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Ep. 1. Until All Are Free
126 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to our first episode! Co-hosts Taryn & Meghan talk about how this podcast came to be and what is to come. We hope that it will evolve into a meaningful, interactive space for discourse with our listeners around the subject of captivity. Listen and let us know what you think! Dm, comment, share on Instagram, or email us with your feedback and thoughts. Let’s deconstruct the fallacy that the systems and institutions of imprisonment of any living being, are necessary or just, together.
Find us on Instagram
Check out the post on white veganism by Yvette Baker (@collectiveabolition).
Further Reading:
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast Theme
00:00:31
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the very first episode of the Anti-Captivity Podcast. I'm Taryn, I use she-her pronouns, and I'm based in Johannesburg, South Africa. And I'm Meghan and I also use she-her pronouns, and I'm in Vancouver, BC, which is on the unceded Coast Salish territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Laututh nations in so-called Canada.
00:00:53
Speaker
And as the name suggests, this podcast centers around human and other animal captivity, and we'll be discussing everything from the ethics of zoos and aquariums to present abolition. So for this first episode, we just want to introduce ourselves and give you a bit of background on how we started this podcast and give you an idea of what you can expect from future episodes.
Megan's Past Projects and Reflections
00:01:15
Speaker
Yes, so some background, specifically because we took over the Instagram of a project that I did a while back. The summer of 2020, I started a podcast and Instagram account called radicalize the roots. I recorded three episodes and ran the Instagram for I think it was about six months. And just to give everyone a heads up. I am a descendant of white settlers and I have a lot of privilege. And so I realized that what I was wanting to talk about and have conversations about on this podcast and Instagram, which was racism across Canada, was not a space for me to take up. And during that time, I learned so much and continue to do so, of course, about the very uh prominent biases and violence in Canada towards racialized folks.
00:02:10
Speaker
Now there's this trope with Canada that people say it's not like that in Canada or it's not that bad there. And that is so far from the truth. I was finding that I was finding so many incredible people and accounts that were already doing this work on social media and telling their own stories and life experiences.
00:02:34
Speaker
um I was definitely on the verge of stepping away from this project when I saw this post from Ijeoma Oluo where she wrote, I am not interested in the memification of anti-racist and social justice work. I'm not interested in making this over 400 year complex system simple for white people to digest. And I'm not trying to give you an easy way to feel like you have been doing something just by reading a post.
00:03:03
Speaker
And looking back, that I that's basically what I was doing. I was creating posts that were regurgitating information that was already out there. So I just stopped and put the account on hiatus. I didn't really know if I was going to do anything else with it. But then a couple years later, I had an inkling to start something new around the captivity of animals. But that just didn't happen. so it was still in limbo. and Around the same time, or a little after Meg was doing radicalize the roots, which if you haven't listened to that, the episodes are still up, so definitely go check them out because they're still a good listen. I had been wanting to start my own podcast for a while as well, but was kind of putting it all for a whole host of reasons.
00:03:51
Speaker
So when Meg asked me to be a part of this project, I was immediately keen because I know we're very well aligned with our politics. We're both very keen on learning and challenging ourselves. So I'm hoping this can be one part of really taking a step further the discussions we would normally have anyway, but engaging in more in-depth discussions and learning together and also building community with anyone who listens and anyone who wants to learn with us.
00:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, we want to do something slightly different with this podcast, really bring home that it is a stepping stone for all of us within our lifetime of unlearning and learning that is needed. We want to engage and encourage further steps into action. And it's about finding the balance, especially for privileged white folks like us.
00:04:46
Speaker
the balance of not taking up space, of knowing when to pass the mic, but also actively engaging in supporting and building community. Definitely. And you mentioned the memification of social justice work. And I think that raises an important point about the value and limitations of online activism and even podcasts like this.
00:05:11
Speaker
kind of echoing what you just said, but the quote you read I think makes really clear that it shouldn't be on marginalized folks to educate others on why they're thinking or behavior is oppressive. And none of us should feel like gaining a superficial understanding of any issues outside of our lived experience is going to magically result in change. I think we need to center the work that's being done by marginalized folks that we all benefit from.
00:05:41
Speaker
And we also need to recognize when we are taking up space, as opposed to when we should be rather elevating the work of others. And I think when we are in a privileged position to not have to do this work as a matter of our own personal survival, then hopefully we can contribute by educating ourselves and those around us as best we can and finding ways to support and participate in real change. Yes.
Animal Rights and Oppression
00:06:10
Speaker
I guess that brings us to the question, why anti-captivity specifically? um For me, years ago when I was immersed in animal rights, I started that 11 years ago, all things anti-captivity really hit me harder and differently than everything else. The animals in cages and you know, the whales in tanks, all the animals big and small, the cognitive dissonance that people have and had about needing to see these animals in real life. I just didn't get it, like that they didn't see the suffering that was happening. It just made my blood boil.
00:06:54
Speaker
But then through learning about the toxicity of mainstream white veganism and wanting to be more engaged in all anti-oppression, I could see certain connections between the feeling of rage that I was getting when I saw captive animals and then the injustices within the prison industrial complex and all forms of imprisonment. I was always wanting to learn more about prison abolition But I never really, I mean, I read books and stuff, but I never really went too deep, deep. Although I did do an online workshop for writing to prisoners, which was really cool.
00:07:38
Speaker
but I knew I didn't want to get back into mainstream vegan activism. I could see myself doing anti-zoo and aquarium work, but just not the mainstream stuff. And then I was walking my sweet dog one day this past December and I had the light bulb moment of doing a project, doing a podcast that explores the connections of animal captivity and then carceral systems.
00:08:06
Speaker
and asking Taryn to do it with me. I don't know why I didn't think of this. i don't know what We didn't think of this like years before, yeah.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I think highlighting the connections between different forms of captivity and imprisonment is a huge part of understanding the dynamics of oppression in general. So I think those connections are one of the reasons that I'm really keen to do this podcast as well. And you mentioned white veganism, which for anyone not familiar with the term isn't just us referring to vegans who happen to be white. It's a big chunk of the mainstream kind of vegan animal rights movement that very often disregards the connections between the approach of humans and other animals. There are a lot of great resources online on the topic, including a post by Yvette Baker. If you don't follow her, she's on Instagram under a collective abolition, definitely worth a follow. But she did a post on white veganism that's really, really worth a read. So we'll leave a link to that in the show notes.
00:09:11
Speaker
But I think we'll just go over a few points so that it's clear what we're actually talking about when we say what veganism. And a major aspect that I've alluded to already is that many people within the vegan kind of mainstream movement will proudly assert that they're vegan for the animals and that they only care about other animals. Yeah, because when I went vegan 11 years ago, I went into activism like right away, right alongside. And so I was inundated with these black and white messages that the animals were the most important. And I remember being at a Canada goose protest. We were doing this campaign to get Canada goose jackets out of stores and
00:10:02
Speaker
There were people that would walk by us and say things like, what about the Trans Mountain Pipeline? that That's what was going on at the time at SFU on the mountain there. Or what else would they say? They would say, what about the starving children in Africa? And in my mind at that time, I thought, well, folks are already doing stuff for those causes. Folks are already up there protesting to shut down the pipeline and you know sending money to African children. And just this whole, just saying it out loud right now, it's very embarrassing because that is ridiculous. Obviously, if these things were not around, if the pipeline wasn't there and there were no starving children,
00:10:53
Speaker
then we wouldn't need to be fighting for the rights of these people. And just to think that animals are the ones that are the only ones that need the help and we have to like hyper focus on just them is bananas.
Critique of Mainstream Veganism
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, and the irony is that a lot of activists will use comparisons to other oppressions to guilt marginalized folks into being vegan, rather than actually sincerely trying to understand and collaborate with other movements. So they're happy to use comparisons between humans who are imprisoned and animals on factory farms, but there's no real solidarity there. It's kind of almost ignoring these other issues, but being willing to use them as a tool, which is pretty gross. Super gross. Yeah, and there's this thing about um
00:11:58
Speaker
animal rights that where there's this purity politics where you have to be, like I said before, very black and white thinking with regards to what you're wearing and like someone is vegan only if they have everything all vegan, vegan, vegan. That wasn't very eloquent, but I'm just going to keep going. But it's so odd because I remember years ago there was a lot of talk and praise for the IOF, the Israeli occupation forces, having vegan army boots and having vegan wool berets and being vegan.
00:12:41
Speaker
and They're an army, like they're a military force killing humans and doing all sorts of other stuff, but that makes it okay because they wear vegan boots and they don't hurt they don't hurt animals, quote unquote. Yeah, that's what's so frustrating. I mean, a lot is frustrating right now, but just seeing the genocide in Palestine and seeing the silence of a lot of animal rights activists.
00:13:08
Speaker
is baffling to me because it's almost as if they had literally do not care at all. And it should be unsurprising because of how animal-only focus they are. But then you see videos of IOF soldiers shooting animals for fun. And you think about all the animals that are harmed in any kind of conflict situation, but especially in a genocide where whole areas are just being bombed. And still the vegans, many of the vegans are silent. ah it's It's very confusing. We'll have to do a whole episode on Palestine. Yeah, we'll have to get ready for a big rant. Yes, yes.
00:13:55
Speaker
Another thing that's really gross and annoying is that white veganism focuses specifically, specifically on white men, despite a lot of work and knowledge coming from racialized folks. Yeah, they seem to be the ones who take up a lot of space, especially in terms of like quote unquote, vegan influences and the ones who get platformed at veg fests or whatever. It just seems like the so-called leaders of the movement are often a bunch of white guys. And it's kind of just an extension of white supremacy at this point. And a complete disregard of the effects of colonialism, capitalism, is just kind of replicating the hierarchies we see in broader society.
00:14:51
Speaker
Mm-hmm and it tries to be a single issue and a political like Within the animal rights movement. I remember being really annoyed seeing non vegans coming to Zoo protests or fur protests But that also gave it the air of okay. Well, this is actually something that we might be able to get Get through to people because non vegans will come into it But then when you span out a little bit, like vegans are only, pardon me, I'm speaking of mainstream activists. There are a lot of wonderful, wonderful vegans out there. um This mainstream toxic space that we're talking about here is just single issue with regards to non-human animals.
00:15:47
Speaker
and anything to do with ah racialized folks or disability justice or queer and LGBTQ2SIA plus folks. It's just non-existent because the animals come first. And if you don't if you aren't vegan and wearing vegan boots, like the Israeli army, then you can't join us in our fight.
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. I was definitely one of those vegans early on as well. I would get so frustrated when people would do activism for animals, but not be vegan. And that's a valid critique. It's valid to be like, Hey, have you considered the fact that you're advocating for animals stuck in zoos, but then afterwards you're going to eat animal flesh. So it's a valid critique, but It's just so strange because it's seen as like the pinnacle of morality to be vegan, as if you've got everything else figured out. Now you've got to make sure yeah everyone is vegan. And you mentioned them trying to be apolitical, which is just not a thing. Like, what is that? Everything is political. Oh, yeah, like all the
00:17:05
Speaker
I remember all the infographics of if if you're a feminist and not vegan, you're not a real feminist. And the same thing with environmentalists and what have you. Yeah. And again, those a points are valid critiques, but it's about engaging with other movements and learning from them and not thinking that you're this perfect activist just because you're vegan. Even though the people who claim to be apolitical, what that really means is They're trying to take this approach that they will call inclusive. They'll say, we're just here for the animals. We need as many people as possible. We need everyone to go vegan. So anyone who's vegan is welcome because we're fighting for the animals. And then when you call them out and say, hey, but you're platforming this man who's been called out for sexual assault,
00:17:59
Speaker
or you're platforming this person who is overtly racist, they'll turn around and claim that you're harming the movement and by making it smaller, because if you exclude activists of any kind, then we're doing an injustice to the animals. But what they're failing to realize is by including those people in activist spaces, you're automatically pushing out whole groups of people who feel unsafe by the presence of a misogynist or a racist. So it's really counterproductive that there's this attitude of
00:18:37
Speaker
Like you said, purity politics where there are these super harsh standards of being a real vegan. But at the same time, you're totally welcome even if you're a harmful piece of trash as long as yourethere for animals. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's what it comes down to. So you'll notice that we are both very passionate about animal liberation. In case it wasn't obvious, we are both vegan.
00:19:04
Speaker
We might be ya bashing mainstream veganism, but there are a lot of great vegans out there, like you mentioned, we're just being critical, but we are both still vegan. I'm good at that. But we just want to reiterate that we see this project as being part of a broader struggle for collective liberation. So while captivity is only one part of that,
00:19:29
Speaker
It's still broad enough for us to be able to explore the connections between movements while we develop a deeper understanding than if we just try to cover everything we see as important. And with everything that's going on in the world, it can be really overwhelming, really depressing.
00:19:47
Speaker
I definitely sometimes feel like I don't know where to start with anything because there's just too much. o So we really just want to highlight the fact that this podcast, while it has a relatively narrow focus, it's always within the larger scope of collective liberation.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yes, and I'd like to acknowledge at this point my skill set, like my experience with all of these subjects. I have a lot of experience with zoo and aquarium animal rights and that sort of captivity. I've co-organize many protests. I've gone into these places to do direct action. As well, I've gone into the Greater Vancouver Zoo many times. I don't know how many to get footage and documentation to kind of show the cruelty that's going on inside. And on the other side of that, Taryn, you've seen all these incredible animals in the wild because where you live,
00:20:51
Speaker
lucky duck. I mean, I've seen urban animals, I've seen deer and bears from a far and those kind of animals that are here in North America. But as far as exotic animals,
00:21:06
Speaker
like the big five, that's all Taryn But through our many conversations leading up to this first episode, I found out from you that things aren't always the perfect thing that I think it is over in Africa where you get to see animals in the wild.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, I guess for me, I have very limited experience outside of more academics and going to some basic circus protests and things like that. But as you mentioned, living in South Africa, we do get to see ah a lot of really incredible animals.
00:21:45
Speaker
out in the wild, but that's definitely not without its own issues and kind of a long list of exploitative practices, um which I'm sure we'll get to in future episodes. But I can definitely understand why you feel especially passionate about advocating for animals held captive in zoos and aquariums. The depravity of keeping a free roaming animal in a tiny enclosure, which is so far removed,
00:22:15
Speaker
from their natural habitat is just, you would think it's glaringly obvious, but it's actually unfortunately celebrated. It's celebrated as conservation, as education, as appreciation for species. It's really frustrating that people have such clear cognitive dissonance. And it's almost more understandable when people have cognitive dissonance about eating animal flesh, because that kind of exploitation is often kept hidden. In the case of factory farming, you don't see what's going on. But going to a circus or going to zoos is seen as like this wholesome family outing. Yeah, it makes no sense. It makes no sense. And then
00:23:07
Speaker
for prison abolition with that part of things for this podcast.
Focus on Systems of Oppression, Not Direct Comparisons
00:23:12
Speaker
Myself, I want to make very clear that I am no expert. I don't have much or really any experience with this movement, but the transition from my beginnings within the toxic mainstream vegan movement into an understanding of anti-oppression ah social justice and all of those things I can see the parallels like the systems not comparisons of animals and humans like I'm not we're not going to do that but this podcast is against the systems that are in place and we're not going to be comparing the animals to humans in different capacities when in cages or prisons I
00:23:54
Speaker
feel like I repeated myself there four times, but we really want to make sure that that is very, very clear. Yeah, I think that's really important for us to state from the start, because there are a lot of people who use those comparisons, like we've already mentioned in really problematic ways.
00:24:13
Speaker
When we draw parallels here, it's with the methods and the strategies employed by the oppressor. We're focusing on the overall systems and the way the systems work. We're not trying to flatten the experience of victims and equate victims or make it seem like it's exactly the same thing because it's not. But a lot of the time the methods used in those systems are the same or similar. Yeah.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah. And I just wanted to tell this story of the online course that I was signed up for, that I was signed up for to start in September and end in February, which is now. um and I realized that it's, that is not how I best absorb and learn about new things, like new things that I want to study. And that's not how I actually want to learn.
00:25:13
Speaker
through talking about this podcast and thinking about what we can do with it, I realized that that is what excites me about learning and researching. Cause I don't feel this weird pressure that I was feeling with the course. I just had this real block, like this wall went up and I just couldn't do the work and I didn't do it, which is fine.
00:25:39
Speaker
But this podcast has been a bit of a, this is how I'm going to dive into some of the topics that we will be talking about. And this is how I want to learn and educate myself from a place of openness and curiosity and yeah, like diving deep into research each month and having critical conversations with friends and family and obviously with you, Taryn.
Non-formal Education and Podcast Interaction
00:26:05
Speaker
So I'm excited that I've come to this space where I don't feel shitty about my lack of higher education and that me reading 62 books in a year like I did last year is incredible, by the way, a fucking rad thing. And that does count.
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely echo that sentiment, you know, Meg, that I've also had my fair amount of struggles in the academic space and finding motivation and getting over blocks and all of those things. And I think a lot of the time, the learning that you're speaking about can be overlooked because it's not formalized. You know, there's no like peer review and verification of everything you say and do. But I think the kind of learning that we want to encourage here is really important because a lot of people don't have access to formal education. And even buying an in-depth book on a topic can be overwhelming for a lot of people. It's not something that's accessible either financially or
00:27:21
Speaker
you know If you're not coming from an academic space, just diving into an academic book, it's difficult. yeah It's difficult to learn. I can't read that shit. yeah I think when you're learning because you're passionate about something, often you'll grasp things better than if you're just having to adhere to some looming deadline.
00:27:42
Speaker
I'm also definitely more comfortable in a non-academic space. So I'm excited for this. I think we're going to have some awesome discussions and hopefully engage with a lot of different people. who Yeah. And that's what this podcast is going to be, that we are all, by myself, you, the listeners, we're all learning together. And we just want to make sure that folks don't think that we're experts on specifically, specifically the subject of carscerality I feel like we know our shit around animal captivity and we'll, we can dive deep there, but we're doing this because it's important to have these conversations and we want to have it be, I don't know if this is the right word, but we want it to be fun. Like we're talking about, we're going to be talking about some heavy stuff.
00:28:31
Speaker
But that's just the word that comes to mind that we're going to have fun with this and we're going to share what we've learned and be in dialogue with each other and the listeners and just all do it together in a in a positive and welcoming way. Definitely. In future episodes, I'm sure we're going to have guests on that are much more knowledgeable than us and can help us to better understand certain topics. and Equally, we're very keen to hear from listeners. so If you have questions about
00:29:05
Speaker
anything that you've been thinking about or feedback or info to share or guest or topic suggestions. We want this to be a collaborative space as collaborative as a one direction bit of audio can be. But for now, hopefully this very short first episode has given you an idea of what we're wanting to do with the podcast and hopefully you'll come back and learn with us as we go.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yes, and at this point we are not sure if episodes will be released once or twice a month, but monthly for sure to start. That's what we're aiming for. So we have some good time in between to read and learn as much as possible.
00:29:48
Speaker
Yeah. And on that note, if you do have any suggestions or feedback on this episode or questions, you can email us at anti-captivitypod at gmail.com. And we're now also under the Instagram handle anti-captivitypod. It was the radicalize the roots account, as Meg mentioned. So if you were following Meg and radicalize the roots, you already follow us. Sorry, not sorry. Yes.
00:30:18
Speaker
To end off, many great humans have said a variation of this quote. ah Jewish poet Emma Lazarus in 1883, Fannie Lou Hammer in 1971, also Martin Luther King Jr., Maya Angelou, Audre Lorde, Nelson Mandela. It's a big one. But we'll we'll go with Fannie Lou's. Nobody's free until everybody's free.
00:30:45
Speaker
So for now, until all are free, we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.
00:31:17
Speaker
Oh, oops, sorry. That's okay. I don't know what's going on. Fuck. My brain is shutting down. Oops, there. Can't go away. I can't think.