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EP.06 Zakia
71 Plays23 days ago
This week Pete is joined by broadcaster, writer & DJ, Zakia Sewell. At a time when the country feels more divided than ever, finding pride and reason to celebrate the music and folk traditions of Britain is conflicting, however on her BBC radio documentary My Albion, Zakia navigated this rough terrain with careful and often challenging clarity - this chat digs into that world as well as Zakia's early days behind the counter of Honest Jon's, her NTS show "Questing" which soundtracked many of our weekends & how to stay focused in a world of distraction.
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Transcript
Introduction: Pete with Zakia Sewell
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey guys, how you doing? Pete here from Ishmael Ensemble, back with another episode of Catching Light. um This week we stepped back into the archives to a chat I had with the broadcaster...
00:00:18
Speaker
DJ and radio journalist Zakia Sewell. um You may know Zakia from her brilliant show on Six Music at the moment, Dreaming, or her previous show on NTS called Questing, which was certainly the soundtrack to many of my weekend mornings.
Zakia's Work and Britain's History
00:00:41
Speaker
Don't know about you,
00:00:43
Speaker
um She's also done some great radio journalism, a brilliant show called My Albion on the BBC. And yeah, just overall really interesting person that kind of...
00:00:59
Speaker
yeah, I guess has done a lot to dissect the history of Britain and culturally and through folk traditions kind of explored the light and dark sides of that, which, yeah, we go into quite a lot and particularly just at the moment, you know, what's been going on.
00:01:20
Speaker
the kind of division in the UK at the moment. It felt really nice to kind of touch base back to, yeah, I guess that feeling I've always struggled with where, you know, grew up listening to and loving folk music and a lot of the traditions of the country we live in.
00:01:40
Speaker
But um at the same time, it always being in the shadow of these kind of dark, overtones of you know colonialism and oppression and yeah we kind of just spend a lot of time dwelling on that and i don't know feels like a nice bit of sort of solidarity to to reinforce what maybe a lot of us are feeling at the moment we also get into her history behind the counter of honest john's records which if you don't know is a amazing shop in west london
00:02:16
Speaker
um How she got into radio and the fine line between kind of DJ and curator and yeah, telling a journey with music and not just playing bangers.
00:02:32
Speaker
um Really nice chat for these kind of autumnal days.
Post-lockdown Reflections
00:02:37
Speaker
Currently out walking. up a big hill forgive if I'm sounding a bit out of breath but yeah anyway this was recorded a few years ago now so it's a bit of kind of post lockdown chat and it's kind of funny listening back to your younger self um but as I say still lots of the topics discussed are even more relevant today so yeah enjoy and I'll see you on the other side cheers
00:03:32
Speaker
Afternoon everyone, this is Pete from Ishmael Ensemble with you on SWOOH FM this afternoon and delighted to introduce my guest this month, Zakia Sul. Hey Zakia, how you doing?
00:03:43
Speaker
Hello, I'm good, I'm good. um i forgot I've just had a nice big bowl of porridge and feeling ready for the day. Nice, we're saying it's definitely porridge season now, right? and Days are getting shorter. It is, it feels it feels like winter's here, although I'm quite enjoying the kind of crisp, sunny, autumnal vibes of today, so I'm not not going to complain too much about the end of summer. Yeah, yeah. How are you acclimatising to sort of things being a bit more normal these days?
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think I think i i and quite a lot of my friends actually had a little bit of a kind of post-Freedon slump, a little bit, you know, like after this sort of anticipation of being released back into the world and then the release feeling a bit anticlimactic somehow.
00:04:27
Speaker
um But then I i went on holiday, I went to Greece for a bit and then I was in Wales and then i was in Ibiza and then so that kind of, that blew the cobwebs away and I definitely feel a bit more refreshed and like excited about being in London and stuff like that again but i kind of needed a bit of a reset for sure.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah, to come back to it, right? It's it's almost like a New Year's Eve party, you know, it's never like the night of your dreams you imagined, you sort of get there and it's like, oh, you throw all the pressure onto it. Is this what we've been waiting for over the last year and half? Is this it? Is this what life was before? Yeah. like confusing I think also for a lot of people that I've spoken to as well it's like all of those sort of like you know all the self-reflection and all the kind of like new visions and like let's do things differently and da da da like when things opened up all that went out of the window a little bit so I think it's now for me it's like okay
00:05:21
Speaker
Now that there's been that kind of initial flurry of of freedom, it's like for me trying to then reconnect with the things that I was kind of reflecting on and the think we know the goals that I set or the kind of new ways of thinking or being that I was hopeful about you know during the lockdown, trying sort of actually put some of those things into place. So yeah, change of the season is quite good for that though, I feel.
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. It's sort of kind of a good sort of back to school time. It almost feels like quite a natural time of year to be going through that. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:05:56
Speaker
um Cool.
Zakia's Musical Background and DJ Beginnings
00:05:57
Speaker
say i mean, the main reason I've got you on is just because I'm a big fan of, you know, you as ah a DJ and a broadcaster and avid listener to the questing show on Saturday and yeah kind of always from afar just enjoyed your output and um I guess up until now all my guests have been more sort of musicians or songwriters and I've always wondered with like more DJ or sort of tastemaker-y sort of leaning people like how how their journey started with music and um yeah I wonder like were you ah child digging records out and you know DJing in your mind before you knew it or like where did your journey of music start?
00:06:47
Speaker
um I guess it's it yeah it started probably before I was born because both my parents are musicians or were. Not really by trade but like you know my dad's a gardener and my mum was a drama teacher but like they they played music together that's how they met.
00:07:03
Speaker
um They used to be in a kind of acid jazz band called Fat Casper that never never went anywhere, but they did um they did support Jamiroquai on tour before he blew up. so So that was, I guess that was like in my DNA. And my dad is a multi-instrumentalist, my mum sings.
00:07:21
Speaker
So, you know, I spent a lot of my childhood... i mean, my mom was gigging, i think, until she was eight months pregnant. So, know, there's kind of musical legacy. But then, yeah, I spent a lot of my childhood at like, just around musicians, you know, at rehearsals.
00:07:37
Speaker
at gigs, at parties with you know everyone like jamming and smoking weed around and blah blah, falling asleep on the sofa to you know to music being played. So that was that was kind of my my upbringing really. And and then also that my dad is an avid listener and collector of sorts of music. So you know it's a big it's kind of like it's it's in it's in the family. and then I guess i've always um I've always collected music, like I guess from, know, it's quite funny, like i might I had a bit of an iTunes nightmare recently and like I need to have a big clear out, but there's like stuff on there that I know I've done, like I've carried with me from laptop to laptop or whatever that I must have downloaded is when I was like 13 and I still, you know, still got it So, you know, it started off like,
00:08:25
Speaker
downloading things or like sending things up on Bluetooth and like, you know, having my little MP3 stick, which had a strange combination of like Ashanti and Ja Rule and then like Pentangle and then natural progression from digital to vinyl when I was at university and stuff. But I think I've always kind of been in that process of like harvesting music and so for quite a long time. It's such a weird thing, you know, I think for all of our generation, there was that period where like you've got a home computer and like it's the early days of the internet.
00:08:56
Speaker
And I don't know about you, but I wasn't quite sure what to do with it. So I just sort of sit at LimeWire and just like, what bands do I know? Oh, I type you know, like, yeah, as you say, the the randomist assortment of like...
00:09:10
Speaker
oh van morrison that's a name i know i'll type that in and then equally like some terrible you know casper slide or whatever this yeah trying to like rack your brain and i always actually remember my first experience of the internet was was like a big fan of placebo and all i knew the only website i knew was like the placebo chat room are right so i just to like type that in and sit there and then like talk to someone in arizona and be like do you like placebo yes yes i do that's why i'm in this chat room did you have msn messenger yeah yeah it's so funny as well i think that's something that's common with like some of my friends have still got their like email addresses from that era it's just like
00:09:58
Speaker
think my brother's was like smoky bearfish monkey hotmail.com, you know, or just like the randomest things. And there's a few of them, the legacy of that era. that's what That's what I find quite funny about like the NTS chat room, because in a way it's quite like an old, it's quite an old fashioned thing, you know, to like log in and have your like, your kind of like your username. And it's kind of like a throwback thing, but it's kind of nice. Like it's,
00:10:22
Speaker
that people, well, A, I wonder who are the people, are they are they people who were like in chat rooms like, you know, 10, 15 years ago? And are they the ones who are like, in the in an hour, is like a new wave of like young people who are like into this chat room culture? Because in a way, it's kind of like a quite outdated old school thing Yeah, I mean, I guess that's something that's really nice about your show as well,
Community and Listening Habits During Lockdown
00:10:44
Speaker
right? There seems to be this community and in a way that's a weekend morning slot.
00:10:49
Speaker
People are up to such different stuff. It must be quite fun just getting that insight into people's worlds. Yeah, I guess like it's it's kind of it's an interesting slot because...
00:11:01
Speaker
it's um It's way less active than like the week the weekday mornings because like not many people are at their laptop like you know in the chat. And a lot of people are hungover and you know do it exactly in all kinds of states on a Saturday morning. But over the lockdown, that you know it kind of i felt like that kind of engagement and in the chat room like really massively increased because suddenly everyone was like at home um on a Saturday morning, bright-eyed and ready to go like at ten am m like you know um and it's been interesting like i think now now that like um and i feel like it was a real lifeline and thing and a kind of connection point as well for people i think just like charlie's show and like a lot of the other live shows it'd be like oh like i'm listening i can't see my friends but we're both listening to this show and we're connecting through music in this moment together and there's a kind of live synergy and connection that happens which is really nice
00:11:55
Speaker
So now that now that it's like the world's opened up again, it's sort of like, you notice there's like a few less, there's not so much engagement at like 10.02. But like, I guess it's a different kind of listening. It's more like people are listening in the background where they're like making their breakfast or whatever, you know, rather than kind of like really ah engaging in in the chat room. so but yeah, it's a nice it's a nice routine and and rhythm for me because because I freelance so like,
00:12:23
Speaker
You know, my my weeks in general are a bit higgledy-piggledy, whereas this is like the one anchor point that's like a regular, consistent, nice ritual. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um Was DJing something you were kind of always into, or did you find it quite late? You know, where where did DJing start on that timeline of archiving and collecting music?
00:12:45
Speaker
You know, the classic thing, you're just like always the person who's like puts on stuff at parties, know? And so then you kind of like, kind of like that and you've got your curated little playlists and as you like from, you know, school days.
00:12:59
Speaker
And then i guess when I was at university, my boyfriend at the time, like he, he was, um, That's actually like my chat up line to him was like, I asked for his number so I could get like advice on turntables. And that was the start of our relationship. But again, he used to DJ and then, then like, so we, we kind of did, we're on that journey a bit together. And then when i was at university, I started playing a few nights. And then I think because before I went to uni, I grew up in London. And before I went to uni, I was like out a lot in London. So I'd already kind of met quite a lot of people. I was,
00:13:33
Speaker
kind of like, you know, going to live music stuff, going to parties, going to raves. And so I was already quite connected to that scene. So when I came back from university, kind of like picked that back up and just through like being a participant and then meeting people and then getting in conversations and being like, oh yeah, I've got, you know, been connecting or I've played few times or this. Actually, there's a night called Steeze that used to happen in South London where actually lot of the kind of new London jazz wave, like Nubiah, like people from like Ezra Collective and of them played at Steeze.
00:14:11
Speaker
um and actually steez was my first gig because they came to oxford where i was studying and they that that was my first dj set and then when i when i came back to london they like invited me to play there and that was like my first little thing so again obviously then met so many people it's kind of you meet these people and then tip five years later everyone's like doing their thing and it's quite nice to sort of have been connected to them for a little while so um Amazing.
00:14:36
Speaker
what What sort of tunes are you playing at Stee's? I mean, that's interesting. Because obviously, as you say, like that and and similar nights around around London were a big part of that scene blowing up for musicians. But then I'd be interested to hear the kind of DJ's side of that and and maybe an influence coming from older
Musical Tastes and Academic Life
00:14:56
Speaker
music maybe? or Yeah, definitely. I guess when I first started like buying records and like I used work in Honest John's...
00:15:03
Speaker
um which is, yeah, in in West London, which is like an amazing shop. I learned so much being there. And I think that also was like a kind of a very important step in kind of in my career or like, I hate the word career, but yeah, you know, on my joke or my journey.
00:15:24
Speaker
But yeah, so when i fought but when I first kind of started playing records, I was very, i was like very very into jazz and and a lot of that kind of like 70s jazz funk and stuff like that. So yeah, I was i was playing that sort of thing, more like soul funk jazz kind of vibes.
00:15:38
Speaker
And it would just be playing like in between in between sets or like a little bit of a dance afterwards. It was like you know it was more like gig vibes rather than club club. But to be honest, like even to this day, I still don't really identify as a DJ as such. you know i kind of and and And I like playing clubs and festivals and stuff like that, but it's not really like it's not my... Sometimes I feel like a bit of a fraud because I know there's some people who really...
00:16:02
Speaker
that is the thing and and for me I kind of feel like I've fallen into it and it's a happy lovely accident but it's not my it's not my most kind of you know i don't feel necessarily at home DJing in a club environment all the time you know because there's quite a lot of other aspects of my taste and interest that i don't feel like I can really express in that space you know. For sure yeah yeah yeah.
00:16:27
Speaker
Any big tunes that used to go off at Stee's? I can't remember. I mean, like i just the tune that it comes to mind is I think like Expansions by Lonnie Liston-Smith. That was probably like a track that I would have played back then and that was kind of my, that that whole vibe.
00:16:42
Speaker
So in a way, it's kind of, in in ways not much has changed. yeah You know, it's kind of still kind of cosmic cosmic slightly cosmic vibes. But also this was like music that i my dad was quite into his jazz and his spiritual jazz and stuff like that. So I guess I kind of rediscovered it for myself. But like my dad was very much into Ferris Sanders and Alice Coltrane and all those people. And I think I kind of rediscovered it when I was like, you know, 18, 19. But the seeds had been sown when I was a bit younger. You said you were studying at a similar time. Did you kind of have two parallel worlds, as it were? were you What were you studying and what was that side of the journey? Yeah, so I was studying English literature and I was at Oxford, which was very intense and um a kind of...
00:17:32
Speaker
I kind of just kind of got spat out there unexpectedly because I just sort of had a tutor at my college at my college that was like, oh, you should apply for Oxford. And I was like, oh, yeah, OK, I'll apply. But i I really wanted to go to Manchester, Liverpool or Leeds.
00:17:46
Speaker
I was ready to just go to a party uni. And then I ended up, I got in and I ended up being there in this kind of alien environment and it being very intense um academically, but also just socially as well. So yeah, I had this kind of weird split screen because I was sort of there doing all this like really intense work, like having to read like, you know, three books a week or in my last year, i was writing like three essays a week. It was like super intellectually challenging. And then my best friend was at Manchester. So I just like run away and escape and then like, you know, go and like part, like rave in Manchester. So I was kind of living this double life a bit. So so when I finished the university, I just was like, that was horrible. I hated it. And so I'm just going to do something, leave all of that behind and just go and like, I just want to do music. I just wanted, so I started volunteering at NTS. That's when I got my job at Honest John's and that kind of intellectual world kind of just like left that behind.
00:18:42
Speaker
But I guess with the radio documentary stuff, I finally feel like I'm in a place where maybe both those aspects are kind of being expressed and I can sort of be, I can do both things. So I guess that kind of explains some of like my more research interests and that my relationship with music is like very intuitive and visceral, but at the same time I'm always interested in like the histories and the stories and the like the background and the narratives, the company, music, and and have you know identity and things like that. so that's so That's what I mean I guess what about the club DJing sometimes. I kind of feel like I i like to have kind i like the context as well as the kind of, you know, just the bodily aspects of music. so yeah.
00:19:23
Speaker
For sure. Was there a moment kind of early on when you were starting on NTS that you were like, oh, this is really nice to go super in-depth on a particular genre or sound? and yeah Is there anything in particular that you'd dive deep into early on that that inspired that?
00:19:42
Speaker
I think more so being Honest Johns because I used to work on a Wednesday and Thursday, which is like quite quiet midweek. And um so in a way, I just used to sit and and just make my way through all the CDs and all that, you know, I just like choose a section and just like listen all day.
00:20:01
Speaker
And, you know, occasionally serve customers and, you know, file records and things like that. And um I guess that was where, but in particular, ah got quite interested in like the folk music and like music from around the world. like There's in a really amazing series called Okora, which is a kind of i think it's a French radio thing. And it's like a series of like all these basically just different musical traditions from like all around the world, very obscure places. Anything from kind of like you know Serbian group singing to...
00:20:32
Speaker
um you know, pygmy polyphony in the Congo. and so So I would just make my way through this and that that was I guess when I started to like really develop this interest in the traditional music and finding these kind of connections and parallels I guess between these distinct and different traditions.
00:20:51
Speaker
is It's interesting because it's unusual because it sounds a bit like this or it's always like a kind of straightforward, chilling listen. That was when I developed that interest in in like and folk, not like English folk, but just folk music in general.
00:21:32
Speaker
you started to DJ on NTS was that was that a while after you'd sort of been volunteering there? Yeah, so I was, um yeah, i was volunteering as a producer for like maybe I don't know, like a year or so. And then, um then like, actually I was working at Honest John's and I think like Femi and Sean came into Honest John's one time and like, we were chatting and they're like, oh, you know, you should do a show. And i was like, oh yeah.
00:21:57
Speaker
But i think i was just too scared. I think I was like, I just didn't feel ready. But I guess I remember when that the seed was planted, i started to think about like, what I would want my show to be and I was very yeah as I said I was very much at that stage more in the kind of jazzy headspace but I didn't want my I felt like i didn't want my show to just be that because I felt there was quite a lot of that around and also there'd probably be people who could do it way better than me so I remember sort being being honest johns and just like picking out random like just trying to be very like not trying to be eclectic but just like picking out random things that
00:22:31
Speaker
you know, that had some shared connection, but were kind of come coming from quite disparate places. And I think that was a sort of starting point for my for my show, ah where it's like, I'm really glad that I didn't limit myself to it thinking it's going to be a this show, it's going to be a that show.
00:22:47
Speaker
And that's, I guess, the idea of the quest is like there's some kind of, there's some thread that you're following. There's something that you're pursuing. It's not always obvious what it is, but there is like, there's is' this is thiss a connection.
00:22:59
Speaker
There's a thread that connects all these disparate things. And I think that's kind of, yeah, that's something that's, I guess, stayed with my, you know, stayed with me for, yeah, five, it's been fire like over five years now doing the show. So, yeah.
00:23:14
Speaker
Amazing. And I love that word you use, quest, you know, it's something that pops up a bit. And I noticed you kind of used that in the My Albion series for BBC, you know.
00:23:24
Speaker
in Is that something you kind of took ownership of or just like felt this is the word that describes my process? Well, there's a funny story.
00:23:35
Speaker
There's story of the quest. Um, because, so I was working in Honest John's and i was on my lunch break and I basically, there's a really nice cafe called McCann's in Labrote Grove, which I used to, it's like a Malaysian cafe I used to go and have my lunch in.
00:23:52
Speaker
And, um, I was, i was in there once on my lunch break and basically got chatting to, um, like a Sufi mystic, basically had this kind of serendipitous conversation with ah with this amazing um man who I never like and never miss saw again. i'd like got his email address, but he never got back to me. It was just this kind of like one of these crazy things. But he was talking he was talking about this quest. was talking about a quest, a quest.
00:24:21
Speaker
and using our kind of natural capacities for empathy and self-reflection, logic, you know, rationality, intuition, um using those things as as a kind of guide on this quest, on this kind of journey of of discovery and that and that kind of being the kind of almost like the spiritual journey or that kind of being the meaning of life in a way.
00:24:43
Speaker
And I remember, yeah, i kind of like was very moved by this conversation this kind of this conversation and Afterwards I just remember like I wrote it all with everything that he said down in my journal and I just like wrote the words quest really big and and it was all happening at the same time I had to choose the name for the show and I was like but questing that's that's that just felt like the name.
00:25:15
Speaker
I mean, let's let's talk a bit about um My Albion, which is something you put together for BBC and ah just thought was fantastic and and in a way sort of helped articulate something or at least sort of look into something that I've...
Exploring British Identity in 'My Albion'
00:25:33
Speaker
often struggled with, you know, as a British person and particularly around the whole last, what, four or five years of Brexit and all of that and and having, you know, a real struggle with kind of feeling proud of the people around me and and where I've come from and the music that I've been into, you know. So I grew up, you know, in in a small...
00:25:59
Speaker
village just outside of Bristol and and my dad and mum you know sort of big folk fans my dad would always take us as kids to these sort of you know folk festivals and travel around doing that kind of stuff and again similarly just played guitar and sang all these songs and was a great collector of music and you know still to this day is strolling around the house singing old folk tunes that he's collected and you know as a child I had this beautiful image of England and this tradition and you know obviously the the darker undertones come out as you grow up and learn more about the history of your country and and I've never been able to quite sort of get back to that feeling of um pride and kind of you know wanting to share and explore like the nice side of the history I guess and yeah I wonder sort of you know maybe it's part of your life as well but where where that kind of
00:26:55
Speaker
idea of really deeply exploring that sense of identity and Britishness and and Albion came from. Yeah, i I think there are three elements. So one of them is like my childhood in Wales. So i grew up in place called Hounslow, which is like out near Heathrow Airport in London. It's very kind of like, ah like sub, like just but like bleak, bleak suburbs, basically, with airplanes going up, like not a very kind of folky pastoral place at all.
00:27:22
Speaker
Like, so, but then thankfully, my grandparents lived in Wales and a place called Larn, which is on the Carmarthenshire coast, southwest Wales. which is just completely beautiful and wild and green and lush and kind of amazing and um dylan thomas that like famous welsh poet he he he lived and worked there and wrote a lot about lan and its walks and its and its landscapes and so it's kind of and i think a lot of other people have been drawn to it it's quite like a magical mystical place like there's a big castle and It's like a it's a tiny little town, but there's like a massive castle. and
00:28:01
Speaker
There's just a vibe, you know, there's just something there's something magical. So I spent i spent like all my summers there, I spent all my holidays there. I lived there for a bit with my grandma, and went to school there. and It was kind of, you know, half my childhood was spent exploring this wild, mystical, natural landscape.
00:28:22
Speaker
And I felt, I've always felt deeply connected to the landscape there. and And not just there, but then whenever I'm elsewhere in the country that reminds me of of that, or I get that wild, magical feeling, you know, i feel very connected to Britain and and to the, you know, the land.
00:28:38
Speaker
So that's the kind of foundation story. And then I guess my dad, as well as being into his jazz and everything else, was like, played in a folk band, kind of jazzy folk, like Pentangle. He was in this band from when I was like 10 to, you know, quite recently. So I spent a lot of, I'd be babysitting, like the band makes kids at the rehearsal and hearing, and they'd be playing on these old folk folks songs. Um,
00:29:03
Speaker
So that and then, you know, this this kind of infamous ah pentangle gig, which we talk about in the series going to see them live. It was their, you know, their reunion concert, i think, before some of the members died. um And just being very, very moved by the music and probably kind of being like then connecting back to these childhood experiences I've had of this, of the land and this other character, this other aspect of Britain that's like sort of the opposite of with all the kind of empire, ah nationalistic sort of,
00:29:37
Speaker
stuff that kind of gets bandied about it's like this old alternate um character so yeah so those so those things i guess those kind of after the pentangle gig and then as i was got a bit older started to just get more interested in folk music collect like you know interested in collecting it and then the folk traditions and then sort of like stories of the pagans and the druids and this like you know alternative British kind of spiritual culture, I guess, has always has fascinated me. But then i guess the the impetus with doing something with it, I guess, is like you know being mixed heritage and having, on the one hand, this connection to Britain and to these to this music and to these traditions and this kind of, you know, my my family, exploring my family heritage in the Caribbean and um you know learning more about enslavement and
00:30:29
Speaker
Actually, some of the folk traditions in Karakou, where my mum's parents are from, that kind of they they tell this story of resistance um in the face of oppression and enslavement at the hands of the British. So it's like I've got these kind of these two warring kind of narratives within me, and I guess that's where this, kind of again, to the quest for... I'll be in the search for some kind of resolution or some kind of meeting point or some alternative vision where both of these stories and narratives can kind of coincide in some harmony instead of conflict. so I guess that's kind of the, that was the mission.
00:31:14
Speaker
Come all you fair and tender girls that flourish
00:31:34
Speaker
I guess the one thing I took away is, you know, there's also a sort of level of oppression historically between the classes in England. Definitely. And like, you know, there were literally people that had no real association necessarily with like country and actually that idea of like the lord of the land and the monarchy ruling over just like didn't mean anything to a lot of people because they were living in like their own reality, which is like so different to the...
00:32:01
Speaker
knights in shining army you know read about as a kid or look up to as a child or you know didn i don't know um i think you know part of why it's hard to say for a lot of people i'm proud to be english i proud to be british is because like all of the associations of you know upper caste rule empire ah militarism and this kind of great britain this kind of narrative of superiority that is actually kind of you know based on the oppression and of others and extraction and you know so like But I guess, so that's very loaded and whereas like these folk traditions that as you say they kind of are expression, not to say that, I mean they're still dark, I mean like the blackface and Morris dancing is a good example of where even in this kind of utopian world of folk you can't escape some of these darker histories because they kind of trickle down, they're everywhere here in a sense. But it's like listening to some old folk song like, was it Georgie? There's one famous one that's about poaching.
00:33:07
Speaker
Someone's being sent off to Australia because they you know they they they were caught poaching and it's like you know the stories of the dispossessed um British working-class people throughout the centuries who have also kind of and benefited from those legacies of colonialism and Dada Dada through being here inevitably, but also um you know also connected to the fates of people across the empire because they have also been historically exploited by the ruling castles.
00:33:39
Speaker
you know i guess that these these are the stories that don't come out much, you know this kind of the things that connect us and the interweaving kind of fates that maybe people realised that there'd be a bit less kind of racism and hatred between people.
00:33:52
Speaker
between you know the the kind of no poorra of like yeah oppress
00:34:08
Speaker
Don't over
00:34:40
Speaker
Sort of moving on from that, I guess I'd be interested to hear like how you you sort of start a topic like that and and how you get into sort of pitching it almost. like how how Did you have a very strong idea of what MyAlbion would be um or was it very much a journey through the process? Yeah, it was a kind of um a journey through the process, I guess.
00:35:07
Speaker
So I've been making radio documentaries for a while now and like producing them and then dig like presenting a few. And um then it was actually during the first lockdown and this a producer that i've been working with called Alan Hall, who works at a production company for Falling Tree, who'd worked on...
00:35:27
Speaker
We'd worked on this quite intimate documentary about my relationship with my mum who's got schizophrenia and we wanted to do something else together because that had kind of been a really like special process. So he came to me and was like, oh, would you like do a series? Is there anything that you'd like to do it on? And we had discussed this idea of doing something around folk and exploring, know, maybe like exploring the kind of, you know, like people like, I was always curious about Davey Graham because Davey, you know, folk is sort of so white. And then remember like seeing picture, like hearing his music and was seeing a picture of him and I was like, oh, he's mixed race, isn't he? Because it turns out he's like part, he's half Guyanese. So, you know, we're thinking, oh, maybe like, you know, is it like, you know, the black folk singers or something that.
00:36:13
Speaker
But it was, it was just after George Floyd had been killed and, I was thinking a lot about my position, my privilege as a mixed race, you know, and British, black British woman and, um you know, my role and, you know, wanting to use my platform and, you know, you know I have access potentially to certain spaces like Radio 4 because I speak in a certain way or because I look a certain way and that, you know, even Even for me, that's like something I have to recognise my privileges. And so what could I offer? and what could i
00:36:50
Speaker
um you know how could I use the fact that I have this access, I have this platform to kind of do something meaningful as it as a kind of contribution? So all these all these thoughts kind of coalesced and i was also thinking about the the audience, like Radio 4, like what is the way to, how to communicate these some of these ideas to Radio 4, to a Radio 4 audience, which is largely a kind of white middle class, middle age audience.
00:37:16
Speaker
and what what what do they need to hear? like what do they need What do they need to be taught? and because and so it kind of It was a combination of all those things. and like I feel like a lot we kind of we we analyze blackness a lot. We put like blackness up. so you know One of the things I was thinking about for this ah series was like we could do something about like black political struggle black political struggles in the UK. We do that so much. We analyze and dissect blackness with under this kind of um lens but like we don't analyze whiteness very much we don't think about what the you know the fact that that is also a kind of constructed identity subject to kind of social forces and histories and um in relation to certain histories and so it was it just it kind of emerged
00:38:03
Speaker
kind of intuitively and like in the series it's I guess you kind of set it up as a quest and and there is also this sense of like I don't know where we're going, I don't know what the quest is, I know I'm feeling, I feel like I'm being beckoned on this journey but I don't actually, I don't, ah don't i'm not I'm not your average you know, quester in this sense you know, you know um and and it was it was like that, there was a genuine kind of unravelling emerging through the making of it.
00:38:30
Speaker
um Obviously I did a lot of research beforehand and I had a sense of who we'd want to talk to and stuff like that but the end point of the series I guess where there's this recognition that this Albion that I'm looking for it's not actually something that's in the past but it's more like something to work towards, it's more like a new vision. you know That wasn't planned, that was something that kind of emerged through the making of the series. so um Not to go on about questing, but like in that sense of like just you know pulling out a thread and not necessarily having it all mapped out, but following that and instinct. So that was that was kind of how it that's how it came about.
00:39:38
Speaker
I love that. And feel there's a bit of a revival of that maybe, you know, amongst our generation.
Interest in British History and Identity
00:39:45
Speaker
And in a way, maybe it is due to stuff like Brexit and that kind of divisive.
00:39:50
Speaker
political world we're living in and you know for me at least you know it feels like a need and like deeper than just like a thought process it's like oh i actually you know to exist i almost need to feel like i can be a part of something or have an identity that i feel comfortable with or you know like or or learn to be uncomfortable with and and accept that and and deal with it but um Yeah, I've noticed that like across the board. I love the the weird walk zine. and you know That's a funny funny thing around here. So you know me and my partner did did the classic thing and we finally got a dog. Yeah. last year and you know she that was like our access to discovering all this stuff and you know going on big long walks whatever the weather and and similarly back to my childhood you know grew up doing that with my parents going to the Standing Stones and you know someone here Stanton Drew and you know Avery and
00:40:51
Speaker
um and I feel that's been a route that a lot of our generation can sort of access and and look into and be excited by because it feels a bit detached from it feels other to the sort of colonial history and you know that side of things um how did you get in touch with the weird walk guys with was that did they approach you or Well, yeah, i i was I'd already, you know, because it's way up my street, so I was already like, I'd already bought the first of a few zines. And then, yeah, they got in touch after, i think made some they heard my Albion and they got in touch with me about um writing a piece for them, which was, it was really, it was really nice to be able to kind of almost like summarize the themes of the series, like series in in a different kind of, in a different medium.
00:41:40
Speaker
um And it was nice to, yeah, nice to, do a bit of writing. But yeah, there's definitely an appetite for it. And I think it's also about, it's it's about identity and it's also about the environment and the landscape, I think, as well.
00:41:56
Speaker
You know, in this time of climate crisis and think it's really important that people find that connection to the land and the landscape. In a way that's just like a kind of direct thing that's quite grounding and it's kind of cuts through all of the other stuff because it's just like, you know, how does it feel to walk this earth? You know, how...
00:42:16
Speaker
Do I feel safe? Do I feel at home? You know, these are they're quite sort of primal things. And i think I think in general, I think there's just a need for especially people like living in Western societies and in cities to really like re rediscover that connection to the landscapes. I think it's part of...
00:42:34
Speaker
where we're at collectively is like, you know, it's a symptom of that disconnection from the land itself. um So, and I feel like actually over lockdown, like a lot of people like almost, you know, because especially if you're in the city, but like all the good things about the city are gone, are turned off. You're like, what am I doing here? And I feel like a lot of people did kind of reconnect a bit more with like the natural world, which is a nice kind of by-product of the lockdown. But,
00:43:01
Speaker
Yeah, there's definitely, i feel like there's definitely something in the air. But I guess work part part of what was feeling with the series and also that put in that Weird Walk article was like, it's all great, standing stones and like going back and going, you know, the folk, it's all great, but like that can't be used as an excuse to like not deal with the other stuff. you know It's like,
00:43:20
Speaker
we need to be we need to be able to hold both things at once. Because I think even for me, I guess, you know, even for me at the start of the series, that was my hope. It was like, oh I'm going find this like bit, this period of British history, like 3000 years ago. They're like, if I, you know, i I could belong to that. Or that's the nice bit.
00:43:39
Speaker
But like that's just a fantasy, you know? yeah And that's about that's about kind of running away. And actually what we need, I think, if we're going to like really move on, is like an integrated sense of Britishness. that has like As you say, you know you're talking about in your family, there's probably someone who's that you know he's been involved in these histories. Yeah, probably. And same for all of us. or you know There's darkness around. It can't be avoided, whatever that, whether that's just colonialism or whatever else. but I think it's like...
00:44:07
Speaker
I think that's the kind of journey we need to go on as a country to be able to sort of be with that darkness and accept it and acknowledge it and be like, okay, this doesn't have to define us. And think it's, as as long as we sort of reject and suppress and hide those things away, that's that's when they do continue to define us. so I think that's kind of, that's what I hope, that's my hope for al this idea of Albion is a kind of integrated vision of Britain that can hold the lovely folky bits, as well as the, you know, the and acknowledgement of those more difficult and kind of
00:44:42
Speaker
traumatic histories so yeah
00:45:24
Speaker
I'm sorry.
Curating Musical Experiences
00:45:59
Speaker
So to bring it back to music, I saw, was it last week, you sort of curated and were part of the Boiler Room Festival. and And how's that as a sort of extension of of your collecting music to then be able to sort of put it on a stage and and act in that um curation capacity?
00:46:20
Speaker
Yeah, I loved it it was really It was really nice. It was like it was a very special evening. and We'd been having this conversation about the festival, think gigs and stuff were happening. It was like, you know, I was very much like sat in my bedroom like think like dreaming up this event and thinking oh we're gonna everyone's gonna be like together and what you know what are people gonna want to hear after this crazy time you know was um it was a real kind of dream fantasy vision because it was so different from like the reality at that time so then for it to kind of um become manifest and for it to be really be happening was very very
00:47:01
Speaker
special and yeah it did it it felt like quite a natural felt like a natural because it's similar you're using similar skills you're like trying to you're weaving together you're like okay like in the same when i'm putting my show together it's like okay how are these that i want there to be commonality i want there to be something shared i want there to be a flow but then you want it to be varied you want you know so um that it that process came quite naturally it felt that that kind of curatorial spirit is already there and what I do with my radio show and this is kind of just like doing it in 3D yeah but yeah it was it was very it was actually like the first gig that I've been to where everyone was stood up and what a difference that makes because like people are moving and like there's just a real special energy in the room it was yeah it was good
00:47:46
Speaker
Amazing. um Cool. Well, thanks so much. has been really interesting and nice to sort of, yeah, hear hear the story behind your journey and and where you're at at the moment.
00:48:00
Speaker
I'd love to just ask before we wrap up if there's anyone musically you're you're particularly excited about and anything you've been listening to that's maybe, you know, coming out at the moment or something you've discovered recently that, yeah. What what came to mind was just like, I guess one of the bands who played at at the at my festival, at my on my stage at the Freudian Festival, which is Wildflower, just because they they're just they're just phenomenal. like I've seen them live once before at the this the Crypt in Camberwell. It's like an old, like they do a lot jazz stuff down there. and
00:48:38
Speaker
was like blown away then but it was just they're just they're just they're so good they're so good live it's just such an exhilarating like having you like one minute you want to cry next minute you kind of want to like mosh like get into proper jazz mosh um and so i just would say if you can get the opportunity to see them live just do it because they're like just amazing and very powerful Tom Skinner, right? and Yeah. Tom Skinner, Idris Rahman and Leon Brishad on bass. Amazing.
00:49:10
Speaker
ah yeah. And who else? Who else? um I think one one to watch and someone that's got new music coming out is someone called Aiden. um They released a an EP on ah like the Goldsmiths record label that's called In Atari.
00:49:28
Speaker
And they're working on new music at the moment. um And that they just they just come to mind, just like a very kind of like a bit neo-soul-y, but kind of experimental, just beautiful voice, but interesting harmonies. And I'm looking forward to seeing what they're they're going to put out in next.
00:49:44
Speaker
um So those are the ones that ah come to mind. Amazing. Thanks so much. um Hey, Zaki, it's been really nice to chat and and yeah hear more about yourself. um Yeah, it's been it's been great. So um hopefully see you soon in the real world. and Yeah, thank you.
00:50:03
Speaker
Thanks for having me. yeah always Always nice to chat. and Thanks for inviting me. No worries.
00:50:10
Speaker
All right. Hope you enjoyed that. I'm still walking up this hill. um Yeah, really great to chat to Zakia. And if you don't know her work, then do, yeah, go check out my Albion.
00:50:25
Speaker
She's currently writing a book, going deeper into a lot of those themes. So look out for that. And yeah, her weekly show on Six Music called Dreaming. Alright, you've probably had enough of me breathing down your ear, so I'll leave it there.
00:50:41
Speaker
um Just a reminder, tickets are flying for our show alongside the Rituals Orchestra in next May. So i do grab one if you want to come to that.
00:50:53
Speaker
um yeah Hopefully see you soon. Alright, you've been listening to Catching Light with me, Pete, from Ishmael Ensemble. I'll see you soon. Cheers.
00:51:09
Speaker
you