Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Johnny Reb Ain't Got No Ale! - Episode 8
47 Plays11 years ago
Welcome Back Listeners! Ready for another exciting episode of The Struggling Archaeologist’s Guide to Getting Dirty?
Well get ready for our newest installment “Johnny Reb Ain’t Got No Ale!” (You guessed it, it’s our Civil War episode!)
I thought I’d do a Civil War podcast in honor of the 150th Anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg that just passed. Would have been nice to have it out July 1,2, or 3 wouldn’t it? Well, I was on vacation so deal with it (joking, love you guys!). Better late than never right?
There’s still time to learn all about what’s going on in Civil War archaeology, from underwater excavations to prison camps to the recovery of human remains from battlegrounds such as Antietam. And if you have an opinion on the controversial practice of relic hunting then I’d like to hear it (yeah brace yourself for a bit of a lecture… no offence to my hobbyists and collectors out there!), if you’d like to share your thoughts please leave a comment on our new facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/GuidetoGettingDirty) or email me at [email protected]!
Oh yeah- I told you I was drinking a Chamberlain Ale and here’s my proof! And next to my favorite General’s beer is the man himself, hopefully resting in peace as my nephew and I paid our respects… If anyone ever makes it up to Brunswick, Maine make sure to check out the little cemetery next to Bowdoin College where he and his family are buried. The Chamberlain museum is directly across the street from the entrance to campus as well. Both worth a visit (yeah, Maine’s pretty cool too I guess, you might want to stay for a bit and have some lobstah!)
For some other cool pics from my travels to Chamberlain's grave, Gettysburg, and Antietam go check out this episode's original blog post
That's all for this Yankee, peace out my nerds!
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Yeah.
Jenny's Return and Introduction
00:00:22
Speaker
Well, if it isn't that darn guy to get in dirty podcasts back again, here comes Jenny, ready to stir up the pot and get people talking about archaeology and history. But what could she possibly want to talk about this week after having spent so much time discussing ancient Egypt and then disappearing for like a month while she was traveling?
American History and Civil War Discussion
00:00:46
Speaker
I wonder, hmm, anything been going on lately in the history of America? Hmm.
00:00:52
Speaker
Oh wait, you know what? I heard that the first couple days of July were kind of special this year. Gee, I don't know what was going on then. I'm not too sure about American history, but I think it might have had something to do with that Civil War that was fought, you know, with those people from the North and those people from the South, and then there was this big battle.
00:01:17
Speaker
And, like, lots of stuff happened. Oh my god, yeah,
150th Anniversary of Gettysburg
00:01:22
Speaker
that's right. It was the 150th anniversary of Gettysburg, yo!
00:01:27
Speaker
So let's talk about it. Yeah, so hi. Hi guys, it's Jenny. As I'm sure you've figured out, this episode is going to be Civil War-centric because we have recently just celebrated the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, which took place on July 1st through 3rd, 1863, in the midst of the Civil War.
00:01:52
Speaker
Now, I think I mentioned in the last episode that the Civil War is a big obsession of mine, I guess you could call it, in my youth. I don't know if you could call me a Civil War buff because it's been a long time since I've had my head buried in all of my Civil War books, but I used to be. And I still retain a fair bit of that information, I'd like to hope at least.
Civil War Archaeology Developments
00:02:15
Speaker
So, since I'm an archaeologist now, not just a historian,
00:02:19
Speaker
I thought we could talk about not only the Civil War, but Civil War archaeology as it stands today, and some things that have been going on, kind of what the deal is with that, anything new and exciting coming on in the news, and just, you know, information for anybody who is interested in getting involved with doing some archaeology relating to Civil War sites.
00:02:43
Speaker
So I think we're going to have a fun episode today, a fun epi. So I'm going to start calling him now. Yeah, I just made that up, trademarked epi. And let's get started. Well, howdy, y'all. Welcome to the year 1863. This once great country has been split in twine and is in the midst of a civil war.
00:03:13
Speaker
For two a year now, President Abraham Lincoln has fought to keep the Union unified.
00:03:22
Speaker
and to end the scourge of slavery. But the South has resisted it. They have split asunder. They have succeeded in hopes that they may preserve their state's rights, which includes the practice of slavery and whatever else they feel they must do. They have been led by Jefferson Davis.
00:03:47
Speaker
And at this point in time Abraham Lincoln has just issued an Emancipation Proclamation Specifying that throughout the Southland the slaves are to be free But the South says no, no Abraham we will fight you
00:04:06
Speaker
and we will meet you on hallowed grounds in the southern part of Pennsylvania in a small sleepy town called Gettysburg for a great battle to decide the fate of the war.
00:04:26
Speaker
And so it was 150 years ago that the Battle of Gettysburg determined the course of the war, which obviously ended pretty well for us Northerners. And not so well for those poor Southerners. But anyway, it's all history now, isn't it?
00:04:44
Speaker
And so we still gather at the Gettysburg battlefield and other battlefields across the country to remember the sacrifices made to pay homage to the brave men and women who took part in the battle for America, basically.
Jenny's Family Obsession with Civil War
00:05:01
Speaker
And so, yeah, we just had the 150th anniversary, July 1st through 3rd this year. I really wish I could have gone. Gettysburg is one of my favorite battlefield sites to visit. I've probably been there maybe six, seven times. My family who traveled took a lot of road trips during my youth down south to different battlefields, a revolutionary era and civil war.
00:05:26
Speaker
But mostly Civil War, my whole entire family, you see, is history obsessed. We're all history nerds. Every single person in my immediate family has went to college to study history. My parents both have degrees in history. My younger brother just got his master's to be a high school history teacher. And my older brother also went to college and studied history. And I myself have a degree in age and history. So you see, it runs in the familia.
00:05:54
Speaker
But anyway, yeah, we took a lot of trips down south, a lot of road trips, and we visited all of the Civil War battlefields that we could get our hands on. We rented books to read in the car to
00:06:04
Speaker
learn about the history, and so I grew up with a really great appreciation for the sights of these battles and events in American history. And so I'm really glad to see that when this anniversary rolled around, there was a lot of publicity surrounding it. There were large reenactments at the battlefield, and there seemed to be a pretty good campaign of public awareness and remembrance for the event. And I just wish I could have been there. But alas, I was not.
00:06:35
Speaker
But anyway, yeah, Gettysburg is a pretty impressive park. It's run by the National Park Service now and it's a really beautiful place. The town of Gettysburg is literally just adorable and the site itself is very big. There's a lot to discover and to see there. If you've never been before, please go.
00:06:56
Speaker
Not only is it great to walk the grounds and to get a feeling for what happened, but there's a lot that you can learn so much. There are over 1,400 monuments and markers covering the battlefield explaining the course of those three days and what happened there.
00:07:15
Speaker
and it's pretty awesome to see and to feel. It's like a spiritual place. It's like my mecca, kind of. So anyway, yeah, I was thinking we could talk a little bit about Civil War archaeology because that is something that I find very interesting.
New Focus in Civil War Archaeology
00:07:30
Speaker
I've done a little bit of work on battlefield archaeology and my thesis site in Florida actually does have a Civil War component itself because there was a skirmish there between Confederate and Union soldiers over use of the mill and my
00:07:45
Speaker
My slave village that I've been excavating was potentially used by the Confederates as a base for a little while, so I do have a little bit of experience there. So yeah, obviously my historical interests bleed into my archaeology interests, so anytime in the future I would get the chance to work on a civil war site, I would be super thrilled. It's not all just battlefield archaeology, there are a lot of other sites
00:08:14
Speaker
that people are working on, especially now, you are starting to see a lot more focus on some of the lesser known or glorified parts of the war, like campsites or hospitals.
00:08:28
Speaker
things like that where we have a little bit more of a chance to get some insight into the everyday lives of the soldiers and other aspects of battle such as medical practices and the effects of the war physically on the human component, obviously the soldiers who experienced it. So I think that's really interesting. I'm excited to see things coming out of those studies now.
00:08:54
Speaker
I didn't put out an episode for the last month because I've been home on vacation, hanging out with my family in New York, had a family reunion up in Maine, so I was on the beach getting a tan. When I was home, my mom gave me an article that she'd found in the local paper.
00:09:13
Speaker
about the remains of a Civil War soldier, which were discovered at Antietam, found to be a New Yorker, like us, and who was actually returned to the Saratoga National Battlefield for a proper burial several years ago. And she had just discovered, she'd found, she'd take the clipping out of the newspaper, you know, it was so cute. Like, it was like three years ago for me, and she forgot to send it to me. So she just gave it to me. She's like, oh yeah, I found this.
00:09:41
Speaker
Do you think it's really cool? So yeah, I did think it was pretty cool. I'm amazed that we're still finding the remains of Civil War soldiers, but not that amazed, obviously, because there's still a lot going on at Civil War sites. It's only been 150 years, you know?
00:09:57
Speaker
So yeah, and then that soldier who was founded Antietam recently is one of two, I believe. I believe there was another soldier discovered recently who was from the Irish Brigade and was also able to be reburied, which I think is a really nice tribute to those people that we find. And so yeah, there's still stuff going on in civil archaeology. It's pretty cool. So let's see, I was trying to think about what we could talk about.
00:10:27
Speaker
as far as that goes, and there are several important components to what archaeology has to do with war that I thought should be mentioned. One obviously is why we do it, and so like I talked about earlier, discovering about the lives of soldiers, the conditions, the events themselves obviously are important too.
00:10:50
Speaker
Archaeology is about learning and about improving our understanding and appreciation for the past and unfortunately this sometimes especially in battlefield sites can get mixed up with a practice called relic hunting
Archaeology vs. Relic Hunting
00:11:09
Speaker
And for any of you guys out there listening who are more just sort of amateur historians or archaeologists and you're really into collecting, I'm not bashing collecting. I understand totally what's cool about it and why you might want to have a piece of the history that you love so much. But I thought we should talk a little bit about the long-standing practice of looting, metal detecting, and picking.
00:11:36
Speaker
which has come into the news a lot lately actually. It's been happening a lot and there's actually a couple television shows now that are kind of about this sort of practice in a way. It's not all the same thing. Some people come into it with totally honorable intentions and some people don't. So anyway, Civil War sites have been victim to looting ever since the Civil War. So
00:12:01
Speaker
A lot of these sites have been left from that practice without much of the material record and the context that it came in that would have revealed a lot of the story about what happened there to those of us who would like to study it.
00:12:16
Speaker
A lot of it gets taken from the field by collectors and sold or kept as a keepsake for them. And like I said, I kind of understand this. I mean, I love history. My husband loves history so much. He's obsessed with this British battle during the Zulu Wars called the Battle of Isanduana, which took place in 1879 in South Africa.
00:12:40
Speaker
And he's just obsessed with it. He's so fascinated by it. I think it's like his dream to one day own a Martini Henry breech-loading rifle that was used at the battle. I think he would die a happy man if he could just hold one, you know? Just to have that connection to this part of history that he is so interested and awed by.
00:13:07
Speaker
So yeah, I totally get that. But the problem with taking artifacts off of sites for archaeologists is that without the proper process and documentation and studying, we can't learn anything from them. And then they're gone. And who knows what happens to them after that. So nobody benefits except the person who has the item.
00:13:30
Speaker
And as great as it is to have the item, it's a little bit selfish maybe to the rest, to the scientific or historical world who could have used that in learning all of this important stuff and in sharing that information with the public.
00:13:48
Speaker
But anyway, there's, you know, so I think there's a difference. There's a huge difference between battlefield archaeology and relic hunting. Archaeology obviously is a scientific discipline. We're extremely disciplined in how we excavate and how we collect things and document them. And what we do with them afterwards is for the public benefit.
00:14:07
Speaker
And the benefit for actual excavation at Civil War sites comes from what relationships between the artifacts within a spatial and temporal context can tell us about the history of the event and also the people involved in it.
00:14:22
Speaker
And it provides the opportunity for the preservation of these artifacts. And in many cases, they're still made available to the public to continue our education and appreciation of Civil War history. So yeah, and like I said, when artifacts are just sort of ripped from the ground in their depositional context, removed without documentation and sold, that doesn't really do anybody good except the people who are profiting, I guess, from it.
00:14:50
Speaker
And to be clear, it's not the intention of archaeologists to dig up the whole material record of the Civil War and remove it from the hallowed grounds where it's been for the last 150 years. We don't go to every battlefield and meticulously excavate the entire thing. In most cases, federally protected battlegrounds have never actually been excavated, but they have tried to remain as protected and intact as possible
00:15:18
Speaker
with whatever remains of the events that have survived.
00:15:22
Speaker
still intact under the ground. And actually instances where archeology has become involved in battlefield preservation are most often when like lesser known areas affected by the war are in danger of destruction, by new construction, like CRM archeology obviously is a very common place where we actually find parts, civil war sites that we didn't know about or
00:15:50
Speaker
uh yeah haven't been protected by being part of the publicly protected property. And then also we also find places sometimes just from historical research that we didn't know about previously and hadn't had a chance to investigate and so then we can survey and then we can discover that it actually is a relevant civil war site and then we can protect it.
00:16:12
Speaker
So yeah, this happens, like there's lots of examples. Historical records a couple of years ago prompted this famous forensic archaeologist named James E. Starr from George Washington University to lead a dig at the Daniel Lady Farm in Gettysburg, which was the site of a, it served as a hospital during the battle. And it was also the headquarters of General Richard Ewell's company of 10,000 men.
00:16:40
Speaker
And along with the Gettysburg Battlefield Preservation Association, they did a day to actually try and locate the remains of two Confederate soldiers believed to have been buried at the site. And they used GPR, Ground Penetrating Radar Survey. They also used cadaver dogs and then excavation techniques, obviously. And from that, they were able to actually recover human remains as well as artifacts from the events surrounding the battle. So, and this project actually,
00:17:09
Speaker
had to be arranged with a lot of secrecy due to the fear of leaks leading to relic hunters scouring the grounds and potentially disturbing the graves of these soldiers. So yeah, not good stuff. We don't want that. Especially when there are human remains involved, we want them to be handled as professionally and respectfully as possible.
00:17:29
Speaker
This does not always happen when someone who is not trained comes across them. Unfortunately, there was an event in 2011 in Missouri where a local man who was known to routinely search for Civil War relics, even though he called himself an amateur archaeologist,
00:17:47
Speaker
was actually prosecuted for finding and removing several bones belonging to a Confederate soldier at Wilson's Creek National Battlefield in Springfield. And that battle was on August 10, 1861. The man utilized his knowledge of erosion processes to search a creek bed known to have seen heavy action in the battle where he did discover the remains of the soldier. And then he took the bones.
00:18:14
Speaker
Big no no. So I don't know if he felt bad about it or that he found out after the fact that what he did was actually illegal but at that point he did send the bones to the park service through a different source. I don't know exactly how that worked but they discovered who he was obviously in the end.
00:18:35
Speaker
and they charged him and the settlement cost him over $5,000 and it also landed him 60 hours of community service at the very battlefield that he had pilfered. So just a warning to anyone out there thinking of going metal detecting or looking for artifacts on a civil war site, it is illegal if it is a public owned property.
00:19:00
Speaker
So don't do it. So yeah, stuff like that happens. Now, you know, this isn't the case every single time. Civil War soldiers' remains have been discovered pretty regularly, especially now that a lot of battlefields have been preserved and fixed up by the Park Service and are now historical sites and national parks.
00:19:24
Speaker
They have millions of history lovers and tourists touring them every year. And a lot of the times park goers are finding actual artifacts or remains that have been uncovered by erosion, animal disturbances like the bioturbation of rodent burrows, or the results of landscaping at the site, lawn mowing, plowing, that type of thing.
00:19:46
Speaker
So yeah, a couple examples. In 1996, an intact skeleton was found at the railroad cut area of Gettysburg by a tourist who also happened to be a park ranger. Lucky. And in 2009,
00:20:01
Speaker
A contractor digging a utility trench in Franklin, Tennessee discovered the remains of a Civil War soldier as well. And then there were two recently discovered soldiers at the battlefield of Antietam, one who was the New Yorker sent back home and the other who was from the Irish Brigade.
00:20:19
Speaker
Thankfully, in these cases, the discovery was immediately reported to park officials or police who were able to properly excavate the area and provide a reburial for the individuals who were discovered. If you're ever on a battlefield and you see something, say something to a park ranger, don't just take it.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would hope when it comes to human remains that even most collectors or relic hunters wouldn't go there. I mean, it's human remains, have some respect, people. So, you know, I don't think this is the common practice, but when it comes to artifacts, it can get totally ruthless and that does happen a lot.
00:21:06
Speaker
So yeah, it gets ugly real quick y'all So this brings me to a story that an article in the New York Times an op-ed piece called Opening season on history that some of my friends posted on Facebook recently that I read which really shocked me So I thought I would talk about it here for a minute
00:21:28
Speaker
So the piece is by an archaeologist named Taft Kaiser, or Kisser, I'm not sure. And it's actually about something that in the archaeology world is a huge problem, not just on Civil War sites, but all over the world. And this happens especially a lot in the Middle East, in Egypt, in a lot of our more classical sites. Obviously those aren't a problem in North America, but it does happen everywhere for the most part.
00:21:54
Speaker
And it's the practice of relic hunting as I was talking about. And in this case Taft is talking about organized relic hunting for profit and what a problem it is starting to become on archaeological sites in North America. So he talks about an incident that took place this March.
00:22:17
Speaker
at this super famous archaeological site called the Flower Do 100 Plantation, which is a plantation in Virginia and well known to any archaeology or anthropology student because it's been an extremely interesting case study that a lot of famous archaeologists kind of cut their teeth on and so there's been a lot of really great, great research and work done there that a lot of us have learned from.
00:22:42
Speaker
So, unfortunately, in March, a Texas man named Larry Cisna sold $60,000 worth of tickets for an artifact hunting competition that he was hosting at this famous site. And the Flower 200 site's ban is not just a
00:23:01
Speaker
in Antebellum's site. It spans from the Woodland Indian period to early colonization in the 1600s to the early days of slavery in Virginia and then to the Civil War. So it's a very long-lived site. It's got a lot of different components, right?
00:23:18
Speaker
Yeah, this guy basically had individuals pay him in order to go to the grounds, scour this famous archaeological site all over the place, and take their artifacts at will, out of the ground, without record or documentation of any of their original context.
00:23:35
Speaker
And so they all showed up. There was a whole bunch of them. They walked across the ground. They used metal detectors, whatever. They dug stuff up. They removed some 8,900 artifacts from the site dating from prehistory to 1864, which could potentially be sold on the historical relic market for $90,000.
00:23:58
Speaker
And then some of these artifacts, such as a copper bracelet used in African slave trading, which probably dates to the early 1600s that was taken there, could have revealed priceless information about this period and could have even shown the location of African graves at the site if it had been studied and discovered properly using archaeological methods instead of just taken willy-nilly.
00:24:25
Speaker
So apparently this practice, which is only technically legal on private property with the owner's permission, has increased and will only continue to increase as reality shows are glorifying this practice of digging for historical treasures and they're becoming more popular.
00:24:44
Speaker
So, people like Sisna, this guy, who's profited considerably from the practice, are finding ways to work the system, or like flat out just trick landowners of private property into granting them access to the land and the archaeological sites on them under false pretenses, and for no other reason than to plunder and profit from the history underneath them.
00:25:06
Speaker
And not much is really being done about this by local or state government to stand in their way or to increase the penalties for illegal relic hunting. So yeah, and at this site, I guess the site is owned by this really rich guy who owns this huge corporation, and he said he wasn't aware that this dig was going on, but he's not pressing charges, apparently. So I guess it kind of was illegal, but maybe it wasn't because, I don't know, it sounds like there was some type of deal there, I'm not sure. So...
00:25:36
Speaker
Anyway, the writer, Mr. Kaiser, goes on to emphasize that the problem here is not a problem with non-professionals or volunteers who view and work at archaeological sites as part of the process of preserving historical heritage along with professional organizations. We understand that. We respect you guys and people who really care and want to do it properly. We get that and we're really happy about that.
00:26:03
Speaker
Go you! But the problem is with people who blatantly disregard the proper channels to investigate and study archaeological sites in order to just say, hey, I have a real artifact on my mantle case, or maybe I just want to sell it and make a few bucks, or like Mr. Sista, make tens of thousands of dollars. So, yeah, it's very upsetting to people who have
00:26:28
Speaker
spent their lives learning how to do this the right way and for the right purposes to see it being just completely effed up so bad. So yeah, it's not just happening at archaeological sites. Civil War sites are also among the most common targets of relic hunting. There was, let's see, there's a lot of different
00:26:49
Speaker
instances of stuff like this. In 1997, two looters were sent to prison for digging up and removing 2,000 artifacts from the Petersburg battlefield. Gettysburg itself is under constant threat. It's a huge problem the Park Service is dealing with.
00:27:04
Speaker
Technically, the park is protected by the Archaeological Resource Protection Act of 1979, but park officials say that with all of the work they do to deter the relic hunters, there are still several incidents throughout the year at Gettysburg where they either find evidence of or perpetrators in the act of stealing or digging up artifacts from the battlefield.
00:27:25
Speaker
And you can't even take a metal detector onto the national park. The fine for even being in possession of one is $75. And if they actually find you metal detecting or digging and taking artifacts, you are in much bigger trouble. So don't do it. So yeah, so I guess that's my thing about
00:27:47
Speaker
relic hunting and stuff like that. I don't know. It's just not cool. It's okay to love history and it's okay to want to be connected to it through physical remains and physical artifacts. I get that. Just don't do it illegally. Come on. Do it the right way. Volunteer for a dig and then you'll get to be a part of the actual process of discovering that history yourself. Wouldn't that be better?
00:28:14
Speaker
Anyway, that's the soapbox of relic hunting and I'm getting off of it right now And now we're gonna talk about more archaeology stuff. Yeah, baby So I mentioned earlier that a lot of archaeological investigations now into Civil War era sites are being done on you know places like hospitals battlefield camps and Things like that
00:28:41
Speaker
But I bet you didn't know that the majority, well, maybe I don't know about the majority, but a lot of Civil War excavations going on right now are actually taking place under the sea. Under the sea. Darling, it's better now where it's wet to take it from me. Yeah. Yes, that's right under the sea. There's actually a very active maritime archaeological component to the Civil War.
00:29:10
Speaker
And so there's a lot of, you know, I think sort of in the beginning of the archaeological movement to study the Civil War, we spent a lot of time on the well-known battlefields, but now there are a lot, there's a lot to be learned from the maritime element of the Civil War. So yeah, there's a lot of exploration and discovery going on around the coast from, say,
00:29:39
Speaker
like North Carolina is very active down the coast of Georgia into Florida and in the Gulf on shipwrecks. A lot of them having to do with battlement runners, that type of thing. And so we have actually a lot of steamboats, that type of ship that had been used during the Civil War to run the coastlines. And yeah, a lot of them went down.
00:30:01
Speaker
There were scuffles, there were ships that disappeared, there were some very famous examples like the Battle of the Merrimack and the Monitor, and the famous wreck of the Hunley that have been pretty big deal on the news. And so yeah, a lot of underwater archaeology is being done now, which is pretty exciting. I have a little bit of experience with it, but not much. Definitely not something as cool as diving on a Civil War shipwreck.
00:30:30
Speaker
but my graduate school is in Pensacola, Florida and the Pensacola Bay is a very active shipwreck site so there are active investigations going on now I know in the bay for a Civil War steamboat that supposedly was lost there and so they're looking for it right now actually it is summer so yeah they're probably looking for it like literally right now
00:30:53
Speaker
But anyway, I'm saying a lot of this other stuff that they're studying now isn't mainly the search for soldiers' remains like we've been talking about, but a lot of it is searching for structural and artifactual evidence to help flesh out the story of what soldiers' lives were like, the conditions, that type of thing, medical practices and stuff like that.
00:31:20
Speaker
But with these shipwreck sites, especially the Hunley and the Monitor recently, they have gotten a lot of publicity because of the discovery of the remains of soldiers underwater at those sites as well who have been recently reburied. So yeah, so there's cool stuff going on under the sea as well as on the land. And a lot of
00:31:45
Speaker
I guess a lot of the stuff that we're looking at now is really in the realm of anthropology. So I'm really glad that archaeologists have been working more and more on these Civil War sites. And there's not just about the conditions and the people. It's also about, in some instances, rethinking our traditional models of battlefield events, because this isn't too far back in our nation's history. So and it was it was a heavily documented
00:32:15
Speaker
event in 1861-1865 when it was happening both documents and pictures people wrote down their own documents describing what happened but even still there's things that we can still discover that we didn't know or that we had misinterpreted or got wrong about
Archaeological Insights and Lesser-known Sites
00:32:35
Speaker
battles
00:32:35
Speaker
And a lot of this comes from the last couple years. There was a huge thing in archaeology about archaeological surveys at the Battle of Little Bighorn in Wyoming. Or is it Dakota, Montana? Dakota, Montana, Wyoming. Somewhere out there!
00:32:54
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't been to that part of the country. I'm sorry guys in the middle. I'm sure that your part of the country is really great. I just haven't made it there yet one day. Anyway, there was kind of a shockwave that ran through the archaeological community.
00:33:12
Speaker
when archaeological surveys at the battle site kind of told a completely different story than what we had previously thought from documents from the time to have happened there. So it kind of helped rewrite the history of Custer's Last Stand in 1876 when the 7th Cavalry and Custer were battling the Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho forces at Little Bighorn.
00:33:40
Speaker
and basically Custer's five companies were completely wiped out so yeah we have learned a lot about what happened in that instance from the archaeology that we didn't know previously and so some of this could be inspiration for future battlefield archaeology to kind of go into these battle sites and figure out more
00:34:05
Speaker
specifically and more detailed stories about the events of the battle so yeah that's the type of stuff that we're doing you know and a lot of people are studying lesser known sites now which is good because
00:34:21
Speaker
as important as Gettysburg and Petersburg and Fredericksburg and all the burgs were uh you know there's a lot of little known parts of the war that were extremely important and don't get the respect they deserve don't get the study don't get the public interest and that's what archaeology does man we study those sites we don't care we'll study the crap out of that site so yep
00:34:46
Speaker
So it's a good thing that we're doing it and it's a good thing that public interest in research into these sites seems to be increasing as time goes by, which is good. And which can obviously was seen at Gettysburg on July 1st through 3rd this year during the 150th anniversary.
00:35:05
Speaker
it was a big deal. So anyway, I don't have that much more about civil war archaeology right now. I have a friend who works, he's a civil war, basically civil war archaeologist, that's his specialty area. And he's worked on a bunch of sites and I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk
00:35:21
Speaker
to him and get back to you guys. Maybe we'll do an interview or something. I think he would have a lot of really interesting things to say about it and maybe some insight that you would find fascinating. So yeah, but there's also some other stuff I wanted to talk about on this episode that is more personal and I think you guys all think it's pretty cool. Okay? Very shaggy ending.
00:35:43
Speaker
Yeah, so I think most people in this country, if their families have been here for a couple generations, probably have some sort of connection to the Civil
Listener Engagement: Personal Civil War Stories
00:35:53
Speaker
War. It's only a couple generations ago anyway. So I always think it's fascinating to look into your personal history and the history of lesser known people, just your regular average guy who was a part of the war, and to find out about their experience and what they went through.
00:36:10
Speaker
So I have a couple personal connections that I can talk about and I'd love to hear if you guys have any as well. You can email me at guide to getting dirty at gmail.com or comment on our Facebook page. Struggling Archaeologist Guide to Getting Dirty is on Facebook as well. So yeah, I'd love to hear it because you know, this type of thing is my bag, baby. So okay, my two connections.
00:36:39
Speaker
So, since the movie Gettysburg and Gods and Generals came out, a lot more people are now familiar with the Civil War hero Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, who saved the day on the second day of Gettysburg at the Battle of Little Round Top by leading a bayonet charge down the end of the line.
00:37:01
Speaker
towards the Alabamians to stop them from taking the rear of the Union army by surprise, which is never fun, let's face it. And he saved the day by stopping their advance. And a lot more people obviously know about him now because of the movies, but I have always been a Chamberlain fan. He's like my main man.
00:37:21
Speaker
And this is because Chamberlain, who was from Maine, who led the 20th Maine in the Battle of Gettysburg and was later made a general when they thought he was going to die. Let's face it. But he deserved it anyway. Chamberlain was from Maine.
00:37:37
Speaker
And he was a professor at Bowdoin College in Maine, in Brunswick, Maine. And then he left to sign up to fight the war. And he was an extremely intelligent guy. He was an academic. He was a linguist. He was so super awesome. And he was a phenomenal writer. If you get the chance to read his memoirs about the event,
00:38:01
Speaker
I definitely would do that. His book, I think it's called The Passing of the Armies, is just amazingly written. It's like chilling and its rhetoric is so beautiful. It just makes, it just kills me.
00:38:16
Speaker
Anyway, he was from Bowdoin College and he returned to Bowdoin College, became the head of the college. I think he became like the mayor of the town. He was a big deal, right? And I've heard about him my entire life because my grandfather, who grew up in Boston, was a Bowdoin alumni. He went to Bowdoin and he loved it and they of course honored their hero, their grand
00:38:41
Speaker
master of everything in Brunswick, Maine, Mr. Chamberlain, or General Chamberlain, I should say.
00:38:48
Speaker
So that's my Chamberlain connection is that my grandfather and him shared Bowdoin College. I really wanted to go there actually. I toured and it's a gorgeous campus, but it's in the middle of Maine, which is really cold. And also I don't think they had a great, like the best theater program, which is what I wanted to do. But anyway, my cousin went there. So we remain Bowdoin people to this day. And also I used to work at a restaurant in Times Square.
00:39:16
Speaker
And Jeff Daniels, who fabulously portrayed Chamberlain in both Gettysburg and Gods in Generals, came in to eat at my restaurant once with his family, and he was super nice. And I actually delivered to his table an appetizer. It was a sampler, and I gave it to them, and I looked at Mr. Daniels, and he looked really tired.
00:39:38
Speaker
and he was just there to have a nice meal with his family so I didn't want to bother him but literally it took everything inside of me to not just blurt out like I love you as Chamberlain you're the best my god it's so good um yeah I mean I'm glad I didn't do that because I would have sounded like a freaking idiot but anyway I did serve him an appetizer once so he seemed like a nice guy
00:40:01
Speaker
And I really respect and admire his work as Chamberlain. And he's also done a lot. He loves the guy as well. Obviously he's very inspirational. And I think Daniel's donated a lot of money or raised money or something like that to get the Chamberlain Museum in Brunswick restored, which is in Chamberlain's actual house, which is also a really cool thing.
00:40:25
Speaker
So anyway, that's my Bowdoin connection. I actually was in Maine last week when I was traveling home and we did make a trip up to Brunswick to visit Bowdoin College and the grave of the man himself so I was just recently paying my respects to General Chamberlain and his family which is a beautiful little graveyard and I've been there a couple times and it's always nice to stop and chat and say hello and
00:40:53
Speaker
We're thinking of ya, Lawrence. So anyway, I'll put up a picture of that on the blog just so you guys can see that I actually was there. I'm not lying. So yeah, JLC all the way.
00:41:07
Speaker
Also, random side note, that is one of the things that actually got my husband and I together because he's a huge history buff as well. And when we first met, he asked me what type of stuff I was into and I said history. He said he really loved the Civil War and I was like, oh my gosh, me too. And then we were both like immediately, Josh Willard's Chamberlain, oh my god, I can't believe you know who he is.
Husband's Family Civil War Letters
00:41:31
Speaker
he's so amazing don't you just want to make out with him he's so awesome like good and uh yeah so after that conversation we were both pretty much hooked from that on so more about my husband actually his name is lee
00:41:47
Speaker
And he's from Vermont. He's a Vermonter. And his family actually has some very interesting ties to the Civil War as well. Now, I got my hands on some copies that his mother had of some correspondence that her grandfather, Julius Austin, or a great grandfather, sorry, rather,
00:42:10
Speaker
Julius Austin was a soldier in the Civil War. He was her great-grandfather and him and his two brothers-in-law George and Charles were all serving in the Civil War and they they wrote to each other and they wrote home about their experiences and my mother-in-law still has these letters which as a historian slash archaeologist
00:42:38
Speaker
kind of freaked me out like in a good way i was like ah the holy grail so i did a research project on them and discovered some really great things and i transcribed the letters which are kind of hard to read so i yeah i have all that information which is super cool so i thought i would share some of it with you so let's talk about these wonderful vermont men
00:43:03
Speaker
Oh, and by the way, random, um, at the moment, I am drinking a Shipyard Brewing Company Chamberlain Pale Ale in honor of the man Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain himself. Uh, yeah, Shipyard made, literally, they're a main company, by the way, they literally made an ale with Chamberlain's picture on it called Chamberlain Pale Ale.
00:43:30
Speaker
It's awesome! I didn't know it existed, actually, until I was in the middle of a liquor store with some friends in the middle of Florida. And I turned around and I saw Lauren Chamberlain's picture on the beer bottles.
00:43:47
Speaker
and I saw it said Chamberlain Pale Ale and I realized what it was and I literally screamed out loud like out of sheer excitement and shock and the every single person in the store stopped and like stared at me and and thought that I don't know something crazy terrible was happening like I don't know anyway that's how I discovered that Chamberlain Pale Ale existed and now I have a bunch of it that I brought home from Maine and I'm super excited to drink them
00:44:16
Speaker
Anyway, sorry, interlude, but now let's return to our story of the three Vermonters. So yeah, we start with Julius T. Austin of the Vermont Austens, and he was born in Hancock, Virginia in 1833, and he is my husband's great-great-grandfather. So, I think.
00:44:39
Speaker
Yes okay so him and his two brother-in-laws Charles and George Keith who are both from Rochester Vermont signed up to join the Union Army.
00:44:53
Speaker
in 1861. They were all volunteers, and so they were all young. Well, Julius was actually 29 years old. George and Charles, who were brothers, they were the brothers of Menorah Keith, who married Julius. They were 21 and 22 years old, so they were pretty young, right? They both signed up and were assigned to be privates in Vermont Company E,
00:45:21
Speaker
And because apparently they had extremely good skills with a rifle, they were both made sharpshooters. So they were part of Vermont Company E of the 2nd US Sharpshooters Unit. And so yeah, they were sharpshooters. Julius was not. He was a private in Company C of the 9th Vermont Infantry. So they kind of went their different ways during the war, but they kept in touch by writing letters.
00:45:48
Speaker
and they talk about you read the letters you can actually sort of follow what they're doing and some of the campaigns that the Union and the Vermonters were on during the Civil War so it's pretty interesting and unfortunately Julius didn't have that great of a time during the war he fell ill he was in a hospital he was in stuck in Virginia building fortifications and his unit the entire time he was there was under siege by Stonewall Jackson who he writes about in the letters
00:46:18
Speaker
And then he is taken prisoner, unfortunately, by Jackson's troops. And he is sent to Chicago and put in a soldier's prison for five months. And I feel pretty bad for Julius because everything I know about Civil War prisoner camps are that they are just absolutely awful places. So...
00:46:41
Speaker
I don't know much about where he ended up in Chicago, but I'd like to do some research about it to find out what the conditions were like for him there. Luckily, he was there for five months, and then he was released. And in 1862, November, he was released, discharged from duty, from an injury. And I don't know whether that injury happened in the siege when he was taken prisoner or what.
00:47:08
Speaker
but he was at the Battle of Petersburg, or no, sorry, his regiment went on to be engaged in a lot of important battles like Petersburg and Julius got to go home and I'm glad he got to go home because him and Menorah had a son named Fred who was an artillery
00:47:28
Speaker
artillery guy during World War one and He had a son named George or Gordon. Sorry Fred had a son named Gordon who was a major general in World War two and what he was a fighter pilot and he later went on to be very instrumental in the forming of NATO and he had a daughter named Betsy who had a son named Lee and That man is my husband
00:47:54
Speaker
So thank you, Julius. And I hope your days in the prisoner camp were not as terrible as I fear they might have been. So that's Julius. And then we go on to Charles and George, the brothers. They had a bit more action during the war. They were excellent marksmen, so they were sharpshooters. And they were at a bunch of important events.
00:48:19
Speaker
actually ended up at the Battle of Slaughter Mountain in Virginia, which is where we get the last letter from them in August of 1862. They also fought Stonewall Jackson at Culpeper, Virginia.
00:48:35
Speaker
And they ended up shortly after that in Gainesville, Virginia, where they were engaged in the Second Battle of Manassas. And I have a letter written by Charles 18 days before that battle. Him and his brother were engaged on August 29th, 1862 at Bull Run, fighting side by side.
00:49:00
Speaker
when Charles was killed in action. So his brother was there with him when he died, which I find extremely, extremely sad. And I'm very sorry for him. But his brother George did continue on for the rest of the war. He was engaged in over 25 major battles, including Antietam, Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, the wilderness, and Petersburg. And George Keith did survive the war.
Reflections on Slavery and Providence
00:49:28
Speaker
He was discharged in 1864, and he died in 1920. So that was the story of George and poor Charles Keith, Charles who died on August 29th, 1862. So I will be thinking of you, Charles, this upcoming August 29th, on the 151st anniversary of your death.
00:49:57
Speaker
So anyway, that is their stories which I think are interesting just to learn a little bit more about what some of the average guys, these guys were all farmers up in Vermont when the war started and I think that they all kind of felt a calling to help preserve the union and to end the practice of slavery which they write about a little bit which is why they all volunteered to go
00:50:20
Speaker
and I'm glad that they did. So you might find it interesting to hear some of their own words about their experiences. So I'm going to read you a little bit from their letters. They don't write with any punctuation whatsoever. So when I transcribed these, they were a little bit rough and they don't have very good spelling because they were just poor farmers who weren't terribly educated. But I think they actually have a pretty poetic style that I thought was really lovely when I read through them and transcribed them.
00:50:48
Speaker
So, let's see. First, here is a letter from Julius Austin, and he writes, Dear Father, Mother, Sister, and Brother, August 4th, 1862, Winchester, Virginia, I seat myself on the big chair of the ground to let you know how I get along. I have been unwell for a few days and been put on light duty. By tomorrow I think I shall be able to be at work.
00:51:17
Speaker
Our work is on building a fortification. It is a large one, and when they get done, I will give you a description of it. We move to Winchester after I wrote to you the next day from Clouds Mills.
00:51:28
Speaker
Let's see, he goes on, he talks about a friend that he saw, and then he was in the hospital because he was sick, and his brother-in-law George came to visit him, which I think is very nice. Good job, George. He goes on to talk about being stationed at Clouds Mills, and how they don't have any mail, so it might be hard to get word from his family. And let's see, there are about 3,000 men here and 50 guns.
00:51:58
Speaker
He says the alarm has been given twice since we have been here and once we were drawn out in line of battle before the rifle pits and stood there about an hour, then was ordered back to our quarters and laid on our arms the rest of the night. The cause of being called out was firing on the pickets by bushwhackers, but when we get the force done we think it will be safe.
00:52:19
Speaker
But now there are some afraid of old Jackson. I think they're talking about Stonewall Jackson here. He says it was very hot here today and dry. We had preaching here yesterday and very good to the text of Deuteronomy 20 chapter 1 or 21 verse. I have forgotten. It was very apt to the case. They had very good singing. The first hymn was welcome sweet day of rest and the other and crown him Lord of all.
00:52:48
Speaker
I want to have you write where to direct to George and Charles. George told me, but I've forgotten where it is. And now it is time to say goodbye. This from your most dutiful son and brother, Julius. Okay, so that's one letter from Julius, which is interesting. Then next we have a short letter from George and Charles' home. They write August the 11th, 1862, camp near Culpeper near Slaughter Mountain, Virginia.
00:53:19
Speaker
Dear friends at home, I take my pen to let you know how we do. We are well as usual and hope these few lines will find you the same. We were encamped near the battleground near Culpeper, near Slaughter Mountain. We left Falmouth last week's Sunday, and today is Sunday.
00:53:37
Speaker
The battlefield is covered with dead horses and graves. The fight was with some Jackson. Neither side could lick till we came up, then Jackson retreated. I don't think of anything more to write. Write soon as you get this, from your boys George and Charles.
00:53:56
Speaker
And he's referring to the Battle of Slaughter Mountain with Stonewall Jackson, which the Confederates think was more of a victory on their side, although George and Charles seems to think it was a little bit more of a draw. Alright, and this next one is my favorite. It's from George Keith. He writes on July the 15th, 1862.
00:54:20
Speaker
Dear friends at home, I take my pen to write a few lines to you, although I have not received any letter later than June the 8th, and I have written a number of times to you. I am getting quite well now, but I am not quite as strong as I was, so apparently he was sick. Charles was well the last I heard from him. I am yet at Alexandria Hospital. I am at work in the cookroom, but I shall go to my regiment in a few days.
00:54:49
Speaker
Right as soon as you get this, then I shall get it here. I went down in the wharf to see the Vermont regiment take the boat home past the guard as green soldiers." Oh, what is he saying? Sorry. It's hard to understand this stuff sometimes the way they write because there's no punctuation and the spelling is all off. So I'm just sort of interpreting the best I can. I think he's saying he went down to the wharf to see the Vermont regiment on the boat where his cousin, or his brother-in-law Julius was.
00:55:19
Speaker
He passed the guard because he was a green soldier who I believe is a Vermont sharpshooter. That's the reason why he could get on the boat and see Julius. He was glad to see him and he hopes he will have an easy time. Okay, so this is the cool part. He says, I do not have much time to talk and I will send you two newspapers with this letter. Mother, you may ask, why does not the war end? Why does not the boys come home?
00:55:49
Speaker
I suppose Abraham Lincoln himself does not know. This was a wicked nation, and God hardened their hearts against each other. The Lord is able to bring good out of evil, but he did not make the world in one day. But one thing is sure, slavery will go down if the war is not settled by a compromise. But we must trust the Lord and hope and pray for the best.
00:56:14
Speaker
I do not think of anything more to write, so I must bid you goodbye for this time. So this soldier boy closes by bidding you all goodbye. This from your son, George C. Keith." Aw, I love that part. Even for a poor, simple farmer, he had a really eloquent way of summing things up. And I love that he talked about Abraham Lincoln. I wasn't really sure how much your average soldier really
00:56:44
Speaker
Connected to the higher level of things going on during the war, you know about the fight to keep the nation together and and to Stop the practice of slavery and what Abraham was doing Lincoln was doing but I think he seemed to understand exactly what was going on and why he was there and so I'm I'm really glad that that I had this letter to remember him by
Emotional Impact of Civil War Letters
00:57:14
Speaker
and his brother Charles, who unfortunately would be deceased just over a month later. So anyway...
00:57:23
Speaker
Those are my Civil War letters from the Keith Brothers and Julius T. Austin. I would love to hear if anybody out there has something similar to share because it's this type of personal recollection and thoughts on the war that I think are really priceless to those of us who appreciate history and what happened during the Civil War. So anyway, I want to get emotional.
00:57:50
Speaker
to talk about anymore, I'll probably cry. I'm a very emotional person. My tear ducts are hardwired, so any emotion passes through my system and I just get teary. I cry at commercials with dogs, mostly, but yeah, you give me a good Civil War letter and I will weep. Speaking of that, it's a miracle I have not yet sung anything from the Civil War, the musical.
00:58:21
Speaker
There's a musical called The Civil War and yeah, I'm a big fan of it and you're really lucky that I haven't sang anything from it yet. But I don't know if any of you Civil War fans out there have read the letter by Sullivan Ballou to his wife. It's very famous. It's in the Civil War documentary by Ken Burns. He reads it.
00:58:43
Speaker
with a shokan farewell playing in the background and it's really really beautiful and if i think about it i will cry but they're they turn it into a song for the uh for the civil war frank wildhorn civil war musical and it's really pretty i'm tempted to sing it i won't i won't sing it i promise i can't help it
00:59:06
Speaker
Oh Sarah, my Sarah, I fear I must go. I'll leave you to move on alone. Sorry, okay, I'm done now. No, okay, I'm, I'm done. I'm not gonna read anymore. I won't read the real letter because then I will just be sobbing uncontrollably like when he says that part and he's like,
00:59:30
Speaker
Sarah, my love for you is deathless. It seems to bind me with mighty cables that nothing but omnipotence could break, and yet my love of country comes over me like a strong wind and bears me unresistibly on with all these chains to the battlefield. Oh, God. And I certainly am not gonna start playing Ashokan farewell and read his letter over it. That would be too much. That's not ex- No. I can't- No! No!
01:00:06
Speaker
Ah, okay. I have, I know, but few and small claims upon divine providence, but something whispers to me, perhaps it is the wafted prayer of my little Edgar, that I shall return to my loved ones unharmed.
01:00:22
Speaker
If I do not, my dear Sarah, never forget how much I love you, and when my last breath escapes me on the battlefield, it will whisper your name. Forgive my many faults and the many pains I have caused you, how thoughtless and foolish I have oftentimes been.
01:00:38
Speaker
How gladly would I wash out with my tears every little spot upon your happiness. But oh, Sarah, if the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you, in the gladest day and in the darkest night, always, always. And if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath.
01:01:02
Speaker
As the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by. Sarah, do not mourn the dead. Think I am gone, and wait for thee, for we shall meet again. Sullivan Blue was killed a week later at the first battle of Bull Run on July 21st, 1861. I am now crying. Thank you.
01:01:31
Speaker
Alright, alright. Enough sappy stuff for this episode. I sure that you are all sufficiently depressed enough for the time being.
Resources and Recommendations
01:01:40
Speaker
I don't need to go any further into anything concerning the Civil War that might bring feelings of depression or hopelessness to my viewers. So you're welcome for this ray of sunshine in your afternoon.
01:02:00
Speaker
Anyway, I hope you enjoyed our discussion on the Civil War. If you are interested in learning more about Civil War archaeology, I definitely recommend checking out, there's a lot of great books on the subject. There's a great one called Archaeological Perspectives on the American Civil War by Clarence R. Guyer and Stephen R. Potter, which I believe you can get on Amazon.
01:02:24
Speaker
And if you'd like to get involved or just do some more research, learn about digs that are going on having to do with the Civil War, there are a lot of resources you can use if you'd like to see what it's like and what people are studying now on archaeological Civil War sites. I definitely recommend checking out
01:02:44
Speaker
the Johnson's Island Project. They have their own website, I believe, through Heidelberg University, or they've been working in conjunction with Archaeology Magazine the last couple of years, so you can go to archaeology.org forward slash Johnson's Island.
01:03:02
Speaker
or the interactive portion of their website is interactive.archeology.org for a really great site devoted to an interactive experience of what the archaeological investigations into Johnson's Island, which was a Civil War prison,
01:03:22
Speaker
on Lake Erie in Ohio, on what's going on there. They've been studying for a couple of years. It's being led by Dave Bush of Heidelberg University, along with Archaeology Magazine and the Archaeology Institute of America. And they're documenting and excavating the Johnson's Island Civil War prison, which is very interesting, and that website is really awesome. It's got lots of great resources.
01:03:46
Speaker
Johnson's Island held more than 10,000 Confederate soldiers prisoner between 1862 and 1865. So it's one of those really interesting parts of Civil War history that you may not necessarily hear a lot about in the popular avenues, but that we are learning a lot more about now that there is archaeology being done. So definitely check that out and if you are interested in volunteering or being part of some type of
01:04:12
Speaker
archaeological dig in your community, I would definitely suggest checking out your local historical societies for information on anything going on near or around you. And just for fun, maybe, I don't know, if you're really into the Civil War, look up some reenactment info. I'm sure there's lots of organizations that do reenactments around battlefields throughout the country who would love to have some new members and I mean, that stuff looks like fun.
01:04:38
Speaker
Not only interesting, really educational, amazing experience, but God, that would just be so fun. So definitely check them out and good luck to you. If you're ever at the Battle of Gettysburg, perhaps next, you know, 50 years from now at the 200th anniversary, you'll see me there.
Conclusion and Feedback Invitation
01:04:59
Speaker
Maybe.
01:05:00
Speaker
And that's it for this episode of the Struggling Archaeologist's Guide to Getting Dirty. Thank you so much for listening to this Civil War-centric episode. I hope you enjoyed yourself, and I hope I didn't bore you too much with the reading of letters or recitation of poetic verse during this episode. But, you know, I'm a very artistic person, and a very romantic person, and it just got the best of me, so...
01:05:28
Speaker
Oh well. Anyway, any suggestions for future episodes, email me at guidetogettindirty at gmail.com, and I'd also love to hear comments and suggestions on our Facebook page. Just to prove to you that I was drinking a Chamberlain pale ale, I'll post a picture of myself on there for you, along with maybe a picture of me at his JLC's gray side. You know, he's my brother, so I gotta pay the respect.
01:05:58
Speaker
So anyway, you guys take care, and we'll see you next time. Peace! Oh, Frank Wildhorn, I love you. Oh, I can't resist. Brother, my brother. One blue and one gray. So what were the musical, folks? Check it out. MacNiven out!