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EP.08 Tom Skinner
31 Plays1 day ago
Pete welcomes drummer and composer Tom Skinner for a deep dive into his musical journey so far. From a keen teenage jazz head jumping in on jam sessions across London in the late 90's, helping lay the foundations for the UK jazz boom alongside fellow Tomorrow's Warriors Tom Herbert, Soweto Kinch & Dave Okumu at the Jazz Cafe in the early 00's, forming Sons Of Kemet with Shabaka Hutchings, becoming bandmates with Thom Yorke & Jonny Greenwood in The Smile, to now releasing his second eponymous album Kaleidoscopic Visions - Tom's rhythm's have played a major part in shaping the sound of UK jazz and beyond for the last two and a half decades...
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Transcript
Introduction and Special Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey folks, how you doing? Pete from Ishmael Ensemble here recording this on a very cold but beautiful frosty morning in the park in Bristol.
Tom Skinner's Musical Journey
00:00:17
Speaker
Delighted to share this episode of Catching Light with very special guest Tom Skinner who... has just released ah brand new album, but has also been involved in quite a few.
00:00:35
Speaker
incredible projects over the years. I guess most notably The Smile alongside Tom York and Johnny Greenwood. ah The kind of nascent yeah UK jazz scene.
00:00:48
Speaker
I guess sort of the the generation before the big UK jazz boom that we all know about. But Tom was playing at the Jazz Cafe, of the ta Tomorrow's Warriors and Shabaka and Tom Herbert, Dave Okumu, Soweto Kinch.
00:01:05
Speaker
that kind of generation in the late 90s early noughties and also which is where we're going to start a conversation as the drummer in the raw dog band which for any uk hip-hop fans may remember from the time of task force and jest louis slippers 10 pound bag mixtapes which yeah were kind of the soundtrack to my skateboarding teenage years at school so without really knowing until I sort of dug in.
00:01:38
Speaker
Tom and his music's kind of been soundtracking most of my teenage and adult life. So it was a ah real pleasure to get stuck in and hear more about his journey, which kind of hasn't stopped since being a teenager and turning up at Jazz Jams.
00:01:58
Speaker
He's sort of just continued to to play music professionally and Yeah, it's certainly been a kind of mainstay in in the yeah UK, whether through The Smile or Zero Seven or on the jazz circuit. I kind of go pretty deep and talk about the whole journey. It's quite linear, not deliberately, but that's just kind of how the conversation flowed. and Yeah, really enjoyed this one.
00:02:26
Speaker
Tom's music's great and it's real pleasure to to get stuck in and hear all about it. So enjoy.
Influences and Early Collaborations
00:02:33
Speaker
um This is Pete from Ishmael Ensemble. You're listening to Catching Light with the drummer, Tom Skinner.
00:02:39
Speaker
Enjoy.
00:03:03
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:03:12
Speaker
Afternoon everyone, Pete here from Ismail Ensemble and delighted today to be joined by drummer, percussionist, composer and a musician that kind of has been present without me knowing actually for most of my life and that is Tom Skinner. Hey Tom, how you doing?
00:03:34
Speaker
Hello Pete, I'm good thanks, good to be here, thanks for the invite. No worries. um I should quickly say why that is, because I went on a bit of deep dive. Right. I think like it was a bit of well, no, not a deep dive on you, but just like a nostalgia trip of UK hip hop, which was like very much. All right, here we go.
00:03:57
Speaker
Yeah. Which was what me and my my mates at you know school were werere into kind of. Yeah, rolling around skateboarding and everything that's associated with that and listening to UK hip hop and, ah you know, was a massive like Task Force fan, Fire Life Cypher, all of that kind of crew. And then, of course yeah, I was just on a bit of a YouTube binge. And right part of that was like the Raw Dog Band, which... yeah I kind of loved because yeah I guess I was into all that DJing and stuff but also playing sax and doing the kind of school band thing and yeah yeah was just like watching this video of um I think it was one of those kung fu sessions or something and yeah just heard Chester P like and make some noise for the drummer Tom Skinner I was just like No way! Okay, so you've been soundtracking most of my teenage years onwards. Maybe you came saw us at the Thekla. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Played it a couple of times, I think.
00:04:54
Speaker
And Glastonbury, I remember it then in night when it was the just like the dance village at Glastonbury, remember that being like a really special moment with loads of mates from school that were like, oh, we're actually, because that Raw Dog CD was like, ah don't I don't know, just, ah yeah, as I say. Bit of an underground.
00:05:12
Speaker
The Louis slippers one. Yeah. it yeah all my ten pound bag target The The volume one was was kind of... Yeah. Well, all of them, really, but volume one definitely was is kind of legendary, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:05:25
Speaker
So how how do you slot into that? Were you just kind of mates with Louis or...? well we We all went to school together, like me and Louis and his brother Jesse. Right. We all grew up in the same area, went to the same school. and and then But I mean, I kind of sort of got to know them properly, though like after we left school.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, and like started playing music with them. And Louis was already working with Task Force with Chester and Farmer. Yeah. We also were like local. They were just sort of and in the hybrid.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, and then we just started doing... gigs as the raw dog band with them. And yeah, it was fun. It was a good time. That was that it seems like a long time ago, which it is. So I thought of like, wow, I didn't expect to talking about that. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, neither did I. Yeah, it's because that was like 2002, 2003. Yeah, we did a couple of Glastonbury shows. That was when Glastonbury, I don't know if you remember Lost Vagueness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like the area we played like two, I think two years in a row. or Yeah.
00:06:25
Speaker
Maybe there was ah a year in between or something, but it was kind of a wild time. But yeah, it was fun. and we used yeah we came down to We did a bunch of gigs obviously in London, but then around the UK and Bristol. There was always a big fan base in Bristol.
00:06:39
Speaker
So that it was fun. like Those shows could get pretty wild as well. There was a lot of stage diving. It was more like a punk show in a way. But that's a one where where it where it where where it got to anyway.
00:06:51
Speaker
yeah it was fun ah It's such a wicked time. It just felt like properly underground as well. I guess it was the start of like CD burning and stuff, there'd just be a few... Like those mixtapes, you know, that everyone would have a ah copy of around school, and you know still in the Walkman era, and...
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it was just a really like special time and felt like for me the first kind of music I felt that was like other than what my parents had right sort of introduced me to. Got connected to something.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, fascinating. I thought just, ah yeah, touch on that because, yeah, it's quite, as you say, what, it's like 25 odd years ago. Almost 25 years ago, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:34
Speaker
Wow. Growing my age there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean now I chat people who were born later than that and they're like professional musicians about it. Like I'm literally talking about an era before your time. or yeah Yeah. Yeah, man. Cool. say I mean, that that was obviously a bit of a a live scene happening in London. was Was there a kind of jazz side to that? Were you always playing the jazz thing? and Oh yeah, definitely. We didn't.
00:08:08
Speaker
even before was doing the raw dog thing like tom herbert also went to the same school right the amazing bass player who plays in my group um he's a little bit older than me and then shortly after that met david kumu as well right okay great guitarist to yeah yeah the songwriter um so we yeah and andrew mcormack as well i met at the guildhall summer school and So, and yeah, and I really got into jazz around that time, 12, 13, 14 years old. And I was like, really like heavily into jazz, you know, my thing.
00:08:41
Speaker
And we used to go to jam sessions together a place called The Jazz Bistro in in London. It was in Farringdon. It was like a really late night jam session. and used to go down there when I was like, yeah, just a really young teenager.
00:08:57
Speaker
kind of illegally, I shouldn't have really been there. but Were you getting up and playing? or Yeah, playing. The house band had Gene Calderazzo in it it just moved over from New York and like Julian Siegel, um Ricardo but on bass and Phil Robson, like you know amazing players and I used to go down there and sit in like late on a Friday night to and be there until sometimes 4 or 5 in the morning yeah and then like get a taxi home.
00:09:26
Speaker
But yeah, I'd sit in and play you know play with all those guys and that was really kind of that was really my my learning. and then that doing that And then practicing with Tom, Dave and Andrew, used to get together play at my parents' house. and Because my mu my mum is a ah pianist as well. right had a piano in the house and so we'd rehearse them at my place. And yeah, I mean, that was it. It was just like every opportunity we'd get together and play and rehearse and like writing our own, you know, trying to write our own music, but also
00:09:56
Speaker
trying to play like our heroes and all the people we we were listening to going back to like Miles and Coltrane obviously but then you know contemporary musicians as well you know sort of more modern day people like Michelle or we were really into Steve Coleman This is sort like mid 90s, Steve Williamson and also the whole UK jazz scene that was happening then as well. And that was sort of, you know, Tomorrow's Warriors was already thing, the Jazz Warriors.
00:10:26
Speaker
um And so that was also another jam session that we used to go down to at the Jazz Cafe, which was Gary Crosby's group, right which became Tomorrow's Warriors. But initially it was with Byron Wallen and Tony Kofi and Dennis Baptiste and yeah um you know so they were playing ah you know I remember seeing posters for that jam session in Kentish Town when I was kind of you know 13, 14 yeah then started going down there and then that's sort of also when that initial group led the way for the following group of Tomorrow's Warriors which included Jason Yard, Julie Dexter, Gary's son Daniel on on drums, areric Darren Abrahams on bass, Robert Mitchell on piano so They became like the the new Tomorrow's Warriors and they were running the jam and we used to go down there and sit in and got to know those guys.
00:11:12
Speaker
um And then eventually we all became the next Tomorrow's Warriors, which was me and Tom, Tom Herbert and Dave Kumu, Andrew McCormack, Soweto Kinch, Sean Corby.
00:11:25
Speaker
And then we took over that jam session in like 98, think, 98, 99 maybe. But then I was playing every week at the Jazz Cafe, which was just just down the road from where I grew up as well. So it was like local.
00:11:39
Speaker
We play there every Sunday and then once a month we go to Birmingham. and to do a jam there. like that was like you know So really my learning was like on on the gigs, in the rehearsal room, playing with my peers, trying to try and do the thing, you know i'm going to jam sessions, etc.
00:11:58
Speaker
so And that was even that was before the stuff we were talking about before, before the whole broad-dropping and that came a bit later. but so yeah you know i I never went to music college. you know A lot of my friends did, like Tom and Andrew, they they were both at the Guild Hall. That was kind of an option When I left school, when I was 18, 98, you know, that would have been one way to go.
00:12:19
Speaker
And it was something that I was considering. But then I was already kind of gigging and doing the thing that I wanted to do. So ah thought, well, I'll just have a year out and just carry on doing what I'm doing because I'm already doing the thing. I was already. Yeah, yeah.
00:12:34
Speaker
I think by that point I was playing with like Dennis Baptiste right i in his in his quartet um and a couple other groups as well. So I just ah thought, okay, I'm just going to have a bit of time out and just try and do do the thing and then see where i see where I'm at in a year or a couple of years or something.
00:12:51
Speaker
But then that was it. I never went to music college. I just just got into to to being a professional musician, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but When I was like 18. Amazing. and So, yeah, and I think obviously growing up in London made that possible. And bit and sort of from a young age, I was kind of integrated into the sort of wider scene of music scene and jazz scene in London. So it kind of that, yeah, it made it possible for me to do that.
00:13:15
Speaker
um So I feel quite grateful that I had those opportunities and that growing up in a metropolis like London can can give you. no
00:13:53
Speaker
What was the audience like at that kind of time? Was it a younger crew? Yeah, I mean, like when but the Jazz Cafe session every Sunday, we it was always a great crowd. and We had loads of regulars coming down. It was very mixed, a lot of young people. It felt really happening. And I feel like that era of Tomorrow's Warriors and that particular group has kind of been a bit overlooked. yeah and But it was kind it was pretty instrumental in in shaping a lot of what came after it. you know and you know
00:14:24
Speaker
People like Soweto, or all of us really went on to do really you know great and interesting things. and um yeah So this whole thing of like the the the British jazz explosion of 2015 2016, I think it's great. I'm really happy that that's happened but it's not you know it's not really a new thing yeah yeah
Expanding Musical Horizons
00:14:44
Speaker
you know and even before way before my time it's it was it's been happening know the uk jazz scene has been quite a fertile environment for for many years so um but yeah but still you know this era i feel like there's definitely a bigger audience and perhaps there's more of a unique kind of identity in the sound of what's been happening in the last 10 years or so but like i say i feel like people like myself and shabaka and soweto and
00:15:09
Speaker
Jason Yard and or all those people before have definitely helped to make that happen and and shape shake that sound. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What it's become today, you know, so. Yeah. And were playing original material then or was it more kind of standards based or yeah? well We were, yeah. I mean, with the the Jazz Cafe session, it was...
00:15:33
Speaker
We did play some original stuff, but we played standards as well, but we do like our own kind of arrangements of standards. and And we'd really stretch out, like because we'd always play a set and then there'd be a break and then there'd be the jam.
00:15:45
Speaker
But our set was like, we'd really, really stretch out and take them. Because we were playing the same songs every week as well, it got to the point where we were really kind of exploring those pieces of music.
00:15:56
Speaker
and taking it pretty far out and yeah it was a great time actually. And just getting to play regularly like that with the same group, I feel like for young musicians it's like that's what I always tell people is like just find your people and then just like play as much as you can and like do your thing and just try and find your voice within the music because that's what it's all about for me really. And that trust amongst each other, right? Is like... Potential, yeah. Yeah. And that, because once you've built that, it doesn't go anywhere, you know, like, it just gets better. It just gets, becomes more richer, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like I said, you know, still play with Tom and Dave.
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah. And we do we have that connection. So whatever whatever we do, whatever context we're playing in, whether it's my group or... we play as a trio sometimes or if it's like Days Band or whatever, you know, we have that that deep, deep connection. So whatever context we put in, there's always just that, like you say, that trust mean theres is worth so much, feel like.
00:16:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, completely. I mean, yeah, much the same for me really, you know, like particularly two of the guys that play in my group, are you know, we went to school together and yeah, when I kind of started it, I was, they they don't live in Bristol and you know, they're kind of like, you've got your pick of the bunch of these amazing jazz musicians, you know, in the Bristol scene or whatever. and yeah But the fact I'd sort of been playing with them since pretty much primary school, you know, but yeah,
00:17:24
Speaker
I don't have to explain anything to you guys. We can just get it going. Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:02
Speaker
And what about the progression of that? like Were you touring as well? Were you kind of doing sessions or were you were you joining bands? and That kind of came a bit later. I feel like I was you know like very very much through my teens, I got into jazz and I was like, this is my thing. i've been know I was just very focused on playing that music and learning that music. and I mean, I've always had a really broad ear and broad taste in music and always had to have been listening to lots of different things.
00:18:28
Speaker
But at that time, was very much in in that world. And then I guess by the time I left school, I was working a lot and kind of already like in different groups and kind of just kept doing that for a little while on the kind of UK jazz scene. And, you know, there's ah there's a circuit in the UK that you can you can play and do all these like national shows and you can do that and make a decent enough living just sort of traveling up and down the country playing all these different little clubs and stuff and which is all well and good but I feel I kind of got to the point where I just felt like I didn't really see where that was going it you know there was like a ceiling to that that it sort of it just felt a little bit restrictive in a way and I think that it kind of coincided with my my musical tastes just kind of broadening and and also just sort of wanting to get into doing some other work also better paid work you know like doing session work it was a way to earn more money and and so you know so I kind of there was a point where I sort of made a sort of quite a clear decision that I wanted to sort of not stop playing jazz but just like I wanted to be able to do other stuff yeah so I kind of made a conscious decision to do that and sort of put myself out there in in that way and yeah and that and that kind of paid off and you know then eventually I was sort doing sessions more kind of like
00:19:44
Speaker
I don't know, not necessarily up pop, but just yeah more kind of studio session work for artists or different projects and stuff like that. um Yeah. And then so one one of one of those projects with was Zero Seven.
00:19:58
Speaker
no so right sorry So I started working with them. of when they recorded their third record called The Garden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um So that was sort of a big moment for me, getting getting to know those guys and working with them and sort of getting into the way they were working in the studio. And actually the first sessions that we did for that album, we did with Nigel Godrich at his studio. Okay. He was at the hospital at that time. So he wasn't producing the record, but but we used his studio and he engineered that session. So that was my first time meeting Nigel
00:20:32
Speaker
yeah Getting to know with no him and working with him and that was a really great experience. you know um So yeah, and then then kind of off the back of that other session work and my sort of musical world just sort of expanded. Were you taken out to stage then as well? Did you go on the road with Zero Seven? Yeah, exactly. So then you know we made the record and then and then I went on tour with them. and we toured all all around Europe and America and that was like the first time like doing a proper tour like on the tour bus and playing like big big stages and and touring in the US and yeah I mean it was super fun basically you know in my 20s like getting to do that yeah it was a really good time.
00:21:15
Speaker
Amazing. ah Did that relationship with Nigel kind of continue or Yeah, I mean, i not not initially.
Forming Sons of Kemet and Its Impact
00:21:21
Speaker
I mean, i I guess we kind of knew each other then, you know, worked together and I'd see him you know occasionally see him around bump into him or whatever and then I guess it definitely kind of sowed the seed for certain things that had that came later but just sort of know you know knowing him and getting to know him that way but and and interestingly we actually grew up in the same area and went to the same primary school and stuff like that which we only found out later but we had another connection from the same neck of the woods right but yeah I guess yeah I mean that that relationship definitely kind of
00:21:54
Speaker
led on to eventually working with Tom and Johnny in The Smile and stuff like that but but that obviously be kind of came some years later.
00:22:32
Speaker
my first actual awareness ah of your stuff beyond Roaldog was, ah you know, the Sons of Kemet and that, which I guess, you know, did sort of come into focus with, as you say, the whole UK jazz boom. Yeah, I mean, the Sons of Kemet started in 2011.
00:22:48
Speaker
Yeah. With Seb as well, right? With Seb, yeah. Me and Seb and Oren Marshall andba and Shabaka. And it was Shabaka's, it was always Shabaka's group. It was his concept. It was his music.
00:22:59
Speaker
hi Okay. and But... you know But it was a band. and like Before that, so I'd met Chewbacca, maybe. He'd come through the Tomorrow's Warriors thing and he'd...
00:23:11
Speaker
He was in Birmingham and went to school in Birmingham then came to London to go to the Guildhall in 2004 or 2005. I can't remember exactly when we first met, but I guess suddenly I was aware of this young, tall gentleman who was really, really great. Somehow we came to play together. Pre-Sons of Kemic, we had another group called ZU, which is a trio. with Chewbacca and Neil Charles playing electric bass. We made one record that came out on the Babel label. Okay. Nighttime on the Middle Passage, it's called. It's kind of a sick record and no one knows about it. Yeah, yeah. But there's some cool music on there. So we had that group and so I was
00:23:59
Speaker
We started playing with Chewbacca around that time and then that led on to to Sons of Kemet, which we started in 2011. And then we yeah we did the first two records. I feel like the first two records, like people on the kind of jazz jazz scene knew about the band. i mean We had like quite a big following in that kind of world.
00:24:18
Speaker
Even before we put out the first record, we'd been playing, doing gigs for like two years or something before the first record came out. And so so by which time we we definitely had like a bit of a following.
00:24:28
Speaker
and And then the second one as well, but I feel like it didn't really, maybe the second one sort started to kind of like get noticed outside of that sort of world. But it wasn't really until we signed with Impulse that it became like really big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then also I was started releasing my own music as well, like around that kind of time, if you're talking about the in-between time. In 2012, put out my first record under the name Hello Skinny. Yeah, yeah. Well, some of it was kind of jazz-ish, but it was kind of more electronic leaning and it was more like a sort of studio. so The first one was very much like a bedroom
00:25:01
Speaker
production kind of album, you know, but just I guess sort of trying to like find my own voice within this sort of vast world of music that I was inspired by. yeah, yeah. So it was quite an ambitious, I sort of wanted to try and kind of bring a lot of disparate kind of things together and in one strange brew. Yeah, yeah. So that was happening, Sons of Kemet and then also with the the Raw Dog guys, Louis and Jesse, we we um started another project which was a collaboration with some Kenyan musicians called Owini Sagoma Band, which we released. ended up releasing three studio records with Brownswood. So that kind of started in 2009, think was the first
00:25:45
Speaker
trip we went we did to Kenya, which kind of led on to the three records. The last one was in 2015. So going back to Nigel as well, like around the time that Tom and Nigel were doing Atoms for Peace, we put out our second record. So they they were always like playing out a Winnie stuff in the first record, so which we kind of noticed. And Tom and Nigel played like one of my Hello Skinny things on like KCRW radio show or something. yeah So they you know going back to what you were saying about that, you know, did that, my connection with Nigel, it was like, he' that I think he was obviously And they were obviously aware of what we were doing, kind of into it. So when we put the second album out with a Winnie Sagoma, they asked us to to join them on tour with Atoms for Peace around Europe. So we did a whole tour around Europe supporting Atoms for Peace. And that's that's when I got to know Tom.
00:26:30
Speaker
Right. Yeah, yeah, I got to meet him properly and got to know him a little bit. and Yeah, yeah. im Yeah, so that was like another connection. And then actually sort of again, sort of in that kind of interim period, I'd also worked with Johnny, working on the soundtrack for Paul Thomas Anderson film, The Master. Oh yeah. Which we did going back to, there's all these links suddenly on the puzzles kind of thing together. But so that session that we did for Johnny was with Chebacca and Neil, which was the band ZU, which was three sons of Kemet.
00:27:02
Speaker
So you can check it out. There's a really good, there's like one really great track that features us on on that soundtrack. Right.
Electronic Music and Genre Blending
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah. It's called Able-bodied Seaman. It's got Joaquin Phoenix swearing a lot at the beginning. So I don't know. It's a great track. and it's yeah yeah Me and Chewbacca and Neil.
00:27:21
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, yeah, cool. And like, were you a Radiohead fan or was that kind of not on your radar? Yeah, yeah. From Kid A, basically. like I got obsessed with that record when that came out.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what I mean. Like, you know, I was having kind of been like heavily, heavily into the jazz thing by the sort of turn of the century. by the millennium or whatever yeah like 2001 kid a that was that made a huge impact on me yeah yeah um i guess just sort of i don't know i just found that record incredibly inspiring it's quite audacious and just sort of yeah just just made me realize that kind of anything is possible music you know you didn't have to kind of
00:28:07
Speaker
conform to any particular style or genre or whatever, you know, you could be experimental and be like a massive rock band at the same time. know, that was very inquiring.
00:28:20
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, yeah, quite a legacy of music, isn't it? It's obviously... Yeah, I guess I was a bit younger in yeah the sense where I was probably amongst the the crowd that were a bit thrown by it initially because I didn't have the context of, like, so the wider musical yeah sphere happening at the time. But, yeah, yeah, for sure. And and you spoke about electronic music kind of influencing the Hello Skinny stuff. Was that... ah Yeah.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah. where Where does that fit in? Was that a UK electronic scene or just kind of stuff? Yeah, partly. And I used to share the house with myself, David Kumu, and then another really close friend of mine, Leo Taylor, who's a also a fantastic drummer. Right. john He's John Taylor and Norma Winston's son.
00:29:06
Speaker
No way. like right. And yeah, he's he's a a ridiculous musician and percussionist. but So when Leo moved in with us, like he brought all his records and like he was much more like aware of what was going on in the sort of electronic music scene, house music. you know He kind of introduced me to a lot of house music and techno. He had a band called Gram, which was kind of like sort of influenced a lot by Liquid Liquids and the sort of like disco, not disco, kind of um so punk funk. kind of thing so When we were living together, he introduced me to lots of stuff that I just hadn't ever really heard and again, just widened my sort of musical knowledge.
00:29:47
Speaker
and so but he He was a big influence on on that. and but yeah and Also, what was happening in London as well, like the bass scene like i guess kind of coming out of dubstep. and how that kind of overlaps with artists like Flying Lotus and that was happening in LA and that whole kind of scene I used to go down to Plastic People a lot and go and play like all night.
00:30:15
Speaker
yeah You know, it was a very like fertile time in London at that that that time and you know like Shoreditch wasn't what it is now. It was like pretty grimy and and you know edgy before it all had to move up the road to Dawson which even now has become more kind of gentrified but i but yeah it was a really exciting time and there was actress as well as another person who i you know I got really into him I still love what he does and a lot of the music that was kind of surrounding that club and kind of coming out that scene was definitely a big influence on me as well at that time
00:31:28
Speaker
Such a special period, you know, I mean that, yeah, for me is very much moving Bristol really and in the kind of height of the dubstep thing with what Pinch and those guys were doing. and Yeah, so they used to have dub loaded like once a month on a Wednesday that I used to get the bus into and yeah, you'd have like...
00:31:48
Speaker
you know code nine and those guys kind of playing in sort yeah i guess 2006 seven eight like yeah and yeah just be literally like 30 40 people in a dark room loads of wicked bass music from bristol as well like i was really into that label skull disco oh man apple shackleton and yeah yeah yeah apple blim as well yeah oh man laurie apple blim is like yeah bit of a kind of so It's really funny, i I've kind of reconnected since, because my my brother lives in Berlin and some of his friends are ended up being housemates with Laurie. But yeah, I was very much like, you know, 16 year old in the smoking area, sort chatting to to all of those guys. But yeah, Laurie Appleblum was always so, just genuinely kind of supportive. and Right. Yeah, I loved that whole Skull Disco thing, it was kind of... It was wicked, yeah. Yeah. Very unique. Yeah.
00:32:42
Speaker
Totally. Yeah, they used to do a night at Thekla as well, which was like just mind-blowing. And I feel so lucky, i guess, just being on that cusp of the digital accessible kind of era where I still got a taste of that dubplate culture of you'd literally the only place you could hear this music was in this room. And it might end up being like a a terrible recording end up on Bare Files or something, but like like a mono recording. mix with loads of noise on the right or something recorded yeah yeah put here or something like that yeah or like a think pad with only like a broken jack or something but yeah yeah yeah real like unique and special time for sure and i think i don't know about you but yeah it felt like maybe today maybe this is rose tinted glasses but there was like a convergence or like you know there's a
00:33:33
Speaker
accepting of like live music and the electronic world where people weren't like looking down at electronic music as like oh it's just you know whack a four four kick on it or away it's just for people on drugs or whatever you know there was a real like well particularly you know talk about flying lotus and stuff there's a real crossover that you know cosmogramma and you know with this jazz jazz world yeah and how that yeah exactly how that influenced how people approaching their instruments, they particularly drums I guess is ah is an obvious kind of example but yeah trying to play like you know those productions or Dilla as well, you know,
00:34:16
Speaker
When I discovered his music, that was a big thing. But yeah, it had an effect that had on on instrumentalists. you know and So yeah, that I think that that was another thing. like Living with Leo was like this listening to a lot more kind of dance music and electronic music, house and techno and stuff. It was then trying to play that stuff on the drums live. and sort of yeah yeah Yeah, that was you know that was kind of trying you know starting to explore the music in that way as well. It was really interesting, I think.
00:34:43
Speaker
And yeah, I guess there's that element of not even human error or like machine error. I love, you know, kind of hear interviews with like Theo Parrish. Like, I love how he just like cuts out the kick or whatever. Like, why are you doing that? It's like, it just sounded like I just didn't play it in very well. I just deleted that like four and a half bars or, you know, it's like, yes You wouldn't ever like consciously write that. It's more through the process of like yeah a mistake and then being able to edit. But the only way you can edit is like deleting it. You can't re-sequence it on the NPC or whatever. you Yeah.
00:35:16
Speaker
Yeah. so Yeah. like that.
00:35:58
Speaker
We should probably talk about ah some of the newer stuff because no I feel wicked.
Releasing Music Under His Own Name
00:36:04
Speaker
Let's just stay in 2008 in this warm bubble. Yeah, sure. Let's talk about it.
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, um well I mean maybe let's start with with the the first Tom Skinner record because you know obviously you mentioned you had released solo albums per se before that yeah as Hello Skinny and ah yeah I guess what was the impetus of what like led you to feel now was the time to to be releasing music as Tom Skinner? Yeah I don't know I think initially I was sort of I didn't want to do it under my own name and when like when I was working on the Voices of Beshara record it was I was just going to call it Voices of Ashara and not have it under my name.
00:36:44
Speaker
But then through so different discussions with sort label people, suggesting, oh, have you thought about putting it you know putting it out under your own name? And initially, sort up to that point, I hadn't wanted to to release anything under my own name. And yeah, like i said, initially I was against the idea. but then when I started thinking about it more,
00:37:03
Speaker
I was like, oh actually, if I put this out under my own name, then in some ways it actually provides me a lot more freedom going forward in terms of what I do, what else I do. You know, if I put something out under my own name, it will kind of be anything. Yeah, yeah. If I put it out under like a band name or a sort of a different name, then that kind of thing has has an identity.
00:37:24
Speaker
It just allowed me quite a lot of freedom. I felt like, you know. So I could release a Tom Skinner record and it would be like an acoustic jazz thing and then I can release a Tom Skinner record and it could be like a solo drums record or an electronic thing or what, you know, I feel like I could do anything under my own name. So suddenly it became quite appealing.
00:37:43
Speaker
what Was there a fear that it did feel quite jazz to, you know, just use your name or? i mean, it wasn't like Tom Skinner Quintet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just my name. so not not really. I mean, it was, I guess it was the most jazz record that I've ever heard of my own music. But I don't know, it felt, you know, that project was recorded initially pre-COVID.
00:38:08
Speaker
Right, okay. Actually like a year before, i think we recorded it at the end of 2018. It was just before my first son was born. And then I kind of recorded it and then didn't really know what to do with it. I had this recording, but i was sort of like, ah, and then you know I had a kid and was like,
00:38:22
Speaker
I was just in that. and So I just sat on my hard drive for a while and then Covid happened the following year and I happened A friend of mine who had a studio in Bermondsey went away at the time that first lockdown happened.
00:38:40
Speaker
So his studio was available when he got offered it to me. So I sublet his studio for those first like three, four months of of lockdown. So I had access to this great space with a beautiful mixing desk in it and some nice outboard equipment and stuff like that.
00:38:58
Speaker
And so that was kind of what, you know, having like, you know, i had tours cancelled, you know, as everybody did, like loads of work just suddenly disappeared. But I had access to the studio. So that became my routine. It was like sort of three or four days a week. I'd drive down from North London to Bermondsey and it would take me like half an hour. And normally it would take at least an hour to get there. But literally the roads were just empty. So really wild time. It was that first lockdown summer.
00:39:24
Speaker
i with so Thinking back on it, it was actually kind of a magical time. Obviously not for a lot of people, it wasn't. but know yeah it it was The weather was good and like I was at home with my family. like you know so There was something kind of special about it. and then yeah and I had access to the studio, sorry I was going down there every week. and But then i was sort like, oh what am I going to do?
00:39:47
Speaker
my time and then I thought, yeah, I've got that recording that I haven't done anything with. I'm going to try and, you know, set myself a task. I'm going to mix this. going edit and mix this record and make a record. going to finish it because it's been sitting there for a year.
00:40:01
Speaker
I'm just going to finish it. So that was my project, basically. That was like my lockdown project. I finished that record and that's what I did. I did my own mixes, which were kind of decent enough and I was kind of quite pleased with them and enough to send them to Giles and started a dialogue with him about it but eventually i got it remixed by Dilip Demas who mixed all my stuff, he's amazing mix engine it but yeah that was my that was my sort of lockdown project and that kind of led to Voices of Bishara record coming out in 2022 I think.
00:40:49
Speaker
And then I guess there was the
00:41:15
Speaker
and i guess it was the The bit between with the smile and then were you kind of thinking about a follow-up record in that time or did this new record kind of stem from that as a continuation? Yeah, I mean, I think so the Voices of Bishara record came out and obviously that um features Chewbacca and Nabaya on bio studio recording, but obviously they were never able to to to play. like I think we did one show together like the very beginning of the project. But, you know, so post lockdown, code post COVID when things started opening up and we put the record out,
00:41:46
Speaker
um We started touring it but and then you know I invited Robert Stillman who is a fantastic musician, really close friend who actually I met years ago. He's from the States but we met when we were doing the Jazz Cafe Jam Session in 1999. So my relationship with him goes back to Ben as well. But anyway, so Robert came in and Chelsea as well, Chelsea k Carmichael. so yeah and And we started performing the you know the music live and and that and then the band um alongside Tom Herbert on bass and Kareem Days on cello, that really became the
Creative Process Behind the New Album
00:42:22
Speaker
band. And like I feel like
00:42:24
Speaker
It is really a band, like it's got a really special feeling that that group, just personally, i like them are my really close friends. And then you know we've had the chance to develop music over the last two, three years and just play actually quite a lot. We did a good run of gigs over the like the last sort the two years following that release. and i It just feels like a really special group of people.
00:42:50
Speaker
i'm so And then in in that interim we did actually release a live record we did a live recording at Mew, so that came out with International Anthem in 2024, I think.
00:43:02
Speaker
of i'm So yeah, I really felt like I found something which the sound with this group, with this these particular people, but also just the sound of the group itself with the instrumentation.
00:43:16
Speaker
With the strings on one side, you have the double bass and the cello. and then the woodwinds, saxophones, but doubling, clarinets and flutes. Actually in the middle it really felt like there was a lot of scope composition that I could explore with that instrumentation and with that line-up. So I just really wanted to, with this follow-up album, Colleidoscopic Visions that's just come out, I really wanted to just try and explore the the sound of the group even more and then also try and dig a bit deeper into my own compositional voice as well because the the voice of the Bashara album, I mean it's it's my music, it's original music but it's very much kind of derived from deconstructing other people's music and whereas this time around it was more like I wanted to just really explore my own voice
00:44:03
Speaker
and just find out more about what I had to say as a composer. The first record was like done in like literally like a few hours. in one We would be set up in one room, so there's a lot of like bleed on the mics and stuff like that, which presented a lot of challenges in terms of mixing it. but again And it gave it a certain kind of sound, which was cool, but this time around I really wanted to have more control over this the sound of of the recording and the production. So it's much more a studio production with a lot more time in writing it and recording it and editing it and piecing it together as a as a record. and
00:44:43
Speaker
So yeah, in that sense, it's much more kind of considered in some way and through Compose than the previous album. And yeah, I just really didn't want to kind of limit myself in terms of what I was hearing but for the for the pieces. and So there's a lot more kind of multi-tracking of Woodwinds and also me playing some guitar and vibraphone and percussion. Whatever I was hearing, I wanted to kind of go with it.
00:45:12
Speaker
So it's it's a lot more ambitious than the previous record and just a lot wider in scope, I feel. you know So um I put a lot of work into it and I i feel I feel really pleased with the outcome. I feel like it's a very, and think it's a very kind of fun strong sort body of work.
00:45:35
Speaker
So hopefully other people will think the same, but anyway.
00:46:18
Speaker
No, it's beautiful. And like, yeah, I really kind of hear it as ah as a... It's a, you know, a record record as... If that makes sense, you know, it's ah it's a real real listening experience. Yeah, I mean, it's and it's intended to be that, you know, i ideally I'd like people to listen to it from start to finish because I feel like there is a certain kind of arc to the whole piece as a whole. And that actually a lot of the pieces are related in terms of the kind of compositional process that I took that, you know, you can and you can kind of hear it hidden in there. There are some themes and some melodic material that if you listen closely, you can actually hear it
00:46:56
Speaker
throughout the album. yeah yeah yeah um I used a similar kind of process of deconstructing sort of melodic material to find new material for different pieces. So yeah, anyway.
00:47:07
Speaker
Yeah, but no, it's quite like a classical kind of process, I guess, in that well the the lineup itself is is almost like a a mini orchestra, I guess, with, as you say, the way woodwinds and strings. and um yeah But super acoustic as well, and it really creates a very sort of human feel where often, you know, a lot of newer records that, you know, you could almost hear, can't you, if a producer's been like,
00:47:36
Speaker
oh, this is wicked, but have you seen this rack of gear? How about let's stick it through all of this, then everyone gets excited and goes a bit wild, which I definitely do. um So yeah, I know. It's really, really nice to hear such a kind of a pure record. Not to say there isn't. light I mean, there is some really fascinating production techniques, actually. but but Yeah, mean is for I mean, some some of my favourite production...
00:48:01
Speaker
is the kind of production that you don't really notice. Exactly. feel like if you notice those things, then maybe you're trying too hard or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're done in a real subtle way. There's one little moment in the opening track. There's one, don't know if it's a reverse or something, there's one little moment with a bass. But it only happens once. And that, in a way, feels very human and organic. Sure. And I mean, the vocal production is amazing.
00:48:31
Speaker
Let's just quickly touch on the the Michelle collab because, yeah. um not She's amazing. ah like Yeah, she's someone you've, I guess, been a fan of for a long time before this. is like going back to yeah like the first time ah I went to Glastonbury was in I was and her first record Plantation Lullabies had just come out or was it just about to come out?
00:48:57
Speaker
I think my sister had a CD single of If That's Your Boyfriend Wasn't Last Night and I stole that off her. i was and i really into that song and then I went to Glastonbury and I saw that Michelle was playing so I went to see her on Friday and she played at what was called the Jazz World stage back then which is now West Holt's stage. and So went to see her on the Friday night there, sorry Friday daytime there and completely blown away. It was one of the best, even still, one of the besties I've ever seen. It was just insanely good. And then the next stage she played at the NME stage, which is now the other stage, I think. I went to see her again the following day.
00:49:39
Speaker
All my friends were off doing Acid somewhere or something, but I was i was i was very much there for the music. and yeah yeah so And ever since then, she you know i was a huge fan of hers, and every record that came out,
00:49:52
Speaker
like I love loved all her records and whenever she came through town we'd go and see her, like me and Dave and Tom, that we were all like really banging to her and what she was doing, it was very inspiring.
00:50:05
Speaker
Kind of encompassed all the kind of things that we were trying to do as well, like because it kind of had jazz in it but then it was kind of hip-hop at the same time she just had this and soul soulful but you know or even kind of spooky as well like some of some of her yeah yeah yeah that album bitter then you know that but it's like super acoustic kind of folk record in a way so yeah she was sort of doing this thing that was that no one else was doing that was incredibly inspiring to all of us and so yeah she she's been a huge inspiration to me going back as far as that and Yeah, like more recently in the last couple of years, you know, I got to meet her and got to know her through essentially through her drummer, Abe. Abe Rounds is a music musician.
00:50:47
Speaker
We kind of connected on Instagram or something and he messaged me about the smile or something then we were chatting and then and then he was like oh yeah we're coming through to to London do you want to come to the show with Michelle and so yeah went went to meet him went to see them play which was and I hadn't seen her but at that point for probably like at least 10 maybe even 15 years right I hadn't seen her play live. and so it was like kind of i was like was like recon Even before i actually met her seeing the play, it was like reconnecting with her music again. And it was like such a phenomenal concert. was just like blown away.
00:51:25
Speaker
And then, yeah, got to meet Abe afterwards and then then went backstage and met Michelle. And then we ended up hanging out that night until quite late. And yeah, we just, I guess, a friendship formed, you know, and and from then we'd we'd we'd stay in touch and we'd send music to each other, like send messages or whatever and just talking about whatever, you know, music and other things. And whenever they came through to London, i'd I'd go and see them and we'd get chance to hang out and stuff. So so yeah, a friend a friendship evolved out of that initial meeting and then when I was working on the record, I think I'd already got the vocal track from Kari, Lucas, Kontor. His vocal was the first vocal track to be completed for the record. I got that back from him and then at that point, I think I hadn't really thought about more like other vocalists, but sort of through
00:52:17
Speaker
writing new stuff and working on the stuff that we'd already recorded. There was one piece where I just suddenly heard Michelle on it and I was sort of like, do you think I can ask her to... I asked my wife, I was like, you think I can ask her to do something on it? She was like, yeah, I mean, she can only say no. I just sent her this thing. It was like, you know, do you think, would you be up for writing something for this?
00:52:40
Speaker
She said she was up for it. So I feel like I was asking quite a lot though, because it, you know, it wasn't like a short piece of music. It wasn't like a verse chorus, verse chorus kind of thing. It was this like open ended 10 minute kind of extended group improvisation essentially. So, Was it written in that, was it like the instrumental was there basically pretty much? That particular piece came out of, I think I had these two separate loops that we just trapped for like 20 minutes on each thing, just improvising around these kind of sketchy loop ideas. And they were always like two parts of one piece, but I just didn't really know how they would fit together. And so I had the first bit, and that's what I sent her initially. And once she agreed to write something for it, I then...
00:53:26
Speaker
kind of reworked the second half and and kind of that's what you know I kind of replayed it again but with like guitars and so that whole kind of second half of the the track where it just shifts into like this whole other world that was very much produced with her in mind like knowing that she was going to sing on it I kind of reworked it in that way so so that was quite it was a it was a nice process doing that with her in mind like you know replaying things and reworking it and sats for her specifically and then yeah yeah um and then getting the vocal back was just like an amazing moment where like yeah I just it's just and I love that about collaborating with people you know you can you never know
00:54:13
Speaker
that you can only go so far with something until you present it to somebody else and they hear something in it that you can never in your wildest dreams imagine. But it's perfect. yeah yeah yeah And that's very much what is what what her vocal is on that on that song. i just i It's kind of astounding that she was able to kind of create that song out of what I gave her. The way she paced the vocal and structured the whole thing. I didn't really change anything.
00:54:39
Speaker
Right. You know, from when she when she sent me back the vocal, like that's that's her structure. I feel like it's a very special thing. And like yeah collaboration is is a very special thing. And and my um everything is, all my music is really based around that.
00:54:54
Speaker
The band itself, you know it's about collaboration with those people, um you know, and all the guests, it's the same
Upcoming Performances and Collaborations
00:55:01
Speaker
kind of thing. So that's really at the kind of heart of everything that i do. Yeah, I feel like though it's very much my piece, that it's my production and with that in mind, it's like that the the kind of overall vision for the whole project is kind has come from me. So yeah.
00:55:44
Speaker
Welcome to
00:56:02
Speaker
Wow. I mean, what a treat to to get to work with these people, though, right? Yeah, for me, that it's such a journey, that tune. Yeah. It feels like the epicentre of, you know everything's kind of building up to it and then falling away from Yeah, it's kind of the centrepiece of that album, in a way. Yeah. That's true. um Yeah, I mean, yeah, amazing stuff. ah On that one, the Maxim, which features the legendary Michel Mbegio cello and... Yeah, is Tom Skinner my guest today. um From the album Kaleidoscopic Visions, which you're taking to London Jazz Festival at the end of the month, right? That's right, yeah, should say. Did I spot, you've got Adrian Utley, Bristol legend
Conclusion and Future Projects
00:56:45
Speaker
with you. yeah Yeah, he's on the record as well. He's featured on the album on the first track. and Yeah.
00:56:52
Speaker
Logue with Contour he's playing guitar on that so yeah super excited to have Adrian join us for for the show we're playing at the Queen Elizabeth Hall on the 21st of November as part of the London Jazz Festival yeah in couple of weeks so yeah really looking forward to that Yeah.
00:57:10
Speaker
Amazing. um Hey, Tom, thank you so much. We've kind of gone all over the place here in the last hour. I hope I didn't yeah make you feel too old by suggesting I've been listening to you most of my life. but um I was also a kid at the time. So yeah, it's, ah yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's been a long, long ride of, of listening to your drums with with without knowing, but. Right. Great. Well, you settling into my, my old age or my mid-lade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's, it's nice to know that you've been listening for that time.
00:57:48
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're doing it in ah in a beautiful way. I think, yeah, the the new record is is really, really special. And as Tom says, you know, give it your hour of your time to stick the headphones on and and listen deep because it's it's a pretty special, special record. Great.
00:58:07
Speaker
Thank you, Pete. Yeah, no worries. Thanks so much, Tom. And hopefully catch you in real life at some point soon. Yeah, absolutely.
00:58:19
Speaker
Every time I find myself Every time I find myself Every time I find myself
00:58:53
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed that. It was great to chat and go under the hood of the world of music of Tom Skinner. I'll be back soon with another one from the archives and yeah more guests to come.
00:59:09
Speaker
Hope you're acclimatising to these colder, darker days and yeah, hunkering down for winter. We're kind of deep, deep writing the next record which has been really fun.
00:59:21
Speaker
and prepping the rituals orchestra show which there's still a few tickets left for next may which seems like a long way off but if this year is anything to go by will come around very soon um yeah hope you have a lovely few weeks and uh catch you soon thanks for listening cheers