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The REAL Game of Thrones - Episode 26
61 Plays8 years ago
Hey everybody! I’m back for the 26th episode of the Struggling Archaeologist’s Guide to Getting Dirty, and this is a pretty cool one, it’s time for the “REAL Game of Thrones!” Unless you’ve been living under a rock you’ve probably noticed that it’s Game of Thrones time once again. So while you’re catching up on life in Westeros this season why not enjoy a bit of the history behind George R. R. Martin’s addictive series. While there’s lots to choose from, this episode focuses on the links between the Lannister/Stark feud and the English monarchy during the Wars of the Roses.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You are listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:26
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the struggling archaeologist's guide to getting dirty. My name is Jenny, I am your host, and welcome to episode 26 of the podcast.
Game of Thrones and Historical Inspirations
00:00:38
Speaker
I'm really excited to be here right now because I'm sure none of you have been able to escape the inevitable return of
00:00:48
Speaker
HBO's fantastic series Game of Thrones based on the series by George RR Martin which is returning for season six starting up here really soon. It's been kind of taking over the world and
00:01:05
Speaker
Of course I am not immune to the awesomeness which is Game of Thrones because as you know in addition to being a humongous history nerd I am just a nerd in general for many things especially in the literary world
00:01:23
Speaker
And Game of Thrones is amongst my many interests and fun, fan, geeky things that I am into. So I got a lot of really good feedback when I did the episode on Lord of the Rings because a lot of you guys, as I think I said in that podcast, who are into history and archaeology also happen to be into things like Lord of the Rings like me.
00:01:52
Speaker
and i am going to just bet i'm going to put it out there i'm going to bet that many of you are also game of thrones fans and so this week on the podcast i figured why not explore the world of game of thrones and the real history which lies behind it yes
00:02:13
Speaker
very exciting so there are many many different parts of history that served as inspirations for george r martin as he was writing lord writing lord drinks as he was writing game of thrones the song of ice and fire series
Wars of the Roses and Game of Thrones
00:02:30
Speaker
many different periods in history, places, events, people, cultures. The man's ability to absorb all of this stuff about history and culture and to kind of process it, filter it, re-appropriate it, and deliver it into a different fictional world as part of the stories and the people that we
00:02:58
Speaker
experience as we read his books is just absolutely astounding and so there's actually too much to talk about I think for one podcast and so I am actually going to be focusing this podcast particularly on one aspect of Game of Thrones as it relates to history even though there are many more avenues and areas in which I could take it and there are actually a lot of other series and podcasts that have
00:03:28
Speaker
done this. I know History Buffs podcast just put out a new episode with their own history of Game of Thrones, so definitely give that a listen. And specifically, I was inspired to do this podcast by a documentary, which was actually made for the
00:03:46
Speaker
uh... season five game of thrones blu-ray as an exclusive feature and that is the real history behind game of thrones documentary and it's a really excellent documentary get your hands on it if you can it is on youtube
00:04:02
Speaker
So you can watch it there. It is interviews with George RR Martin. It's interviews with historians. I think it's basically hosted by Dan Jones, who is an author and historian. He wrote the book, The War of the Roses, and he is ridiculously attractive. So that also doesn't make it that difficult to watch. So yeah, it's a really great series that is really more specifically looking at Game of Thrones in relation to how
00:04:30
Speaker
It reflects the real historical events of the Wars of the Roses, which is a period in English history that is very exciting. And that is actually what I decided to sort of use as my guide for the podcast today.
00:04:46
Speaker
So perhaps I might do another Game of Thrones podcast at a different time because I think there's also a lot of really interesting ancient civilizations that find representation in Game of Thrones that we could talk about too. And also just other cultures like Norse, I don't know, there's a whole bunch of different ones. But for now, I thought that this documentary was so well done and so interesting.
00:05:10
Speaker
that when I watched it I went kind of crazy and it took me like three days to get through a 40-minute documentary because I was stopping to do all of my own research into all of the different people and events that it was talking about and so I was like well I did so much of my own geeky research that I might as well just sort of expand upon what they're talking about in the documentary for the podcast.
00:05:32
Speaker
And so that's what we're going to do today. So I'm very excited. Let's get started. So we're going to talk about the Wars of the Roses first for a little bit before we really get into the Game of Thrones comparisons because
00:05:48
Speaker
Game of Thrones is based um let's see not man Game of Thrones is so confusing Westeros is huge there's all these different parts of Westeros but the main story as you come into it in the beginning of the first book Song of Ice and Fire
00:06:03
Speaker
is based on the relationship between Winterfell and King's Landing and the two families who are ruling in these two areas at the time who are the Starks and the Lannisters.
00:06:18
Speaker
And so the basically the feud that erupts between these two houses and the two areas of Westeros which they rule and how the entire land is embroiled in this battle and it sort of engulfs the world as
00:06:37
Speaker
as this conflict erupts is basically based on the events of the Wars of the Roses and the feud between the two families of York and Lancaster, which affected the rule of England in the middle of the 15th century. And so a lot of Game of Thrones is reminiscent of this period, a lot of characters,
00:07:02
Speaker
come straight out of the story and even certain events you will see and when you know things that have happened in real life during War of the Roses you'll be like holy crap that's really similar. George RR Martin must have been thinking about this when he wrote that scene and so there's just so much. So I think instead of just getting into
00:07:26
Speaker
all of the similarities and just kind of jumping around between different events and characters throughout this period in English history. I'm going to give you guys a brief overview of the War of the Roses, Wars of the Roses, and the
00:07:41
Speaker
sort of world of the English monarchy in the sort of 14th, 15th centuries so that you have the basis of the real events of the story to go on as we then overlay the Game of Thrones world on top of it. I think it'll be easier for you to make those comparisons and to sort of understand where we're coming and going out of the actual historical events. So
00:08:11
Speaker
I'm so excited to talk about this. Okay, so let's get started. We are going to get a real quick and dirty overview here of what was happening and of the English monarchy going into this period in history.
00:08:30
Speaker
So the Wars of the Roses, if you are, you're probably familiar with the term, it relates to a series of conflicts taking place basically between about 1455 and 1485 in England. And it was based on a feud over the English monarchy and who had the rightful rule of England at the time. And it was basically between two different branches of the Plantagenet family who had been ruling England previously.
00:09:02
Speaker
And that would be the House of York and the House of Lancaster. And yeah, the name War of the Roses actually comes from the two different badges that have come to represent each of these houses, the white rose representing the House of York.
00:09:18
Speaker
the red rose representing the house of Lancaster, or at least that's how it was represented in the combined Tudor rose, which arose to represent the monarchy after the conflict was over and the two houses were again united. So that is where the name comes from is from those symbols.
00:09:40
Speaker
and the conflict all stemmed, get it, from a disagreement over the rightful heir to the king, Edward III, who ruled until his death in 1377. He was a legitimate plantagenet king from the line of Henry II, who was also descended from William the Conqueror, who is considered to be the first English king of England, yes.
00:10:09
Speaker
And so Edward III had three surviving sons.
00:10:17
Speaker
He had four sons, just to be clear, but his heir was Edward the Black Prince, and he unfortunately died the year before Edward died, so he could not take over as king. And so the title passed to the Black Prince's son, who was King Richard II. Now,
00:10:45
Speaker
Edward III's other son, one of his other sons, John of Gaunt, was a very well-known figure. Many people said he could have then become king when Edward III died because Richard II was very young at the time, and so John of Gaunt probably could have seized the throne if he wanted to, but apparently he didn't want to be the king, and so he did not seize the crown, and so the kingship went to the rightful heir, which was Richard II, the son of the Black Prince,
00:11:15
Speaker
Edward.
00:11:16
Speaker
And so, yeah, just a quick refresher on primogeniture for anyone who isn't clear, and I will relay it in today's terms. So, say Prince Charles dies, his son, Prince William the Wonderful, who I think that should definitely be his name in history, William the Wonderful, because he's awesome. He will take over as prince or king if Queen Elizabeth is dead at that point.
00:11:46
Speaker
And Prince William's son, George, if Prince William dies, will then inherit the title of Prince. And if both Prince Charles and Prince William die before either of them get to become king, then Prince George would be the next in line to be the king after Elizabeth passes.
00:12:08
Speaker
Um, and so George is the, you know, youngest in the line to the throne at the moment. Um, but if for some reason poor
Rise and Fall of Monarchs
00:12:18
Speaker
little adorable Prince George passes away, then Harry finally gets to be king, okay?
00:12:24
Speaker
So it's not like if Charles and William both die, Harry can just step in there as heir to the throne because before the second born gets a right to the throne, the first born, who is the heir's children, have right to that title. It passes from father to son through the first line.
00:12:47
Speaker
And so that is how it happened in this instance with Edward III, which is as it should be, right? So Richard II, even though he's only 10, becomes the king. The problem with this is that Richard is kind of a train wreck of a person. So 20 years later, he's still ruling. But you remember Edward II's other son, John of Gaunt?
00:13:11
Speaker
Well, his heir, his son, his name is Henry of Bolingbroke. He's not too thrilled with how Richard II is running England. He is kind of like, hey, you know what? This is kind of crappy. My dad probably should have been king instead of Richard, because Richard sucks. And that means that I should probably be king now, because why not? And my dad could have been king, so that would make me next in line, right?
00:13:40
Speaker
So he overthrows Richard II and installs himself as King of England and he becomes Henry IV. And he represents at this point the house and title of Lancaster. So this is the Lancaster line we're talking about that takes control of the throne.
00:13:59
Speaker
So even though John of Gaunt wasn't technically heir to the throne, his son and heir Henry decides that he should have been, and he claims the throne for himself.
00:14:11
Speaker
So he rules, hey, yay. Henry the fourth son, Henry the fifth becomes king, does lots of cool stuff, does his thing. He succeeded by his son, Henry the sixth. Fine, dandy, great, yeah. The problem comes now when Henry the sixth, who has been the king since he was a baby when his dad dies,
00:14:40
Speaker
is, you know, he's been on the throne for a while, he's almost 30, he doesn't have a son, and people begin to realize that he is batshit crazy. Yeah, so Henry VI is not doing so great, he's kinda nuts. The kingdom is being run at this point by his wife, Margaret of Anjou.
00:15:03
Speaker
But people are getting pretty angsty about the situation, about the sitch, and they're wondering, you know, how long is this gonna go on? Is Margaret just gonna keep ruling England? Is, you know, Henry gonna have a son? What are we gonna do if he doesn't? Who's gonna take over? Enter at this point Richard, Duke of York.
00:15:29
Speaker
Alright, I feel like I'm gonna start rapping like I'm in a min manual Miranda musical right now Break it down. So at this point Things get interesting yo enter dude Richard Duke of York
00:15:45
Speaker
So Richard, Duke of York, remember, I mentioned earlier that Edward III, the guy who started all of this, he had another other son, right? He had two other other sons, actually. One of them was named Edmund, and he, yeah, Edmund was technically never going to be the heir unless his brothers all died without leaving any sons, which is not very likely, but maybe it could have happened at some point in the world.
00:16:14
Speaker
But yeah, so there's Edmund, he's just hanging out, right? So when Richard II, he didn't actually have an heir to begin with when Henry IV deposed him. So when Richard II died after Henry deposed him, technically Henry was the proper heir to the throne anyway, I think. But now, I mean in the 1450s, that Henry's line might be ending because Henry's son is dead and Henry's
00:16:42
Speaker
grandson is insane and doesn't have an heir, maybe they're gonna need a new heir, right? So Little Edmund's line may finally be up to bat in this case. Unfortunately, Edmund had died in 1402 and his son Richard, his second son Richard, had been beheaded by Henry V in 1415.
00:17:09
Speaker
But this Richard's son, conveniently also named Richard, was still alive. And he actually provided the next best claim to the throne at this point. Lovely. Sounds great.
00:17:25
Speaker
except that Henry VI was still alive. And his queen, Margaret, was really not about to give up the crown at this point, and oh wait! In 1453, she magically produces a male heir to the throne, Edward of Lancaster.
00:17:45
Speaker
awkward. But back to the York side of the family. So Edmund's heir is Richard of York. He wasn't actually born the Duke of York, but he inherited the title Duke of York because Edmund's firstborn son had died childless at the Battle of Agincourt and he had passed the title at that point of Duke of York to the next surviving heir of the family who was Richard.
00:18:15
Speaker
And I'm so sorry, there are literally only like three names that anyone who's ever ruled England has ever used. So I really apologize, but you're gonna have to get used to being really confused as to which Richard is which Richard, which Edward is which Edward, and which Henry is which Henry. I'm sorry, that's just how it is.
00:18:34
Speaker
Um, so anyway, at this point it is 1453. We've got Edward of York, who's like, yo, this current king, Henry VI, is really friggin nuts and his son is an infant, so I should be king. Uh, because you know what? My family probably should have been king all along anyway, so let me have the throne, yo.
00:19:02
Speaker
And Henry the sixth queen, Queen Margaret, is like, hells, no, you're not getting the crown, yo. Because I like to be queen, and also, I like my son to be king, so I think I'm gonna fight tooth and nail to keep the throne from my family.
00:19:21
Speaker
And so that is basically exactly what happens. So Richard of York, he's got this beef with Queen Margaret because he's supposed to be the heir after Henry VI dies. And then Margaret has to go and have a little kid who is a boy who's going to be the king. And she's like, sorry, but not sorry. And Henry's pretty pissed off about that. So their beef continues to fester.
00:19:48
Speaker
Margaret continually disses him, she excludes him from state business, she just keeps pissing him off, and then finally in 1455 hostilities break out for the first time at the Battle of St. Albans.
00:20:03
Speaker
And that is basically where all of the fighting begins. After that, England basically gets broken up, has to choose sides, and then the supporters of each house battle each other on and off until the decisive battle of Bosworth Field in 1485, when the House of York is defeated, when Richard III is killed in the battle.
00:20:25
Speaker
And that is the end of the Wars of the Roses and the Houses are united and now the new king is a steward and the steward line of the monarchy will begin a new phase in English history. So...
00:20:42
Speaker
That is that stuff. If you were wondering, and this is where it gets a little confusing, what was happening during the wars of the roses as far as leadership goes. So at the beginning of the war you've got Richard, Duke of York. He's the one who
00:20:59
Speaker
is basically like I should be king he starts this this you know beef with queen margaret and so they're battling and it's his army against hers richard's got a son right his son uh is leading the battles he's kicking butt taking names at some point richard dies and his son edward says you know what i should just be the dang king so he declares himself
00:21:26
Speaker
King Edward IV in 1461. And so he's just like, I'm the king, yo, I'm the king. And he's kind of taken King Henry the sixth hostage. He's still insane. And so he's not really ruling. And so he's like, yeah, I'm the king. Deal with it. And so that's what happens until his death in 1483.
00:21:52
Speaker
When he dies at this point in battle, his brother Richard III claims the throne. Technically, Edward IV's son Edward V should have become king. He did kind of tenuously inherit the throne. But...
00:22:08
Speaker
Immediately, Richard III took the throne away from him and conveniently the 13-year-old Edward V died at the exact same time. So without a legitimate heir to challenge him from Richard, I'm sorry Edward IV, then of course his brother Richard III could legitimately be the king according to how he saw it.
00:22:36
Speaker
Now, what of the Lancasters during the war? That was the House York, remember? Now also remember, we had Crazy McGee's King Henry VI ruling when all of this broke out, right? Now, he's the Lancasterian king during the beginning of the wars. Unfortunately, he's no good to anybody because he's totally nuts. He gets taken hostage, he flees, he's not doing anything. He dies in 1971.
00:23:04
Speaker
Remember right before this all happened, his Queen Margaret finally had a male heir to the throne. She had a baby boy, his heir. She had been fighting this entire time so that this kid, Edward, would get to be king. Edward the miraculous never gets to be king because he also dies in 1471 at the Battle of Tewksbury at the age of 18.
00:23:30
Speaker
So, because Henry VI had no other heir, and neither did Henry V, who the heck claims the title of Lancasterian heir to the throne now? Well, none other, you ask, than this little upstart named Henry Tudor, aka Henry VII, founder of the Tudor monarchy.
00:23:52
Speaker
So how does that work? Check it. So Henry's dad was Edmund Tudor, son of King Henry V's widow, Catherine of Valois, and one of Henry's squires, a guy named Owen Tudor. But this really doesn't mean Jack. Henry's mother, on the other hand, is Margaret Beaufort, the great-granddaughter of John of Gaunt. Remember him? He's the father of Henry IV.
00:24:21
Speaker
Now John of Gaunt had a son named John Beaufort. He was actually an illegitimate half-brother of Henry IV. But through Henry, he and his siblings were actually given legitimacy, and so now his heirs were actually being passed the Lancaster title because Henry's own heirs had run out.
00:24:42
Speaker
So Henry Tudor is descendant through a daughter of that familial line, which, you know, people still aren't really cool with. And then on top of that, the whole illegitimate thing makes people really wonder if he has any right whatsoever to the throne. But he doesn't really care. He's claiming that title anyway. And so he leads the Lancaster army against Richard III. He finally defeats Richard's army at the Battle of Bosworth Hill. He kills Richard.
00:25:11
Speaker
He takes that English throne from the Yorks once and for all. But wait, just to show that he wants to unify the country and stop all the hating, he marries Elizabeth of York, King Edward IV's daughter. Remember King Edward IV? He was King Richard III's brother. Yeah, it's confusing.
00:25:36
Speaker
So he marries King Edward IV's daughter, which actually brings both the white and the red roses of House Lancaster and House York together to rule England as one. Finally, after all of this time and fighting and bickering and just brothers turning on brothers, turning on uncles and nephews and cousins, and gosh, it's just so darn ugly. It just makes me so sad.
00:26:06
Speaker
They should have just had like a big family dinner where they just hashed it out, and everybody got flowers, and that would never have worked. Sorry, that was really, that's a stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid thought, Jenny. Stupid.
00:26:24
Speaker
Anyway, moving on, that is a brief history of the Wars of the Roses. It ends in 1485 with Henry Tudor taking over the crown as the English monarch, Henry VII. And he would go on, of course, his son Henry VIII. You know all about Henry VIII, I am, I am, and the wives and the headings and all that stuff and the eating and the shooting.
00:26:51
Speaker
So, and just all that. So that's what happens afterwards. Gosh, England is just crazy nuts. But I love it.
Game of Thrones Characters and Their Historical Counterparts
00:27:01
Speaker
And now to something else that's crazy nuts that I also love. Game of Thrones. Okay.
00:27:17
Speaker
So as I said earlier, George R. R. Martin wrote the Game of Thrones series based on its Song of Ice and Fire series. And he is a knower and a lover of history. He based a lot of Game of Thrones events and periods and people on history. So he himself talks about how the majority of the story in the worlds of Westeros is based in Northern Europe and specifically England, kind of during this 15th century period around the War of the Roses.
00:27:47
Speaker
and that his Stark and Lannister feud, which is the basis for the beginning of the story, is based on the houses of York and Lancaster vying for the English throne for generations through battles, turns of fortune, and familial dramas.
00:28:05
Speaker
And as you see in Game of Thrones, it's not just about the throne. The story isn't. The battle for the throne is just a catalyst for all types of societal angst, for infighting, for chaos within the feudal system. It affects everything about life for the people of Westeros. And as the fortunes of many Game of Thrones characters take shocking twists and turns, so did the lives of many people from the nobility to the peasants during these type of events.
00:28:34
Speaker
in real life. So the Game of Thrones world mixes in many different historical periods and peoples, but at the heart it's a reflection of what happens when the world breaks down into factions, families, and ultimately individuals vying for the ultimate power of sitting on that iron throne, baby.
00:28:52
Speaker
And a lot of it seems way too fantastic, too vicious, too complicated to have ever played out in reality. But the truth is that the story has happened in one way or another for a time. This was life in medieval Europe. I mean, like besides like the really crazy aspects, like the White Walkers and the Shadow Baby crazy thingy that, you know, does gross things. So yeah, besides that stuff.
00:29:20
Speaker
There are obviously some really obvious homages to historical figures on the show, and then there are other elements that are interspersed with the War of the Roses story that sort of wreak havoc and set things on different paths for the characters and families of the shows.
00:29:37
Speaker
And so we're going to talk about some of the people and events that have parallels in this period of history. And the documentary goes into a lot of different characters. And each one of those, I was like, I could talk about just this one for like 20 minutes. So I've got to kind of limit. I'm going to only talk about a couple of them. But they're also cool. There's just tons. And I'll probably actually have to do another episode to go into all of it, because I feel like it's just not fair to skimp out.
00:30:06
Speaker
on all of this great stuff. So let's talk about a couple of the really cool, kind of exciting ones. So one of the best bad guys of the series. Oh, and just in case you didn't know it was coming, spoiler alert, anyone who hasn't watched Game of Thrones through season four,
00:30:28
Speaker
You should probably not listen to the rest of this if you don't want to be spoiled for anything. I myself have not seen season five yet, although I'm watching it very soon.
00:30:45
Speaker
don't plan on talking about anything that happens past season four but i will be talking about stuff up to that point and i'm so i'm sorry if you don't want to be spoiled for anything that happens to any of these characters i'm going to talk about but please do not listen if you haven't watched this stuff yet because you want to watch it for
00:31:08
Speaker
You don't want to be spoiled. I don't know how it might be possible to be not spoiled in this world that we live in today yet for Game of Thrones seasons one through four at least. But please, for the love of God, don't ruin it for yourself. Just turn me off. That sounds weird. Just go watch the show. Okay.
00:31:29
Speaker
So spoiler alert, moving forward. Okay, so let's talk about Tywin Lannister. He's one of the best bad guys on the series. Charles Dance is so awesome that he's just such a good actor. I love his character. I love his performance. He's awesome.
00:31:46
Speaker
So the actual inspiration according to Martin for Tywin Lannister is actually the English king Edward I. And now this is a king who harkens back even before the Wars of the Roses. But Edward I is a very strong character in English history.
00:32:08
Speaker
He was called Edward the Longshanks, was his nickname. And he was called Longshanks because he was very tall. And so he was a king who was known for being devious, scary, and out for blood, just like Tywin Lannister. He ruled England from 1272 to 1307. And yes, if you were wondering, he is the bad guy king from Braveheart. Same guy.
00:32:36
Speaker
During the reign of Edward I, he conquered Wales. He subdued rebellions throughout the continent. He attempted to bring Scotland under his rule, which earned him the nickname The Hammer of the Scots.
00:32:51
Speaker
which is all very similar to the type of world that Tywin Lannister is trying to orchestrate control over as he helps rule from King's Landing as a part of his family's monarchy.
00:33:07
Speaker
So another interesting parallel in Edwards is Edwards' relationship with his children to Tywin's. So Edward wanted strong, capable children. He wanted his heir, Edward II, to be a really strong ruler like him. But unfortunately, Edward was never that type of man.
00:33:29
Speaker
But unfortunately, he was the only one of his sons by his first wife, Eleanor of Castile, and the only one of his first sons that outlived him, so therefore he had to inherit the throne. Edward had many children, he had many daughters that died young, he had other sons, but
00:33:48
Speaker
Anyway, Edward II was his heir, for better or worse, and he was never the type of heir that Edward I could be proud of. This is kind of similar to Tywin in many ways.
00:34:03
Speaker
He never gets to see his oldest son take the throne. He's very frustrated at Jaime Lannister's lack of drive to rule. He also has this daughter named Circe, who is really capable, but she's unable to rule herself, which you never know may have been the case with some of Edward I's daughters, the ones who survived.
00:34:23
Speaker
And then it's even possible that his youngest child, Tyrion, who in the show is seen as an embarrassment to his family because of his dwarfism, he may actually be a representation of Edward II's alleged preference for men.
00:34:40
Speaker
which made him appear weak to his father would have and Edward I actually exiled his son Edward's favorite member of court and possible lover several times. So yeah, his son Edward II is rumored to have been gay and that would have been a source of embarrassment and that would have made him not the type of heir or ruler that Edward I wanted.
00:35:09
Speaker
Um, to secede him and you could say that Ty the Tyrion Lannister is seen in a very similar way as a disappointment that his father could never see following his, his rule and probably embarrassed, you know, that he was a son of his.
00:35:25
Speaker
And then there's also the obvious comparison, if we're going to talk about Tyrion, between Tyrion and Richard III, which is a different thing. They're both downcast because of their physical deformity, even though it was beyond their control. And this image of physical corruption was used by their enemies, both Tyrion and Richard III, to paint them as this morally corrupt type of character, someone who's not fit to rule.
00:35:52
Speaker
It's reflected very much by Tyrion's story in the show as well, and as we know Tyrion is one of the best characters on the show. Martin himself adds that not only is Tyrion one of his favorite characters, but Richard III is one of his favorite historical characters.
00:36:12
Speaker
I think it's pretty obvious that Tyrion is meant to be this type of character from history, this sort of tragic character who had the opportunity to be something that he's not allowed to be by society. And I think you can see that clear parallel that Martin's put in there between Richard III and
00:36:33
Speaker
anterian and interestingly in the special in the documentary Martin's talking about how Richard III's deformity was made up by his enemies and by Shakespeare and just sort of something that was created to corrupt how people saw him in the future and we know now because of archaeology that Richard III was actually a hunchback due to his extreme scoliosis and so his deformity was something that was a reality
00:37:02
Speaker
and that his enemies were aware of and people probably used against him as far as his characterization was concerned, which actually makes him even more like Tyrion than Martin even originally intended, which is kind of funny.
00:37:18
Speaker
So that's Tywin and Tyrion, which you know, still pretty cool stuff. We can talk about Martin's focus on female characters a lot. He pays a lot of attention to female characters. It's a really great nod to the many strong women in history that have never really received the attention that is given to their male counterparts.
00:37:39
Speaker
And Circe, who is one of the main characters in the show, it's really great to see such a strong woman being represented by Martin in this position of power. She's probably based on the English-Lancasterian queen, Margaret of Anjou, who I remember I was talking about earlier. Margaret of Anjou, the wife of the Mad King, Henry VI, she actually ruled on and off for him because he was crazy nuts.
00:38:07
Speaker
from between like 1445 to 1471. She was actually nicknamed the She-Wolf of France because remember she was so she was so passionate about ruling in Henry's stead and in maintaining the Lancasterian crown for her son Edward.
00:38:25
Speaker
She was really at the heart of the developing conflict between the Lancasters and the Yorks. So there you have Margaret, and then you have Circe also portrayed as this lioness. You know, Margaret was a she-wolf, then if Circe comes from the House of the Lion, as the Lannisters do, then she's definitely portrayed as a lioness.
00:38:47
Speaker
if you see their familial banners as being symbolic of their personalities. She's definitely determined to preserve power for her family. She leads for her children. She keeps them in power by any means necessary. And of course, she does bring her son Joffrey to the throne. Joffrey is another very interesting character.
00:39:09
Speaker
in Martin's books. God, you love to hate this kid. And he is admittedly the reincarnation of Richard II, who, if you remember, I was telling you about earlier, he became the heir to Edward III. And he was just a mess up from day one. He was only 10 years old when he took the throne, but he was the rightful heir. So he was another boy king, just like Joffrey.
00:39:36
Speaker
He was also, according to history, a particularly nasty piece of work. He was inexperienced and impetuous. He was an all-around rather odd individual, which I think doesn't even go anywhere near where Martin took the character of Joffrey in the book, but that's okay because it's fiction.
00:39:57
Speaker
Richard II was believed to have had some sort of personality disorder. And if you consider the type of things that Joffrey did, especially with the bow and arrow to our poor prostitute character, then I would definitely imagine that Joffrey suffered from some type of psychological personality disorder as well. So
00:40:20
Speaker
Richard ruled from 1377 to 1399 when he was deposed by Henry of Ballingbroke. If you remember, he was the son of John of Gaunt. He took the throne as Henry IV. And he, of course, left Richard to die in his prisonment
00:40:36
Speaker
And if you want to see, I think I've mentioned it before, a really astounding performance by an actor, get your hands on PBS's production of the Hollow Crown series based on Shakespeare's history plays from this period. Richard II is the first of these productions. And God, the performance of Richard II is just...
00:41:01
Speaker
out of this world and I Ben Wishaw, Ben Wishaw, oh my goodness. Yeah, Ben Wishaw's performance is crazy good. So yes, do yourself a favor and watch that. Actually, after this podcast, you might want to watch the entire series because it covers the entire beginning part of this Roars of the Roses period. So yeah, you should probably do that.
00:41:25
Speaker
because it's gonna relate and you're gonna be watching Shakespeare, which is also gonna be awesome. So do that.
00:41:32
Speaker
Anyway, back to Joffrey. So, okay, this is another huge spoiler. Don't listen if you don't want to hear out. Joffrey Brathian slash Lannister's fate. Yes, he gets it. Really, really good he gets it. And Martin has stated that Joffrey's death was actually taken directly from the earlier death of another heir to the English throne by the name of Eustace of Bologna.
00:42:00
Speaker
who actually died around Joffrey's age in 1153 at a banquet, you got it, eating a pie, which is exactly how Joffrey died. Eustace Bloem was also a similarly bratty kid. His father was King Stephen. He had been at war for 20 years with the daughter of his predecessor, Henry I.
00:42:23
Speaker
She had actually been named his heir, but she'd been prevented from taking the crown. Her name is Empress Matilda. She's a very interesting character. I want to do a podcast solely on her. But anyway, she was not being able to inherit the crown, and so King Stephen was at war over who was going to get to be king after that.
00:42:47
Speaker
And Eustace was the heir if Stephen won. So Eustace, basically after that, went to war with Matilda's son for the rights to the crown. So Eustace arrived at this monastery for a banquet.
00:43:05
Speaker
Because he was a little turd, he had to go and ransack the town for money and goods to support his campaigning and all this stuff. At the dinner, he stole the food from the monks. He was a totally disrespectful little jerk. And then he took a bite of the pie and he began to choke. He proceeded into hysterics and he promptly died.
00:43:29
Speaker
Poisoning was, of course, suspected by many of his enemies. The monks actually believed it to be the wrath of God punishing him for his behavior, but after he died, of course, the war could end, and Matilda's son was actually accepted by Stephen as the next heir, Matilda's son being Henry II, who would begin the line of Plantagenet kings who would lead us to the War of the Roses.
00:43:59
Speaker
And if you want to know more about Henry II and his family, who are also, wow, extremely interesting, watch the play The Lion and Winter. It's awesome. The movie version with Catherine Hepburn is amazing. Just that's another really great one to watch. So, yeah, that is Joffrey and his comparisons to Richard's the second venue States of Beloin.
00:44:27
Speaker
Then we have some other characters like Robert Baratheon who is very similar to Edward IV. If you guys remember Edward IV was the Yorkish king who seized power from the Mad King Henry VI.
00:44:48
Speaker
similarly to how Robert Baratheon sees his power from the Mad Targaryen king. And then Edward IV is a good leader, just as Robert Baratheon is a good leader, he leads his armies well, all of that stuff is fine, but both of them later on in their reigns are haunted by their personal demons, more specifically being drinks and women.
00:45:15
Speaker
So, yeah, Robert Baratheon and Edward IV have quite a lot in common. But when it comes to young Edward IV, when he's, remember, he starts fighting for his father, who is the one who brought up this whole conflict, and he's like, yo, I gotta fight for my dad. My dad should be the rightful king, right? We should take over rule from these Lancasterians. It shouldn't be House Lancaster, it should be House York, right?
00:45:44
Speaker
So he's fighting these wars for his father, his father dies, all of a sudden he becomes the king. He has to lead these armies because now it's supposed to be his turn. So young Edward IV is really a lot like young Robb Stark in the world of Westeros, right? Young Robb Stark, he has to become the leader of House Stark after his father Ned. Spoiler is beheaded.
00:46:09
Speaker
And so he's in charge of an army all of a sudden, even though he's barely a teen, you know, out of his teen years, he becomes a highly successful general leading campaigns against the Lannisters. And this is exactly what Edward IV was thrust into when the War of the Roses began.
00:46:29
Speaker
And another interesting parallel, Rob Stark also even marries unwisely a girl of basically no royal lineage while he's on campaign.
Historical Events that Inspired Game of Thrones
00:46:41
Speaker
This is almost exactly what Edward IV does. And this really royally pisses people off.
00:46:49
Speaker
And this is the same thing that happens to Rob. Unfortunately, Rob is spoiler alert, brutally murdered because of it. And Edward IV actually has a revolt that goes up against him because of this betrayal as it's seen by his allies. But never mind that, he defeats them, he becomes the king anyway.
00:47:16
Speaker
So we talked a little bit about him before. He rules from 1461 to 1483. And oh, the only other thing I wanted to say about Edward IV is that Edward IV is like six feet four inches tall, which
00:47:32
Speaker
is insane if you are, if you're familiar with the way that humans have grown in the last couple thousand years. We didn't used to be this tall and so someone in this time period being six foot four inches tall is kind of crazy. Edward is huge.
00:47:51
Speaker
So he has he's quite a looming figure in history at the time. He's also very handsome and very affable. And so that's another thing that he just has in common with young Rob Stark, besides the fact that he gets to become the King of the North. And Rob Stark gets to die and be beheaded and
00:48:11
Speaker
paraded around on the back of a horse with his wolf's head on top of his own, which was not a very happy sight for me, a big Robb Stark lover, because gosh, was he dreamy, you know? Anyway, moving onward, that was Edward IV and Robb Stark.
00:48:31
Speaker
The only other thing I'm going to talk about today, speaking of Rob Stark, is everyone's favorite episode. The super happy cheerful made me feel really good inside. Red wedding. You knew it was coming, people. Again, spoiler, please leave if you don't want to know what the red wedding is. But yeah, the red wedding is the episode where everyone dies.
00:48:57
Speaker
And it was crazy. It's the most amazingly insane thing that happens on the show. And The Red Wedding is actually inspired by some real life events out of Scottish history, which Martin admits Scottish history was a huge inspiration for him in the series because it is so brutal and bloody.
00:49:20
Speaker
And so out of all of the research he did, that's one of the things that has inspired him to be so ruthless with the characters that we love on screen. And so, for instance, the Red Wedding is based on two events in Scottish history. One is an event called the Black Dinner of 1440.
00:49:42
Speaker
And this took place in the court of the Scottish King James II, even though he was only 10 years old at the time, so he really didn't have anything to do with it. But the people who were in charge of his court, mainly his Lord Chancellor, basically had some beef with a clan called the Douglases. They were called the Black Douglases.
00:50:07
Speaker
was kind of getting out of hand. They were really threatening to James II's court for some reason. And so his Lord Chancellor decided to invite the heads of the Black Douglas to dinner. And of course, this was actually only like a 16-year-old boy at the time and his little brother. But apparently they were super intimidating.
00:50:35
Speaker
because in the middle of dinner, all of a sudden, somebody brings a platter with a bull's head on it out and places it in front of the brothers. And the bull's head is a symbol of death at the time in this culture. And a single drum begins to sound. Drums, drums in the deep. And the boys were promptly dragged out of the hall and beheaded.
00:51:04
Speaker
by their hosts. Ouch. So that was one inspiration for the Red Wedding. The other one is the Glencoe Massacre, which is a fairly well-known event. It took place in 1692. I remember reading a book about this when I was like
00:51:20
Speaker
money or something like that. And yeah, it was insane to me the entire event and it really struck a chord and sort of stuck with me. But basically the gist of it is that the McDonald's, the leading family of the McDonald clan of Glencoe, were slaughtered in their sleep along with others in their village.
00:51:45
Speaker
By their guests, it was actually a detachment of mostly lowland troops under the command of Robert Campbell, who had been staying with them for like 10 days. They rose up in the middle of the night and started slaughtering their hosts.
00:52:03
Speaker
And the order to do this had actually come from King William of King William and Mary at the time, who had just sort of taken over rule of England. Him and his secretary of state wanted to make an example of the McDonald's for the rest of the Highlanders, who had also taken part in the first Jacobite uprising.
00:52:27
Speaker
And they had given all of these Highlanders a chance to make up for being involved in the uprising and to sign their support for King William. And the Highland clans had basically all done this, said, OK, fine. The McDonald's had done this, but they'd done it kind of late.
00:52:49
Speaker
And so they decided, because it had taken them so long to be able to sign their oath of allegiance, that they would be made an example of. So Campbell and his men went to Glencoe, and due to Scottish hospitality laws and traditions, they were invited in to the McDonald's house given
00:53:09
Speaker
food and shelter and taken care of because that was part of the culture and they were you know treated as guests which was an honored relationship at the time in this culture and they just
00:53:25
Speaker
decided to shat right on top of that and they betrayed their hosts and rose up against them and killed them all, which in Scotland this type of betrayal is seen as worse than any other type of normal murder. This was like really super bad. So they killed 38 men, women, and children in the massacre and they left another 40
00:53:53
Speaker
to die of exposure as they fled some completely naked into the Highlands in the middle of winter. So this is a particularly awful type of death that they also
00:54:08
Speaker
let these people suffer after chasing them and burning their homes. So, yeah, that was kind of the opposite of what happened in the Red Wedding. Martin says he sort of flipped it around where it was the host killing the guests.
Future Topics and Closing Remarks
00:54:23
Speaker
But anyway, yes, it was those two events in history that inspired that lovely piece of plot in the Lord, sorry, that's Lord of the Rings, in the
00:54:38
Speaker
Game of Thrones world and on that lovely and happy note I'm gonna have to end the podcast because it's almost an hour long and I just don't have time to talk about anything else but these were the main things and events and people that I actually did want to cover today as Game of Thrones relates to the
00:55:00
Speaker
specific period of history surrounding the Wars of the Roses and the English monarchy in the medieval world. There's so many other things that we could go on and talk about and I think on another podcast I will
00:55:17
Speaker
attempts to explore the entire plot line with Daenerys Targaryen and her character because she is involved with an entirely different part of Westeros throughout the series. She represents a very different type of character and different period in history and different place in the world. There's a lot of ancient cultures that have snuck their influence into her storyline. There's some classical cultures
00:55:46
Speaker
There's even, if you look at the Dothrakis, there's this great Eastern influence. And so there's just so much to talk about as far as that part of the story is concerned. So that's going to be a whole different thing. And then if you want, you could still go up to Rob Stark, not Stark, you could still go up to Jon Snow's story and there's a whole lot of stuff you could talk about as far as prehistory and
00:56:15
Speaker
the Norse and there's just a lot of different cultural influences happening there as well.
00:56:22
Speaker
And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of great material here for further podcasts, and I'm really excited about that. But for now, I hope that you guys enjoyed learning a little bit more about the historical and cultural inspirations for the Game of Thrones and the type of things that George RR Martin has decided to use as inspiration from history for a lot of the plot and the characters for this
00:56:51
Speaker
series, which is just such an amazingly written piece of work.
00:56:58
Speaker
So entertaining, so enthralling, and just a wonderful exploration of human nature and history put together in this wonderful high form of art. So I know I am super excited to catch up, watch season five, and then season six as soon as humanly possible. So don't spoil me in anything you write in response to this. First, anything past season four, I will come after you.
00:57:28
Speaker
And don't spoil it for anyone else either. So thank you so much for listening. I'm trying to think if there's anything else I want to say today, but I don't think there is. This has been a really fun podcast. And I wrote it kind of in a fury storm in the last couple of days after I discovered that documentary. And I highly recommend you go out and watch that because it's really well done.
00:57:53
Speaker
And so I just kind of had to sit down and record this and get this all off my mind while I could, while I was still in kind of Game of Thrones mania. And so there's nothing else that I'm going to mention at all even on the podcast right now I'm just gonna
00:58:09
Speaker
get going and let you guys enjoy the rest of your day. So catch you next time on episode 27 of the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in to the struggling archeologists guide to getting dirty. Remember you can contact me through email at guide to getting dirty at gmail.com or you can write to me on Twitter at struggling arc or
00:58:32
Speaker
either of my blogs, jennifermcniven.com, or on Tumblr at thestrugglingarchaeologist.tumblr.com. So many ways. So take care, my lovelies. We will talk to you next time, and thank you so much for listening once again. I will play you out with the Game of Thrones theme in epic style if you are ready. Yes.
00:59:14
Speaker
I need like drums or something. This is really lame without them. Geez, gotta get some drums next time. All right, that's all for now. McNiven out!
00:59:53
Speaker
Do you want coffee?
01:00:07
Speaker
This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com