Transcript
Speaker: At the time of publishing, we are still awaiting Judge Wysocki to issue a permanent parentage order for Nausheen Gilgar and Omar Ahmed to be recognized as the legal parents in the state of Texas, which is consistent with the Alaska pre-birth order issued at the beginning of their surrogacy journey and in line with the gestational surrogacy agreement.
Speaker: Sometimes what is true is everybody sitting on this table is not going to get what they want. This is not the situation you signed up for. This is not the situation they signed up for, but this is the situation we're at. Ethical surrogacy is easy to talk about when everything goes according to plan.
Speaker: But what does it look like when it doesn't? The recent case involving baby Rumi has brought national attention to some incredibly difficult questions about surrogacy, parental rights, bodily autonomy, and what happens when a surrogate and intended parents no longer agree.
Speaker: But this conversation isn't about deciding who was right or wrong in one complicated case. It's about the questions underneath it. What should be in place before a pregnancy even begins?
Speaker: How do you protect both the surrogate and the intended parents? And when something unexpected does happen, who helps everyone navigate what comes next? But as an agency, our responsibility is not just to make a match happen. It's to help determine should that match happen.
Speaker: Today, I'm joined by Katie Encolade, President and CEO of Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions, and Crystal Chang, Vice President of Surrogacy Program and Client Content Development. But before either of them held those titles, Katie was a surrogate herself, and Crystal built her family as an intended parent through surrogacy.
Speaker: Together, we explore what ethical surrogacy actually looks like in practice and why the protections built before a journey begins matter even more when things don't go according to plan.
Speaker: There has been a lot of conversation recently about the ethics in surrogacy. And i think cases like the one involving baby roomie can leave people really wondering just how is surrogacy supposed to work and who is being protected? How can everybody be protected? So Katie, for those that are just not aware, can you give an overview of when I say the baby roomie case, you know, just What is that? What's going on? First of all, Whitney, I'm so glad that we are sitting down to have this conversation. but
Speaker: and so this case involves a, well, theres there's two issues at hand. First was termination, but the second is paternity. And in surrogacy, that is established as who is the parent in the state where a baby's being delivered.
Speaker: in And so in this case, the surrogate lived in Alaska. Intended parents are always gracious to travel towards a surrogate where that baby is going to be delivered. And so paternity and their rights as parents were established in the state of Alaska. In surrogacy, everything's done by state. It's not you're not just a U.S. citizen. It has to be done in each individual state.
Speaker: So when she chose to travel outside of Alaska, that's where the jurisdiction went away. And now Texas courts, in a sense, all those things that were already decided on in Alaska now have to be decided on again in and Texas. I was a surrogate in Texas. That was pre-decided on. You were a surrogate in Texas. That was pre-decided on before we ever even got pregnant. And that's what should have happened in this case. um But it was the fact that that surrogate traveled across state lines that is making this complicated.
Speaker: I think what's important to note in this and the baby roomie case is it is a case where surrogates and well, a surrogate and intended parent have faced a difficult decision that they likely discussed on a surface level, but maybe it wasn't double clicked into in what something really looks like when it happens in real life. And you know, and and Crystal knows that that's what's important in surrogacy.
Speaker: Everything is not going to just be absolutely perfect with zero issues. um What really determines an an ethical agency or an ethical journey when it's all said and done is how you navigate those difficult scenarios when they do happen.
Speaker: This type of situation where intended parents and surrogates living in different states is not uncommon. But like you said, every contract is based on the state in which the baby is being delivered. So even with the parents being outside of Alaska, like that aspect of it didn't matter. It was their contract being in Alaska was what is making the jurisdiction an issue. So going, i mean, obviously this case just brings up a lot of questions and you kind of have already brought it up, but what does ethical surrogacy actually mean? So yes, Katie, you and I have both been surrogates. You now lead an agency. How has just your own experience being a surrogate shaped the way that you do think about
Speaker: matching and just the responsibility of that an agency has to both parties?
Speaker: I think a match isn't successful because two people say yes. It's successful because of what they're saying yes to. Being a surrogate, like I learned this is a deeply personal decision, not only for a surrogate, but for a family. Like there is a lot of vulnerability in choosing to put your hope and your trust and your faith in another human and I knew I was carrying someone else's deeply wanted child and I never took that lightly as a surrogate. So I was matched with a perfect family um that I call my perfect family and trust was built over time because we did have some hard things that we did have to navigate and we leaned on the relationship that we had built through that journey in order
Speaker: to navigate that. But as an agency, our responsibility is not just to make a match happen. It's to help determine should that match happen. I often say, you know, a good quality match or a good agency, that means they're comfortable disappointing people. Typically in the very beginnings, that means timelines. Maybe this isn't going to go as fast, I know me personally, if you, if you look back on how long surrogacy used to take versus how long surrogacy takes now, those are two drastically different things. so that can be disappointing, especially for a family who they've been on such a long road and long journey to find out, wow, screening this GC and bringing in a mental health professional and the legal aspects, which is so important to have that legal representation that's independent, that takes time. And so our job as an agency sometimes is just to slow down that process and make sure that everyone feels comfortable with what those next steps are. No, I completely agree with you. I always say we're not making it slow on purpose. It's that we want to dot those I's and cross those T's and make it you know where this is done well, not just done, but done well.
Speaker: Crystal, you built your family through surrogacy. When you hear that phrase, ethical surrogacy, what does that mean for you from that intended parent perspective?
Speaker: I mean, it was the phrase that kept me up at night for a long time before we decided to do this because immediately as an intended parent, you're thinking about your own interests and how do I know that I'm not going to get scammed and how do how what's the difference in a quote, legit versus not legit agency. And how am I even supposed to know? But then going down that internet rabbit hole, as an intended parent, I began to discover ethical was a much broader, a much broader conversation about what does it mean to work with women when there's money involved and not take advantage of underserved women who do not have other choices? Where is the line
Speaker: between ethical surrogacy and there's really a like a dark trafficking side where this could go if we're not performing ethically and so as an intended parent once i realized all of that it became really important to me to figure out who's acting ethically and how do i link up with them because i only know what i know and that's not enough um i share this now in my role with intended parents i share all the time surrogacy is an unregulated industry.
Speaker: And I'm not saying that it should be highly regulated by the federal government. There's plenty of examples of when the federal government has not made everything better and easier, but there are also plenty of examples where there is regulation to keep things safe for all parties.
Speaker: Um, and when I learned that there was no kind of common regulation across state lines, it made it even more important for me as a parent to go, okay,
Speaker: If I'm going to do this across state lines, how do I do this in a way that honors the dignity and the personhood of the surrogate, the dignity and the the personhood of our own family? And also, at the end of this, I have a kid and this is their life story. This is their family story, their origin story. I want it to be something that they're proud of and not something that they bury later on because they feel a little bit cringy about how it was done. And ultimately, all that anxious Googling is what led me to this agency, because when I started deep diving on who is a member of SEEDS, the Society for Ethics in Ag Donation and Surrogacy, but also who do surrogates say treated them well and who do parents say treated them well?
Speaker: Who do people say were was honest in the Google reviews and in the Facebook reviews? It felt very grassroots to do it that way, but that's how I got here was asking those questions about who does everybody say i was treated fairly, whether I got the outcome I wanted or not.
Speaker: I was treated in a way that felt honest and fair. Again, that is just, that's like the beginning of it. And then Katie, you, we've kind of already began talking about the matching aspect of it because you're right. You can't just have two people say, yeah, sure. I want to do this. And then just say yes and call it a day. So when we say, you know, a match that feels right, what is what exactly does that mean?
Speaker: I think there's alignment on a few things. There's typically alignment around like values, expectations, and then communication overall and what that looks like. I just feel like the goal of matching isn't just to find two people to like pop them together and like, you want to be a surrogate and you want to be a parent, like let's go on this journey. Like,
Speaker: It's not just finding what those specific things are. It could also be understanding what they don't align on. Sometimes those don'ts are just as as important as those yeses. and then And then who you're going on this journey with. But this is not just all about that case. But ultimately what happened in in my occurrence, what happened here is they let the people that They had a trusting relationship with an agency, one another. i mean, you can read in the news stories, like they went to transfers together. They experienced positive things together. They were growing a relationship and something happened that they weren't expecting. And they allowed outside influences to come in to a super personal matter, be that the media, be that politicians. And they stopped listening to each other and relying on the decisions that were already made and that they had committed to.
Speaker: That communication piece and the reliance on one another and the things that already committed to, i think are important aspects of this particular situation. Katie, you're so right. And i just think about the intended parents listening are probably sitting in a seat where I sat, where you hear those long, long numbers, like it could take 10 months to match or maybe, maybe longer than that. And there is such pressure to just say what you need to say to get a match.
Speaker: And then deal with whatever comes later. And it is so, i think that's the role of an agency is to push us as parents a little beyond what we're comfortable with. Um, we tell parents all the time, they say to us, I don't want to talk about termination yet.
Speaker: It's like, well, we're going to talk about termination because it is so important to go past. Just what do I need to say to get matched and get to, yeah but what if we end up in a difficult situation and who is making that decision? and how do we collaborate together if we disagree.
Speaker: Well, and i think I've heard intended parents say, you know, when talking to oh, whatever that GC is comfortable with. Oh my gosh. And I love to remind them, like, this is still your child. It's still a birth experience. It is their story, their creation story. um You know, our world puts quite an emphasis on pregnancy, on photos and on, you know,
Speaker: gender reveal and all these things. So like we've decided that pregnancy is really important. And so it's important for antenna parents to get to experience that piece of this journey as well. And, and sometimes it does take from an agency extra prodding to ask questions like,
Speaker: well, do you want to cut the cord? How do you feel about delayed cord clamping? Or, you know, is there someone else that needs to experience this? Like there are a lot of other, how do you feel about music going on in the room? or and And none of them are necessarily like decisions that just have to be the surrogates. They can also be collective decisions for what it looks like for for you to experience some of those things as well.
Speaker: Well, and I think that same line of, you know, oh, whatever, you know, the surrogate wants. I have that same conversation with gestational carriers. I love that you want your intended parents to experience all of the things. And you cannot continue to just defer to them if you're uncomfortable with something. And so it really does, like when we say find the right match and when we say, hey, we're going to have these uncomfortable conversations, it's because we don't want to be in a situation of actually now that I'm in it, I really do have an opinion on it.
Speaker: Whatever that may be, whether it's termination, whether it's who's in the room what delivery day, just whatever it may be all of that I feel like is so, so important. is.
Speaker: Crystal, now that you are sitting in the seat that you sit in, what are maybe some of the conversations that you're having with intended parents, you know, that have changed over the course of time from whenever you started as an intended parent to now where you're helping guide intended parents? Yeah.
Speaker: yeah I mean, when I started as an intended parent, it was so much about, and for me, it was like, I just want to create good vibes. I just want everybody to be happy. yeah say what ah i think in our match meeting, if our GC is watching this, she's going to laugh. I think I pretended to like black bean burgers because she said she liked black bean burgers and I just wanted us to have something in common. And that wasn't true at all. And I don't like black bean burgers. And on this side of things, I see so much more value in coming exactly as you are.
Speaker: Say exactly what you think. You got to come in and be honest about what matters to you um because it will come out. Eventually it will come out. What matters to you will show up for some parents. It shows up in the legal phase of the journey that everything was good vibes and we agree on everything in a, in a match meeting and we get to legal. And now we're trying to add as much as possible to have control over the situation, um which to be honest, the legal agreement is the lowest possible standard for how we treat each other.
Speaker: And so if we're already trying to manipulate choices and and force people to do what we want them to do, that's not a great sign in the legal phase. And it's way better to have those conversations early on than to get surprised in a contract with something that you weren't ever expecting to see in a contract. um Or, i mean, we see that even later down the road when people are looking at birth plans and delivery room and everything in,
Speaker: in the beginning was just how do I get matched? And so i didn't say that I wanted this type of hospital. I didn't say that it really mattered to me that I was in the room and in this specific part of the room, but that's not fair to spring on somebody.
Speaker: And so what what we continue to say is let's make every decision we can before somebody's pregnant. Let's have every conversation we can have. Let's be as honest as we can be because eventually we will navigate these things together.
Speaker: Let's navigate them when the stakes are low and the emotions are calm rather than when the stakes are high and the emotions are running high too. You said something really interesting. You said the legal phase is the lowest, say it again, the lowest bar of how we treat each other. What do you mean by that?
Speaker: I tell parents that all all the time because it is. If you have to bring in the contract to force somebody to do something, that legal agreement is the lowest possible standard for how we're going to treat each other. And it establishes whose baby is this, unless you go to a different state where that legal agreement is no longer valid to circumvent whose baby this is. It establishes whose baby is this and it establishes who's going to pay who what money. But it is not the roadmap for how we treat each other.
Speaker: And if we come in with that of like, this is my power and this is my leverage, that's not a good match. At that moment, we know that's not a good match. Our expectation as an agency, my expectation for every parent we work with and every GC we work with is we come in and we go, hey, that legal agreement establishes parentage, but we're going to treat each other at a much higher standard than the legal minimum.
Speaker: And that's where we see the best matches. That's where we see people collaborate in decision making. That's where we see people who do face really difficult diagnoses and really difficult circumstances come to come to the table together and figure out how to treat each other better than the minimum standard requires, rather than reaching for an agreement that could have never predicted this situation anyway and trying to yeah use all the leverage and power that we have. The power dynamics do feel unfair in surrogacy.
Speaker: There are power dynamics that we try to name early on, that it feels like it should be 50-50 all the way through, and it's not. If we are relying on the absolute legal minimum standard, it really is kind of like 99-1% that the GC has all the decision-making power in that relationship until that baby is out of her body.
Speaker: You cannot force someone to take the pink pregnancy test and not the blue ones. You cannot force somebody to take a prenatal vitamin of your choosing, the brand that you like, can't force someone to let you in the delivery room.
Speaker: You can't force someone to have a termination who doesn't want one. So those power dynamics feel really unbalanced. And then the minute that baby's out of the birth canal, it flips 99 one in the other direction. And it feels really um but unbalanced that the person who carried that baby for nine months, you can't force them to let you see the baby.
Speaker: You can't force them to give you pictures or updates. And it feels if we're going to rely on the legal standard, what you're relying on is really this like super imbalance of power. And what we hope to see in every match is do both parties come to the table with a desire to share power, with a desire to collaborate, to treat each other better than the 99.1 standard is requiring and to honor each other above what is going to be enforced in a court of law.
Speaker: That's really what we're looking for. Yeah. Is there ever a point where as an agency, you know, we say these are two wonderful people and they should not match.
Speaker: Yup. And it is the hardest decision we make. Let me tell you, that is a terrible decision. It is uncomfortable for everybody. It is one, um, that I,
Speaker: and I made recently with the help of our team, with the help of our leadership team, with the help of our matching and education team, we saw a match that technically everyone was saying yes, technically.
Speaker: And there were just enough gray areas and there were just enough questions about power and how could we leverage it and how could we force someone and how can we cross a boundary that's very clearly a boundary, but but we can cross it, right? There were enough of those questions. And ultimately what it came down to was, i i say a cultural difference.
Speaker: Both parties were ethnically the same, but one was an urban suburban family and one was a very rural family. And i grew up in deep rural Appalachia.
Speaker: Deep rural upbringing has shaped what I see as normal families. in operating in the world. um My husband grew up in an urban environment that has shaped his understanding of what is normal in the world. And already in a match meeting and in a meeting after the match meeting, we were having some conversations about, well, that's not normal.
Speaker: They can't make that decision. are are they Do they really have the best interests in mind? And there was suspicion developing already that really centered around What's normal for me might not feel normal for you.
Speaker: What's every day for me, what is ah best best choice in a medical facility for me may not be what is best choice said and easy for you. And we could have absolutely slid that match through and taken their money, to be honest. Everybody was on board with saying yes.
Speaker: It's just not a match that we could sleep at night with, knowing if if the train's going off the tracks here, and nobody's pregnant, and there's really no money on the line, there's no legal agreement, if it's off the rails here, we could stop it here and create a lot of discomfort, but avoid so much discomfort down the road. And ultimately, that's the decision that we made. but That's not an easy decision to make. It's one of the reasons I super appreciate that we don't take money until ah matches are finalized, because that's a harder decision to make when money's on the table.
Speaker: It's just a harder decision to make when everybody's financially entangled with one another. And I think we have a little bit of freedom to make those hard calls, even if we disappoint people in a way where there's there's not also financial strings attached to that, that everybody can walk away and feel good about it.
Speaker: And what a great example of you know just I think it can be so easy for for people to get become keyboard crusaders and to say, you know oh agencies are just, you know they're they're just wanting to to make a match and get the check written and all of that. And what a great example of...
Speaker: You are not a number. We genuinely care about you. And exactly to your point, this may be uncomfortable in the short term, but oh man, this is so much easier to deal with than now there is a surrogate who's pregnant and, or now there is you know, and another issue on top of, you know, what was already brewing. um And I just, I, I love that so much because it is beyond just, are you qualified?
Speaker: it' It's even beyond, oh yeah, everybody, everybody said yes. And it's, it really does go down to those, those nitty gritty things. It takes more than love to create a family.
Speaker: It takes compassion, courage, and connection. At Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions, we've spent more than 18 years helping hopeful parents, surrogates, and egg donors create happy families through egg donation and surrogacy, one relationship at a time.
Speaker: Our team has been there. Many of us are former surrogates, egg donors, and intended parents, so we truly understand this journey. If you're ready to take the next step, visit createahappyfamily.com to apply today.
Speaker: All right, let's get back to the show. You've kind of you've you've already talked about it, k Crystal. you know When you look at it from the most base level, it really is this just unchecked or un unbalanced you know kind of idea of power. I know for me as a surrogate, I always understood you know there were two things true at the same time. It was my body, and I had autonomy, and I was carrying someone else's baby, and they were the parents.
Speaker: So in ethical surrogacy, how do we hold both of those truths at the same start at the same time, especially when what the surrogate wants and what the intended parents want don't perfectly align?
Speaker: I mean, I think you said it really well because like the autonomy that a surrogate has doesn't mean the absence of responsibility and the commitment that she's made. But then parenthood doesn't mean the ownership of someone else's and another person's body. And Crystal, I think explains that really well, how decisions made at certain points and then it flips.
Speaker: And I think as an agency, like our goal isn't to decide whose rights matter more. It's really more to build a journey where everyone's rights and responsibilities are understood from the get-go. And then maybe how does that ebb and flow through the process? um I talked a little bit that like we did have a hiccup in our journey,
Speaker: And we had decisions to be made and the family that I cared for was not local to me. So when I went to see an MFM and then I was immediately checked into a hospital, like they weren't here. they They couldn't meet with the doctor right then. They couldn't ask all of their questions.
Speaker: um And people were coming in and out of that room. And I was like, I don't even know who some of these people are. I don't even know the questions that I'm asking. What what decisions are we actually making? i was only 22 weeks pregnant at that time. And- the intended mom said, Katie, I trust you to make the same decisions for our baby as you would make for your own. and those decisions for their baby, just as I would make for my own baby, also were factoring in me and my situation and the three kiddos that I had at home. um
Speaker: and And when we were making decisions, for instance, I was not at viability. And I remember on like day two, they took the monitors off of me. And I was like, why did you take the monitors off? You know, the the heartbeat monitors. Yeah. Like, well, you're not at viability. So even if you did go into labor, we wouldn't do anything about it.
Speaker: And I just remember, like, i was like, why? Like, I kind of didn't know what to do with that information. And so I called them and I said, like, hey, just so know, because I've been updating them with like heartbeat and they they took the monitors off. Here's why. And they were like, OK, that makes sense. and I remember in that moment, like it kind of didn't feel good because i was still pregnant. But like they were like, we wouldn't.
Speaker: we wouldn't do anything at this time. And, you know, you can take however you feel about all the things and all, you know, but ultimately then i was sitting in hospital and I was getting IV infusions because of an infection. And that was very expensive because I was, and and I remember asking like,
Speaker: um Hi, you're coming in here three times a day to give me an injection while this family is racking up thousands and thousands of dollars worth of medical bills, but you're not monitoring their baby. Help me understand why I'm still here as opposed to another solution.
Speaker: and they were like, well, I mean, you could go home with home health. And i remember thinking, yeah that seems like a relatively good plan. So I called my parents and I was like, considering my husband and three kids are at home. And meanwhile, my intended mom's trying to figure out how her mom can come up and help keep my kids because I'm sitting in the hospital. And I was like, if they're not doing like,
Speaker: are you guys comfortable with me leaving the hospital and home health coming And they were like, yeah, that seems reasonable. That doesn't mean they weren't scared on the back end. It doesn't mean that there what wasn't some loss. it doesn't It doesn't mean any of those things. But I also believe she was looking at that scenario and saying,
Speaker: How would she handle it too if she was pregnant and there were three kids at home? I think it's it is coming together in the decisions that you're making.
Speaker: and I'm pretty confident our contract did not outline any of, I mean, well, I remember like one of the biggest things they were thinking about me having a C-section at 26 weeks, once we were past viability.
Speaker: Well, my contract stated that I would deliver in Dallas, but me personally, I was like, that sounds awful for me to deliver in Dallas and then them to be in Dallas when they lived in Houston for,
Speaker: Weeks and weeks and weeks with zero support system. I mean, i get to go home in four days. Like, so what did we do? I called her and I said, hey, we need some OB recommendations in Houston. Like I am going to have a C-section. i would want to know who that is. And like, we started doing the research. The contract didn't outline if I had a scheduled C-section at 26 weeks, would I still deliver at the hospital that I had planned to deliver at It was a human decision that if I could, if if there was no risk for me driving four hours to Houston, maybe, just maybe, that would be a better way for their child to enter this world and to have the best support that they could have.
Speaker: Thankfully, we got to carry until 39 weeks and I delivered and all was well. But, you know, the contract didn't dictate those things. It was humans. It was a human connection. it was communication. It was considering.
Speaker: everyone and every bit of the story rather than defaulting to this is mine and this is yours, but rather like we are in this journey and process together. And what does it mean for us to look at my responsibility to bring this child into this world and a happy, healthy as setting as much as possible and to allow them to get to be a parent and love and care for their child in the safest, simplest way possible. um
Speaker: And having an agency even help navigate that can also be really helpful as well. Well, again, what a beautiful example of exactly to your point. The contract was, as Crystal said, like the bare minimum, the just the lowest standard.
Speaker: And you guys had built and established a relationship and trust with one another beyond just Katie's carrying my baby and you know I'm holding up the financial end of the bargain, say intended parents. like You guys hadn't had established trust as humans. Where it was asking, how can I make you know a really crummy situation maybe just a little bit better for the other person?
Speaker: What can we do beyond the bare minimum, beyond what is outlined in a contract, beyond what, you know, maybe we even talked about because yeah, not every situation is gonna, that might happen during pregnancy is going to come up, but dang it as an agency, at least us, we do our very best to try and have those conversations early. Yeah. And I think, I like to think it goes without saying, but At least at our agency, the women that we get to walk alongside in this journey, they do genuinely come from a place of we are a team. We're doing this together. This is not just about money and finances. like
Speaker: That is helpful, most certainly. i just, like, there are inconvenient. that It's uncomfortable. I wasn't sick with any of my pregnancies. By golly, I was with my surrogacy journey. Have no idea why. It was another C-section. So compensation is is good. And think compensation also helps to level the playing field a little bit. um A surrogate is paid for her time and energy and effort in this process.
Speaker: A surrogate can never be compensated for the gift and joy that that tiny human being added to a family is. Like that's not, that that that's not possible. So that is why compensation is just looking at where does somebody live? What type of procedures are they going to have? How uncomfortable is this going to be? Yeah, she is compensated a little bit more if she carries twins. Like you carry twins. That's a whole lot more work than carrying a single little one.
Speaker: So I think that's when, I think when our world can say like, well, certain debts are being compensated. It's like, well, they're not lining up to do it. They're definitely not lining up to do it for free because it is an investment. It changes your bodies. It changes your hormones. um it's It's time away from family. It's all of those things. And I don't think it makes the heart of a GC any less um because she's being compensated for her time in the process. I mean, I remember I went to visit my intended parents. um It was like two years later. I mean, we saw each other, but we happened to go out to dinner and they're like trying to pick up the tab for our family of five.
Speaker: And I was like, no, no, no. Like we've, we've got our own dinner. And they were no, you carried and I'm like, ni and no, no, no, no. Like that's done. We are friends. We are like, you guys are not forever indebted to us. I think, you know, again, when we are in situations where we are needing to respect the surrogate and where she is coming from and, you know, that body autonomy, as well as advocating for intended parents and how they are feeling and that tension,
Speaker: How do we now, like, what is the best way to navigate that? What does ethical support look like in that moment?
Speaker: I think there's a lot of value in just acknowledging what is true. Sometimes what is true is everybody sitting this table is not going to get what they want. This is not the situation you signed up for. This is not the situation they signed up for.
Speaker: But this is the situation we're at. And sometimes I think as an agency, our role is to name that. To name like, we're not going to make everybody happy. um We are not on the side of one or the other.
Speaker: If anybody, we're on the side of the baby. were you baby ah um But the other side of of ethical support is bringing in support when we need it. There's been a number of situations where families and surrogates, you know, came to a disagreement or had a hard diagnosis and they were not on the same page. And as an agency, we absolutely can say, hope that works out and leave them to figure it out themselves. I, I don't think that is ethical surrogacy. I think that is, um, business and we are in, we are in the business of ethical surrogacy on our side. What,
Speaker: appears to me to be more ethical is bringing in the support that all parties need. And sometimes that means bringing in a mental health practitioner to host a round table to get everybody talking to each other again.
Speaker: Sometimes that means that we're having conversations with the mental health practitioner and the attorney and the doctors and bringing everybody back to the table and trying to show up with as much information as we can to empower decision making. But it That is also a sticky, uncomfortable place to be. It would be much easier to say, you guys figure it out, duke it out in court, stick to the contract, the lowest common denominator for how we treat each other. But we have chosen in a number of of spaces and it makes me really, really proud to say, no, that's not the story we want for this baby. Let's get everybody back to the table with some expert support at at the table with them to figure this out together. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And again, I want to name it because I think it's really important. There is so much value in, again, prior to ah a transfer and any type of situation that intended parents and surrogates be both legally represented separately.
Speaker: Independent counsel for everyone. And there is so much value in that psychological evaluation because just because you say that you are ready to be a parent and just because you physically qualify to be a surrogate does not mean that you are maybe emotionally ready to go on this type of journey yet.
Speaker: And there is just so much value in slowing it down and making sure that we just have that good base before we move forward. Because as much as we you know want everything to work out so beautifully. And I just want to say the the baby roomie case is very much an outlier.
Speaker: This is not typical surrogacy. There are so many journeys that do not get headlines that go so smoothly or they have minor bumps that have amazing coordinators that you know guide them through those things.
Speaker: But you have to have that good base either way, either way. For intended parents or surrogates listening and wondering, how do I know i am entering into this journey with in an ethical and supported way?
Speaker: What should they be looking for from the professionals guiding them? And what should do we want them to know as they move forward?
Speaker: I think there's two parts of that. First is like the easy checkboxes and we've cut covered a few of those things. you know Does an agency require independent legal counsel that is not within their agency?
Speaker: Do they use third party escrow so you know funds are safe and secure? And funds are being distributed based on the contract, but also that there are enough funds in that account to go through this journey and that those funds won't walk off at some point. You know, do they work and include qualified mental health professionals through the journey in surrogacy?
Speaker: There should be surrogates and in appearance and they should be talking together. There should be all three parts of those. And ideally with the same professional. So that mental health professional is getting a full picture and dynamic. um Does an agency have clear standards on how they pre-screen carriers? Carriers will still go to a fertility clinic. There are still medical screenings to be done, but, but do they have clear guidelines on what it looks like to clear? Do they follow ASRM guidelines? Do they, um Do the work to get clearance for your with your fertility clinic first. Possibly is an MFM involved if it needs to be. All of those things are important. And I think the last one of a checkbox would be fee structure.
Speaker: I would give pause to any agency that requires a large amount of money up front with the promise of being on a list or being matched when it's your turn.
Speaker: There's just, there ends up being pressure. Crystal talked about that beforehand. There's pressure to give you a match when maybe that isn't going to end the same way.
Speaker: it's It's tying up your precious finances in this process. But I think outside of the checkboxes, there's more subtle things that you can connect on when you talk to a team. You know, does an agency encourage you to ask questions or are they just on what the next plans are? Um, are they willing to tell you what could go wrong or what are the things that you're maybe not thinking about, or is it just cupcakes and rainbows? Um, do you feel pressure to take a match? Are you being, Oh, this will be the only GC you could ever match with. That to me would be something of a red flag. Um, are they willing to tell you no when it's necessary?
Speaker: I think sometimes someone willing to tell you no or not yet, or i don't think this is going to work is a true um guiding principle to how are they going to care for you later? Because if they can't tell you no prior to, before money, before match, before anything, what's going to happen when there is something more difficult to navigate?
Speaker: And just like... What is your overall feel when you when you talk to that agency? Do you feel like they genuinely care? Do you feel like they're in this and on team baby, as we like to call it? Or do you feel like you're just one more person, one more person on that match? Hey, you're 46th on the list. We'll let you know. um Did you send your money? Like there are things like contracts have to be signed. Funds have to be sent. Sure. my end we We actually have a very black and white process when it comes to getting to know our intended parents, um which I guess I would say is a bare minimum because we'll talk to intended parents 500 times, but we do have certain things that we do require because we want to make sure that we've done our due diligence. But, you know, do you feel like there's room for them to get to know you and what you're looking for? Or do you feel like
Speaker: oh, I'm just one more intimate parent or even one more surrogate that's getting matched in their program. I would agree. And I would say there's something to be said for experience that we are all going to make mistakes in new territory when it is the first time an agency has faced that kind of diagnosis, that kind of conflict, that kind of disagreement, that kind of legal situation. There's just so much more room for error. And it's okay to ask, hey, how long have you guys been doing this?
Speaker: How many cases do you run a year? How many intended parents have you served? How many babies have been born? Like, it's okay to ask that question. This is a guided journey and you want a guide who's been there for a long time. The other um like uncomfortable question i would ask if I were doing this again and searching for an agency again, um i would ask about things like financial entanglements.
Speaker: And Katie really, you hinted at this when you said we don't have in-house attorneys, third party escrow. But really the question you're asking as an intended parent is the recommendation recommendations that you are making to me as an agency, are you being compensated for those?
Speaker: Are you being compensated when you tell me this is the mental health provider you use? This is the escrow company you use. This is the legal team that you use. This is the insurance company you use. Is there any back and forth that is causing you to recommend somebody to me that is not best for me, or are you really on team me?
Speaker: That makes a huge difference in the level of trust you have with the agency who ultimately is going to introduce you to a GC and you want to have trust with her as well. Well, again, thank you both so much. It is...
Speaker: so sad that a big, huge headline case is kind of the thing that highlights surrogacy. And I love that we are able to just take the time to really discuss the what surrogacy is actually all about and how it can be done so well and the beauty of this journey. um And so I, again, i thank you both for just having this conversation and all the work that we do for our clients, all of the work that has been done as this industry has evolved and ever evolves. um And so, yes, again, thank you so much for just
Speaker: showing how this can be done well and that things like this are not the norm.
