Transcript
Speaker: Hello, welcome back to Be Make Do, a Soulmakers podcast where we explore what it takes to live out your call in the arts with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom.
Speaker: I'm your host, Lisa Smith, here with my producer, Danny BH. Hello, everyone. And it is our passion to encourage you to become who you were created to be, make what you were created to make, and do what you were created to do.
Speaker: This season, we're exploring what kind of person our artwork requires, trying to move beyond the questions we typically ask and go beneath the surface to find the wise-hearted questions that prepare artists in our role as stewards of cultural imagination in the 21st century.
Speaker: So today, we're going to explore the difficult question Christian in the arts continually wrestle with. What does faithfulness actually look like for a Christian in the arts?
Speaker: Is faithfulness saying Christian things or inserting Christian ideas into otherwise ordinary artwork? And is art ever really neutral? Or is there always a world behind the work?
Speaker: Let's dive in.
Speaker: I am feeling so good. I had such a great weekend. We just launched The Forge. And probably most most everybody who's listening has no idea what The Forge is, but it's ah a test pilot program that we are getting ready to launch in the coming year, seven-month apprenticeship for those who are have been listening, are really totally in and excited to claim their identity as stewards of cultural imagination and want to be around other people who are going to support them and challenge them. It's so high challenge, and I'm so pumped about that.
Speaker: um So anyway, I've just been having the best time because we've got ah we hit our goal of over 20 people. um It's a really intense, tight group, um and I'm so looking forward to pulling out drill instructor, coach Lisa, and kick some butt, but to really encourage. So I'm just having the best time. I guess that's sort of also my way of introducing this to you guys and letting you know that this is coming. We're actually already accepting applications for the fall. We already have a wait list for fall 2027. So we'll be sending out more information soon and getting that invitation out to all of you. But if you want to kind of check it out, you can visit soulmakers.org and you'll see a link for the forge. You'll get to see what's going on there and just keep your eyes peeled for more information. I'm so excited to be able to offer this to more people. Anyway, how was your weekend, Dan?
Speaker: Oh, it was good. um i just got back from the first leg of the Flower Bomb Tour. i um just got back home the other day on Sunday and stopped by to do a podcast with you. and then we leave again tomorrow for another five days. Nice. um So excited about that. First three days we were pretty good. um i was thinking like on the third day, I'm really hard on myself in case you didn't know that about me, Lisa. But on like the third day, crushed. Yeah. rushed like To the point even like after the show, everyone in the band is like, damn, Dan, you like crushed. Yeah. And not that like the first two days was like, I mean, it was a little wonky, like all, you know, just like getting out on the road. And the first day we didn't have our second guitar player.
Speaker: um so we just rocked it as a three piece. and then wow um And then ah we did Philly the second day. And I was telling you this, I think I've told everybody this. I love Philadelphia. i love all the music and arts that comes out of Philadelphia. i utterly dislike driving and parking in Philadelphia. So there's really nowhere to park. And of course I got a, the van got a parking ticket because that's just what, that's just what happens in in Philadelphia. And there's no parking garage. There's no parking garages. But at the end of the day, yeah it was a $26 ticket. And honestly, that's cheaper than a parking garage if I did find one.
Speaker: Yeah. um So that's what I did. um That's what I just did this past weekend. But the weekend before was celebrating Lauren's birthday. And we had a great time. wife, Lauren? Yeah. My wife, Lauren, yeah, celebrating her, I'm not going to say her age, her birthday. It was a big one for her. So um we had a great time. And she's like a, you know, she's a home cat. She likes to read books and sit in the quiet.
Speaker: And I always need to be moving and making something or doing something. um So we found a place in like West Virginia and it was a cabin and we had a really nice time. And there's not a lot of stores out where we were at. And so I was trying to figure out like stuff to do.
Speaker: So I went to a dollar general because there was like $55 generals around there. And I had a jaunt. I had a great time in the Dollar General and um I found some index cards and I was like, oh, we should like check in on each other. you know, like let's let's ask questions. Let's. And we had some like so she loved the idea. So we got back and it was like questions like where do you see yourself in five years? Like if money and and finances and medical and all this stuff was an issue, what would you want to be doing? and um It was really cool because like some of these questions like we did know about each other, but like some things we didn't. And then there was some like really fun ones in there. One of them was the hardest question of my life, which was um if there was only one show that you could watch for the rest of your life. And ah my answer, surprise, surprise, was the West Wing. oh yes. You love a good walk and talk. I love a good walk and talk. I love a script that's like triple the size that a regular TV script should be.
Speaker: um And yeah, so, um but it took me a while because like, I was like, wait a second. for the rest of my life now because like that answer would be very different if it was like 10 years ago or even five years ago. interesting. But I just, you know, i just started watching it right after like post-COVID and stuff and I think it's like the greatest thing in the world. But like 17-year-old me when it first, or 16-year-old me when it first came out, I was like, what the heck is this? I'm not interested in this at all. This sounds lame. Yeah. That's so funny. And I love that that came up as your as your favorite show. Because that we were actually just talking about that not that long ago, about the difference between The West Wing and House of Cards, which is such a great like comparison because they're both really amazing shows. And they're both about politics. And they're both about people. And they are so different.
Speaker: Drastically. Drastically different. And I have to say, I love House of Cards, so I don't know what that says about me. But you know what? I love West Wing, too. And there are certain parts of House of Cards that I i like i can't even watch. i'll I'll fast forward through parts of House of Cards. But it's the same kind of thing. like you You love the dialogue, the quick, witty dialogue in West Wing. and like I love the intensity of the dialogue and the acting House of Cards. like The whole thing is so intense. Yeah, yeah. And I told you, like um and and Lauren really likes House of Cards a lot too. And so when I was like getting into my West Wing kick, she was like, you got to watch House of Cards. And so I just started to watch it earlier this year before I went on my sabbatical. And um and you think I would like it because it's like it's like David Fulham. Fincher produced it. It's kind of dark and the actors are great in it. But like I i couldn't help but dislike it be because it was all I could think about was the difference between that and the West Wing, which is so optimistic and really about public service and doing public service just to do public service as as as opposed to i got the episode for season one. I can already tell that it's very like
Speaker: self-indulgent and you know how to get ahead and more about power moves Yeah, it's all about power. Yeah. I mean, the reason we were talking about this originally was because it's such a great example of this idea of a world behind the work.
Speaker: Like they're both about politics. They're both about being in the office. They're both about what you do with power. They're both about human nature and service and what happens within the process of being in the White House, that kind of stuff, but have totally different perspectives. Not because either one of them like comes out and says, this is a dark and gritty take on things, or this is a lighthearted expression. It's just, it's like in the way that it's shot, in the music, in the costuming, all of these things are like coming from
Speaker: There's very clearly an imagination at work in the director and the producer of what this world is going to evoke, what they're trying to explore yeah their own interior experience. Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny because as you brought that up, one thing I did notice in those first four episodes of House of Cards is one thing they never showed – in West Wing was that like they showed like the metro system in House of Cards, like how people actually got to work and and all that. And like what they did before work as opposed to West Wing is like, it opens up in the West Wing, it opens up and in the Oval. office. And if they do show them traveling, they're on ah Air Force One. And that's basically the staging of it But I noticed that in House of Cards, it's more about DC than the White House at all. It's literally just about Washington, DC and and the the players in there.
Speaker: But it's funny because that's the contrast too. It's like um the way it looks and feels, the tone. Yeah, the tone. the tone. even ah Even the opening music. Oh, yeah. That tone so well. like i Opening for House of Cards is just very evocative, especially like I remember watching it in the winter. And so watching that opening credit scene in the winter, it's like, yeah, that's what it feels like to be here. yeah But then I also relate to, like, I also really like the West Wing and it definitely makes me feel more hopeful and, I don't know, energized. And it's just a totally different environment. But that's what that's why we were talking about this is that it comes from it's exact same kind of
Speaker: setting But coming from two completely different imaginations, both done really, really well. There's this, we're talking about that world behind the work yeah coming into, in and and it in it displays itself in different ways in the work itself. Yeah.
Speaker: what do you mean what What do you mean when you say that in simple terms? When you say, what do you mean by the world behind the work? Are you talking about the writers or the actors or like what?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so this is something, the phrase itself is um something from Nicholas Wolterstorff, who's looking at work in general and as an artist. But it's that phrase in particular that just really captures my imagination, that thinking that um it's not just so much what what you are creating, but what goes on inside of us as artists, that all artists...
Speaker: have an interior life, an imagination that's been formed and developed. And that's showing up in our work based on even what we're interested in what what stories we want to tell, what questions we have. And then in in this example that we're talking about with the West Wing and with House of Cards, the the kind of attitude that we're coming to and what we want to draw people's attention to and what we want to highlight and explore.
Speaker: And the reason why this is such an interesting conversation for me right now as we're exploring what kind of people do we need to become? What does our work require from us?
Speaker: Is I think one of the questions that that always comes up, it's it's this longstanding question within the circles of Christians in the arts. And there are lots of different answers. It's it's a done-to-death conversation in a way. Like, what what does it mean to be faithful as a Christian in the arts? Like, does my work have to have Christian messages in it? Does it have to have Christian imagery for me to be faithful? Like, does it have to say a certain thing or look a certain way? Or how do I have integrity as an artist? Yeah.
Speaker: um Do I have to use subvert my artistic integrity to my Christian faith? Or, you know, what's the balance there?
Speaker: and um I think part of the the question that we're kind of wanting to get at is that maybe there's something deeper than those surface questions going on.
Speaker: It's so weird because for me, it's it's the opposite of that, um you know, being in the the DIY punk scene and stuff. And, you know, it it was always...
Speaker: We just don't talk about it. You know what i mean? that's you know And even before I was a believer, I sort of i i wanted to keep it separate. you know And I was you know using church space at the time, but the church spaces were the the ones that really wanted to give somebody like me and a group of misfits a chance. So there was a lot of learning in that. But even through the growth and even through like my journey, my spiritual journey, it's always been sort of exactly what you're talking about. But on the other end of it, of can i be Christian?
Speaker: Can I add this into the songwriting? um The way I'm approaching this is coming from a spiritual end. Can I... talk about that and still to this day I i have trouble with it.
Speaker: always feel like I'm being judged like being Christian and being an artist and and a Christian. It's like a double whammy. yeah And um I've struggled a lot with that. I feel like I've lost a lot of opportunities. I feel like um there were things that I've worked on that um I sort of held back um to be, maybe I thought I was going to be judged because it was too clean or Dan's a Christian now, so be careful. And and those are just voices in my head. Nobody came out and said that.
Speaker: And I think that's sort of like a good example of what you were just saying about um it not being Christian enough. And then ah you know maybe the church is judging ah that artist or maybe they're censoring that artist. And on the secular side of things, you know it's like I feel like I've always, even being still to this day, coming back from tour the other day, I still feel that way. know what I mean? like you know, let's say we're all having a meal together and I want to pray before I eat. I can't do that. You what mean? And that's just like daily stuff, right? So what about, you know, feeling like I'm going to be judged because my work's too clean or it's too censored or, um and it's not censored on purpose. It's just that I don't write crap, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, it's like they these two these are two sides of the same coin of that question of what does it look like to be faithful? What do I have to do? And what am I allowed to do?
Speaker: And how do I maintain and integrity? And yeah, who's who's judging me? So I think this is really interesting. And I i want to kind of break those two apart.
Speaker: And maybe we can talk about like fear of judgment from from Christians, you know, how much do I need to put in? we can talk about that later and maybe kind of focus in on this part of the question, this conversation of like um how to navigate, how do we navigate bringing that part of ourselves into your work?
Speaker: And so what's the fear underneath that? Well, it's it's funny because like i there's so many like good groups that I still listen to to this day that I guess back in the day or even now, they still might be deemed as a Christian punk band or something. So Reliant K is one of my favorite bands. And I think some people have gotten over it, but I i think it's just stemmed from because there's so much stigma with like Christian music. And so you know if it's like ah you know and I think is like...
Speaker: still to this day, one of my favorite bands. um And ah yeah, I think the stigma is that it, because it's Christian punk, A, it's not real punk, B, it's not good. um and and the thing is, is that it's so good. They're so good that they became almost like a mainstream band. And then they got like crap for that, for becoming a more mainstream band.
Speaker: It's like, you Yeah. And the thing is, is that I just don't listen to music that way. I don't perform music that way. And I don't write music that way. It's good. If it's good, it's good. It doesn't matter to me.
Speaker: It doesn't matter what religion you are. It doesn't matter if there's any religious sort of backing with it. But I think there's a thing, um even going back to what I was saying with the circles that I have um always been in and ah been a leader in.
Speaker: been a leader in in in the DIY DC DMV community for 20 years now. And um i I still feel slightly judged if I say something that could be taken as oh, Dan's acting weird. It must be because he's a Christian. that's That didn't happen, but in my head.
Speaker: And it's because of what I was just talking about with stories about Relying K. Yeah. So I think there's like, again, this is double whammy with you know a Christian being in secular circles. And then also what you were saying about Christians being in Christian circles of it not being Christian enough. And And then on my end of things is the fear is like, what if it's too much?
Speaker: okay Right. And see, this is all so interesting because... where I think part of the assumption, there' are several there's so many assumptions going on underneath all of this, but maybe even thinking about Christian, quote unquote, as a genre of of art is a weird way to think of it anyway,
Speaker: And also the idea that like Christians are the only ones who bring a perspective or a point of view to what they're creating is also false. Like this goes back to what we're talking about of world behind the work. Like,
Speaker: I think when we ask these questions about or we think about these categories and regardless of what anybody else says, like ah if we're thinking about it, if we're starting with the idea that art is this neutral thing that is, is it, you know, it's just art.
Speaker: And then you can like add stuff like you're putting stuff into a soup. I can put a little Christian messaging in here and now it's Christian soup. Right. Like that doesn't, that's not, and if I don't, then it's just, it's just regular old soup.
Speaker: It doesn't taste like, it's actually just water. And that's not true. Like art, no matter who's making it, is putting all kinds of ingredients into it. They're putting...
Speaker: ah we all are putting our perspective on things, our experiences, what we think love is about, what we think you know falling in love or breaking up is about, you know what we think life is about, what we, even our faith perspective or our lack of you know deciding that there is no God, that's a faith perspective.
Speaker: You know, deciding that there is no hope, that's a faith perspective. Like everybody is bringing an imaginative world that's been shaped by so many different things. All these stories that we tell ourselves, that we've been told, our experiences, what we believe is important, what we believe is worth loving or caring about, how we feel about relationships and other people,
Speaker: There's always a world behind the work. So as Christians, all we're doing is bringing our perspective and our world. We're not doing anything different than anybody else.
Speaker: Yeah. I think it's all coming to me now because you were asking me about where does that come from, all that fear and stuff. And I think um everything we just talked about, it's always, um it's about the end product. Like when the end product is there, when the performance is there, the album's out, the single's out, or the social media content's out. It's like, and just like you're saying about, so well, let me sprinkle a little bit of this at the tail end to kind of make it Christian or let me pull this out.
Speaker: So it's not too Christian. But we don't ever really talk about just faithfully making art that lettuce to making it. You know what I mean? so maybe maybe i I should think more about that as opposed to the outcome because there's a whole world behind that. you know And i can I can give you a really good example um going back to what I was saying that I crushed that last show.
Speaker: and I'll tell you why i've crushed that last show. i was very grounded. I was quiet. i wouldn't say that I prayed before we performed, but I sort of was very peaceful and I just sort of like grounded myself and like didn't think about messing up. I really damaged my finger. I was like, it's going to be okay. Everything's going to be okay. And just having that frame of mind, i crushed that set as opposed to the night in Philly. i was very nervous because there was like bands I didn't know and the parking was terrible and the venue kind of stuff.
Speaker: i didn't I wouldn't say the venue sucked, but it was just like, you know, I have luxuries sometimes like being like being like in my hometown, the DMV in the DC area and stuff. So when you go outside of that, you're like, oh my God, like a load in so bad. But anyways, I say that because I carry that with me into a performance, but like I didn't on that third stage.
Speaker: on that third show on Saturday night, this past Saturday, this past weekend. And I say that because like, I think where I get caught up and a lot of people get caught up and i and I would assume, especially with the Christians not thinking their work is Christian enough, it's always about that outcome. It's like the final product as opposed to, well Were you faithful as you were creating? Were you faithful? you know And whatever that means to you, I'm not saying you know ah to to each their own, you know what I mean? But like how how you're performing, how you're making art, and and at the very end, you're're you're starting to like future trip, which I've always talked about on this podcast, right? And it's always about that end product instead of about like the process.
Speaker: Yeah, because i mean, I was going to ask you, you're talking about that one particular instance and where you were because of how you were able to be in your head and and whatnot.
Speaker: But I would back that up even further because Like you you're talking about, and we might worry, what are other people going to think? So you're you're talking about how much of myself can i honestly bring into this space? How much do I need to hold back?
Speaker: But I wonder, like, even with that, are you actually not creating As a Christian, from a Christian perspective in a worldview, even when you're doing that, like, are you actually not showing up in those spaces as a Christian, even when you are hyper aware? you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Is it even possible to take that out?
Speaker: Or is it so infused into who you are, just just kind of even knowing you and watching over, but with anybody, like over a period of time where that is becoming how you as a person are being shaped.
Speaker: Even the questions you start asking or how you want to show up. in front of the drum kit or with the people or in the club or, you know, those things start to almost subconsciously change and the music that you want to create and write.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, it's really like even just taking from this towards to how I present myself. And I have a feeling that does show up in your work as well, in your artistic creation. Absolutely. And what you're interested in and your full, don't know, your ability to go full in what you're doing. And so I think we'll come back to this, the world behind the work. But I also want to point out the other side of this.
Speaker: Like the idea, yes, there is this idea that things that may labeled as Christian might be safe or... always clean or um and and that's neither a good nor a bad thing. The question is, is it appropriate for the story that you're telling, what you're doing?
Speaker: Or is it maybe of a lesser quality? And I think all of those critiques are legitimate because there's plenty of stuff out there that lends to that. But there's also lots of stuff out there that is not like that all.
Speaker: all And I really find it interesting how much we don't talk about or hold up those as examples of ways that it is done well. Like there are plenty of people who explore their faith as a Christian in incredibly artistic ways that are even commercially successful.
Speaker: And so that's, I mean, I, I just was watching again. I'd seen parts of it, but I hadn't really allowed myself to just be immersed in the tree of life in Terrence Malick's, the tree of life.
Speaker: And it was such an incredible experience. And I've, I've, I feel guilty for the reasons that I hadn't seen it before, but it's,
Speaker: It's a meditation, like it's an impressionistic meditation on the book of Job and unapologetically...
Speaker: artistic in its exploration and not being forced into some sort of narrative structure, but really just spending so much time with different moments and questions. And I think even if you have no idea, you've never read the book of Job, ah it's a beautiful, interesting ah look at a life or at life, human existence.
Speaker: And then if you have and you studied the book of Job, it's just incredible. But here's somebody, I mean, this was a very, this was an awarded, very well-received movie, artistically pushing the envelope in a lot of ways.
Speaker: But he is exploring questions or things that he's been meditating meditating on as a Catholic, right? Throughout his career, like, but it's done with excellence. And it's, I think part of it is part of the difference is coming to a question or a desire to meditate on something honestly, and going all in, like not holding back.
Speaker: not being afraid of what might be said about it, but exploring it with that artistic sensibility. And I think that that's that's something there. Like, what are the things inside of, I don't know, maybe there's a difference between Catholicism and Protestantism too There's that a sense of um comfortability maybe with questioning that allows maybe more of that space for not necessarily having to come to an easy answer, but the question itself being something that's worth exploring.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. i I haven't seen it, but I would assume that it must be really powerful because it's breaking boundaries. It's like sort of like, it's like, it's grabbing, it's having impact on you because it's like, well, never thought of it that way before. I never saw that book in that way before.
Speaker: it's because he was asking questions that he wanted to ask and then having them come out. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, he's somebody who's breaking, like you said, artistic boundaries.
Speaker: with material that is very religious in nature. And that's just the subject matter. And I, you know, another example, i was blown away by this. I didn't realize, I didn't step back to really think about Martin Scorsese in this way, but he, he talks about it. There's an amazing clip where he's talking about how his entire career, his entire career has been an exploration,
Speaker: of questions about faith. Like, is how is it even possible to have faith? What does it look like? And that like even taxi driver and mean streets, he's starting off these questions. He has these real, I think, real honest questions for himself about is redemption possible?
Speaker: And what happens, what would happen if somebody is able to experience that forgiveness and how does that impact their life? and then impact somebody else's. It has to do with really the essence of faith, the struggle for faith to understand what it is, or maybe not understand what it is, but just have it.
Speaker: And that's something that is very important in my life. It just happens to be. i'm not trying to convert anyone or change anybody's minds. I just feel that for me, this has been something from when I can first remember to six or seven years old or eight years old.
Speaker: It's searching for a way to come to terms with that part of the human being or the human condition that is spiritual, especially in a material world. Simple as that.
Speaker: I explored it in a lot of my movies, Mean Streets even, and certainly Raging and even the documentary I made on George Harrison called Living in the Material World. And we are talking about somebody who makes some pretty intense movies. These are not clean. They're not safe. um they're They're very evocative. They don't land with easy answers. They don't point to, you know.
Speaker: And so the moral of the story is they're pieces that sit with questions yeah in really honest ways with high, high levels of craft. Yeah.
Speaker: And i think i just I think these are, they have, just like were talking about with House of Cards and The West Wing, each of those director, producer, writers having a world that behind what they're curious about.
Speaker: Martin Scorsese and Terrence Malick also have worlds within them, things that have shaped them, their Catholic faith, their upbringing, the the questions that shaped them, that they're exploring in their work.
Speaker: I mean, is that quote unquote Christian film? They wouldn't be actually categorized usually in that way, but why not? Right.
Speaker: Because it's taboo. Yeah. like i yeah ah So maybe it's it's a matter of not accepting these categories ah so easily, you know, a feeling like we have to be sort of pigeonholed in these places. Right.
Speaker: I just, I love that idea. i didn't really even think about it before. I love that idea that, you know, what you're implying is that Scorsese was using like his like mastermind to try to ask these questions to try um, use his gifts to put it out.
Speaker: Not so bluntly, but kind of bluntly. um but because it's not labeled Christian, it's not really even like thought of, of that. But I, love that because it's,
Speaker: This concept, the idea of using art to figure something out is so cool. Yeah. Everyone really does it unless you're just like carbon copy stuff and just copycatting things, you know. But if you make like really, really good original pieces of any art.
Speaker: and you have those questions, I think that's what helps you. You know what I mean? And 100% helps the audience. You know what mean? Whoever that think maybe you hit on something really important there is like genuinely having the question. Yeah.
Speaker: As opposed to already having figured out the answer that you want to tell tell everybody. Yeah. You know what i mean? Like that is maybe an element of what is kind of being referenced when there's disparaging questions comments about Christian work is that there is a conclusion,
Speaker: um which is fine. But like, you you know, you look at the Bible itself and it is mostly a big old mess. Like it the stories, most of the stories are talking about human beings and trying and failing, what it really looks like like. It is a messy, messy, messy book. And that's why it's so compelling and fascinating because the questions are, it's it's something that we're meant to meditate on and live with our entire lives as we're asking these genuine, like we, all of us, as Christians, have real questions like, where is God when bad things happen?
Speaker: Why did God not act in this way during this time? Why did this Why do I do this thing I don't want to come it and have the kind of you know but to come come at it and have the kind of
Speaker: maybe confidence in ourselves and in our faith to be willing to be open and actually go into those spaces with the real question and share the questioning and the process and then the discoveries that come out of that and the lessons that we learn out of that.
Speaker: But i think I think we're coming back now to like what kind of person is able to create that kind of work, that level of mature, thoughtful, artistically sound, understands what's appropriate and not what's appropriate, understands how to use our tools to tell a story effectively, and is comfortable enough in ourselves to be vulnerable, yeah be real. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and not worried about what we were talking about in the beginning of the episode, which is what what the end product's going to be and how that end product's going to be taken or, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think another—I'm thinking about like not having these narrow ideas. Like I was just saying, the Bible doesn't have these narrow ideas about what faithfulness looks like. It allows a lot of room for our humanness. God is very, very forgiving and is very aware of our humanness and isn't afraid— to employ the difficult, hard, even dark parts of the human experience to to share himself with us.
Speaker: And that shows that I'm thinking about David in the Bible and God calling him a man after his own heart. And I think that's, yeah, like what does that heart look like?
Speaker: um To be able to create that kind of work, because, then sorry, this is kind of jumping back, but I was thinking of another um example of, is Bono. And I know he, know, they're not a Christian band, but a lot of, but much of their music resonates with Christian themes. That's obviously very important to Bono and comes out in a songwriting But another great clip that I heard him talking about, like he doesn't start off to try to necessarily communicate a particular message. He said something like the Psalms, like the poetry of the Psalms were the material that was the the the poetic language that was able to express what was inside of him.
Speaker: I mean, i think that's a i think that's an important distinction. He's starting out as a person who has actually allowed himself to be shaped so significantly by the Bible and by his faith that what's going on inside of him that needs to be explored and needs to be expressed is something that only some and only the the poetic language of the Psalms is sufficient.
Speaker: for him Like that's a very organic place. And I think that's part of why his music reflects that in such an organic way. You know what i mean? Like they're rock songs. That's what he's writing is rock songs, rock opera. um He's just using what is inside of him.
Speaker: to come up with that material. And that's a very different approach than to say, i want to affect the world for Jesus through my art. And so I'm going to choose certain messages. And that's all up here, as opposed to how do I talk about what's important to me from a really deep, well-formed place?
Speaker: And that's, I think, what we see, again, i was talking about with David, like he's called, as a shepherd boy, somebody who's totally like not prepared in any traditional sense to be king or warrior. He's not prepared or, um you know, he can't even wear armor when he goes out to fight Goliath because he's too little. Like it doesn't fit him and he doesn't know how to wear it.
Speaker: But he's been shaped with this deep sense of faithfulness to God, deep reliance on God, deep, deep conviction that he can trust God and that he wants his heart to reflect God's heart, that he behaves in ways that are are surprising.
Speaker: He's able to have the faith when none of the grown-up soldiers around him are able to have the faith to face Goliath. He does it easily when he's faced with the opportunity to kill Saul and protect himself in his own might, the current king who's out to kill him.
Speaker: He doesn't take it because he's loyal and he's loving and he has a sense of the appropriateness of things. And he has this beautiful friendship relationship with Jonathan, Saul's son. Like he's able to have...
Speaker: kind of life and a kind of way of being with people and being in situations that's, it's ah again, it goes back to improv. It comes out of how he's formed. He's able to improv and and be in those situations in a way that is faithful,
Speaker: not making sort of like ethical decisions in the moment. He's he's acting out of the sense of who he is. Yeah. He didn't have to sprinkle a little bit of Christianity to prove his point at the end. and He didn't have to worry. He wasn't worried about how it was going to be perceived.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That worried about how how he was going to be perceived is very important.
Speaker: And it shows up in his in the Psalms as well, which are fascinating because they were written as expressions of what he was going through, both beautiful, beautiful expressions of love for God, but also so honest in its complaint and in its concern and worry and anger, rage, deep feelings of of even hate.
Speaker: Like being honest about that, but then because of that honesty and because of that heart, being able to kind of bring it back around to acknowledge, okay, I feel this way. I feel this incredible rage, this incredible hate, this incredible human emotions, but because i
Speaker: value the heart of God and love what God loves more, I'm going to subvert that. I'm going to put that into subservience under my love for God and God, your will be done and not my will will be done. And we believe it when he says that because he's been honest that how he feels right now is smashing people's heads in, which is different than saying, people are hurting me, but that's okay because God's in control.
Speaker: You know, i don't, what's really going on under there. You know what i mean? no I do. I i i think that's- You're going to say, no, I don't.
Speaker: No, I do. i um It makes me think like, i I mean, I just liked what I said about like, as you were telling the story about like, I don't think, I don't think he's worried about sprinkling anything in or holding anything back because he was so faithful and he loved and believed God so much.
Speaker: And who wouldn't if you were appointed by God at such a young age, you know, hard not to. um But yeah, it just, it, it a kind of,
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know. like It kind of informs me a little bit about what I was talking about in the beginning. not about the outcome. it's not about hiding anything either. you know it's just about...
Speaker: Doing the things that I was doing the things the way I'm doing them because I was built that way and somebody made me that way. And I can walk into a venue or walk into this podcast studio or walk into anywhere and not have to hide who I really am.
Speaker: and maybe outcomes would be better or different or maybe, you know, if I could go back in time and be like, I should have not been so guarded. should have not be so held back or yeah, I guess hiding, you know, um, maybe those things were to turn out differently, but we all know I don't like to live in the past anymore. So but well it's interesting because you're saying, i mean, a i wonder how much of yourself you're actually hiding. Um,
Speaker: You know what i mean? Like you, who at people actually, they may say these things about Christian art that you're afraid is goingnna be applied to you, yeah but they know you are and they know who you are. You know what mean?
Speaker: Already, like who you are is not hidden. And maybe the only thing that's happening and and
Speaker: Is that, yes, self-limitation or self-censorship in your creating that if you just take that off,
Speaker: like the fullness of the creativity that might come out of that. Yeah. I mean, that's that's that's what I was alluding to. like Yeah. you know But i I think it's cool because like I can start doing that.
Speaker: hu Yeah. and In full form. you know it's like and and And it's not just me. it's everywhere Everybody's guarded about something. Everybody, you know, it's so... Everyone, if there was one thing that I could take away from everyone is shame. Because shame just comes up. and Shame comes up in the Bible. Shame comes up this morning when I was getting ready for work. you know yeah like it's just If I could take that one thing away from from from everyone, I think... um Because a lot of it doesn't really exist. i'm not saying shame doesn't, but a lot of the self-shame, where that comes from, where that stems from. Because no one should...
Speaker: hide, you know who they really are? but Isn't that interesting? We're boiling this. We started out with this question of like, what does it look like to be faithful? Yeah.
Speaker: And then sort of like, how do I show up in this space and not be judged in this way? And then it's kind of boiling down to this question of, sort of i the areas, how do I hide the areas that I feel shameful about?
Speaker: Which you're right, we all have i'll have that. And it's really difficult as an artist to do that because the whole thing of being an artist is being naked, right? it's It's being vulnerable and that's what's brave about art making is being willing to be the one to break ourselves open and share.
Speaker: and if we're afraid of revealing things, then that is going to limit us. And so then that real question is more like, how do I become, again, how do I become the person from whom faithful work can emerge? How do I become the person who's not
Speaker: experiencing shame or ashamed of any part of myself because i have that confidence in who i am in God. And i have I have the courage to look at the places that I'm afraid of other people looking at because I know
Speaker: I know where this goes for me, or I know that I'm held by a loving God, or I'm i'm i'm i'm confident in my my sense of identity in that.
Speaker: And I i mean, this is this is really tough stuff. I mean, this is where you know everything that we're talking about ah at Soulmakers is you know learning to
Speaker: kind of confront the places in ourselves that need course correction and and being honest to look at what is already discipling my imagination. What is discipling my imagination that tells me that I should be ashamed?
Speaker: in this area, or if it is something that I really am i say where what's keeping me from going to God and reconciling that to experiencing that freedom.
Speaker: And so I think the what we're inviting people into, i think specifically in this conversation, is again, moving away from those surface questions to recognizing it's not actually possible as an artist to be blank.
Speaker: or to just insert something, like all of ourselves are coming out, are bleeding out in our work. And I would say then there's a responsibility to craft what's, or yeah, to craft what's inside that what's coming out is faithful, is hopeful, is real, is true, is honest, is prophetic, is priestly, is, you know,
Speaker: is helping others to imagine what's possible as a human, is is drawing attention to the things that we need to draw attention to So then those questions maybe that we can look at instead of like, what do I need to do?
Speaker: What do i need to drop in, not drop in? What am I allowed to make or not make? Is maybe for us to practice thinking about
Speaker: rather than thinking about how something you're creating is going to be received, to start paying attention to what is discipling your imagination. So as we approach our work, we could ask, like, what would real honest faithfulness to this piece that I'm working on require?
Speaker: And maybe there are things I need to deal with in myself in order to be able to go there. But so what do I need to do so I can go honestly and without shame? what Maybe what discipline would help my vision become clearer? Do I need to get better at some aspect of my craft and able to be able to tell the story or explore this thought or this feeling in that way?
Speaker: What does our work really deserve? Like, what does it deserve from us? Our honesty and our commitment and our willingness to...
Speaker: not be received well in order to be faithful to the work. And then just be able to trust that God is going to honor what we've created as a space that he's going to fill and do whatever it is that he has planned with that. Yeah.
Speaker: I really love that question of what does our work deserve? These are some really great questions. And I'm looking forward to more conversations on different aspects of this, but lots of different questions that we have and looking at how we can shift our focus to look at it through a biblical lens and how that can give us a roadmap and confidence to be really, really faithful to both God and to our artistic calling.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to Be Make Do, a Soulmakers podcast. If you want to get more information and join the movement, visit soulmakers.org. Have a question or want to leave a comment?
Speaker: Follow us on Instagram at BeMakeDoPodcast. All links and resources for this episode are located in our show notes. See you next time.
