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Metallica: The Speed/Thrash Years
29 Plays1 year ago
Daria and Laz go deep into the first four Metallica albums - discussing and identifying what makes each one so special and how each has impacted, not only Metallica, but Metal itself!
You can also watch us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7mfJVCp_TzbPNZNMMemJuw
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Transcript
Introduction to Metallica's Speed and Thrash Era
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Minds of Metal. It's 5 p.m. on the Wednesday, the 23rd of August. That means that we're live and that means that we're talking about Metallica today. And specifically, we're talking about speed and thrash era.
00:00:30
Speaker
AKA first four albums. That's right. Metallica's first four, the most famous albums of their career because it is the albums that got them known and got them to where they are now mythologically.
Impact of Early Metallica Albums on Thrash Metal
00:00:45
Speaker
You know, everyone associates them with Master of Puppets album that 1986, the Metallica at their peak, a lot of people would say. So yeah, well, that's what we're going to talk about today. And we will look at how they impacted metal, what they did for Metallica.
00:00:58
Speaker
and how in general they shaped, you know, because they also shaped the confines of thrash. So say hello to us wherever you're watching from, you're on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, give us a wave, say hi. And as usual, any questions or comments you have whilst we're talking, throw them in. We're going to talk about an album and then get some comments, then go to another album and do the comments. So, you know, we'll try and get to you if you have anything to say. Should we go? Yeah. Excellent. Right. Go on. Okay. You lead it. So the first
Deep Dive into 'Kill 'Em All'
00:01:28
Speaker
album is 1983's Kill them all. That's right. And it's just fast isn't it? It's speedy, it's very raw I still, you know, we saw this quite a raw album but what a statement to make. Yeah now I remember when I was, when I went to see, who was that I saw at the O2 Arena, it might have been Iron Maiden at the O2 Arena all the way years and years ago, maybe 10 years ago or so,
00:01:54
Speaker
And the O2 Arena had this special thing going on where they had, along the walkway, it actually might still be there, along the walkway to the front entrance, they had this timeline of music. And I was just like, this is so cool, because I'm really into the genealogy of different genres and watching how music progresses.
00:02:14
Speaker
And I remember seeing at one point, 1983, Metallica invents Speed Metal. And at that point, I knew what metal was. I kind of heard of things like thrash and death, but I didn't know who they were and what they were. And I thought, Speed Metal? I was like, that's interesting. And so then that's when my world of Metallica opened up, because from then on, I went on and listened to all the albums. And then the first album I listened to, we'll get to later in this episode. But yeah, Speed Metal.
Defining Speed vs. Thrash Metal
00:02:43
Speaker
now speed metal is interesting because it's not fresh metal
00:02:49
Speaker
and it's also not glam metal and it kind of sits in the middle because it's got this, it's got this, it's got elements of punk in there. You know, if you look at, let's look at the song. So, you know, you've got the song hit the lights and that track, when you get, think about when you get to the chorus, you go hit the lights, hit the lights, you know, it's very,
00:03:13
Speaker
I'd say it's quite accessible as a chorus because you have to understand that what was happening at this time as well is that in 1983, so if you can hear a little whirring we've got the fan on because it is quite hot here today. Tell us if it's annoying though, like tell us if it's too much. Yeah but we're not going to turn it off.
00:03:36
Speaker
1983, in LA a big thing is happening, a band called Motley Crew are putting their makeup on, doing their hair and getting ready to go and perform their stadium accessible metal shows and this is what Glam is and what Glam became.
Glam Metal vs. Thrash Metal
00:03:51
Speaker
So you've got musical elements in there. And the thing about Thrash is that Thrash tried to distance itself from glam. It did not like the look of it. People were not happy with glam. Let's say, hold on, you're telling us these bands is what's representing metal? I don't think so. And that's where you get bands like Metallica for me and putting a heavier stamp on things. But there is undoubtedly a glam influence in there.
00:04:18
Speaker
okay do you say that yeah i do but i also think that the whole kilo mall
00:04:27
Speaker
It has like this similar vibe throughout, like it's the same vibe throughout. And this is why maybe I see punk in it as well. Because I think punk is quite just same-ish, isn't it? It's not, there isn't much variety going on. And this is actually partially like thrash and like glam they don't get on because thrash is a lot more intricate, instrumentally. And there's punkism. So yeah, what was I saying? Why was I saying that? Because
00:04:55
Speaker
I was just going to tell you that, you know, I noticed. But tell me if it's wrong, because this is just my perception of it. I don't think they play a lot of Kilimol songs live. And I think maybe that's because they have a similar vibe to it throughout the whole album. So what do you mean? Why wouldn't they play Kilimol songs? Just because they're quite similar, I'd say.
00:05:19
Speaker
Not all of them, but some of them. They often play Seek and Destroy or Hit the Lights. Yeah, this is exactly what I said. Hit the Lights and Seek and Destroy are pretty much the only songs we play like from that album. Well, when we saw them two months ago, they played Whiplash, which is actually one I haven't heard in a while. And they also saw this tour. They've been adding in a few more. They've added in Mo to Breath as well.
00:05:41
Speaker
But the interesting thing you're mentioning about punk, how punk is essential to thrash because it's when you got the speed and aggression from punk creeping in and meeting traditional metal and arguably new wave of bridge heavy metal, the thrash began to take shape. So basically, thrash is punk plus new wave of bridge heavy metal plus extreme metal.
00:06:04
Speaker
And that's important because you've got bands playing as fast as Metallica were playing in the early 80s.
Influences on Metallica's Early Sound
00:06:11
Speaker
Iron Maiden were playing some fast songs. You've got bands like Diamond Head, Angel Witch, all playing some speedy stuff. But then you've got the important factor, which is extreme metal. Now, extreme metal, two bands to go and check out, Venom and Merciful Fate. And what these bands did is, it's in the name, is they took all the extremes of metal.
00:06:31
Speaker
they play really fast stuff with really high screamy vocals with really twiddly guitar solos really heavy sludgy doomy riffs at some point as well you know depending on the song so this is important because what extreme metal did
00:06:46
Speaker
is it really incorporated the satanic theme of heavy metal. The album cover of Venom's album Black Metal literally has the pentagram of the goat and Lucifer and the devil and all that stuff. And that is where the darkness of thrash comes from. Because you could say punk plus new wave of British heavy metal plus traditional metal equals a band like Iron Maiden.
00:07:13
Speaker
or a band like Merciful Fate, but the darkness, you know, think about Slayer's album covers and the violence they put through in their music and the lyrics, that comes from extreme metal. And without extreme metal, you don't get flash because it needed that darkness, it needed that violence, it needed that dissonance in some of the riffs and everything.
Unique Elements of 'Kill 'Em All'
00:07:35
Speaker
So all in all, I think you have to say that Kill'em All is a different sounding album to the rest of Metallica's stuff. I feel it's too pleasant in places. You think it's pleasant? I do, I think... That's so cool, like I love what you call pleasant. Jump in the Fire, the first two minutes could easily be a glam metal band.
00:07:59
Speaker
Whereas songs like Phantom Lord, so I disagree with you, I think there is quite a lot of variety on Kill'em All. It's packaged the same, it's packaged the same, the production doesn't change, the overall attitude doesn't change, but if you go deep into the songs, the four horsemen have so much thrash rhythms in there like...
00:08:22
Speaker
something like that, which Jumping the Fire doesn't. Jumping the Fire has some glammy guitar riffs, more chords as opposed to individual notes. So you're going a bit more in depth, like into the music, into the composition. What I usually do is I sort of try to analyse it as a whole product. For sure, and that's what an album is.
00:08:47
Speaker
That's exactly what an album is. And you know what, you know why that is? Because I've listened to obviously other metallic stuff and there's something to compare it with. And this is why you just start comparing. And yeah, and as we're going to go to the subsequent three albums, each of those albums have a variety of different styles of songs.
00:09:05
Speaker
whereas Killamore you are right is just speed metal but even within the speed I feel like I can hear you know like I said the four horseman's way more thrashy and maiden like you know you've got the middle eastern scales and harmonies coming in there whereas hit the lights I just think it's glammy it's punky it's bouncy jump in the fire I really said phantom lord you've got screaming at the end Hetfield is literally screaming
00:09:28
Speaker
You know what I liked in that song? I really liked the instrumental breakdowns. I thought that was beautiful. And that just shows how much they liked the composition side of it from the start. And that continues throughout the whole speed and fresh era, I think as well. So yeah, now I get what you're saying also as well. What do you think about the bass track?
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, Anesthesia Pulling Teeth by Cliff Byrne. It's really cool and really interesting because you have bands already doing instrumental stuff. You've got Iron Maiden in their first two albums. They all had instrumentals. Ides of March is one and I think Transylvania is the other. So you've got bands doing this, but to do something that focuses entirely on bass is quite unusual.
00:10:14
Speaker
And I think we're going to, well, I want to come back to bass towards the end because Cliff Burton has played a huge part in Metallica's Rise and in some of the writing of their songs. So we'll get there at the end. But what I wanted to say about Kill'em All, one more point from me, is that it really reminds me of early Iron Maiden. But with Iron Maiden, in the albums Iron Maiden and Kill'em All, it is obvious that Paul Diano is like a punk singer.
00:10:43
Speaker
He's like, I'm a man, you can tangle down, you know, running from habit. It's the phrasing. And this is Tom with the way he's singing, you know, the way Bruce sings, operatic. He's like, hello, baby. And Paul D'Anno is just like, you know, I'm running free. Yeah. He's just got this carelessness about him. It's an attitude. It's punky.
00:11:03
Speaker
If you take out Paul D'Anno's vocals and you put in James Hetfield's vocals from this album, I think they'd sound very similar. So I think the difference between this new wave of British heavy metal movement and speed metal in this instance is the vocals.
Themes in Speed vs. Thrash Metal
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a better thing to say. And we're going to talk about vocals more today because I have a lot to say about James' voice in general. My final part on Killamore is again just talking about speed metal. I find it agreeable and pleasant to listen to. There is no dark sense of despair or doom throughout this album.
00:11:37
Speaker
when we move on to Ride the Lightning, arguably the first riff of the album, you're there going, holy shit, this is dark, this is, my god, where do they come up with this riff? I don't have that. They're a cool thrashy rhythms, but they don't materialize into anything dark or doomy or, oh my god, this sounds evil. They just kind of stay on one level. That's not a criticism. That's not a criticism. It's just
00:12:01
Speaker
I think I mean I say I think but it is widely regarded that Killamore is the inception of thrash metal but it is undoubtedly a speed metal album. Yeah I don't like all the songs on this album but I definitely like parts of
00:12:16
Speaker
all of them, you know, just like parts of them I really enjoy. Yeah, not really much to say about it anymore. I think it's just, it's a great sort of beginning, isn't it, for them? It's a great way to start their career.
00:12:32
Speaker
but we can move on yeah i think it does what it needs to do in join look at some comments see if we've got anything yeah um i think it does what it needs to do in the sense of drawing from the past taking enough from the past to say this is where we come from but also adding new stuff in yeah those flashy rhythms the speed of it his shouting vocals adding that in and saying okay this is where we were this is where we're going so yeah hi guys hi
00:13:00
Speaker
Someone says, slayers. Of course, yeah. Hi. Hello. Hi, everyone. Hi, Facebook. Hi, Instagram. Hi, YouTube. Shall we move on? Do we have it? Yeah, sure. No, I think they're just really patient. I'll wear my glasses. I see it says, each of those I thought was a comment that it just says they're watching. So we should say that. So guys, you can't see anything.
00:13:21
Speaker
because he's not wearing glasses. So I'm going to be the one who's reading all the comments. So yeah, right. Shall we move on? Yes. Yeah. You guys feel free to tell us what you think about Killamal. Yeah. Just, just drop us a line. Let's have a look. So write the lightning.
00:13:38
Speaker
1984 so we're just a year away like that was just next year that is mad yeah okay that is mad that you can write something you know we need to go back because we need to give credit to dave mustaine yeah because we had someone on one of our reels saying oh dave mustaine wrote the first ever thrash song because the first thrash song is the four oarsmen or something that's not true i don't believe that i believe you know if you
00:14:04
Speaker
That's another video. You'll do a whole live shoot about Thresh one day and then you'll find out why I think he's the first Thresh song. Anyway, you cannot take away the fact that Dave Mustaine had a huge part to play in Metallica. It seems like we want to forget it. It seems like people have just kind of pushed them apart and that's because there's a long standing resentment between them.
00:14:24
Speaker
Dave Mustaine is very jealous or it looks like he's very jealous of what went on and his departure from Metallica but it has to be said he was key in writing some of those early Metallica songs. He even wrote Ride the Lightning or Fight Fire with Fire but yeah one of them.
00:14:43
Speaker
he is a big part and if Metallica are responsible through their first two albums in developing Thrash then that means Dave Mustaine also must get credit because I like Megadeth. I'm not a fan of his voice but I like Megadeth and I think they deserve their due as well but they were always like one or two years behind Metallica in the progression of Thrash and that's because I think he left the band or was fired or whatever.
00:15:08
Speaker
So yeah, props to Dave. So definitely, definitely props to Dave Mustang. So basically the next album is called Write the Lightning and as I said earlier, we're in 1984 now, which is just a year away, which completely blows my mind every time I say it. I think it's absolutely amazing to write such incredible songs. Actually about the writing, I did some research, okay? I mean, I think I knew it before but I just needed to know for sure.
00:15:33
Speaker
The main songwriters, just generally Metallica, were always James and Lars. James had Phil being the singer and the guitarist and Lars Ulrich being the drummer.
00:15:46
Speaker
And I think that is incredible as well. And I just thought that knowing all these songs for whom the bell tolls, that is a banger. That is what a song. It just blows my mind that they progressed in their songwriting so much just within the year. That's quite incredible. Yeah. Ride the Lightning is an interesting one because what it does is it really establishes what Thrash is.
00:16:16
Speaker
Because with Kill'em All, you're getting hints, like I said, through songs like No Remorse and Four Horsemen, you're getting the hints of what Flash could be. And then Right the Lightning comes along and it says, screw what Flash could be, this is what Flash is. Because straight away, it's instantly darker in terms of notes.
00:16:39
Speaker
lies in the actual notes they're playing. Because I said this on the Queen's right stream, for anyone who joined us, there is a difference. We have two words, consonants and dissonance. Consonants means two notes or played together or apart, which sound nice next to each other. You can play one and then the other and it's, okay, that's nice to hear. Dissonance is the opposite. You play two notes together or apart and it makes you all, no, no, I don't want that, no, thank you. And that's the difference. Now,
00:17:09
Speaker
In Kill'em All and in Speed Metal, things are very consonant. They move from one chord to another and you go, ah, that's quite a pleasant move. It's nice to go from there. Not the whole album, but in places. Whereas in Ride the Lightning, straight away from the first Fight Fire with Fire riff, you know, da-da-da-dun, dun, da-da-dun, really on the edge you see kind of jaws, you know, first two notes of jaws would be exactly the dissonance, the doo-dun,
00:17:36
Speaker
just really creating tension and that is what I believe shaped write the lightning and thrash okay the darkness the notes chosen the lyrical themes as well yeah yeah I'm just thinking about it yeah no you are right you are right and I think well it's still very fast and speedy still yeah okay so hold on so then in your opinion okay yeah what is the difference between speed and thrash
00:18:06
Speaker
because we keep saying that it's speedy, but then we're like, okay, this is the new thrash. So I think the thrash metal
00:18:17
Speaker
is far darker and I know that that term can be really broad but I mean darker in terms of the things I've been saying, chord progression, note choices, lyrical themes. Oh right, yeah, lyrics as well. Lyrical themes as well, vocals, you know I think that with speed metal you get high energy vocals. I kind of think if you just listen to, listen to the first verse of Seek and Destroy
00:18:44
Speaker
It's like, yeah, imagine leather, we're going to kick some ass tonight. Or is it hit the lights, whichever one. It's almost like, it's almost like the feeling you're getting from the vocals is that of glam.
00:19:02
Speaker
Not tone and timbre and sound. Can you talk about speed? I'm saying speed metal and glam metal, vocally. I feel that there is a, but I don't mean the way they sound or the tone of their voice. I mean what they're singing about. Just that one lyric from Metallica, something that we're going to kick some ass tonight, makes me think they're going to a show and they know we're going to kick some ass at this show. And glam metal was all about partying and doing this. Whereas you move on to ride the lightning.
00:19:30
Speaker
And the second song is about someone being strapped in the electric chair, ready to be executed. And that is a huge factor for me in discerning speed and thrash. Okay, so it does get darker. Yeah, that's one thing I think. What about you? That's what you think. I've always been confused about speed and thrash. Not gonna lie to you. Yeah, seriously. I have. And I was like, I have to ask him today.
00:19:58
Speaker
I mean, I've asked you before, I have asked him before, but I thought, you know, it'd be good to hear it today. And maybe, maybe someone else is having kind of the same conversations with themselves because it's very similar. It is. Musically, it's very similar. But I get you about like, about the
00:20:16
Speaker
yeah the darkness of it. Well the other thing is the complexity of the songs and the riffs and stuff you know you've got speed metal I think it's quite simple I think although it's fast you've got riffs in there that a lot of people a lot of guitarists could play whereas thrash it becomes more intricate.
00:20:32
Speaker
OK, and right, the lightning is definitely more interesting, absolutely more intricate. Speed Metal also, I go back to lyrics, Speed Metal also kind of had this broadness to it. I just mentioned partying then, but other Speed Metal lyrics, you know, include fantasy lyrics, science fiction lyrics as well, whereas Thrash takes a much more emotive and introspective view of the human soul, doing with things like death, existentialism, all that stuff. So I think it is beyond the music.
00:21:01
Speaker
I'm so surprised you're talking about the lyrics because you're not the lyric guy, really. No, I'm not. I'm not. And I don't really care for lyrics in the same sense of I prefer song to tell me a story than words. But it's important. It is. It's important because that is a discerning factor between speed metal and thrash metal. Not the only one, but a factor. Yeah.
00:21:22
Speaker
also guys i just want to say like facebook people hello hi because i just see this people on facebook on facebook and that information will be interesting for instagram and our instagram and youtube viewers on facebook if you enjoy our live stream and just what we do generally you can send us a star
00:21:42
Speaker
and we'll be very grateful if you do. That would mean a lot to us. Yeah, a new lot on YouTube and Instagram. Hit like on YouTube, get these videos, likes up on Instagram, hit those hearts or whatever. Yeah, that would mean the absolute well to us. I wish I could see what's going on. It's okay. So yeah, go on. One other thing about the difference between speed and thrash, something I forgot to mention is melody. Now, melody is very important because in speed, melody plays a crucial part in the fabric of the song. Whereas, yeah?
00:22:11
Speaker
yeah melody can be an important part in the vocals or in the lead guitar line with thrash you're putting 90 percent of the emphasis on the rhythm not the melody because thrash you want to create an intense aggressive atmosphere
00:22:27
Speaker
I was just going to say that I thought James's vocals become more and more melodic with each... In Ride the Lightning? No, not in Ride the Lightning, it must have happened.
Role of Melody and Rhythm in Metal
00:22:35
Speaker
I don't know. I just mean, I think they are, they're very different to Kill the Wild ones. Well, yeah, in this particular, we're not talking about Metallica, we're talking about Speed and Thrash. No, I don't like it either. I think you're right, it probably doesn't apply to Metallica because his vocals do change as it goes on. But yeah, Ride the Lightning, I mean, is there anything else?
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, so I thought we could talk about their love for ballads and I think that it starts with Ride the Lightning in a way because there's Fade to Black which is, I just think it's a beautiful song and they love their ballads and you know how I told you about the instrumentals as well, that sort of ties in with that also. Would you say that their love for instrumentals, not instrumentals because we had an instrument on Kilowatt
00:23:20
Speaker
Would you say that the love for ballads starts to affect in the writer line? Yes, that's where we see the introduction of the metal ballad. I think we'll talk about it more later because we're going to talk about the structure of the songs and the song listing and how it all pieces together. But we do see a very important part of metal happen where we see a band sing a song that's soft and I love and everything. Yeah. And you did mention the instrumental as well. What's your favorite song now?
00:23:48
Speaker
Ooh, Oh For Whom The Bell Tolls. I love that song. Didn't they play it live on a download? They did, I saw them, yes. It was absolutely phenomenal. I will never forget that. But look, so we've got a ballad, we've got an instrumental, we've got like a heavy riff of Oh For Whom The Bell Tolls. For instance, right, for example,
00:24:13
Speaker
So they actually, they bring a lot of variety in with this one. Yeah. Yeah. And within each of these songs, you're still, you're getting a different sound, like a different output, but they're taking the characteristics from before. If you take a look at this.
00:24:29
Speaker
Fight Fire With Fire, you've got those double bass drums pounding through nearly the whole song, which is a key figure, a key characteristic of Threshold, double bass drums. Ride the Lightning, extended song length compared to Kill Em All. Complex structures, tempo changes, dual lead guitars, playing intricate solos.
00:24:49
Speaker
uh in for whom the bell tolls double bass drums oh no fade to black in fade to black double bass drums at the end now we just said it's a ballad yeah how many people are going to put a ballad and double bass drums in the same sentence from the telegraph right here when the song gets heavier you hear him pounding on those double bass drums
00:25:04
Speaker
dual leads as well. In Creeping Death, you know, big factor of metal and as I said it's those dissonant notes working with each other or not necessarily dissonance but minor tonality. Again I'm sure a lot of you know you've got major chords and minor chords. Major chords sound happy, minor chords sound sad. Now the way you play notes on a scale and how they relate to each other can determine whether it's sounding major or minor. The Middle Eastern scale, so you know you think straight to Power Slave,
00:25:35
Speaker
you know the very arabic kind of vibe you've got that in Creeping Death and that was a factor of metal that people like um obviously called uh Dick Dale who did Mizzellou he bought that in the Lebanese scales so you've got all these little characteristics of traditional metal here
00:25:53
Speaker
packaged individually fight fire with fire is thrash ride the lightning is kind of like a it is thrashy obviously but it's got so many traditional metal characteristics i just think that's a good heavy metal song for whom the bell tolls is slow and heavy and really makes you feel the power fade to black's a ballad um cooler katuna is an instrumental creeping death is again another sort of thrashy song yeah i just find it really interesting they've they packaged it differently but they've still kept what matters are heart
00:26:21
Speaker
Now an interesting one is Trapped Under Ice, because that song I actually think is a speed metal song. You've got, it's the one song I feel like they probably wrote that in conjunction with the Kill'em All sessions, and they were like, oh we don't have room for it on Kill'em All, so let's bring it over, right, the lightning.
00:26:40
Speaker
But you can hear it because listen, it's an agreeable chorus. Listen to the chorus of Trapped Under Ice compared to the other songs. The other songs makes it feel dark, maybe it is distant, maybe it's minor. Trapped Under Ice is pleasant. When you hear it, it's nice to listen to. And I just found that really interesting, the one song that stood out for me on the album. Yeah, well maybe this is how this sort of saying that
00:27:06
Speaker
No, I don't know what they're saying, to be honest. I'm just thinking, yeah, you're probably right that maybe it's like a left turn from Kilomoles. Yeah, maybe. There you go. I think overall, it's just a much more aggressive album. The aggression is there. And I think the production is better, that's what we need to say. The production, each album they do, the production gets better and better because, well, obviously, as technology improves, so do the bands who use it.
00:27:31
Speaker
Things like the effect of the bell on for whom the bell tolls will actually put the bell in. They didn't do that stuff on Killamore. And I think that just goes more towards creating an atmosphere. Well, there's a new producer as well on Ride the Light thing. Oh really? Yeah. Ah, there you go. So there's a new producer who actually is going to produce the next two as well.
00:27:51
Speaker
Oh really, the same guy, okay. Great, well that's good to know. So yeah, maybe that played a part also. Sean's saying Rainbow Stargazer, Phrygian Scale. Yeah, yeah, uses all the scales in that short, doesn't he? That's Richie Blackmore who loves playing around with neoclassical music. And classical music is very based in scales, I mean that kind of goes that same.
00:28:18
Speaker
Richie Blackmore took influence from classical music and applied it to his hard rock with Deep Purple and his heavy metal with Rainbow. So in his music, especially like Stargazer as Sean said, you've got all kinds of scales that he's playing around and messing around with just to create this tension. And it has an Arabic, a Lebanese, a Middle Eastern feel to it.
00:28:40
Speaker
but it's a proper scale and it really in this western society where we love hearing major chords, you know just a C major chord or something, adding something unusual to that really kind of diluted
Middle Eastern Scales in Metal
00:28:52
Speaker
and or not diluted it expanded the range of what guitarists could do and what scales they can use. As we said on the Queen's Rite episode
00:29:00
Speaker
That was the moment, you know, 76 onwards is where metal started to get more progressive and it's because of people like Richie Blackmore progressing it, saying, no, let's use more than just the minor scale. Let's use this Middle Eastern scale and we'll do that.
00:29:14
Speaker
Yeah, and we did talk about it in our rainbow episode. It's up on YouTube. So if you guys haven't seen it after this stream, go ahead and check it out or just listen to us as a podcast on Spotify. It's there as well. Right. I suggest we move to Master of Puppets unless you have anything else about Ride the Lightning.
00:29:34
Speaker
I listened to Ride the Lining yesterday for the first time in a while, and I enjoyed it a lot more than I ever remember enjoying it. And I always loved it, but the other two, I preferred more. But listening to it yesterday was like, oh, this is...
00:29:48
Speaker
This is really good. They're all good. They're all good. Much closer in quality. So I've got Justice and Puppets up here. I've got Lightning here and I've got Killamall down here. But yesterday Lightning kind of like roasted itself up. And Killamall to be fair. I listened to that yesterday and I enjoyed it a lot more. So they both kind of shot up in my estimations. But other than that, I've got nothing else but money. Okay. I should just move on to Master of Puppets. I mean, everyone wants to hear about Master of Puppets. That's the one. So 1986, a couple of years now.
00:30:17
Speaker
Yeah and Thrash is booming at this point because in 1984 you had Metallica. Who was it? Metallica and a band called Raven played in a club in New York that was a mainstream club and they cite that as the moment that Thrash blossomed because
00:30:41
Speaker
finally it moved out from being underground and it had now come literally it's from underground up top to a New York club and so from then on thrash was a thing i don't know if it was i don't know if the term was used in 1984 with thrash band or whatever but thrash looking back on historically was a thing
Significance of 'Master of Puppets'
00:31:01
Speaker
Now, the important thing is to know as well, Master of Puppets is the definitive heavy metal album. I think a lot of people would say it's the best heavy metal album ever. But it was part of a group of albums released in 1986 that just did so much for metal and so much for thrash.
00:31:21
Speaker
Now in the 80s, alongside this, you have got those bands like Motley Crue and Def Leppard all doing their thing. Judas Priest are still doing their thing. Iron Maiden have gone a bit more progressive. But Thrash in its own right was making its own inroads into the metal development. So I just want to name these albums because they're so important. And if you love Master of Puppets, you should listen to all of these albums because they all came out in the same year and they all
00:31:50
Speaker
played a huge part in the development of Flash. So you've got Amphraxes Among the Living, Megadeth's Peace Cells But Who's Buying, Sepulturas Beneath the Remains, Metallica's Master of Puppets and arguably the greatest Flash album ever, Slayer's Reign in Blood.
00:32:06
Speaker
Now this course was the five quintology. This quintology of albums really just did a huge amount for Thrash, very important. And I like that these bands did it together. I'm not saying they're all chummy and they're all best friends, but you've got this movement happening. It's not one band just saying, okay, let's push the boundaries. It's all of them moving up. And you've literally got Thrash defined in those five albums. Yeah.
00:32:32
Speaker
I think it's a very different album to the previous two for multiple reasons. What do you think they are? I think the reasons are A, the songs become longer.
00:32:44
Speaker
OK, so longer songs, which I actually quite enjoy. There's enough variety within the song. Absolutely. I think they reach another level with the complexity of songwriting. I think it gets even better and it really comes through with all the instrumental sections, which children talk about. But I think it's still, it's like solidifying their thrash sound. It's very, very important in that way. But yeah.
00:33:14
Speaker
What do you think about Master of Puppets? Master of Puppets, arguably the greatest metal album ever really is because it has everything. You've got the initial onslaught of thrash with battery. You've got one of metal's greatest well-known songs in Master of Puppets which also we all seem to forget is like eight minutes long. When you think of a staple heavy metal song
00:33:42
Speaker
the one that one that even a casual audience would know you think satin to sound man what's that five minutes maybe you put raining blood by slayer in there that's only four minutes whatever but to actually have
00:33:56
Speaker
an eight-minute monster of a song that does so much. Because this is where you see, as you said, the changes within the song going down to that section where the clean guitar picks up and those jewel leads. We all love that part. This is the stuff that we weren't seeing from Thrash. Go listen to Rain in Blood, amazing album, arguably a 10 out of 10 album, but there's nothing except Thrash on there.
00:34:24
Speaker
And I suppose that's great for Thrash. But that's exactly what they wanted. Exactly. Whereas Metallica is saying again, and we've said this for the previous two albums and we're going to say it for the next one as well, Metallica always seemed like they were pushing the boundaries and trying to say, what can we do next? What are we going to do this? It's going to take us a step above the rest. And if I'm telling you, if
00:34:44
Speaker
Beneath the Remains, Rain and Blood, Peace Cells, if they're all 8 and 9 out of 10 albums, Master of Puppets is a 10 out of 10, because it is just above those. I love Rain and Blood, I love it, but Master of Puppets just for the quality sits above it.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, there's just a lot said by Master of Puppets. It's definitely my favorite. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely love it. I love this album. I think it's because of parts that, like, instrumental parts in Master of Puppets, for example, in the song, that I really enjoy it because it's just, it's just, it's music to my ears, you know, it's just so beautiful to listen to. And I think this is where
00:35:28
Speaker
we can really see that development of this come through. You know, what you're saying, what else can we do to be different, to be just a bit above everyone else? And I think this is, you know, it's definitely the album for that. I also really love James' vocals on this album. I think they become more melodic.
00:35:50
Speaker
There's definitely more melodies. There's still grit and rhythmic phrasing. Absolutely that hasn't changed, but it's definitely monotic. There's more emotion as well. I feel like I hear that in Ride the Lining. His voice was kind of, it just kind of stayed on a level, especially in songs like Fight Fire with Fire and Ride the Lining. Like great vocals and energy in them is why I'm not saying they're not energetic. I'm just saying that they
00:36:15
Speaker
stay on one mark, whereas if you think of a song like, well, any of these, I mean, Battery, Thing That Should Not Be, all of those, his vocals and what he does with them and the journey he takes you on. Forget the song, just his vocals take on the journey. Sanitarium. Sanitarium as well, yeah. It's a great album.
00:36:35
Speaker
you've got some staple thrash metal in there and that's why this is a fantastic thrash metal album because there's, you know, you can argue Master of Puppets, Thing That Should Not Be, Orion even, and not thrash songs.
00:36:51
Speaker
I'd say the same for Master of Puppets. Master of Puppets is known as like the greatest thrash song of all time but I don't again hindsight's a wonderful thing in 1986 this was probably one of the fastest heaviest songs people had heard and so of course it was thrash but looking back now it's got so many characteristics of it's got so many characteristics of traditional metal it's got the jewel lead guitars it's got the um
00:37:18
Speaker
It's got the jewelry guitars, it's got the thrashy heavy riffs, it's got the melodic vocals, it's got a great guitar solo as well. I just feel that it could be called like the greatest metal song of all time, not thrash metal, metal.
Innovation in Metallica's Music
00:37:33
Speaker
That's quite big. Well, it has enough of everything else to draw it away from thrash. But back to my point, songs like Disposable Heroes, Leper Messiah and Damaging,
00:37:45
Speaker
prove that this is a thrash album because like we said you've got those other five songs that all do their part and do ballad the longest song the thrash song like this those three are like okay well if you thought we were doing something different like a ballad in um welcome home or an instrument with a ryan think again because we're a thrash band here's lekker messiah you like the instrumental a ryan well we're still a thrash band here's damage ink and that's what i think is so good about the album is that they've the new stuff they've done
00:38:15
Speaker
the stuff they're pushing the boundaries on, other bands would then fill out with literally songs we call filler songs, which is songs you write, okay, well, two more songs, all right, let's just write anything. Metallica wrote some great thrash songs. Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. You said to me that you think Damaging is the perfect thrash song.
00:38:37
Speaker
Yeah, I do. Why do you think it's the perfect thrash song? Is there like a particular reason for it? I love all the riffs. All the riffs work so well. You've got the riffs that take you, the bulk of the song. But then on top of that, you've got a chorus which leaves you feeling really dark, really despairing. The choice of notes, like I said, you're hearing minor chords or minor tonalities or
00:39:04
Speaker
chords working with each other to present a minor or a dark sound. And then there's a riff, you know, they change it up with the bridge. It changes tempo, but it never changes speed. The feel changes because Lars Ulrich changes his drumming, but the speed of the rhythm guitar actually stays, you know, in terms of the intricacy of the riff. And it's short, sorry, it's short.
00:39:32
Speaker
As much as I love batteries, it's quite, it's like six and a half minutes, isn't it? And they're all of them, I think. They're all quite long. You know, you said that. Batteries, five and a half minutes. Disposables, eight minutes. Lepers, six minutes. Damaged five minutes as well. So it's not like ultimately shorter than the others. But I think, yeah, damaging is a, yeah, the perfect question from Metallica.
00:39:53
Speaker
Just for me, this is the perfect album. It's got great riffs, melodies, deep lyrics, my essay. There's quite deep lyrics on this album and vocals, and it's just the perfect combination for me. Very dark, very introspective, the lyrics.
00:40:12
Speaker
quite a bit if I'm not mistaken about, I don't actually say that in case I'm wrong, but it was venturing more into, you know, like I said, Venom and Merciful Fate were talking quite a lot about Satan. Slayer, you've got them doing their part about
00:40:27
Speaker
gore and violence and you know the song angel of death is about one of the nazi generals who performed experiments during the holocaust and slayer stuck with that they loved that violence that gore that serial killer stuff whereas another thing metallic progressed on was the lyrics they kind of moved away from okay let's talk about serial killers and violence let's talk about human emotions yeah
00:40:52
Speaker
Let's talk about sanitariums. I think this is what really appealed to the audience. People started listening to them more as well. Listening to what he's saying, the message of the song. I really love it and do you know that really comes across and he's singing.
00:41:09
Speaker
the emotion he really thinks about what he's singing about like you can tell you know you can really tell well we've got a comment saying for me the puppets makes me think that Metallica started really hitting their stride it was like they had really matured through the process of the first two albums yeah who said that
00:41:26
Speaker
Sean. Yeah, that's absolutely right, Sean. They've arrived at a place, you can hear them tinkering with bits in Ride the Lightning. Like I said, the song Ride the Lightning has got some really great julied guitar stuff, some great instrumentation, some great tempo changes and you know taking on this journey, but it kind of only really stuck with that.
00:41:47
Speaker
it didn't ever push it and with Mutter of Puppets they pushed it and then they got to a place where they were like, fuck yeah, this is metal. And for 1986, there is no better metal album. No. There is none. No. I suggest we move on to 1988. Sure. And I'm leaving this one. Please. Because, surprise, surprise, this is my favourite album of all
Praise for 'And Justice For All'
00:42:11
Speaker
time.
00:42:11
Speaker
Wow. Metallica's and Justice For All is my favorite album of all time and I will die on the hill that it is the best Metallica album of all time as well. There you go, said it. And for those who follow me on Instagram, my username is lazunleashed because sometimes I unleash statements like this to trouble out
00:42:33
Speaker
Yeah, I often have a different view on things and this is the big one. Yeah, and let's tell people something, okay? That you're a bass player and you love Injustice for All the Best. Yeah, that's like an oxymoron, isn't it? That's insane. It's like a bass player shouldn't like Injustice for All because there's no bass in it. Yeah, I'm sure we'll come back to it. So, Injustice for All, I think it's even more complex
00:42:57
Speaker
Okay, even more complex songwriting, even more complex guitar parts. So what do you think? Why do you love it so much? So this is the important part of looking back on this stuff and looking at where it sits in the history and the evolution and the genealogy of metal.
00:43:22
Speaker
Oh okay, so you go this deep. I do go this deep because what Metallica have done for Thrash is so hugely important. And this is how I see it. I'll lay it on the line now. Kill'em All is basically the inception of Thrash. It's not a Thrash album, but it is where Thrash began, arguably. Ride the Lightning established Thrash and said, right, now we know what Thrash sounds like. This is Thrash.
00:43:50
Speaker
Master of Puppets then perfected Thrash. And that's a big statement because the same year you've got, and I'm, what's the word, I'm being hypocritical now because I think the perfect Thrash album is Slayer's Rain and Blood, but for everything we just said about Master of Puppets, they took
00:44:11
Speaker
everything good about thrash metal and metal that had come in the decades before and molded it into one with a thrash bass, B-A-S-E. That's why I think it's the perfect thrash album. Okay. Because it is a thrash album but it features, Rain in Blood is a perfect thrash album because it is just thrash.
00:44:31
Speaker
Master of Puppets is also a perfect thrash album because it is a lot of thrash with lots of old metal characteristics as well. Wow. See what I'm saying? Now and Justice For All is perfect thrash with progressive elements in there and what we mean by progressive elements is we mean even longer songs, even longer songs
00:44:57
Speaker
You know, Ride the Lightning six and a half minutes, Master of Puppets is eight minutes, and Justice for All is nine and a half minutes. I'm talking about the tracks individually.
00:45:05
Speaker
Longer songs, time signature changes. So this is instead of just, you know, I don't want to blanket master puppets and say it was all in 4-4. But for those, you know, time signature is counting the beats in the bar. So most Western music is in 4-4. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. But you can change things up. And you know, it even works in metal. I'm going to say Western music like it's pop, but you know, a lot of metal is in 4-4 as well. Yeah. Now,
00:45:32
Speaker
Progressing stuff is adding unusual elements and sort of pushing the boundaries of what is normal. And in And Justice for All, we get time signature changes. I'm not going to pretend I know what they are. But for example, a time signature change going from 4-4 to 7-8 would do something else. I'll do 7-4. So 4-4 to 7-4 would be 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 1, 2, 3, 4.
00:45:59
Speaker
And it makes you unsteady because there's no, there's no consistency. There's no, you know, with the 4-4, you know where you beat ones coming in, you know where it's going to come back, you know how you're feeling. But when you throw in an odd time signature and mess about, then it really throws the listener off. So you've got all of that stuff. Longer songs, odd time signatures, a lot of tempo changes, and I feel it is just executed perfectly.
00:46:28
Speaker
There is not one moment on that album where I think, okay, they've tried to be too clever here, or are they just stuck in a time signature change for the sake of it? And there's no special effects or no special guitar-ing they do where you think, well, now they're just showing off because they're trying to be a bit proggy. I think that album is Metal Perfection, and I won't have it any other way. There you go. That's very nice. I'll Die on That Hill. And Justice for All is the greatest metal album of all time.
00:46:58
Speaker
and the best Metallica album of all time. That's very nice. That first comment is quite a big statement. I know. I know. I'm just thinking. I'll stick with it. I'll darn that hill. I don't care. Well, look, what I really enjoy about this album is the lyrics. I love how much deeper, and I mean, we said Master of Puppets was deep. Yeah. And this is even deeper than that. It's proper like social and political issues.
00:47:24
Speaker
And all that really gets me, like one really gets me every time, literally every time. And their download forms, I don't think I'll ever forget that. As soon as I say it, it's right here in front of me. It just hit me so much.
00:47:44
Speaker
And it's amazing how it's been so many years since that album came out. And they've performed it so many times, that song in particular, for example. And the emotion is still there. It's as raw and it's as real as 30 years ago. And that's, I appreciate that as a fan. I do, that they don't get bored, let's say, of playing their music. And I think that's really important.
00:48:15
Speaker
So we have Sloboden says hello metal people. Hi. Hi Sloboden. This guy does all the reels you see. You watch our reels and how good they look. This Sloboden guy, he does them all. So if you need a reel doing for your page or channel, check him out. He has some Sloboden. Any other comments?
00:48:33
Speaker
I started listening to Metallica in 89 so Just as in Puppets were the first albums I listened to that school only going back to the first albums later hearing them in that order made the first album sound much less sophisticated yeah I can imagine being there at that time it would have been like whoa what's this I'd have loved to have just
00:48:53
Speaker
been a Mel fan in the 80s and to have followed Metallica's progression and just seeing how different things, how it evolved with every couple of years are.
00:49:04
Speaker
There's also Sean who agrees with the answers. Justice is his favourite album. And a lot of Metallica fans do. I've been on the Metallica subreddit enough to know that when someone puts out, when someone puts a question like, what's the best Metallica album, you're going to have a split. It's either Master or Justice. You might have five percent of people who say Ride the Lightning, which is fair. But other than that, it's going to be Justice or Master.
00:49:28
Speaker
okay the other yeah go on no you go no i was going to say the other thing about injustice for all is i feel there is just such a
Songwriting Evolution in Metallica
00:49:37
Speaker
a unity between all of the songs okay i feel like although right what am i trying to say with master puppets it feels like you are going from one song to another song
00:49:55
Speaker
and it feels like there are two different songs, which is fine. 90% of albums are like that. Now at the same time, I'm not saying Anjustice for All is like Dark Side of the Moon, where the songs literally flow into one another and you can miss it. You know, if you don't look at your Spotify for it to move to the next song, then you'll miss it. There is just a character... I really don't know how to explain, I should have thought about this. There is a characteristic within the album
00:50:22
Speaker
where I feel like each song links to another. I get that. And I mean lyrically, production-wise, the overall vibe, the theme of the album. Every time I hear any section of any of those songs, if you say to me, right, Think of Master of Puppets, the song, I'll think of a moment where I saw them live.
00:50:45
Speaker
If you say to me the thing that should not be, I think of it was on Guitar Hero 3 when I was younger, so I used to play that. You say battery, I think of the, I think of machine head covering here, as well as a live performance, I've seen it. When you play from me, any moment of any song from Anjustice for All, the cover is just stuck in my head. That's me as well. The grey cover, the lady of justice, the sword in one hand, the scales in the other.
00:51:15
Speaker
And I think another part of it is that it was the first Metallica album I listened to, and actually one of the first albums I listened to was Metal. I had no idea. I was into stuff like a bit of Bullet for my Valentine, and Slipknot was my introduction to Metal. But then as I delved deeper, my cousin started playing the Iron Maiden, and then he showed me this one. He held out Unjustice for All.
00:51:40
Speaker
this and I put it on my life has never been the same and I mean that I mean that but that's right back to my point there is just an overall vibe about the album where I feel like from start to finish I'm locked in to an experience whereas with Master of Puppets I can play battery on its own and not want to listen to the rest of the album
00:52:01
Speaker
If I'm in the mood for a calm song, I'll put on Welcome Home Sanitarium and I don't have to listen to anything before or after. If I want an instrumental, I can put on a riot. I don't feel I have to do anything otherwise. With Unjustice For All, whatever song I play, Shortest Straw, To Live Is To Die, Blackened, when one of them is done, I want to go on to the next one. You know, a very interesting point.
00:52:24
Speaker
Sean just said, I think that with Cliffy, meaning Cliff Burton, gone there was less diversity of musical opinion and that is why it has a more continuous feel.
00:52:39
Speaker
With Cliff Burton gone, there was less diversity of musical opinion, and that is why it potentially feels like there's more continue. Absolutely, and that's something I'd never considered. It's a big prop, Sean. That's a great comment. Yeah, that's a great thought. So with there being a third person writing with Cliff Burton, that may be why you got some of the diversity that I'm talking about in Master Puppets. But if you just have two people working on it, Hetfield and Ulrich, then it is a streamlined sound, isn't it? It's not like, OK. But at the same time, I don't feel that limited them.
00:53:09
Speaker
I don't feel it's a limiting factor so I'll start, I agree with what Sean said. I do as well, I think that's a good point. There is no, I didn't know what I was going to say with that, Sean is completely right but don't look at that as a negative, oh well there was less musical opinion so it's narrower, no I think for this album it worked, I think it made it what it is. And now we've got the bass. Yeah, let's talk about the bass. Can you talk about the bass from the start, can I?
00:53:38
Speaker
I'm a bass player, for those who don't know. So this is somewhat important to me because Cliff Burton is one of my earliest influences. So, as Dash said, in Kill'em All, you've got the song Anesthesia, which is an instrumental that is preceded by like a bass solo on its own, and then the rest of the instruments join in, and there's like a little jam towards the end. And what you're getting in that is you're getting Cliff Burton doing some shredding. Now, the first two notes of the song is not hard. I learned it when I was a child, but it's not about technicality
Cliff Burton's Influence
00:54:05
Speaker
or difficulty. It's about the emotion that the notes play through to you.
00:54:08
Speaker
And I remember watching a video of Cliff Byrne playing it, and it's easy to play, but the way he sort of headbangs as he's playing, it's so simple that he can headbang whilst playing the simplicity of these notes. Then it takes up a step with the second half of anesthesia because he just goes on the shred with the rest of the band. What they then did is they integrated Cliff's playing with the rest of the band, and in Call of Cthulhu,
00:54:37
Speaker
It's quite hard to hear, and I remember having to listen a fair few times when I was younger to identify, but there's a bass solo in that. Did you know that? Did you hear it? I don't think I did. The thing is, it's like... And you hear Cliff's bass going, wow, wow. He loved the wah pedal. So he loved to mask his bass tone in a lot of fuzz, a lot of wah. And you can hear, again, it's so hard to hear, I must admit,
00:55:06
Speaker
that he's shredding in Call of Cthulhu. That those notes might be wrong. And his face, yep, shredding. And F-W-T-B-T. Oh, for whom the bell tolls, of course. F-W-T-T-B-T-B-F. That opening melody is a bass.
00:55:33
Speaker
That's a bass guitar playing the melody. Now, in terms of bass playing in metal, you've had Sabbath 1775 playing the riffs in unison with the guitar. Some counter riffs, but overall they're linked.
00:55:47
Speaker
You get things getting a bit more progressive with Rainbow and Priest, but because the guitars and the keyboards were sort of soloing, the bass would kind of stick and be a bit simple. Then you get Steve Harris and I in Maiden, and I'm convinced that Steve Harris is a massive fan of John Paul Jones of Led Zeppelin because I hear the influences between them. Steve Harris kind of took the bass as its own instrument. It kind of de-
00:56:09
Speaker
It detached from exclusively matching the guitars and it became its own thing. Listen to any iMEGA song. That's how obvious this change is. But what it didn't do was become a solo lead instrument.
00:56:27
Speaker
They didn't do that. There were moments he solo led with a guitar, start number of the beast. That's the bass of guitar in unison. It's not solo.
00:56:40
Speaker
Then you've got Cliff Burton, with whom the bell tolls, playing the opening melody of a metal song on a bass, right up behind. Bass players, we call it the dusty end, because we never go up there. We keep our notes down low. So when you go up to the dusty end, it's like, what are you doing? Yeah. And that's, yeah, so melody. Then, so that was Ride the Liming, Master of Puppets, Orion.
00:57:04
Speaker
And you've got that bass waltz in it. And the waltz is, we're talking timestamps, the waltz is in 3-4 and it makes you want to say one, two, three, one, two, three. And you've just got that lovely thing again, it's not metal. It's beautiful. It's not like you change the instrument and that's a classical piece of music. Yeah.
00:57:25
Speaker
And then you've got the guitars coming over that. We're not talking about guitars, this is bass time. We never get bass time, so I'm going to take advantage of it. Go ahead. Yeah, no, no, I don't have anything more to add really. His bass playing was phenomenal. He was such a huge part of the progression and development of bass in metal, as well as the songwriting of Thrash.
00:57:46
Speaker
The Master of Puppets bassline is so incredibly hard to play as a bass player. With a guitarist, you can do this thing where you alternate, well, you've got a pick, so you can go... And you've got the strings... Next string... It's easier because the strings are closer together on a guitar. With a bass, they're further away and the strings are thicker.
00:58:10
Speaker
So you've got to think, you've got to go... And the speed of Master of Puppets... And he played it seamlessly. Every version I've seen that they've played, he's flawless. And it's such a hard thing to play. So this is our... You can't do an early era Metallica album talk without talking about Cliff Byrne. Of course. And this is to him. Yeah. But do you want to talk about how things went after? Yeah, well, it's a well-known fact.
00:58:41
Speaker
that the production and justice for all, let's say there isn't much base in it.
00:58:48
Speaker
You can't really hear much bass in it. Should we just say, for those who don't know, I think you do know because you tuned into a Metallica thing, but just because we didn't say it, Cliff Byrne died. Yeah, Cliff Byrne died, sadly. Yeah, and then they replaced him. Jason Neustad was the new bass player. I thought if anyone who doesn't know, they might be like, look, what, did he leave? I know. Sorry, he died, yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, it was a bass crash whilst they were on tour in
00:59:13
Speaker
So tragically he died and Jason Neustad joined the band and Justice was his first album of the band and you can't really hear much bass on it. I'll go as far as saying I can't really hear bass on it and
00:59:37
Speaker
I don't know what to say about it without sounding critical. You can criticize. Okay, I can criticize. I don't know if I... It's weird, okay? I don't know if I love it without the bass on it. But the other day, I just YouTubed and Justice For All with the bass and I listened to it with the bass. And you know what? It's on the same album.
01:00:02
Speaker
It's not the way I know it already because I have obviously listened at multiple times before. So it's a weird one.
01:00:12
Speaker
It's a weird one because it's like I'd really like the bass there just because it's my personal preference. I really enjoy bass as an instrument in the production, in the composition of the song. I enjoy it. I love it. I rely on it a lot as a singer. But when I listen to Injustice with the bass, supposedly, how would it sound if the bass was a bit more boosted? I don't know if I like it either, which is
01:00:40
Speaker
Just weird, isn't it? Well, it's kind of like it is what it is we've been given, what we've been given. And back when I first discovered all when I was showing And Justice For All, I don't think I had a good competency about what a metal band was. I don't think I knew what role the bass played. The guitars are kind of obvious, the drums are kind of obvious. I swear everything's obvious, isn't it? No, I didn't know what I was missing. I didn't know that there was no bass. Only years later, I found out that, I mean, we'll talk about that in a minute,
01:01:09
Speaker
but yeah I didn't know what I was missing and so that's why I still love the album the way I did when I first heard it because to me it isn't missing anything and if you want to criticize the fact that there is no bass now we don't know why there's no bass it's strongly rumored well I think the official story is that there was something went wrong with the mix and they lost all of the tracks
01:01:33
Speaker
The unofficial story is that Lars, Kirk and James were still very, very hurt from the passing of Cliff Burton. And there's talks that they didn't want Cliff Burton to be overshadowed.
01:01:50
Speaker
with Metallica's next release. Because you've got to think, remember what I said, Kill'em All started thrash, Ride the Lightning established it, Master of Puppets perfected it, and Anjustice for All progressed it. So if you're making a progressive album, you are pushing the boundaries. You are trying stuff that people haven't tried before.
Bass in 'And Justice For All'
01:02:10
Speaker
Now imagine with an album like Anjustice for All, where it's a success. And they've done it perfectly, in my opinion.
01:02:19
Speaker
people are going to forget about Cliff Burton. They're not, but that might be their thinking that, you know, my God, I just thought this is a great album and Jason's playing phenomenal. But people are going to forget about Cliff. Why don't we turn the bass down? It's a tough one. And it's all speculation. There is no evidence that they turn that down. Exactly. But all we can do is speculate.
01:02:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I overall, I'm not a fan of the production on the album. Why? Because it doesn't have enough slow end on it for me, generally. And I think James's vocals kind of lost the depth a little bit as well because of that production, because he's got that, you know, raw sort of thing about him. And he still does. But if I was to go to like equalizer, I'd say that the EQ
01:03:15
Speaker
It was not, yeah, it was not in bassist favor in general, actually. I think it all sounds quite trebly in mid frequencies. And the thing that Master Republic's got so right was the mix.
01:03:29
Speaker
and how they, well, how they mixed the album, the balance of the instruments and how everything you needed was in the album. So in terms of production quality, it is lower than Master of Puppets. I'm happy to admit that. But for me, like I said, the unity of all the songs
01:03:46
Speaker
The riffage, some of the riffs are just the heaviest I've heard. The individual moments of brilliance. For me, And Justice For All, the song is one of the greatest metal songs ever written. I don't see how anyone could say otherwise. It is just full of everything. That slow kind of intro, then you get the verse established with a verse and a chorus and a verse and a chorus. Loads of time changes. And then you get that middle section, which brings it all the way down, completely changes tempo,
01:04:14
Speaker
changes the feel of it and then you're brought back up to the final verse and chorus. And I think that's just what made this album so special, is that if the songwriting had been exactly the same as Master of Puppets, it wouldn't be as good. I feel the songwriting's better, I'm just going to say that. I feel the songwriting is better on Injustice for All.
01:04:33
Speaker
and we'll never know what it sounded like with the bass. No, not really. I'd love to know, I'd love to know. But you know what I also want to say, I want to talk about James Headfield as a rhythm guitarist.
James Hetfield's Rhythm Guitar Skills
01:04:47
Speaker
Oh yes. Wow, like wow, all right, because
01:04:53
Speaker
when we saw them live. And it was my first time seeing them live, you guys. This year was the year for me. I saw Iron Maiden and I saw Metallica. This guy got me tickets for my birthday for birthday. It was amazing. It was absolutely mind blowing. And he's just so skilled. Oh my goodness. To sing and to play this complicated stuff. Okay, it's not easy. To say the least. Yeah, it was quite something.
01:05:22
Speaker
the best yeah and then and it's always something that with a with a metal band i suppose it is the rhythm uh bass is always at the bottom of the uh of the musical appreciation or that but i think next to that is rhythm guitarist because the guitar the lead guitarist that's obvious vocals are obvious drums you kind of
01:05:42
Speaker
They're still, if they're mixed well, they don't overpower, but you can still hear them as a different entity. And so then just comes the rhythm guitar on the bass and with the rhythm guitar, some of the stuff he plays through this album plays and sings. And there's a perfect example of the best live show of Metallica I've seen. I know I was there, but it's on YouTube. 1989,
01:06:08
Speaker
It's in Seattle. I think it's called Live Shit, Binge and Purge. I will find this just to confirm. But they play basically each song twice the speed. They just want to get through as many songs as possible. Metallica, Live Shit, Binge and Purge, Seattle 1989. Two hours, 15 minutes of the best thrash you're going to hear. Hetfield is on fire with his vocals and also
01:06:37
Speaker
as Dash mentioned, his rhythm guitar playing, for a whole two hours and 15 minutes he is down picking in a very complicated manner whilst singing. He is brilliant. Monster. What can I say? Did you want to say anything else about him? No, I just want to sing some praise because I think evidently he's very talented. Lars and him met, I think he was like 19 and they wrote Kill them all.
01:07:06
Speaker
like two years later, young people. It's quite amazing. Like I'm much older, you know? Like, oh, that's really great. That is amazing. We also have a comment saying, I love it when metal songs incorporate some non-metal parts. The band Corpamente. I don't know that band, actually. Lows my mind. Avant Garde Metal and Frog Metal. That's cool. I really want to get into that at some point. And I have the same story that in the missing bass. Yes, they were in pain. Yeah. Like we said,
01:07:34
Speaker
I think it's about that range. And it's understandable, but I mean the people who have now done those bass covers, they've recorded their bass alongside the album, they call it Unjustice for Jason, which I kind of like because it's like, he does deserve praise for the album because he is good. But James, James is just James.
01:08:00
Speaker
Looking back on all four albums now, how do you want to summarise? What do you want to say about them all? Well, I think that their writing in heavy metal is just a great example of some amazing heavy metal writing. And I think that looking back, I would definitely say that Master of Puppets is my favourite.
01:08:30
Speaker
within that spin-fresh era. I'm not talking about any other albums like Metallica. We're not actually today, are we? We're going to probably do another stream on that at some point. But definitely Master of Puppets. And it's that variety that I like. I like that. And I know that you appreciate the fact that Injustice feels like one sort of finished... An entity. An entity.
01:08:54
Speaker
Whereas I appreciate Master of Puppets for its variety. I like that. I like the different social, political issues that they talk about as well. I think the lyrics are very deep, which speaks to me because I appreciate that. And I think overall, I see why they are one of the best heavy metal bands in the world.
01:09:16
Speaker
and how they got to that stage. And how they got to that stage? What about you? We'll be doing another video of Metallica in the 90s at some point. That's not even planned yet and then obviously their revival in the 2010s onwards much later today. For me, I think
01:09:33
Speaker
I'm reluctant to leave Al Kilamore, but I feel it's appropriate to do so. But I feel that that trilogy of albums, Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets and Unjustice for All, it had a formula to it. And I wanted to go into this because I think this is something that is just so fantastic. They had a formula with those albums. Now check this out, so I've written it down. So Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets and Unjustice for All, all follow this. Let us know in the comments if you knew about this, if you'd figured this out.
01:10:03
Speaker
Title one, sorry, the song list similarities, track one of all three albums, a thrash epic with an acoustic or a soft introduction that builds up into the main song.
Metallica's Structured Success
01:10:16
Speaker
Track two, title track, the song that's named after the album, much longer, much more complex, and much more variety in terms of structure. Song three, slower, sluggier, heavier,
01:10:32
Speaker
A bit doomier, just slow in general. Track four, the metal ballad, then either the penultimate track or the last track, the instrumental. So in Ride the Lining, Fight Fire with Fire, the thrash epic, Ride the Lining, the title track, for whom the bell tolls, the slow sludger.
01:10:51
Speaker
Fade to black, the ballad, and call of Cthulhu, the instrumental. In Master of Puppets, Battery, the opener. Master of Puppets, the long, complex title track. Thing that should not be the sludgy one. Welcome Home, the ballad, Orion, the instrumental. And Justice for All, blackened the thrash epic. And Justice for All, the longer, complex title track. Eye of the beholder, slower, heavier.
01:11:16
Speaker
won the ballad and to live is to die the instrumental. And I think following a formula like that, I think they figured it out on Ride the Lightning. I think they said this has worked. The fans have loved it. Look how brilliantly it makes the album flow.
01:11:31
Speaker
fast, epic track to start off with. Then we make a fast second track that is much longer, much more complex, gives them something a little interesting. Then let's bring it really down for the third track. Let's make it slower. Let's make these riffs work. Let's make it heavier. Fourth track, let's give them a bit of a break. Let's bring it down with the metal ballad. And we're going to talk about the metal ballad in a second. We'll bring it down with the metal ballad before we go on. And then normally in the rest of these albums, you've got
01:12:01
Speaker
the heavier tracks, some more traditional tracks, leopard messiah, disposable heroes, choice, straw, harvester of sorrow, you know, they fill it out with the other stuff they're good at before then either ending or second to last, some of the album being instrumental. Have they ever confirmed this? What do you mean? That they're doing this formula? Oh, no, of course not. That's brilliant. And the funny thing is they do the same with Death Magnetic.
01:12:30
Speaker
Yeah well we're going to talk about it. There's a tiny change here and there but ultimately they went back to that formula. I can really believe that because what I read about them is that Lars generally does all this structuring stuff. So structures, set list, he's crazy about, he wants to be perfect you know and I'm sure
01:12:52
Speaker
this is what happened. They just figured it out and they decided to follow that formula. That's really great, that's really great. So the only other thing I want to do is really talk about that metal ballad because I think, I don't want to say Metallica the first band to have done a metal ballad because that could, that might not be true, I don't know and I don't want to speak on what I don't know.
Influence on Metal Ballads
01:13:11
Speaker
But what they did is they certainly influenced a number of other bands in many decades to come to play with this formula and this is another formula
01:13:21
Speaker
Fade to Black, Welcome Home Sanitarium, and One, and if we want to go later, The Day That Never Comes, all have this formula where the song starts slow and softly, normally with an acoustic guitar or a clean electric guitar playing some form of chord, a broken chord, not like a dang, the whole chord, but like a doo-dee-dee-doo, doo-dee-dee-doo, we call it an arpeggio, a broken chord.
01:13:52
Speaker
you get that and then you get a solo and then you get the intro notes played over as a verse and you get chorus which is heavier and like they turn the distortion up and then they go in for the chorus and they drop down for another solo in another verse then another heavy chorus before a bridge that links the softness to the loudness and it ascends up through the bridge before you get an outro that is just heavy
01:14:16
Speaker
All those songs, we're gonna listen to them. Fade to black, welcome home, one day that never comes. They all follow that same formula. And I think this is why Metallica are so big and famous. Because they knew when something worked, let's stick to it. And why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you? And why wouldn't you? That's it. This is the lesson from Metallica for us all. Why wouldn't you?
01:14:41
Speaker
That's really good. And it's worked, and I love their ballads. Yeah, they're so good. I enjoy them so much for all their albums, really, whenever they come up. They played Welcome Home when we saw them in the sanitarium. Yeah, really, really good. I'm lucky. I don't mean to boast, but I'm lucky enough to say that I've seen them four or five times. And I think I've heard Fade to Black, One, Welcome Home, and Data Never Comes, all of them. Sometimes more than once. Sorry.
01:15:11
Speaker
That's okay. I'm happy for you, really. I'm happy for me. I've seen this happen. You've seen them and it was so great. I'm very happy for you. You loved it. Yes, I absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved it. That it? That's it. Yeah, I'm very concerned with everything. Let's give them 30 seconds to anyone who's watching to ask any questions or any comments about anything. And whilst anyone's typing out any questions or comments, we're going to tell you that the next one of these we're doing is going to be in relation to a reel that we're releasing next week.
01:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, so next week we are going to and then in the subsequent weeks we're going to be releasing two reels but part one and part two of the history of Death Metal which I know you guys have asked for so we're doing a two-parter on that and then in the same way that Metallica have influenced and their albums have lent to the development of Thrash there is a band in Death Metal who are very important
01:16:06
Speaker
who we're going to talk about their albums in depth and go one by one and see how the changes went just kind of like this.
Engagement and Gratitude to Audience
01:16:14
Speaker
Yeah. And that's it. So keep an eye out on the page. Make sure you hit like, subscribe, follow for the information. Yeah. Your support means the world to us. Like it means a lot more than you guys think it really does. So thank you very much for joining our live streams and I hope you enjoy it. I'm trying to look everywhere.
01:16:35
Speaker
um and oh yeah she was just saying I made it remember tomorrow in strange world at two early ballots two of my favorite diana songs I really like remember tomorrow yeah um and I'm just trying to and do you know what remember tomorrow does kind of follow that structure and it's going to soften these it's just because of the limited production value that they had back it back that was the first that was in 1980
01:17:01
Speaker
The difference between the loud parts and the soft parts aren't as emphasized as I feel they are on Metallica.
01:17:10
Speaker
I'm not disagreeing or saying anything, I just feel like Sean's right, they're both sort of the same structure, but with the production value the Metallica were able to bring in 84 onwards, the difference in distortion and the heaviness of the guitars in the chorus of the ballad and how much it contrasted the softer early sections, I thought is really what established this metal ballad thing. And one thing I've got to say is, bands using it later on,
01:17:36
Speaker
So many have now adopted this method, and I'm just going to give you two songs as an example. Say Good Night by Bullet for My Valentine, that was one of the bands that first got me into metal, and more recently Buried Alive by Avenged Sevenfold. They all follow this. I'm not going to go through it again, I just did it, but the soft, loud, soft, loud bridge ending loud.
01:17:55
Speaker
That, oh my goodness, you're right about buried alive. I love that. Yeah. Yes, it makes turn sense. Yeah. So Natalia inspired so many people as well. Obviously. Obviously. Yeah, that's, it goes without saying. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
01:18:12
Speaker
It's been very enjoyable and we both love Metallica. You've been listening to them forever, literally. I've joined you in the recent years. So I think I've been listening to them for over half of my life. Yeah. And considering we're in our 20s, that's not a long life. Yeah, yeah. Late 20s. So what does anyone think I'm 21?
01:18:40
Speaker
Well, you do have a very, very young face, so yeah. Basically, I just want to say thank you very much again, you guys. I hope you enjoyed our conversation and thank you, kids. Thank you.
01:18:55
Speaker
Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.
Closing Remarks and Future Plans
01:18:58
Speaker
Thank you very much for joining. Please stay tuned for new live streams, new reels, and new videos. We will, we always post beforehand. We always make sure you guys are aware that a live stream is gonna happen. So yeah, stay tuned. We'll see you soon. Have a metal day. And justice for all is the best mentality.
01:19:22
Speaker
Have a lovely day. I like Master of Puppets, but... See you all guys later. Bye. I'm just a fool. Oh, this is so funny. Wait, I'm trying to...