Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome back. to the Democracy Volunteers podcast series, How to Increase Turnout. In this series, we invite guests from across the world to discuss their unique solutions to the problem of decreasing turnout. Today, we will explore overseas voting, and there is no better guest than Dr. Timothy Veal.
Speaker: Timothy launched Grits Abroad, an organization that aims to improve turnout in elections and political participation for Canadian non - residents. Canada has around 4 million non -resident citizens who are eligible to vote. This increase was confirmed after the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2019 the right of all eligible Canadian citizens to vote in federal elections regardless. of their residency status.
Speaker: In the UK we have mirrored these kinds of rulings. The Government's Election Act of 2022 removed the 15 -year limit on voting rights for British citizens. living overseas.
Speaker: Timothy, it's great to have you onto the podcast. I'm hoping that from our conversation, we can kind of shed light on what. we need to do for overseas voters and maybe some kind of new and exciting ideas which i don't know countries such as portugal we talked about earlier about kind of extraterrestrial constituencies may be offers. Timothy, how are you getting on?
Speaker: I'm doing great, Josh. First of all, thank you for having me on the show. It's a real honor to be here and I look forward to discussing these really important topics with you. Yeah. So Grits Abroad is...
Speaker: feels very of its time because of the kind of increase in franchisement for overseas voting. I'm wondering why does Grits Abroad do what it does? Okay. Well, it goes back to a period of time in late 2024 when um our...
Speaker: government led by then prime minister justin trudeau looked like it was going to go through a ah massive... massive change. He was about to step down. And I was.
Speaker: thinking that as a lifetime provincial and federal ah voter, uh supporter of the the the liberal party both in provincial and and federal terms um I thought that the party was going. going to start a Let's call it a rebuild.
Speaker: And as somebody who's been living abroad for close to 30 years, um With the substantial noise that was coming from south of the border in the current administration talking about ah this 51st state talk.
Speaker: I didn't want to be a a bystander. I wanted to to reach out and find people who were feeling the way I was with the values that... they might share with me and figure out if there's something that we could, I could be part of in ah despite the distance.
Speaker: away from from Canada, and I didn't find it. um I discovered our other parties were doing things for their non -residents. abroad and um the Liberal Party of Canada did not. And so I thought, well, I guess I better just start one.
Speaker: And Grits being the the nickname of Liberal supporters, Liberal Party supporters going back many, many decades. Uh, so broad was born in January 25. and uh The party subsequently went through a...
Speaker: Leadership. review to not review leadership convention to appoint its its new uh leader and It was at that point that the noise coming from the current American administration was getting ah louder and louder. and I wanted to...
Speaker: ah establish a group that would work across the aisle. in ah but a bipartisan manner to work with anybody willing. um so that we could Prepare for the coming April vote. That was April 2025.
Speaker: to get as many people voting. because part of the problem as i saw it was in learning about the previous federal election, which at that time had been in 2021. less than 1 % of the eligible electorate actually participated in the election that year.
Speaker: Now, why did that happen? and Part of the reason was because less than two years prior to that in 2019, the Canadian non -resident electorate had only been restored its right to vote.
Speaker: So that's one of the reasons why the... the turnout was so low but Far from the only reason. So. I wanted to see if we could get that vote.
Speaker: um turnout up. And, um So I made some efforts to reach across the aisle. ah with peer groups like our own from other parties.
Speaker: and see if we could work together to get the votes up. ah regardless of who our fellow non -residents voted for. So our take has been country before party. And.
Speaker: That's essentially the reason why Grits Abroad was formed back then. And in the 2025... federal election, were you able to increase the turnout from what you said was less than 1 % for Canadian overseas voters?
Speaker: Well, I like to think that we made some difference, but ah the good news is that it doubled. Albeit from a a low amount. So the turnout in 2021 had been 0 .9 % and it doubled to 1 .8%.
Speaker: Hmm. From one low amount to a a larger... low amount. What we're aspiring to be part of is to try to continue the doubling of that process. So you know it's 1 .8. There has to be an election by 2029. We'd like to see that. double again to 3 .6.
Speaker: That's still low. That's still, in my mind, unacceptable, but it does represent progress. If we can have it continue to double over successive elections. Um, over the next several cycles, I think we can get it up to a more acceptable level.
Speaker: That is our aspiration. I'm not going to say that we at Grits Abroad had A whole lot to do with its increase or its doubling to 1 .8%. But I think we're part of.
Speaker: an increased number of people who have been interested. Um, since the last election. Yeah. And Tim, this this kind of begs the question. I mean, it's it's a big question, but what why aren't Canadians, overseas Canadians voting? Why why aren't they seeing the 2019 ruling and thinking, that's fantastic. I can vote. I'm going to go and sign up, get my postal vote or however they vote.
Speaker: Why aren't we seeing kind of... Bastardo. It's a great question. It's one that to I and my colleagues at Grits Abroad, we have asked ourselves. um You know, democracy works when people participate in it and when we take it for granted. and but and and Take it for granted in one way or another. um I think danger danger looms.
Speaker: And so that's one of the real concerns that that we have. One of the reasons why I think turnout was so low is simply because the message didn't get out. um People living abroad just... Simply... didn't know.
Speaker: And part of the fact is that I think our. our long established uh political parties they didn't seize the opportunity to chase the overseas vote.
Speaker: One of the reasons why I think is structural. The fact is that we do not have extra. territorial. Um, writings. unlike some countries like france and portugal as you mentioned and and italy you know if we did the nominees.
Speaker: seeking election from those writings. would get out and court our vote. So part of the problem is the fact, and I and i i spoke to this at... at a parliamentary committee ah testifying.
Speaker: that no one wants. from a Any of the major federal parties, let alone minor federal parties, I don't think anybody courted our vote ever to any. our meaning non -resident i don't think any of them have ever reached out historically. to court our vote and i think that's part of the problem part of the reason why they don't is because there hasn't traditionally been that incentive.
Speaker: So this is something we're trying to change with through our efforts with Grits Abroad. we're trying to let candidates know we're here and we have a lot of voting power. We have a lot of voting power if you put it together.
Speaker: um nearly 4 million eligible voters. constituent becomes part of the equivalent of the fifth largest province in Canada.
Speaker: Um, So. We represent a voter -rich constituency. and I think. raising people's awareness as part of the job that we're trying to deliver.
Speaker: Yeah, but I got to say, kind of in my research for Canadian overseas voters and as well looking at the Elections Act, which kind of removed the 15 year limit, it's always amazed me that political parties haven't kind of tried to mobilise this vote.
Speaker: it It seems like almost an open goal in a way, where if you prove improve the voting methods... um there's such a flood of new voters who could actually kind of really change things for you in an election. Looking at kind of the nitty gritty of.
Speaker: what it's like to... vote as an overseas citizen, I'm sure. some aspects of the small turnout will be due to maybe it's harder to vote. So how to yeah how do you vote as a Canadian overseas voter?
Speaker: Yeah, that's part of the complication. you know Elections Canada is the agency responsible for administering the elections both. at home and abroad. and I want to commend them for so many things. they they They do a great job under shifting circumstances.
Speaker: That said, when I had the opportunity to testify to the parliamentary committee, A series of recommendations came with ah came from us. to to say you know um There's other ways to conduct elections, you know, you look at At Estonia, I listened to your your podcast about Estonia, and I had mentioned it at that time when I was testifying, you know, they they do it electronically.
Speaker: um in Some states ah in the USA, I know that... eligible voters can download and print their own ballot at home.
Speaker: And then they return it um themselves. at a designated spot um As Canadians, we can't do either of those things. So we presented a number of different possibilities. Those were two examples that we shared. and um We think that... if There are. new ways to find solutions to old problems.
Speaker: that elections Canada can facilitate. um making it easier to vote. For example, some Canadian embassies or consulates. High commissions will.
Speaker: ah receive willingly. a ballot and pass it on in their postal pouch and send it back to Ottawa for you so it gets there faster. um Many won't do that.
Speaker: So part of the challenge that The questions that... that that I've asked is, can you standardize this? you know if if If some can, why can't all do it? Embassies, that is.
Speaker: Part of the challenge, too, is, you know, with somewhere around 200 different national postal systems around the world, one postal system for every country in the world, Canadians are living in every country. and It's not realistic to expect.
Speaker: When... An election can be called and it has to be a minimum of 36 days. And as far as I recall, both of the last elections have been only 36 days. It's not realistic to expect that.
Speaker: um given the around 200 different national postal systems that they can all be equally efficient or effective in returning A Ballad on Time. So...
Speaker: This is something that um speaks to the challenges that non -residents face, that there's all these different impediments in the way You know, and plus you have to register early. um And if you register early and it's approved. Then they'll send the ballot. You got to wait for that.
Speaker: And then. When the election is called, you might have as little as 36. days to get it back. I did everything right. I registered early in January. 25.
Speaker: And by the time the election was called months later and was held. in April. It was only a week before. the election was due to be held the election day that I received my ballot.
Speaker: And I sent it off to go back to Ottawa. I have no way of knowing if my ballot was actually counted. and i did everything right i did everything early so this is part of the challenge you know i i have no idea if my belt was was counted and So I've had a deep dive into the the numbers. for non -resident voters from the 2025 election.
Speaker: And it turns out that 100 ,000 people like myself registered. Um, to to vote. But. Just under 60 ,000. I think it was about 58 ,000 of those. ballots.
Speaker: were received. Hmm. So. whether they were They were received and counted. So whether it was a combination of spoiled ballots, which I think would probably not be a very high percentage.
Speaker: or it was ones that were returned but weren't counted in time. whatever the case may be. uh it's it's it's an It's a problem that needs to be solved. um because 100 ,000 attempted voters and only 58 % are counting. um That doesn't happen when you vote in person. The... the Hmm. the success rate would never be that low.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's interesting what you say about the clarity of actually knowing that your vote has been counted. That's something which actually kind of... I've never really heard that as ah a real concern but it makes a lot of sense if you could create a mechanism by which people know what's actually happened to their vote so Looking...
Speaker: Now looking at all the issues. looking at the solutions do you look at extra territorial seats which for our listeners who maybe don't know these are basically seats reserved for non -residents and they have a standing in parliament it's almost like creating an overseas constituency um in UK terms.
Speaker: Do you look at that solution as kind of... something which you're really pushing for and something which you feel there's an appetite for. ah I don't think there's a great appetite for it. In fact, I know there isn't a great appetite for it. I think in today's political climate. um it's It's nothing that's going to happen in the short term.
Speaker: Let's be honest, if it were even going to happen at all. But, you know, my... my my Fellow members. and I at Grits Abroad, were we're thinking about the long term here, you know. um We're going through a phase, I think, geopolitically where the forces of anti -globalization forces are are are, maybe they're not.
Speaker: On the ascendant, maybe they've ascended. Let's see if they continue to. to climb or or retract. I don't know, but you know, everything goes in cycles. So there'll be a period of time when when globalization It continues the way it had been, I suppose, for for some time. and One of the concerns I have about continued globalization is that the non -resident class of citizens around the world is only going to continue to climb.
Speaker: one way or the other. the number of people living of expatriates living outside of their country. or immigrants, depend depending on any any term a person wants to use. As that process continues,
Speaker: That's going to increase the number of people who experience disenfranchisement. I don't think it's... healthy. Certainly in the Western democratic tradition, if...
Speaker: Citizens. are increasingly disenfranchised simply because of where they choose to live. Now, as... Thankfully, the Supreme Court and Canada re -established in 2019 it doesn't matter where you live it doesn't matter whether you pay all the exact same taxes as a resident would.
Speaker: If you are a Canadian, Citizenship confers the right to vote. um But as we're seeing. citizen Politicians are not seeking our votes. and and it's To some extent, it's...
Speaker: to a great extent, I would argue it's Also because we don't have the same kind of... political representation in parliament in our parliament that residents do. There's obvious reasons for that.
Speaker: But it doesn't mean that we can't be having this conversation in my mind. abode. how we can engage Canadians, no matter where they put their head on a pillow at night. weapon. Where in the world? um where there are Canadians, there are Canadians. and um we are affected by the decisions made by parliament you know um the fact that the the clearest fact is that uh A...
Speaker: The government administration in the past decided that we were we no longer had the right to the franchise. We were. disenfranchised. well So in my mind, obviously we need the right to vote. if That kind of decision is at at play here.
Speaker: Um, one way to counter the risk of that happening again. one way or the other in the future is to consider the idea of extraterritorial seats.
Speaker: the way other peer Western countries do, like those named. Mm -hmm. you mentioned there the Supreme Court ruling about enfranchising all...
Speaker: overseas Canadian citizens. citizens and that's That's only limited to federal elections. Is that right, though? Correct. Correct. it's only it's not It's not provincial, it's not municipal.
Speaker: It's only federal. And also kind of... So really interesting there, Timothy, where you're talking about kind of a rise in people moving abroad and the increase in non -resident citizens. And so the maybe the increase in disfranchisement. What we're seeing in the US, for example,
Speaker: is Trump's attempt to restrict postal voting ahead of the midterms, which was the Supreme Court ruled against. Is there? Is there similar discussion around election?
Speaker: kind of the ways in which people vote in Canada or is that kind of criticism or backlash towards overseas voters kind of becoming more enfranchised. No, you know, I've seen on some chat boards, there's been isolated incidents of individuals.
Speaker: expressing some dissatisfaction. about the idea that non -residents like myself can vote. um But it's it's not thematic. It's not widespread.
Speaker: Um, probably because we vote in such large low numbers at this point. I would suppose at If... if And when those numbers increase to the extent that I'm seeking, I suppose.
Speaker: I know we will expect the... I think inevitably be some pushback, but it's not happening right now because the numbers I think are just too too low. um As far as... some of the raised matters from the United States. in the in the current administration there.
Speaker: some of those topics Yeah, it once in a while they get parroted a little bit by like -minded. um political actors but It's even not that much. so um people who might be politically aligned with with with ah the Trump administration's approaches and values.
Speaker: you know for for the people who who do. align that way in Canada. Yeah, it's I think it's been mentioned a little bit. you know the questions about male mail -in ballots and stuff like that, but it doesn't get... doesn't tend to get repeated once it has been said.
Speaker: Mmm. in my observations I'm looking at It's a board, it's... trying to achieve. how How do you guys actually kind of reach out to all these overseas citizens? You said there's around 4 million. And I mean, there's a lot of people to get voting there. But kind of this is quite a daunting challenge that you've that you've embarked on, Timothy. How do you do it?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a really daunting challenge. you know One of the things I thought about ah before starting Grits Abroad was maybe i should Maybe it'd be better if I took a... non -partisan approach.
Speaker: Rather than a partisan approach but When I did some research, And I found there was three, four, maybe five different. non -partisan groups. who are making a concerted good faith effort to try to increase The...
Speaker: He... political participation of non -resident electorate. Um, It didn't seem, you know, despite all their hard work. and well -intentioned efforts, the fact that, you know, that that first election never got above 0 .9%. turn out and the last one never not larger than 1 .8 it kind of made me reflect on the fact that
Speaker: maybe Maybe there's more of a return on the investment if a partisan approach is taken. And the fact that nobody... was doing for the Liberal Party of Canada. um What I was seeking that made me think, well, you know, what that's probably maybe a better hand better hand to play because.
Speaker: Um, That was the rationale. you know, at at the time. and How do we find them now? Well, We have a committed base of people who are who are like -minded in... Trying.
Speaker: Right now, we're at the stage where we're just trying a lot. different different, different everything really, you know, a lot of different everything, whatever works. So we have, so we have some social media presence. We have um, sub stack.
Speaker: Seems to be a growing... uh use in recent months by people we've had uh i i've i guess written an article in uh The Hill Times, a Canadian political newspaper.
Speaker: um We've had the Canadian press cover us. And then. Their article got on the wire and that had a... a really helpful approach to getting more people interested in what we're doing.
Speaker: um Word of mouth has been a little bit about it. has helped to some extent. And right now. were in the process of throwing spaghetti at spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks and and just repeating what seems to get success. and trying to learn from what that doesn't you know it's it's it's hard it's slow it takes time but um yeah We have also been reaching out to ah People with...
Speaker: you know, special interest in what we're doing. um to try to you know they're influencing we're trying to influence and so we're influencers working together um whether they're directly within politics or outside of politics. And like I say, you know, those who are inside politics.
Speaker: Some of them are elected officials. Some are within the party. um I have to admit, people who are elected are more. open to the discussion than anybody else in the the elected politicians see the I think they see the value of what we can offer with some organization. And that's really the challenge is just getting better organized because we haven't inherited.
Speaker: any precedent. uh or prior way of doing this before we're we're having to build it from scratch so it also makes it exciting Yeah. And coming towards the end of our conversation now, Timothy, which has been a fantastic kind of insight into Canadian politics, but also. kind of,
Speaker: You can resonate a lot with this with UK politics at the time. What you've just talked about there is kind of how elected politicians are maybe more willing to discuss. or maybe see the potential a little bit more.
Speaker: Because that touches on my last question, kind of. How do you think... when and if you are successful. in kind of increasing participation and increasing turnout for canadian overseas citizens How do you think this can change Canadian politics and the way politicians act, for example?
Speaker: Well, as you may be aware um In Canada, I think, including a lot of countries, and and I would assume the UK as well, from what I understand, we're in a process of... continuing the development of our country and in ways that we never thought would be necessary um a few short years ago.
Speaker: you know, the the geopolitical landscape has changed. And that means that we have to change with it. And and it's not business as usual anymore. And so we have to. be really um really mindful about. what that means and what that can mean for the country and for us as as citizens.
Speaker: Ex -Patriots. immigrants. both um either or we we we have experiences that can offer great value to um to to the country that we're...
Speaker: representing whether you know immigrants living in Canada or expatriates like myself, long -term expatriates. Um, the The number of people I've met through this project has just stunned me about you know the level of...
Speaker: Skill. my fellow Canadians abroad have the level of skill. um the experiences that they have, the qualifications. their networks. Um,
Speaker: the The longer people have been living abroad, the more capital, social capital, financial capital. uh other kinds that they built and Though... Those are resources that the the government that resident Canadians can can can lean on.
Speaker: um Often in Canada, the talk is about brain drain. and lost Canadians who have left the country and and don't come back. But I think rather than thinking but that way, there's a notion that's going around in the the circles I read about it, but rather than brain drain. they should be thinking more about um resource circulation.
Speaker: you know, um, We all have resources and as Canada is. building itself stronger. right now. um we can be part of that. um Portugal has a fascinating model in place right now where they are trying to repatriate the investment capital of its expatriate citizens through these novel tax regimes.
Speaker: Um, So in an era... A political era when people are. putting their country first. you know, if if somebody wants to think that way, well, maybe they want to then consider the idea of what they can do to attract.
Speaker: the the resources of the citizens of their country who happen to live abroad. you know um You can still live abroad and support your country. If you want to think creatively about it, um we're challenged to think in a bit of a binary way right now. You're either putting your country first and you only live in your country or.
Speaker: You don't. Um, and And I think there's other ways to. achieve success. And I think that citizens abroad we We can... help deliver that.
Speaker: strengthening of our country without actually even living there if our politicians And if our citizens are citizenry... who are resident there are open to it. And I i believe that a lot of good can come from it.
Speaker: If... if we have these conversations. And and i and I think... the conversation having is part of it, you know? So. whether it's expatriate. um British citizens. um Canadians or from any country. it's a It's a model that I think can be replicated.
Speaker: and is not only a good fit just for... for Canada. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. That was absolutely fascinating. And even that kind of end ending statement, it felt like um kind of quite a motivating feel to get canadians Canadians voting. Thank you so much, Tim. Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks, Josh. Appreciate it.
Speaker: You can listen to the Democracy Volunteers podcast across all your streaming apps. I've been your host, Joshua Paisley. And thank you very much.
