Transcript
Speaker: Made on Zencastr. Because Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production and distribution process so easy.
Speaker: All the details are in the description. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Speaker: I am your host, Michael Millward. In this episode, Graham Skidmore, the CEO of Sath Solutions, and I are going to be discussing ethical AI and conscious leadership.
Speaker: Graham is based in Chicago in the United States, a city that I have visited only briefly. When I get the opportunity to visit Chicago properly, I will make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club.
Speaker: That is because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I get access to trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and all sorts of other travel related purchases.
Speaker: I have added a link with a built-in discount to the description so that you can also become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club and just like me, travel at trade prices.
Speaker: Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of the Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
Speaker: And probably good enough to share with your friends, family and work colleagues as well. As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Speaker: Hello, Graham. Hello, Michael. Thank you for having me. i really appreciate it. I'm looking forward to what I'm sure will be a very interesting conversation about ethical AI and conscious leadership. They're very important subjects.
Speaker: Please could we start by you giving me a little bit of an introduction to your career and your route towards setting up Seth's solutions. Yeah, absolutely. And I spent the first 21 years of my life doing the understanding myself through a very traditional lens, enjoyed the privileges that come with being a you know straight white male executive here in the United States.
Speaker: I understood and played the game the way that I thought I was supposed to, which was advance your career, make money, check the boxes, acquire stuff, you know and then you're supposed to be happy. The stuff. yeah The stuff, hey.
Speaker: I look around and yeah, I've acquired a lot of stuff. Never touch it, most of it. Yeah, believe me, I more than did my fair share of, you know, keeping the economy running, believe me. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, and then after 21 years, at the height of my success was at the height of my misery.
Speaker: And, you know, I was also, at you know, burned out. I was unhappy. And so I said, something's got to be wrong here with playing the game of life. I did things the way that I was told that I was supposed to. Right. I earned the money. I got the house. I got the cars. I got the stuff.
Speaker: But when I look in the mirror, I don't know who I see anymore. I don't like what I see. I don't like how I feel. Right. This is not an enjoyable existence. So something's got to give. That led to me leaving a career that I never thought that I would leave. The the organization I worked with never thought that I would leave either. You were the company man. Yeah. You know, I started there at you know, when we were at 400 people, I left when we were at 20,000, you know, I was a member of the C suite. I had various, you know, areas reporting to me. So, you know, I definitely was, you know, I was a corporate guy. There's no doubt about it. Right. And so then I said, all right, this has got to give. And so,
Speaker: I left. And, you know, at that time, I didn't you know understand myself as anything besides, you know, quote unquote normal, albeit, you know, misunderstood, quirky, knew and knew that I was different, but didn't necessarily know what that meant. Right. So you know the first thing I said is, OK, I'm so miserable, so I got to figure out my health situation because I just I can't go on to my next chapter of life until I and until I start feeling better and become a happier person again. And so that led me down, you know, very understanding myself through a very Western medicine lens, which then led me down the path of understanding myself through the lens of neurodivergency, you know, and then in some case and in many ways, it was ah it was a helpful lens. It gave me ah a vernacular to use. it It allowed me to put words to feelings and emotions that I, you know, maybe it struggled with lot, you know, and and gave me a way to try to understand myself. But then as I understood myself through that lens. And I also understood the downside to, for me anyway, of identifying too much with labels, right? Because then I boxed myself in and a lot of the, and I became the symptoms, so to speak. And so I said, well, this is crazy. You know, so then I started feeling worse again. And so then I went down the path of understanding myself through Eastern, indigenous and spiritual lenses and understanding myself as a spiritually gifted, you know, sensitive to energies, sensitive person, et cetera.
Speaker: I went from the first part of my life understanding myself through one lens. And at that time in my life with AI, right, I would have said like, oh, yeah, we should be replacing humans. Like, you know, this stuff is easy. The AI is the future. Now, after going through what I've gone through and recognizing how much of my personally what I lost, it wasn't aware of, didn't know because it was either conditioned out of me. I never got to chance to understand it, never got a chance to tap into it. Now that I I have a whole different sense of what the human potential is. And now I absolutely believe that that that AI should be serving humanity and should and that humanity should be spending its time investing in our in our agency.
Speaker: Yes. Some of the big names in technology is that we're going to AI out all the boring jobs. AI will do all the boring jobs without realizing that what they may see as a boring job may be something that someone else is very passionate about or is a stepping stone from that job to another job. Absolutely. We haven't quite worked out how AI is going to help mankind yet, really, have we?
Speaker: Not fully, right? I think up up to this point in time, we it's really been it's been more focused on efficiencies and cost cutting, you know increasing margins. And i mean the one thing that was that was became so apparent to me through my journeys, so I spent the last eight years then just getting to know myself And the one thing that that was totally that was very apparent to me throughout that whole journey was that the systems are broken, not the people. I mean, the fact that that there's this belief that humans, that we're all supposed to be this one size fits all model. And if anybody deviates, you either have a disorder or or a syndrome is just crazy and is ludicrous.
Speaker: Right. I mean, we're missing the whole beauty of being human in the variety and that we all come with our own interests, our own gifts, our own abilities. And we need to be focusing on how to nurture ourselves. And so to me, yes, Figuring out the systems that support individuality is one of the best uses of of AI where, you know, before where things were maybe manual and some of the systems were created based on requiring manpower to do them. There had to be some lumping together to be able to create systems for everybody to kind of fit into. But now with, you know, with technology and what it provides us, we're not limited by human horsepower anymore. We can use effectively.
Speaker: to facilitate society and systems built around individuality. And for me, I think that's one of the best uses of ai You just made me realize, I suppose, that we have labels for everyone who is different. Most of them are not nice.
Speaker: Difference results in name calling. So it's better to to fit in. Whereas what you're saying, suppose, is that ethical AI should be used in a way that will allow us to be more accepting of difference in people who don't fit into the box that we think they should.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I don't think, I mean, to me, it's ludicrous to think for us to accept the current status quo, right? I mean, i no matter what, you know, I know we're, you know, we're from different countries and different political arenas and things of that nature, but I don't think that there's any, anybody can look around and say, we've nailed this thing. This is the gold standard. It's been established. We can't get any better than this, right? So, you know, as opposed to focusing on incremental optimization, right now is the time to to think about how do we break this and rebuild it?
Speaker: Very interesting because, I've been looking at some of the online conversations that are taking place about recruitment. HR people are up in arms about people using AI to enhance their applications, their resume, may they see at their CV.
Speaker: But at the same time, the same HR people are saying, well, of course, we use AI to assess applications, to work out who we should be calling in for an interview.
Speaker: So there's a double standard. It's okay for me to use it, but it's not okay for you to use it. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's unfortunate, like a lot of the the corporate leverage, which is we have the control, we have the power, we have what you want.
Speaker: So you need to play the game to fit into our way. you know Forget about whether or not that's actually the best thing for any of us. This is how the game is going to be played. And if you don't play it this this certain way, then you suffer the consequences, essentially, right? Which are either they're not getting a callback, struggle to get to to find employment, struggling to find answers as to why you know it seems like you qualify, but they're not able to get the the feedback appropriately from HR on and how to tweak things. It's definitely a a system that stifles, not one that that fosters innovation and fosters growth and connectivity. That's for sure.
Speaker: That's ethical AI, but why do you connect it or link it to conscious leadership? What do you mean by conscious leadership? Yeah, so conscious is one of those words that gets thrown around a lot that definitely doesn't have ah a uniform meaning, at least not one that I'm aware of. point I use it because it gets used out there, but I would say for me, you know conscious leadership means operating with a set of beliefs and character, morals, that values aligned with supporting humans.
Speaker: So you a people first or people focused organisation rather than we need to do this particular task and it doesn't matter how we treat the people in order to do it.
Speaker: What we're actually saying ethical leadership is one where we say this is what we need to achieve. But in order to achieve it, we need this from our people, almost then, how do we balance what we need with what wee with what the individual needs as well? Yeah. And if you really back up the bus a moment and you think about it, we were just talking about resumes and getting noticed, right? so So everybody was hired because they had a skill set or a skill or an ability, something that was needed inside the organization. So the organization hired them to provide that talent to the organization.
Speaker: Now, is we AI is coming in and we're and a lot of the focus is on how do we now use AI to provide that skill and ability instead of saying, this person is already and more of as as a subject matter expert in this area. So how do we use ai to enhance their impact, to enhance their ability? How do we remove the busy work that isn't using their subject matter expertise using AI so that they can use their subject matter expertise on the things that matter, like problem solving, generating revenue, or whatever else you know is relevant to that person's role?
Speaker: it's quite I find it quite interesting how quickly we get wrap you get wrapped up in you know efficiency and and and saving money, as opposed to this belief that humans are capable of having a much greater impact when properly supported. It's an interesting phrase, properly supported.
Speaker: Because one the things I've noticed, for example, is that organizations will buy people laptop computers, put a desk on all sorts of desks, and more and more people are using computers as part of their work. But when you send your salespeople, your executives out into the world, you want them to be seen with a really high quality laptop computer.
Speaker: And it comes with all sorts of software. Very few people ever get training really on how to use all of that software. So people are using Word as if it's a typewriter and not making use of any of its capabilities.
Speaker: We're not supporting people with training in how to do their jobs or how to use the tools that we've provided them with. How can we expect employers to provide people with training so that they make best best use of AI. This is where you know I would challenge you know ah HR organizations to take a look at the mirror themselves and go, do I really believe that my people have potential or do I believe that I hired a bunch of dead weight?
Speaker: right because right Because look if because the if the approach is I hired a bunch of dead weight, well, then you then you need to to operate your business one way. There's a whole other set of post-mortem that goes along with that with that answer as well. But and the other the other one then is, look, I hired these people because I saw something in them and I thought that we would be better, our organization would be better because of them being in it. yes And so where did we, so how do we get reconnected back to how do we allow this person to make the greatest impact? And I do believe that people are, you know, capable of making greater impacts. And I think that's usually where it starts is, you know, as a matter of what do we believe the potential is of our workforce?
Speaker: Yes. Where are we prepared to recognize that there is potential because too many employers, I think, of all types, candidates get very excited when they've been offered the job and they're ready to start work and they're full of enthusiasm.
Speaker: It's almost as if I'm going to be here, I'm going to be fantastic. And that's when they're their most sponge-like. They can learn very quickly and they're eager to learn. Likewise, the employer is enthusiastic to have found the right person for the job and keen to make sure that they're a success.
Speaker: But six months later, the whole situation can be reversed and employees are unhappy with the reality did not match their expectation.
Speaker: And likewise with the employer, their expectation of the employee, their new employee did not match the reality. But that what you are talking about is something that isn't happening at the moment because too many employers think that in new employees will hit the road running.
Speaker: They'll arrive experts. And no one ever does. No one ever arrives as the expert. And I totally get what you mean about AI and conscious leadership.
Speaker: The AI exists. Well, I'm learning from what you're telling me. is that the AI exists. It will impact some people's work negatively, but the vast majority of people, well, it could be an opportunity for the vast majority of people, but for that to happen, organisations need to adopt a much more conscious, more ethical approach to the way in which they manage and lead the people in their organisations.
Speaker: I mean, I'll give you ah two or two guess get two comments back on that. So you i if I had to guess, I would say that I probably spent 30 percent of my time using my subject matter expertise in my job. The other 70 percent of my time was used on either busy work, other you know stuff that other people wanted me to do, my responsibility to my team members or you know my leader, et cetera, things of that nature.
Speaker: And so there was all kinds of opportunity right to use AI to streamline that aspect of things. And then the other comment is, and this is where you know properly supported is so important. So you know you talked about a calculator earlier. And so a calculator is ah you know is way better at math than I am, but I will confidently say that I'm way more intelligent than a calculator. My ability to do math doesn't determine my intelligence. As a matter of fact, I was so i was diagnosed with dyscalculia, which essentially math dyslexia.
Speaker: right and so therefore you know a calculator was very was very helpful to me because figuring out algebra and and a lot of math is just for whatever reason or the way my the way my brain is wired it just it just didn't didn't register i just no matter how much i could i just couldn't you know couldn't get it to stick now going through traditional schooling that caused me a lot of problems however when it came to the professional workforce what that had caused me to do was to look for other solutions which means i created an alternative data set Then, and and created a data intelligence methodology to figure out how to use that data.
Speaker: and then ah And then a framework of how to take the new set of data and a new way to look at it to solve problems and increase ROI that was superior to what traditional modeling and our existing models were based on. So had I stuck to just you know traditional math, I never would have been able to have made so you know that positive impact on things.
Speaker: but it But it required me being able to be properly, you know, to get allow myself to get properly supported to be able to do those things. Yes. You know, and so that's just another reason why it's just so important to support people and their gifts. And the organ and that's when the organization benefits, too. So it's not like we're talking about just providing nice to haves that sound good for recruitment that are perks. But, you know, we're talking about things that actually matter and your best people.
Speaker: are going to want to be productive. Your best people don't want a ping pong table. Your best people want to do great work. Yes. Having to agree with people what great work looks like and then managing their time and activities so they're able to achieve that great work rather than, that's the name.
Speaker: We don't know how we're going to get there. But what you are describing is using AI as an opportunity to change the way in which organizations manage, lead, develop, support their employees.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. i mean, there's... yeah I think the the the biggest shame of all of this is going to be it will be the this constant this continued focus on the you know incremental optimization within broken systems, as opposed to taking a step back and just saying, all right, if we were starting ah you know from ground zero, how would we build this company?
Speaker: And then and taking that approach to make the most of the technology. And and the other like the other part of that, too, is the companies that don't do that eventually will get passed up by the guys that are building their companies that don't have all the technical debt and all the other you know overhead. So it's not like they have the luxury of just sitting back and staying at the status quo and and not thinking that the world's and not going to pass them by. Right.
Speaker: So they they should have plenty of, I think there's plenty of incentive for companies of all size right to really measure against what they think the best way to do things is, as opposed to just better than what we got already.
Speaker: Knowing when is the right time for you to start this type of, trying to think like, how would an organization know that the time is right for them to start looking at this type of,
Speaker: reformation in the way in which they operate? Is it just that you should start and you should start as soon as possible? If you're starting today, you're starting too late? Or are there particular criteria elements that will be noticeable that signal that now we're getting to the point where the time is going to be right to start this process?
Speaker: It's easy to say that there's always low hanging fruit, right? So say, we might as well just start doing something because doing something is better than doing nothing. And we know that there's plenty of ways to improve. So let's just get going. And to an extent, that's true. But if somebody but if you're but if you're focused on that, then you don't have the time to do anything else. Right. And so I think that, you know, if if I'm a company and I'm thinking about when do I do this?
Speaker: And once I have figured out using, I think that the proper term is, you know, stepping back and establishing first principles of what I believe um the the most optimal way my business can be ran using technology is once I've once I've laid that out, then I can get started on it.
Speaker: Until then, until I have that kind of North Star, that beacon to guide my work, guide my resource allocation, it's always going to come up short of its potential. And in my opinion, usually once without having that beacon to guide us at you know at ah at a full scale, we always, you know, i very rarely does full potential ever get reached and it just ends up being a bunch of busy work.
Speaker: Busy is not as good as being productive. Not in my experience. I have to agree with you. <unk>s crazy But it gets rewarded. True. Have you seen any organizations that are doing this well?
Speaker: um The ones that I've seen doing this well tend to be the small startups. um mom and pop, somebody that's solving a social issue. One that I saw that was really did this well was there was a mother and she had her son, think it was her son, was neurodivergent. I think it was dyslexic. i Dyslexia, I'm not, don't quote me on that. But anyway, the the short of it, she was that she was that she recognized that, you know, look, her son struggled in school.
Speaker: And it wasn't because he lacked the intelligence to learn. It was just how he absorbed information, how he took information in wasn't the same way that the teacher administered it. So she used you know technology to facilitate his learning based on his learning style. And all of a sudden, then he caught up with everybody. So then that turned into her taking a look at ah various learning styles within the neurodivergent spectrum and then creating learning software around that. And so that allowed there to be an individualized learning experience without having to ask the teacher to teach five different ways. And so it was you know so it was a win-win solution for you know for all parties involved.
Speaker: Back to that point that you made earlier about how conventional ways of operating mean that efficiency means everyone has to be the same, have the same need, get the same solution, and we can we can move forward with that.
Speaker: And that's been the conventional way of delivering services to see people, whether they're pupils or customers. The Henry Ford, you can have any color you like as long as it's black.
Speaker: That's a principle subconsciously or consciously has gone across other types of industries as well. And yet the technology, as you were saying earlier,
Speaker: In that particular case, the technology was used to create an individual experience with one person for whom the bulk system didn't work.
Speaker: So the teacher would carry on with the bulk system, but this one person got something that catered to their needs within the context, the environment where they had the support of the teacher if they needed it.
Speaker: And it sounds So straightforward when you tell that sort of story. There must have been all sorts of problems.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. i mean, I think to me, the one of the scariest, and just to try continue to tie this into kind of the ethical AI, And conscious leadership, I think to me, the scariest the scariest thing that I see happening right now with AI is that it's built around this one size fits all belief systems, right? When you ask AI for solutions, or i you know and we talk and there's this talk about super intelligence or general intelligence,
Speaker: intelligence, whatever, be you know, quickly, how quickly ai can become smarter than a human. Well, that's based off of this belief that there is one record of truth that we're all supposed to live under or that we all live in one reality. When the reality is, if you we want to solve a problem, we need to understand your your reality, my reality, and then our reality if we want to be able to create win-win solutions. Otherwise, all that's happening is one group's agenda is getting put forward of another, and another group is is either becoming marginalized, oppressed, or just not supported.
Speaker: and then and And then we're moving forward and calling progress.
Speaker: And that's what scares me. Yes. And at the moment, it does seem as if the general perspective is that AI has a certain element of infallibility about it.
Speaker: Yeah, that's, yeah, i don't I definitely don't look. I think it's a great tool, absolutely, but it's, good But it's a tool, right? And in humans, it's kind of like, you know, we've got a handful of people out there in the world that want humans to, you know, let's all just use the example of a carpenter and they and there's tools, right? and And they're saying, okay, if we create enough great tools, we don't need to have nearly as intelligent as a carpenter because the tools can end up doing the work. And, you know, any dummy can swing, you know, can swing the hammer when we tell them how to do it. Well, and that's and and and that is one belief system. And that is the challenge when you have these systems that create this one size fits all.
Speaker: and then you know And then a computer it has the ability to you know outmaneuver human inside of a you know a one size fits all operation. Where, you know again, my point is that, yes, we should be you know using AI to improve the tools that are available to the carpenter. But what we need to be spending our time doing is investing in the carpenter and making a more intelligent carpenter.
Speaker: Yes, yes, I agree with you. think it's a really good point. Very well made. I mean, the power is meant to, yeah, the power is meant to to rest with the people, in my opinion, not companies and not governments. Yes. And and in getting everybody and having people or organizations whatever, more and more reliant on somebody else's tools is not empowering, right? It's it's it's creating dependency.
Speaker: Very much so. what so Very interesting, Graham. Yeah. You've certainly made me think. Thank you very much. Really enjoyed that conversation. Thank you.
Speaker: Well, good. Well, i think then that means we did our job, right? We certainly did. Certainly did. Thank you very much. Brilliant. I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Graham Skidmore, the CEO of Seth Solutions.
Speaker: You can find out more information about both of us by using the links in the description. One of the areas where AI is being used effectively is in healthcare. care The best way to have a great healthcare system though is not to use it.
Speaker: And the best way to not use the health system is to stay healthy. And the best way is to stay healthy is to know the risks early, which is why we recommend the health assessments that are available from York Test, especially their annual health test.
Speaker: The annual health test from York Test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers, including risks of chronic illnesses. The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace.
Speaker: Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory. You can access easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure Personal Wellness Hub account.
Speaker: There is a link and as you would expect, a discount code in the description. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Graham and I have enjoyed making it.
Speaker: So please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. You'll probably also want to share the link with your family, friends and work colleagues as well.
Speaker: Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening.
Speaker: And goodbye.
