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Ep. 3. Zoos and the Con of Conservation
112 Plays11 months ago
For this episode of The Anti-Captivity Podcast, Taryn and Meghan discuss zoos, more specifically their supposed role in wildlife conservation. In the 1970/80’s the modern conservation role of zoos began to emerge. Zoos saw their role as protectors of endangered species. Was this shift out of genuine concern for the ecosystems and all that depend on them or was it bells and whistles to give the appearance that “Captivity for Conservation” was the best solution to the impending extinction of so many wild animals?
Email anticaptivitypod@gmail.com
Resources:
Animal Oppression and Capitalism, Edited by David Nibert
Chapter 4, ZooBiz: The Conservation of Business? - Rob Laidlaw
https://www.bloomsbury.com/ca/animal-oppression-and-capitalism-9781440850738/
Critical Animal Studies, Thinking the Unthinkable, Edited by John Sorenson
Chapter 9, Looking at Fragments of Nature: A Perspective on Zoo and Aquarium Captivity - Rob Laidlaw
https://canadianscholars.ca/book/critical-animal-studies/
Captivity for Conservation? Zoos at a Crossroads by Jozef Keulartz
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10806-015-9537-z
Zooland, The Institution of Captivity by Irus Braverman
https://www.sup.org/books/law/zooland
https://earth.org/wild-animal-captivity/
Recommendations:
https://www.akashinga.org/about-us/akashinga-rangers
https://www.instagram.com/futurezoos?igsh=dWYxOGkxc3Z0YzM1
https://www.animocracy.ca/e/episode-7-confronting-animal-captivity-in-canada-with-rob-laidlaw/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Episode and Topic
00:00:00
Speaker
you
00:00:32
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode three of the Anti-Captivity Podcast. I'm Taryn. And I'm Megan. And in this episode, we are chatting about zoos and more specifically, the thing that many folks use as a justification for the existence of zoos, i.e. their role in wildlife conservation.
History Bites: Origins and Colonial Roots of Zoos
00:00:52
Speaker
Yeah, and we're going to start off with a new segment. We have segments now, and this one is called History Bites. um Many of the topics that we'll be talking about have even more terrible pasts, and so we want to give some bite-sized bits of insight into those histories to contextualize our discussions.
00:01:15
Speaker
because we need to learn about and from what went wrong in the past with a view to building better futures. So when it comes to zoos and especially claims that their purpose is largely one of conservation, we need to ask how they actually started and whether conservation featured at all in their early development.
00:01:36
Speaker
Spoiler alert, it did not. But before we get into it all, we want to give a content warning for oppression, slavery, suicide, and further into the episode, non-human animal cruelty and exploitation.
00:01:54
Speaker
Here's History Bites. History Bites. So for this episode of History Bites, we aren't going to go into a detailed history of zoos in general, but just to put things into context, as a concept, zoos have been around for a really long time. It's not a new concept.
00:02:14
Speaker
The earliest dates back to like 3,500 BC in Egypt. And back then, um and throughout like the Roman Empire and the Middle Ages, they were referred to as menageries. They were literally collections of animals.
00:02:28
Speaker
There was no conservation motivation. There was nothing like that. It was literally a display of power, of wealth, of this kind of air of being knowledgeable about the natural world.
00:02:40
Speaker
And it was a status symbol. That's all it was. And I think it's important to just keep in mind that the conception of zoos was historically, it was based on colonial domination and the control of nature and essentially just an expression of wealth.
00:02:56
Speaker
So the oldest zoo currently is the zoo in Vienna, the Thiergarten Schoenbrunn, which has been around since 1752. And the first one that opened to the public was a London zoo, which opened in 1828. And that was the first time that it was kind of the modern zoo where it was supposedly for scientific and research purposes, not just for entertainment.
00:03:21
Speaker
So aside from the beginnings of zoos being just a display of animals, the part of zoo history that we're taking a look at today um It might be common knowledge at this point, but I definitely didn't know very much about this until I was studying my master's. And even then, I don't think I fully appreciated the extent of it.
00:03:44
Speaker
So there was a guy called Carl Hagenbeck. He was an animal trader. And he kind of became known for animals. creating enclosures that didn't have bars.
00:03:56
Speaker
So the traditional older zoos were literally just these cages focused on the way that humans want to see the animals, like maximum visibility. And he decided to replace the bars with moats between enclosures so that it kind of looked more like a natural environment.
00:04:14
Speaker
And he was also an early proponent of what was called ethnological expositions, i.e. human zoos. which is as gross as it sounds.
00:04:25
Speaker
Wow. So he essentially, quote unquote, acquired different groups of people. This was kind of between the 1870s and eighteen eighty s He exploited and manipulated these people. Sometimes he would pay them a dismal amount.
00:04:41
Speaker
um But essentially they were all exploited. He had Samoan people, Sami people, African people, Inuit people, and essentially just exploited this really racist colonial mentality of the time and had these people on display in these makeshift sort of villages to show how quote unquote primitive they were.
00:05:06
Speaker
So really disgusting on all fronts. But this became prominent across Europe. So it wasn't just him. was like a bunch of these people. That's brutal.
00:05:18
Speaker
So gross. Yeah. And i I wanted to mention one particularly heartbreaking story because, you know, easy to explain the general history of these things. Like, oh, that's horrific. There were humans in zoos. How horrible.
00:05:33
Speaker
But I think it's difficult to really imagine that actually happening. um Yeah. So I wanted to mention... a specific story of a man called Otter Benga, which I'm sure many people have heard of, but if you haven't, he was purchased by slave traders.
00:05:52
Speaker
um He was kidnapped after his family was already killed. And in 1906, he ended up on display in the Bronx Zoo in New York. And he was on display in what they called the monkey house.
00:06:06
Speaker
So he was first displayed with chimpanzees and then orangutans. And he was also at one point labeled the quote unquote missing link. So promoting this very social Darwinist racist ideology of the time.
00:06:20
Speaker
And at the time there were protests and petitions against his exploitation. And eventually he left the zoo and he was working. um One of the reasons he was actually exploited even further was for cultural reasons, his teeth were filed down into these sharp points and people kind of latched onto that and labeled him as a cannibal and paid him to take photos of him showing his teeth.
00:06:48
Speaker
um So when he eventually got out of the zoo, he got a job, he learned to read, and he had his teeth capped so he would kind of fit in better to American society.
00:07:00
Speaker
But he wanted to return back to his home. He was originally from the Congo. he was Congolese. But because of the start of World War I in 1914, There were no longer passenger ships that could take him home.
00:07:12
Speaker
And of course, naturally, he got depressed because of the whole situation and unfortunately died by suicide in 1916. So that was kind of 10 years after the whole ordeal at the Bronx Zoo. And i think he's probably one of the more well-known individuals that this kind of thing happened to, but he's just one of many.
00:07:34
Speaker
And it's just such a heartbreaking story that I feel like everyone should know because people today just go to a zoo and think it's just a zoo, but they don't know the really dark history behind it.
00:07:50
Speaker
who And if you haven't heard of her before, you know, just just to put into context that there are other people who went through similar things, Sarah or Saki Bartman is another really, really heartbreaking story of a woman who's heavily exploited.
00:08:07
Speaker
um She was actually from the Eastern Cape in South Africa and was exploited all through Europe. and it was actually quite a struggle to get her remains back, which Nelson Mandela was actually involved in. But yeah I won't go into all the details of that, but also a very, very heartbreaking story that's worth reading into if you haven't.
00:08:27
Speaker
Yeah, I learned about Sarki a couple years ago only. But when i was when I read
Zoos vs. Conservation: Initial Thoughts
00:08:37
Speaker
Fearing the Black Body, the Racial Origins of Fatphobia by Sabrina Strings, I was...
00:08:43
Speaker
um basically trying to unpack my inherent anti-fat bias. And it's an incredible book for all ah for that reason and so much more. But one of the things that Sabrina wrote about Saraki was that her presence as a symbol of Black femininity helped make fatness an intrinsically Black and implicitly off-putting form of feminine embodiment in the European scientific and popular imagination.
00:09:21
Speaker
So it just, to me, shows all the connections. like And going into other episodes that we'll do in the future, there are so many things that connect back to this idea of captivity.
00:09:37
Speaker
um And it just... It's all connected is all yeah i can say to so many different oppressions and it's all just fucked. Yeah. And that's why we wanted to kind of shine a spotlight on the human zoo side of the history of zoos because It's important because it does show the links to colonialism and racism.
00:10:00
Speaker
And I didn't realize how recent it was as well. Like the last human zoo was actually in 1958, which is wild to think about. That's not a long time ago. yeah And I distinctly remember a picture, which I didn't realize was from that year.
00:10:16
Speaker
from a zoo in Belgium where there's this very young girl standing behind a fence and there are just all these white people leaning over the fence and like kind of gawking at her. She must've been like five or six years old.
00:10:31
Speaker
There's this photo of a white woman leaning over and giving her something and people were like handing food to these people on displays. And that image has always stuck in my mind because it's such a like stark,
00:10:46
Speaker
display of racism and power imbalance and all of these things and just showing how dehumanized anyone who wasn't white was. And I mean, we still see that today, but I didn't realize that that picture was actually from 1958. Like I didn't realize how recent it was.
00:11:05
Speaker
Yeah. And isn't she the little girl dressed in a little frilly dress with white socks and Mary Jane shoes and Yeah, that's the exact one.
00:11:18
Speaker
it just makes it makes you uncomfortable even looking at it now.
00:11:23
Speaker
So we won't harp too much more on this topic, but we just thought it was an important bit of history to contextualize everything. But I think we can move on to the main discussion, right, Meg?
00:11:34
Speaker
Yes, indeed. um And so just to start off, baseline, what is wildlife conservation?
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, if we're talking about the role of zoos in conservation, we should probably think about what that actually means. And for the most part, most definitions describe it very simply as the protection of wild animals and their habitats.
00:12:02
Speaker
I think that's so important because it's easy to envision conservation and visualize the animals that you would like to save or But it's it's easy to also forget that that means ecosystems and habitats, because with without healthy ecosystems and without habitats, there is nowhere for those animals to go.
00:12:24
Speaker
yeah And like how they're affected by environmental and human influences. um And so. I thought it'd be cool to start off by just having a quick little chat about what our thoughts were around zoos and conservation kind of before we did all the research for this episode, just to kind of see where where we started out at.
00:12:57
Speaker
So my thoughts were mainly just that I hate the whole idea of zoos. Like it was an instinctive, this is wrong. i hate everything about them. We should shut them down.
00:13:08
Speaker
um But I also think that there is some research and conservation work being done that is notable. and is important to some extent. But even if that's the case, in my opinion, and this is how I kind of approached it going into this topic, was that whatever conservation work is being done through zoos, that it's absolutely not enough to justify the existence of zoos as a whole.
00:13:37
Speaker
And My approach was more, I hate the idea of zoos, but I think it's worth exploring and trying to understand why people still defend them and why people buy into this narrative that they're there for conservation.
00:13:53
Speaker
What about do you, Meg? um When I started doing animal rights activism, it was pretty simple. Like the zoos are so fucking wrong and they need to stop. They need to close.
00:14:07
Speaker
But that was it. Like, I feel like I had no facts to back it up except to repeat back the chants that I was saying at protests like captivity kills and it's not conservation. It's animal cruelty.
00:14:21
Speaker
I mean, later on after I'd helped organize protests and I heard folks do speak outs, things started to change for me as far as having receipts for all the atrocities that happen inside zoos and from seeing the suffering firsthand when I actually went inside.
00:14:40
Speaker
Like I knew that modern zoos hid behind the guise of conservation and education. And although they say that they're doing good work, it's a very, very low, like minuscule percentage of the revenue goes towards any of that.
00:14:56
Speaker
So I figured their conservation work is just a load of bullshit. Like I had the same mentality as in the very beginning, even after I'd learned more about things that zoos are evil, no need to have a conversation about it. Fuck zoos, right? Like what is there to talk about?
00:15:16
Speaker
yeah Well, it turns out a lot. Zoos are doing quote unquote conservation work, you know, in collaboration with conservation movements and organizations.
00:15:31
Speaker
But it's most of it is not for the reasons I thought. Their breeding programs are pretty much there to keep the zoos populated with animals. And they aren't breeding animals to reintroduce into the wild the way I unconsciously and na naively thought they were trying to do.
00:15:51
Speaker
Like I say unconsciously because I didn't really give it much thought. Like whatever they were doing, it's fucked and not in the best interest of the animals. And i would just get so riled up thinking about zoos that there was just no way that they can do anything good. And if they did, then that would taint everyone's view about them.
00:16:15
Speaker
And I also didn't want to know the real goings on. And it was just full on bias that conservation is absurd in zoos because they are so corrupt. But there are a very few efforts, conservation efforts that have been successful. And we'll talk about those later.
00:16:35
Speaker
But overall, conservation is not a thing within zoos in my mind. But I'd also like to mention, um that there is this common thread woven through many of the things that we're going to be discussing, and that's of human supremacy.
00:16:52
Speaker
Because basically it's humanities, it's our fault for all the destruction in the world, and the reason animal conservation efforts are so dire is because of imperial power and global domination and oppression.
00:17:07
Speaker
So whatever comes from these supremacist entities is going to be tainted by values, ideologies and practices of imperialism, like overpopulation, habitat destruction, capitalism, climate change, all of these things.
00:17:23
Speaker
It's our, like it's white supremacy's fault. And then we come in and say, we'll save the animals, but not by giving anything up on our end, but Let's just keep the animals in cages in a controlled environment, and that's how we'll save them.
00:17:41
Speaker
Not by looking at the destruction caused by us that is causing their need to be saved in the first place. Of course, that's not what you and I think, and many people think, who are not into zoos and captivity.
Education or Exploitation: The Role of Zoos
00:17:55
Speaker
But I just wanted to touch on all of that. And yeah.
00:18:02
Speaker
I think you summarized so many of the points that we're going to be covering in more detail, but maybe we should start with looking at how conservation did start to play a role in zoos. Cause obviously in the beginning it was not a feature, but when did that kind of shift?
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, in the 1970s and 80s, the modern conservation role of zoos began to emerge. And this was a result of the growing awareness of biodiversity loss and increasing threats to species and habitats.
00:18:36
Speaker
and zoos began to see their role as protectors of endangered species. And this transition was significantly influenced by the Endangered Species Act of 1973 in the US.
00:18:49
Speaker
And this restricted the acquisition of new animals from the wild. And there was the Noah's Ark concept was introduced at this time.
00:19:00
Speaker
the This term refers to the idea of zoos becoming a refuge for endangered species and ensuring their survival and captivity and potentially for reintroduction into the wild.
00:19:14
Speaker
And then just a little bit more kind of Info here, in 1992, the Convention of Biodiversity was signed at the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro.
00:19:27
Speaker
And this convention highlighted the importance of ex-situ conservation, which is conservation outside natural habitats. in seed banks, botanical gardens, zoos and aquariums.
00:19:40
Speaker
And then in 1993, the World Accreditation of Zoos and Aquariums and the International Union for Conservation of Nature launched the first World Zoo Conservation Strategy with the motto, Captivity for Conservation.
00:19:56
Speaker
And this strategy solidified zoos' commitment to species conservation and positioned them as crucial in the fight against extinction. But like was this shift out of genuine concern for the ecosystems and all that depend on them? Or was it all bells and whistles to give the appearance that captivity for conservation was the best solution to the impending extinction of so many animals?
00:20:25
Speaker
um Yeah, I mean, zoos are capitalist entities. The commodification of animals is the foundation of these industries. So as I said before, i don't really believe any...
00:20:40
Speaker
good intent coming from these places. I mean, there are good people who work there and who love animals, obviously. And I guess I'm just a big cynic with regards to all of this, but I just can't see like these good intentions being genuine and real.
00:21:02
Speaker
And also many of the animals that are in zoos are not even on the endangered species list or do not belong to groups designated for conservation. So it's just this imbalanced kind of ah mindset in my mind.
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah. And I think you raised two kind of important points there. Firstly, that's If we think about the original motivation for zoos having nothing to do with conservation, and then that kind of shifts as we get changes in ethics and kind of public pressure.
00:21:36
Speaker
Even now we see adaptations happening with zoos as ethical guidelines change and things like that. So changing to meet current standards of ethics or like rethinking just capturing animals randomly from the wild and the impacts on ecosystems from doing that,
00:21:57
Speaker
zoos are still making adjustments to fit within a framework that was never meant for conservation. So yeah they're not asking whether their very existence is worth maintaining.
00:22:09
Speaker
They're looking at the current setup and like trying to make adjustments within the system, which to the other point you made is predominantly a capitalist endeavor.
00:22:21
Speaker
And I don't think any kind of situation that involves in this case, animals, When the motivation is a capitalist one, a profit-driven one, there's always going to be exploitation. Oh, yeah. It's never going to have the best interests in mind for the individuals that are being discussed. It's capital at the end of the day. What is best for profits?
00:22:42
Speaker
Not necessarily for the individuals, regardless of how many people, like you said, are well-intentioned or actually want to make a difference. The system that they're operating within is profit-driven. Mm-hmm.
00:22:56
Speaker
So thinking of that shift towards conservation and bearing in mind that they are profit motives as well, um think we should look at how they claim to be involved in conservation. And I think one of the main points that they put across as being their conservation goals or their conservation initiatives has to do with awareness and education and helping people to connect with these animals to develop some kind of empathy for them. Yeah. um
00:23:29
Speaker
I read a lot, quote unquote, zoos connect folks to the animals they would never see in real life. And so that motivates them to actually, the humans, to actually do the conservation work themselves, like donating money, changing lifestyles to alleviate imminent climate crises.
00:23:48
Speaker
The zoo's job is done. making it kind of an individualistic problem to fix rather than looking at the bigger context and the systems and industries that need to make the drastic changes to bring true conservation into fruition.
00:24:04
Speaker
Like creating these connections, I feel like it's like the zoos consider their very existence to be an act of conservation. And I think that is what they're trying to say because they're helping people folks connect to nature, ah kind of nature they don't have access to, because these zoos are usually in cities and urban areas.
00:24:28
Speaker
um But there's nature and ecosystems and wonders all around us, even in cities. um Yeah, a while ago, i was walking down the street and I saw this weird big section of brown on the ground on the sidewalk.
00:24:48
Speaker
And As I went closer, I saw that it was an army of ants, but it was just a blur of brown. I had to get down really close to see all of the little individual ants moving.
00:25:02
Speaker
And I mean, it was pretty gross. It looked, it was creepy, but I couldn't look away. Like it was mesmerizing to watch like little things like that. Even yesterday, i was watching bees with their butts covered in pollen.
00:25:20
Speaker
Like, It's amazing to just look at nature. And I'm rambling about insects, but of course, there are bigger animals. There's so much to look at if you just open your eyes and pay attention.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, like you were mentioning, just zoos existing and thinking that's a conservation win or having these individualistic... initiatives, that's basically taking a chapter straight out of the capitalist playbook, right?
00:25:49
Speaker
You'll have these huge corporations polluting ecosystems and doing the most horrendous things, contributing to climate change and deforestation and all of these things.
00:26:00
Speaker
And they'll be like, take five minute showers to save the environment. It's a typical capitalist externalizing the problem putting the onus on individuals to make changes rather than looking at the systemic issues.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah, and the conservation messaging is very sanitized. um Because for most people, for any people that families that go to zoos, they're going for a fun family day out and having discomforting, like reality-based messaging is just a downer. So they don't really put like the realities like in your face in the messaging. It's just really wishy-washy. Yeah. And I guess that's a recurring theme with some of these conservation initiatives is that we're putting out fires rather than addressing root causes.
00:26:59
Speaker
you know We're not addressing things like animal agriculture or deforestation, but here's a five-minute thing you can do to feel good about yourself. Yeah, exactly. And these captive animals are the ambassadors for their species. like They are perceived wildness displayed under captive and controlled conditions.
00:27:19
Speaker
And there is no consent there. like They did not choose to be the spokes animal. for their entire species. Yeah, and I've seen that narrative repeated that the the animal you're looking at is like an ambassador for the wild counterpart, which is so insidious underneath it because it implies that we need some token representative of a species to i elicit empathy. We can't imagine kinship with these animals without seeing them in front of our faces.
00:27:50
Speaker
i think this is at the core of so much of discrimination in not being able to relate to the other. you know And so the narrative that there's this ambassador for the wild counterpart, when in actual fact, there are two different animals at that point, you've got a captive animal and then you've got an animal in the wild.
00:28:12
Speaker
They're not the same anymore. Looking at that narrative that we need these ambassador animals to elicit empathy, It kind of highlights how much looking at the animals is the primary function.
00:28:27
Speaker
Like it's the entertainment goal, it's human-centric, and education is very much secondary. And I think that narrative that we need to see individuals in front of us to be able to empathize with them reinforces narratives like we see with sexual assault or domestic violence in humans.
00:28:50
Speaker
There's often this attempt to humanize the victim by saying to men, you know, this victim could be someone's sister, could be your mother, could be your wife.
00:29:01
Speaker
It's always in relation to that individual. So instead of trying to elicit empathy by just acknowledging this is a human being we're talking about, it's always, it could be your sister.
00:29:13
Speaker
It's always someone in relation to you, which is such a patriarchal way of seeing things. And equally, when we say, look at this animal in front of you, please care about their wild counterparts.
00:29:28
Speaker
It's the same kind of thing. It's like we have to have a personal connection to them to be able to imagine them as needing care and support.
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's so annoying. Because, like, really, it is human nature to think that way, I think. But it's supremacy in action, instilling in us to look out for ourselves and those closest to us, look out you know look out for number one.
00:29:58
Speaker
And the notion of collective care or mutual aid, like real conservation, that's the enemy of those in power because then they, the people in power, um would have to sacrifice all that they have and all that they are to have any real positive change in the world in all capacities, right?
00:30:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It is normal. Like you said, it is a normal human trait to first look out for those closest to you. i mean, if there's a burning building and you've got your best friend next to you and a complete stranger,
00:30:36
Speaker
And you can only help one. The natural thing is to help the person you know. But I think the implications of that are so far reaching. Because it's not just us looking out for our relatives or best friends or whatever. It's all these animals in front of you and having no ability to have empathy for any of them.
00:30:58
Speaker
i think that's the problem is that it becomes this entrenched supremacist way of seeing other animals. as so far removed from us that we can't even see that they're being exploited.
00:31:11
Speaker
And I think part of the education narrative that zoos portray kind of feeds into that actually, because they set zoos up to try and mimic natural environments.
00:31:27
Speaker
But there is no way to actually replicate those environments. So it's this whole facade that again is mostly geared towards the humans feeling like they're in nature, the humans feeling like they're entering into these animal habitats, but it's not it's not authentic.
00:31:48
Speaker
It's portrayed as part of the educational experience, like let's see these animals in as much of a quote unquote, natural environment as we can. But in reality, what kind of education can you actually give in a fake environment?
00:32:04
Speaker
Like if we look at elephants, they travel tens of kilometers a day naturally and have you know ranges of hundreds of square kilometers. There is absolutely no way to replicate that in captivity.
00:32:18
Speaker
So if we're selling this kind of display, as being educational and natural, we're normalizing things that are absolutely not natural.
00:32:30
Speaker
And that's where you see like stereotypic behaviors in animals in captivity. Those are not natural behaviors. They're signs of stress. You see zucosis, you see all of these ways in which the animals are telling us that they don't want to be there or that they're not healthy.
00:32:47
Speaker
And that's being sold as education. what What are we educating people on?
The Reality Behind Conservation Claims
00:32:52
Speaker
Yeah. Because they're not seeing natural environments. They're not seeing no they're not natural behaviors.
00:32:58
Speaker
So then where's the education? It's misinformation, if anything. Yeah. Yeah, and um Rob Laidlaw said,
00:33:10
Speaker
we were able to chat with him and he quoted Gordon Burkhart as writing, the best that can be done for wildlife and captivity is to work within the parameters of controlled deprivation.
00:33:23
Speaker
And that is all that you can do. And so just controlled deprivation, that's just, those two words together are so, they just show the, um,
00:33:38
Speaker
the grossness of it all. yeah I can't find ah bigger word. well it's the same as when they use terms like enrichment. I find that so infuriating because enrichment implies enriching an already good experience.
00:33:54
Speaker
like it's a nice to have. Whereas in the context of the zoo, much of the time, the enrichment that is there is just mitigating deprivation, like you said, trying to deal with stereotypic behaviors or deal with signs of stress.
00:34:13
Speaker
It's not enriching the lives of these animals. It's just taking away some of the suffering. So yeah. Also one of the, real issues that i have with the normalization of zoos is that It's very easy to forget that there's an animal looking back because the whole experience is geared towards the human gaze, the human looking at the animal as just an observed object almost.
00:34:42
Speaker
And it's easy to forget that there's an animal there that's not only having an autonomous experience, but also looking back and also having either a positive or a negative experience and having some kind of agency to show resistance.
00:35:03
Speaker
And it makes me think of one of the stories in um Jason Hybel's book, Fear of the Animal Planet. It's all about different forms of animal resistance in different situations.
00:35:16
Speaker
And there's a really good example of animal agency within a zoo context. And in 2007, there was a tiger named Tatiana in the San Francisco Zoo.
00:35:30
Speaker
And it's a story about how there were these three boys taunting her and throwing things at her. and eventually she escaped and she actually ended up killing one of them and wounded the two others.
00:35:44
Speaker
But what was incredible about the situation was not only did she go after the people who were actually taunting her, she didn't harm anyone else in the process.
00:35:55
Speaker
And that just shows so clearly how these animals are having an experience and if they have the opportunity, they're going to show resistance to it. She didn't want to be there.
00:36:06
Speaker
She didn't want to be experiencing that so and she was being exploited. And unfortunately, as is usual in these situations, she was labeled a threat and then shot. Fuck.
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's really infuriating and that's what happens in these situations. She was tormented, she was abused, she was exploited. And when she finally fought back, she was labeled a threat and shot.
00:36:34
Speaker
And that just epitomizes how the normalization of zoos plays out for animals. When we say we want to have animals in captivity for conservation or for the betterment of the species, what about the individuals?
00:36:49
Speaker
they kind of just get lost in the bigger picture. Yeah, like it's human human supremacy, like, oh, these animals don't know that we're watching them or they they don't understand what's really happening. But there is this term called the observer effect.
00:37:08
Speaker
And this occurs in zoos when the presence of people, whether researchers or the public, alters the behavior of the animals. And this can range from increased stress like zookosis in some species.
00:37:23
Speaker
And then it said when I was looking it up that there could be no significant impact or even positive enrichment in others.
00:37:35
Speaker
But that's bullshit. I mean, any quote unquote, like positive enrichment is these wild animals becoming accustomed to humans being close to them, which is like that we are safe to be around. So that would lead to them never being able to be reintroduced. Like it's not, they're wild animals and they're not supposed to be accustomed and curious about us because we will do harm to them.
00:38:09
Speaker
Yeah. And it's actually, when you think about it, it's so obvious. Like the observer effect happens in human research as well. Yeah. It's natural that your behavior changes when someone's there.
00:38:21
Speaker
Why would other animals be any different? They adapt in the wild to being attuned to their surroundings, to being attuned to threats. So of course, they're going to react to their environment. And to think that they would just be these passive vessels just sitting there is ridiculous.
00:38:40
Speaker
It just shows how the whole process is very objectifying because humans are just seeing them as these objects that don't have autonomous roles in the situation.
00:38:53
Speaker
Also, just a just a side note, if anyone's listening and hears very loud snoring or growling or barking, purring, Megan and I are both surrounded by creatures okay there are three dogs and three cats and two upstairs from me so that means five dogs and three cats yeah so I have a very big dog in my close vicinity who is snoring his face off so you can probably hear him I want to hear I can hear it in my in my headphones so
00:39:31
Speaker
I'll edit out what I can, but if there are barks or snores or whatever, this is how this podcast is. So deal with it. Yes. Okay. Anyway, so back to what we were actually talking about.
00:39:43
Speaker
When we're thinking about how these educational claims kind of fall flat, one thing I was thinking about a lot is how the messaging comes across at zoos.
00:39:55
Speaker
And in my mind, there's explicit messaging and implicit messaging. And the explicit messaging might be, here's a poster of this conservation initiative or a conservation project that we're involved with. And there might be little bits of messaging throughout the zoo that allude to the fact that there's some conservation going on.
00:40:18
Speaker
But I think more importantly, there is a whole lot of implicit messaging going on from walking through the gates of the zoo. Like you were saying earlier, Meg, the conservation messages are sanitized and don't want to be a downer.
00:40:32
Speaker
Like from the time you walk in, it's supposed to be this positive family, feel good experience. And just the very setup of the zoo and the fact that we are gawking at animals if we're in there,
00:40:47
Speaker
sends a very big message and it normalizes that this is an okay thing to do. So while we might see some kind of messaging about conservation, this kind of subconscious or low level messaging that we're seeing implicitly all over the zoo is captivity is okay.
00:41:07
Speaker
Captivity is normal. This is how things are. So there's this repeated normalization of captivity and oppression and exploitation that is unavoidable.
00:41:19
Speaker
And I think that speaks a lot louder than any kind of poster. So would that be like But an example of that, or like to riff off of what you're saying, um some explicit messaging is like, recycle your cell phones, because that is a tangible thing that someone can do.
00:41:43
Speaker
And that implies that doing so will make a difference and aid in the plight for the wildlife conservation. But I feel like, no, that fucking doesn't do anything. What would explicitly help would be cell phone companies making cell phones that forever.
00:42:02
Speaker
longer than two years, so you don't have to re keep getting new ones and ending cobalt mining for a plethora of reasons, like for the humans that are mining, the resources that are being depleted, like the habitat destruction, all of that, big things like that.
00:42:20
Speaker
That isn't necessarily explicitly related to what we're seeing in zoos and the idea of saving animals, but it is all about the ecosystems and interconnections of animals and biodiversity and all of that.
00:42:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, I think you touch on an important point there that even the messaging that is there regarding conservation does have a lot of implicit messaging as well. Like you mentioned, recycle your cell phone has the underlying implication that this is how you can do your part and then you can feel good about yourself. And that implies that you are now the conservation hero, you know? Yeah.
00:43:04
Speaker
but but But what I was thinking more of, and it is related to what you were saying, but just the very existence of the zoo has layers and layers of implicit messaging there that normalizes the experience. Like just being there implies that being there is okay.
00:43:24
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Just seeing animals in cages or in enclosures normalizes that that is okay and the implication is this is what has to happen to help animals like I can only remember going to the zoo a handful of times in my life But the most recent time, when I was a little bit older, i had some kind of awareness of things, but I wasn't i wasn't like vegan yet. I wasn't ah wasn't like questioning things in depth.
00:43:56
Speaker
um I was just a kind of standard, you know, I love animals kind of person. And even being there, I didn't really see ah as much of a problem with it because I think I bought into some of the conservation messaging.
00:44:10
Speaker
But I remember being very uncomfortable. seeing some of the animals in enclosures very obviously looking distressed or unhappy or like the enclosure was too small or whatever the case is.
00:44:22
Speaker
But just by me being there, it was almost normalizing like, this is really sad, but I guess this is what has to be done. Right. Yes. Okay. Totally.
00:44:34
Speaker
But aside from the education side of the conservation claims, We should also talk about the probably bigger conservation claims that are made and that is of preserving species and rehabilitation and rewilding of animals and also habitat protection.
00:44:55
Speaker
Yeah, so like most folks don't realize that the species survival programs, the SSPs through the accredited zoo and aquarium organization, they are essentially breeding animals for zoos.
00:45:11
Speaker
And almost all zoos have no mechanism in place and never had any intention of ever putting animals back into the wild. Like you go anywhere and it's just wishy-washy wording that creates the impression.
00:45:27
Speaker
And certainly most people who visit the zoo, they believe that this conservation is happening and that this is going to support these animals being reintroduced into the wild.
00:45:42
Speaker
Like these animals are part of this founding population and that their babies and their babies' babies, the future generations, are eventually going to be released into the wild for repopulating in their natural habitat.
00:45:59
Speaker
But that's not the case because reintroducing animals into the wild is so complicated because also is the habitat there for them?
00:46:12
Speaker
Their natural original habitat, is that there for them to go back into? And as we've been talking about stereotypic behaviors and zookosis and all of these things that come from being in captivity,
00:46:30
Speaker
They're not finding their instincts that will help them thrive in the wild, in their natural habitats. Yeah, rewilding, like you said, is notoriously difficult. And yes, there are some success stories which proponents of zoos will gladly mention if you criticize zoos, but the fact of the matter is the majority of rewilding programs fail.
00:46:55
Speaker
And even the quote unquote successful ones, often it's only a small percentage of the group that survives. And just to backtrack a little bit, you were mentioning accreditation. So already we know a lot of these programs are not successful.
00:47:10
Speaker
Most animals can't be rewilded. So then it raises the question, Why are animals that are notoriously difficult to reintroduce kept in zoos then?
Accreditation and Resource Disparities
00:47:19
Speaker
Because there is no possibility of rewilding them. So then it comes back to your point about just maintaining populations for the zoo.
00:47:27
Speaker
Why would you do that other than for profit? And if you want to maintain like genetic diversity and, you know, certain numbers of species for a hundred years, what for?
00:47:39
Speaker
If you can't reintroduce them, yes, technically, if an animal goes extinct, I guess you can get a gold star if you're a zoo who's like kept some of them alive. But like... That's so fucked.
00:47:51
Speaker
Yeah. what Like, are we supposed to be happy about that? Yeah. If tigers go extinct, then they are just gone. They should just be gone. Like, I don't want to live in a world where there are only tigers yeah in captivity.
00:48:08
Speaker
Like that's so fucked. Yeah. And currently there are more captive tigers, in at least in the US, than there are wild, which oh my already is so messed up.
00:48:19
Speaker
So we've mentioned how these programs are not super successful in terms of, you know, saving species from extinction. But we have to remember that these SSPs, these programs are functions of accredited zoos accredited with boards like waza or as a or those regional accreditation boards which if you think about it those are like the basic bare minimum standards for like a quote-unquote good zoo the tiniest fraction of zoos are actually accredited so if you're looking at bare minimum standards for care the majority of zoos are not even meeting that
00:49:04
Speaker
And then on top of that, only a small fraction of those who are actually accredited are doing conservation work that's actually helping the species. So when you look at the the full picture of all zoos worldwide, it's almost, well, it is, it's like insignificant.
00:49:21
Speaker
So to me, that argument in itself just shows that it's not, it's not a viable institution. No. the The benefits are negligible.
00:49:35
Speaker
And far, far outweighed by the costs and the negatives. Yeah, and there are different ways of thinking, like birth control and stud books, like very controlled and managed reproduction.
00:49:49
Speaker
um And to make this happen, animals are constantly in motions. like transferred from zoo to zoo, and because this will conserve their population according to reproductive needs and to maintain the genetic diversity.
00:50:07
Speaker
But there are there are certain zoos in north Northern Europe that have insisted that reproduction is an animal's basic natural right. And so you're probably thinking, oh, that's great. That's a good thing, right?
00:50:22
Speaker
And that it's better to let animals reproduce. So it's in, in these zoos, um it's better to let them reproduce and then cull, like kill their offspring than to artificially prevent them from reproducing altogether.
00:50:42
Speaker
Like, how is that better? Like, i don't, I mean, I know in the wild, you know, babies die and they're, You know, sometimes the little little ones get left behind or whatever it might be, but trying to use that as an excuse to reproduce that in captivity and it be okay is fucked.
00:51:05
Speaker
Well, that again comes back to the whole capitalist argument, right? Is that it's what's profitable and what what do they have space and resources for?
00:51:16
Speaker
Obviously, it's going to be limited because there is not a lot of available space for the animals. So... They're naturally going to get in those shitty situations and then have to essentially play God and make decisions for animals.
00:51:33
Speaker
They decide who lives and dies. They decide how, which of course, like we've mentioned already, there are obviously people working within the context of zoos who are well-intentioned, who are incredibly intelligent.
00:51:47
Speaker
They are honestly doing their best to put programs in place that is the least harmful to those animals. But no matter how many smart people you have working on these projects to figure out what's best for the animal or what's the best way for them to die, you're still working within a system that's exploitative and oppressive and harmful.
00:52:10
Speaker
So there's never really going to be this amazing creative solution to situations like the one you just described because it's within the confines of it of a non-viable system.
00:52:22
Speaker
Yeah. And any of the successful conservation plants that zoos have had, they are all done behind closed doors.
00:52:34
Speaker
Like they are not on display and then there's information about what's happening, da-da-da-da-da, so we can watch what's going on. Like, for example, the Wyoming toad, they are breeding them in captivity in just like a bedroom sized room somewhere um in little aquariums.
00:52:57
Speaker
And, you know, like there are conservation efforts that have worked, like the black footed ferret, the Schiavalsky's horse, California condor, and then also the Wyoming toad that I just mentioned. But I feel like they're doing it all artificially. And the need for that is because these animals' this natural habitat is lost or polluted or just gone completely.
00:53:24
Speaker
So the programs need to, like quote unquote, help the animals to thrive in this new lesser version of their habitat instead of protecting the habitat and the biodiversity, like the ecosystems that support these animals and ensure that they'll thrive.
00:53:42
Speaker
Yeah, and all of these examples, it's all ex situ conservation, i.e. captive breeding, i.e. conservation outside of the natural habitat. That kind of conservation is essentially supposed to be a last resort for saving a population, for maintaining genetic variation for the purpose of rewilding.
00:54:04
Speaker
Clearly, that's not what's happening because these animals are being maintained. They maintained, like shifted across the world, like you said, and maintained for genetic variation.
00:54:15
Speaker
Again, as if they're objects for the purpose of keeping the zoos populated. Yeah. Because like we've said, the majority are not going to be rewilded. And that also brings up the point that there are a lot of animals in captivity in zoos that are not endangered.
00:54:34
Speaker
So why are they there? Yeah. If the point is conservation, how does that justify having a quote unquote ambassador for the species? For what? Yeah.
00:54:44
Speaker
They're not endangered. So that falls flat. And then you would think if conservation was really at the heart of the motives of a zoo, the majority of funding for conservation should be in-situ, i.e. in the natural habitat, which is, we discussed this previously, but I think it's the figure that I read was less than 4% of revenue for most zoos.
00:55:05
Speaker
It's probably much, much less than that. Yeah. For the majority that actually goes to in-situ conservation. Yeah. Like, why would you do that if you actually cared about conservation? Surely the majority of the funding should be going to addressing the issues in the habitat.
00:55:22
Speaker
Exactly. Not just spending money and resources to house animals that are not even endangered and just putting them through hell so that people can look at them.
00:55:33
Speaker
It makes absolutely no sense. But Taryn, they're so charismatic. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. And the whole, like, there's this idea of charismatic animals to bring in visitors, to pay the fees to get in, to make the money, the gift shops, blabbly blah, blah, blah, so that the money can go to their enclosures and to the animals.
00:55:59
Speaker
But Like, for example, at the Great Vancouver Zoo here in BC, a couple years ago, they just rebuilt the entranceway.
00:56:11
Speaker
And I'm sure i don't know what they spent on it, but I'm sure it was millions of dollars. I'm sure the GB Zoo is going to listen to this and come at me and say, no, we only spent 500.
00:56:24
Speaker
Excuse me. But no, like it is huge. And like the entranceway, like the ticket booths, that has nothing to do. That does not help the animals or give the...
00:56:38
Speaker
hippos a better enclosure or a better space. like It has nothing to do with that. And it's definitely like the percentage of money that actually like goes to any kind of conservation. Like you said, I feel like it's even, i think Rob said that less than 1%, you rarely sees anything that is more than 1%.
00:57:05
Speaker
That just shows again the capitalist interest. I'm sure a lot of zoos would claim like, oh, but we need to redo the entrance. We need to have these charismatic animals, even if they're not endangered, because it gets feet through the door.
00:57:17
Speaker
And that means we make more revenue and that means we can do more good conservation work. But that's bullshit. It's very frustrating. It really is. Another point that I wanted to raise as well is We spoke a little bit about the fact that the majority of zoos worldwide are not accredited for whatever worth accreditation has, which is debatable. But let's say we're using accreditation as the kind of gold standard or at least bare minimum.
00:57:49
Speaker
Considering how few are accredited, we also need to bear in mind that different regions of the world have different resources in general. So to try and make arguments in defense of zoos based on one gold standard zoo who has whatever conservation program going that might sound fabulous, that's not going to be applied worldwide.
00:58:13
Speaker
It's not going to be applied to all zoos, not even most zoos, not even a substantial amount of zoos. And it's ridiculous to think that, for example, a zoo in South Africa is going to have the resources that a zoo in Canada has. It's just not going to happen.
00:58:30
Speaker
And that's where I think a lot of arguments for zoos really fall short because when you say, oh, but zoos do this and zoos do that and zoos care, which zoos?
00:58:41
Speaker
How many of them? Because it's going to be a drop in the ocean. and a prime example is the Natal here in South Africa. Speaking of capitalism, that zoo is owned by the Boswell family.
00:58:58
Speaker
Who owns the Boswell Circus? Arf. They are literally in the business of exploiting animals for entertainment. On what planet do you think that the Boswell circus owner is going to give a shit about conservation?
00:59:16
Speaker
And they used to be accredited but are no longer. Surprise, surprise. And there's a really terrible story out of that zoo that's kind of resurfaced this year about this orangutan named Opal.
00:59:29
Speaker
And she's essentially been in that zoo For the majority of her life, she's been alone in an enclosure. She's 45 years old.
00:59:40
Speaker
And activists are still trying to fight to get her out. There's apparently a sanctuary who's ready to take her But who knows if and when that's going to happen. Yeah, just just to reiterate that zoos are capitalist projects that will always be exploitative.
00:59:59
Speaker
Yeah, there was a story the last like two weeks or so. um I saw shared on Instagram a bunch of times, this Danish zoo asking quote unquote owners to donate their companion animals or as they refer to them, pets.
01:00:14
Speaker
So their horses or rabbits or other small pets. for predator food. And obviously a lot of animal rights activists are appalled by this and horrified and how can you get people to give up their companion animals for food.
01:00:31
Speaker
And this is a direct quote from them. They say, if you have a healthy animal that needs to be put down. What? What? Why would you need to put an animal down if they're healthy?
01:00:43
Speaker
Just the wording of that is so bizarre. And obviously people are understandably upset by this. And I guess there's some argument to be had for being able to use animals who are already going to die rather than additional animals like chickens or whatever they would normally use to feed the predators in the zoo.
01:01:05
Speaker
But again, it comes back to we decide who dies, how and when. and I'm sure we're all shocked to find out that if you donate a horse to them, you will get a tax deduction.
01:01:22
Speaker
Okay, then. Again, capitalism. Even if you have some kind of argument that you're somehow sparing animals by quote-unquote donating, even the idea of donating, they're not a pair of shoes.
01:01:35
Speaker
No. But then people will probably say, well, it's the cycle of life. Yeah, because that whole process is so natural. Yeah. you know Anyway, now that we've got all that negativity and anger out of our system, maybe we should to end off with a yet another segment because we are now a podcast that has segments.
01:01:58
Speaker
All the segments. And the other segment that we're adding to our roster is Bites of Resistance. We want to move towards prefiguration and discuss ideas and imaginings of futures we want to see.
01:02:13
Speaker
And as well, like sharing any rad resources and groups or movements that are embodying their desired future society in the present today, like right now.
01:02:26
Speaker
So here is Bites of Resistance.
01:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, so for Bites of Resistance, like Meg said, we kind of just want to imagine different possibilities instead of just being negative and angry about what we're discussing. So i thought we could just imagine what could replace zoos and be a better alternative, if there is to be an alternative.
01:02:48
Speaker
And my thinking was... If there is anything remotely resembling a zoo, it should be only a sanctuary.
01:02:59
Speaker
We should focus on protecting environments. And if need be, we have maybe a zoo-like setup where there's ah safe space for animals to be rehabilitated if they need to or ah short-term like project-based initiative where it's a very short stay for the animal before they can be reintroduced to their habitat, or maybe buy time for ecosystem restoration.
01:03:28
Speaker
So in my mind, if there is something that looks like a zoo, it should be a very short-term temporary rehabilitation sanctuary kind of setup. Does that make sense?
01:03:39
Speaker
Yeah, it does. But an even better approach, I think, would just be to Like you had said earlier with the ants and the bees, Meg, like paying attention to the nature that is local to you and thinking about things like city design in a more sustainable way and really thinking how can we cohabit with other species in a kind of healthier and more animal friendly way where we design the ways that we live around the animals that we share space with, which I think should be a given, but it's not.
01:04:15
Speaker
No, it's not. Like in the cities, I don't know if you have these in South Africa, but there are spikes jutting out on different parts of
Alternatives to Zoos: Imagination and Community Involvement
01:04:27
Speaker
buildings so that it deters and it doesn't let cute little pigeons.
01:04:33
Speaker
um Or birds stop there and then poop. Obviously, they're worried about the poop all over the place. Yeah. Yeah, we have that too. Like things like that. it's just these animals were here first, were encroaching on them.
01:04:49
Speaker
Let's learn how to cohabitate and coexist with them. And again, that highlights the interconnections with all the injustices.
01:04:59
Speaker
We'd rather put spikes on buildings to prevent pigeons landing there, just like we'd rather make really uncomfortable park benches so that unhoused folks can't sleep there, rather than fixing the problem. Yeah, totally.
01:05:13
Speaker
um A super rad thing that I randomly found is Wild Hope. It's a series of short films, and it highlights... the intrepid changemakers who are working to restore and protect our planet.
01:05:28
Speaker
But the cool thing is, is that I didn't realize it was actually a website, like I found the episodes on YouTube, but They have a separate website that I'll will put in the show notes where you can explore and engage with the awesome work that you're watching, like kind of interact with and get connected to the things that are happening.
01:05:53
Speaker
The most recent episode, I think it's episode 40, is called Puffling Patrol. Did you watch it? I sent it to you. i did. I watched it today. It's so, oh my gosh. I love puffins so much. oh Yeah, well, that's why I was very excited about it.
01:06:11
Speaker
But light pollution confuses and disorients seabirds around the globe and it lures them towards land and obviously potentially dangerous situations.
01:06:23
Speaker
And this episode is in um the Westman Islands off the southwest coast of Iceland. And this one community has banded together to save lost young pufflins. And the story is so incredible. Like families and children are going out in the night and rescuing these babies and then they throw them off a cliff um in a good way in a good way to goodly yes had to help them fly and go off and do their thing and like another episode follows an Irish gardener Mary Reynolds who's building a movement of folks that are returning their own patch of land i mean
01:07:07
Speaker
Whose land is it really? But um they return, i think, any land that these people own, they decide to return and restore 50% it.
01:07:23
Speaker
back into nature and just let that land rewild and watch all the incredible things that happen. That's awesome. um It's so cool. And she wrote a book and I'm not a fucking gardener.
01:07:37
Speaker
I don't, I kill plants. But I went out and bought her book because I thought I could do this or read it or I don't know what. So I don't know. It's just a rad, rad thing that I found. And it gets me excited and hopeful.
01:07:54
Speaker
ah I'm so glad you found that because i've I've only watched a few episodes, but it's really inspiring because it's all these different projects where the community comes together to solve a problem in that community.
01:08:06
Speaker
And I think that's so important in being able to start where you are, basically. Like i said, i've only watched a few, but they were very inspiring and feel good and all things.
01:08:17
Speaker
So yeah, thanks for that, Meg.
01:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, I was also thinking just in terms of reimagining zoo possibilities or alternatives rather, thinking about the venues themselves that already exist and being able to transform those. You know, when we're thinking about city planning, we're thinking about these community initiatives like the ones in Wild Hope, those venues could just be completely transformed. We could have information talks, even music events, educational events, obviously no animals actually there in captivity, but there could be like realistic models. There could be fossils.
01:08:57
Speaker
And also using tech like CGI and robotics and stuff. Yeah. If you look at how excited kids get about dinosaurs, they've never seen dinosaurs. but Yeah, exactly.
01:09:08
Speaker
We could create these spaces that are such inspiring actual sites of conservation without having to have animals trapped there in captivity.
01:09:19
Speaker
It could be a place where we're imagining cool things and just having fun events that raise money for conservation. And i think imagination is such a powerful tool that is neglected. And I think by having zoos as we have them today, people are robbed of that imagining because they're just looking in front of them. Oh, there's that animal. Okay.
01:09:38
Speaker
Instead of imagining what could the world look like if we saved an ecosystem or change the way we do things or destroy capitalism, you know?
01:09:51
Speaker
Yeah, I just think we could completely revamp the venues to be something that's actually really useful.
Successful Conservation Models and Closing Remarks
01:09:58
Speaker
And on that note, there's actually an organization in South Africa. i don't know if they're an organization.
01:10:03
Speaker
ah saw it on Instagram. But it's called Future Zoos. And it's still at the crowdfunding stage at the moment. So there's not a whole lot of information, but it looks really promising.
01:10:14
Speaker
And they're basically using VR technology and like immersive tech to create these really awesome like underwater experiences and animal experiences. And it's essentially a virtual zoo.
01:10:26
Speaker
Oh, wow. Yeah, we'll definitely link that in the show notes as well. I think it's worth checking out and maybe contributing to if you want to. But that I think could be the future of zoos.
01:10:37
Speaker
Just an immersive tech experience where you feel like you are with animals in the wild without actually having to have them there. Awesome. Yeah. And then the last little bit bites of resistance that I thought of was just supporting and engaging with in-situ conservation efforts and projects that are actually working with wildlife directly.
01:11:01
Speaker
One of those, I'm sure many of you have heard of them, is Akashinga. um It's a community-led elephant anti-poaching organization. I think they started in Zimbabwe, but they've spread to like Namibia now as well. I'm not sure where else.
01:11:16
Speaker
But it's really cool because it's focused on women empowerment. So you've got women in leadership roles, all the rangers, anti-poaching rangers are women and they're trained and really have an active role in the anti-poaching project.
01:11:31
Speaker
And as an added, very cool bonus, they're plant-based as well. So unlike many conservation organizations, they actually acknowledge the role of animal agriculture in things like deforestation and habitat destruction.
01:11:46
Speaker
so there They're also a very cool example, I think, of something that could be done outside of a zoo context, because they're actually protecting elephants that are at risk of poaching for ivory And they're confronting poachers head on. It's like really dangerous work, obviously. Yeah. But it's also nice that it's connecting like being plant based. And it's also uplifting women in their communities and helping them to get themselves out of often really hard backgrounds and empowering them.
01:12:19
Speaker
And then obviously actually protecting animals in the wild. All those connections. Yeah. so i think we'll end on that positive note.
01:12:31
Speaker
Yes. And thank you everyone for listening. And also we have another thank you Very long overdue. Thank you.
01:12:42
Speaker
We want to thank Rob Laidlaw way back in March. I think we were able to have a video call with him and it was just awesome. It was wonderful.
01:12:54
Speaker
almost two hours, and he was just so full of information and so generous with his time. Thank you so much, Rob. And if you don't know who he is, he is the founder of ZooCheck, which is a Canadian-based international wildlife production charity, and it was established in 1984 to promote and protect to the interests and well-being of wild animals.
01:13:19
Speaker
Yeah. Thanks, Rob. Yeah. Thanks, Rob. Also, I wanted to give a shout out to my friend Jordan and his podcast, Animocracy, specifically episode seven from last year called Confronting Animal Captivity in Canada with Rob Laidlaw. With Rob.
01:13:37
Speaker
um It's more of a broad conversation about all things zoo and captivity. But there was a lot of it, like I think I listened to it three or four times just as research for this episode as well. There was a lot of great information in there. If you are interested in this subject, um that's another resource. So go have a listen.
01:14:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think we've definitely put a lot of things out on the table for everyone to engage with after this. The list is going to be... There's a lot of stuff there to get you started on, you know, watching cool things and listening to cool things and...
01:14:15
Speaker
reading good books and all of that. But thank you very much for listening to the episode. And we would be super stoked if you reach out to us with your thoughts or feedback, um your own stories and experiences with zoos or captive animals.
01:14:32
Speaker
um If we got something wrong, let us know. We'd love to learn from you as well. And we'd really like the podcast to be more of an interactive space. Obviously, that's very difficult with a podcast because we're talking at you essentially but we really do we really do want to hear from you as well i'm sure a lot of the people listening probably are a lot more knowledgeable than us so please share your thoughts and ideas and i guess rate and review i guess that only five stars please yes if you liked the podcast please rate and review it if you didn't please move along
01:15:09
Speaker
and do something else yeah um yeah but email us with feedback if you have any at anti-captivitypod at gmail.com or contact us on instagram also anti-captivitypod and until every cage is empty we'll talk to you soon bye bye
01:15:53
Speaker
<unk>s just getting comfortable
01:15:59
Speaker
Okay.
01:16:02
Speaker
Dusty's going for a little adventure. you're frozen, Meg. You're gone. You're back. You're back. Okay. sure I panicked. I was like, we can't do this
01:16:17
Speaker
What the fuck? I've said successful a thousand times.
01:16:24
Speaker
Sorry, Fred is...
01:16:28
Speaker
Going wild. That's quite impressive that she got up there. Dusty's just moving. This is to be so fun to edit. it