest in what what is the crazy original story that no one but you could tell?
Speaker: So i guess my question is, what is the story that you want to tell? But so the second stage of that is How do we kind of create an industry here where those writer-led stories can come up to the surface more and be loved and supported and developed?
Speaker: Okay, well, yeah, that I was just talking about it. I won't i won't say its name yet, but um that one I was just talking about that I first took a real, I crashed into the wall on when I was 18 when I first gave my first go at it. But it's now turning into something really special and really magical. And and the days that I have allocated to writing that are my favorite days. Like I can't wait to get to my desk to work on it. And I'm working with the most wonderful producer and she's just unlocked me.
Speaker: You know, I like the process working with her has been so wonderful. it's It's an international producer, unfortunately, so I can't praise an Australian producer at this moment for that one. But um but I came for many other things, but not for this one. but um But that's just been so, that is a full heart project.
Speaker: So I am so excited about developing that and look forward to that one, seeing the light of day. And then the next part of that question was how do we get people to trust writers more rather than producer-driven shows?
Speaker: boom It's a really interesting question because it's, and I know exactly what she means and I'm seeing it, especially right now, we are very producer-driven and I think mainly because there hasn't been that many commissions. So producers have very tight slates of projects that they've been developing internally. and And of course, because they've been raising these children for a while, they are their favorite children and they love them and adore them very much.
Speaker: So it can be hard as a writer when you're coming in going, Hey, do you want to raise this kid with me too? Cause they're like, no, my hands are full. But that said, but that said I think there are some really great producers out there who are really collaborative and who know, who aren't shutting out the creators. You know, like I've got a collaboration that's happening at the moment where someone brought me a book.
Speaker: And they really wanted me to give my take on it. And I kept waiting for them to blink. You know, I kept sort of pushing what I wanted to do with it. Like I went quite hardcore and going, well, I want to do this and this. And I thought I'd freak them out or scare them off. And and that hasn't happened at all.
Speaker: And they've also been very generous and just very open about their process and and inviting me in with how it goes out to market and how how we approach the buyers.
Speaker: And so that's wonderful. So I think it's finding the producers who are creator friendly, you know, and who are allies. And, and I think that word gets around. i mean, we all speak to each other. And so some producers develop a reputation for being creator friendly while some don't, you know, so I think the the ones who are really open to that process and,
Speaker: who understand that we all do different things and they're all very complimentary and that there's strength in solidarity. I think they're the people who would just rise to the top because they're the producers that all the creators are going to want to work with.
Speaker: And so, and hopefully the commissioners start to invite us in more. Cause I think that's the other thing. I think right now, a lot of the commissioners have only really wanted to build relationships with producers.
Speaker: And so I think, Hopefully, and and I can see them now, there are a group of people in the commissioning space right now who are actually excited by the creators too and they want to get to know them.
Speaker: And so I think the more we see those people rising up and um staking their claim, then we'll see a bit of a change in that culture. So that's exciting. Amazing. um Well, that was all my questions, so we'll leave it there. But thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Speaker: oh thank you for having me. That was writer-director Nicholas Verso and a big thanks to him for joining me on the podcast as well as to our sponsor, AFTRS, the Australian Film, Television and Radio School.
Speaker: This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo design by Shara Parsons and music by Seb SebOTage Gavrilovich If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review.
Speaker: See you in a fortnight.
