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Sustainable Skylines
64 Plays10 months ago
What is the impact of architectural choices on our daily experiences? What is the connection between architecture, culture, and sustainability? In this episode, Natalia and Paavo Foley unravel the transformative power of architecture, the role of cities in shaping a sustainable future, and the importance of community engagement.
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Transcript
Introduction of Baba Foley and Focus on Sustainability
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Unraveling Cities. I'm Natalia, co-founder and CEO at Chaos. And I'm really, really happy about our next guest. So my guest today works in the architecture industry. And he's very familiar with all the things that are related to sustainability.
00:00:47
Speaker
And he's currently the event and communications coordinator at ArcInfo Finland, the information center for Finnish architecture that fosters interest in the Finnish architecture and increases appreciation for the build environment. So welcome, Baba Foley, like very nice to have you. Thank you, Natalia. I'm happy to be here. I'd be happy to be having this conversation with you. Yeah.
00:01:15
Speaker
And we met just like, well, a little while ago, maybe this year, but in spring maybe. And I started to actually learn a lot about like what you're doing and our info and so on. Of course, this is some.
00:01:33
Speaker
newspaper magazine that architects follow, so I was familiar with that, but then I got very interested in everything that you're doing. I know that you're involved in a lot of topics related to local policies,
00:01:50
Speaker
And now we met through this event that was organizing Tampere about this new architectural program.
Baba's Background and Influences
00:02:00
Speaker
So could you tell a little bit about your background and how you ended up there, you know, so to all of our listeners as well? Certainly. So basically, I'm going to start
00:02:14
Speaker
by talking about how I went to university, what I studied, and then how I ended up in this sort of architecture and AEC industry through a way that I kind of didn't realize was even possible when I started studying. So I graduated this past summer, actually. I got my master's degree in political science. Thank you. Thank you. And so when I started studying, you know,
00:02:38
Speaker
I was always interested in history and social sciences and social stuff like that when I was in high school and middle school. And I saw this. I was like, hey, this looks interesting. So I went there and this was in 2016 when I started studying. And so then a few years after that, I think right as I got my bachelor's degree, I had my first internship, which was at the city of Turco. That's where I studied.
00:03:06
Speaker
Um, in a project called, uh, cool, which was, uh, the six, six largest cities in Finland who were kind of, they worked together to provide a platform for companies and startups to test different solutions and products that would make life in the city more. You know, sustainable or somehow better. Um, and, and then they could get feedback from, you know, real users about their product or their service or their solution and then make it better.
00:03:35
Speaker
And this internship there kind of made me realize how much cities can really affect the quality of life for their inhabitants, as well as combat issues such as climate change and social inequality and things like that. So that was kind of my first experience in this whole world of cities and architecture and sustainability, and it was really an eye-opening moment in that sense.
Learning from KiraHub and Urban Challenges
00:03:59
Speaker
And then the next summer,
00:04:01
Speaker
I ended up at Kirahab, which I'm sure you are familiar with. And I think one former Kirahab employee, Sami Lankanam, it was a guest on your show. Yes, now you're revealing. I saw it on LinkedIn. He was talking about it. That's the only way I can know about it. It was super interesting as well. Yeah, I'm sure I can't wait to listen to the episode. So Sami is a friend of mine, actually, who I know just from Turku.
00:04:31
Speaker
through just other ways. And he called me and said, hey, do you need an internship or a job for the summer? And I was like, absolutely. And so I was at Kira Hub for four or five months, a few years ago. And that was sort of my first kind of foray into the world of AEC and a more like a technical side of this. Like the Kursaigai internship was more of a, it helped me realize the potential that cities have
00:04:55
Speaker
Uh, and then Keira Hub and the companies and startups and people I met there kind of helped me learn about the more technical aspects of, of how all that works and how startups and companies actually like tackle these issues and in all the different events that they had, like the WDB and things like those really kind of opened my eyes to a, to a kind of different side of that whole world. Um, and so then last spring, spring of 2022.
Role at ArcInfo Finland and Architectural Policy
00:05:20
Speaker
When I was writing my master's thesis, I was looking for jobs at the same time, and I came across a job advertisement for my current job at ArcInfo, and they were looking for someone to help out with communications and events regarding the newly published or actually finalized. I don't think it was officially published even at the time, but the new architectural policy program
00:05:40
Speaker
And I looked at it, and I was like, wow, this seems something that I'd be perfect for. And I applied, and next thing I knew, I was working there and moving to Helsinki. I love the confidence. I looked at it, and I was like, I check all these boxes. Like, this seems very interesting. And again, a different side of this whole world, you know, more focused on the architecture, while Kiroha was more kind of technical. And I'd see all these, you know, different things there. But then, Arkinfo was more like architecture-centered.
00:06:10
Speaker
And I guess that brings me to Arkinva and all about what they do. So as you said, Arkinva is the information center for Finnish architecture. And I'd say Arkinva's mission can be divided into three categories, increasing the appreciation of Finnish architecture and cultural heritage domestically,
00:06:31
Speaker
promoting Finnish architecture globally and increasing the social impact of architecture. And my job revolves around that third one, which is the Architectural Policy Program, and guides cities into making better choices for their citizens and the societies within through architecture and the built environment. So that's what Arkinfo does. We do a lot of things, but mine is mostly in that social advocacy side of Arkinfo.
00:06:58
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds super interesting. You're like becoming an architect in Disguised. Kind of, yeah. It's been a very interesting school for me because obviously I didn't go to school for architecture or engineering. I've always been interested in that and I've always been interested in societies and how technology and societies kind of intertwine. Maybe because I was born in a time when technology kind of really started affecting our lives more and more.
00:07:27
Speaker
But everything I've been doing there, I keep learning more and more about architecture and all these different internships and jobs that I've had have taught me so much of this world that I keep learning more and more. And it's all very interesting stuff.
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, I'm an architect myself, so what could I say in there? But, uh, I love these, how you put it like, um, you said something really interesting and I'm always like catching these phrases, you know, because, um, I'm writing a book.
00:07:58
Speaker
You are, wow. Congratulations. No, that was a joke. While listening to all the guests, they always have this phrase that hits. Well, right now, you said this is the potential of cities.
00:08:16
Speaker
And I feel there's a lot of things to ask from there. So like, what do you mean the potential in what we actually had, um, before you answer like this, uh, blog, uh, in our website some time ago, which was just speaking about cities.
Potential of Cities and Urban Design Impact
00:08:33
Speaker
You know, what is a city, uh, uh, in general and what does it allow you to do? So can you like open that a little bit your thought on that?
00:08:46
Speaker
Sure. So cities obviously have, by definition, a lot of people in them. And I think that's where the city's kind of power really is. Is there so many people there and so many different possibilities? And it offers, I think since the beginning of time almost, people come together and share ideas and share thoughts. And I think through that, we evolve as a society.
00:09:14
Speaker
And I think cities are the places where that happens. So I think cities, the potential really lies in the people who are in the city. And obviously the things that I work with in my job is how much the city affects these people. I think it might be sort of a symbiosis between the people and the city and how they can kind of help each other. And I think obviously cities have a lot of potential
00:09:44
Speaker
just because of the sheer amount of people and stuff that goes on in them. And I think they're the key to make our future more sustainable. And it happens through having universities, having companies to think about these things, and the cities trying to make life more livable and vibrant and better for their citizens. And I think it happens
00:10:09
Speaker
through trial and error sometimes, but it keeps going into, I think, a better direction. And through technological advancements and things, I think the real keys to making life better, not just for us, but for future generations, too, are in cities. So I think they have a great deal of potential. And that isn't to say that rural areas don't have any potential. They obviously do. But I think that advancement happens in the cities. And that's where I think their potential really lies.
00:10:39
Speaker
Yeah. And I think you put it really well. Like you, you pointed out like, well, what, at least I took three points from here. It's like one cities have so many people. So that's one, uh, compared to rural like zones and the fact that you have like so much people, so many of them, like, um,
00:11:00
Speaker
It creates a movement so it's easier or more scalable in those terms. Then you said that and then the real potential lies on the lives of people. So then the second one is you're going more local more concrete more like individual.
00:11:18
Speaker
And then the third, you said that there's a lot that the cities affect to people, the effect that they have on people. And I like this part. Yesterday I was pitching and I was saying that we don't have solutions that help us understand yet, like the effects or what are the factors that affect the demand.
00:11:43
Speaker
uh, and the demand being people, uh, and I think you're like touching a very sensitive topic there because a lot of things affect affect people. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't think people even really realize it. And, and, and kind of like, I was talking about my first internship at the city of Torquo. Um, it kind of helped me realize it for the first time as well, even though, you know, I've always been, been interested in, in, in how the society works and things like that. But it kind of really opened my eyes to like,
00:12:13
Speaker
these buildings and these street signs and these information pylons and everything that is around us, it affects us a lot. More than we realize or more than people realize, a lot of people I assume don't really think about these things very often, but they have such a huge effect on us and I don't think people even realize how much of an effect it has on us.
00:12:36
Speaker
I completely agree. And there's a lot of discussion, for example, when it comes to policy, when we are comparing that
00:12:48
Speaker
Not everyone in the world, uh, is born with the same opportunities because just, you know, the neighborhood that you are going to school to already affects like what, what, like the possibilities that you can buy statistics. I'm strictly referring by statistics, you know, here, uh, like what are you going to become?
00:13:13
Speaker
when you're older and then i have to clarify that i don't believe in that i believe that everybody has a potential to become whatever they want so but i think you know all of these effects a lot so so so maybe then i ask you these questions so.
00:13:32
Speaker
Now that we are discussing about all the effects and so on, the architecture policy is playing an important role in shaping all that, in shaping the city and shaping people's lives as well. Absolutely.
00:13:48
Speaker
It is like kind of like a plan of like this is how you know the the type typology of architecture is gonna be or the design the buildings that construction etc but can you open more about this in. What is the importance of architecture policy and the impact that it has on the development the identity the livability of cities can you open that a little bit more from your perspective.
Architectural Policy and City Identity
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think something you just said before that question about, you know, where you kind of live really affects your life. And I think that's absolutely true. And, you know, there is a lot of areas globally where there is sort of, you know, there's a lot of inequality. And one of the things that the architectural policy program talks about is the sort of social sustainability of it as well, where when new
00:14:44
Speaker
areas in a city or new buildings are being made, they should think about the social sustainability as well, or if there's some sort of social inequality in that area, how does that building help combat that issue?
00:14:57
Speaker
But about the relationship between architectural policy program and development and identity of a city. So the architectural policy program, as you said there, doesn't make new laws or rules about architecture or materials. It doesn't say, OK, buildings have to look this way now, or they have to be built with this material. But what it does is it makes these guidelines about how the future of the built environment can be more sustainable.
00:15:25
Speaker
And not just you know ecologically or financially sustainable but socially and aesthetically sustainable too for example.
00:15:35
Speaker
I think a city's identity plays a big role in the development of an architectural policy program. So, to clarify, in Finland, there's the National Architectural Policy Program, which is kind of what I work with, and then cities or municipalities or even provinces can make their own architectural policy program, and that's something that we'd like to see more of, is cities making their own ones. And as you might recall at Apollibaiva a couple of months ago,
00:16:02
Speaker
Hannah Mondonen from the city of Tambora was showcasing the brand new architectural policy program of Tambora. And one thing that really stood out to me from her presentation was how much the identity of Tambora played a part in developing the new program and how they wanted to kind of use that in the development process. So it kind of ties into the identity and the development of a city quite a lot in some cases.
00:16:26
Speaker
And some others, I think it might just be in the background as a framework to kind of develop ideas in and might not tie into the actual program as much. But I think it works better if the city really kind of realizes its kind of identity and how it can use that, uh, beneficially. One thing, one example that comes to mind, uh, from Denmark actually is a town called Velle, V-E-J-L-E, um, which is a small town, but it's kind of put itself on the map through very interesting architecture. And this becomes sort of this, um,
00:16:55
Speaker
you know, a destination kind of for architecture fans to go and see it. And I think that's something that, you know, smaller towns especially could kind of look into. And maybe there's some untapped potential there for a lot of places where they could kind of make themselves much more, I don't know if attractive is the right word, but in some sense, you know, more attractive, I guess, for, you know, people living in that area or for people visiting.
00:17:25
Speaker
through architecture. It plays such a big role in everything we do. And that's the kind of thing that the architectural policy program wants to kind of help people realize is how much architecture affects everything that we do.
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah, and I think you're putting it right in a very nice way. I was commuting from the airport back to the city yesterday and I saw in Sweden that there was some
00:17:57
Speaker
Well when you're driving and you have these very big farms and these smaller towns as well and one town was advertising somehow if i remember correctly like a,
00:18:11
Speaker
I don't remember now the name of the town, but it was saying something like, uh, where the old meet the new. So come and see all the things that we are doing and learn about our history. It was something like that. And I think that's like, what do you mean also, uh, like in local identity as well? Absolutely. Absolutely. That that's exactly what it is. And
00:18:37
Speaker
And you see a lot of those even driving around in Finland, especially when you kind of go more into rural areas is you see these different sort of these municipalities are kind of advertising themselves like move to this place or this place. And then they have maybe they have like some sort of illustration of the area or what it's known for, you know, agriculture or something. But they can, you know, use those things to
00:19:01
Speaker
to potentially make people move there. I think one thing that we've seen in the past few years through the pandemic is even in Finland, people are moving within inside the country a lot because it's helped us realize that you don't have to live in the center of Helsinki, but you can still have a job that's based in Helsinki. You can just commute there every once in a while, but you can live somewhere else. And I think especially smaller municipalities and towns should
00:19:31
Speaker
you know, realize that and use it much more to their benefit. And some do for sure. I'm, I'm, I'm certain that some do. Yeah. And I think it, it usually happens because, uh, at least like when, when we have a city that has, um, started to maybe change its name to either, uh, well, a growing city or capital or whatever, then we have these adjacent little towns that start aggregating to that. And then it becomes the suburbs of the city. Exactly.
00:20:01
Speaker
it's very hard to know like where is the line you know it starts to blur because now everybody it's becoming a metropolis or depending the size of course but then i think uh at least in Finland when we have these cases like Helsinki and Tampere and then we have Haman in the middle and you're uh kind of creating a force in there like everybody's just
00:20:23
Speaker
Understanding the role that they play in that, you know, commuting. So what role does Helsinki play? And then you start defining your architecture program or guidelines like that. Yeah.
00:20:49
Speaker
In your opinion, or what have you seen, what are the key elements that we have to have in these guidelines to guide our cities to be more sustainable? What are the things that we definitely should have there? Yeah, that's a good question. A few different things come to mind. I'd say the first thing, and we've touched on this a little bit already, is that these cities or towns have to realize the strengths and weaknesses that they have.
00:21:18
Speaker
the respective towns that have their own strengths and weaknesses, what do they need to improve on?
Community Engagement in City Planning
00:21:25
Speaker
One thing that I see as someone who's still fairly young and was in university recently is I think a lot of smaller places are losing their young population, which in one sense makes sense because universities are located in big towns. But for example, how can they help keep people in their smaller towns and
00:21:46
Speaker
and not have the risk of having a diminishing population until one day, the place doesn't really even exist anymore. So they have to realize those weaknesses, but they also have to realize what they have that other places can offer. It can be affordable living, more space, better schools, better infrastructure, whatever it may be, I think they need to realize what those strengths and weaknesses are and tap into them and use that
00:22:13
Speaker
to help develop a plan to make it more sustainable. The next thing that comes to mind, and I think this is a very important one, is speaking with local residents and asking what people want to see in their communities. One thing that we've been doing at Arkinfo is we've had this series of events around Finland. One was actually in Hamanlinna. We've had some in Kuaapia and in Kowala, Kotka. We have one coming up in Porri in January.
00:22:43
Speaker
Different places and and we have these events where where people who are on behalf of the city are there so city officials local business owners and just just citizens people basically off the street and we want to create this forum where where people can kind of
00:23:00
Speaker
come in and give their opinions and just have a conversation about the identity of the city and how architecture and the built environment kind of builds into that and help, in one hand, people understand the role of architecture as we've been speaking here, how much it affects people. And on the other hand, help these city officials kind of realize what the local people want or how do they feel about a certain thing. And in many instances, these city officials have been very thankful for the events
00:23:27
Speaker
And they've got new ideas and points of view that they hadn't thought about. And that's what they've told us. And also the local residents feel like their opinions are heard. I feel like in a lot of cases when it comes to politics in general or city planning, I think a lot of people feel like the decisions are being made behind closed doors at City Hall or something. And they feel like they don't have any effect on what happens. But I feel like through these events and hopefully
00:23:55
Speaker
cities and towns will have more of these, you know, just organized on their own, where people can come together and have open discussions about it. And one thing that comes to mind from that is there's recently, it started in housing in Sanomat, and then I've seen a similar thing in Turun Sanomat.
00:24:13
Speaker
and in a newspaper in Tambora about people can vote about the prettiest or the ugliest street in their city. And they've been very popular, at least the one in housing in San Juan, who created a lot of discussion. So what that shows me is that people actually have a lot of opinions on where they live, even though they might not realize how much architecture affects them. They definitely can point at buildings and say that's uglier, that's pretty. Absolutely, yeah.
Sustainability in Architecture
00:24:39
Speaker
So I think a huge thing is speaking with the local people, and that also reminds me of the project that you guys did at CHAOS with the municipality of Sipaw. I've used that as an example multiple times where you can probably explain better than I can, but where you had local residents kind of vote on how to use the funds in improving a local park.
00:25:02
Speaker
But I think that sort of a platform is a very good thing and something that these cities and municipalities should use more. And then the third thing that comes to mind is realizing that sustainability isn't just about money or the environment. Like I said earlier, the New Architectural Policy Program talks about sustainability
00:25:24
Speaker
from many different points of view, such as social and aesthetical and cultural sustainability. In addition to the usual, we think of sustainability, we think about money or the environment, which obviously are also important parts of that. But what that kind of means is that when building new buildings or areas, we should consider what purpose they're going to serve for their lifespan. Can they be transformed to serve a different purpose?
00:25:51
Speaker
such as an apartment building transformed into offices or vice versa. I feel like that's something that's fairly common these days. That's funny that you say fairly common. We are still in the transition, but it's good that it's now in our heads that that's common. Exactly. That it's becoming the new normal. Exactly. One thing I was just writing an article about is
00:26:15
Speaker
I can remember the exact number, but the amount of emissions that comes from building new buildings is insane, like just the amount of total emissions globally. It's ridiculous how much that is. So if we could help utilize older buildings and transform them into something new, I think that would be a huge key in tackling a lot of these issues related to climate change that we have globally.
00:26:43
Speaker
But also another thing still about these different points of view to sustainability. When building new buildings, I think they should think about the people who are going to be using that building. What do they need? Are those needs being met? What is the area where it's being built? How does it serve that community in that area?
00:27:07
Speaker
And lastly, you know, while we can't really predict what kind of architecture is going to be in, you know, in 20 or 30 years, I think buildings can still, you know, we can make an effort to make buildings look timeless. And, you know, one thing that you see a lot is there's like new apartment buildings being built now that kind of resemble that sort of classical architecture of the 20s and 30s, even right here in Helsinki. And those, you know, look very classy and timeless in a sense.
00:27:35
Speaker
And like I said, we don't know what's going to look cool or interesting in 50 years, but we can definitely kind of try and make an effort to make buildings last longer than they do now, at least in a lot of cases. So there's a few different things. Realizing the strengths and weaknesses that cities might have, talking with local residents and realizing all the different ways that sustainability can be kind of utilized, not just money or the planet, but other ways as well.
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah, I like this. And there's so many points to pick from here. Maybe I start with this last point that is you said that this timeless, I think you gave a very good definition because okay, what is timeless, you know, like you go to Rome and you see these like, holy salmon, we're not feeling like that anymore. But come on, like you want to preserve that. Absolutely.
00:28:28
Speaker
And then you come like, I mean, I guess that's the magic of architecture. You go anywhere in the world and you see all these buildings with different styles and you go to China and you see how the beams are connected and you want to preserve that as well. So I guess this timeless is like hard to define. Absolutely it is.
00:28:54
Speaker
But i like what you mean or men with this last longer i think that's a good definition because if we think like that we're not thinking of a span of twenty years thirty years fifty years maybe we're speaking about hundred years or more.
00:29:13
Speaker
you know, when different generations are building an attachment to the building in a way. And of course that is also adding character to the building, because let's face it, like a lot of times in history, history has been living very beautiful traces. And at least for me as an architect, uh, I prefer things with character, you know, than just like very shiny new. So.
00:29:37
Speaker
I think that that definition of lasting longer is very good because it makes you think that this building the emissions that are released right now are gonna be x amount of emissions but when. After hundred years if we decided in a good way we can count the emissions that these for example local cities releasing it's gonna be x amount for example so it's a more control way to build.
00:30:05
Speaker
And then you mentioned all these like transforming buildings, which is, it's very interesting because we had also in another episode, Henna Hellander. And she was saying that, and I like this from the phrase that she meant that our cities are not sustainable as long as there is empty space in the city.
00:30:29
Speaker
Yeah. And I love that because it is true. It's like we are used to think that we need for two hours a day, we need certain building. Let's call it gym for eight hours a day. We need another building, which is office. And then another one, which is home or, you know, whatever. Exactly. Yeah. What if, you know, the, during the transition of the day,
00:30:54
Speaker
The building is just changing use, you know, and I don't mean that we need to stay in one building. I mean, we can change, but the activities in the building can change as well. Exactly. Yeah. That's a, that's a very good point. Uh, what, what Hannah said and what you're, what you're talking about. Absolutely. Um, buildings should have more than one purpose, more than one thing that they can be used for. Um, uh, that's, that's a, that's a very good point.
00:31:29
Speaker
Yeah. And so based on that, like what, what are, well, before I ask you that I had another question. So about citizen engagement, I, I love this and I truly support these. Um, there's still a lack, I would say of, uh, participation, even when it becomes popular, you know, because there's always a percentage of the population that really gets involved. Uh, but what about the rest and, um, and
00:31:58
Speaker
How can we motivate everyone to constantly be participating? We don't have to become all politicians, but what are the things that we're still lacking for that number to increase?
00:32:13
Speaker
That's a great question. And when you get the answer to that, please let me know. We were trying to figure out. Yeah. One thing that certainly comes to mind is it should be easier. I feel like there's been attempts, for example, the city of Helsinki has the Kerochkantasi website where people can kind of tell their opinions on different projects that are going on. The city of Turuk recently had a similar thing. They're planning on making a tram.
00:32:43
Speaker
That goes through the city so you could kind of boat on on the route that it takes through the city and things like that But definitely needs to be more informed for people first of all a that they can actually have an effect on these things I don't think people understand that to begin with and secondly it needs to be more easily done
00:33:01
Speaker
And I'd say one is, is through some sort of platform online. Everyone is on the internet now. Um, so it has to, but it has to become more of like, there has to be some sort of a paradigm shift, I think, where people have to realize that they can actually affect these things. And then it has to be easily accessible either through the internet or some, some other way. Um, but, but yeah, so, so there's a few things that need to happen. Um, we're doing our part somehow in that sort of,
00:33:29
Speaker
paradigm shift and helping make people realize that they can actually, that they're allowed to have opinions on architecture and the built environment and their cities and that they can actually affect them. And obviously, you know,
00:33:45
Speaker
We can't have an election every time that the city is planning on building a new building. They can't gather the entire city there. OK, everyone vote on this building. Do you like it or not? But there's obviously there's going to be people who who don't care enough. There's, you know, there's people who aren't going to be interested in these things. But but a lot of people are. And and I think we need to bring these communities somehow together more and and and help think of a way way to do it. One thing that comes to mind is there's a huge Facebook group in Finland called Arke Dehturikopino.
00:34:15
Speaker
or architecture kind of resistance, I guess is what it would be called. And their whole thing is that they're against these brand new modern buildings. And they're sort of fans of classical architecture. And they're against ugly buildings, as they say. And it's a very kind of heated discussion there. And they have a very kind of strict point of view. But still, it shows that there's a lot of people who have strong opinions on it. Yeah. And I think that's fair as well.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a great thing that they have strong opinions on it. That's wonderful. Yeah.
00:34:52
Speaker
But you're also saying this that you said like also beautiful architecture you mentioned at some point like in the sustainability part hopefully we can also create you know timeless architecture and now when you're mentioning this it's I guess that timeless also doesn't mean one particular style. No it doesn't it can mean different things yeah and especially obviously globally
00:35:20
Speaker
architecture looks different when you leave housing and you go to Africa, you go to Asia, you go to the United States or wherever. It's going to look different. So timeless architecture and style means different things in different parts of the world. And obviously, like I said, the huge challenge is we're not going to know what kind of architecture is going to look good in 50 years. What are they going to be building?
00:35:43
Speaker
And are they going to look at buildings built now and say, wow, these are so ugly. Let's tear them all down and make something that looks better. So there's a big challenge there. We can predict the future in that sense, but we can try.
00:35:58
Speaker
And I guess with AI and all these new softwares, we are seeing more and more buildings that are looking like Saha, Hadid, or Maddox. But yeah, this is very good. And you have very good points there in the citizen engagement.
00:36:18
Speaker
I was just thinking here some stats quickly that even to vote for politicians which are handling more issues of the city not only architecture but budget and other like security and whatever.
Citizen Participation Challenges
00:36:35
Speaker
Even for voting, we have like 60, 40%, like 60% voters, 40% that don't. So I guess that trying to convince people to get involved in something that touches only one single topic, it's harder. It's very hard. Yeah.
00:36:54
Speaker
But then again, if we go back to what you were saying in the beginning, the potential of cities, we would be much more interesting also in voting and getting involved in what's happening in the infrastructure of the city, if we would understand all the ramifications that this has. Exactly. And I think that's a very huge topic. It is. And I think, you know, in politics in general, I think,
00:37:24
Speaker
especially one thing that I think we've seen globally in the last 10 years or 20 years is political parties who give these real-life examples and
00:37:36
Speaker
And there's, you know, these topics, whether it be climate change or immigration or anything, where they kind of give these strong opinions and paint these kind of sometimes very dark pictures of what will happen if, you know, you don't vote against this or something. And that kind of activates people. I don't know if that's a good thing if they're kind of being activated the wrong way. But somehow people need to be like they need to understand the ramifications of
00:38:02
Speaker
And if they would realize how much these things affect them, like we've been talking this whole time, then I think they'd be much more active in voting. But that's the big question, is how do we make people understand that? How do we make people realize that? And I think especially older generations maybe aren't as interested in things like the climate as younger people. So I think there's a big thing that should be looked into. How can we activate younger people?
00:38:31
Speaker
who are teenagers now, entering adulthood. So even maybe slightly younger than that and what their views are on the future. Because that's the big people who we are currently kind of building this society for. Yes. And they're going to be influenced. Exactly. They're getting a lot of influence from us. So yeah, I agree.
00:38:52
Speaker
But moving more than to the side of architecture and designing good architecture, what is, I mean, as architects, and I guess that's also, I don't guess that's why we started Chaos as well, like Paloma and me, like co-founders and both architects, you know, and we have this need that, hey, we need more information to build better buildings.
00:39:18
Speaker
And so architects come in a late stage of the value chain. I mean, if we start with zoning and investment and development and so on. So architects come at some point there where you're trying to figure out or
00:39:39
Speaker
If you're working with a developer, you would be, or then yourself, right? But of course there's a developer or construction company behind. You're working with them and then you're defining the program. You're making a lot of studies about how the building is going to look. And, you know, finally all the, all the projections like the zoning and the investment and like the talks and negotiations and everything are coming to realize in this thing that he's going to be there in the city for a long time.
00:40:09
Speaker
And that is gonna generate a lot of opinions. So what do you think that architects should take into account when addressing these things in order to
00:40:29
Speaker
create spaces and buildings that create a sense of belonging in the community that are sustainable, that enhance the culture, the vibrancy of the culture. So what are those key things that architects should take into account or should focus more as well? Yeah. Um, we're going to kind of start from a, from a bit of a different direction and come at this. But one thing that, that what you were just saying reminded me of is, um,
00:40:57
Speaker
We've seen now in the past years, a lot of shopping centers in Finland that were built in the 70s and 80s are being demolished. And I think, first of all, their architectural style doesn't really maybe
00:41:13
Speaker
It isn't maybe what people like right now. Postmodernist stuff from the 80s that looked very cool and zany at the time and still do, but maybe they look very old and they don't attract people anymore. But that's a sad thing as well. But I think when these were being built, I think the cities or the developers didn't think that they need to invest in the sustainability or think about long-term
00:41:43
Speaker
futures for the building. They just said, OK, this looks great right now. Let's let's build it up quickly and get all the people in there to go, you know, to get them shopping in here. And and I think one thing is is to is for, you know, to help these, you know, the developers in the cities as well, just as well as just the citizens is to help them, like, make them think about the long term, you know,
00:42:09
Speaker
life of the building and and and what purposes it's going to serve us. I've been saying um so so that's that's one thing for sure um and and I think you know architects well I mean well you're an architect so so you you've done more of this uh you know betting content with developers and and cities while doing this stuff but I I feel like maybe
00:42:35
Speaker
I mean, you're better at answering this if they should have somehow more authority in that whole process, you know, because they, well, they've studied architecture, they might have a better understanding of what looks good. But I think maybe getting architects who understand these things and the social impacts and all that much more and then having them as a, you know, bigger part of that whole process. But maybe there are some sort of hurdles there that you might know better than I do because I'm
00:43:02
Speaker
I'm not an architect. So I haven't been, you know, exactly. I've been pitching a illustration of a building to a zoning, zoning company or the city and saying, here, here's what I want to build. So, so maybe there's something there that could help.
00:43:17
Speaker
Yeah, like now I'm getting so many thoughts. Actually, I was speaking a little bit touching the subject with Sami, but maybe you mentioned here something really interesting.
Stakeholder Involvement in Urban Planning
00:43:31
Speaker
It's like, architects should be more aware of the social impact.
00:43:35
Speaker
And then I guess you're saying also that they need to be brought earlier in the value chain so they can express their opinion earlier and affect whatever has to be affected before the investment is done. So I think, and this is something I try to ask Tsusami. I'm not sure if I did it successfully, but I will ask you again. Or I will repeat the question.
00:44:03
Speaker
Uh, usually, I mean, urban planning starts from the municipality and it's more like a reactive practice. Yeah. That's my impression of things, me being a very like engineered mind right now. So, uh, when.
00:44:23
Speaker
The way that we have done the things is that there's a clerk, which is or urban planner, of course, like, you know, doing their stuff and then the property owners and and cadastral like cadastral plants and so on.
00:44:37
Speaker
And then comes the property developers or construction companies or banks who are financing that, but it's always like very static. It's like, then there's a next step and the next, and those negotiations take a lot of time because there's a lot of money involved. So the value chain takes 20 years or more, and then there's people involved.
00:45:01
Speaker
It's a very static process still. I'm sure. Yeah. So, but what if we would try to make the pet, because what I'm trying to say is that a lot of the stakeholders need to be involved very early.
00:45:17
Speaker
Everybody wants that in the value chain. So real estate investors want to be there before the city starts to do the Sony. Also property developers want to have more saying in how the city goes and also architects because they have the social aspect and so on. So everybody should be, let's put it like that in the beginning. So that means bringing all the stakeholders together before the zoning even starts. And how can we do that if it's not with tech?
00:45:45
Speaker
to enable all these decisions to move faster. So it has to be more proactive, more on the go. Yeah, absolutely. And one thing that springs to mind is maybe educating these different stakeholders and developers and everyone who's involved in the whole process about these issues. And I feel like maybe they don't think about these things. Whereas, like I said, how they used to build all these shopping centers
00:46:15
Speaker
and things like that and just kind of prop them up quickly and get to the next thing and without kind of worrying about the future. I feel like especially after, you know, in the past 20 years, so now that sustainability and climate change has become a much bigger thing, like maybe there might be a slow but constant shift towards thinking about these things more. I'm sure that, you know, building sustainably is also, you know,
00:46:42
Speaker
you know when you think about somehow advertising a building or somehow pitching it it's obviously it's a it's a it's a great word to say when you're doing all that oh this is sustainable but i think also actually making making that you know making building sustainable even from a developer's or a city's point of view is beneficial for them to at least like now more than it might have been in earlier decades when people didn't worry about these things yet um but i think but i think some some sort of you know
00:47:10
Speaker
informing everyone in that whole chain about these things more. I don't know how we could do that. Maybe Arkia should have these events for developers and city planners and say, you know, hey, you should you should think about all these different, you know, points of view about sustainability and how they serve what purpose to the building serve and stuff and listen to the architects more. Yeah, but but yeah, but it's a it's a
00:47:37
Speaker
It's a great question, and it's one of those where it's hard to get to a solution, at least quickly and easily. I think there's a lot of hurdles that need to be kind of...
00:47:49
Speaker
gotten over to get there, but I'm sure it's possible. And I feel like slowly we might be moving in a direction
Municipal Role in City Livability
00:47:55
Speaker
like that. That's just my kind of gut feeling because these things are more talked about now, sustainability in the future, much more than they were previously. So yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And that was going to be my next question is like, how do you think that, for example, these events like Apollo 8 day, or like our info, like the roles that they have,
00:48:18
Speaker
in, in, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say changing, modifying, disrupting, you know, the urban planning or, or, uh, the architecture or, or how our cities are being driven. Like what is the role and what can we do to accelerate that disruption as well? Yeah. Well, I think, uh, first of all, like I kind of said there is, I think that the fact that cities and municipalities have woken up and realized that they can affect the quality of their life of their citizens in more ways has definitely helped.
00:48:46
Speaker
And that isn't to say that they didn't think about these things in maybe like the 1800s, but I feel like they think about them, you know, more and they've been given more emphasis in recent decades, at least in Finland, as is what I've seen.
00:48:59
Speaker
And, you know, now cities designate special committees to research and come up with, uh, ways to make cities more livable. One example is lofty, which recently, um, also published a new version of their local, uh, architectural policy program. They made their first one in 2010. And in that they designated a, a, an architect whose entire job is to kind of is a cityscape architect to look at, uh, what the city looks like.
00:49:25
Speaker
and a whole committee for that and I think those are great steps in making life more sustainable in the city and much more livable because they have people who
00:49:38
Speaker
Their entire job is to think about that. Yes, yes. And also, Tampere has also that, how would it be, like, cityscape committee? Yeah. Yeah, Kalbongi Kuva is what they used in latte, at least. Yeah, also, cityscape, yeah. Yeah.
00:49:58
Speaker
So to think of just, just that, that they're, you know, designating people to think about that. I don't know if they did that, you know, in, in 1850s, New York or Paris or something, or something like that. They probably didn't, but, um, that's actually, there's a very interesting book, uh, cool has wrote about that. If you're interested, he's like a delirious New York or something super. I recommended highly one of my favorite ones. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Yeah. And, and hopefully, hopefully by about hopefully day.
00:50:28
Speaker
um is is kind of our attempt at you know um taking these issues more to the forefront and and discussing them um but there's definitely still challenges with that because um the architectural policy program as we've kind of talked throughout this whole time is is it affects uh just citizens in the city um it can help uh cities and municipalities make life better for the citizens it can make smaller towns it can help them make make their their
00:50:56
Speaker
their towns more, you know, attractive. It can do so many different things. And we're still in a kind of an early stage with all this and the grand scheme of things to help, you know, people understand that citizens, city officials, you know, municipal governments, everyone who it affects. So, you know, every time we go anywhere like this past fall, we were at the kind of the municipal fair where all the different, you know, there's about 300 and something.
00:51:25
Speaker
municipalities in Finland. So people from every single one of those came to Helsinki for a couple of days and we had a little booth there and we held a couple discussions about these events. And so slowly but surely we're kind of informing the entire ecosystem about these things. So the change doesn't happen overnight but with slow and consistent work I think we can get closer.
00:51:49
Speaker
Yeah, like everything in life is lower and consistent. Exactly. Rome wasn't built in the day, as they say. Yeah.
00:52:06
Speaker
Uh, all right. Like, Hey, this is super interesting. I'm just conscious about the time now. So I will move to, uh, another section of ours, um, where I'm just going through a rapid, uh, fireside chat, like our questions, you know, and, uh, you just have to answer, you know, whatever pops to your mind first. So no thinking, just answering. Uh, yeah. Are you ready?
00:52:34
Speaker
I'm as ready as i'm gonna be alright you don't have to be nervous alright okay so first one what inspired you to pursue your current career. What inspired me was.
00:52:50
Speaker
was the fact that I feel like I can make a difference. I can help advocate for these issues that I care about, which are sustainability and just the connection that that cities and people have and how we can make the future better sustainable and better in many different ways, you know, through technology and through building and sort of help societies reach their potential.
00:53:12
Speaker
Yes. That was a very long answer. Okay. You can make a difference. That's great. Yeah. Okay. So next, uh, texting or talking, uh, texting. Wow. You're so millennial or, uh, what's for dinner tonight for dinner tonight. Uh, ooh.
00:53:39
Speaker
I think I'm going to have breakfast for dinner. So scrambled eggs and maybe something on the side. That's cool. Pancakes would be nice as well. Exactly. Okay. If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Oh, the classic cheesy answer is world peace. Um, but obviously, and obviously that would be a great thing. Um, but especially right now, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm, I'm rambling. I'm making a long answer, especially right now with everything that's going on in the world.
00:54:09
Speaker
One thing that I would change is more education globally, more people being educated. That's a good answer. All right. What's your superpower? What is my superpower? It is my good social skills and my language capabilities.
00:54:36
Speaker
Yeah, in Finnish you have to have those. Exactly. Summer or winter? Summer, a million percent summer. Okay. Who inspires you? There's a lot of people who inspire me. The first one actually that comes to mind is Sami. He's someone because I met him back when I was still in school and his whole
00:55:02
Speaker
path to where he is now and his whole story has been very inspiring and someone who I definitely look up to a lot. Oh, wow. That's super nice. Now you have to tag him and then comment this like quote. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. All right. And then what advice would you give to your younger self? That's a good question. Something I've been thinking about recently.
00:55:24
Speaker
is to just trust in yourself. There can be a lot when you're young, you're very unsure about what you want to do and what your future is like, but just believe in yourself and trust in yourself and trust that everything's going to go in a good direction and just keep being yourself.
00:55:40
Speaker
That's a great answer. Yeah, that's all. Those are all the answers. So yes, you passed. I was wondering if there's going to be any football questions. Yes. Have you watched it nowadays? We can talk about that later. Yeah, all the time. That's the only sport I watch. Yeah, I should have included that as well.
00:56:07
Speaker
But now going back very quickly, like recapping what you said, because you had a lot of interesting points. So I just go quickly through them. So, uh, one, uh, well, you started from political science and then you went to, you know, more into, uh, the architecture side and how cities can affect us. And then you said this great thing, which is like, uh, if we could only realize the potential of cities, you know, exactly.
00:56:33
Speaker
for three things. One is like, cities have a lot of people, so they create a movement. Secondly, the potential really lies in people, so people are super important. And third, it's like we need to realize how much cities are affecting people, like whatever we are building in them. Exactly. One way that that can be said differently is somehow that also the people and the communities in the city are sort of a testing platform for the city.
00:57:02
Speaker
when they kind of as years and decades go by and the city evolves the people kind of show how that development goes and what kind of direction goes into an end.
00:57:13
Speaker
And cities can sort of test different things and see how the people in the city react to them. So the people are definitely a huge key. Yeah, I agree. And then you said about, well, like key elements, like when formulating policies.
Elements of Architectural Policy Formulation
00:57:33
Speaker
Yeah. For CDCs, it's like one, that CDCs would have to do strengths and weaknesses analysis. Exactly. Then secondly, that they have to speak a lot with the local residents or citizen engagement. Exactly. And then three, that you have to ensure sustainability, for example, through transforming buildings or creating buildings that look timeless. Exactly. So staying longer. Exactly. And I think if I can still, I know we're just wrapping up, but
00:58:02
Speaker
Something that came to mind that I want to add is when it kind of ties into this, but also when building new buildings is, who are they building them for? One thing that I think of is something like San Francisco, where the center of the city is basically just these huge tech companies now and no one can really afford to be there anymore.
00:58:24
Speaker
So when we are building new buildings, we have to think about who are we building them for. Are we building them for the local people or are we building them for some sort of business to just buy it up and drive up the rent and stuff like that. So there's actually, we have an event in February called Arkinetto Renemota, which talks about these issues a lot.
00:58:45
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you in there as well. Well, and then another thing that you mentioned was that what can architects do or how can they change to ensure that we are building spaces of belonging?
00:59:01
Speaker
So you mentioned that they should have more authority in what they do. They should concentrate in the social impact that their projects are having. And then that maybe we discussed that they could be brought earlier in the value chain as well. Yeah. I think, yeah, just an overall sort of, you know, enhancing the knowledge around all this stuff overall in that whole, whole chain, that whole process chain, all the, and all the different, you know,
00:59:31
Speaker
stakeholders and all the different people who are part of that to have a more complete understanding of the entire process and the future and the ramifications of it, I think. But I don't feel like we're going in that direction slowly, but surely. I agree as well.
Future City Vision with Technological Advancements
00:59:47
Speaker
Alright so that was like a quick wrap up and then my final question that we ask everyone. So if there were no limits what kind of technological innovation would you invent to make your life easier in the city. Yeah i was i was on think about this this morning the shower actually.
01:00:07
Speaker
And I came up with a couple ideas, which I don't think even are that far fetched. I mean, something that at least one of these can be implemented overnight. But one thing that I would love is if when I'm leaving my building, I live here in Tallah and what I guess can be described as the center of housing gate.
01:00:24
Speaker
When I walk out of my building, I'd love to see real-time data of public transport, where they are, if there's any sort of disruptions or something going on, so I can have a better understanding of how I can get to wherever I'm going faster. And I feel like that could be very easily done. I feel like that could just be like an iPad on a wall of a building. And the other thing that I would love to have, since we live up here in the north,
01:00:50
Speaker
is to have sidewalks and streets heated, which I feel like could be done, but obviously would cost a lot of money. But as we're entering, it's November now and we're entering the winter time. It makes life tough for all of us and be included. And I would love if we could do that somehow easily and sustainably.
01:01:13
Speaker
Um, where, where, you know, I think it would just, it would help my life a lot. So I know these aren't very, these don't include huge technological, you know, innovations, but then again, I'm making life easier. Exactly. I just studied political science, but I'm not a scientist. So I'm going to leave the innovating to, uh, architects and engineers and people who understand that whole, whole side of the process much better than I do.
01:01:37
Speaker
But these are good comments. So hey, thank you so much for being with us. I think this has been super, super interesting. And I hope that our listeners are also interested. And if you have any questions, just send them over as well. Absolutely. I'd love to answer those and love to have conversations like this. So thank you very much for having me a part of your series. Yeah. Thank you. And let's stay tuned to the next podcast.