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Navigating the Human Landscape of Proptech
69 Plays10 months ago
Join Natalia and Sanna Walfridsson in this Unravelling Cities episode as they take a deep dive into the brilliant minds shaping the ever-evolving landscape of proptech. What are the motivations and challenges of the booming proptech industry?
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:19
Speaker
So welcome, everyone. I'm Natalia Rincon, co-founder and CEO of Chaos. And welcome back to the Unraveling Cities podcast. In our previous episodes, we have discussed that many sites of cities and megatrends, actions, policies, everything that we need to make the built environment and our cities more sustainable and livable.
00:00:48
Speaker
And the truth is that this change would not be happening without many companies working closely with the real estate industry.
Guest Introduction: Sana Walfordsson
00:00:58
Speaker
So today we are going to talk about the people driving the change in companies, the people working with sustainability, PropTech, and smart buildings.
00:01:10
Speaker
So my guest today is an expert in real estate, tech, and innovation talent management. So welcome, Sana Walfordsson. Very, very happy to have you here. Hi, Nat. Good to be here, and thank you for the introduction. Love the title experts. Yeah, it's good to be here.
00:01:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we see you constantly with the newsletters and everything like you're on top of things. So definitely. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, tell them about yourself to our listeners. Uh, what's your background? How did you end it
Sana's Career Journey and Role at LMRE
00:01:48
Speaker
up here? Like, what do you do?
00:01:51
Speaker
Yep, absolutely. So, Sana here, originally from Sweden, son of Adam Land for those Swedes that are tuning in. I've been in sales and recruitment for the past seven odd years with a gap in between where I lived in California, I've lived in Amsterdam, I
00:02:09
Speaker
I did a bachelor degree in business and finance up in Glasgow, hence the mixed accent. Sometimes my team thinks I am Irish, I have actually never been to Ireland, but it is from absolutely everywhere. And I've now been in London for nearly three years, working for LMRE, as I stated previously, real estate tech and innovation talent management, where I head up our European and UK division.
00:02:33
Speaker
focusing on commercial hires within startups, anything pre-seed post-IPO, large corporate, as well as investment in VC firms within the built environment. And yeah, it's good to be here. So thank you so much for inviting me. Yeah. And I cannot think of a better personality to deal with these things because you're always full of energy. And I always, when I see you, you're lighting there in the room.
00:02:58
Speaker
Well, that's because I've had quite a few coffees. If you were to ask the people I live with, they would not say the same thing early in the morning. So yeah, that's all. So I'm on your good side right now. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Thank you for the intro. I think this is really interesting. I'm actually learning a little bit more about you, like from the business side in finance. I also think that you have a very British accent, you know? So absolutely. I would never imagine like from Sweden.
00:03:28
Speaker
But I think you have a lot of experience in your background to understand the industry you're dealing with and then bring the best practices, but also the best talent to it. I mean, you have experience all over. So now that you're working closely with this talent in the real estate, maybe first I ask you, why did you choose real estate?
Why Real Estate? Personal Insights
00:03:53
Speaker
Good question.
00:03:57
Speaker
I've always been interested in the real estate market. I mean, you're dealing with the world's largest asset clients. There's so much happening. And I know years and years ago, I wanted to be a real estate broker, and then I wanted to be an interior designer. And then it was just always something to do with buildings. So a few years ago, when I started speaking to LMRE, and I, you know, got more involved with what they were doing and what they wanted to do, it just felt like a very
00:04:25
Speaker
easy choice at the time, definitely. So yeah, that's why I chose it. I think it's a very interesting industry and the past few years, it's been a great change in the industry. I mean, we got new trends popping up day and night, basically. So it's always something new happening. There's always something new to learn and that's what I love about it. Yeah, I think you're right because
00:04:50
Speaker
Um, I remember like having this conversation with some of our customers before, uh, a bit like, uh, um, from the previous generations, like, uh, from us and they have set the real estate has been, uh, this branch that originated from the banking industry. So it was like very formal, you know, very, you know, conservative, uh, and.
00:05:17
Speaker
I see nowadays younger and younger business people may be very enthusiastic to join the real estate. I think they're driving a big transformation and we're still waiting for that wave that it's going to come. I think we're seeing already that. But what do you think motivates people nowadays in these generations, newer generations, to jump into real estate?
The Rise of PropTech: A New Era
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, good question. So, I mean, the PropTech scene or the built environment scene, it's still a relatively new scene, making it a very attractive space to be in. As you touch upon as well, I mean, the PropTech scene is here too. Digitalize, innovate and improve the world's largest asset class, making opportunities
00:06:01
Speaker
for growth like endless and that attracts a lot of talent in itself and I think what we found in our most recent salary salary that we published back in September is that the PropTech industry actually has a higher level of employee satisfaction than other industries and there's a lot of various reasons that motivates people to come into the industry and especially with young people but I think the two
00:06:26
Speaker
main things to make this somewhat of a straightforward answer that actually unites people to come and join is one, they get to work with the most innovative tech that makes great impact on our world, like they get to be part of driving that change. And that is really something that they're, you know, they speak about the universities, they speak about that on social, but just everywhere right now is being part of that change. Everyone wants to, you know,
00:06:52
Speaker
leave something behind basically. And I think that is, that's definitely something that drives them to be part of, you know, the prop-tech scene or the built environment scene.
00:07:03
Speaker
And the other one, as I mentioned previously, it is a forever growing and changing industry, which creates opportunities. I mean, just a few years ago, PropTech was a buzzword. And I remember I still googling the accurate definition when we spoke to candidates. They were asking what actually is PropTech. So it just evolved so much. And I know back in the day, we were referring to this going to be the new FinTech era.
00:07:29
Speaker
and i think we're certainly there i mean we're getting there i mean billions are being invested into the space and i think the market size is predicted to be over 30 billion by 2030 i mean that's a
00:07:42
Speaker
That's a growth rate of nearly 6.5% year on year between now and then. So that alone is just a very exciting thing to be part of. Everyone is so aware now. I mean, we talk about these things all the time.
Exploring PropTech Sectors
00:07:55
Speaker
They see news articles, information being out there all the time. So there's so much more to PopTech today or the built environment than it was a few years ago. I mean, now we have.
00:08:07
Speaker
We divide them into different angles as well. You've got contact, mobility tech, energy renovation, IoT. I mean, the landscape continues to evolve with new trends popping up all the time. And that's definitely exciting.
00:08:29
Speaker
So, uh, yes. So you were also saying, uh, Sana here that the first one is this innovative tech. And then you mentioned the second one. I was still like waiting for that. Okay. Fair enough. We never got to that point. Um, yes, no, I mean, first of all, we're looking at innovative tech, um, which yeah. Driving change. Everyone gets to be part of that.
00:08:55
Speaker
And then the second one is something I just touched upon very previously beforehand, and that is, it is a forever growing and changing industry, and that creates opportunities. So yeah, that being part of that change and being part of those opportunities, you know, I don't know how much you heard about before we went about PropTech and how it was a buzzword. I know we're going over it a little bit again now, now with technical issues, but
00:09:24
Speaker
Being part of something that's forever growing and changing and knowing that you might have a secure job at the end of it, that is everyone wants to be part of, everyone wants to build something. And so I would say being part of the innovative tech and being part of something that's continuously evolving and changing. We all want, especially the younger generations, they do want to be part of something that is adaptable, that's changing, that they can grow in, they can climb the ladder of their career.
00:09:54
Speaker
And that's also what drives people to the industry. And because it is
Real Estate's Economic Impact
00:09:58
Speaker
that new of a scene, they also get to be part of shaping these companies. Whether that's the large corporate or the startups, I mean, they get to be part of, you know, actually having a voice when it comes to, you know, their benefits or the incentives or building the team. Like they get to have such an impact from an early age. And I think that really drives people to the industry.
00:10:19
Speaker
Absolutely. I think you're mentioning in a keyword, which is having impact. And now when we are seeing the very big trends, like, well, PropTech, we go back to that, like, what does PropTech really mean? And when we speak about property tech, but we go over that, I think it's very or touching a lot into urban tech, like anything that concerns a city. So we don't classify also there. I think we also have ConTeca and so on.
00:10:46
Speaker
But when we are thinking that the trends that we are seeing, which is like this big data that is produced in cities, and then we have this AI and the processing of this big data, but then climate change, which is an urgency for anyone who's in whatever sector industry, and we see the younger generations as well.
00:11:11
Speaker
Having these like hunger to save the world to make it better you know to be more sustainable so i think one of the things that you can think like i want to influence the city you know. Will be real estate i mean it moves like everything in how we experience her. Are life even when we order something you know when we buy abroad or in e-commerce like.
00:11:39
Speaker
It impacts everything like how an airplane moves, you know, towards and then like a bus or transportation, you know, delivering that to your door. So I think this is you're touching that like the impact that real estate is having and what is making is why people are choosing this. Yeah, absolutely. And I think just having
00:12:05
Speaker
It is, as you're saying, I mean, real estate is the core, basic core central of everything that we do. We wouldn't function today without real estate. And I think that's, to be honest, that's something that they do very well in real estate, like in university, when it comes to any program, they actually do speak about this, or most programs, I'm not going to say all of them. But yeah, I think that education piece and everyone wanting to be involved in having that impact is super crucial. I think we're going to see a bigger wave in the next couple of years, absolutely.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And have you seen, I don't know if you have realized, but at least in my social media, I've been having a lot of private owners who are jumping into these real estate ownership, like residential and flipping houses and so on. It's a trend that is very hard in this generation. I don't know if you have more
00:13:01
Speaker
Data regarding those trends but i've seen that there's a lot of interest also from the investment perspective. Like in this generation like they want to create something they want to secure their future so they become investors themselves. Unreal estate is one way to really secure your investment and there is certainly a growing aspect from that as well i mean we're seeing a lot more people in it.
00:13:31
Speaker
I think that's just the modern age of technology and everyone just sharing the experience. I mean, we have so much today. I mean, we got she codes, that's for women learning how to code. We got, you know, she invests for women learning how to invest and we have the same obviously solution for men and so forth.
00:13:49
Speaker
It's so much information out there and we're just being educated in a completely different sense. And I think, I mean, when my parents grew up and that generation and the previous generation grew up, it was easier to buy a house today. I mean, I live in London. Realistically, I probably won't be buying a house anytime soon. So we need to find these alternative solutions. And I think that sense, we are a bit more innovative in what we do with our money and people turn to real estate probably as a
00:14:17
Speaker
It's a secure investment. Yes, it will fluctuate, but it is a secure investment because real estate will always be there. Yeah, I agree with you. So what are the opportunities and challenges that you're seeing right now in the real estate, tech, talent and management?
Talent Pools in Real Estate Tech
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:43
Speaker
It's still a very young market. So whilst there's a lot of opportunity, one's opportunity might be another person's challenge. So we'll start off with saying that. But when we speak to clients and candidates, we usually divide the talent pool into two very large different verticals and that is tech talent. And then we've got commercial talent. So tech talent, you're looking at your software engineers, your back front and developers and so forth. And then you've got your commercial talents. And then we refer to sales, marketing and finance.
00:15:14
Speaker
And as I'm sure no one has missed, I mean, it's been a tough year. The tech market is still a saturated market. Layoffs are still happening. So the opportunity for this talent pool, I would say, is that it creates options for truly skilled people as this great possibility to build your career in-house. And along with that, diversity of thought is becoming more prevalent for the tech talent pool.
00:15:40
Speaker
So tech talent can often come from outside of the built environment, no matter which vertical within the built environment, but they can come outside of it. So for example, a lot of tech giants, Google, Microsoft, or you're looking at smaller startups, but outside of the built environment. So that is becoming something that's more discussed a day-to-day basis. And I think the challenges we're seeing here is that truly specific fields are sought after. So for example, ERP knowledge within the tech environment,
00:16:11
Speaker
or the skillset of a solutions architect is becoming more prevalent. So even though employers want these skills, they don't have the budget for it and that adds to the saturation. So we're looking at opportunities for truly skilled people that have specialized with down attack vertical, but it creates challenges for those who has not specialized within the vertical, but it can also be nice to know you can actually come from outside of the industry.
00:16:37
Speaker
However, I obviously work on the commercial side and that is a completely different how important that's completely different challenges and opportunities. So within the commercial space, knowledge and experience within the industry is still very much a must. And that creates opportunities for those who are already in the industry, but it creates challenges for those ones to enter it. So conversations that we're having with Canada to ones to enter the space who might be coming from
00:17:04
Speaker
another tech background, but they don't have that knowledge. In often cases, they need to take a step back in order to enter the industry to then take a few steps forward. And that creates a lot of challenges. And I think, you know, the same challenge here remains, you know, talent with specific skills, network and experience, they do cost money and you need to be humble when you set your budgets, especially if you want, you know, you want these strategic hires, you need to
00:17:34
Speaker
have that in mind, I guess. So yeah, that's a little bit of some challenges and opportunities we're seeing at the moment. Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
I think you're right in that, that we also see that a lot of, um, uh, these, uh, commercial talent that is coming usually comes from a very big corporate, uh, either being that, uh, developer or real estate investor. And, and, you know, trying to go into these modernized world, like going into a startup where they can actually.
00:18:07
Speaker
influence and impact and you know have a saying also in how things go so we are also saying that but as you're also referring i mean you it's not the same i guess that. Even when you want to make an impact there's personalities that fit different you know formats so one it's very fit for the corporate one is very fit for startups.
00:18:32
Speaker
on the side of startups is like a very fast pace, always, you know, late kind of attitude. You have to do and manage different roles at the same time. So I guess that's also nice and stressful at the same time. But yeah, you're very right on that.
00:18:54
Speaker
What do you think that we're going to experience now after this market situation? How do you see the market talent realizing, for example, during next year?
Future Trends in Real Estate Hiring
00:19:09
Speaker
Are there some things that you see already like trends developing or some changes, very big changes or something that you're detecting already?
00:19:19
Speaker
It's a hard question to answer, I would say, just because of the year we've had. So I think looking, okay, so taking it back a little bit. So looking at when it comes to talent and hires we've made this year and what our clients have been looking for.
00:19:39
Speaker
It's been mid to senior salespeople. We've had tech layoffs, but it's mid to senior salespeople and that's been the trend across all firms, which is self-explanatory. People have had to increase revenue to stay afloat. That's been the top thing. What we're seeing now and the trends that we're seeing going in and the discussion we're having for the remainder part of Q4,
00:20:01
Speaker
because we are in November. And going into Q1, Q2 next year, there's a lot more strategic hires. There's a lot, definitely a lot more discussion surrounding that. How do we take our technology to the next levels? There's a lot more tech hires. There's a lot more strategic salespeople that's coming in. And I think that the main thing they're discussing, putting vertical knowledge and industry knowledge aside,
00:20:26
Speaker
The one thing that most clients are looking for now is someone with ESG and sustainability experience, whether that would be certifications or, you know, having sold similar solutions or having, you know, worked on a similar service or solution. That is such a trend that all employers are looking for. So whether, and that's something that we say to Candice, if you can pick up an extra course or do a certificate or do something along those lines, it will help you.
00:20:54
Speaker
Because no matter what the company's service or products are, it is in the direction everyone needs to go down, whether they like it or not, that is the direction we're going down. So candidates with that experience is very valued, definitely. Yeah, I agree completely with this. And I think you're hitting well first.
00:21:16
Speaker
I think you're hitting a nerve there, like every startup had to become profitable, you know, and secure the financing for the next year. So everybody started to look like, okay, how can we become profitable faster instead of just growing, which grow, of course, is enabled by R&D, you know, and expansion sales in other markets. But, uh, I think that, uh, this sounds very logical when you're seeking for me to senior sales, uh, or marketing, then you would definitely like are putting all the efforts in becoming
00:21:46
Speaker
profitable then so that sounds very very realistic or understandable and then of course like sustainability i have two questions out of this like first do companies normally know exactly what they're looking for when they're asking for sustainability like knowledge or is this is like a title
00:22:10
Speaker
The short answer to that one is no. It's still just something for them to take a box. Not all of them, absolutely not, but the majority. I think that's just because they don't know what knowledge they are going to need for that firm in terms of sustainability or ESG or what knowledge the candidates need to have had.
00:22:36
Speaker
It's a ticking box, but I think what they hope is if they get someone with that knowledge, it's a transferable skills. So yeah.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yes and no. Do you have any advice? Because of course, at least in startups, we have to really focus in the key hires that you have to make. So I guess that one of the advices that I hear a lot from the board is that don't hire and then create a job position for that person.
00:23:09
Speaker
So you have the job position and then you hire for that. So I guess that a lot of companies right now when they're hiring like an expert in sustainability, they're going to realize that now we have to create jobs for this person. And I suppose everybody's trying to get ahead and get the best people and the talent. But when we don't know what we are doing, it only creates confusion in the organization.
Hiring for Sustainability: Key Considerations
00:23:37
Speaker
So do you have any advice for that?
00:23:40
Speaker
You're absolutely right I mean it does create confusion and we're having conversations where we've hired people into into companies and then you know a few months later they realize they probably need them right now we're too early and I think that the advice I would I would have that is take a step back the talent will still be there the talent will still come you know come to the market there there's a lot of great talent and because of
00:24:06
Speaker
how universities have changed and how certifications or if you don't go to university, there's so many other courses and jobs you can actually do. There is a new wave of talent coming into the market. So take a step back, actually understand what you're doing and make sure that you have demand for it. Speak to your clients. What do they want more out of your service or product? Make sure you know that market piece before you go and hire something because otherwise you might just make more damage and confusion and it's going to set you back
00:24:36
Speaker
further than if you just took a breath, understood what you wanted, create a job, spoke to your clients, spoke to other employees of the business, spoke to you, maybe your investors, like understand the overall view. And then as you said, create a job for it and then speak to us. And then we can help. Yeah, that would be my main tip. Because
00:24:59
Speaker
It's usually this, okay, we need this now because everyone else is doing it. We don't really know what we want. Uh, but we, we know we need something and then they just go hire something because it's how a competitor hire that, but they're not sure about the skillset that they need yet. Um, and yeah, I agree with that. And, uh, I think you, you're giving very, very good advice here. It's like speak to your customers. That's the first, like, where are they going? What do they need?
00:25:27
Speaker
And I don't think that you're going to have a sophisticated answer. Let's not go to a complex answer. I think that you have to read in between the lines what they're not telling you or what they're telling you immediately. Like, I need help in this. And then that's going to be your best answer, your best benefit.
00:25:47
Speaker
but also the industry. I've seen, so I met a lot of VCs as well. I discuss a lot with shareholders and VCs and it seems that every venture capitalist right now, it's also focusing in sustainability. So the funds where it almost feels sometimes funny that it's just like, you know, this is a sustainability fund and then everything focusing there.
00:26:11
Speaker
So sometimes I find it really hard to justify that a fund is really investing in sustainable solutions. But being this case, I think that investors are also looking that startups are thinking of their own sustainability, things that were not required before from a startup. I mean, being an innovative company, you're kind of assuming that you're already challenging the status quo.
00:26:39
Speaker
but now it comes also as a requisite that you should have at least someone thinking of sustainability in your own startup. So our startups also coming to you like with these requirements and you know with sustainability specific roles to I would say document or prepare for investors. Absolutely yeah that
00:27:06
Speaker
That is a growing role. I would say we see it more in Europe than we do in the US. So we do have an ESG practice at LMRE as well, which we started about, I said now a year and a half ago. And there's an increasing demand for candidates who has this knowledge, who prepares documents, who can see the overall agenda
00:27:34
Speaker
So yes, the short answer is yes, but we're seeing it a lot more in the Nordics especially, but in Europe, but then the US is getting there, but Europe is definitely ahead, I would say, when it comes from our view. Yeah, I have a similar feeling.
00:27:57
Speaker
Um, so, uh, another point there that when you mentioned the sustainability skills, uh, I guess that these, uh, at least for me, so I give you my background a little, like I studied architecture, focusing sustainability. So my mayors were always sustainability. So that for me is something super embedded, like how to build a house, a passive house, you know, it was always there. So it's not a trend.
00:28:21
Speaker
Right now, it's something that you were taught. You were taught to think like that. And then, of course, if you're growing in these very progressive cities or countries where you're recycling everything and so on, then it's really embedded. Like, do I have to spend how you do all your life?
00:28:44
Speaker
I think moving forward when you're advising your talent to get some curse in sustainability or so on, I mean, is there any concrete curses you recommend? I know there's a lot of like EU policies that are coming to the real estate and those for sure are something to study and to understand, but is there anything like concrete
00:29:08
Speaker
that you mentioned to these new talent regarding sustainability because I guess it's going to be embedded. We're going to have it just embedded in our system, whatever we study regarding sustainability. Again, completely depending if we're speaking to talent from the UK or from other European countries or from the US. What I recommend, if you can and if you have that possibility and those opportunities,
00:29:38
Speaker
do a course or something that is certified by a body of reputation so that you can actually back it up with a certificate, whether that would be a REMA or it can literally be anything. I think what we're still seeing is there's a lot of, and what I have found as well, there's still a lot of ESG and sustainability courses that just takes a box.
00:30:04
Speaker
them explaining what ESD and sustainability is, but it's not so much putting that into practice. So I'm still, I guess, yet to find a set of courses that I would recommend full-heartedly to candidates, to be honest. So if anyone listening in has any great tips that I've missed, absolutely send them across. But
00:30:26
Speaker
I think that's a lot of feedback we're getting from clients as well when we put forward sustainability candidates that have not yet worked with it in practice, which is hard because they might be asking for 10 years of sustainability, working with it in practice, but that doesn't really exist yet because we're
00:30:46
Speaker
We're just getting there. They can't expect someone to come in and have all this wealth of knowledge and have worked with across different industries and know everything because we're not there yet. We're getting there, but I think just having that realistic approach. But yeah, what we're finding from maybe a bit more graduate candidates is that they know what ESG and sustainability are theoretically, but they do not know how to apply it yet.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I guess it's, there's a lot of like scales that help you with that. For example, if you come from legal side, they're like, you're used to follow the trends. So for sure, that's going to give you like a head start, you know, when you start reading, like when the policies are saying in order to prepare also.
00:31:28
Speaker
your company um but then okay so um once you get the talent so now i'm gonna jump to like uh the the trends that we are saying and and like what type of uh people like uh we are companies are now recruiting
00:31:44
Speaker
But how can companies or startups attract, well, companies in general, I mean, being startups or corporates, but how can they attract talent and the best skills? And these are two different questions for depending the company that you have. And how can they retain the talent as well?
Investing in Employee Development
00:32:05
Speaker
A million dollar question. I mean, to be honest, if done right, it's learning and development.
00:32:12
Speaker
Absolutely. I think one of the biggest issues is that employers today want the final product, if I so may, but the perfect person for the job will constantly change as the market changes. I mean, and as we've said throughout this podcast, there is a forever changing market and as your company grows, there will be a different need from this person. So that will constantly change. So that investment piece in your employees is crucial for the long-term growth.
00:32:41
Speaker
And the very often, unfortunately, short-term solution that we see hiring managers do is that as soon as the market changes or your company changes, they make redundancies and then they hire for what's right in that moment because they need it for a specific thing. So they kind of have this very jumpy approach. And in most cases, that creates a lot more issues in the long term. As you will have a high turnover rate, you will decrease loyalty, trust amongst your employees,
00:33:09
Speaker
and you will have a forever changing company culture and that can be very detrimental. Invest in your employees. Listen to what they actually want because if you have that learning and development piece and you do that right, it just adds to the culture. It adds to how everyone conducts themselves in the business. It adds to people living and breathing your values as a business.
00:33:30
Speaker
So it's very important to understand their wants and needs. Put your employees first, because if you do, they most likely will put your clients first. And then in that case, it's a win-win solution. And that is very often forgotten, I think.
00:33:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And this learning and development, it's very funny, but that's very like, even if you take it in a personal level, isn't that what we all want? And even when you're with a partner, and therapy also tells you this, that you have to support your partner in the growth.
00:34:04
Speaker
because they will become a different person that you initially knew. So I guess that we're all in this path, supporting each other. And if we make that journey something that we can actually enjoy, then we stay. And that being for personal relationships or for company relationships as well, I think both. It's a very, very logical way to put it.
00:34:32
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it is just a link back to what we said earlier about ESD and sustainability and roles coming up and hiring for what you need. I mean, for example, if you have a person currently working in your firm and they might not at the moment possess the skillset that you see that you need in the future, if this is a loyal employee that's been with you, do you know he's a hard worker and adds to the culture, adds to the team?
00:34:58
Speaker
that person might actually have the interest to take on that additional three-four-week course to gain that knowledge. That's a smaller investment to do than to go hire new people who doesn't know your company culture. It's something that you can also look at. It's that investment piece of continuously
00:35:21
Speaker
teaching employees new things if they have that interest to make sure that, you know, you have a brilliant team behind you, because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good of a service or solution you have, unless you have a good team, you're, you know, you're kind of left out. So, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. And I think it matters so much. I mean, we always think that we, we are rational beings.
00:35:47
Speaker
and that we just need to figure everything out. But I think that business is especially like making business is a people job, like a people person, you know, might be a job. So yeah, definitely like when we are speaking about about all these, we are speaking about relationships.
00:36:08
Speaker
I'm a bit old-fashioned in there that I really value looking for the employees and making them grow as well. Now I actually have a good way to justify that thinking because you were putting it really well. If you hire for that moment instant gratification, let's put it like that,
00:36:29
Speaker
Then you don't know what's gonna happen like afterwards so you really need to hire people that want to grow are able to grow to learn to be Resilient to have great. Yeah, you know and have the hard conversations as well because we always will face you know these moments of uncertainty where we are pushed outside of our comfort zone and we don't realize like do I want to grow in here or not and
00:36:56
Speaker
But if you have the right support, I think it's going to be like paying in the future really well, like for the company, for yourself, for everyone. Absolutely. No, I certainly think so. Yeah, that investment piece and understanding your employees and their wants and needs is crucial. When we're actually at the casino, you said it was two separate things. When we began the question and I started rambling on, I think another thing that is,
00:37:26
Speaker
worth mentioning is especially working with tech talent is that they want to work with the newest hottest thing on the market. So if you have the opportunity, committing capital to your technology solutions is a crucial piece to attracting and maintaining talent, especially in the tech industry. I mean, working with legacy solutions and projects just because it's always worked. Yes, it's nice.
00:37:52
Speaker
but it's not always the right move. And yeah, we're going to attract the best talent on the market if you keep doing that. So that's worth answering. Yeah, yeah, you're right. It reminds me of this book also that I read, like Mission Economy. I don't know if you've read it, but it's speaking up. Yeah, it's really good. I recommend it. It's like how a public should also be more innovative, like the public sector.
00:38:20
Speaker
So they're giving an example of NASA, and of course NASA was putting like billions and billions of dollars. And they are saying that everyone wanted to work for the public sector, which was NASA then, because everybody was purring into all the innovation there. So all the best talent didn't go to the private companies. They actually started to go to NASA. And then from there,
00:38:48
Speaker
There were a lot of different technologies that were evolving from NASA and business models that we are not aware of. But it was like a spillover into so many industries. So I agree with you. It's like we are all curious, like as humans. So the more opportunity we have to to participate in these like innovation and creative and having an impact, like the more talent you're going to attract. I completely agree. Yeah.
00:39:26
Speaker
All right. Okay, so maybe also just going back to the team side, you touch a very sensitive topic for us because we believe in people. That's how we started Chaos. We thought that real estate is not considering the end customer, which is people, like how do we like our cities and what can we afford, et cetera. What else do we need?
00:39:55
Speaker
So definitely I think that what makes any company and startup is people as well So do you have like any like advice with what you see like in these matters like uh, you know An advice for every company to really take care of their people like what have you seen or what can you advise overall like that we all can you know pour into
00:40:21
Speaker
the team, be proud of them, recognize them as well, embrace talent and build bonds, build really good bonds with them as well. Because after all, we're in a people's business. Great question. I'm in the talent business and this is something that I'm truly passionate about.
00:40:44
Speaker
The one main thing is listen to your employees. They will tell you, you can't make everyone happy. I know everyone's thinking, I can't please everyone. No, you can't, but you can listen to them and understand that one approach does not fit all that you can do. So listen to them, come up with the program. So if you are the founder or you are the C-suite or wherever you are in the business, come up with a plan, whether it's a hiring plan, onboarding plan, benefits and incentives.
00:41:12
Speaker
come up with that together with your line managers who's most likely would have spoken to your employees because your line managers are the ones who's going to implement this on a day-to-day basis. It doesn't really matter what decisions you make at the top unless they're on board with it. So everyone needs to be on board with it in order for it to actually be implemented to a good site. So that is the one thing I would say. And then I think what we've seen in the past year
00:41:41
Speaker
is when your company is going through hard times, the first things they usually cut is either capital to new technology or its benefits, incentives, learning and development. Don't cut those things because unless you take care of your employees during hard times, they won't have your back when you want to work towards them becoming into the good times again. It's very important, I would say.
00:42:08
Speaker
I don't
Incentives, Benefits, and Employee Loyalty
00:42:09
Speaker
know. I feel like I've rambled on. I feel like I'm so passionate about it. I'm just very worried about it. Yeah. Listen to your employees. Make sure everyone's on board with what you want to implement and make sure you have that structure of onboarding, of incentives, of benefits, and keep that consistent. That consistency is so crucial, whether that comes to communication or
00:42:32
Speaker
know, it can be quarterly lunch clubs or whatever you want to have as a benefit or incentive for that consistency. But it all starts with listening and sitting down as a team. Because if you want them to work as a team, you need to sit down as a team and discuss it with them. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I think that's one of the advices we take into our startup
00:42:56
Speaker
Every time that we have budget to create a new benefit, everybody decides what benefit we will take. And we have voting. And also when we need to cut a little bit, we all discuss what should we cut? Should we be here? Should we restrain from this? And then we all agree again. But as you said, you're a team and you're in the same boat. So everybody should be part of that decision as well. Absolutely. And I think that's definitely
00:43:26
Speaker
I think it's easier as maybe a younger leader that has been part of driving that change and who wants to be part of driving that change because also how we lead teams has changed drastically. So there's a lot more adaptivity, there's a lot more change that needs to happen in certain organizations, I think, to actually understand that, yes, you do need to speak to the person who joined a few months ago.
00:43:56
Speaker
who is, you know, who might be just, you know, who might be getting coffee, wherever that wherever their position is in the firm is crucial for everything to go around. It doesn't really matter what function you have. I mean, you are there to work as a team and everyone has their own function to you to go around as a team. So you do need to involve everyone. And I think and everyone wants to be part of that change. So the sooner you involve employees from the start and ask them to
00:44:24
Speaker
and they get to have their opinions and, you know, they get to be heard, the better buy-in you'll have from them as well. And the more productivity, the more trucks, the more loyalty, it all just cripples on. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Oh my God. We can really discuss this like forever. I'm getting really passionate here. Yeah.
00:44:50
Speaker
But now I'm going to jump to some surprise fire questions for you. Oh, wow. OK. Yeah. Are you ready? Oh, I don't know. But here we go. You don't have to think a lot about the answer. Just answer whatever comes to your mind.
Quick-Fire Questions: Sana's Personal Insights
00:45:09
Speaker
So yeah, I'll start then. What era would you like to live in? Oh, wow, 1960s.
00:45:19
Speaker
Wow. That's so funny. And then I have to ask why, but later. Okay. What's your favorite day of the week? Thursday. Okay. Interesting. What's your, so invisibility or super strength? Invisibility. Yeah, you agree.
00:45:44
Speaker
How long does it take for you to get ready? Probably 10 to 15 minutes because I'm always late. So I've had to shorten down my getting ready part. So yeah, 10 to 15 minutes. All right. That's quite fast. Coffee or tea? Coffee. God, yes. Yeah. What does a person need to be happy?
00:46:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good answer. I mean, come on, we're speaking about talent. Yeah. What's your secret power? I'm very adaptable. I can adapt to any situation, I think. Yeah. All right. And who inspires you? My mom.
00:46:35
Speaker
Oh, nice. All right. Thank you. So, so you pass a test. Yeah. So let me just summarize quickly, like what the points, the key points that you were mentioning here before we start like, um, like to wrap up things. So, um,
00:46:57
Speaker
Well, you told me that you got into this industry initially because of your personal interest. Yeah. So now you're laughing there. I'm recapping from the beginning. And so I think that you're seeing the same with the younger generation just like driven by the sense of satisfaction. You also mentioned that the talent is very motivated for two things like
00:47:25
Speaker
One, that it's innovative tech, that you want to leave something behind, have an impact. And then second, that you're growing and you're in a growing and changing opportunity, like a market that is really big and growing constantly. So two motivators for people to come to the real estate side. You also mentioned that there's the talent that you're seeing being hired right now
00:47:51
Speaker
It's between tech, like ERP and Solutions Architect, while in the sales size commercial side would be me too, senior sales guys. But also a super, super big trend, someone dedicated or with experience in sustainability as well.
00:48:09
Speaker
So that's something to look for you recommend also that people really start nourishing and learning about sustainability as a whole to broaden. Their portfolio or their knowledge as well.
00:48:24
Speaker
And then in order to retain talent you have to really make everybody feel like a team, like onboarding them, speak about benefits, incentives and overall learning and development path. We have to have that also to grow in an organization. So am I missing something here? No, I think you've summarized it to the T and I think the
00:48:54
Speaker
I think the two main things I would probably mention is for protect talent. Don't think you can't go into the industry just because you're out of the industry and the same goes for commercial. I know I've said that you need that industry knowledge for the commercial side, but there's still ways. I mean, give us a call. We can absolutely discuss your different options, but there's still a chance to get into the industry. Absolutely there is.
00:49:20
Speaker
Just make sure that if you want to gain some knowledge already, make sure you have that SaaS experience, no matter which vertical within the, yeah, no matter what role you want to go into, make sure you have the SaaS knowledge and make sure to study up on your ESD sustainability, speak to different firms, scatter the market, very important, yeah.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. That's very, very good. And then just to end up, there's one final question that we ask all of our guests. So if there were no limits, what kind of technological innovation would you invent to make your life easier in the city? Oh, wow. That's a good question.
00:50:04
Speaker
I mean, no limit aside, I do live in London. And trust me, the morning commute on the Central Line is, it's not pretty. It's not something I would recommend to anyone. And for those wondering who have seen the Central Line or Jubilee Line in the morning, yes, I am one of those who take a step back and then I jam myself straight into the call train.
00:50:26
Speaker
Because I do not have time to wait for another two minutes for the next one. So if we can get a solution that take me from A to B without any hassle, any issues, that would be great. Yeah, teleportation technology. I love because this is the answer that has come a lot. We're on to something. If someone wants to build a startup, teleportation, teleportation.
00:50:51
Speaker
Yeah. I'd be the first semester. Please, please do create that. Yeah, that would be, that would be the one. Definitely. Cool. So thank you, Sanaa, really like for being here. I really enjoy the time. You're, you're super chirpy, so you really like food, like sunshine in my day. So thank you again, like for being with us. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much, Natalia. And yeah, it was great to be here and have a good Wednesday, everyone. Yeah.
00:51:20
Speaker
And for our listeners, like to tune in for the next one. Have a nice day.