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EP.07 Jonny Nash
40 Plays7 days ago
This week, Pete is joined by the Netherlands based, Scottish guitarist & producer Jonny Nash. From the nascent Amsterdam scene of the 2010's which led to his records with Suzanne Kraft & Gaussian Curve to his more recent collaborations with Ana Best & Teguh Permana, Jonny's work practices restraint and subtlety in a world full of noise & attention grabbing content, a breath of fresh air amongst the madness.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:02
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to Catching Light with me, Pete from Ishmael Ensemble. Hope you're climatising to this new autumnal weather gets me every year so dark isn't it um although i have been quite enjoying hunkering down writing lots of new music and yeah getting stuck into into the podcast actually which uh i'm glad to see so many of you enjoying thanks for the lovely words on last week's uh chat with zaki asool um yeah felt like a lot of people connected with that and
00:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, come at a time when we could all do with a bit of solidarity, right? Yeah, if you haven't yet checked it out, out do do go back um and get stuck in.
00:00:54
Speaker
But yeah, on to this week's guest. Someone I've kind of inadvertently known about for a very long time, but didn't join the dots until quite recently.
Johnny Nash's Background and Influences
00:01:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'll start at the beginning. ah Ten years ago, an album came out, which for me and lots of mates that were kind of into the post dubstep house scene at the time,
00:01:20
Speaker
kind of flipped things on their head a bit and yeah just everyone seemed to really love this record that was Susan Kraft with Talk From Home which came out on a label called Melody As Truth I guess a year or so later there was lots of other music coming out of Amsterdam with Rush Hour Records and Red Light Radio Again, one of which that was kind of on the periphery of that deep house scene that was very prevalent at the time was the Gorsian Curve.
00:01:57
Speaker
um That I kind of knew, I guess, because of like Young Marco. And again, it featured on guitar and production, Johnny Nash, who I then kind of started listening to, I guess, on just like a band camp deep dive over the years of...
00:02:13
Speaker
Yeah, his beautiful ambient guitar music and collaborations with quite unique artists from around the world, often just solo instrumentalists um or vocalists with quite unique styles.
00:02:29
Speaker
And... Yeah, i guess over the last couple of years has just been the soundtrack to those quieter moments in my life. And there's two albums in particular which really caught my imagination. They're kind of a duo of records anyway, and that is Point of Entry.
00:02:45
Speaker
And then from this year, Once Was Ours Forever. um Anyway, once I'd sort of joined all the dots, it... Yeah, made me think I should probably get in touch and and have a chat and try and navigate this ah industrious but quiet journey in music that Johnny's been on over the last decade or so.
Relocation to Amsterdam and Lifestyle
00:03:09
Speaker
originally from Edinburgh, um but then has spent the last 10 or so years, if not more, in and around Amsterdam, and yeah, seems to just turn everything he touches into gold.
00:03:23
Speaker
um Well worth a deep dive into all his music. Yeah, certainly could spend a few hours digging in. So without further ado, we're going to get stuck in to this week's guest on Catching Light.
00:03:40
Speaker
That is Johnny Nash.
00:04:08
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome to Catching Light with me Pete from Ishmael Ensemble and I'm delighted to be joined this afternoon by guitarist, label boss and producer Johnny Nash. Hey Johnny, how doing?
00:04:23
Speaker
Hey Pete, I'm good thanks and yeah thanks for having us. Yeah no worries, caught you mid house move right? um How's that all going? Yeah indeed it's It's ah it's going okay. I've i've learned from learned from the mistakes of the past and started well in advance this time.
00:04:39
Speaker
yeah But yeah but it it it remains a ah big mission. Also with with the studio in the house as well, I think I spent like two days packing it down and it looks pretty much exactly the same as it as it did before.
00:04:53
Speaker
just ah Just less wires. But um yeah, getting there, getting there. So it's all good. Yeah, yeah. And where are you based? Amsterdam, right? No, I'm actually based um in a small town about 40 kilometers north of Amsterdam. Okay. Like on the coast.
00:05:11
Speaker
So it's um it's pretty accessible to get into the city. You can take a ah train in and about 25 minutes, but it's a bit quieter. A bit more space and yeah a bit more nature, which is which is nice.
00:05:25
Speaker
and Not that Amsterdam's like a crazy big city, but yeah, it's still, yeah, the difference is is really noticeable living here. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. How how long have you been there? Are you from the UK originally? Yeah, no, I'm from that from the UK. I grew up in Edinburgh in Scotland. right I moved move to the Netherlands, I think in 2017, early yeah, coming up for years.
00:05:51
Speaker
um yeah and i i was in amsterdam for a large portion of that time and then moved out of the city, I guess, yeah, about two, two and a half years ago, something like that.
00:06:05
Speaker
Nice. what What drew you there? What was the... Yeah, well, ah my partner, she she's originally from this area where we where we live in. and ah And she had, we met in Amsterdam, but she had a...
00:06:20
Speaker
um like a summer house, like a little cottage out here, which she would she would come to the weekends and also would use it as ah as a workspace. um So we found we were coming more and more at the weekends out here when we lived in Amsterdam, just to kind of relax, to go on walks, just to kind of be out the city. And yeah, we we kind of slowly started to realize that we preferred being here than in the city itself. And yeah, so it was like a nice, nice organic move across.
00:06:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, nice. it's so It's a beautiful part. Yeah, we kind of had a random day off. We were playing in Brussels and then the next day in Rotterdam. And I guess we were more kind of west, but on that sort North Sea coast. And yeah, I guess we don't anyway here think of of the Netherlands as a kind of place you'd go to the coast and hang out. Or at least I didn't. but already No,
00:07:17
Speaker
I mean, I have to say even me too, like, you know, I probably lived in Amsterdam for like four five years before ever going to, know, the coast in the Netherlands. So it was a bit of a revelation when I first got there and there's actually, yeah, like really nice beaches. And I mean, you can really, really swim and have a proper like day on the beach feel in the summer, especially in the winter. It's maybe little bit more questionable, but it's still got its charm.
00:07:44
Speaker
yeah Yeah, we were there and November, I think, and yeah, we kind of took a walk. But yeah, it was a real kind of, I guess, because it's so flat and you just get this kind of North Sea wind. I don't know, it felt quite... Yeah.
00:07:57
Speaker
Quite... Definitely windy. Impactful. Yeah, yeah. was It was crazy. Yeah. Yeah, nice. do you Do you miss the buzz of the city? Or are you happy there now? Yeah, mostly not, to be honest. I think, I mean, it's it's so close by that you can kind of get in and do what you need to do if you want to go and see something or um you know, friends are passing through.
00:08:20
Speaker
i also think, yeah, the ah kind of, um for me, the sort of community that I was maybe involved in when I first moved to Amsterdam, which was a ah real reason that I moved there, um that kind of creative community, as these things do, kind of gradually dissipated, especially post-COVID.
00:08:41
Speaker
So i think there was less and less
00:08:46
Speaker
sort of reason or incentive to to be in the city compared with when I first moved there, say, in 2017. And yeah, it was it was very much ah a conscious decision to be in a city that there were a lot of kind of collaborators or like-minded people living in.
00:09:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I guess, I think that's where I first came across your work. I guess, yeah, I mean, i guess through the Gorsian Curves stuff, which I loved at the time and, well, still do. And then like the Susan Croft collaborations and, yeah, I don't know, I guess from an outsider, there was there was certainly like a real special moment.
00:09:28
Speaker
I guess around that yeah was it sort of 2015-ish or something like looking out to to what was going on in in Amsterdam and like the kind of I guess it was obviously rush hour and and the more housey stuff but then there seemed to be this really beautiful kind of sidestep of that that was lots of people exploring uh minimalism or ambient music and um Yeah, did did that feel like a a real musical community? Because, yes, certainly from the outside, it felt like a real prosperous time for for music in Amsterdam.
Amsterdam Music Scene and Collaborations
00:10:00
Speaker
I would say 100 percent. It really did. It it it felt special at the time. and Yeah, it it was also kind of, um I guess a lot of factors made it possible, but it was also and this really large, um I guess, kind of complex in the center of the city, right in the middle of the red light district, which comprised of red light records, the also red light radio.
00:10:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. My friend Marco, who I do Gossi and Curve with, he has he had his studio there. i think also Deckmantle had their offices there.
00:10:39
Speaker
Yeah, there was just a lot kind of going on in the central hub. And then Diego and I also had ah had our studio kind of in the in that complex too. So yeah, there was a lot of kind of cross-pollination of of ideas also yeah i think music from memories office was there and they just started the label around that time or maybe a little bit before and a lot of these people had been friends of mine for for quite a long time prior to and you know starting their labels or the shops or anything so it was kind of a natural organic growth that we all had which led up to this period in 2015 where everyone kind of seemed to
00:11:17
Speaker
sort of finally be doing their thing and then yeah it was great real real real nice time in the city really fun yeah yeah i always remember that was sam proper in those studios about there's that video of him where he's like painted his studio pink or so what was it i just remember this like hilarious video that everyone yeah went mad over there No, that's right. Yeah, there there was another complex of studios. I think that SANS studio was there, but that was also, I mean, really close by and also like a really vibrant hub where you had like Jordan jordan from Juju and Jordache, his studio was there next to SANS proper.
00:11:58
Speaker
So yeah, there was there was a lot going on. Yeah, it was really nice time. yeah there's also because I kind of started out releasing through like the Wolf Music label, um okay Fritz Wentink, who was around that way as well. and yeah There's a few kind of connections there. and yeah I remember did a red light radio thing way back when. and yeah i loved that kind of just like passing crowd,
00:12:24
Speaker
people hanging out and yeah um Yeah, it seemed like a golden era for sure. And that that's where the the first Gaussian curve record was written, was it? I remember in the liner notes it was the Red Light District. and That was written right in the in that. and ad Actually, the the first album was written before ah before i' I'd moved to Amsterdam.
00:12:48
Speaker
right And Mark had a studio, again, yeah really not in that particular complex that I was just talking about, but very nearby. And ah we recorded that album yeah ah right there and the second one also. So um yeah, it it was ah it was a real hub. but Kind of like, I don't know, one not even one kilometer square, probably like a few hundred meters squared in the center of the city.
00:13:55
Speaker
How did you kind of create those relationships with the city where you kind of did you, you said you were working there before you moved there, right? Yeah, I mean, for me, it really all comes down to my friendship that I have with ah with my friend Tako, Tako Reinga, who's the the owner of Music From Memory. And he was also the original owner of the Red Light Records store too.
00:14:20
Speaker
and So we've we've been been friends for, i think probably about 20 years now, like way back when, since when I lived in Japan in my early twenties. um And I would always come to to Netherlands just to hang out Tako for years,
00:14:37
Speaker
years and years like um and kind of really got to know the city through him and through him also so many other relationships kind of came up um and then like totally aside from that I think prior to moving there I met um ed my friend Diego who records as Suzanne Kraft yeah and He also decided to move to Amsterdam too. so it was kind of by the time By the time I moved there, it was ah yeah lot of goods good buddies already live in there and it kind of made made perfect sense to to make the move.
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Amazing. I mean, I remember that. um Was it called Heart From Me? Was it the Susan Kraft record that was like, yeah.
00:15:28
Speaker
Was that the first collaboration you'd kind of done publicly, as it were? Were you kind of making... because I thought yeah I think I started to draw the dots like join the dots between that and the Gaussian curve stuff and realized it was yeah you but yeah i think yeah I'm trying to think of the of the timeline over I think I i really i released uh i think well i yeah I started my label Melody is Truth i think in two thousand and late 2014 and Diego released his first Suzanne Craft record, Talk from Home, 10 years ago. ah That cover is like ingrained in my mind. yeah yeah yeah big yeah yeah yeah really ah really made mark. people People love it. yeah
00:16:11
Speaker
it's funny yeah After the third one I totally flipped the artwork concept but maybe maybe I got it wrong and just kept it going because i so so many people love those first three records.
00:16:22
Speaker
yeah um My work with Diego Bagram with him releasing that record on Melody is Truth 10 years ago and then after that we did a couple of collaborative LPs too in the following years I think.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, it seems really special. And like, I wanted to ask about your kind of history within that, because I guess a lot of your music I see as like adjacent to
Musical Evolution and Influences
00:16:51
Speaker
electronic music. And I guess I was listening to a lot of this music, you know, yours or the Susan Kraft stuff or the Gorsi and Kerf stuff whilst, you know, being into that sort of deep house kind of sound that was yeah bubbling around then. And, and you know,
00:17:08
Speaker
continue to see that you know a lot of my friends that listen to your music are also djs and you know very much into club music so yeah um was that a part of your journey as well were djing or were kind of clubbing or you know where where did those worlds kind of align yeah 100 mean that's really that's that's my my kind of roots my journey is really one through ah through electronic music and and club culture you know from you from from being a teenager really and you know listening to to jungle and drum and bass and then house and techno um you know then moving into more disco, telodisco then just gradually kind of getting a bit more broader with genres and
00:18:00
Speaker
That was kind of the, yeah, the, the, the path that my journey towards what I do now came from. and instead of kind of coming from ah from a band context or like maybe like a real sort of player's context, it was more from that DJ side and I guess more like a record digging side as well.
00:18:18
Speaker
That was like a ah really big part of my identity and my relationship with music for a long time. not Not in recent years, but probably prior to getting going with making music.
00:18:31
Speaker
That's how I knew Taco and other friends, we were just all digging a lot of music kind of loosely in this in this context of the fringes of clubbing or dance music or something. So yeah, I think i'm i'm and that's really why so much of the audience is maybe kind of adjacent to club music, even though the music that I make now is very different. But I think the the link has somehow kind of remained.
00:18:55
Speaker
And probably for people who just we just like finding out about my music now, they might they might not and pick up on that. But yeah, yeah. I guess if you if you look back at the discography and things I've done in the past you can maybe sort of trace a little bit that reflection of the records that I was listening to and digging also then making changes in the music that I was making and and releasing too.
00:19:52
Speaker
Where does guitar come into that? if you weren't in the band kind of thing, were you always playing guitar? or Yeah, how does that fit? I should preface this and say that like I was into band music like a lot. I was sort very precocious and was was like really into music from being in from like about so like seven or eight.
00:20:14
Speaker
Like mega into it. like i would I had the subscription to the NME and the Melody Maker, and I would like sift through it every week. yeah um like Literally at the age of like eight or something, um you I would ask my dad to take me to to see gigs.
00:20:29
Speaker
So ah I was very much a kind of band indie guy when I was very young. yeah and And I also took guitar lessons off the back of that, of like wanting to be in a band or something. but But then the time I was about 13 or 14 I'd kind of got swept up in electronic music and got a set turntables and and that was it. And just kind of dropped it for a while.
00:20:53
Speaker
It probably wasn't until 15 years ago that I picked up the guitar again and I gradually started to think about incorporating it into music. yeah Again, for a lot of people who maybe just find music now, they they would sort of consider me primarily a guitar player. i mean Maybe I am now, but and so I certainly wasn't. so i mean To me, it sounds like the guitar is more and more the tool used as well. On the latest album, it seems you know it's it's like it's a guitar record. right it's um
00:21:24
Speaker
Interesting how, yeah, I mean, is that kind of a ah confidence thing in your playing or just the way you've evolved in your setup, do you think? Yeah, I think i think's it's probably a bit of both of those.
00:21:36
Speaker
i mean, for some reason, the the kind of melodies and the the things that come out, you know, they're... They're different if you play it on a keyboard or on a guitar, for me anyway, the type of melodies that might might come out.
00:21:50
Speaker
And I think also just gravitated more and more towards this idea of the touch that you have with the guitar and the the tactility of playing it, I think, is something that allows me to get as close as I can to to what I'm trying to do, that maybe using synthesizers or using piano or something like is is is is maybe not going to get me to that point.
00:22:11
Speaker
And I think, of course, then with that, with the time that you invest in it, You know, the more you uncover, the more and that you can do, the the things that really resonate with you.
00:22:23
Speaker
And, you know, hopefully over time, yeah you sort of develop a bit of a style of of what it is that you want to do with the instrument. So, you know, I'm still very far away from from ah from achieving what I could do with the guitar, but um I find more and more it's the instrument I turn to for getting the closest and direct ah expression of what i'm I'm feeling with what I'm trying to make, I think.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And are there influences there, kind of outside of, yeah, i guess the electronic music, you know, are there other guitar players that you you look to for inspiration as much as as producers, as it were?
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. definitely i mean um I have to say also in terms of my listening habits for the last five, six years, whatever I don't really listen to electronic music much at all anymore. I have no idea what the landscape is of like what what's going on.
00:23:17
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, where I kind of sit now, I'm definitely um yeah more and more in this world of listening to yeah to to folk music, acoustic music, other bands, things like this. So yeah, there's there's countless um countless influences and the influences these days are definitely less electronic based, I would say.
00:24:14
Speaker
For me, it's really just been listening to a lot of different types of guitar music in the last few years. um i do i I have been really inspired by you know this kind of what could loosely be called this sort of cosmic Americana kind of slide guitar, lap steel music.
00:24:30
Speaker
Or like finger-picking guitarists. I really love these artists North Americans. yeah Hayden Pedigo is another guy who's who's great like doing this kind of um modern day, updated, kind of John Fahey finger-picking style stuff.
00:24:45
Speaker
So although my music's not really directly like that, I enjoy listening to to this kind of finger-picking guitarists. and yeah artists that maybe know smear this a little bit with these kind of ambient textures but the the playing is still still super nice and remains the main the main focus.
00:25:02
Speaker
yeah yeah and Have you gone into the kind of
Music Production Philosophy
00:25:07
Speaker
pedal world? Are you in that wormhole or or do you kind of try and things as close to the performance? yeah i um yeah i I really try not to I try to keep things pretty simple. you know I'm i'm I'm, you know, this this kind of like modular synth endless, like yeah like buying gear thing, I try to avoid avoid it or it doesn't speak to me. I like to also just use a few things and keep them the same if I find one thing I like.
00:25:38
Speaker
And that can even be like, it's it's going to be one preset on a synth, will be like the only synth sound. or like You know, it's like there's there's one preset on the last two records pretty much. right i think or also like one effects chain or some or something. um I often find also like with with effects chains, if you find like one that you really like, you can just put it as a send a little bit on almost everything on the record and the world of well that'll be the the world of it I spend time finding those things, but um it's more sort of deep diving with the limited tools that I have and kind of keeping the palette fairly small. And then maybe, you know, for the next project you do you introduce one or two new things to the palette and kind of see how much you can do in that smaller space. Although have just ordered a whole bunch of pedals. So, yeah, don't listen to me too much.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. yeah But it's interesting, yeah, i find like the pedal world is obviously amazing, but like it's in a way that becomes then the instrument, right? You're kind of sidestepping the performance of the guitar. It's more like let's resonate something on the guitar and then use the pedals, which people do amazingly, but in a way it's totally new skillset.
00:26:53
Speaker
ah whole new yeah I think I'm i'm i'm more more drawn to the yeah the the touch again, like hearing the touch of how someone plays an instrument or it's a wind instrument, just the dynamics of how they choose to play it. That's for me where the the real stuff kind of lies. Although yeah some people, you know their whole thing is is um you know based around the more sound design or the the effects and that that can also be fantastic. But in general,
00:27:20
Speaker
With my own stuff, try to keep it fairly simple and also a little bit DIY or something, like not to not too polished. and yeah At least for the last two records that was really um yeah something that i that I wanted to try and do, not make it sound too good.
00:27:37
Speaker
too
00:28:07
Speaker
And is that through kind of the recording process? Are you kind of doing one take and accepting it? Or are you striving for an unfinished sound by spending ages making it sound unfinished? or yeah how do you do um Most of the guitar parts, especially any lead any lead line or anything where the guitar is taking the lead is all improvised and i do it as quickly as possible.
00:28:32
Speaker
um maybe Maybe there'll be some editing afterwards, but generally not. Tends to take more time as the yeah the stuff behind that, like maybe just the the repetitive beds or the loops and things like that and getting them to sound sound right. yeah I mean, I'm also like constantly learning, but i know ive I have some really nice microphones. I got a pair Neumann KM84s in like an old pair And I really like them, but yeah, they're they're almost too good. You know, they're like, they're like classical.
00:29:02
Speaker
i think the guy I bought them off, they were used to record Pavarotti and orchestra or something. So they're so high definition, which is great. But um yeah, I found with the, with acoustic guitar, they Yeah, they were just kind of too good for the sound that i was after. So yeah, I had to experiment, like just re reamping them a little bit and giving things a little bit more texture and stuff like that is the stuff that really took quite a long time. But the actual playing itself, I always do try and do very quickly and kind of first thought, best thought really.
00:29:34
Speaker
You know, you probably find it too. It's like there's a bit of this exponential graph of like the longer it takes takes me to do something, probably the the shitter it is. Yeah, yeah. Not always. Not always, but...
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's what i find happens a lot. so Oh man, totally. Do you find that? Yeah, yeah, definitely. like The amount of times I've recorded like a sax melody or solo-y thing and you know then spent months trying to recreate it with a nice microphone in a nice room and then yeah comes to mixing day and you're just like, you know what, let's use the the voice note record record or whatever. Same for like drums, you know the amount of times we've like demoed some stuff and then booked out a nice fancy studio and I get these stems back and it's like 18 drum mics or something. It sounded way better with like three mics. Yeah, it's it's crazy man. ah yeah I was just reading this book from it Simon Raymond, the third member of Cocteau Twins.
00:30:33
Speaker
yeah yeah and It was interesting reading that they had a policy of never never doing demos. Don't do anything unless it's going to be the one. and it's something that try and do but yeah i it's still fall into the trap like you know you'll turn you'll turn on you'll start playing and you'll you know you won't engage with the thing you're doing 100 you'll just be like i'm gonna get the idea down so then you're gonna end up with something that's actually vibe wise like way better than anything else you can do later but it's not enough or there's one chord change it's not there so i really try and avoid this um now it's like uh
00:31:10
Speaker
yeah that yeah it because they like You say you're you then get yourself in these situations where you're torn between something that you're going to probably have to put a lot of work in to make it sound right ah versus some yeah this kind of original thing that also doesn't have the sonic quality that you need but it's got the vibe in it. Then spend countless hours trying to get to where you were originally.
00:31:31
Speaker
yeah Or make it sound like a Cocteau Twins record and it's like, oh, how did they get that? Oh. Yeah, I need to dig into that actually. I saw him chatting about that in a few places recently. Yeah, it sounds great. Yeah, it was a good book. I mean, there's not so much studio stuff in it because that was all robin robin guthrie but um yeah i was kind of really fascinated with this they had this really large studio and also produced for a lot of other other bands in there i think too so yeah it was kind of nice to to read a little bit about the whole background of it all mean that's interesting because i remember reading about elizabeth fraser about you know teardrop the massive attack team and her being under the impression that it was like a demo vocal and then it got released and then she's like oh what
00:32:15
Speaker
I thought I could record that properly. But yeah. And I mean, I've been guilty of that too, you know, ah kind of, certainly my project is very much kind of just record loads of mates and then put it all together.
00:32:28
Speaker
you know, done, oh, whatever happened to that thing that we did? It's like, oh, it's it's out. And yeah, it doesn't sound anything like you because it's been through. Like, yeah, a hairdryer or, yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:59
Speaker
next step. The step is to make a new place for the next step.
00:33:11
Speaker
Your working process and mine is probably very different, but I'm also really ah yeah really really intrigued and fascinated by this method that you say of like recording a whole bunch of friends. I think there's ah so much potential to achieve things that are not achievable in the way that I do my stuff.
Collaborations and Creative Process
00:33:32
Speaker
yeah um Yeah, um yeah i mean I'm interested. it's like is that ah you Are you working with the same people all the time then, or are you are you kind of... It's kind of a mix, really. I mean, so, you know, I guess similarly, my journey came from being a bedroom drum and bass DJ and then, you know, starting to get into everything that was going on, moved to Bristol. I grew up just outside of Bristol, but kind of moved into the city and, it was right at the peak of all the dubstep stuff happening. And then obviously then kind of modulated into the post dubstep and then the housey stuff. And, you know, so I was always kind of doing that.
00:34:08
Speaker
But then at the same time, always playing sax and other instruments in like dub you know, weird kind of noisy bands and then the worlds kind of met where I guess I was making dance music and electronic music and kind of just getting bored of the the process of like digging for samples or flicking through you know drum packs or whatever and yeah I think like the charm of digging for records and you know trying to find the perfect dusty loop is yeah There's a thousand people doing this way better than I'll ever do it. you know, who am I kidding? You know, let's just leave Theo parish to it or whatever. And you know, it's kind of,
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah, I guess like, oh, you know, there's these amazing people I'm sort of already playing within the kind of musical live, what you know, live music world in and around Bristol.
00:35:00
Speaker
yeah And yeah, it was actually, yeah, it was, do you remember Banoffee pies, the label, those guys that kind of, so they, I was doing like the solo stuff and they were like, oh, you should do like a live thing. Cause I'd started live shows where I was like playing sax and triggering loops and stuff. but not being able to do any of it, like, you know, it was doing too much effectively. And like, basically I should just get someone else to help.
00:35:23
Speaker
and And those guys kind of spurred me on and were like, oh, we'd love to do like a and Ishmael live record or something. And like, oh, how about Ishmael Ensemble? And then, yeah, just recorded like a couple of really old mates who I'd gone to school with and stuff. And yeah, one of them, Mullins, is a guitarist. And just like, I mean, he is a pedal guy for sure. You know, it's like the classic, what's the thing with the Edge where they turn the pedals off he's just playing like, dingling but then you like turn the pedals back on and it's just this lush wash and yeah so yeah that kind of became the start of it and yeah now like there's a live band that you know is very much those guys as well um but then you know lots of different vocalists and yeah just feeling like inspired in Bristol really and and all these amazing people and that's great that's great yeah if that's um if that's around you I think it's it's
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think yeah it has to kind of grow organically. I mean, yeah with the scene that I was involved in Amsterdam, it was very much, um yeah I guess, like Diego and I were a little bit odd ones out and we were sort of like a bit more bandy players, this kind of thing. Yeah, not so many, we in our immediate circle, there wasn't so many live know yeah musicians playing.
00:36:39
Speaker
So that kind of definitely i guess influenced the way we were working. But um it doest be yeah it really appeals to me, this idea of working the way that you're working too, as something totally different. And um you know just receiving all of these parts played by different and energies from different people and then yeah turning crafting something out of it. There's something really nice about that.
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I mean, the real kind of thing is then trying to turn that into something cohesive that makes sense, which I feel like, you know, I'm almost massively envious of those that can really just hone it in, you know, the way you're working. know, I guess you always look to what you don't have as kind of exciting thing, don't you? But, you know, the idea of playing one instrument through one FX chain is is really appealing to me. So, yeah, it's kind of, it's funny.
00:37:26
Speaker
But, yeah, I guess, like, throughout it all, lets it's... Yeah, that collaborative thing is really at the heart of it. um Which I feel like is something you've done, right? Maybe in a bit more of like a zoomed in way.
00:37:40
Speaker
You seem to have quite a lot of no collaborative albums where it's just like you and one other. who Who orchestrates that? Do you kind of think, oh, I love this voice or I love this instrument, I want to make an album? more It's generally generally so of been quite ah random and fortuitous of meeting certain people or or yeah just having Certain people recommend someone else to me and then talking to them.
00:38:06
Speaker
And also, yeah, like ah based around maybe what wanting to try specific things out. Like I did ah couple of records that were more, I guess, kind of working with ah musicians or singers from Sorry from different folk traditions, like I did a record with a an Indonesian musician, ah Tegu Permanagh, who plays a taro angsa, which is like a two-string instrument. And I really felt like I wanted to make a record with this sort of high floaty string instrument as a lead melody. And I'd wanted to do that for a while.
00:38:46
Speaker
And yeah through a mutual friend we kind of got linked up. and i already kind of had this sort of idea of this could be a nice thing to do. so yeah Sometimes it's just maybe ideas that you have bubbling and then the right yeah yeah but opportunity comes up. but um But yeah, but no i collaborated a a lot and that was also actually the reason why for the last two records I really wanted to just do something totally myself for a change actually. So it's... right Yeah, but prior to the last two records it was
00:39:18
Speaker
yeah quite some years of of of working on collaborative projects which is also fantastic and know i really love that too and i think i've done these two records now and it looks like i'm kind of then going into a little bit more of a collaborative phase you know now for the next next year or so and uh and then it maybe come back again so it's nice to say they're back and forth I love that kind of micro idea of, yeah, because I'd have the same thought process of, I'd love to have this high, interesting sound, but for me it would be like, for this one bar in this one song. yeah I want to make an album of that, yeah, yeah yeah i'm I guess. Yeah, I'm pretty basic, so it's, yeah, I try and get as far as I can on the on the limited ideas. Yeah.
00:40:04
Speaker
But there's beauty in that for sure. You know, it's like you can really get stuck into it. Because I love that ah a ah Anna Stamp. Is it the kind of more... Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's that's beautiful. um who who she What language is she that's It's Romanian. so she it wow She was introduced through a mutual friend as well.
00:40:26
Speaker
Actually, even first of all, because I was looking for and for a piano player to to play on on ah on a record, which is probably kind of primarily what she she works on is is with piano.
00:40:38
Speaker
and um yeah She had a whole bunch of kind of recordings of singing these Romanian folk carols. and i was like, oh, I really know just love these these these melody lines. you know these so such Such strong lines that have gone through the course of thousands of years. yeah they yeah So these great like earworms, which is something so so fantastic about um yeah older folk music. Yeah, that was a very nice project because you already had this, you know, really this melodic line, which was fixed. And, you know, you know there was you could interpret it or she could interpret it in certain ways, but...
00:41:16
Speaker
you know you kind of knew what you were dealing with melodically with the the main line and then i felt had this freedom to just then fill it in underneath with but different chords and ah different arrangements but yeah that was a ah fun way to work like having yeah you know this this lead line to go with at the beginning and you know starting from starting from point of having nothing underneath it and then filling it in yeah it was fun yeah interesting But the time.
00:41:51
Speaker
And me. And so.
00:42:16
Speaker
I'm so happy.
00:42:38
Speaker
In that context, do you kind of see yourself as a producer? Is it kind of you facilitating it and finishing it as a record? and like Or is the collaboration within that process as well? you kind of bouncing? you know you kind of saying What do you think of this? With that particular record, I kind of wanted to approach it with ah a producer's hat on.
00:42:56
Speaker
But there was there was a lot of discussion also no of lyrically, the content of the songs, the the feeling of what they they should get across. and So it was a ah real collaborative process in in discussing that, but generally then I would i would go away and I would create ah the the music to to to fit the the the the vocal performance. And think almost in all cases it was, yeah, it was like a really, really smooth process. And we kind of saw sore things on the same wavelength of what the
00:43:29
Speaker
of what the of what what the the melody lines and not needed because they don't need anything at all to stand up. But what what was a ah way to to add to them without it feeling like it's taking something away was the challenge, I guess. Yeah.
00:43:46
Speaker
yeah did Do you have to practice restraint or do you think you're fairly good at keeping things minimal? Because, yeah, I certainly suffer from... Yeah, I mean, just loud more yeah yeah if you if you you know that if I listen to that record now, you know i have to say there's like there are certain things that I wouldn't have put in it. I think it could have been even more sparse.
00:44:07
Speaker
um But yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult when you're when you're in it, you know, to know when when the when is enough. But um yeah, I think jim generally...
00:44:19
Speaker
I'm getting better. Like, i mean, I've done projects in the past, like 10 years ago where it was, you know, layer after layer, everything had to have like two effects on it. A kind of almost like OCD thing of like, if you, if you didn't like touch the part and add something to it and run it through something, then it was, it's not ready or something, but I think I'm pretty relaxed. Yeah.
Approach to Music and Creativity
00:44:40
Speaker
I've got more relaxed. I think my music could have gone way more, uh, high fidelity and I could have gotten a lot better at recording and, uh,
00:44:50
Speaker
producing but part of me just kind of also decided like ah fuck it i'm i'm not like super bothered about that i'm just gonna like focus more on playing and doesn't really matter like how good it sounds or i don't know it's not quite that uh laissez-faire or whatever but i'm i used to be very obsessive about production and now i've i think it's a bit of an albatross off my neck is that it off the albatross off the neck or the back one of the two yeah But ah ah yeah, I've kind of dropped that and I'm not so perfectionistic about like everything being super high definition or, you know, there can be like, instead of crafting like this one perfect piece of art, just like keep making and keep making and then look at the whole thing as a body of work over however many years. And somehow if you think that way, maybe takes a bit of the pressure off for like everything to be like the the the one, you know what mean? Yeah, yeah.
00:45:47
Speaker
Yeah, now hear that. and How does that work in the kind of in the label side of things? Do do you act as a bit of an A&R as well? Do you have to switch your...
00:46:02
Speaker
mentality or your approach when when working with either other people's music or your own music when it comes to the release side of it? Yeah, I mean, I'm quite maybe sort of unusual or a weirdo in the sense that I can kind of seem to really enjoy, you know, i can get lost in the creative side.
00:46:21
Speaker
and get pretty airy-fairy with it. But also I really don't mind sitting in front of a Excel spreadsheet and just like crunching numbers out and like being practical with stuff too. So I think I can kind of switch a bit between the two in terms of, no and you know, like some people would really not want to be doing all of the admin for their own release, like sorting out the distribution, yeah yeah all this kind of stuff. But for me, it's yeah for some reason I can have both hats on in a way that feels fairly comfortable and natural and not feel like you know I'm kind of forcing anything in terms of like pushing the record out there. or
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, i mean, for my from my own stuff, I somehow seem to navigate the two smoothly. and And I kind of quite like just having oversight and control over the whole process. And it's it's interesting to me too, like just from a sort of puzzle perspective of like how you can put the record out. and But yeah, at the same time, it's it's not like I'm doing crazy like PR stuff whatever.
00:47:27
Speaker
It's all very pretty low key and I do rely on a lot of it as organic growth over over time. well That's kind of like my my strategy, really just keep making music and hopefully things slowly grow.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah, man. I mean, it's beautiful and and and prolific as well. You know, it's kind of digging in, you know, ahead of this and kind of, yeah, I guess making those links to where I first heard your music and then kind of filling in the gaps between, yeah, I guess you've kind of come back into my world somehow.
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah. um But that's the way it goes, right? and Yeah. you know, we we kind of have that as well you get You can get really obsessed in the moment, can't you, of releasing an album of like, oh, you know, I want it to reach these people or whatever. And it's like, that will happen, you know, if you just keep creating. And yeah, I think like getting hung up on...
00:48:30
Speaker
the last record or you know forgetting of like what the fun of the process as well you know yeah i keep coming back to that of like somehow miraculously i guess we're both in a similar position in through self-releasing and you know i've kind of done that as well myself and yeah you're in an amazing position where there's like okay there's a small audience here that you know i don't have to do this but there's an opportunity and yeah why wouldn't you want to just make the next record oh totally i mean it's it's it's honestly fantastic and like ah yeah i'm i mean i if you'd have said you know 10 15 years ago i would be in this position now where you know i can
00:49:11
Speaker
put a record out and I feel that there is an audience there and people appreciate it and you know it means something to people and Yeah, I mean it's it's great, you know long long may it may continue really mean, yeah, I mean it's not easy and of course if you're doing it yourself and releasing yourself, you know you you have to like everyone does I think you know battle battle multiple kind of demons and insecurities and you know oh yeah some sometimes records come out really easy and you know and sometimes they don't and i think i mean i can't speak for other people but no there might be points or times where where i kind of think okay i've i've done this enough now that like i've kind of cracked i've cracked
00:49:55
Speaker
how it works how i need to like approach it how i need to do it to make it less simple and yeah for me it's you never know can think something's going to be the easiest thing to do and it's you psychologically have to really struggle to get it through and it can be vice versa so yeah it it remains a mystery um but uh the main thing is just like yeah don't stop and and and keep keep going and if you've got the energy to kind of kind of do that and the love for it, then it really helps you like wade through the the difficult moments of of finishing a finishing an album, of which there are many, as I'm sure you know.
00:50:37
Speaker
Amen to that. Well, well let's let's leave it there, Johnny. But um yeah, thank you so much for for joining me. um It's been really interesting. Yeah, thank you so much.
00:50:47
Speaker
Yeah, you're welcome, Pete. No, really, really appreciate you having me on.
00:51:03
Speaker
Alright, hope you enjoyed that. Real pleasure to talk to Johnny there and, yeah, connect all those different kind of facets of music of his that have affected me in different ways over the years.
00:51:19
Speaker
As I said at the beginning, do do dig in. There's so much amazing music that's either come out of his mind or or his label melodies as truth.
00:51:31
Speaker
Yeah, super, super special artist. And particularly as we're all sort of hunkering down for winter, I'd highly recommend it to soundtrack these dark, drizzly days, of which there seems to be many more to come.
00:51:46
Speaker
All right. Well, thanks for sticking around and I'll be back soon. Probably with another one from the archive. People seem to be really digging them. Again, you can go back, listen to interview with Zakia or Hannah Peel.
00:52:03
Speaker
Or the more recent ones with the brilliant Corto Alto, Jasmine Myra and Andrew PM Hunt, to name a few. Alright, until then, um stay safe and stay dry.
00:52:16
Speaker
You've been listening to Pete from Ishmael Ensemble and the Catching Light podcast. See soon.