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Ep. 5. Selective Empathy: Punch and the Power of Individual Stories
39 Plays2 months ago
For this episode, Meghan and Taryn discuss selective empathy and the power of individual stories. Why is it that some individual stories capture people so intensely? And why do some stories garner empathy and attention, but others don’t in the same way? We use the recent(ish) story of Punch, the Japanese macaque monkey at the Ichikawa City Zoo, as a starting point in exploring this phenomenon. Being The Anti-Captivity Podcast, it’s easy to come up with negatives to these sorts of stories, but are there any positives? Listen to Episode 5 to find out!
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Episode Resources and Mentions:
Humane World article
Stories from a wildlife vet
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Anti-Captivity Podcast
00:00:31
Speaker
Hey everyone, and welcome to episode 5 of the Anti-Captivity Podcast. I'm Taryn, here as always with my lovely co-host Megan. Hello!
Exploring Selective Empathy Through Punch's Story
00:00:41
Speaker
Today we are talking about selective empathy and the power of individual stories, and why is it that some individual stories capture people so intensely.
00:00:52
Speaker
We're going to be focusing on the recent-ish story of Punch to explore this. So just a little bit about him before we get into the full discussion later in the episode.
00:01:04
Speaker
He's a Japanese macaque at Chiba Prefecture's Ichikawa City Zoo in Japan. And in February 2026, when he was seven months old, he went viral.
00:01:17
Speaker
There were sort of two key things other than the him being super cute, obviously. He was being kind of quote unquote bullied by other adult macaques.
00:01:30
Speaker
And he had a little buddy that brought him solace and orangutan stuffy. The pictures of him cuddling that stuffy are next level sweet, of course.
Controversial Experiments of Harry Harlow
00:01:41
Speaker
But before we get into that, we're going to do our segment History Bites, which is looking back, whether far away history or more recent, with regards to anything that is relevant to what we're talking about in the episode.
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:04
Speaker
And for today's History Bites, we are discussing a guy named Harry Harlow. He was an American psychologist and he became really well known for some monkey experiments, specifically rhesus monkeys that he experimented on that are now kind of classics in behavior science.
00:02:22
Speaker
So in the 1950s and 60s, behaviorists and psychoanalysts pretty much believed that babies were attached to their mothers based purely on survival and food and that sort of thing.
00:02:34
Speaker
And Harlow and his colleagues thought that love, comfort, companionship, stuff like that were also important, which sounds pretty reasonable, but he did some really horrendous experiments to prove that.
00:02:47
Speaker
And the reason that his story i thought was quite relevant to the story of Punch is because he experimented on rhesus monkeys. And in those experiments, or the main experiments anyway, he actually separated them from their mothers and sometimes from their peers as well to see the effect of...
00:03:05
Speaker
social and behavioral development from that separation from their mothers. So if you think of Punch being separated from his mother, which we'll get into in a bit, he experimented on these poor sweet monkeys and placed them with what he referred to as surrogate mothers.
00:03:23
Speaker
But they were basically these contraptions made of, the one was made of like wire and wood, and the other was covered in foam and cloth. So it was more cuddly, I suppose. And in his famous experiment, he would alternate which of these surrogate mothers had a bottle attached for food. And he was testing where the monkeys would return to for comfort, or if they would return for comfort, or where they would prefer to go. and he would like scare them with loud sounds and test for their fear responses and see where they would go. And basically, without fail, the monkeys preferred the cloth surrogate mother. So it was obviously very groundbreaking for attachment research, but really, really torturous for the monkeys.
00:04:12
Speaker
um There are actually some YouTube videos of the experiments, which I watched a couple of them, but I wouldn't recommend. They're not fun to watch. Yeah, too they are not.
00:04:23
Speaker
But he even did other experiments where he would isolate monkeys to pretty much their psychological breaking point. um He had one called the Pit of Despair.
00:04:35
Speaker
Gross. Yeah, there was one where he was looking at the effect of abusive parents on development and he had the same sort of surrogate setup, but there would be loud noises or bursts of high pressure air that shot out of the mothers and the babies would still cling even tighter to the cloth mother.
00:04:55
Speaker
my God, fuck. Yeah, I'm not a fun guy to learn about, but I think it's important just to keep that in mind because there are still animals that get tested on in labs, maybe not to the same extent.
Animal Testing vs. Viral Empathy
00:05:07
Speaker
But I think we have to ask ourselves, aside from the fact that this was in the past before social media, even if it was done today, would we hear about it? Would we have the same reaction as we do to someone like Punch? Mm-hmm.
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I did look up um a little bit when you said you were going to be talking about that for History Bites. And the thing that was so annoying and just ah was that, you know, a lot of times, even sometimes for criticizing Harlow,
00:05:45
Speaker
there would always be a caveat at the end saying, you know, yes, there was torture and fear inducing, you know, fucked up tactics and experiments that would never probably fly today.
00:05:57
Speaker
But it's how we have attachment theory now, or it really helped to figure all of that stuff out. And it's just like, at what cost? Just the whole thinking of those little baby monkeys things.
00:06:16
Speaker
objects and things that have no no inherent right to live. Yeah. And I suppose we still see that today with research on animals is that there's always the scientific justification, so it's not so bad.
00:06:32
Speaker
But if you look at the footage, if you do go and watch some of those YouTube videos, as heartbreaking as they are, they're not unlike punch. Yeah. the him Obviously, because those animals are in labs, they're hidden from public view.
00:06:45
Speaker
you know If somehow that footage did get out into the public in today's times, I just wonder, would there be the same outcry? like What would be more prevalent, the justification that it's for science or...
00:06:59
Speaker
the outpouring of love and empathy for these monkeys? Because if you look at the video, they're just as cute as Punch. They're in a similar situation, separated from their mother.
00:07:11
Speaker
So would people, I guess my question is, would people have as much empathy if they saw those monkeys today? Or is there something different in how we respond to different stories?
00:07:24
Speaker
I think it's definitely different because... I feel like with regards to testing on animals, there is still always this cognitive dissonance for so many people because maybe people have a loved one who benefited from the research that was done on this animal or that or this testing or that or whatever.
00:07:51
Speaker
whatever that might be. And so for them, their loved one's life is definitely worth more than these animals that are being tested on.
00:08:04
Speaker
And there are sometimes, you know, undercover investigations of people getting into labs and like filming fucked up shit, like very similar to what these baby monkeys went through years and years ago.
00:08:24
Speaker
But it's just like a little blip in time. Like people are outraged, but then time passes and it's like, okay, next. And to me, most of the people who are outraged are people who are already in animal rights spaces and advocating against these things. Yes. These stories don't gain as much traction in the kind of general public. know And like you were talking about the benefits, like you know someone's family members benefited from some research, but all of us have, right? Yeah, that's so true. The whole of modern medicine is based on research on other animals. So we have all benefited and we have to look at how we got here and how we can do things differently.
00:09:06
Speaker
Even though ethics has come a long way in terms of how we treat other animals, despite all the negatives that still happen, I still don't think there would be as much outcry if people saw what was happening today. Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker
No, I agree.
Punch's Viral Story and Selective Empathy
00:09:23
Speaker
But let's talk a bit more about Punch and his story and why why his story went as viral as it did. Punch
00:09:35
Speaker
Okay, so let's get into Punch's story. um As I said before, he's a captive Japanese macaque at the Ichikawa City Zoo in Japan. And he was abandoned by his mother shortly after birth in July 2025. And a zookeeper had the idea to give him a stuffy, specifically an orangutan.
00:09:57
Speaker
And it did work to help him with being abandoned. It did work. He clung to it right away and didn't let go. And his abandonment and specialized care was handled internally by the zoo.
00:10:11
Speaker
And in in mid-January this year, the reintroduction to the troop began, but without any widespread public attention. And then, February 5th, the zoo...
00:10:26
Speaker
on Twitter or X or whatever the fuck it's called, did a post about Punch. And that's what kind of started the viralness of this cute little monkey.
00:10:39
Speaker
But then because he was so now a global celeb, Then later in February, a video went viral of Punch being dragged around by an adult monkey and he was screeching and then he finally got away and ran, still screeching, to his stuffy for comfort.
00:11:01
Speaker
So I guess, you know the fact that he got that stuffy was pretty great and it by no means is a replacement for a mother and it's not going to give the attachment it needs in order for him to develop properly, but it did give him an avenue to retreat to that in the moments of certain stressful situations did help a little bit.
00:11:30
Speaker
So I guess that was a rad call for the zookeeper. And to me, that kind of brings up that whole piece of the fact that most likely many um,
00:11:42
Speaker
People who do work in zoos really do love the animals that they care for. But then it's kind of this weird juxtaposition of, you know, making it as nice as possible.
00:11:56
Speaker
But you're still working within captivity and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. so there's that image of Punch.
00:12:07
Speaker
cuddling this orangutan that everyone just went bananas for. Yeah. Did you see pictures? I think anyone who's been on the internet this year at all would have seen pictures of punch.
00:12:21
Speaker
Everyone was talking about punch and crying about punch. And there are literal fan pages. Yeah. for Punch. And even people who are not really normally outspoken about anything related to other animals were posting, sharing, crying.
00:12:40
Speaker
You know, there were all the memes about like, I literally can't handle the internet today because if I see Punch again, I'm just going to fall apart sort of thing. Yeah. And that like, I think specifically with regards to him clinging to that stuffy as ah a coping mechanism and a way to kind of feel safe in response to the other monkeys not taking him in or being aggressive towards him. But the thing is, is that Japanese macaques, they live in very strict metrilineal dominance hierarchies, which means that there are dominant families and subordinate families. And the dominant animals show aggression, and then the sub-animals
00:13:26
Speaker
respond appropriately with sort of a sub-signal, and then everyone stays happily in their place. Feels strange, and you know but that's just the way their species functions. And so while it does look like bullying, and it looks quite confronting because Punch is an infant whose mother rejected him and he's all alone, it is just sort of a normal part of macaque society to have that sort of dynamic.
00:13:56
Speaker
And so I think a lot of folks don't realize that the world out there in nature and wildlife, there is a lot of this kind of hectic, as you would say, ah intense stuff going on. And it's not this like, fluffy, happy thing.
00:14:19
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, a lot of the time in the wild, in natural habitats, things are more intense. That's not to say that zoos are great and the situation is great, but you know in the wild, Punch probably would have died without his mom. yeah There's a lot of stuff that's overlooked when people are freaking out about the situation. And again, not justifying zoos because that whole situation is- no terrible but um i think the reason people latched on to punch so much was just because of those images of him cuddling this stuffed toy and it was heartbreaking to see like he's this cute little lonely animal yeah and yeah i guess knowing how much of that happens in the wild and he's not by any means the only sad story of the baby animal that's lost their mother, you know, why does everybody know about him?
00:15:16
Speaker
i mean, there have been other viral stories, though, which are viral for different reasons. Like if we look at Harambe, I'm sure most people will remember in the Cincinnati Zoo in 2016, Harambe, who was gorilla, was shot and killed because a small child fell into his enclosure.
00:15:39
Speaker
Really tragic. The child was fine, but obviously it's a really scary situation. And Harambe had kind of grabbed onto the child and dragged him across the enclosure. But some people argued after the fact that it looked like he was trying to protect the child. But, you know, obviously it's uncertain. Right.
00:15:56
Speaker
Yeah. See, that's what I would have thought right away. He's like, oh, he's just trying to protect him. Yeah. But obviously it's scary at the time. Yeah. And i believe the zoo said...
00:16:06
Speaker
that sedation wasn't an option because it would take too long. And of course, then you don't know how the animal's going to react to the sedatives, if he's going to get more aggressive or confused or whatever.
00:16:18
Speaker
So that was their rationale to say, well, we have to kill this animal. So Obviously, a really tragic story. Great that the child was okay in the end. But that went viral, but I think for a different reason. There was no like cute factor there. Yeah, totally. So whereas Punch is like this cute, cuddly animal that we feel sorry for.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yes, people felt sorry for Harambe and a lot of people were angry that he got shot, especially because it's not his fault the child fell in. saw a lot of anger, i remember, towards the mother. Like, how could you let your child fall in? Which, yes, to be fair, watch your child if you're around these enclosures. But also, kids are squirmy, quick little creatures. You know, they can disappear in a second. Yes, they are.
00:17:03
Speaker
yeah So, you know, i wouldn't blame the mother, but I think more than Punch's story, Harambe's story did raise questions about captivity. Because it was like, why did the zoo make that decision?
00:17:17
Speaker
Why is there even an opportunity to fall into an enclosure? Are they not safe? Right. Yeah. There were more questions about captivity there.
Comparing Harambe and Punch: Impact on Captivity
00:17:25
Speaker
because of the tragic outcome. But I still don't think very much.
00:17:31
Speaker
Yes, people questioned zoos and were angry about the outcome, but there was no real systemic change that came from that. I feel like there was outrage, but then it dissipated really quickly. Yeah. And the solution was to kill Harambe and then like, okay, that's what we do if this kind of thing happens. yeah Yeah. He did nothing wrong and he got killed. And there were lots of other stories where primates have been killed either because they've tried to attack people or after they've tried to escape.
00:18:03
Speaker
And sometimes ah primates are killed by human error. There was one that I read about in Canada where a hydraulic door closed on a gorilla because of human error.
00:18:14
Speaker
Oh my God. And those are stories that don't go viral. Like we don't hear about those because that would really call into question the validity of zoos and captivity. So they could just get kind of like brushed aside. And again, there's no cute story. There's no.
00:18:30
Speaker
No, no. I feel like it's either something cute or a human could be harmed or was harmed. That's kind of where the viral appeal comes from. Mm-hmm.
00:18:42
Speaker
And usually with that, if someone's been harmed, that's more of a kind of new story and more like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this happened. dud-da du- duda du-da-da And just kind of stays in that realm rather than the cuteness thing just goes bananas all over. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:06
Speaker
And I feel like as well, when it comes to someone being harmed, there would be critiques of that specific zoo, maybe. And, oh, why was the enclosure made like this? Why were these decisions made?
00:19:20
Speaker
But that's kind of where it stops. It doesn't go to a bigger, broader question of like, why are these animals in captivity? Yeah, they'll just adapt the enclosure, make the balls higher or make the locks more complicated, but I feel like these animals are smart and they'll figure things out.
00:19:43
Speaker
Yeah. um But you had ah you had another example of a viral story as well, right?
Viral Appeal: Mu Deng and Baby Animal Features
00:19:49
Speaker
Yeah. Mu Deng, who is ah pygmy hippopotamus at the Khao Khao Open Zoo in Chonburi province in Thailand.
00:20:01
Speaker
She gained widespread attention as an internet meme at two months old after photos of her went viral in September 2024. Did you know about her?
00:20:14
Speaker
I feel like I missed the whole mooding. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention. I don't know. But when you when you mentioned that you were going to talk about her, i was like, who are you talking about?
00:20:25
Speaker
And then I looked her up and there were a couple of memes that I did recognize, hey but I didn't know her name or anything like that. If you didn't mention, I wouldn't have remembered.
00:20:36
Speaker
So somehow I missed the hype of that story. Yeah. Yeah, and also because we are in a bubble of fuck zoos kind of people for the most part. So that makes sense, I would think. But yeah for many, many folks outside of that bubble, Deng makes a compelling case for cute animal worship in their eyes. Her name translates to bouncy pork. which I'm just going to move on from.
00:21:05
Speaker
ah She's sassy. She runs around her enclosure and bites her keeper's legs. And thousands of people per day would go see her in person. And the zoo pumps out Mudang content on social media to satisfy her adoring fans.
00:21:24
Speaker
And there's a 24-hour live stream where viewers chat about buying Mudang t-shirts and They watch her snooze with her mom in a pond and just doing all this stuff. And it's, I guess, very easy to get swept up in all of it because there's so much, like it's pandemonium.
00:21:47
Speaker
Everything is all about her. Wow, 24-hour live streams. I didn't know it was to that extent. I know, right? And there is discussion that the reason why we are um flipping out over her is because of a basic part of our nature, our drive to care for infants, because she is this baby, a baby animal, which I think we all love baby animals.
00:22:17
Speaker
Yes, me too. Yeah. But there's a research professor named Danielle Kruger who found that people are attracted to baby animals that share features with human babies.
00:22:30
Speaker
These features include round faces, enlarged eyes, large foreheads, and small chins. And that's what Mudang looks like like. She pushes all our buttons, he says. And she's pudgy like an infant. She has cute movements. She's roly-poly and does fun things.
00:22:47
Speaker
And the pull to care for infants is one of the foundations of success for humans. So this is so powerful that it cuts across species. So that seems to be why people are probably so drawn to her, even though it's obvious her cuteness.
00:23:05
Speaker
But there's this next level of obsession that's a little bit intense, like people are saying I would kill and die to protect her.
00:23:17
Speaker
And I guess that's that's why she is designed to be cute. And we are designed by evolution, supposedly, to find her to be cute and want to hug her and pet her.
00:23:28
Speaker
So that has been Ding just everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. But another piece to or her story is just the weird way people talk about her.
00:23:43
Speaker
Like, she's the curvy it girl, cute, moist, and unbothered. She's just a hunk of slippery love. Like, i don't know. It's just weird really weird and exploitative. And I mean, they're all exploited, obviously. But it's just this, I don't know. I just, I can't put into words.
00:24:05
Speaker
That was something I was going to point out with Punch as well, those anthropomorphic projections. We're attracted to these stories because we see ourselves in them somehow or our humanity.
00:24:18
Speaker
Like with Punch, you feel sorry for this little baby animal cuddling a stuffed toy and you think, oh, he's lonely and you're projecting all of these, yeah, sometimes valid emotions onto the animal because we share a lot of emotions and traits and stuff with other animal species.
00:24:35
Speaker
But there's a another level of projecting onto them, whether it's their physical features or their emotional capacities or their emotional state.
00:24:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's just us putting our own stuff on them and then thinking that we love them as individuals, but what we're actually loving is the projection of human qualities onto them.
Human Traits and Animal Perception in Media
00:24:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:58
Speaker
Yeah. Like there are so many examples of that where we're anthropomorphizing animals, but these animals and stories go viral because of that.
00:25:13
Speaker
But it's because of certain animals' its features, like dolphins look like they're smiling. but it's just their face. And some of these expressions that we think are like, oh, they're happy. Oh, they're so excited.
00:25:28
Speaker
But it's actually facial expressions of stress responses. There was that article that you sent me about all of this kind of stuff. And slow lorises have large doe eyes that make them look cuddly and docile, but they're actually the world's only venomous primates.
00:25:49
Speaker
And there are videos of them like raising their arms when they're being tickled. And it's like, oh my gosh, that's so cute. But they raise their arms to access the venom stored in the glands in their upper arms, not because they like being tickled. you know So that is just one of so many different examples of you know how we project our like, oh, they're so cute.
00:26:15
Speaker
And That's not what's happening here. Same as sloths as well. They always look like they're smiling and hugging, but they're actually just, it's like an instinct for them to grab onto trees and branches. They're not wanting to hug you. yeah I think that's the thing is these stories appeal to people because they find some kind of empathy, but it's quite ironic that the same empathy that gets them to cry over Punch's story is the same empathy that actually creates more harm because they're having empathy for things that are sometimes not there or that they're reading incorrectly. So like you said, overlooking body language and signs that the animal is distressed or more uncomfortable.
00:27:01
Speaker
And because we are feeling the strong connection and strong sense of empathy, we're almost ignoring empathy. all of their signals that are like species specific to say I'm actually not enjoying this situation.
00:27:15
Speaker
Yeah, that makes me think of this one news story that was reporting on Punch and it was a video and there was a collage of memes and posts and the newscaster says, this shows an outpouring of support, love and sympathy from...
00:27:33
Speaker
the more evolved primates among us. Like, to me, if we are more evolved, it is such common sense that animals should be in the wild. Like, and also us being the more evolved primates, like, what about the genocide that's happening right now? All of the fucked up things that are happening in the world, climate change, like, everything it's because of us. Like, macaque monkeys aren't You know, they have their hierarchies, but they're not
00:28:06
Speaker
They're not destroying their home. Littering and destroying their home. Yeah, totally. But also that comparison, I'm guessing, was because of the so-called bullies that were picking on Punch and saying, like, we're more evolved. We wouldn't pick on him. Yes. And that was something that stood out to me as well, as people were like, I'll fight those other monkeys. I'll have Punch's back. And really digging into these other monkeys. And it's like, OK, where's your empathy for the other monkeys? Because they're in captivity as well.
00:28:34
Speaker
I just find it so ironic because you're so ready to go and defend punch. But I guess that's more of a broader point as well, is that a lot of these viral stories obscure, firstly, the setting that they occur in, like captivity. You're ready to fight these other monkeys, but you're not thinking about their struggles and the fact that they're in captivity and that they're suffering as well.
00:28:58
Speaker
But it also obscures this like one-sided... desire for contact. Yes. Like we want to see them. We want to interact with them.
00:29:09
Speaker
and it reminds me of um Donna Haraway wrote about what she calls the God trick. It's a little bit removed from this context. She was talking more about the fallacy of objectivity, like in science or talking about capitalism or colonialism and how when we pretend that we can just be detached observers, like in science, for example, that's flawed because it masks all of our privilege.
00:29:36
Speaker
It masks our viewpoints and the situation we're in. And I feel like that's kind of what happens in these cases where we're looking at these other animals as if we're like some far removed God that we can just observe without realizing we're part of this larger context of captivity yeah and our engaging and our wanting to see or interact with or go and visit these animals.
00:30:03
Speaker
makes a difference in a bad way. And we act as if we're just like looking at this story. Yeah. And it's just also so on, like, it's one thing if it were just these viral videos, but it's not enough for folks to just see the animals online. They have to see them in person.
00:30:27
Speaker
i guess I get it, but... Because I'm like that, but when I see a wild animal in the wild, yeah even if it's like a dot on the sea, and I'm like, that's a seal! Ah! You know, like, I freak out.
00:30:44
Speaker
Like, I saw bears, like a bear with her cubs, wandering up a hill. This was not in Vancouver. This was up the Sunshine Coast. But, you know, it's so incredible, and you...
00:30:59
Speaker
Don't really ever get close to them or you should definitely not. But that kind of points to, you know, i am talking about wild animals that are in the area that I live in and being um chill and accepting of, okay, these are the animals that I will see in the wild.
00:31:22
Speaker
yeah These are the wild animals that I maybe will have a glance at. From a distance. Yes, from a distance. You know, i don't need to see these wild animals that are held in captivity. yeah The other thing that has been so annoying about reading about all these viral animals is the just ignoring of the fact that they are in zoos or...
00:31:54
Speaker
More so just the acceptance of zoos being part of the urban landscape. like Just like there are grocery stores in cities, there is always a zoo and that's just normal.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's just so normalized. And then also... Because people need to see these animals in real life, then that just brings money into these zoos.
Zoos in Urban Life: Ethical Implications
00:32:22
Speaker
Like for um Mu Deng, who's in Thailand, there was this woman from New York who went there three times.
00:32:33
Speaker
Wild. Like flew to Thailand specifically to see Mu Deng. And the third time, it was for Mu Deng's first birthday party. And This woman was only in Thailand for 30 hours.
00:32:47
Speaker
And maybe I'm being a judgmental jerk head, but what the fuck? Yeah. That's the next level yeah for sure. um But that's actually raises another point as well as the setting, which I think adds to whether these stories gain public traction or not.
00:33:05
Speaker
and Because people can visit a zoo, whereas they can't visit a science lab. Right. So even if you hear about these stories, i think setting matters hugely because firstly, if we take the example of it a science lab where animals are being tested on,
00:33:24
Speaker
There's the science justification, firstly. It's also hidden from public view, aside from the scientists and whoever's involved and maybe undercover investigators.
00:33:36
Speaker
But zoos are seen as like this fun place. oh no So the captivity is kind of obscured, whereas with science, there's a more obvious like this person is causing harm. Whereas in the zoo, the anger is directed towards other animals. So it's less confronting for people to criticize a zoo setting because they can critique the specific zoo and the layout of the enclosure, or they can critique the other animals in the enclosure
00:34:07
Speaker
Whereas in a lab, it's more justified ethically in people's minds. Whereas if they look at the institution of captivity in zoos, they have to look at their own behavior.
00:34:19
Speaker
Excellent point. Which is way more confronting for them, right? yeah So people don't want to really unpack these things in detail. So it's easy to just be like, oh, this is a fun story. I can go visit this animal without interrogating their own role, I guess. Yeah. And that's the thing too, that specifically about mudang, there's definitely a vibe that these animals are making people happy.
00:34:44
Speaker
and like bringing joy to people, seeing these
Joy from Viral Stories: Ethical Considerations
00:34:48
Speaker
cute little things. But that being said, like I guess we could play devil's advocate and see, is there anything positive to these viral stories?
00:35:00
Speaker
Like the fact that They do bring a lot of people joy. And I guess some people have said that it helps them with their mental of health, with the way the world is, um if they're sad or whatever, and looking at pictures of Punch or Mudang or whomever, it brings them joy.
00:35:26
Speaker
But is that a positive? No. What do you think? Yeah. No, but in all seriousness, I think those kind of takes are, and I know you agree with me, Meg, they're very um self-centered and they're not acknowledging what the animal in the story wants or needs. Yeah. It might bring people joy to go to the zoo, but that is not a joyful place for the animals that are kept there in captivity. Yeah.
00:35:58
Speaker
So I don't think that's a valid justification. No, I don't either. And also, like in articles that I read, there would be kind of at the end talking about conservation or the fact that pygmy hippos are endangered. and But even though, jumping to Punch's story, Japanese macaques aren't endangered or anything like that, but just...
00:36:25
Speaker
I guess this idea of bringing awareness to the species and to help with regards to pygmy, hippos, conservation, but there's never any tangible actions to take. It's just talked about.
00:36:40
Speaker
And then it's, again, like we talked about in episode three, about raising awareness, but then putting the onus on the individual.
00:36:55
Speaker
to like, okay, I need to give money, but then where does the money go? like It's this whole cycle that does not do anything to help these animals who do need a lot of help and more in situ rather than in captivity, right?
00:37:15
Speaker
Yeah, and even when I looked up, like I said, I kind of missed the mooding hype. But when I looked up her story to see if it jogged my memory, there was nothing about pygmy hippos being an endangered species that I saw. So if the argument is that it could potentially, and it could potentially raise some positive awareness, but I don't think it's doing that in any case that I know of.
00:37:43
Speaker
Yeah. No. Yeah, and I remember when we were kind of chatting about doing this episode, you mentioned that you had seen some people saying that Punch was kind of um almost like an ambassador for mental health because of how he persevered in his struggles and all of that.
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i guess that is for a lot of people who struggle with mental health. There is that, again, anthropomorphizing and connecting to this cute little monkey. But honestly, like I said before, the state of the world, it is fucking bleak. And so finding ways and finding things that can help you get through the day, i guess that good.
00:38:33
Speaker
good but i would hope that, you know If that is helping you, if he is helping you in that way, then you will also advocate for him.
00:38:46
Speaker
But I think also in terms of him being a kind of ambassador for mental health and like persevering through struggle, hall again, like you said, it's anthropomorphic.
00:38:56
Speaker
We're putting our stuff onto a little monkey who doesn't know we're doing that. It's a lot of pressure. He's not out there advocating for like, you know,
00:39:08
Speaker
anti-loneliness or anything like that. If he was, there would be some anti-feminist male loneliness epidemic men latching onto to the story and being like, he is our leader.
00:39:19
Speaker
Yeah. But we don't see that. So, yeah. um Yeah.
Viral Stories as Catalysts for Animal Rights
00:39:24
Speaker
I think if there is some kind of positive from these stories, I think the potential is there. In my mind, the only positive really is that Because people have this deep connection or sense of empathy for these animals, whether it's anthropomorphic or not, whether it's flawed or not, I think it's an in potentially for us to start conversations. Yes.
00:39:46
Speaker
Firstly, to help people see that other animals have their own stories, that they do experience emotions similar to ours, that they do feel things like loneliness, but use that as a starting point to talk about the fact that they should be in the wild or just to start kind of nurturing that emotional investment in the animal and extend it to all creatures.
00:40:12
Speaker
and Yeah. And there just aren't enough critical thinking pieces to sway folks into looking at these sorts of stories through a different lens. and so this could be, this could help start those conversations, I guess.
00:40:28
Speaker
Yeah. So i don't think there's much more from them that are positive, but i I mean, we've discussed a lot of it already, but I think there are many more negatives that come out of these viral
Objectification and Commodification of Animals
00:40:39
Speaker
stories. In thinking about how people empathize with these animals or become like obsessed with them, I think we need to acknowledge that people are kind of objectifying these animals as well. They're objectifying punch Oh, yeah. Especially saying things like, I want to adopt punch or I want to fly there and see him. um he Yeah, it's literally just objectifying these animals, not thinking about their situation at all.
00:41:07
Speaker
And the narrative of ownership comes out. Yes. Like, I want to own this animal. People saying like, I want my own punch, you know, and it's like, that's a slippery slope towards fueling wildlife trade. Yeah, absolutely.
00:41:22
Speaker
Like specifically about Punch and Mu Ding, like Punch and his little orangutan, he is starting to now, present day, he is starting to integrate into the troop and have other monkey friends.
00:41:40
Speaker
and not need his stuffy anymore. And that is an image that brought us to him. And so him not wanting to cuddle and like ah hold on to that stuffy, are people still going to be as obsessed with him once he's just another monkey at that zoo? And the same thing with Mudang. Like once she grows up,
00:42:04
Speaker
Well, even now with Punch, I've seen some people be excited and happy that he's starting to integrate into the troupe, but you don't see people talking about him anymore.
00:42:16
Speaker
So he's already kind of forgotten in social narratives. Yes. So yeah, you're right. like It's a momentary fleeting bit of excitement and then it fades, just like any viral story, I suppose.
00:42:31
Speaker
who And still there... stuck in zoo. Yeah. In captivity and in horrible conditions, usually.
00:42:42
Speaker
Exactly. And also just bringing in the kind of capitalist de effects of these stories. Firstly, when we look at, like I said, I want to own this animal kind of thing, potentially fueling wildlife trade and things like that.
00:42:56
Speaker
um Apparently in February, IKEA representatives visited the zoo and donated 33 stuffed toys to Punch. Like, he doesn't need 33 stuffed toys. It's such a like weird publicity stunt. Yeah.
00:43:10
Speaker
And also, didn't that... ah stuffy like sell out yes exactly so it was this big publicity stunt and then they the sales like hugely increased and sold out in most locations so again it becomes less about the animal and more about making money oh and there were also people making merchandise with punch's face and it becomes this really capitalist shit show yeah So, I mean, it can create awareness when stories like this go viral, but at what cost and to what end?
00:43:45
Speaker
Yeah. With everything, the issues are systemic and that is usually never dealt with. Yeah. It never goes that deep, right? I wanted to mention as well, I saw an Instagram post, I can link it in the show notes as well, from a wildlife vet who she was basically saying that Punch's story is not unique, that she sees orphaned animals every day.
00:44:09
Speaker
There were a whole lot of pictures in the post of all these different animals that had gone through these different things, lost their mothers as well. But the thing is, those aren't going to go viral because firstly, it means when we're looking at animals in their natural habitat, going through something similar to what Punch went through, then we have to reckon with things like climate change, habitat destruction, all the things that are caused by humans, whereas it's much easier to just call a bunch of monkeys in a zoo bullies.
00:44:40
Speaker
Plus, the people working with these animals a lot of the time are far too busy to make Yeah. yeah Yeah, I kind of was thinking about this, and it just made me think about all of the viral pictures and stuff of when people go in to rescue animals and how the humans always have to be in the picture and it's not about the animal.
00:45:10
Speaker
i feel like similarly, but not. We need these animals to not go viral, if that makes sense. We don't need to have this happen, and it shouldn't be happening.
00:45:25
Speaker
I mean, I guess this comes down to the world that we live in, and any kind of viral video is so, like what does it do, and what is the point of it, and how does it affect people that are watching it you know?
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah. And I think the tendency for people to want to see or own or interact with directly other animals, it's kind of just like a very obvious symptom of this capitalist consumerism focused world that we live in.
00:45:58
Speaker
Because social media and other kinds of media are constantly trying to sell us things. Everyone and everything has a price tag.
00:46:08
Speaker
Everything is supposed to be making us happy, more fulfilled, better, you know, whatever it is. So it's just like diet trends and fast fashion and all of this kind of stuff.
00:46:21
Speaker
Animals get sucked into that as well. It becomes trendy to latch onto this animal and then suddenly you want to buy that animal and it just feels like everything has a price or a social currency that's you know, can lead to things like taking animals from the wild or breeding them in captivity just to meet that need. And it's an artificial, well, more of a demand than a need.
00:46:46
Speaker
And it's driven by capitalism. So it's like this vicious cycle yeah of like creating this artificial demand and then doing things to fu fulfill that demand. It's just completely nonsensical. Yeah.
00:46:59
Speaker
And I think that it also makes it quite difficult to advocate for animals because they're undeniably cute. And I think that also when we look at animals that aren't cute necessarily or aren't as easy to anthropomorphize, we look at like orcas and animals in the ocean, they're a lot harder to advocate for because you can't really cuddle a fish. So it's like, it's harder to be like, oh, look at this cuddly little animal, even though it's just as important to advocate for those animals.
00:47:34
Speaker
But it's also, on the flip side, it's hard to advocate, even for animals like Punch, because people love him already. But if you're going to step in and say, hey so I know that that's like a really cute story and it's really cute how he's cuddling that animal, but have you thought about the context of captivity that he's in? Yes. Then you sound like this killjoy just ruining everyone's fun.
00:47:57
Speaker
Also, like, if this happened in the wild, he'd probably be dead, you know? Yes. Nobody wants to hear the truth. They just want to have their fun little storytelling moment. Right.
00:48:09
Speaker
Yeah. Maybe we should end off with something a little more positive and move to Bites of Resistance. Yes.
00:48:23
Speaker
So Bites of Resistance is basically a segment where we look at something related to our topic that can bring us a little bit of hope, whether it's an organization, an idea for how we can bring some positive into a situation, whatever it is, some some little, like the name suggests, Bites of Resistance.
Advocating for Systemic Change in Animal Treatment
00:48:45
Speaker
Yeah, and air, I told you i wasn't going to talk about this book, but As far as for this episode, like figuring out a bite of resistance for me, I just was like, like, don't engage with viral shit.
00:49:03
Speaker
Just let the animals do their thing. Even though they're in captivity, that's the problem. So i guess flipping that, don't let that be forgotten. Let the captivity and the fuckery animals zoos drive the viralness, so to speak. And it's up to us, the more evolved primates, to advocate for them and do that. So that was ah little kind of piece that I was ah toying with, with regards to kind of trying to figure out some hopeful things or hopeful ways we could
00:49:45
Speaker
deal with this whole vibe. But going back to this book as part of a like a tangible thing to look at, you brought it up in episode three.
00:49:59
Speaker
It's called Fear of the Animal Planet, The Hidden History of Animal Resistance by Jason Rebaugh. And it's full of stories from long ago and of some recent stories as well of animal resistance, like escapes and attacks and the animals' assertion for their freedom. And yes, in the title it says hidden history, but let's get those stories viral and get the conversations going.
00:50:28
Speaker
Don't let the zoos and labs downplay these stories to being rare or you know being accidents or whatever. So, i mean, it's an intense read and we were talking about doing a media club around that book. It's not anytime soon because it's pretty heavy.
00:50:50
Speaker
But the stories are incredible. Yeah, I had similar thoughts in that. We could use popular stories like Punches to advocate or as a starting point to advocating for other animals.
00:51:04
Speaker
And also just finding stories of animals that are in their natural habitats and And sharing those as much as you can, especially sharing with people who are not necessarily in conversations around animal liberation, but they spoke about punch. Then you have an in to be like, hey, I saw you sharing about punch. That's really rad that you care about this sweet animal.
00:51:31
Speaker
Have you heard about this other animal and this organization that you can support and go vegan. you know yeah ah Just using those opportunities to advocate where you can, I think.
00:51:45
Speaker
And then the other thing that I wanted to bring up is, i don't know if you've heard of them, Meg, or if you follow them, but Sheldrick Wildlife Trust. no It's an organization in Kenya and they always share...
00:52:00
Speaker
the most amazing stories. They predominantly work with orphaned elephants and they do rescue and rehab and some rewilding where they can. They also have anti-poaching programs.
00:52:13
Speaker
And it made me think of them because you were speaking about Mu Ding as well, Meg. They have a new orphan hippo named Bumpy and his mother died as well. They think It was potentially a territorial fight where she was protecting him, but she died and now he's an orphan.
00:52:31
Speaker
And the nice thing with Sheldrick is that they will assign carers to the orphan animals. So like they'll have round the clock care sort of thing. And the videos on the Instagram are so cute. Oh, they are so sweet. And it just made me think like, these are the stories that should be going viral and people should be donating to organizations like them. You know, they also have programs where they work on protecting wild habitats.
00:53:03
Speaker
um So I thought I would just highlight them, check them out if you don't know them and support them if you can, because that's one of the organizations doing exactly what we're talking about. That's right. I'll look them up too, or you can send me the info. I will. thanks So I guess that's all we can say about punch and about viral videos about these animals in captivity and how the public and the world reacts to them.
00:53:34
Speaker
I mean, i'm sure we'll turn off the record button and could talk more for hours, but let's end it here. Yeah, for sure. And we hope that you got some value from this episode. And as always, we're open to feedback or questions or comments.
00:53:51
Speaker
You can email us at anticaptivitypod at gmail.com. You can also DM us or follow us on Instagram at anticaptivitypod. And also wherever you're listening, please subscribe.
00:54:03
Speaker
And if you can rate and review the podcast, that would probably help us in some way. yes Also just so that we know we're not talking into the void. And share an episode with someone you know so that we can get out there a little bit more.
00:54:21
Speaker
But thanks for being here and listening. And and until viral animal videos don't mask exploitation. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.
00:54:31
Speaker
Bye.
00:54:57
Speaker
ah just
00:55:00
Speaker
Did you hear that? That little throat bubble. A little gurgle. What were saying before I rudely interrupted with my throat sounds?
00:55:12
Speaker
Are you talking for real right now or recording? Okay.
00:55:19
Speaker
ah I was like, do I answer? What? um Can you hear me? who Oh, okay. Hello? oh Hello? Hello? hello Hello? Hello? Is it you? That was $30, that stupid thing.