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Immcon / Matthew Brown Part 3: Analysis
85 Plays21 days ago
In which I critique the Immaculate Constellation / Matthew Brown story by Corbell & Knapp.
UFOFocusPodcast@proton.me
Outro: "Starman" (cover, David Bowie) by OCD
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'UFO Focus' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome everyone back to UFO Focus. I'm your host Isaiah and with me on my chest in a backpack is my sleeping right now baby girl.
00:00:14
Speaker
So you might, if you especially if you listen closely, hear a little peep from her now and then. We'll see how that goes. But anyway, yes, welcome back. I'm so glad to have you.
Series Overview: Immaculate Constellation & Matthew Brown
00:00:26
Speaker
And here we are at the third part of my three-part series on the alleged program called Immaculate Constellation, and the self-proclaimed Whistleblower.
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm sorry, self-proclaimed sounds so condescending, and I don't mean it that way. I just mean, i don't know. For who is it to say whether he is or is not a whistleblower? He is calling himself a whistleblower, and his name is Matthew Brown.
00:00:52
Speaker
There we go. So, part three of this series. This is the part where I give you my analysis. And I guess to give you the headline up front here, my analysis is going to be pretty harsh.
00:01:07
Speaker
um I don't think this guy is lying um operating in bad faith. I have respect for Corbell and Knapp, the journalists who broke this story, published this interview, and I sort of wish the best for everybody involved.
Analysis of Matthew Brown Interview
00:01:23
Speaker
But I think this interview is very problematic for... o I think this interview is very problematic for a number of reasons. And I think I haven't really seen a ton of pushback from within the sort of UFO community on this one.
00:01:40
Speaker
And look, that could be I'm not looking in the right place. so I don't know. But um I figured this is something I have to offer you listeners and the larger community if anyone's interested, my own two cents here. And so that's what I'm going to do.
00:01:55
Speaker
Throughout this little mini-series here, I've played a number of clips from the interview. that we're talking about itself so that you get to hear some of it for yourself.
00:02:07
Speaker
In the last episode, we focused on Matthew Brown's story as he related to Korbel and Knapp, and I used a few clips that I think did a decent job, I hope, of conveying some of the things he was trying to say um in a long interview that spanned, gosh, three hours or something.
Importance of Critical Analysis in UFO Narratives
00:02:28
Speaker
Now, did I pick the best quotes? Did I do the best job? Who knows? That's journalism. That's the craft of journalism. You do the best you can. And I'm bringing some of this up because we're going to be getting into a discussion about journalism again later in this podcast.
00:02:44
Speaker
And okay, one more thing I want to address, because frankly, it's been going through my mind. If my main takeaway from this whole interview, this whole story is a pretty critical one, why spend as much time and energy on it as I have done?
00:03:02
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I'm sort of asking myself the same thing. But also, I i think I have my reasons here. And those are the following. One, ah This has been treated as a pretty big deal story in the UFO community and coverage of what's going on with the UFO topic.
Illustrative Clip on UFO Sightings
00:03:22
Speaker
Okay. Two, I think it's important to talk about like how we think about these developments and, you know, all kinds of information coming in on this topic, right? Like what you think is less important than how are you think.
00:03:42
Speaker
And um I guess if nothing else, I'm trying to share how I think about this stuff and I welcome your comments and would love to know what you think.
00:03:53
Speaker
But so all that being said, what I'm trying to set up here is I'm going to play one more clip for you. It's just over four minutes long. And I'll tell you up front that um if you find yourself not following what's going on in the clip or Finding it disjointed.
00:04:12
Speaker
i did too. That's, you know, spoiler alert. That's part of what I have to critique here. But um try and stick with it. See what you pick up. Because, like I said, i i tried to...
00:04:24
Speaker
represent Matthew Brown in his own voice in the last episode, but this clip ah is going to represent a bunch of the critiques I have of this whole interview and the whole Matthew Brown story.
00:04:38
Speaker
So with that introduction, ah here we go. This is from the, yes, the third part of the interview released by Korbel and Knapp. Oh, and also just to set this up, um you're actually going to hear Korbel and Knapp first and for a bit, and then Matthew Brown comes in. So the first voice is Jeremy Corbell. The second voice is George Knapp.
00:04:59
Speaker
The third voice then is Matthew Brown. Yeah, some things we've seen have looked so bizarre, it makes no sense to my brain. um It is possible, I've heard that from a number of whistleblowers at different levels, that what you're seeing could just be a part of a greater structure, you know?
00:05:16
Speaker
um So it could be something like that, speculating. We had this so Chinese balloon thing that happened, three different objects, UFOs, three UFOs shot down in ah in a couple of week period.
00:05:29
Speaker
And then we heard we saw people use that, the usual people in the media world who bash this stuff, who tried to blame it on the UAP task force. The reason we're not, NORAD is not looking for something like this is because the UAP task force confused the whole situation.
00:05:45
Speaker
It's as if NORAD would only look for things that look like planes, bombers, or missiles. So we didn't look for UFOs. um Is it possible that we didn't look for UFOs because it didn't really want to find them? Or is it we were looking for UFOs, just the public and most of the government never saw?
00:06:04
Speaker
um We've always been seeing these things with things like radar. um So it's yeah part of standard operating procedures to to deny this and to not...
00:06:15
Speaker
ah acknowledge it. So we've been seeing it. We're just pretending not to see it. Absolutely. Our public institutions like the FAA or um similar in your even local context, it's ah not allowed to be discussed. And there might even be technical measures in our in the technology at this place that just prevents it from you even popping up on a screen. Right.
00:06:36
Speaker
You know, like Tic Tac. So that happened for two or three weeks. They could get a little glimpse of it on these systems, really sensitive, advanced Navy systems at the time.
00:06:47
Speaker
And then poof, it it fell off. At the USS Omaha, they had 12 or 14 of these things zipping in. You'd see them on the radar screen and then poof. If they didn't want to be seen, we weren't seeing them.
00:06:57
Speaker
I guess it could be that as part of an explanation. If they don't want to be detected on radar, they have ways to avoid radar, whoever they are. Yeah, that's a ah ah dangerous dynamic to have willful ignorance on our side um and their capability to at least attempt to evade detection at any time on theirs.
00:07:18
Speaker
um If we are so certain they are friendly, why is this a secret? um I have one more. Yeah. Drones. So 60 Minutes just did a big piece on drones. Langley Air Force Base had these things flying over it for 17 nights in a row. Stayed in New Jersey for weeks at a time.
00:07:34
Speaker
ah Sensitive bases, restricted airspace at U.S., U.K. bases in Britain through for days and days. We can't track these things coming in. We can't track them when they leave. We can't shoot them down.
00:07:48
Speaker
We don't know where they're from. but don't worry, they're just drones. They're foreign surveillance drones. Give me your take on that whole situation. Well, if you're a member of the public and you are still listening to CNN, and MSNBC, Fox News, or reading the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, all of that is controlled.
00:08:06
Speaker
It's propaganda. It is shaping your life narrative, intentionally so. ah As for the government reactions to that, I was very disappointed to see a continuation of the dismissal of these events by the Trump administration's ah press secretary.
00:08:25
Speaker
um I can guess why they decided, despite the campaign promise to immediately address that issue, to not. It has to do with geopolitical situations we are currently involved in and the fact that we are living through a constitutional crisis.
00:08:42
Speaker
ah relate to this issue. just seems to me that it is a worse thing to say these might be foreign surveillance drones and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. We don't we can't track them, we can't see them, we can't shoot them down than it is to say these are genuine unknowns.
00:08:57
Speaker
you know It seems like they're unknowns, not just something some drone that the Chinese are floating off off of New Jersey. There's an infection in our security thinking, which is that, you know We must, that they're primacists.
00:09:13
Speaker
They must be on top. To admit weakness is to admit defeat. And to say you don't know what something is, pretty big signal of weakness.
Critique of Interview's Structure and Content
00:09:22
Speaker
um There's not much humility and a lot of arrogance driving, I think, these responses more so than any strategy.
00:09:32
Speaker
Point number one, I think the interview... and the presentation of the interview. Excuse
00:09:43
Speaker
me. Maybe I'll take a break. Okay, I'm back. that was... um My baby daughter farted really loudly and it made me laugh. Anyway. All right. Critique number one.
00:09:54
Speaker
And you'll note that I forecast this critique in the first part of this little three-part series. And I'll repeat, as I said then, i like Korbel and Knapp.
00:10:05
Speaker
I'm rooting for them. I admire the work they put into this topic. I think they produce important journalism. And there's absolutely nothing personal about this.
00:10:17
Speaker
But also, you know, this topic is difficult enough, and I feel like if I'm going to contribute anything, I had at least better contribute my real thoughts, ah even if they're critical and they're they're not um exactly going to make me ah make me friends necessarily.
00:10:36
Speaker
So anyway, critique number one, this interview... This piece of journalism is, in my opinion, sloppy, disorganized, lacking in various respects.
00:10:50
Speaker
And frankly, I think that was apparent from the clip I played you, which is, you know, not some sort of anomaly in an otherwise really tight interview. No, the whole interview is like that. Like I said, when I started the series, I had no idea what was going on going into the first piece because there was no context.
00:11:09
Speaker
Well, at the end of the series, um I still had a ton of questions And when it comes to the questions ah that Korbel and Knapp put to Matthew Brown in the interview, well, I mean, those questions were often or often enough to be a real problem, at least for me, incoherent, off point, or not even questions.
00:11:33
Speaker
Meanwhile, here's a question that I have about this whole story that Korbel and Knapp could have asked and did not. Does Matthew Brown believe what he saw, these UFO videos, the the stuff he was exposed to, represented represents non-human intelligence or proof of non-human intelligence visiting Earth or even strong evidence that we're talking about non-human intelligence?
00:12:02
Speaker
ah aka aliens. So wait, does he think that it's aliens? What does he think it is? And the question is never asked directly. i I mean, look, I listened to this interview, three hours almost of this interview, and I believe I've listened to the entire thing twice over now. So let's do the math. That equals approximately 600 billion hours of podcast listening.
00:12:28
Speaker
um Just kidding. ah But as far as I can tell, literally the closest thing to an answer, well, the closest thing to the question being put to him and the closest thing to an answer we get is the following.
00:12:44
Speaker
What is it like to have absolute knowledge that not only UFOs are ah real, that we've been hiding that, that our government has controlled that information away from human, the the base human population, um and that there is another intelligence that is engaging in humanity straight up.
00:13:08
Speaker
what What does that feel like being one of the people that knows that and doesn't suspect that? It's weird going to the supermarket. Yeah. Even more, it's bizarre to work in government and see legions of people who have no clue about about any of this and no clue that they are being deceived.
00:13:31
Speaker
Why should people believe you? I mean, i know I know you. I know what we've been through, but that's not public stuff to everybody, every step we've taken. Why should people believe what you're saying? I was there. I saw it.
00:13:43
Speaker
I spent years researching it. um If all that I'm consulting is passage material, then we are engaged in a massive deception ah against our own military and intelligence community that I was a victim of.
00:13:59
Speaker
and on us And it would have been on a scale that probably would have been its own New story. Absolutely. Nonsensical madness. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don't think it's really asking too much of Corbell and Knapp to just ask him, what do you mean? What do you think?
00:14:15
Speaker
What is, what is your belief as to the answer to this question about, you know, did what you see make you think it was non-human? The answer seems to be yes, but again, he never says so.
00:14:28
Speaker
yeah. Did you discover any evidence that this was non-human specifically? so he's The answer, again, seems to be yes from the context, but they just never ask him yes or no.
00:14:39
Speaker
And, you know, that question is just one example of really many that I think Corbell and Knapp kinda had the duty to ask Matthew Brown, at least on camera or whatever in this interview and did not.
Challenging Matthew Brown's Claims
00:14:56
Speaker
mean, Brown asserts all kinds of things. there are any number of opportunities for Corbell and Knapp to say, what makes you think that? Why do you believe that? What led you to conclude that?
00:15:08
Speaker
And they don't. They just sort of let him talk, which leads me to my second critique. Okay, so critique number two, and this is really the biggest one, I think, um is that Matthew Brown's story, that or Maybe a better way to put it is the assertions made by Matthew Brown are all over the place.
00:15:33
Speaker
And not only are they all over the place, and often kind of incomprehensible, not clear, which is of course not helped by Corbell and Knapp failing to ask clarifying questions.
00:15:47
Speaker
Not only um are his assertions sort of wide-ranging all over the place and often unclear or indecipherable, but in many cases they have no obvious relationship and no stated relationship to at least what we know from him he found out about.
00:16:07
Speaker
In other words, his basic story as a whistleblower is that he became privy to the to information, right? The information revealed something improper going on, namely, so the information was a secret UFO program, as well as um his finding lots of classified UFO materials. And so he sort of puts these things together.
00:16:30
Speaker
He concludes that, um, These things are being improperly hidden from Congress, and he decides to report that to Congress. That's what makes him a whistleblower.
00:16:42
Speaker
That part of his story is clear enough, but he goes on to assert all number of things. He asserts, i mean, holy moly, he asserts that there's a, quote, internationalist cabal that is in charge of all these things, that is running the operation.
00:16:59
Speaker
He asserts things about the scope of the cover-up. It's vast. It's penetrated at all aspects of ah of American society or something like that, he says.
00:17:10
Speaker
I mean, he gives, he says a lot of things that are simply not backed up by his own story. Now, I don't know. Maybe he discovered evidence of those things too in his sort of personal investigation into this.
00:17:27
Speaker
That's entirely possible, but he doesn't really say so. And Korbel and Knapp never really ask him for it. And so we're just left with a whole bunch of wide-ranging stories you know, shocking, radical assertions that the the story behind them doesn't back them up, doesn't even make it clear what they have to do with anything.
00:17:53
Speaker
The third critique, and this is admittedly a bit personal to me as a professional journalist who's been in this field for about 18 years, Matthew Brown's assertion that Essentially, all media is corrupted, is controlled, in his words, and is, quote, propaganda.
00:18:18
Speaker
um at least all sort of mainstream media. That's the implication. But but he names specific outlets, which I think is important here. um Actually, let's just listen to it one more time.
00:18:29
Speaker
Here we go. Well, if you're a member of the public and you are still listening to CNN, and MSNBC, Fox News, or reading New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, all of that is controlled.
00:18:41
Speaker
It's propaganda. It is shaping your life narrative. Um... intentionally so. Now, I'm sorry, but that assertion is not true.
00:18:53
Speaker
Now, there is some truth in there. Fox News, yes, I would call that propaganda. But the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, ah you cannot like those outlets.
00:19:05
Speaker
You can think that those outlets are biased towards a certain point of view. You might be right in some ways about that if you sort of take the If you take their coverage in totality, right, the Wall Street Journal tends to be more conservative. The New York Times tends to sort of reflect more of a liberal point of view of the world, I think it's fair to say.
00:19:28
Speaker
But they are not propaganda. They are real news outlets. They employ dozens and dozens of some of the best reporters in the country who, you know, I know this. I'm a journalist. I'm a reporter. I know some of these people.
00:19:42
Speaker
i I know the field. And it's simply not true that these are just... propaganda machines controlled by some interest, you know? I mean, yeah, it's true that if you just look at the opinion parts of those, there there's some truth there, sure. But we're not talking about the opinion pieces. We're talking about their journalism.
00:20:03
Speaker
Look, I'm just going to say, you know, that characterization of media is, a inaccurate. It's wrong, in other words.
00:20:14
Speaker
And look, let's just bring it home. If you want to say, well, wait a minute, Isaiah, what about the fact that these mainstream news organizations totally ignore and downplay and ridicule and, you know, arguably sort of in their own way, suppress the UFO topic?
00:20:31
Speaker
I agree with that. I'll be the first person to agree with that. It's extremely frustrating. But, you know, there are reasons that that is happening that are not that these institutions are just...
00:20:43
Speaker
fake fronts and propaganda and, country you know, fronts for this, you know, some mysterious controller who's pulling all the strings. I mean, we've got to grow up a little.
00:20:55
Speaker
It's extremely simplistic and naive even. It does not represent a very informed and certainly not a very sophisticated understanding of sort of how these institutions work, how the media works, what the media is.
00:21:12
Speaker
And, um you know, does that... Does that make the rest of what Matthew Brown has to say like wrong? No, but it's a big red
Public Disclosure and Media Involvement
00:21:20
Speaker
flag for me. It just makes me question where this guy is coming from exactly.
00:21:24
Speaker
My fourth critique is um something that I've also referred to already in this series, um which is that the way this...
00:21:35
Speaker
became public. It still seems somewhat murky, kind of suspicious, kind of greasy to me in some way that's a little hard to pin down. But the first part of it I'm happy to share with you, which is the fact that this was broken again by this guy, Michael Schellenberger, who I've been doing some research, folks.
00:21:56
Speaker
This guy is up to his eyeball in connections to conservative foundations, conservative donors, fossil fuel interests.
00:22:07
Speaker
This is all well documented. um You can go look it up yourself. I don't really believe he's a journalist. I think he's a, but you want to talk about propaganda? He's a propagandist.
00:22:19
Speaker
That's propaganda. Go read his sub stack. That's propaganda. So how did he get this story? I have a theory, but it's not very important. um Why did it go to him first? It's shady. There's something weird about it.
00:22:34
Speaker
And then why did he drop out and now Corbell and Knapp have it? um There was no explanation given for that. They don't have to explain that. I won't say that, but ah I'd like to know because I something just, you know, this is my weakest critique for sure, but I don't know. It's like my spidey sense says that there's just something very off here.
00:22:56
Speaker
And my last, um I won't even say critique, I'll just say, you know, my last note here. um And I think this is a good place to kind of end on summing up what we've learned in this little journey.
00:23:09
Speaker
I think we need to separate, filter, distinguish what is the evidence that Matthew Brown has brought forward and of what from what what seemed to be his own story.
00:23:24
Speaker
thoughts or speculation for which he did not provide evidence or for which Knapp and Korbel did not elicit evidence, right? Because I don't know. Maybe he actually had stuff to back up some of those other things he said, but he wasn't asked about it.
00:23:38
Speaker
And, you know, I've brought this up before, and but it's really key to our our entire inquiry into this topic is the question of what is evidence?
00:23:50
Speaker
How do we define evidence? Who gets to define what is evidence and what is not evidence? And something that drives me crazy and and that I think in a way is is really disingenuous is the way that, um you know, sometimes it's skeptics and debunkers and poo-pooers, but sometimes just as often, really, it's people in the UFO community.
00:24:13
Speaker
ah you know, but go on the same rant. There's no evidence. Where's the evidence? As if testimony is not evidence, as if people coming forward who seem to be credentialed, seem to have been in a place to know something, saying something as if that is an evidence.
00:24:29
Speaker
Folks, that is evidence. It's not proof. It's evidence. You can weigh it. You can decide that the evidence is not convincing, but it's evidence. Anyway, well, we'll return to that, I'm sure.
00:24:43
Speaker
What is the evidence that Matthew Brown brought forward? Or maybe a better way to put it is, what are the things, what are the assertions for which Matthew Brown has provided evidence, even if that evidence is is just his own testimony, right? His own experience.
00:25:00
Speaker
Okay, those things are um not that mankind lives in a jail of its own creation, right? But that ah there exists, or at least existed, a new secret program to study UFOs in the government, in the Pentagon, that was being kept secret from Congress.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that there exists incredible, shocking videos and other you know media depicting UFOs, UAP, doing things that you know might make us ah question what is going on, might make us...
00:25:36
Speaker
ah might be evidence of E.T., right?
Assessment of Evidence on Secret UFO Programs
00:25:39
Speaker
Those are the essentially the two things for which he has provided evidence. The second, and in I think that's good. I think that's that's the value of this report.
00:25:49
Speaker
But I think it's also, so I don't want to diminish the importance. That's interesting evidence. I'm interested in putting that in the evidence box and considering that as we consider the totality of all the different evidence and stuff, right?
00:26:04
Speaker
Great. But I think we do need to keep it in perspective. Yeah. Is it that shocking that the government established yet another secret UFO program?
00:26:15
Speaker
um Well, maybe it depends, right? Like, if he's right that it's being purposefully kept from Congress, yeah, that's that's pretty important. On the other hand, if it's more like, you know, ATIP or something where it's not exactly being kept from Congress necessarily, it's just sort of not really out there that it exists, you know, that would be different. So I think that's an important question.
00:26:41
Speaker
um In fact, ATIP was apparently, right, the continuation of a program that received, uh, a congressional earmark or some sort of federal funding via the Congress. So it wasn't a secret.
00:26:54
Speaker
but It wasn't a secret program in that sense. He says this is, let's see. um And then in terms of seeing incredible videos and stuff, look, it's good to have yet another witness saying that this kind of material exists within the government, that it's not available to the public, maybe not to Congress, that's less clear, and that people have seen it and that it's shocking. And it has led many people to conclude that, yeah,
00:27:21
Speaker
UFOs are do represent non-human intelligence. That's extremely important, but I just want to point out that that by itself is not so different. than I mean, it's just one another person adding to the weight of UFOs.
00:27:36
Speaker
a number of people at this point who have testified to the same without being whistleblowers, but just talking about stuff that that they saw while they were in government. If you want to get an example of that, you can go back, listen to my episode about Sarah Gamm.
00:27:52
Speaker
ah She's an example of exactly that kind of person. Not a whistleblower, but she served apparently on the UAP task force, saw some crazy videos, thinks that it is non-human.
00:28:03
Speaker
Fair enough, right?
Conclusion and Future Outlook
00:28:04
Speaker
Okay. And with that, I think i've I've run out of steam on immaculate conception. I did it. See, look at that. I made it this whole way and then I did it. I so i almost, I said immaculate conception.
00:28:17
Speaker
I think I've run out of steam on Immaculate Constellation and Matthew Brown for the moment. And i'm really I'm looking forward to moving away from the news, hopefully, in some of the next episodes. and doing ah I love doing interviews, and I'm hoping to bring you some great interviews coming up.
00:28:34
Speaker
ah But also, just kind of um I'm looking forward to just... digging into the thinking on this topic, it just exploring some of the avenues of thought that we can go down as we evaluate it And with that, ah let's conclude this episode of UFO Focus.
00:28:52
Speaker
Again, I'm your host, Isaiah. You can reach me at ufofocuspodcast at proton.me. I'm also on Blue Sky. um It's, you know,
00:29:06
Speaker
It's just my name. It's at Isaiah Thompson or something on Blue Sky. So look me up. Say hi. I try to tweet UFO Sky hashtag when I do UFO stuff.
00:29:17
Speaker
um I'd love to meet you. So until next time, be kind, stay sharp.
00:29:29
Speaker
There's a starly man waiting in the sky. He'd love to come and meet us, but he thinks it blow our minds. There's starly man waiting in the sky.
00:29:44
Speaker
He told us not to blow it, cause he knows it's all about why he told me. Let the children lose it. Let the children use it. Let all the children lose it.