Transcript
Speaker: Hello, welcome back to Be, Make, Do, a Soulmakers podcast, where we explore what it takes to live out your call in the arts with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom.
Speaker: I'm your host, Lisa Smith, here with my producer, Dan ABH. Hello, everyone. and it is our passion to encourage you to become who you were created to be, make what you were created to make, and do what you were created to do.
Speaker: So we just started our first Soulmakers Forge, an apprenticeship for wise-hearted creatives, and it's off to a great start. If you want to learn more, you can go to soulmakers.org to find out about the Soulmakers Forge and get on our wait list for the next one.
Speaker: But we've just really gotten started and our groups have been stepping bravely onto the forge floor to discern, sharpen, and encourage one another. And it's been really, really cool.
Speaker: And as we've been exploring together and talking about what's going on in our creative lives, I noticed some patterns and some consistencies. And so i was talking to our groups about um kind of the motivations for for why we started Soulmakers. And I felt like it's something that we probably need to say over and over and over again to our whole audience as well with the podcast. Yeah.
Speaker: um that And ah it is important. It's important to think about why we're doing what we're doing. Like we did not start out because we felt like, oh, be cool to have Christian community with other artists um or because we're trying to start a business or because we needed to start a ministry or something like that. or or even um responding to the need to be able to teach how to make a living or do a business as an artist, those kinds of things. Those are really great. And there are lots of arts organizations for Christians that are doing that. And we hope that we're coming alongside um because we...
Speaker: I think we really want to be an encouragement because we honestly believe that at this moment in time, God has a call for artists and that artists need to be doing our work in the public sphere um from this perspective, from this place of having a deeply formed biblical imagination that is teaching us how to see and exploring what it means to be human from this biblical perspective. And it is so important to us that we help artists who are Christians feel equipped to do that work and not to hide or feel stifled.
Speaker: And I really want to help us move from this internal dialogue that sounds like, can I do it? Or should I do this? Or I don't know if I know how to do this. All these timid questions that I feel like are pervasive in these spaces of artists of faith,
Speaker: I want to to move those kinds of questions into the space where what we're hearing more often is, I'm so obsessed with this creative idea, or I'm so curious about what will happen next, or I'm just compelled to create or compelled to explore this thing that's going on inside of me. Just this fearless...
Speaker: desire to create this artistic curiosity. And one of the common themes that we're finding is that as we change the internal dialogue of what's going on, our actions shift naturally.
Speaker: but Also, sometimes the actions that we we take can help to shape the internal dialogue. And this is something that I've observed over the course of 20 plus years of being obsessed with artists and art making.
Speaker: is that consistently the most significant difference between those who merely think about creating and those who actually create, those who actually find their audience and actually feel fulfilled artistically, et cetera, is that they do it.
Speaker: That's the big difference. Not that they're more talented, not that they're more sure, not that they know what they're doing, not that people love what they're doing, not that they're great marketers or business people, but that they do it.
Speaker: over and over again. They don't wait for permission or an invitation or until it's safe or sure. They just do it.
Speaker: They make a mess in front of people and move quickly on to do it again and again. so today we're going to dive into this dynamic on the podcast.
Speaker: All right, let's do it.
Speaker: So this week I was taking a break from our sessions with The Forge and creating things for the podcast and I was listening to Amy Poehler's podcast, Good Hang.
Speaker: And in this particular podcast, she was interviewing Will Ferrell. And when I heard this clip, I thought of these conversations we've been having and I really wanted to share it and just talk about it on the podcast.
Speaker: Now, if you can listen to this clip or actually that whole interview, you can pay close attention to how Amy and Will process criticism and bad reviews because it's very different than i I think a lot of people do, myself included. You'll notice that they both feel the sting and maybe Amy even talks about holding a grudge, but they refuse to internalize the criticism.
Speaker: Take a listen. Here's the bad news. Most annoying newcomer. They were coming in for you. They were really not happy. And so, as we all know, ah we've all been hit with these moments where you're you're you're thinking, what do I do? Okay, do I just sit and wallow in this? And I don't know what it is about my DNA, but I just started cracking up going, you asked for buddy. Most annoying newcomer. Like this is what a captain does. then was And then the only thing I know how to do is I'm just going to lean in it into it anymore but even more. Like if you think I'm annoying now, just wait.
Speaker: I'm going to push that overhead projector across your face, you know? Right. And so it just kind of fired me up. Yes. there was no part of me that was like, what am I doing wrong? Oh, I better change things up. but i don't have that move. It's thrilling thing where you realize like, I'm going to survive this. I can't explain it other than like oh yeah the worst has happened. Somebody doesn't like me and so and it's like gonna be like, I don't know, there's something, there's i there's a mischievous quality about it that's fun. yeah
Speaker: And it's you don't internal you just gotta can't internalize it. Like what are you gonna So yeah, i've I find that fascinating because it's totally different from the way that I operate to like feel the criticism, take it in but not to internalize it. Like I hadn't really thought about that before, the difference between feeling it but not internalizing it. I definitely have a tendency to internalize criticism.
Speaker: How about you? Do you do that? Yeah. I mean, have before, I think I, I, I want to say as I get wiser and really start to figure out exactly what I want to be doing. And I think this year for me personally has been such a a a big year for that of really realizing things that what I'm happy with, what I'm not happy with and and things that I really want to be doing. But yeah, there have been many times where someone has made a comment to my face and I internalize it.
Speaker: And especially like for weeks and weeks trying to figure out what they meant. Yeah. Yeah. Dissecting every little part of it. I remember one time Flower Bomb played a show and we played at, I won't say the venue, but we played at this place in DC. Somebody that was helping run the show basically like came up to me and I believe that he was also a drummer. He said, yeah, you're a really good drummer. You're real loose.
Speaker: And I remember telling the band this after the show. And by the way, we have been talking about this joke for like, I mean, we made it into a joke, but I definitely internalized it. So like two or three years after that, we'll play a show and somebody in the band will be like, great job tonight, Dan, you were real loose. But I remember talking with them after the show and for like ah a week, I really was like, what do you mean by loose? Because to me, what you want to hear is you're a super tight drummer. So it's almost the exact opposite. But what I started to really realize is that I am a really like kind of like flamboyant, like animal from like, like the Muppets ah drummer. And that's sort of like my thing. And the reason why i am like that, because I really feel the music. And so I don't really,
Speaker: this is after me internalizing, but like, I hear that guy's voice. You're a real loose drummer. And I'm just like, yeah what the heck does that mean? Cause it makes me feel like, was I not tight? Was I like off? Like I'm pretty consistent and I'm always on BPM and I don't even wear a click in my ear. um But yeah, that, I mean, for days and maybe weeks, I was internalizing.
Speaker: What did he mean by that? To the point where I was like, should I like find this guy and be like, what do you mean by that? Or Google, what does loose drumming mean? I think it was a good experience for me because it was like one of the last last few times, maybe one of the last times when it comes to creating where I like really listened to that criticism, that inner criticism.
Speaker: Yeah. Like it really can be crazy making. And I think when when I heard this interview, it was like, wow, how how often do I stop and ask myself,
Speaker: do I want to internalize this or not? Like, the like the, the, it was just really eyeopening to me that it's so automatic.
Speaker: It can be so automatic to just take on board. I've got criticism, even if I don't even know what the criticism is and internalize it as something I need to deal with. It was just really, really interesting. Wouldn't that be incredible to switch that? Yeah. Yeah. To have that same mechanism, yeah, to take the the criticism with the same like, oh, okay, well, that was an interesting comment and just move on.
Speaker: In the clip, i another really interesting thing was when Will Ferrell, after being labeled SNL's most annoying newcomer, that was that was the criticism from an entertainment magazine,
Speaker: He says, there was no part of me that was like, what am I doing wrong? I'd better change things up. Instead, he says, I don't have that move. which i So this was so fascinating to me, again, that he's like...
Speaker: Because my natural instinct is, okay, let me take that criticism on board, see how I can integrate those changes and improve things. I'm going to change things up.
Speaker: But he doesn't, like to be able to say, I don't have that move. Like that's not where his brain goes. It's fascinating to me. It's just fascinating to think about that. And what would it be like not to have that move?
Speaker: Like what would change if I had... my brain operates exactly what, like what you were saying, Dan, like somebody gives a criticism and you're like, oh, okay, well, that's interesting.
Speaker: Thanks. And then you move on. Yeah. I also think like when you're a force of nature, I mean, just like Will Ferrell was definitely like, i I can understand where somebody a little bit more like on a conservative side of whatever entertainment they're just not used to it. And then, you know, fast forward to early 2000s, he doesn't change anything. And he's like the biggest blockbuster movie star who's very unconventional. You know, he's not, you know, the the typical Hollywood type, you know, he wasn't young and he wasn't super, I guess, attractive or whatever. And then, you know, doesn't change anything. If anything, you just kind of flew with that. and Yeah, double down on it.
Speaker: He doubled down on it, and but he also showed a dramatic side. He also showed, you know, over-the-top comedy and then sort of pulled back. And um yeah, I thought that i thought that ah clip in that episode was, especially that part, was really, really affirming, to be honest. Yeah. I mean, this is this is the illustration of ah what i What I was talking about at the beginning, like the difference between those who get where they want to go or do their thing, make art, and those who don't is that they do it.
Speaker: Like – And it is really that simple. And it seems like that's that's oversimplifying, but it really isn't. like They still get criticism. They still have doubts. They still all of these you know they still have challenges. They still you know legitimately have things they have to overcome, but they do the work anyway.
Speaker: And as you're talking about like Will Ferrell, like he doubled down, continued to do the kind of work that was funny to him, that was interesting to him.
Speaker: And he found his audience in the process. But he also went through periods of not having an audience or having people who really, really didn't like what he did and just continue to do it anyway. And I am fascinated by this this little insight, this key about just doing the work.
Speaker: ah Here's another example from real life. like i i have i Again, i hear people talk about, you know how do I find my audience?
Speaker: Or how do I have more people see my work? Nobody is interested. I can't get um you know seen in this place or whatever it is that that they want to do And there's this sense of like waiting to be chosen, waiting to have the opportunity.
Speaker: And I know that it's not because they're not talented or their work isn't good, either because I'm familiar with their work or just because I've had the privilege of knowing several people who um who never have a problem showing their work.
Speaker: never have a problem having a place to perform. And it's not because they're amazing. um It's because they're persistent, because they believe in their work and they show up. There is ah a person that we both know that was a part of our community for a long time who has has a very quirky um sensibility, both as a visual artist and as a musician and um Yeah, very quirky and unique, but is never and and may not be the kind of person who would be invited always to get to show or get to perform, but never had a problem knocking on doors and asking for the opportunity.
Speaker: And she got so many opportunities just because she asked. Not because the work was always fantastic, but because she asked. And ah the highlight example of this was um she she was, there was a ah um like a segment on the Jimmy Fallon show of music that...
Speaker: I don't even know. i was like music that's kind of ridiculous or like bad, I guess. yeah And he would find these these artists and these songs and highlight them on the show.
Speaker: And she had one of her her songs on the show. He selected one of her songs as like a really ridiculous, bad song.
Speaker: The hilarious thing is she submitted her work. For that, like she was the one who made the submission to the to the Jimmy Fallon show to be on that segment. Like, and it's brilliant because how many, and then she sent that clip to everyone that she knew. Like how many people became aware of her work Because she was willing to do something like that, like to be willing to be laughed at, to be, you know, to be part of, part of the joke, to appreciate. She, I think that takes a great, um, like self, self-knowledge, self-understanding of your work. But also such this incredible belief in what she's doing, regardless of what anybody else thinks. It's just, it's like such a signpost to me that persistence, believing in your work, showing up, knocking on those doors, that's what gets you in.
Speaker: You know, if you're not being seen, if you're not having a place to show, if you're not getting an opportunity, it has nothing to do. with the quality of your work.
Speaker: yeah It has to do with whether or not you're advocating for it. Yeah, i I remember when that happened, because it was a long time ago, it was maybe 10 plus years ago. And I remember being so embarrassed for her, like at the time, like I was like, oh my God, this is gonna crush her. And then I got an email or a Facebook message of her sharing it. And I was like, oh, and I think going back to what we're talking about right now, it's like, how brave.
Speaker: You know, how, like, talk about a person who doesn't give a heck, you know what i mean? Yeah, talk about humility. But does give a heck about what what they do, but also can, like, get in on the joke and also just say, yeah, you know, i I make this type of stuff and sometimes it has this meaning and this fits it fits in that category, you know, with a lot of other people thinking, like, everything you do has to count.
Speaker: Every single thing has to be taken seriously. Yeah. um But then when you do something seriously, And then you get criticism about them, but right back where we started, where it's like, oh no. And I love that story. And I think as I mature, i think I look at that very differently than what I did when I first knew about it.
Speaker: Yeah. And i you know i think it's really those people like Amy and... And Will Ferrell, who are wired that way to just be able to feel the pain and embrace it and double down and move forward, um they're very lucky.
Speaker: But what they have over the rest of us is the gift of not wasting that time and energy just rethinking everything. They take it and they use it as fuel to keep creating.
Speaker: And I think probably most of us are not wired that way. But fortunately, it's not a wiring issue. It's a muscle.
Speaker: What do you mean by that? Like wiring, wiring issue? Because it feels to me that it is a wiring issue. Yeah, for it's it's lucky if that's how you're wired. But if that's not how you're wired, it doesn't really matter because it's it's a muscle. It's the way you act.
Speaker: So a muscle is something that you can develop. And probably they learned to develop that muscle for some reason earlier in their lives. But you can just choose to do it Even if your brain is telling you something different. So even though your heart and interior voices and maybe even your body is saying, danger, danger, you've got to fix this. You've got to make them like you.
Speaker: We're going to talk about don't think, just do. So just don't, like take the first first think. Don't take the first think. Just act instead of rethinking everything. And pretty soon, if you behave in such a way that you just continue to make,
Speaker: Pretty soon you find yourself experiencing what Amy Poehler talks about later in the interview or later in the interview. She says, you realize when you do that, when you don't let the criticism send you into that spiral of rethinking, you just take it, but you continue to move forward through that criticism. You realize, I'm going to survive this.
Speaker: Like the worst thing has happened and you survived. And then once you do that, once you continue to move forward or once you do something, even though you're afraid that you might receive that kind of criticism, so you face that danger and then you survive it.
Speaker: And that feeling of surviving the worst can actually start to feel thrilling. It can start to feel a little bit addictive of like, I'm coming up against something that people aren't going to get, or I'm afraid that people aren't going to get, or I'm going to go into the situation where i may or may not to get the permission that I need or the invitation that I need. But I'm the type of person who does that.
Speaker: Every time you do that, every time you show up for yourself in that way, you reinforce that this is the type of person you are. You reinforce the idea that you are capable of surviving that criticism, that pushback, that not being gotten, that being rejected.
Speaker: And it starts to feel really good that you're the kind of person who doesn't have to internalize it
Speaker: is that so i And I think that's a gift of maturity. I think that's a gift of experience. And hopefully that's something as we're talking about that we can impart this, share this with with those who maybe don't have the experience yet. But I do find that for myself that...
Speaker: over time, being pushed and also just living through those experiences more and more, I feel a sense of confidence to be able to to not pay so much attention to it. But that's really, really hard fought because I'm definitely somebody who in the past could be completely crippled by anybody having any problem with me whatsoever.
Speaker: But yeah, experience, I think, and and living through it And also kind of seeing the amount of time wasted when you go on that trip helps to kind of be able to say, yeah i can pretty much go into any situation at this point and be okay with who I am yeah and what I'm doing creatively. And, you know, somebody can not like it and that's okay. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. and And I also think that we have to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt was like when we're living in it, when we're living in the thing that we're creating or doing or teaching or communicating. And we also live in this culture where we all agree like, well, everybody has their own opinion.
Speaker: Right. Well, we say that, but then we take somebody's opinion and we go this way with it or this way or this way. And I love what you said. And i think there's something hidden in there for me that's really coming to light. ah Like I said earlier about like this year has been a really big year of like kind of changing my brain.
Speaker: of how i take things or what I'm doing. And I think like taking somebody's opinion, just like what you just said, and then just saying like, I don't need, I can address this and I can still be polite and I could still be a professional, but I don't need to go any further because I'm the one who's doing this and creating this. And this is just somebody's opinion as opposed to 10 years ago,
Speaker: or five years ago or what whatever, I'm not saying you, could say me, um that that we would all we we would go this way or this way or this way with it and internalize it and and spend a lot of time thinking about that as opposed to be like, I know who I am.
Speaker: I know what I'm doing. I'm happy doing what I'm doing. And you'll get it soon. Maybe not now. And I think after working 15 years with you, i have come to the conclusion that you are right and everyone else is wrong.
Speaker: Or at least that's how I present it. See? And that's all that matters. Yeah. That's all I listen to. Yes. i'm going to internalize that, Dan.
Speaker: Now, I think being able to see it as something that you just do, you just exercise and being able to like shut off, not needing to internalize, but just continuing to create, like just helps us to realize that we are capable of so much more than we think. Yeah.
Speaker: And this is yet another piece of what we mean when we say that we need to become the people our work requires. was like, think about it. Your work, your creative work deserves an advocate.
Speaker: It deserves somebody who believes in it, someone who's willing to look stupid and fail and try again so that it can be birthed. Someone who isn't going to insist that you hit a bullseye every time.
Speaker: And hopefully your work will have lots and lots of advocates, but the first one that it needs is you. So it is your responsibility to become that advocate for your own work, which, you know, it's easy to say that. How do you do that?
Speaker: Well, first... We have to consider what lens we're looking at ourselves and our work through. So what is informing the way you approach the creative process?
Speaker: Like what expectations do you have for how things should go? do you expect that if you do good work, you will never disappoint people?
Speaker: Or that if you do good work, you're never going to make anybody angry? Or that people will love everything you do if you're doing it right? Or according to God's will?
Speaker: Or do you expect that somebody's going to knock on your door and choose you if you're worthy of having a platform and a stage? And if you don't get chosen, do you think the appropriate thing is just to sit down and be quiet?
Speaker: It's like show of hands if you've ever felt any of those. Like that's, i I've experienced, I lived through all of those. i loved I love all those questions because I just put like a younger self of of me answering those. I said yes to all of them. yeah's like But I would not say yes now.
Speaker: Yeah, it's almost like you kind of have to sometimes waste time in in order to say, okay, I just don't, I can't do this anymore. But that's the thing. If the challenge is if you test whatever's really going on underneath this idea that it's appropriate to internalize this criticism,
Speaker: Or maybe that you think it's wrong to not listen to other people's unsolicited opinions about your work to the point where you feel that obligation to change things up in order to meet their criticism.
Speaker: Like that's, this is, this is whole questioning process that we're like questioning the questions underneath the questions, like what's really going on. within all of that.
Speaker: Because as we've said, like taking on board constructive criticism is important. Obviously, that's important. But learning to hear what can be helpful is a skill itself.
Speaker: But you can only do that kind of discernment when you've gained a sense of authority over your own work. And that's what we're talking about this experience. meaning that you there's a you have a sense that you are the expert on your own work.
Speaker: And hear me, I'm not saying, not that you're an you are an expert, Because even if you're a beginner, you can be an expert on your work, an expert on where you are in the process.
Speaker: You know your strengths and weaknesses and where you want to go and what you want to say and where you need to grow and what choices you're willing to commit to So like I said, even if you're a beginner, you can be an expert or an authority on your work.
Speaker: When you do the work, right, do what's what your work requires to gain confidence in your craft and you have a clear vision and you're grounded in your personal, spiritual, and relational frameworks and you're developing your capacity to use your voice to communicate your vision with others and you have a clear understanding of your calling and what and why God is calling you to do but he's calling you to,
Speaker: and you have a firm grasp of the biblical narrative, which is the landscape that informs your imagination and your your vision, when you have all of that, what does that result result in? That results in that sense of authority.
Speaker: So if we switch out all of those other lenses and consider what looking through a biblical lens will tell you about yourself, when we're looking through the mirror, through the lens of Jesus,
Speaker: We see that the Spirit of God does not make us timid, but gives us power, love, and self-discipline, as Paul writes to Timothy in 2 Timothy 1.7.
Speaker: You can hear that and be like, yeah, that sounds nice. I wish I felt that way, but I don't feel it. Or maybe the Bible is saying I should feel that way. And I'm going to feel guilty because I don't really always feel that way. And maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe I need to pray more. Maybe I'm not faithful enough. And if I was, then I'd feel it. But I don't feel it right now. So and I'm going to tell you that that is just a really great place to hide out.
Speaker: Because now you've spiritualized your block and you can let yourself off the hook. And that's great. But that's not what Paul is saying. Paul is not talking to Timothy about how Timothy should feel.
Speaker: he acknowledges that Timothy is going to feel intimidated, that Timothy is young. He's not who they might be looking for as an authority figure. He is going to have challenges. He will have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. He is going to be criticized.
Speaker: Paul is telling Timothy to remember who he is and the source of his calling. What spirit is this work coming from? If it's a spirit of God, then act like it.
Speaker: Regardless of how you feel when you're acting out of your own so sense of self, act with power and love and self-discipline. not timidly, but with authority.
Speaker: It's about the creative work, the interpretive work, the sensory work to which you have been called by God. And that means action.
Speaker: That means just doing it, building those muscles by practicing it even when it doesn't feel natural. And I am saying that this is something you need to do.
Speaker: You won't feel this first and then start acting on it. You have to do it first and then you start to feel like you're the kind of person who can do this. You get the confidence, the sense of authority over what God has entrusted you to by testing it.
Speaker: In this case, it comes down to doing first. And then over time, that shapes who you become. So here's something that we can all try to start working out those muscles, especially if this is kind of a new way of thinking for you.
Speaker: So what I want you to do is choose one creative action you've been hesitating to take because you're afraid of criticism or rejection or embarrassment or getting wrong, whatever it is that fear is.
Speaker: Think of one one thing you're afraid to do because of that. And then ask yourself, if I acted from power, love, and self-discipline instead of timidity, what would I do next?
Speaker: Then whatever your answer is, do it within 48 hours. Without thinking, it. within forty eight hours just do it And then here's the point. Afterwards, we're not you're not evaluating whether it all worked out for you, whether the move was successful. What you're going to ask yourself afterwards is, did I survive?
Speaker: i did that thing, that crazy thing, that thing I was afraid of. All this stuff happened. Did I survive? And what did I learn? What did I learn about myself? What did I learn about God? What did I learn about my creative work?
Speaker: And now what am I more capable of doing than I was before? And write those things down for yourself. Because building a sense of authority comes through action, not waiting to feel confident.
Speaker: And that's our prayer for you, a sense of authority over your own work.
Speaker: This is exactly what we're doing in our new Soulmakers Forge, building these capacities to become the person that our work requires, believing that our work does require something of us because this is a calling.
Speaker: So if you want to find out more about the forge, you can go to soulmakers.org, get on the wait list for our next forge, and find out more about opportunities to grow together in community.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to Be Make Do, a Soulmakers podcast. Be sure to leave us a review and rating to help others find us. If you want to get more information on Soulmakers and join the movement, visit soulmakers.org. All links pertaining to this episode can be found in our show notes. Catch you next time.
