Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Nostalgia for nuclear
73 Plays1 year ago
Alina, Anthony, Mike, and Karthik discuss the passage of the ADVANCE act, which sets out to create a new regulatory regime for nuclear power in America. Then, the discussion turns to nostalgia as a commercial force, and why exactly companies are selling bizarre flavor mashups of beloved products.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello
Introduction and Hosts
00:00:11
Speaker
and welcome to Innovation Matters. It's the podcast about sustainable innovation brought to you by Lux Research. I'm your host, Anthony Skiavo, and I'm joined here by my co-hosts, Alina Strugud, Karthik Subramanian, and Mike Holman. How are we doing today, people? Karthik, you're ah back on your, your Jersey. What is this? This is the, it's India, right? Right. Yes. This is the India Jersey. Yeah. And you have the, uh, the tricolor sleeves. I did as did a really cool job. This is actually the limited edition Jersey from 2023. So they only made 2023 pieces and I got one of them. Wow. This is drip dog.
Cricket Excitement
00:00:50
Speaker
This is rare gear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So semi-finals. So, uh, you know, quite excited, quite excited.
00:00:59
Speaker
And we're going to get a a live report potentially on the on the final. Is that is that correct and in a couple episodes here? Yeah, I won't be there for the next episode, I believe. But yeah, I'll definitely talk about the final, if India do win. Otherwise, they're not going to talk about it. and I think you should bring your microphone. Now that I'm realizing you're going to be at the the finals, you know you should be you should be equipped, you should be doing on the ground or reporting. I think that would really elevate this podcast. Yeah, I have to take it up with the airlines and their baggage allowance, you know.
00:01:33
Speaker
the Premier Sustainable Innovation and Cricket World Cup podcast. Yeah, this was not what I anticipated as ah far as you know content when I was mapping out this podcast in my mind or whatever. But we have ah two things we wanted to to talk about today, and they're related, although maybe a little bit tenuously. They're relating for me anyway. We'll we'll relate them, Gash, darn it. Yeah, we will relate. Come hell or high water.
The ADVANCE Act: Overview
00:02:02
Speaker
But we're recording this on June And just recently, the United States Congress has done something extremely unexpected, which is actually pass a law. I know I certainly didn't have that in my bingo card.
00:02:17
Speaker
And what's even crazier is that it's it might actually be good, a good law, a good bipartisan law in America relating to industrial policy. It's crazy, right? So, Karthik, I know you actually did the dirty work here, read the law, and Mike, I know you looked into this as well. so What are we talking about? This is the ADVANCE Act, right? So yeah, this is called as the ADVANCE Act, where ADVANCE stands for accelerating deployment of versatile advanced nuclear for clean energy. ah This bill was passed a couple of days ago, if I'm not mistaken, and it was passed with an overwhelming majority, actually, 88 votes for and to against.
00:03:00
Speaker
And the bill basically goes over what are the measures that the regulators can take to ease deployments. Now, one of the biggest challenges when it comes to deploying advanced reactors is related to the licensing bottleneck and so especially related to the regulator fees involved when it comes to licensing. And so what they have done in the bill and the bill is quite extensive in describing what qualifies as the amount that can be charged by the regulator, which is the National ah Nuclear Regulatory committee Committee. So the NRC um in the United States to.
00:03:37
Speaker
ah charge developers who want to apply for pre licensing as well as the actual licensing application um so when we did our analysis on small modular reactors um and their economic prowess we noticed that the regulator fee can you know reduce the the economic impact by as much as 50%. The regulator fee plays a big role. yeah so If you're able to reduce the costs, then you can actually bring down the cost of nuclear so much. and That's one of the things that came up. and Before I let Mike also add his point, ah the second point was, and this was something that was unexpected for me, was regulations on nuclear fusion.
Nuclear Policy Shifts
00:04:17
Speaker
ah Now people would ask why do we even talk about regulations for nuclear fusion at this point because fusion is you know, so far away from commercializing but the US Senate has decided to completely split the regulatory processes for fission and fusion so fusion will be considered as a completely different technology and And for the next one year, I believe they're going to be and discussing with fusion developers as well as um you know um and the the US Department of Energy and regulators to come up with a streamlined process ah for ah fusion licensing. Yeah, I mean, I think to me, i i did unlike Karthik, I didn't actually read the whole law, but I read a few summaries of it. so um But I think the bigger picture part of us here is this is is this an attempt to make the US policy significantly more friendly to nuclear energy.
00:05:08
Speaker
right? And there's some specific things around licensing fees and all, but it's also there's also the big picture ah revision of the whole mission of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which is set to you know basically mandate it now not to be purely focused on safety, but also kind of ensuring the the the actual health of the nuclear industry as well and and the beneficial ah you know use of nuclear nuclear power and nuclear energy. So it's it's sort of a ah ah aiming to to push through a shift in the kind of culture and philosophy of of how the NRC approaches ah nuclear energy as well. So with that in mind, umm I'm curious because, you know, the NRC was created in I think 1978. You had the Atomic Energy Power Act in I want to say 54, and then you had the
00:06:03
Speaker
I can't remember the name of the act, but the act that created the NRC in the late 70s. Karthik, the fees, why is it that they were charging these fees? it's my I guess my understanding, and and I'm not sure if this was right, is the NRC was not funded by the government, so they had to charge the fees to kind of sustain themselves, or there was some weird thing with the funding. But why was that? or Or was it purely just to kind of slow down the process and put barriers in place? Because as you said, Mike, I think the NRC was created at a time when the goal was really to put barriers right in place for the nuclear energy industry. So Karthik, why were those fees there? And and yeah, what what can you sort of say about that?
00:06:48
Speaker
So ah my understanding of why the NRC collects fees is because their annual budget has to come from fees collected from those who are in the nuclear industry. So I think approximately 90% of their annual budget has to come from revenue generated by providing their services to companies in the nuclear energy industry, whether it's two for pre-licensing, whether it's for licensing, et cetera. I think that's one of the main reasons why they collect the fees. Now, as to why it is very high, I think, as you mentioned, ah why this bill is different, right? It's because of that safety aspect of it. And I think the NRC has always put safety first, and and rightly so, because nuclear has always been that hot topic. um So I guess, like, one thing I hear from developers when they talk about licensing is that, you know, you go with an application and they reject it and they say, you know, we want more information on how this works again.
00:07:40
Speaker
and then you gotta go back again. So I think a lot of this back and forth leads to the high costs because there's no you know standardized way of saying, okay, this now fits everything. And that again comes down to the fact that even if you have nuclear technologies that are part of the same family, so let's say you have a pressurized water reactor, developers develop different variants of the same reactor. So because there is this lack of design standardization, you have to you know go to the NRC every single time you propose a new design. And not to mention, Generally speaking, whenever there is a new safety measure introduced, you always end up incorporating that to your new design, even if your design is, let's say, you know four years older. So you have to do the licensing process again. So those are some of the factors that I think have contributed to these, you know, regulated fees being so high. So is it the case that we can get to a point where we have a more proscriptive version of the regulation? That is to say,
00:08:38
Speaker
If your nuclear design meets these qualifications and you can prove that it is safe in these various ways, then you can go forward with a minimal amount or maybe no like direct sort of interaction with the the NRC there, like how close can we get to that? Because that's how things are done for like, for example, tax credits for hydrogen, right? You demonstrate that you meet a certain set of standards, and then you you move forward on that basis. So like, are we going to move in that direction? and And how close? Because I imagine for nuclear, we're probably never going to get all the way to like, you know, that sort of low touch approach. Yeah, so ah honestly speaking, I'm not very sure.
00:09:23
Speaker
how we are going to get to that stage. But one thing I do know is that, and and I'm going to use NuScale as an example here because NuScale was one of the only you know advanced reactor designs, if you will, that got a licensing approval from the NRC. And so one of the things that they wanted to look at was not just you know deploying their reactor, but licensing their design to other nuclear reactor developers. And I think a lot of these reactor developers are going to take that approach. to accelerate deployments of their design. So ah and with NuScale, for example, you know any any person can just license NuScale's designs and go to NRC and say, you've already approved this design, I just need a construction permit.
00:10:04
Speaker
And if your laws can, you know, reduce the restrictions for constructing nuclear power plants. And this is something we also discussed in our nuclear energy idea town that we conducted Lux that regulators are welcoming discussions on reducing emergency planning zones and things like that. So they are also willing to. understand what are the new possible use cases with nuclear and how these smaller designs can actually help reduce these planning zones and stuff when it comes to the construction permit. So I think that factor is going to help reduce these costs even more because you're licensing a design that you already have you know safety approvals for. And on top of that, construction permitting is simplified.
Nuclear Energy and Decarbonization
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah. And also, I think that as you mentioned in in there, one of the other things that jumped out to me about this is the
00:10:53
Speaker
um the focus on, or there there's is some explicit provisions around licensing for for novel applications, particularly non-electrical applications, um you know, co-citing with industry. And we've seen, and I think talked about earlier in the pod efforts around that, you know, like Dow has Dow Chemicals, the partnership with the small reactor developer X energy. Right. Yeah, exactly. So I think there's some interesting opportunities for decarbonization of industry that need you know access to low carbon power.
00:11:27
Speaker
you know base load, low carbon powered, a lot of their sites, but also potentially high temperature steam, which you can get off these these reactors and and and use that directly, not just for for electricity production. And there's also additional funding for and offsetting some of the fees and and and things for reactors on Department of Energy or critical infrastructure sites, critical national security sites, which includes like military bases, but also strategic manufacturing facilities as well. I think that given the current situation, current climate situation, I think that there is a consensus that we need to transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy resources ah sources and that ah nuclear power is key to that. But we at the same time,
00:12:19
Speaker
we can't lose ah sight of consumers out there and of the people. And nuclear power does remain a very contentious topic ah due to concerns about its risks, where there's risks about safety, waste management. And I was wondering if you have any knowledge of how important these concerns are within the current regulatory framework. Yeah, well I have kind of a pet theory about this, Alina, because you see, you know, in the Senate, right, like 88 votes, you know, this is a very strong, you know, overwhelming majority. And I think like you pointed out, there's growing consensus around the need to tackle climate change. Yeah.
00:12:58
Speaker
But there is still not a very strong consensus around nuclear. This is something we actually talked about with a Victoria last year. You know, we basically said that the the perception, the consumer perception of nuclear had kind of been reset, if you will. Right. There's now a lot of people reevaluating their position on it. So to me, one of the reasons that I have my pet theory, I'm curious what you think about this. I'm not the first person to say this, but my pet theory is that Because Democrats generally want climate change solutions, they're pro-nuclear. But then because a lot of environmental groups are still nominally anti-nuclear, although they've softened a lot, groups like Greenpeace are still anti-nuclear, right? ah Groups like the Sierra Club, I think, are still anti-nuclear, at least in their official stances.
00:13:48
Speaker
that gives Republicans cover to be like, we're sticking it to the, you know, the environmentalists a little bit here. um And, you know, a lot of I think what's in the bill as well is focused, there's a focus on coal conversion you know and and sort of converting existing fossil fuels to sites to to nuclear, which I think we're kind of skeptical of, Karthik. But Alina, I'm curious as to how much like that lack of consensus or lack of maybe ah sort of political, you know this isn't ah necessarily a one-side issue where there's a lot of environmentalists who are still anti-nuclear. And I'm curious as to how you think that maybe manifested or or didn't manifest in the actual sort of politics itself.
00:14:33
Speaker
I believe that aside from the political debate, there is a deep-seated fear against pure energy. There's not much understanding about the benefits and there's more understanding or like more reticence. ah based on the risks. And I myself, being originally from Eastern Europe, I have to say that at least from my vantage point, from my perspective, and what I've seen, and my bias is that it is if there's something to be to be taken with a grain of salt. And because of that, I think that policymakers have a duty to educate consumers, to to speak ah openly and broadly about the benefits of it.
00:15:20
Speaker
That would be the only way to ask you to switch the spheres. Yeah, it's an interesting area because it's obviously contentious, but you can see very different attitudes towards it within different countries. It seems sort of a bit based on the path that the power industry has taken in those countries where you have France being very pro-nuclear, and which is enabled, but or maybe also causes the the public support there for it to be to be very strong. and um you know Whereas Germany right next door is is much more ah negative on on on nuclear energy in the the the public opinion there.
00:16:04
Speaker
you know, with the US probably being a bit more on the positive side, but you definitely see that that mixed picture here as well. So, I mean, I i wonder if there' is there is a bit of a calculation of just sort of people the policymakers, like you said, trying to see this as a and as that sort of education opportunity. It's like, hey, if we if we build these advanced reactors, we make it easier to to try to, which I think is you could say is sort of the headline for this bill, we're trying to make it easier to achieve the benefits of nuclear power and for people to see the benefits of nuclear power, then you know maybe that will help people to become more more comfortable with it as well.
00:16:44
Speaker
Either way, it's a good vibes for the nuclear energy industry because the vibes cast is is positive. but the The vibes immaculate. But I mean, what do you what do you see it as a meucartic as sort of actually being the effect? And what are you, you know, conversations you're having with clients? Like what are what what what should people do as as a result of this? I think it's more about dialogue now. but especially with the US NRC if you are in the United States. I would definitely say now that, as I was mentioning, the one of the reasons also for the good vibes is because for ah especially if you are ah a pressurized water reactor developer and you are an SMR developer, the US government has allocated $900 million dollars this week, right before they got the act out. So I would definitely recommend anyone looking into this possibility to actually engage with pressurized water reactor developers.
00:17:39
Speaker
and get a sense of what's actually going on in terms of dialogues with the NRC and how quickly can they get these reactors deployed. um I don't expect what water are cooled reactors to be used for heat specifically. So co-location could be a challenge given you know the temperatures are about 350 degrees Celsius. So not applicable throughout the industry, let's say, but definitely a good place to start off with at least for microgrids and for onsite power generation and those kinds of small scale applications. So definitely that's the way to go about for now. yeah um I'll be interested to see also if we see as a result of this a spike in funding for some of these more advanced nuclear startups as well that make might make a lot of investors, maybe particularly strategic, more comfortable putting some so equity backing and in addition to you know partnerships and projects around these these type of technologies. Absolutely, and I think data center powering with nuclear is going to go up for sure. Yeah, yeah yeah absolutely.
00:18:37
Speaker
Well, I'm trying to land this transition. It's just not happening. I was really i' really looking but really been looking forward to this transition. The transition is that I'm nostalgic for a time when we had good nuclear regulation in the United States and when the deployment of nuclear power was growing faster than the deployment of fossil fuels. um That was, I think, briefly the case in the 1950s, I want to say, but only very briefly, maybe peaked in the 60s. and you know that kind of nostalgia. I think there's someone who could who could sell me a product based on that nostalgia. um You know, nostalgia driven sales of of light water reactors. But Alina, you wanted to to talk about nostalgia as this sort of cultural force and as this, this sort of trend, this moment that we're in.
Nostalgia in Marketing
00:19:28
Speaker
And
00:19:29
Speaker
There's a lot of interesting low case studies, but but why don't you why don't you talk to us about nostalgia? And I'm curious as to why you think it's having such a big moment right now. Yeah, sure. Well, nostalgic trends, I think they they're there more as a permanence, but we're we're seeing a spike recently you know when it comes to sales and advertising. and um I think that the value of nostalgic trends is ah that they tap into a deep-seated emotional connection that people have with their past experiences, ah with their memories, the cultural touchstones of their youth. And this connection can be incredibly powerful ah for for companies.
00:20:20
Speaker
And one of the reasons for that is that it does bring it does build brand loyalty. um Like I said, consumers view nostalgia as a portal to simpler times. ah It's evoking the warmth and comfort of childhood. it's It's like being a kid again. We're seeing, for example, adults accounting for more toy sales than preschoolers. According to a report by Circana, nearly half of shoppers over the age of 18 purchased a toy for themselves in the past years or not for their kids.
00:20:53
Speaker
right So at the same time, as we see this, when brands launch products with a throwback theme, consumers feel seen, they feel heard, understood. ah It's like speaking to them directly. So this personal connection can significantly enhance brand loyalty. right it's ah That's why Nostalgia is a powerful tool. Another aspect to to keep in mind is that nostalgia is not just about appealing to one generation, it's not just about me looking for
00:21:27
Speaker
things in the 80s, it often bridge bridges a gap between different generations. And many consumers find a lot of joy in sharing nostalgic experiences with their children. For example, I myself find it special when I share a game um that I played as a kid with my own son. And this cross-generational appeal um It means that nostalgic products and messages can resonate not only to those who personally experienced the past era, but also with younger generations who are discovering this for the first time. This this is why I love playing Mario Kart with my daughter.
00:22:08
Speaker
yeah my Besides also, and the the reason why I'm talking about the, so to say, the permanence of nostalgia as a as a tool, is that nostalgia brings comfort in times of uncertainty. and we always have like once Once in a while, if not always, there is some sense of uncertainty. um and in In times like that, nostalgia gives a sense of comfort and predictability. As inflation rises and as financial pressures increase, ah we tend to seek out familiar comfort. so For example, during COVID, um we saw Burger King refresh its branding for the first time in 20 years by drawing inspiration from its 1969-1999 logo. and They used rounded shapes and organic illustrations to create a sense of calm,
00:23:02
Speaker
and to remind that they're a brand to be trusted for years to come. I guess I'm curious here, what you see as kind of the root of this. Like, is it the case that this is something that is kind of naturally hitting a peak? Or is this something where, you know, you look at movies, right? And this is an area where there's now a lot of sequels, a lot of remakes, a lot of really established IP, especially established IP from you know, 20, 30 years ago, right? Being sort of refreshed and rehashed. You know, you see it in like all these different movies, like the superhero movies are kind of like the prototypical example of this. ah But there's been a really noticeable decline in independent IPs, right?
00:23:46
Speaker
I guess my question for you is, is this nostalgia trend driven by consumer desires as the primary cause, or is it dior driven by ah shareholder desires? right for you know As movies consolidated, as movie budgets got bigger, as shareholders are looking for more and more returns on less and less spending, you can go and back to the well of nostalgic products or nostalgic themes, IP. and have a cheaper and more surefire sort of product. So but what's really at the root of this, right? is it Is it consumers really being nostalgic more? And that's what's driving this spike? Or is it just ah corporate incentives to start driving a wave of nostalgic products?
00:24:32
Speaker
um I think that generally there's a mix of both, but ah recently we've seen more and more businesses driving this trend. And there's some voices out there like Kevin Ryan saying that ah we are reaching a point of oversaturation with nostalgia. Every business and their mother are tipping into this and consumers have had enough, right? um There's a sense of nostalgia fatigue that we're seeing in the market. and I personally think that ah yes, this is this might be true, but this doesn't necessarily mean that nostalgia is going to die out. it doesn't mean and ah Kevin Ryan says that it's going to die out, by the way. and i my My belief is that it can't do that because nostalgia is not something static.
00:25:20
Speaker
It evolves as new generations come of age. What resonates with millennials will differ from what appeals to gen Z. And as new demographics enter the market, there was there's always going to be opportunities to tap into their unique nostalgic point. And also, like I said, nostalgia provides an emotional escape in times of stress and uncertainty, and those are always bound to come sooner or later. And there will always there's always going to be a consumer segment that will seek nostalgic experiences, ah regardless of the market situation. ah But ah there are a few things that companies need to keep in mind in order to avoid this consumer fatigue. um And one of those is innovate. like Look for ways to innovate with nostalgia. Be smart about how you're approaching nostalgic
Innovative Marketing Strategies
00:26:12
Speaker
trends. Because consumers are smart enough they to see through the money grab
00:26:18
Speaker
um a tool that nostalgia can be in the hands of some companies. And one example would be, ah we've recently seen Oreo and Sour Patch Kids collaborate to to launch a sour cookie mashup. So tapping into nostalgia while also it's offering a fresh and multi-sensory snacking experience. So what we're seeing here is It's fact not like more. It's offering a fresh and multisensory experience that's terrible, darling. Come on. What they're doing, what Mondelez is doing, who is the parent company of both brands, it is actually capitalizing on multiple hot consumer trends. um and there They're basically putting a fresh spin on two classic and well-established suites.
00:27:13
Speaker
while also providing unexpected nature texture and flavor mashups that ah that in this case create a contrast between sweet and creamy mouthfeel and crispy cookie packed with the intense sourness. Yes, it is ah it is it is a nostalgic product with a new twist. And even if it's, and this is a ah limited, um um time release, right? So it's not ah is not intended to get consumers come to it over and over again, but think of it in terms of anticipation and the excitement that a release like this creates for consumers. This can be a short a time source of revenue.
00:27:59
Speaker
The other thing that companies need to keep in mind is that authenticity does matter. right So just simply replicating past designs without adding anything new, without adding any value, may not resonate well. Like like I said, consumers are savvy to see through the hack enough to see through the hype. and um And they can see recognize nostalgia as a potential money grab tool. but ah So because of that, companies need to um invest significant to do significant research, a particularly qualitative research, to to understand and genuinely connect with their target consumers and to speak their language and to meet their their needs. And here storytelling also has power.
00:28:51
Speaker
It's not just about the quality, or but it's also about compelling stories that rise above the noise of saturation. A meaningful narrative can go a long way. So when you're working with clients on this or as you know we think about, like what are they the it mean there's the obviously sort of the aspect of um you know, finding what trends and things you want to to to try to tap into within this, you know, specific things you want to try to tap into with this, but there's also, you know, kind of how do you innovate around it or how do you actually, you know, what ah what are the kinds of approaches or technologies or or or tactics people are taking to like, think about coming up, like with, as you said, not just replicating something from the 80s or whatever, but but trying to to put a new twist on it.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, there's there's multiple strategies that we've seen. um One, I cannot talk about our specific client, so I'm going to speak broadly. um One way is through design integration, right? Like products can combine nostalgic aesthetics with revolutionary functions and technologies, so with innovation. um So one one example that comes to mind is um classic video game consoles with modern capabilities. ah so For example, the Nintendo Switch, the NES controllers that look like the original 80s controllers, but they work wirelessly with modern technology. and This allows gamers to enjoy both the nostalgic experience, but also the the convenience that they expect.
00:30:34
Speaker
um and Another example could be the the Mini Cooper Electric that maintains its compact size and distinctive silhouette. um ah But on the inside, it's equipped with an all-electric powertrain, digital instrumentation, advanced driver-assist system connectivity. So it's it's the package, right? ah The package can evolve, no that or like the the form, and can you can tap into this nostalgic element, whereas the content can be pure innovatory. Another... Clearly what we need to do is have a small modular nuclear reactor that's painted.
00:31:23
Speaker
Paint it to look like pulp. Paint it green.
00:31:28
Speaker
By the way, talking about green, there's also um sustainability plays a big role here. Really? Yes, because we're seeing consumers increasingly concerned with sustainability and ethical consumption. So products with ah with an innovation twist such as repurposed or made with sustainable materials can align with these values. so ah In 2015, Adidas partnered with the Parley Ocean Plastics and they created the um a line of shoes under Adidas original brand ah that that retained the iconic design, but so maintained the aesthetic appeal of their plastic sneaker design, but was ah made out of out of of sustainable material. so It was made out of um recycled ocean plastic.
00:32:20
Speaker
right So this initiative, it not only like it gave life to reclaimed materials, but also ah reduced the environmental impact and provided consumers with a product and that was both familiar, but also sustainable and forward thinking. Are there any concerns of greenwashing when it comes to these nostalgic products? Of course, consumers um consumers do are are very, very sensitive to greenwashing, so it it has to be done in a smart way. I mean, in this case, it was actually done of recycled ocean plastic. Yeah, recycled ocean plastics, to me, that whole category is greenwashing because it's like, what are you even doing? Like, how many you know tons of material are you really pulling out of the ocean? Yeah.
00:33:10
Speaker
You know, I think we're all nostalgic for a time when the oceans weren't filled with plastics. And hopefully we'll get to that point in the future. But I think we'll leave it there for now. I just want to say to the listener, this is is a production of Lux Research. You can like, you can subscribe. You can rate the podcast on Apple Podcasts on Spotify. If you like the podcast, we really appreciate you doing that. You can leave a comment as we've shifted to the twice a week format. Do write in, let us know. Comments are turned on on these platforms. Let us know if this is a good change, if we should keep it up. With that, we'll see you next time.
00:33:52
Speaker
Innovation Matters is a production of Lux Research, the leading sustainable innovation research and advisory firm. You can follow this podcast on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you want more, check out www.luxresearchinc dot.com slash blog for all of the latest news, opinions, and articles. so