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Embracing Diversity: A Blueprint for Inclusive Cities
52 Plays11 months ago
Embark on a thought-provoking journey with Yesmith Sánchez, a seasoned business strategist and DEI consultant, as she shares her transformative insights on diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in cities.
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Transcript
Introduction to Unraveling Cities Podcast
00:00:18
Speaker
Hi, I am Natalia. Welcome listeners to the Unraveling Cities podcast. Now we have another episode. I'm also very excited about this one. This is a very, very interesting topic that is
00:00:36
Speaker
very trendy nowadays in every company, in every post in Instagram, etc. So I'm excited to speak about this.
Meet Jasmine Sanchez: From Mexico to Finland
00:00:48
Speaker
And my guest today is a business strategy and diversity.
00:00:53
Speaker
equity and inclusion consultant with international professional experience. She has an interesting background and now she works as a head of consulting and senior day consultant at inclusive. So welcome Jasmine Sanchez. Thank you Natalia. I'm very happy to have you here. Thank you. I'm also very honored to be here and thank you for the invitation. Yeah. So could you tell us a little bit about yourself?
00:01:21
Speaker
Yes, of course. And thank you for the kind introduction. Besides a strategist, I am also a consultant, as you mentioned. But I think maybe what is interesting is to learn why these two things came to be. So I am originally from Mexico, but I have been living in Finland for about 16 years now. And just as a little background, when I was in Mexico, my career was already very well-built.
00:01:51
Speaker
like in the leadership level, and I was doing very well in general. And then when I moved to Finland, I realized that my career was hard to start from scratch, which of course I understood that I would need to start because I was starting anew in every aspect of my life. But I just didn't anticipate how hard it was going to be.
00:02:18
Speaker
That is perhaps the entry door that took me to actually wonder what happens to those of us who come to Finland. And we are coming here with our education, with our contributions to make. And then we are kind of told like, yes, but not today. And that was perhaps my original motivation to start learning more about these topics.
Supporting International Talent: Challenges and Insights
00:02:46
Speaker
And so I wrote my thesis at Hanken School of Economics, actually researching exactly that, what was the factors that organizations could do in order to make it easier for international talent. And that was already so long ago that it sort of makes me sad that we continue to speak about these topics as if they were just discovered. So that was my motivation. That is a little bit about my background. I hope it tells you a little bit of who I am.
00:03:17
Speaker
And also perhaps through the answers you will get to know me better. Thank you, Jesmyn. And I feel that it's actually a very nice journey. I mean, I'm sure you have had a lot of
00:03:32
Speaker
challenges on the way, but you are telling your story constantly. You're advocating for these kind of things based on personal experience. I think that's the best way to actually advocate for a topic.
00:03:53
Speaker
For whatever we are and it seems that you are in your calling i mean you're very good at this you speak like through experience and. And it's like a very very pressing topic not only in finland i would say but in any country right over here we're seeing in the news unfortunately all these you know display displacement of people in general,
00:04:21
Speaker
From countries from homes you know and we have to be more open and receptive for that so i think that you have a very nice calling and passion in here and maybe this is something you're very good at so.
00:04:38
Speaker
I think it has brought also a lot of maybe blessings from that side.
Understanding DEI: Concepts and Actions
00:04:44
Speaker
But can you tell us yes myth also, so our listeners can understand a little bit like what do you mean by day? Like what is diversity, equity, and inclusion? Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Yes. And I'm happy to do it because you were actually saying it right. It's now so often that we are just kind of assuming that everyone knows
00:05:08
Speaker
what they means, and we are they here, they there. And then I think that that in itself is a little bit exclusive, if you will, because we are kind of assuming that either you understand what we are talking about, or you are kind of out, or you are outdated or anything of the sort. But this stands for diversity, and diversity in very simple words means differences, the differences that can appear
00:05:37
Speaker
within human groups. So they can be, for example, experiential, they can be demographic, and then they can also be, for example, then about how we see the world, about how we learn, about many different aspects. So differences altogether. Then equity is about having access for opportunities for everyone, but not just
00:06:05
Speaker
the same opportunity for all, but actually that there are adaptations acknowledging those differences that we were speaking about before, right? So basically it's not just saying like there are the opportunities, they are out there, but that by acknowledging that we all are different, then there may be some either different kind of opportunities or different ways to access them. Then inclusion is about actually
00:06:36
Speaker
taking the actions needed in order to actually leverage that benefit that brings to have diversity. And I want to say this, and I will probably say it time and time again, because people quite often cherish the advantages of being diverse and everyone is like, yeah, let's go for diversity. But they then don't want to do the effort of actually including everyone. And then
00:07:05
Speaker
without inclusion, diversity is not... It's as if it didn't happen. It's as if you cannot take advantage of those benefits. So when inclusion takes place, everyone will have the opportunity to be who they are and then contribute with that uniqueness to their own well-being and to the well-being of the larger group.
00:07:33
Speaker
May it be the society, may it be the family, may it be the group of friends, if you see what I mean. Do you think I made a simple enough explanation? This is super interesting. For me, yes. So it's almost as if they would mean like awareness, action, execution, or awareness, planning, execution, something like that. So. Yes, I think. Yeah, go ahead.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think in that sense, for example, there is this person that speaks about these topics. His name is Arthur Chan. And then he says it actually very well. His quote is actually quite famous, at least for those of us who are in this field. But I think it summarizes it quite well. So Arthur says diversity is a fact.
00:08:32
Speaker
Equity is a choice. Inclusion is an action. And belonging is the outcome. And I think it actually makes it very well because, as I was saying, we all are different. That is going to happen. So that is that fact. Then equity is a choice, as in then it returns to the awareness that you were saying that once you realize that this is something that exists, then you choose to do something in order to create equitable practices.
00:09:03
Speaker
And then we also speak about inclusion, then taking it into that action that you are also mentioning. And then belonging then is the result of these three elements in place. Yeah. I really, really like how you have been defining this. Maybe I go back to what you were saying about diversity, that it means differences.
00:09:28
Speaker
And I love the fact that you pointed out experience and the knowledge and so on. Because when we think of differences, immediately our head goes to cultural or gender. And it's actually, I love this because we all have different experiences. And not only that, it already creates different personalities. It creates different outcomes also and how people react to things, et cetera.
00:09:57
Speaker
Thank you for bringing that also that differences are, it's a wide range of things that don't relate only to culture or gender. And then I also like these that you mentioned belonging. Now, I think that's the core of everything that we're doing. And I even think of day that we all want to belong somewhere as a human being.
00:10:27
Speaker
And I think this is the most important thing that even if you're, and maybe what you're saying here, that even when you recognize that there's differences, if you don't make actions for that person to feel like to belong, to feel part of a team, then the work is not done. It's not only the awareness, but it's also the outcome that eventually we all would feel
00:10:55
Speaker
complete and part of a system as well. I'm using my very simple words in your expertise, but this is very interesting for me. These concepts are actually simpler than we have been trying them to be. So I think it's very good if you can use simple words. That is, first of all, a good sign that these concepts are accessible
00:11:25
Speaker
And I think that perhaps the risk of getting so caught on what is the right terminology is going to prevent us to continue this conversation. And that is not good for anyone. So it's good if we all can have our understanding in our own words. Yeah, exactly.
00:11:56
Speaker
What are your, now I ask you a little bit about this because this diversity, well we see it a lot in social media. We see that we have to accept and include different groups and then we even have this like a cancel culture and so on when someone is a bit
00:12:17
Speaker
maybe not following those standards.
Implementing DEI in Organizations: Strategies and Challenges
00:12:22
Speaker
But we also speak about day within companies. So what are the challenges still? I mean, do you think that companies are still
00:12:36
Speaker
doing a good practice to actually include different backgrounds and to, as you put it, adapt the culture also to those backgrounds. Are companies doing a good job on that? Well, it depends on the company and it depends on also which country. But in general, I think that it can be said that
00:13:05
Speaker
It's not enough what we are doing as of yet in societies in general, but in particular in companies. For starters, of course, there are the very advantages that have been highlighted and Deloitte has studies, McKinsey has studies. I don't think organizations do not have access to actually understanding what are the benefits of having
00:13:35
Speaker
a diverse team for starters and then to have equitable and inclusive practices. But still there is something that is somehow preventing us, right? And then there are some countries in which this has begun a long time ago. And then there are the countries such as Finland, where we have very recently started. So for example, if you think about the UK,
00:14:02
Speaker
the US, they have already been speaking about these topics for so long that they are expected from the organizations that there is at least a policy around these topics. And then there are the countries like in Finland where these topics are more recent. Of course, the advantage of countries like Finland is that then you have everything else that has happened elsewhere in the world.
00:14:31
Speaker
and then you can actually learn from the mistakes. But to the original question as if we were doing fine, I'm afraid we are not doing enough yet because we are sort of just scratching the surface and then we are kind of reacting to the need and to the demand of the talent. But if we were doing it from the core, if we were doing it from
00:14:59
Speaker
from it as being part of the strategy, from it of being part of the core values of the organization, then you would be anticipating those demands, but also you would be addressing them way more efficiently if I am making sense. Do you think I answered your question? Yes, absolutely.
00:15:20
Speaker
Yes, and now I have another question because now you say that we are reacting to demand and we should be building that from the core. So what will you say the core is? How can organizations anticipate that? Do you have any ideas for that? Yeah, I think because I am a business strategist, of course, I can't help but think about strategies in general. So basically,
00:15:47
Speaker
And usually when I speak about diversity, equity and inclusion, I speak about organizations because it's companies, yes, but it's also schools, it's also NGOs and everything anywhere where humans are involved. But you know, strategy is about sustainability, is about remaining, right? It's about the long shot. It's about staying there and staying relevant.
00:16:18
Speaker
So if you were to incorporate diversity, equity, and inclusion both to your strategy, your ways of making your strategy, and to your organizational values, then that is something that will be sort of living within the individuals that are part of that organization, but also within the practices and the structures of the organization.
00:16:47
Speaker
So that is why I think that when I am saying that this has to be in the core, I mean that at the very least diversity, equity and inclusion has to be reflected in the strategy and in the values. Because if it's taken as a site project, as a nice thing to do as a celebration of a month or something, then it is artificial. I'm not saying
00:17:18
Speaker
It's not good. It happens. It's good to raise awareness, but it will not stick because it's not part of the longer shot, if you see what I mean. Yeah. And I guess that we are in that level, as you mentioned, that we have enough studies that highlight the importance of diversity and equity.
00:17:37
Speaker
uh, in general. So we in a way have passed that moment where we raise awareness and we start to actually implement. Um, so you have a very good point there. I'm thinking of what are the strategies that we could follow, you know, as organizations to actually, I mean, how does it look like to have Dana strategy? Uh, and I'm thinking you have more knowledge in this, but I'm thinking that it's, um,
00:18:08
Speaker
could be something that, hey, we want to embrace new ways of thinking. So instead of having this position with this background, can we make a more diverse team where we bring, I don't know, like these abilities or talents or points of view or experiences to handle this project that usually will be handled by these kind of persons. Now we want to see what is the outcome when we put different people together. Maybe that's one way.
00:18:38
Speaker
to do it? Yeah, that is definitely a good way and a very necessary way because you can have other very sophisticated like strategies if you want or you can have a vision, you can have an action plan, you can have anything you want. But then if at the end of the day you are not doing the work of actually having representation in the organization and having
00:19:07
Speaker
more people involved in the different tasks, then your strategy can look very flashy and nice. But it will not happen, because at the end of the day, it needs the big actions and the small actions. And that is actually why when we think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, we always say that this is about the behavioral structures, sorry, the behavioral
00:19:38
Speaker
and then the structural inclusion. So the behavioral is that one within us individuals. And then the structural is about the policies, the practices, the structures in itself that are there in organizations. So it will not happen if one of them is missing.
00:20:06
Speaker
because you can have very good policies, you can have very good guidelines. If individuals are not embracing them, they are not going to happen. And the other way around, if individuals are very motivated, they are pushing, but then the structures don't allow them to move forward. It will not occur. And it will actually cause such a burden in those people that are enthusiastic about these topics.
00:20:34
Speaker
that instead of taking advantage of that motivation for themselves and for the organization, then it will probably lead to a burnout. And that is actually something that happens a lot for people who are advocating for these topics.
00:20:52
Speaker
Absolutely. And now I have a question, and maybe I'm building like a bridge here. But we are speaking a lot about mental health lately as well.
DEI's Impact on Mental Health: The Immigrant Experience
00:21:06
Speaker
This is also, of course, caused by all the things that we have around us, the context like social media and the pressure and being always on. But I also think that the human race, as in history, we always have these movements where
00:21:22
Speaker
We put a lot of emphasis in the individual and i think we are also going through a similar period here in history where the individual is. Self standing and knowledge is praised and you know being like an old self standing man or woman or.
00:21:47
Speaker
you know, whatever you identify with, like just, you know, that I can do this alone. And I think that has caused like a lot of mental health issues as well. And maybe a lack of emotional intelligence overall. So do you think that by recognizing and adopting these strategies in the organization or in life,
00:22:14
Speaker
would help also to tackle those mental health issues that we are having as a society or that would help also raise our emotional intelligence. I mean, what do you think of that and how do these concepts relate to they? Yeah, well, while I am not an expert on these specific topics, this has actually been researched that there is a direct link
00:22:42
Speaker
between diversity, equity, and inclusion, and general well-being, but also mental health. And then, of course, you were also speaking about, is it emotional intelligence? But usually also when we are aware about diversity, equity, and inclusion, our cultural intelligence and our communication skills can possibly improve.
00:23:11
Speaker
which may have a consequence, then, on being more emotionally intelligent, right? As I said, and I insist I am not an expert on this topic, so for those of you who are, do not come chase me, but I can speak from the perspective of where I am working, and this has been recognized to be part of the benefits, actually, and this is part of the impact that it has.
00:23:39
Speaker
If we want to make it in a very relatable example and not to put anyone out there, just already building on what I have already shared, in mind the dismay that it is for someone to already be going through everything that goes when you experience migration. And then on top of that, that your career
00:24:09
Speaker
your knowledge is questioned in a society that praises that. So it impacts your mental health, right? It makes you doubt yourself. It has an impact. Yeah.
00:24:31
Speaker
I agree with that. And you put it very well. Recently, I was also discussing this with immigrants and a group of an event that the city of Helsinki, together with the government of Finland, had put together to encourage entrepreneurship. And we were discussing that already being an immigrant
00:24:57
Speaker
wherever you are gives you those traits that you need to be an entrepreneur and you know you're saying that whenever you're in an immigrant somewhere else you're already going you're going through so many difficulties already like challenges and questions.
00:25:14
Speaker
And I guess in our life, we all do that. If, for example, you're in leadership positions or you're a founder or an entrepreneur, you also go through those challenges. And then when you don't, you're not accepted or understood, then of course that increases the stress, the emotional stress that you feel and might also lead to mental health issues as well.
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that there are two things that I can also pick up from what you are saying. And one of them is that, first of all, you are nowhere to the space. So there are unspoken codes and habits and languages that you may not have access to because you were not part of that inner group before, right? So that already puts you in a position
00:26:15
Speaker
of having to try harder, even if it's not the intention of the group to make it try harder. But still, and again, on a very personal note, I guess when people ask me, what is the hardest about building a career as a foreigner? I think that my way to summarize it is that I feel
00:26:46
Speaker
Like I have to prove time and time again that I am good, not really good, but I am good at what I am really good at. I have to prove myself every time. My credentials are not enough. I have to prove myself every day. So it becomes exhausting at some point, right? And then there is,
00:27:14
Speaker
The other point that you were saying also is that sometimes when we make it, we are also invited to conversations, which is, of course, highly appreciated. And it's important to have this representation. But also giving us this position of being role models is, of course, very flattering. But it also adds some layer of
00:27:43
Speaker
pressure and the stress that you have plenty of stress. You don't need that extra layer, but then you are also hold accountable for your actions also in your private life. Like you are expected to be flawless. So of course there are the consequences that have to do with your wellbeing, with your stress, with your very own mental health.
00:28:10
Speaker
because you understand that you are held to different standards. It may not be intentional, but nonetheless. So that is something that I also think it's important that we acknowledge because it's very real.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess that going back to the beginning when you say that differences also depend on the experiences that one is having or that is exposed to when you are a child, I go back to that to generalize because I guess that this feeling that you're experiencing that and you put it in a very nice way like in very nice words that the group is not putting that role in you.
00:28:52
Speaker
But when you come to a new group you feel that i have to push harder to belong to that group so whatever the group is could be sports could be. Management team in an organization could be friends or just a group that you want to try out you know because as adults. We are less likely to try new hobbies usually kids do that but i guess that as an adult whenever we want to try anything.
00:29:23
Speaker
we have those feelings.
00:29:25
Speaker
OK, I don't master this. I don't belong here. How can I belong, actually? And I guess it takes a lot of effort, not only to hope, but whatever we want to do in life, especially as an adult, to go and try the new thing and then to feel that I belong here. And if we are all experiencing that, I guess we can all understand how important the inclusion part is,
00:29:54
Speaker
When there's someone coming, you're like, how can we adapt this group? You know, to embrace this new person, make them feel welcome, but not only welcome, but to our level, to the same level that we are, because this person is bringing us something new. We could apply this also to unions or marriages, you know, like whatever it is, like how is this person bringing extra to me as well?
00:30:23
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that you are actually saying it very well. And I think that you're also putting it in a positive note without it being like, you know, this romanticized picture of our differences are going to make us bigger. It takes an effort. I think that that's also quite often that people think that we have a diverse team. Now we can be very proud. But what are you actually
00:30:51
Speaker
doing so that everyone can feel that they belong to that group, right? If you are actually not taking care of that intentionally, the odds are that there are going to be more frictions than joy, if you will, or those happy moments. Just because we are only humans and we tend to react
00:31:19
Speaker
in the way we are taught, right? But also, the way you were saying that is that you have to be conscious that you are bringing something to the table. And then the others have to be aware that you are bringing something to the table so that you are open. So in a very simple metaphor, this is a potluck, right? Everyone is bringing their dish. And then, of course, it's your choice if you don't want to try someone's dish, but you are missing out.
00:31:49
Speaker
If by someone bringing their dish and it being untouched, it has a consequence. Of course, you cannot say that, ah, but everyone is as happy. Of course, if you put the effort in bringing that something to the potluck, and then everyone else is deciding not to taste it, it has a consequence. And of course, it has an impact in your mental well-being, no matter how healthy you are. We are only humans.
00:32:19
Speaker
and we are grownups or like we are taller versions of our inner child and no one likes rejection. Absolutely and I'm remembering a location where I actually brought food somewhere and yeah people ate it not too much as other dishes but I think that it was like a
00:32:42
Speaker
improve a point that maybe cooking is not my strength. Or maybe try and new food is not their strength. But yes, I see what you're saying because this kind of things make you question your ability to cook, for example, right? It's not only about that one occasion. It makes you question one of your skills. But imagine if several of your skills are being questioned, then
00:33:13
Speaker
It has a toll. We can't deny it. Yes, absolutely. And that's very well put, actually. Yes.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I wanted to ask you, now we have been speaking about day in organizations and in general in life, but now we come back to the focus of cities.
Creating Inclusive Cities: Best Practices and Adaptability
00:33:59
Speaker
This is a very interesting topic for us and for Chaos. We started building Chaos based on that idea that people are missing out of the picture. The attention to the demand that drives cities is not enough.
00:34:19
Speaker
So we need to listen to people, to citizens, tourists, or whomever uses the city to make better cities and more livable for them. So do you have any ideas like on what would be the best practices to bring new people into the city and accept all that, you know, that anyone can use the city with their own needs as well? Do you have any ideas from there?
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think I have to return to my basic premise, which was that we want to think about cities as the largest possibility of actually thinking of a place where humans are interacting, right? And when we think about how to bring diversity to cities, we must first acknowledge that diversity means so many things.
00:35:17
Speaker
So it's not only about gender, age, race, language. It has to also do with beliefs. It has to do with value settings. It has to do with body ability, with mental ability too, but also about just how we experience the world, right? In general, like as a summary.
00:35:42
Speaker
If we think that we want to think about diversity because we want to then simulate how we experience the world, cities then are those micro pieces that are making up for the world, right? So how to attract diversity is by creating cities and spaces that are safe for all, not for a bunch of people.
00:36:09
Speaker
not for the typical group of people, but for all. And that is, of course, the challenge, that we have to create those environments where everyone will feel welcome. And when there is a possibility for adaptation, because there are also the evolving needs, of course, that we cannot perhaps anticipate, but that when they emerge, that we are going to be in the possibility to react to them.
00:36:39
Speaker
So it's not only about having people from different generations. It's not only about having people from different nationalities, from different cultural backgrounds. It's about also creating them the services that are going to cater for them. And without trying to get political here, I think that a lot of people are talking about attracting, for example,
00:37:09
Speaker
highly qualified immigrants. And of course, people cannot see me, but I changed tone of voice with highly qualified, because what is even that? But let's say that they mean workforce to Finland, for example. But OK, you attract them. Now what? What are you going to do? So they are included, not only integrated in the society. So I think that sometimes we are missing the mark.
00:37:39
Speaker
as cities is that we are saying, fine, we want more diversity. And then you focus on integrating them, not on including them. So integration means you open the door, you let them in, but then they stay by the door. Do you see what I mean? But if they were inclusive, then they could feel like
00:38:07
Speaker
They may take a while, like they may take a little moment by the door, but then they will be free to move around the room. That would be inclusion. And that I think is where we are missing the mark. We have the integration courses. We have the integration activities. We do not have inclusion activities. We are not genuinely welcoming people. We are not genuinely inviting people to make their lives here.
00:38:36
Speaker
to return to the original question, how to attract more diversity, make it inclusive, make it accessible so that people want to come. Because we have the choice to also go some places. Well, some of us have the choice to go some other places. And we could choose somewhere else, right? Somewhere else where we feel that we belong.
00:38:59
Speaker
This is so interesting topic of now even like putting here myself like in the chair. I love this that you say it's a very nice way of expressing it like integration and inclusion. Like integration is you stay by the door and inclusion is you come in. I guess that we all have had this feeling when we are invited to a home where we feel we don't belong.
00:39:25
Speaker
And then you don't want to even mess it up. You're like, oh, yeah, thank you. You don't sit. You stand. And you don't sit unless you're told to. So you don't feel at home. But when someone feels at home, you go and open the fridge. You go and pull a plate. And that's a lovely feeling as well, because then you know I'm with company where I feel at home.
00:39:51
Speaker
I guess that's a very nice way to put it, like how we all should feel in cities. If I go to a new city, I want to feel that I'm in my home, that I can go to a park, that I belong here, that I can go and vote, that I understand even the language that the debates, political debates are going on in,
00:40:13
Speaker
Or if i have like a physical disability i have special needs physically then that i can interact with the public spaces. In a good way so that anything that i want to do would be also you know accommodated to me.
00:40:31
Speaker
And I love this how all the guests connect to these topics. And now you mentioned also here, Yesmith, that you said cities are microspaces that make up the world, which I think it's a nice definition. And then you said that everybody needs to feel welcome. And the important here is that we can react. So whenever someone comes new, we react and we adapt.
00:41:00
Speaker
So for me, what you're saying is like cities needs to be resilient. So they don't need to be perfect. They need to be resilient. Yes. And I think that you, you're making the point very well, of course. Um, yeah, I think that we think of cities as, as things that are kind of untouchable somehow, like we cannot influence it. They are the bigger thing, but no, uh,
00:41:28
Speaker
We are living in them. And because we are living and we are evolving, the cities are too, right? And then, of course, we are imperfect, again, as humans. So our cities, they are only an emulation of who we are, right? And then the resilience, what you're mentioning here is that, of course, when we kick off something, we believe it's in its best possible shape.
00:41:55
Speaker
That's what we believe, right? That's what we hope for. It may not be so. And that's perfectly fine. But then that you have not only the ability, but also the will to adapt, that is what is going to make for the difference. Because maybe you didn't think of a ramp. Maybe you didn't think of enough elevators. But OK, but will you anyways do it once you realize you have the need? That is what matters. And I think that
00:42:26
Speaker
Also finding alternative solutions is what matters. It's not only about putting patches everywhere, but actually thinking like, oh, we overlook the need of ramps here. What else are we overlooking? That you are actually, when something hits you, that it's not only touching that, but actually like, oh, this makes me think that maybe I also overlooked something else, right? And then let me get just to it. Exactly.
00:42:55
Speaker
And you give you permission also to accept that we didn't plan well, which at the same time, we become more merciful as planners, for example, or developers. I'm now thinking of the built environment. We become merciful with our decisions, with ourselves. But also, it allows us to accept that we can do better.
00:43:24
Speaker
One of our guests in a previous episode said that perfection doesn't get you to orbit. So you always have to just go and do the best you can, you know, and then exactly as you're putting it, when you realize that, say, huh, I might have missed this as well. And then you become, you know, more inclusive and like forming these adaptations so that everybody feels at home as well.
00:43:55
Speaker
Yes, and I think that that is also an acknowledgement. I think, like, of course you have to allow yourself to understand that you cannot have, that you cannot possibly have
Personal Accountability in DEI: Continuous Learning and Humility
00:44:06
Speaker
all the answers. You shouldn't aim for that either. That would be, I would be very scared at least if someone expected me to have every answer. But I think it's also important that we remain humble, that we remain understanding as of what is our scope, what is
00:44:24
Speaker
How far can we take ourselves alone, right? And then that is why you need the others. I can't possibly see the struggles of someone else, for example, and I can't possibly see the privileges of someone else either. Not because I am oblivious to humankind, just because as a human, I look for first and foremost at myself and then
00:44:51
Speaker
everything else comes of course I very consciously make the effort of seeing other points of view but even when you make that effort you can't possibly see what you can't see so that's why others bring it to your face and they show it to you and you're like ah this I missed thank you and you have to remain humble there isn't anything wrong with not knowing everything I don't know why we are glorifying gurus and and like people who
00:45:20
Speaker
who think they have it all figured out. That is not possible. We can't possibly know everything. We can be very good at what we do. We can be masters of our craft. And we are still missing something, which is perfect, because then we have a reason to continue, right? Otherwise, if you know it, what's the point? Yeah.
00:45:41
Speaker
And I guess that's life. And that's the core of day. If I go back to that, because when we accept that we don't know everything and that someone else is going to bring more knowledge or compassion or empathy, whatever it is, we also understand that white day is important because I don't have all the tools in life. And this person will add something that I don't have.
00:46:17
Speaker
Maybe I just go back to very key points that you have mentioned, Desmond, in here. So you mentioned that day, diversity, equity, inclusion. Diversity means differences, like experiences, and how you grew up, and so on, demographic.
00:46:39
Speaker
equity means access or adapting in a way and then inclusion is like taking the actions needed so all these things maybe now i'm going through a test like did i understand right
00:47:01
Speaker
Then you mentioned also that days also like a feeling of belonging at the end of today, that this was said also by someone else. And there's a lot of studies and benefits for an organization. What else? Yeah, we also mentioned two very important things here.
00:47:29
Speaker
that there's a very big difference between integration and inclusion where integration, you stand in the door and inclusion, you come in and interact with the environment. Um, and that in order to start like adopting day, uh, we need to build these in our strategies as well. So not only just speak about this and have awareness, but also, you know, implemented and executed.
00:47:59
Speaker
And then you have this very nice thing that cities are microspaces that make up the world and that cities could be more resilient in adapting new persons and diversity and inclusion and so on. Did I miss something that you want to steal, like tell our listeners here? No, I think you're making a very good summary. The only thing that I would
00:48:28
Speaker
encourage people is that we don't think about diversity, equity and inclusion as this kind of high level kind of things that we have in our mind, that this belongs to all of us. Of course, some of us may have more information or whatnot, or we may know explicitly how to implement it, or we may have a good idea of what has worked in the past, but these topics belong to all of us.
00:48:57
Speaker
and all of our actions, no matter how small or big, they have an impact on the environment. And this is both a privilege and a right, but it also makes us accountable. We all are responsible for creating more inclusive environments. So not because you are not a politician, not because you are not a CEO, not because you are not a consultant, you are off the hook.
00:49:28
Speaker
No, all of us, we are accountable for making it happen. And I think that that is the importance here, that our behaviors and our ways of understanding the world have to adapt in order to have the bigger impact. And last but not least is also, yes, there is this accountability. And that shouldn't be scary, you know, because now we are like,
00:49:56
Speaker
Oh, okay, so now I am accountable for being more inclusive. What if I don't know? You don't have to be perfect. You have to want to do it. And then you will learn. And accountability shouldn't be so scary for any of us. It means that we have power of influence and that should always be celebrated. Or maybe I'm just, yeah, I love power of influence. And I was this last weekend in an anti-racism forum.
00:50:26
Speaker
And I realized it was mostly young people. And I just realized like, oh, I don't have a lot of strength anymore. Or that's what my first feeling was. I think I fight relentlessly. And then I saw the youth. And I was thinking like, is it that I am getting weaker? Or is it that they are getting stronger?
00:50:50
Speaker
I think they are getting stronger. This serves me well for both purposes, to make myself feel better about myself. But also because it makes me... I'm young. Yes. But also because it makes me feel hopeful. They have it. They are accountable for it. And I'm not saying it is a responsibility. But what they are doing, they understand it has an impact. And I was so...
00:51:15
Speaker
Motivated. I was like, yeah, I wish I had been like that when I was their age. I was really happy actually. Yeah, Jasmina, you have a very good point here. I think a lot of people are scared of being accountable. I've noticed that as adults, even the smartest and brightest and most eloquent adults,
00:51:41
Speaker
are still very afraid of accountability. So I love how you put it here. It's like, actually, it's a power of influence. When you become accountable, you have influence to change things. So thank you for that as well. I think this is also very needed. We should speak about that more also. Now I'm going to end with some fast questions
00:52:09
Speaker
that you have to answer quite quickly. So don't think about the answer. Just like say whatever comes to your heart. Okay, let's try that. So, all right, ready? Yes. Good. So where's your dream place to leave?
00:52:29
Speaker
Ah, that's a good question. I think that I usually say it's Rio, Rio de Janeiro. And I think that it is because it has everything as a city actually. It has the sea, it has the mountains, it has many different people. So when you are there, no matter how you look, you could be Carioca. And I think that that's why that is the only city in the world where I have lived, where I feel
00:52:57
Speaker
but no one is looking at me twice. Not even in Mexico, so that is why. Nice. Very nice. All right. Public transportation or own car? Well, public transportation. I'm very bad at parking. Would you rather live in the future or in the past?
00:53:22
Speaker
in the present. I know I don't have the choice. In the future, I am actually hoping that what we are doing now is going to take us to a better place. Okay. Summer or winter? Summer. Big time. Okay. What motivates you the most? My children, I know that that sounds very corny, but
00:53:49
Speaker
It motivates me exactly because I know that whatever I am doing, they are observing. So it motivates me to want to be better. I'm not saying I'm better, but I want to, at least. So that motivates me. And like children in general, youth. Morning or evening? Evening, like this time of the day, not my time. Yeah, so this was not a good time. Well, I saw you on me.
00:54:19
Speaker
What advice would you give to your younger self? Oh, that's actually a question that I have had so many times. I never did I think about the answer for myself. I think I will probably go for the answer that everyone gives, but I think I will just tell her, like, trust the process. Everything will be fine. And also, something that I would tell my younger self is that
00:54:49
Speaker
Don't justify the bad things that are happening. Not everything happens for a reason. I think that everyone says everything happens for a reason, but I actually don't think everything should happen so that you can become who you are. But I would still tell younger Jasmine that trust the process and trust yourself. I think it took me a while to trust myself, and I wish I had done it earlier.
00:55:18
Speaker
All right. Nice. Nice advice. And then finally pasta or pizza. Pasta actually. Yeah. At least it feels fancier. But pasta is also very versatile. But I'll go pasta. Yeah. All right. We are now approaching to the end. And thank you, Jasmine, for this. I think this day topic is not talked enough. So thank you for being here as well.
00:55:47
Speaker
And, uh, I think I hope that we also take these like into creating better cities, like this topic, more livable cities, more livable spaces. And I would end, uh, the podcast also with the last question that we ask all of our guests. So if there were no limits, what kind of technological innovation would you invent to make your life easier in the city?
00:56:14
Speaker
I would love to reduce commuting time. Even in this city where commuting is quite good, I realized actually perhaps after the pandemic that I do spend a lot of time commuting. So if I could tele-transport myself, I would very much love that. And it would allow me to be more time in the places where I have to be and in the places where I want to be. So I know that sounds very like the Jetsons kind of thing, but that's my thing.
00:56:44
Speaker
Believe it or not, but commuting has been one of the most frequent answers. So something to think about there. Yeah, and very related to cities, so that's good. All right, so thank you very much. Thank you, Jasmyth, and thank you, listeners, for sticking up with our podcasts and cities overall. And I hope to see you or hear you soon. Yes, have a lovely week. Thank you, Natalia. Goodbye.