Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome back. to the Democracy Volunteers podcast series, Elections Across the World. In this series, we invite guests to talk about the major and most obscure elections in the world last month.
Speaker: Today we look at the Moroccan election that took place on the 23rd of September and we have a lot to cover. from a constitutional monot - monarchy where king muhammad the sixth still holds real governing powers to an election that just produced Morocco's first ever female prime minister.
Speaker: to an election where turnout dropped to 38%, the lowest in ah in two decades. all All this happens with the backdrop of a booming economy set to grow by 4 .4 % this year and the Soita crisis where last month 60 ,000 Moroccans attempted to flee the country.
Speaker: to help us make sense of all of this. I'm delighted to welcome back onto the podcast Professor of Modern European History at the University of Sussex. martin evans martin it's great to have you back on how are you yeah great too great to be here thanks a lot looking forward to the conversation Very much so.
Speaker: So we were just talking off air about... your personal experience in Morocco, because you you were there. during the election. I'm just wondering for our listeners, can you kind of give a sense of what what it was like to be in Morocco during the election.
Speaker: Well, it's really interesting. I mean, I was there ah for a few days before the 23rd of September. And what really struck me is for... for a large number of moroccans that i spoke to In particular, younger Moroccans, let's say under 40.
Speaker: It really would be important to say it was a non -event, that they were not voting. um they're not registered to vote. They'd not become particularly involved in following the the campaign of the last two weeks.
Speaker: And they really expressed to me a kind of a deep -seated sort of cynicism and skepticism. about what the point of this was, what I heard about again and again.
Speaker: was this idea that this is just a facade, it's just an elite. that's that that that's playing a game and that we really know that it's not really changing. ah already dealing with the real problems in in in in Morocco. So it's the idea that there is a kind of political elite.
Speaker: Hmm and that that that is in charge and that we already know what the results are going to be. ah before anybody's cast their ballot. So I think I experienced a lot of skepticism.
Speaker: from people, particularly younger people, about about this being in any way a meaningful exercise. Hmm. I'm really focusing in on kind of... you've dissatisfaction with the moroccan government Looking at the facts, only 19 % of under 35s voted in the election, which when you think about...
Speaker: the turnout was 38%. That is... so low for such a young generation Would you say that this is kind of... reflective of a younger generation that almost just doesn't care about politics or about actually not voting.
Speaker: is a form of protest. but i think I think you're right to underline that. I don't think it's a generation that doesn't care about politics. I think it actually is a generation that does care about politics. and in In September 2025, we had large -scale demonstrations. It was called the Gen Z demonstrations in Morocco. Some people saw this as a kind of um a worldwide phenomenon. There were similar demonstrations in Madagascar.
Speaker: But that was a set of demonstrations that were provoked by um in which is in the southern part of the country. the hospital there there are a number of women that had died in childbirth i think it was eight And people eventually...
Speaker: this provoked a set of demonstrations. where people were saying on the one hand Morocco is about to welcome the African Nations Cup. It's produced huge infrastructure, huge stadiums.
Speaker: Yet on the other hand... It can't deliver. basic health care. to its citizens and this became part of a set of demands around health care. and around around education.
Speaker: And you got the real sense that in particular for a younger generation under 30. that that they they somehow feel very disenfranchised. within within Morocco.
Speaker: um and also there's a sense of a a blocked society blocked society economically they find it very, very hard to to to advance ah ah economically.
Speaker: And... um also a kind of real so dissatisfaction over over some aspects of of freedom of expression within within within Morocco. and i think that issue about.
Speaker: about the economic side of it, even though people are talking about Morocco as a booming country. And if you go to Morocco, particularly if you go to... Casablanca, Tangiers Or if you go to Rabat.
Speaker: These are parts of the country which are economically booming. I think that Morocco has become... the largest producer of of cars in Africa. It's surpassed South Africa. So there's a lot of statistical information that's telling us that... that that Morocco is booming economically.
Speaker: The question is, how is this being distributed economically? And a lot of people feel this is being distributed. and equally socially. so that the sort of like poorer working class areas are not benefiting from it and also regionally so there's some be some areas like the reef region in northern Morocco. where actually that economic boom is is is almost non -existent. I mean, there are parts of the of the reef where people say here...
Speaker: the state doesn't exist we're really supported by by the Reefian diaspora in in the Netherlands, in France and in in Belgium. So I think it's important to say that the that yes, on the one hand, it would seem that statistically Morocco is ah is ah is ah is is is a booming country. There is a burgeoning...
Speaker: middle classes happening there. but the it People often talk about it as being a two -speed society. And in a sense, There are winners, but there are not enough winners at the moment.
Speaker: and this is causing enormous amounts of social tension particularly amongst young people. where the the the rates of unemployment then become... really, really large. there are large numbers of young people that are very very highly educated, often got degrees.
Speaker: but they're surviving through an informal economy. And this is provoking a lot of dissatisfaction. Hmm. And is that where we're seeing... Would you agree with this idea that actually kind of...
Speaker: Morocco is set to grab a 4 .4 % GDP and you have the kind of external look of Morocco, which is hosting football competitions such as AFCON this year, well last year, sorry, and then...
Speaker: in 2030 hosting the World Cup. Is that contrast between... building these amazing amazing stadiums. and The youth.
Speaker: on unemployment, is that exacerbating kind of... Is that entering into the political sphere at all? Are politicians looking at that and seeing that as a problem?
Speaker: I think there are um politicians that are that are seeing that. i mean the the the interesting thing in terms of the dynamics within within um Moroccan politics is on the one hand you've got a government and a parliament.
Speaker: And then on the other hand, you've got a king. And it kind of... um a sort of it's almost kind of like a shadow shadow government. of of of of people who who who report directly to the king and the king obviously has the kind of right to... to invite the Prime Minister and to make strategic employments within the Cabinet. So I think a lot of the issues are really... um about who has the real power.
Speaker: within ah Morocco and who is democratically accountable. So certainly If we think of in 2023, ah there was the In the autumn, there was there was a major earthquake.
Speaker: in in in Morocco. And again, there the government got really criticised. in terms of ah the nature of its response. Was it quick enough? Was it, was it was was you know, were were were kind of sort of doctors...
Speaker: ah relief agencies there quick enough but then it also then became soon extended into a kind of criticism about the king. Where was the king? What was the king doing? So I think in a lot of conversations that Moroccans have,
Speaker: there is a kind of debate about where the real power happens Who has the real power? and how democratically... accountable this is and certainly What we see again and again are... ah a lot of ordinary Moroccans would point their finger at a number of significant figures.
Speaker: that are part of the political establishment and say actually they've got huge economic interests which they personally benefit from. in terms of ah of of government of of government decisions. So I think that idea of kind of sense of of of a system that's not transparent.
Speaker: we're actually sort of... corruption is is is is endemic. But there are some mainstream politicians that I think are... um very very aware of this disconnect i mean it's interesting if you if you look at um There was a kind of um fashion magazine from September that I was looking at, which is kind of women of Morocco that I was looking at. And it's really interesting in that magazine, there are actually a large number of articles.
Speaker: about the way in which the government is trying to produce schemes which is really engaging. trying to get young people to engage with political parties. and to engage with... um with the political process. I think there is an awareness.
Speaker: amongst the elites. of of the problem is at hand. The problem is Or the question is, is the political will to do to to to to deal with it? Hmm. And there you touched on...
Speaker: the king's powers and where blame is portioned. in the system so would you say that actually the king escapes quite a lot of the blame from younger people, especially. And can you kind of clarify?
Speaker: where power actually sits between the government and the king because for our listeners kind of a constitutional monarchy is is is a strange thing and it's something which kind of we have it here but in a way it's informal and it's yeah It's yeah not like it is in Morocco.
Speaker: And I think actually to understand this, I think it's actually quite important to have a kind of, it's the benefits of history of the longer historical view. that essentially um Morocco gains independence in 1956.
Speaker: And the important thing to look to understand there is that actually Muhammad V, who was... deposed by the French in 1953 because they thought that he was anti -French.
Speaker: becomes a symbol. of anti -colonialism so he he kind of emerges in the independence pitch, the enormous legitimacy. Now you can contrast this.
Speaker: In Egypt in 1952 you have the overthrow of King Farouk. And King Farouk is overthrown by the by by a group of kind of army army officers because they say that Farouk is just a stooge for the British. He's just a kind of puppet for the British.
Speaker: and that we need to get rid of him. So the monarchy... emerges in independence with enormous amount of of of of legitimacy. And then there is a kind of struggle.
Speaker: really, which defines the early period of Moroccan independence. Between um the monarchy... which which the French have kind of refashioned under colonialism since 2019. 12.
Speaker: Into very much an absolutist monarchy and actually you find that the monarchy kind of quite likes these trappings of power and the struggle that emerges is one between the the the the party that still exists, Istiklal, which was the kind of independence party.
Speaker: and the monarchy and really the the cut crux of the matter is who has the real power Is it the monarchy? Or is it going to be a constitutional monarchy where the where the power is that resides with the with the parliament?
Speaker: And I think that that is a duel which the monarchy wins. i mean Mohammed V dies in 1961. He's succeeded by his son, Hassan II. And Hassan II is really, really hard and ruthless.
Speaker: in terms of maintaining monarchical power. But in that balance... He ensures that the monarchy always has the upper hand. Where that is really challenged is in 2011.
Speaker: that as part of the Arab revolutions across the region There is a movement in Morocco. called the 20th of February Movement. So it's a kind of series of demonstrations across the country that come together on on the 20th of February.
Speaker: and they really demand a constitutional monarchy. And the king does respond. i mean People. Some people think he doesn't go far enough. but he kind of um unveils a blueprint for something that it could be argued tips the favour more into the favour of the Parliament.
Speaker: and that is then legitimized or voted for for by by by by a referendum. But I think that that issue has really kind of like continued.
Speaker: and the reason it's continued is that many of the you know the political parties that take power are seen to be In. Mohammed VI kind of like pocket. or they're deeply implicated in in kind of like monarchical power.
Speaker: So... um There are still a huge amount of grey areas that are that are still there. I think that's what really a lot of the... a lot of the um the demonstrations.
Speaker: or discontent in Morocco. are ah ah ah are around that. So in a way it's a kind of unfulfilled or unresolved issue since independence, which is where does the real power...
Speaker: kind of lie within Morocco. and to what extent is it a kind of genuinely transparent kind of process Hmm. And looking to... the prime minister as now el mansouri who is the first female prime minister for morocco is Is it a similar sentiment there, Martin, or does this show a break from previous prime ministers? well the the government that existed so
Speaker: Essentially what you've got to remember is that is that what emerges... from um the impact of the Arab revolutions in Morocco. is there's a new constitution. But interestingly enough,
Speaker: It's actually a moderate Islamist Party comes to power. in elections in in 2011 the pjd part of pjd party And um that's an attempt really...
Speaker: by the the monarchy. to sort of include Islamists or an Islamist party. within um ah ah within the system. So it's very, very different in 1992.
Speaker: You'd had elections in Algeria where Islamists were poised too to win and they actually the army had intervened. So this was seen as something that was a democratic experiment, very, very important across the region.
Speaker: BJD party They're re -elected again in 2016. But they're actually compromised and they're compromised by two. And this really shows where power lies.
Speaker: Because the issue a major issue in in Morocco is the issue of the Western Sahara, which, of course, Morocco in the Green March um attempted to incorporate into Morocco in 1975.
Speaker: And in 2020, with the it was the last vestiges of the kind of first trump administration There's a so -called Abraham Accords that in respect in in exchange...
Speaker: for normalization of relations between Morocco and Israel. ah Israel and the United States will will recognize. ah Morocco's plan solution. for the Western Sahara, which is a form of kind of internal autonomy.
Speaker: And I think those explains why actually in 2021, Also, the after effect of COVID, which was very, very kind of stringent and authoritarian in Morocco.
Speaker: The PJT party. or ousted. And what it is replaced with is with a coalition. of the Independent Party, the the party of modernity and authenticity that was established very close to the monarchy in 2008 and then the old istiklal party from that was part of the the k leaders of the independence movement So what's interesting about the the election is that actually...
Speaker: What has emerged is that the... the the the um Yeah, one of the ruling coalition polities. was a winner at the election. so the question it begs is is this just a reshuffling of the part that actually the sort of um
Speaker: ah we're not seeing a kind of like genuine, genuine change. Having said that, I think that obviously it's significant that El Mansouri is a woman. And I think that that would have been something that has been very, very important for... Mohammed VI is to see himself as somebody who has promoted women's rights. sort of through a series of kind of government legislation. So I think that would have been seen to be important for him.
Speaker: to point But she's also somebody that is that has made her reputation as the mayor of Marrakesh. Mayor of Marrakesh. and also somebody who in the campaign talked about you know the big challenge from rock at the moment is the disenfranchisement of of large numbers of of young people who are very, very educated.
Speaker: But also in particular, because of the role, I mean, it's a cliche to say it, but the role of the internet. This is a very, very highly educated population. that is also very, very aware.
Speaker: of comparing Morocco with elsewhere in the world. uh also you've got the imports of the moroccan diaspora and that's something that also fuels dissatisfaction now she's claimed that she wants her new government to create a million jobs for young people. But of course, that's just exactly what the last government claimed. So it's the question is is whether it will actually...
Speaker: deliver on these promises because i think as we've seen with the crisis around uh you know sayuta is is that actually ah Yeah, there's a huge amount of of of of discontent within within Moroccan society.
Speaker: Hmm. And... How did the suits... crisis because we have to talk about it it. How does that kind of frame the election? Well, I think that was a real symptom.
Speaker: of um dissatisfaction and i think that It's important to remember it it's not new in Morocco, actually. um Morocco is is a kind of transit country for large numbers of people from Africa that are trying to make it to um to ah ah to Europe.
Speaker: But also what is clear is there are also large numbers of Moroccans that are trying to leave as well. And obviously, I suppose that's not really a good judgment on. on the state of moroccan society if so many of your young people want to leave that shows that they feel that their future isn't really secure in in Morocco. I think what was dramatic about CO2 was just...
Speaker: and it really underlined the power of the internet that suddenly there were these rumors that um that rules have been relaxed. in terms of migration to Spain.
Speaker: And suddenly... on the basis of of of of a set of rumors that were spread through instagram and through facebook you suddenly had thousands of moroccans that were literally making it towards saudi because they thought that they could that they that they could make it. I mean, inevitably, these are always, it it tends to be younger people.
Speaker: that that feel under 30, that feel that if they leave Morocco, they can make their future in. in Europe particularly economically. but that creates a huge amount of of pressure. There's also Yeah, there was also the argument that's been that's been peddled.
Speaker: that this was a kind of moment of crisis between sort of Spain and Morocco in terms of Spain being more conciliatory towards Algeria. and on ah on a raft of issues. And in the past, Spain has often accused Morocco of of kind of creating a migration crisis by kind of turning them looking the other way.
Speaker: as migrants are trying to leave. So it's the idea of also migration being used. as a kind of a political pressure point but i mean it's a very serious crisis which which kind of blew up suddenly from nowhere but I think was a real symptom.
Speaker: of an underlying malaise within Moroccan society. Now, Al Mansouri has said that she will try to deal with this. um uh and i suppose that is is It's going to be a major issue. I mean, the other thing that obviously needs to be underlined, as you've already said earlier in the in the podcast.
Speaker: is that in 2030, Morocco will be one of the hosts of the of the World Cup, along with Spain and with Portugal. And this is very much seen as a government... This will be there.
Speaker: mission. to deliver that World Cup as a kind of showcase of Moroccan power. The question is... as we saw with the gen z last year is that this will throw up. a whole series of issues for people. A huge amount of money is being thrown at the World Cup for 2030.
Speaker: to what extent it is actually benefiting people that's what people will ask. Hmm. I'm thinking about the next steps for Manzori now. because she's won the election but she needs still needs to find the coalition what How is she going to create... coalition and who with and What effect could that have on her ability to try and improve the lives of young people and create a million jobs, as she says?
Speaker: I mean, that's a really good question. I think that, you know, there will be people within the Istiklal party and within the independent party that will be willing to to work with us. So the sense in which it will be.
Speaker: a kind of reworking. um of the kind of coalition government that was in power since 2021. i mean i think the other story of the election that we do know until light is the return of the islamists that were kind of wiped out in 2021 but they made a significant return And they've promised to be a kind of vocal kind of opposition.
Speaker: Um, But I think that the real problem that she's got is that although that she's been elected. I think that she's very, very aware of of the of the of the low turnout.
Speaker: and ah the low turnout in particular amongst young people. And that somehow... Her government's got to find a way of reconnecting. with that younger society and giving them a vision for the future. I think that's what the SOTA crisis really revealed.
Speaker: is that in terms of people's futures, their economic futures. their thinking that at the moment, you know, Morocco is very much for large numbers of people at a blocked society. so the question that she's got to really answer is how does she create the employment for younger people that were really kind of produce a situation where younger people reconnect.
Speaker: with moroccan society if not you will continue with this unstable stable situation And... i mean if we're really going into the specifics here martin where are these jobs coming from what kind of sector because at the start you mentioned that morocco is the biggest car manufacturer in Africa now.
Speaker: They also produce plane parts. They have a massive production of solar. And... This is what we look at Morocco when we think about kind of four point.
Speaker: four percent growth as a real emerging and successful manufacturing. company. with not company nation. Is that where the jobs are going to be? Well, I think that's the really big question. I mean, where...
Speaker: Muhammad VI. who came to on the throne in 1999 has put a big emphasis is on tourism. So the idea that now I think...
Speaker: Morocco has replaced Egypt as the kind of it's become the number one tourist destination. in Africa. um and the Ryanair flights, EasyJet flights, probably fall for large numbers of British people.
Speaker: this is the country that they've been to in middle east and north africa so the importance of tourism to in particular places like Marrakesh and Agadir. and in particular different types of tourism, the Agadir,
Speaker: you know, a kind of a more package holiday mass tourism. but also the importance of cultural tourism. You've had music festivals, for example, across Morocco that are attracting a certain type of of tourist.
Speaker: I think the other thing that needs to be underlined is the way in which really the Moroccan economy... has been opened up. to to um yeah neoliberalism, so that you've had foreign kind companies that have come from from France and from Spain.
Speaker: um you know that sort of french car makers for example persia and renault very very important in Morocco and it's the idea that that that it's through Really making sure that Morocco is part of ah the world global economy.
Speaker: that it's going to benefit if efficient you know it's going to it's goingnna it's going to benefit um ah Moroccan society as a whole. What? That always begs.
Speaker: is obviously the extent to which that money trickles down to the ordinary population. I think that's the thing that you've got to really ask. so I think that the way in which the Moroccan economy has been opened up to the global economy over the last really 30 years.
Speaker: There have been people that have been huge winners from that process. There have been huge wins at that process. You know, people that have become. to the millionaires. But against that...
Speaker: we still have this problem that there are still not enough Moroccans that seem to be seem to be benefiting from ah from from that So I think that's the question really.
Speaker: It's the quality of the jobs. that are being that ah that are being that are being produced. and the question really about about wealth inequality within Morocco, which of course is a global issue, but I think it's particularly pronounced in Morocco.
Speaker: Hmm. And earlier in the podcast, you mentioned that. it's not it's not just jobs that young people are having issues with that about freedom of expression I wonder if you can kind of give us a sense, because that's not something that I i saw in the research for this podcast.
Speaker: Well, I think the... the the the The important thing to to to remember is is that Hassan II comes to power in 1961 and one of the things that he did there very very clearly was that he made a choice over the Cold War. He took Morocco into a pro -Western camp and that within the Middle East and North Africa, Morocco became known as one of the closest allies.
Speaker: really the West in terms of the of the of the Cold War. He was challenged. during the 1960s and 1970s by a very very strong and burgeoning left -wing movement within within Morocco.
Speaker: and which was repressed. I mean, there was there were huge kind of... um human rights abuses within within within Morocco. Hassan was also confronted with at least two military coups one in 71 72 that attempted to to overthrow him It means that within within Moroccan history, those years of the 16th and 17th really became known as the years of lead.
Speaker: where large numbers of people disappeared. ah there were suspensions of Parliament, there was censorship of of of the press. people were tortured. When Muhammad the sith came to power in 1999. He made a big play of the fact that that that that Morocco is going to be transformed. This is something that already happened that during the 1990s.
Speaker: a Hassan Saw. the way in which the world was changing with the end of the Cold War, made a real commitment to to him to to democratic rights and freedom of expression. and ah in 1998 there was actually a left -wing government that came to power.
Speaker: So there's a kind of sense in which, um ah ah but in particular under Muhammad VI, a kind of sense of change, and he actually instigated truth and reconciliation process.
Speaker: over the kind of years of of lead, which was an attempt to really move Morocco forward. and to say that Morocco has now changed with with um with freedom of expression. Now.
Speaker: I think that what many people have argued... is that in particular with the repression of the hirak movement in the reef the imprisonment of certain journalists that are critical.
Speaker: of the Mamoku regime. People have talked about the idea, particularly from the authoritarianism that was clear under under and under COVID. that that there's been a kind of return.
Speaker: of a kind of authoritarian um ah of power structures and and I think for a lot of people in particular, a number of people that the that from the reef, that they they just didn't leave for economic reasons.
Speaker: They also left. for political reasons, the sense that sort of the... uh movement and was was ah ah ah was was repressed. I think actually...
Speaker: you know issues around freedom of expression have become an issue within Morocco as well. Hmm. And most incoming... to the end of our fascinating conversation where we've kind of It talks about all aspects, not only of the election, but also as kind of...
Speaker: what Morocco is now and what how it's changed. I think something that's so interesting when I look at our conversation about Algeria, maybe two months ago now. is... We're going back to it, but the issue of turnout.
Speaker: And Algeria had a turnout of around 20%. And we recently... um produced an episode about the Zambian election where there was also very low turnout.
Speaker: And now we see in Morocco, not only 38%, but the lowest in two decades, really, really is a striking statistic. Is this a regional pattern?
Speaker: And... Looking forward. kind of not just Morocco but about Northern Africa in general. where do we see democracy going? And where do we see the trust and...
Speaker: engagement with elections. I think that's a really interesting question. I think here... Yeah. One thing I would go back to.
Speaker: is that that in Algeria you have... Yeah, there are large scale kind of like riots against the system that take place in. In October 1988, with a kind of dissatisfaction with the one -party system. and and What that does is that leads to the emergence of a multiparty system.
Speaker: Hmm. it's interesting enough Given that this was at the moment of the end of the Cold War, this was really welcomed by Hassan II. Hassan II said that this showed that Morocco had made the right choices during the Cold War, that it had always engaged in it in a kind of multi -party democracy when so many countries...
Speaker: in the Global South had gone down the path of one -party states. And Hassan was very, very disappointed when... the elections were suspended in 1992. uh by the army and then it took some years really for that multi -party system to be kind of relaunched within within within Algeria. so algeria's kind of story of kind of socialism of of kind of revolutionary solidarity and third worldism
Speaker: versus Morocco's story of of of a kind of... but authoritarian, monarchical regime that was part of the Western camp. So those are two different trajectories which were opposed in so many ways. But what's interesting in terms of 2026?
Speaker: is that both systems are really... suffering from the same problems. which is actually large numbers of young people. Do not. feel any identification with the system there's actually a huge kind of anti -system sort of like feeling It's slightly different in Morocco because I don't think it goes to the extent to which people want to challenge and overthrow the monarchy.
Speaker: But nevertheless, there's a dissatisfaction. with the kind of levels of of sort of democracy and and and what democracy sort of like feels, it means to people. How can they actually change their lives? And what's the point of becoming involved in?
Speaker: in a kind of democratic process. So I think it's very striking that in both countries, you've got large numbers of young people that very that feel very cynical. about the systems that they live under.
Speaker: that feel very disenfranchised from these systems. And essentially, they see politics or the political systems as not really being something that's part of their daily lives and their daily lives are about kind of sort of getting by about kind of economics and about kind of advancing uh socially and that in some ways kind of you know politics doesn't facilitate that
Speaker: it's it's kind of a hindrance or a blockage to it. And I think that's interesting that these two systems... have basically seemed to, from the point of view of 2026, arrived at the same result or very similar results.
Speaker: Hmm. go It's absolutely fascinating, Martin, kind of seeing the links. looking kind of like zooming out and just looking at Africa. Um, that's all we have time for thank you very much for coming on again it's it's always great to have you on Thanks a lot.
Speaker: Brilliant. Brilliant. yeah Very, very enjoyable. Thanks a lot. You can listen to the podcast across all your major streaming apps. I've been your host Joshua Paisley and thank you for listening.
