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Can nuclear power solve data centers' energy problem?
72 Plays1 month ago
Nuclear energy is undeniably having a renaissance, but there are still major hurdles to actually increasing the amount of nuclear energy in the world. Karthik and Anthony take on two recent announcements - the restart of Three Mile Island, and BlackRock's USD 30 billion data center fund - to try to figure out where nuclear goes from here.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Backstory
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the Innovation Matters podcast brought to you by Lux Research. I'm Anthony Skiavo. I'm senior director and principal analyst here at Lux. I am your host. I am joined by my my friend Karthik Subramanian. Karthik, how are you doing?
00:00:26
Speaker
Yeah, I'm doing good. Thanks. The weather's finally getting colder and I'm quite excited for the winter ahead. It's funny. I was talking to one of your colleagues just the other day and they were not happy with the situation. You know, I think the rain, um, as well as, you know, the general sort of darkness was beginning to get to them, but it's just me and Karthik on the podcast today. Uh, it's a bit of a cursed podcast. Amy was going to join us, but the power went out in her entire building as we were beginning to record the podcast.
00:00:53
Speaker
And Mike was going to join us, but apparently the the Federal Bureau of Investigation came and seized all his electronic devices in connection with, um apparently some connection with Eric Adams um right before we were going to start the podcast. So that's tough. you know That's tough. we're We're all praying for him. we know that ah We know that Eric did nothing wrong here on this podcast and you know werere we're we're hopeful that justice will be done and and Mike will be released from the federal prison.
00:01:22
Speaker
That's a joke. that's of course this is for record At least as far as I'm aware, I haven't heard from him in 24 hours, so it could be true, but hopefully Mike comes back. Yeah. Hopefully Mike comes back. We'll we'll ask him for updates. We'll ask him for updates when he, when he returns.
Restarting Three Mile Island and Energy Agreements
00:01:41
Speaker
But um'm speaking of the the federal government of the United States of America, we wanted to talk about two sort of recent developments in the power sector, one of which which is is quite, I think, linked to the federal government. And that's the potential restarting of the nuclear, one, I should say, of the nuclear power plants at Three Mile Island.
00:02:06
Speaker
um very famous nuclear power a generation facility. The Three Mile Island famously was the site of a major nuclear disaster, um a meltdown right in in one of the cores. ah Interestingly, you know it caused about a billion dollars, I think, in damage to ah the facility itself, ah but no actual human health consequences directly, I should say.
00:02:31
Speaker
Indirectly, of course, it's one of the things that led to the basically the end of the development of nuclear power globally, along with Chernobyl. And in that context, it's probably one of the most expensive and deadliest disasters of all time, because the alternative was coal. And coal kills about 1,000 people per plant per year, on average, um just from air quality issues and you know, climate change and other, and other associated factors. So the actual human consequences of the three mile island disaster were pretty terrible. Um, but just not in the the kind of direct way that we think about, but now, you know, Microsoft wants to, uh, or has signed an agreement to help restart the first unit of the three mile island. Yeah. With, um, I believe the constellation. Yes.
00:03:26
Speaker
And so, Karthik, I mean, you're the nuclear guy. What's the take here? First of all, talk to me a little more detail about the deal itself. What's going on? How is this structured? And then, you know what? So this, as things stand, is a PPA with Constellation, I believe, for about 20 years. ah The estimates suggest that Microsoft is going to pay somewhere around 100 US dollars a megawatt hour to about 115, 120 dollars a megawatt hour.
00:03:54
Speaker
which is $20 more than what a typical data center operator wants to pay. So for those who have not heard the news, this is to power a data center, not for anything else, and to reduce their carbon emissions. Yeah, we're going to touch on that in a second. We're going to touch on that. And so it's quite surprising that they are willing to spend a premium for a nuclear reactor that was shut down because it was expensive, but again, due to different reasons.
00:04:22
Speaker
um But they just want to spend a premium on that because they believe that's the reliable power source they need. And it doesn't mean like this agreement does not mean that the reactor will come online because the parties themselves have not obtained an approval from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the United States to restart the plant. So if all goes well, this will come back online in 2028. So it is speculative at this point. and It is speculative. That's good to understand. And they're also applying, I believe, for a ah DOE loan, I think up to $1.6 billion dollars yeah um in in and costs to help um you know get the get the Three Mile Island plant operational. um but And this is not necessarily something
00:05:16
Speaker
that is unheard of, right? There have been other nuclear plants restarted recently, and and not just restarted, but um restarted by Constellation. The Diablo Canyon was restarted. Diablo Canyon, was that them? Okay, so Constellation, they did Diablo Canyon, which was this sort of challenging, I think delayed, um not easy restart of a nuclear power plant, but they did restart a nuclear power plant in recent memory.
00:05:43
Speaker
Can we dig a little bit more into the price part here? Because how is this actually structured, right? um my My understanding is that basically they agreed to pay a minimum price per kilowatt hour or more or less They would buy, sort of, the Three Mile Island would sell electricity to to the grid, right?
Data Centers' Power and Cooling Challenges
00:06:08
Speaker
um Microsoft would buy energy from the grid. And then, in the case that the price of electricity was lower, that that that constellation was getting paid,
00:06:22
Speaker
was lower than what they agreed to basically with Microsoft, Microsoft would make up the difference. Is that correct? Do I have the correct understanding of of how that's that works? And that's fairly different than
00:06:40
Speaker
some of the other nuclear deals we've talked about where they are putting the data center like directly next to the nuclear power plant, more or less, and there would be just sort of a direct purchase of power, right? This is this is a bit more ah ah bit more abstracted away from from that, right?
00:06:56
Speaker
Reuters right they reported that they're going to pay somewhere between $110 and $115 per megawatt hour as part of this this fixed price PPA. And I think, you know based on my understanding, this is you know if the price of electricity is that constellation is getting paid for its energy is is less than this, Microsoft will basically make them whole. They're going to pay an additional fee.
00:07:23
Speaker
because They're going to pay the difference, right? Because basically, Constellation is going to sell electricity to the grid, Microsoft is going to buy electricity to the grid, and then Microsoft will will make them whole. um Fun fact, my college roommate is actually one of the lawyers who who helped write the PPA ah for this particular... Very interesting. um So I was messaging back and forth with him yesterday about it. But um why do you think they... I mean,
00:07:49
Speaker
Why do you think that they agreed to pay this premium? is it Is the alternative just not... Like what's the alternative case here? Not getting enough juice to be able to run their data centers at all? So using... gas peaker plants like like like what's the what's the alternative So I think there's two ways to look at this, right? So the first question I would ask is where do data center operators get their electricity from generally? And so ah we are seeing a lot of trends where data center operators want to have microgrids on their own.
00:08:20
Speaker
and just be completely independent of the grid. But most of them, at least the operational ones today, work similar to how Constellation is working with Microsoft right now in the form of PPAs. Now, not every utility in the world has access to nuclear power. And so most of the power that comes today is through ah a very you know a mix of various generation sources, depending on their portfolios.
00:08:42
Speaker
Now, because there is a surge in data center demand, I have heard from a lot of data center experts who we've had conversations with on power procurement that a lot of utilities now want to extend the life of their coal plants just to meet demand because they know that if they try to get a solar park online,
00:09:01
Speaker
They have to wait for maybe you know grid connection and the and there are interconnection delays. They don't want to go through that process. So any existing power plant that can help make the data center operator work.
00:09:13
Speaker
they just you know quickly hook the data center onto that power source. Similar to how Amazon Web Services did with Talon Energy. So there was already a nuclear power plant that existed. There was a data center nearby. I'm just going to hook my data center onto that power plant. So ah the reason why a data center operator wants to pay this premium is because um they do face what I call outage anxiety.
00:09:39
Speaker
And there is a big challenge when it comes to procuring power for data centers, primarily because um a lot of data center operators are not good with system modeling per se. So when they're having conversations with utilities on PPAs, what I've heard is that most of the dialogue is very you know surface level. So they say, I need 200 megawatts. And then they're like, you know what, maybe I need 250. So there is no concrete,
00:10:06
Speaker
a precise calculation though that goes behind those numbers. And so a utility may fail to meet the PPE. Does it fluctuate? is Is this a thing where, like hey, like we have this data center and maybe AI demand is a lot higher than we thought? Or like we installed a new rack of GPUs and they're a lot more energy efficient than the old GPUs and now powered. like like what's the is it Is it a failure of like business practice to be able to model demand accurately?
00:10:35
Speaker
Or is it the case that demand is is changing a lot because conditions? And the tech industries can change a lot in two years in ways that aren't really ah predictable or up both. you know some Based on the information we have, I think it is more so a business practice thing, actually. Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. Screw that. What's up? but but makes Even otherwise, if you look at how these data center operators work, um you you mentioned you know like more efficient GPUs and things like that, right? So if you look at the overall energy flow of a data center and what actually consumes them, the, the major proportion of your data center is actually the cooling, not the server itself. So let us say, yeah, and so let's say everyone comes home and we all start, you know, logging onto Instagram or, you know, tick tock and, and, and, you know, want to post stuff and there's like, as yes. and And let's say there's like a surge in demand at this point.
00:11:32
Speaker
The difference in change of server utilization itself is much lower than the corresponding change in cooling demand. So your cooling demand suddenly goes up while your energy use of your, you know, it's not a one is to one relation, let's say.
00:11:46
Speaker
and So the rise in cooling demand is much higher. And all of these data centers, they typically use air cooling with chillers. So that's why you have these large cooling towers, you know, with water cool. And so they're quite inefficient. And from what I know as well, most of the layouts
AI's Impact on Energy Demands and Infrastructure Risks
00:12:00
Speaker
within data centers for cooling aren't efficient either. So there is very poor flows of air. Really, you do not have, you know, there are some parts that are hotter than the other parts of the data centers are not great either.
00:12:12
Speaker
And because these data center chips are very temperature sensitive, ah you know that's where the demand goes up. And frankly, that also depends on external temperatures and how that is going to be like. So I feel a combination of all these business practices is what leads to that issue of, hey, we just need power right now. Quickly give me power.
00:12:33
Speaker
And because they can't do that um as a utility because they have other you know um sources also ah demand sources to cater to, I think all these data center operators would rather just have one source completely dedicated to them to say, I'll have a nuclear power plant and a battery backup or a diesel generator. And that's just ki kick in when I need to perform maintenance or something else. So I just want to be grid independent.
00:12:58
Speaker
So how much then, because I think one of the things that we've heard and that one of the narratives out there is that. AI is causing this big spike in data center demand. right And you know I think we've pushed back on this a fair bit. First of all, AI is just not one of the leading causes or leading uses of data centers. um If you think about computational power, Bitcoin is still way, way higher than yeah way way higher than AI and also growing really quickly. um And I mean, people have correctly written about how Bitcoin is really bad.
00:13:33
Speaker
um And and you know AI, I guess the question is,
00:13:40
Speaker
you know you look at this is something I want to talk about and want to dig into more on maybe another episode, but like AI companies are losing a lot of money. right I think open AI, recent reporting, you know they're they're on track for maybe a billion dollars or so of revenue this year, um maybe more. And you know they're they're losing about $2.50. They're spending about $2.50 for every $1 in revenue that they make. right um And a lot of that is cloud compute. A lot of that is compute credits. um So actually running these servers is not a
00:14:21
Speaker
net money generating activity for anyone at this point, right? I mean, it's money generating for the operator of the server or whatever, but the actual product for the the AI product is is losing a lot of money still. So what's the risk, I guess, in your view of this data centers being built or more to the point the energy infrastructure being built to support them. And then either the demand not being there because the AI application sort of failed to pan out and AI demand is a lot lower because you have to raise the costs of a of AI services a lot in order to make it profitable and then people don't want to buy it or it doesn't make sense.
00:15:07
Speaker
or there's just not as much demand for AI. Is that a risk?
Risks in Nuclear Projects and Fuel Supply Concerns
00:15:11
Speaker
Because yeah on the flip one side, it's like people are projecting a lot of growth for AI, so it seems like there's this mismatch there yeah potentially, and you're already sort of paying a premium. Microsoft's already paying a premium for the juice here, and and you know that seems challenging in the context of AI losing money.
00:15:27
Speaker
But on the on the other hand, you know, we've we've talked a lot about how AI isn't that big of a deal, actually, in terms of data center demand. And a lot of the demand is growth is just coming from like overall load growth is growing a lot. um So like, is there a risk that like constellation gets burned on this? And does that risk come from like energy demand or does that risk come from more like cost overruns on actually getting Oh, it's going to cost $3 billion dollars instead of $1.6 billion dollars to get this thing back up? Like, like where where are the risks here?
00:15:56
Speaker
I think there are both those risks actually, because anytime with nuclear, I'd say, now the thing is ah we have to always talk about public perception with nuclear, right? Now people want cleaner power, but they also don't want nuclear power. So we need to find different ways to get them back online or or a way to satisfy both thoughts. And so if that is the case, ah I don't see a big cost overrun challenge per se, because there is not much construction involved.
00:16:25
Speaker
ah But because there was a nuclear disaster, I'm sure people would be asking, how what are the new measures you're gonna introduce to prevent such a thing happening again? And so that could be a big issue when it comes to just getting the permits to come online by 2028. So um if if construction were involved, if you know you needed a new fuel, things like that, that could be a big challenge to lead to some cost overruns. But I don't think the magnitude of cost overruns will be very high. I think it will still exist.
00:16:53
Speaker
because their main challenges would be, as I said, getting the permissions. And the second thing is just procuring fuel and getting fuel supply, especially if you're on, um you know, not good terms with Russia or or Kazakhstan to get fuel, that would be a challenge. today So that could cause some overruns.
00:17:11
Speaker
yeah ah look Can we talk about that for a sec? Um, cause you know, we had, I'm blanking on the name. We had that nuclear expert on it. I'm going to insert his name later and in, in post-production. Matt Crozak. Um, Matt Crozak. Shout out Matt. I'm sorry for forgetting your name. It's terribly disrespectful of me as a podcast host. Um, we had him on and he talked a lot about fuel and and particularly how a lot of fuel does come from Russia and not just from Russian minds, but also in the form of Russian weapons, right? Decommission bombs.
00:17:44
Speaker
And obviously now that program has fallen by the wayside in in light of recent, relatively recent events, Russia's invasion of Ukraine. What is the status of nuclear fuel supply and how how much of a risk is this? you know So if you look at the US specifically, ah as of 2021, if I'm not mistaken, only 0.02% of uranium supply comes from the US.
00:18:13
Speaker
And about 43% comes from Kazakhstan and another 6% from Russia. So almost 50% of your entire fuel supply comes from Russia and Kazakhstan. So very centralized. ah There are other places that also produce uranium. For example, Australia has a lot of reserves, I believe the third largest reserve. ah Canada has some reserves as well.
00:18:34
Speaker
but I don't know if they have policies to allow mining just yet. So their production is not as high as Kazakhstan or Russia. And if you look at what's been going on with the Inflation Reduction Act in the United States, you have had a lot of talks about building um a uranium fuel supply chain, the Heli fuel, specifically ah the power plant that Bill Gates wanted to build in Wyoming ah with Terra Power. That has been pushed two years back because they're now scared that they can't procure the fuel on time.
00:19:01
Speaker
so Even existing power plants ah or the ones that are under construction are not sure if they can get the fuel on time. It is a very valid concern even for a plant like this. Can they get the the fuel on time? It's a very centralized supply chain, not really great if you do want to scale up nuclear.
00:19:21
Speaker
Is there a US government effort to like change this? This seems like the kind of thing that like the DOE would have their have some concerns about. if yeah so The DOE is also working on developing a localized Treso fuel supply chain. so The Treso is the ceramic pebble ah-based ah nuclear fuel, um much more safer in terms of containing the fission products that are produced from the nuclear reaction. ah They're easier to handle and dispose, so but at least manage rather than dispose. I don't think dispose is the right one, but at least manage.
AI Data Center Fund and Clean Power Options
00:19:51
Speaker
so There is a lot of effort from within the United States to build its own supply chain, but
00:19:55
Speaker
um Again, you have to factor in nuclear demand versus whether the fuel supply can you know ramp up to that demand quickly enough. And I always think there'll be a mismatch when it comes to that. So it will be challenging.
00:20:11
Speaker
ah So speaking of investing and ramping up nuclear power and all that, the other thing we wanted to talk about was Microsoft and BlackRock. They've launched a $30 billion dollars AI data center investment fund. um This is for investing in data centers, right? So it's not just in power, um but it's also for investing in power, right? um That's part of it.
00:20:40
Speaker
and
00:20:43
Speaker
You know, a a big part of that potentially is investment in in nuclear, right? um Nuclear is probably the best type of power, I would say, for data centers, right? It is clean. I mean, cost let's put it cost aside for a second, right? But it's clean, right? It's firm. um it's It's very centralized. You can have a lot of it in a small area, right? Small land footprint, if you will.
00:21:13
Speaker
um so ah First of all, I guess what's your overall read on this $30 billion dollars investment fund? and then you know How much of this do you think will flow to energy? What do you think this $30 billion i means for the energy sector in general? So in terms of just the power infrastructure side of things, I think it makes a lot of sense, and so but but not surprising to me, ah especially because if you look at someone like Google and their clean transition tariff, which we spoke about and has always been spoken about in passing over the last few episodes, they're very clear that the premium that we pay to get electricity is going to help
00:21:52
Speaker
to develop in power infrastructure to power our data centers and not just data centers, general operations. And also we are gonna look at things like load matching to you know hourly load matching to help improve our carbon accounting. So um not surprising that the $30 billion dollars is going to power power infrastructure. ah But what I wanted to focus on more was the power source itself when it comes to data centers and to your point on why nuclear is kind of good.
00:22:21
Speaker
now While I do agree with nuclear, if you look at general developments right now with data centers on how they want to get clean firm power, um you of course have geothermal, which Google is working on with Furbo, for example, ah Meta signed a deal with Sage as well to get 150 megawatts of geothermal. ah So there is some potential in advanced geothermal systems like EGS, enhanced geothermal systems, hot dry rock. So you don't need a conventional geothermal power source.
00:22:49
Speaker
But one dark horse that I think is largely ignored just for the cost reasons I would say is fuel cells. I think, the and the reason why I say that is because if you look at nuclear and geothermal generally, ah besides the cost overrun, even if we assume that it's it's cheap to build a nuclear power plant or a geothermal power plant, it takes about 10 years to get them online, right? So if you look at a new data center that wants to come online by 2030, unless you have a nuclear power plant that's already halfway through construction, you can't expect it to power your data center.
00:23:23
Speaker
which is why all of these data center operators are going to existing power plants, right? But with a fuel cell, you don't have that issue. So if you want a new data center in a place that has no grid connection, just deploy fuel cells at whatever capacity you like. If you are deploying a high temperature fuel cell, you can run it on natural gas. So you can use existing piping infrastructure. Now, there are some carbon emissions associated with it, but it is more efficient than your combustion-based solutions.
00:23:52
Speaker
ah So there are opportunities, and if you're a utility, it opens a new business model because if you have a nearby neighborhood, which is what data center operators typically tend to do, so they build a data center next to a neighborhood, you can use district heating infrastructure with a waste heat produced by a fuel cell and then just reroute that. So downstream
Exploring Alternative Power Sources for Data Centers
00:24:09
Speaker
operations are now being decarbonized. So several options here, and I think fuel cells should be considered.
00:24:15
Speaker
ah This is interesting because a lot of the concern, right, is that we're going to build a bunch of natural gas plants. Right. And apparently like meta or not meta, excuse me. Um, X the everything brought to you on left. Right. They have this data center that they build pretty quickly in Texas. I think, uh, excuse me. So Memphis said they have this Memphis supercomputer for XAI, but they have apparently.
00:24:46
Speaker
They built it in 19 days, very impressive. There is a concern over how much energy they're using, and in particular, because they are using, I want to say, 18 turbines, natural gas power turbines. These like small scale, sort of you know this is not like one big plant. Micro-CHP kind of installation. you know Yeah, like micro combined heat and power yeah like turbines.
00:25:12
Speaker
to power this thing because they are, you know, they built it in like 18 days or whatever, you know, and there's people saying, oh, they're operating these gas turbines illegally. So basically the point is like you can put, if you want to build a data center quickly, what you do is you put natural gas turbines in place. But are fuel cells really proven enough to like using natural gas to power your react, your your your your data center and not using a turbine is great, right?
00:25:42
Speaker
But the point of turbines is that you can buy them really quickly and easily and it's improving technology and they're available commercially, blah, blah, blah, blah. Are fuel cells really the same? like like has anyone Has anyone done large-scale infrastructure or even small-scale infrastructure power with fuel cells like this in the past? The big bet people generally have with a fuel cell is that you know it is fuel flexible, so they're basically waiting waiting for the hydrogen economy to kick in. um Now, the issue is that there hasn't been as as much demand as you say for fuel cells, so unfortunately not enough manufacturing capacity to have fuel cells in.
00:26:19
Speaker
And of course, because there is no demand for fuel cells, they're just very pricey to make. As expensive as nuclear per kilowatt, if you ask me, if you want to build, ah just you know purchase a fuel cell. So it becomes very difficult compared to a gas turbine, which is easier. Now, the challenge with a gas turbine, of course, is if you want to switch to nuclear i mean to hydrogen fuels, for example, um you only have to change the combustor. So there is some retrofitting involved.
00:26:44
Speaker
But I think the cost of retrofitting is cheaper than ah fuel cells at this point. So from a cost perspective, it's not great. But um there is one thing that could tip the scales in fuel cells as favor, and that is regulations. Typically, you see fuel cell installations are scattered around the world and in places where you know you do have favorable policies to deploy fuel cells because they are pro-hydrogen. And they are giving a lot of subsidies to use hydrogen.
00:27:12
Speaker
Now, from a data center standpoint, and this is quite interesting, and I think these regulations will also be ah mirrored in other regions across the world. So the European Union is the only region, if I'm not mistaken, to have accounting regulations for data center emissions.
00:27:29
Speaker
so So they want data centers to become more sustainable and so they have to report to the EU where they're procuring power from, what are the carbon emissions associated with the power that they procure. So scope two emissions basically. And so I believe fuel cells are a great opportunity in Europe because your emissions are way lower than using a gas turbine even if cheaper. So there is a ah reward even if the risk is slightly higher.
00:27:56
Speaker
and Now, this is not the case in a place like the US or in Asia. So it remains to be seen if those regulations kick in, but if they do kick in, then the reward of complying with regulations is far higher than the reward associated with using cheap gas turbines. So is there any momentum towards these regulations in the United States? Like, have we seen people talk about this? you know And where would they come from? The EPA, FERC.
00:28:23
Speaker
um Yeah, I'm guessing from the EIA as well. um ah But there from what I know, there has been dialogue in the White House to talk about sustainable data centers, but nothing concrete as of now in the US. s so But if it does come online, and again, the like the results of the elections will have an impact on these kind of regulations, of course.
00:28:43
Speaker
But I think such a regulation will be important ah for fuel cells to kick in. otherwise um Unfortunately, I don't think the trend will change for data centers. They will continue to use you know PPA power and the utility then decides what power source they keep on and off. um Because if the data center operator has no incentive to report their emissions or reduce their emissions, then why would they?
Growth Strategies and Conclusion
00:29:05
Speaker
Yeah, because right now this is all really coming from companies like Microsoft, their own internal goals, right? And their own desire to, I guess, manage the public perception of AI. There's there's not really a regulatory incentive. And, you know, and Elon is doing and he sort of the opposite, yes right? he's He's sort of exactly going just going as quick as possible and burning as much fuel as possible.
00:29:32
Speaker
And if I may add, I would say that um if you look at the United States specifically and how data centers have grown, they have typically grown in clusters. So you would see that a lot of data centers in Virginia, for example, and they just keep continuing to scale in Virginia because they have the ability to take that demand. So if you have a nuclear power plant in Virginia, then it becomes very easy to connect that and then reduce your emissions right away because there are data centers growing there. The issue starts when you have to go to a new place to build a data center and there's nothing available to connect it to.
00:30:03
Speaker
um So that would be interesting to see how these companies decide on the power sources and how they want to go low carbon. but All right. Well, as companies continue to scale or not scale AI and data centers and all that stuff, we will continue to talk about it here on the Innovation Matters podcast. um We have some good interviews coming up. I know we've been a little flaky recently. um It's been challenging with with all the ah federal indictments flying around, but um I'm sure that we'll get back to our normal schedules now.
00:30:37
Speaker
um If you like this podcast, you can like, you can subscribe. We are on all your major podcasting apps. We're on Spotify, we're on Apple Podcasts, we're on overcast.fm, you name it. um You can also check out some of our other ah you know media. We have the blog, we have newsletters, www.luxresearchinc dot.com. So we hope to see you again, and thanks so much for listening.
00:31:06
Speaker
Innovation Matters is a production of Lux Research, the leading sustainable innovation research and advisory firm. You can follow this podcast on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you want more, check out www.luxresearchinc dot.com slash blog for all of the latest news, opinions, and articles. so