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Sex & Tech: Privacy, Power, and Human Intimacy in an AI Future
154 Plays15 days ago
This week Savannah Sly, dominatrix and sex worker rights advocate, joins the show to talk about privacy, power, and the nuances of human intimacy as generative AI takes hold.
George K and George A talk to Savannah about:
- The current state of privacy for vulnerable communities and the real-world operational security challenges they face
- Practical steps individuals can take to protect their digital identities when dating online
- The intersection of AI, deepfakes, and the weaponization of intimate content
- The zeitgeist and cultural headwinds for sex workers today
New season, new scope. Thank you for listening!
Recommended
Transcript
The Future of Technology in the Sex Industry
00:00:00
Speaker
Sex workers have always been on the cutting edge of technology because we're entrepreneurial. um And so are the people who work with us, like people who film pornography, who may or may not be sex workers themselves. So I'm confident that the sex industry will continue to innovate and will innovate around onerous regulations and also disruptive technologies such as AI.
Introduction to Season 4 and Guest Savannah Sly
00:00:27
Speaker
Welcome back to Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks. It's season four. This is the podcast that confronts the questions of humanity when it comes to technology. I'm George K. And I'm George A. And this is The New Deal. That's right. And today we open with a banger.
00:00:45
Speaker
Our guest is Savannah
Impact of Technology on Privacy and Security
00:00:47
Speaker
Sly. She is a globally recognized sex worker rights advocate, founder of New Moon Network, board president of the Sex Workers Outreach Project USA, and is on the board of directors at the Free Speech Coalition.
00:00:59
Speaker
God damn, this is a megaton payload of ah insight and experience. So the reason we wanted Savannah on the show is because we wanted to widen the aperture of discussion Things like data privacy, things like security. We talk about it when it comes to businesses, but we don't talk about it when it comes to people. And we couldn't think of a more intimate and vulnerable space than sex and dating.
00:01:24
Speaker
So we get into dating app OSINT. We get into ah sex worker rights. We get into deep fake non-consensual ah pornography, a.k.a. revenge porn, a.k.a.
00:01:36
Speaker
digital forgeries. goes deep y'all and uh there are some good laughs and there are some heavy moments along the way you know we've been talking about this for a little while and so so our audience knows you know we will always at some level be a tech podcast specifically one that deals with security and and the issues around that um But let's be real about it.
00:01:58
Speaker
Even George and I were starting to get bored of the message, right? Because generally speaking, there's only so much you can do and talk about insecurity without actually touching into life and society and the real thing.
00:02:10
Speaker
And I think George and I, like when we started this, we wanted to address one specific set of problems. We are now trying to take on not all the problems. We're trying to take on all the things that we personally find interesting because we hope you'll find it interesting, too.
00:02:26
Speaker
Talking with Savannah tonight was an example of that because she is someone
Savannah's Career and Advocacy Work
00:02:30
Speaker
who lives it. She's the real deal. She does a thing that a lot of society now might shame her for.
00:02:37
Speaker
But the fact is, if there's someone who has a ah deeper understanding of the rawness of humanity and trying to play within those kind of spaces in this very, very technologically developed world, this is the kind of perspective that you're looking for. You want to deal with someone who understands the real world consequences of when we don't do these things right and the benefits of doing it right.
00:03:04
Speaker
And I think Savannah gives us a really good litmus test as to understanding humans and how humans are trying to connect in this AI enabled world. And that's what I'm saying for this episode.
00:03:16
Speaker
All right. Strap in, y'all. Here is Savannah Sly. Welcome to season four. Savannah Sly, welcome to the show. Hello. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:03:30
Speaker
We are very excited to have you and your perspective and your experience. um To kick things off, I will hand it over to my co-host, George A., who is in the dating space. So I can't think of a ah more appropriate way to get things started.
00:03:46
Speaker
Thanks, George. Savannah, welcome to the show. I think before we get into questions, I would like to start off by you giving our audience a context because this the start of season four for us, and you are not the traditional tech security leader, salesperson that we usually bring on.
00:04:06
Speaker
ah That is very much intentionally by design. i think be really good before we get into it if you could let the audience know you are and how you ended up here. Sure. Well, thanks again
Privacy Concerns in Dating and Technology
00:04:16
Speaker
for having me. This is great. My name is Savannah Sly, and I think I'm here because i have been a sex worker for my entire adult life, specializing as a dominatrix, but working across a mile variety of sex work modalities.
00:04:29
Speaker
um I also have a tech background as far as being an organizer for the ACLU of Washington for their Tech Equity Coalition portfolio. And then also as a sex worker, security is always top of mind.
00:04:40
Speaker
I'm also the founder and co-director of New Moon Network, which is a intermediary fund dedicated to supporting the movement for sex workers rights. And especially in this political climate, ah security and safety of everyone in our community is on our minds.
00:04:55
Speaker
That is awesome. um So yeah. Killer intro. That's like hard as fuck. Thanks. We'll start off with a little bit more of ah a tech focused site question um and bearing in mind that, you know, I got spend an obscene amount of my time ah working through trust and safety issues on a massive customer environment of people who are trying to connect in a very, very kink friendly space and trying to dissect like.
00:05:24
Speaker
You know, I remember when I started the job and had to be like, what's a fin dom? What's a pay pig? What is this thing? like i have to somehow referee. Good questions.
00:05:35
Speaker
um And, you know, a lot of it curiosity and stuff, regardless of our of our know personal experiences and all that stuff. It gets really, really out there. So the biggest question we got and then actually we had some some listeners that we kind of told about in our little community, that hey, you're coming on and like people, people were genuinely excited that coming.
Challenging Societal Judgments and Hypocrisy
00:05:54
Speaker
So we had bunch of submitted questions.
00:05:56
Speaker
One of them, which I think is kind of one of the most important ones, is, you know, what's your biggest privacy concern around what you do? Given that you are full send, face showing, no no censorship, no mass, no eyes wide shut kind of motif, you're straight up you out there. i mean, you have your, we'll call it stage persona, and then there's the real you, but, you know, how do you protect that privacy and are you concerned about that?
00:06:27
Speaker
Well, I'll begin by saying that I have chosen to be out as a sex worker, especially as a sex worker rights advocate. So I might take risks that aren't risks that other sex workers would feel comfortable taking.
00:06:40
Speaker
Everybody has a different level of personal risk assessment, right? So I'm face out. um And actually, it's not that hard to figure out my legal name and things like that. And that's intentional.
00:06:51
Speaker
I decided that I never wanted to be vulnerable to doxing and blackmail, which is certainly something that sex workers and lots of other people um can be vulnerable to when you are in the space and there are jerks in the world who want to mess with your life.
00:07:05
Speaker
um That said, I do protect that information. I make sure that my personal data isn't easily available on the internet. I'm very conscious of keeping my life separated with my devices as best I can, um which is increasingly harder in a linky world.
00:07:20
Speaker
ah But to be honest, my biggest privacy concern is pretty much out of my hands as a face-out person in the world, which is biometrics. I'm really concerned about increasing use of biometrics at international borders. And there are lots of stories of sex workers being um prevented from crossing borders, especially into the United States, because they might have an OnlyFans account.
00:07:40
Speaker
And so they are face out. And with the use of biometrics, plus other things like digging through people's phones, um people are being prevented from crossing the border. So that's a privacy concern that I have, but I don't think I have much control over at this point.
00:07:54
Speaker
I just want to point out
Creating Safe Spaces for Desire Exploration
00:07:55
Speaker
to everyone, before we go over George, ah Savannah had two telephone devices. I presume one is personal, one is work. Yes. Yes, they are. Okay.
00:08:05
Speaker
those who can't are listening on, on Spotify or Apple pods, it made me laugh because in my head I was like, oh wow, it's just like she works at KPMG. Yeah. Or, or a major bank, a major US bank. They all have hard devices. That's legit, dude. right, George, you go, bro.
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah. So um Savannah, before we get, ah I think looking towards the future, I think most of our listeners might consider sex work to be, i guess, at the extreme end of their own personal spectrum. But one of the reasons that we wanted to have you on the show is also because sometimes questions of privacy and security get really into the weeds for corporate environments, whatever else. And George and I have always considered, like, if the mission is to defend the data, the data is of the people.
00:09:03
Speaker
And not enough of that conversation around these practices is related to them or takes them into consideration. So I guess I'm curious to hear what you what questions are you getting from the sex workers you are doing outreach with or organizing?
00:09:18
Speaker
And if we can extend that even to a general lay audience about dating It's been a long time since I've been on a date well before internet dating. um i have many friends on who are using many different apps and they all kind of have jerry-rigged their own personal methods of ensuring their own privacy or their security. So I i kind of want to leave the floor open for you to tackle kind of the whole personal end of this pool.
00:09:48
Speaker
Sure. Well, I recognize that sex work or talking to a sex worker might be um outside ah people's comfort zone or things they're familiar with. So to everybody listening at home, ah congratulations for being here. I promise I won't bite you through the radio.
00:10:02
Speaker
um I'm an everyday person. i just happen to have an unusual job. ah But my job is very personal because I am putting myself in private spaces with strangers sometimes.
00:10:13
Speaker
um I'm also somebody who dates. um And so it occurred to me not that long ago that I should be applying all of my safety tactics, the things that keep me well and protected as a sex worker, to my approach to dating. Because when you think about it with dating apps...
00:10:28
Speaker
it's ah It's strangers. So if I'm going to put myself in a space with a stranger, why wouldn't I prepare myself by learning what I can about them ahead of time, um having control over the space where I am meeting them, and maybe also not disclosing much of my personal information, if any, until I think that this is a safe or trustworthy person.
00:10:49
Speaker
So that's sort of how I start
Generative AI: Tool or Threat?
00:10:50
Speaker
to approach dating as a sex worker, is by being a sex worker and using my sex work skills. Nice. um Could you share a couple of the tips that you would share with like a general audience that's just coming to you and being like, I'm trying Tinder for the first time. I'm trying Bumble. Like what what should I do?
00:11:11
Speaker
First things first, this might not occur to the average person, but you don't need to share your real name on a dating app. There's a lot of things that i do as a sex worker that I've started applying to my dating life to increase my safety.
00:11:25
Speaker
For instance, i choose not to put my actual first name on my dating profile. um I might use something that sounds sort of like my name. Let's say that ah let's say my name is Savannah and I want to date.
00:11:38
Speaker
Why would I put Savannah on my profile with a picture of my face when I could use Samantha or something like that? ah Some people might think this is duplicitous or weird, are you a spy, or why aren't you being honest in your dating profile? But if you think about it, having somebody's first name and then a photograph of them That could enable that person to do a little internet sleuthing, maybe on a date or broker site um where they could pay a low fee, maybe $10 to maybe figure out your last name and then figure out very sensitive information like um your phone number, your relatives, where you work or your address.
00:12:13
Speaker
So first things first, I have stopped using my real first name on dating apps. I have also stopped putting my entire face on a dating app. I will show a three-quarter shot or a cute from above, something flirty. They can get a sense of what I look like.
00:12:28
Speaker
But why would I put my entire full face on a dating app where thousands of people can see it and maybe figure out who I am um or try and learn more about me than I wish to reveal? um Also,
Regulation Challenges and Age Verification Laws
00:12:40
Speaker
I only use new photographs for dating. I have a set of photographs that I just use for dating profiles.
00:12:46
Speaker
These are not photographs that you're going to be able to find on any of my social media accounts, on my personal website, or maybe other people's websites, especially as a sex worker. So those are a couple of tips that I use before I even talk to anybody on a dating app to set my profile up for safety.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that that's really logical stuff. And and we see like a lot of users do similar things um on our site as well. I think what's interesting is you know you you kind of touch on um the separation between the two worlds, right? and i know know, this is going to kind of spin off into a different sort of question, non-technical, really. But in terms of the the demographics you deal with, right? Like, I know in my personal experience, like, I know quite a little bit about the lifestyle community up here.
00:13:35
Speaker
And you meet all sorts of people who are into all sorts of things. And they'll say some things privately. But then publicly, they're extremely judgmental. Right? And you're like, I feel like you only wish you could be part of the party. you're being real weird about it and like this isn't going to get you invited but like so so really it comes down to you know how many people in your life um do you think have hired a sex worker in private and then for the sake of this argument we'll count strippers in there as well um but then they talk openly with judgment about your industry and I mean surely that must make you want to scream because I don't for for me um i used to just like
00:14:20
Speaker
have to contain myself from just yelling at at some dudes just like what are you talking about bro like i was there last night when we saw those girls or we saw that situation and you're like clearly wanted to be part of that but then like now we're out in public or in a different venue and you're acting like you're righteous So this just like it drives me nuts personally
Legal Complexities of AI-Generated Content
00:14:40
Speaker
because it's inauthentic and I think lacks integrity. Like if they're the saying that I used to always say with my friends, is just like, let your freak flag fly.
00:14:48
Speaker
Like, yeah, I better. Right. So surely you must find some frustration in that. We live in a world of double standards and it's actually very dangerous. This actually gets into dating as well. um I talked about what I do to protect my information when I put up a dating profile, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do your homework and try and figure out who you're meeting.
00:15:08
Speaker
um Because, for instance, you you might find out something about that person before you meet them that will give you some helpful information, like maybe they are um very outspoken and judgmental.
00:15:20
Speaker
about the gay community. Let's just say, for instance, and let's say you're about to have a gay date. They're on a gay dating website. um That's an example of a hypocrisy that's not terribly uncommon, but it's dangerous because that means that that person has a secret to protect. And you don't want to be somebody's secret because that means you become a problem in that person's life. And when you're a problem, they might need to take extreme measures to protect their secret.
00:15:44
Speaker
Um, this is why, um sex workers can be targets of violence is because we do hold a lot of people's
Exploring Desires Safely in Community
00:15:50
Speaker
secrets. Uh, people see us when they're married or maybe when they're not supposed to, or maybe when they're a politician.
00:15:57
Speaker
Um, as far as my practice, I try and learn the identity of the people that I'm going to meet. That's part of what I call a screening process, but I actually try not to learn more about my client that is necessary. A, it's not really my business.
00:16:10
Speaker
B, the less I know about them beyond like anything I might need in case I got assaulted. If I got assaulted, I would need information about them so that I could, you know, pursue whatever route I wanted to for justice.
00:16:21
Speaker
Um, But there's a concept in um security culture where it's like need to know basis. I don't need to know everything about you um because when I know things about you, that's a type of vulnerability that you now have with me.
00:16:36
Speaker
Right. um And people are certainly vulnerable with sex workers because they share a lot of their very hidden desires. um So when it comes to dating, obviously you want to date somebody who you're a match with. ah Certainly people with different political, religious and spiritual beliefs can date and have a good time.
00:16:55
Speaker
ah That seems increasingly hard in our culture because things are so divided. um But yeah, before I go on a date with somebody, I'll try and learn whatever I can about them. And if I find their social media, yeah, I'm going to scan through it.
00:17:06
Speaker
And if I see flags on there, maybe things that are disrespectful to women or to queer people or to immigrants or or things that just don't align with my values and maybe make me feel like I might not just be safe in general with this person.
00:17:18
Speaker
um That's good information for me to decline a date.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, i I see that as kind of like the important thing for safety. And it's a... A problem George and I kind of noticed because our industry is rife full of it because we have a lot of ah men and women, but mostly men that have a lot of money that recently or relatively recently came onto that money.
00:17:44
Speaker
and love to spend it in all sorts of whys away from their wives and partners and
Cultural Norms and Historical Influences on Sex Work
00:17:50
Speaker
families. Like George and I, I got obviously no names, but we, i remember, was it last year or the year before we're at Black Hat, this conference we're about to go to in Vegas, actually Vegas, well, it just happened when this episode comes out.
00:18:05
Speaker
And there was a very well-known security executive who was walking around um essentially with two, like I'm given like 20, 21 year old girls and I'm being real generous, right? Walking around the strip with them, right?
00:18:24
Speaker
You know what that situation is. You know exactly what that situation is. They're not your fucking nieces, bro. so like, and the guy's married. And so it's just like, this is kind of the thing that happens.
00:18:37
Speaker
And I just it's how do we then try to combat or create a situation where it's safer for people to to be themselves? Because I the sex work thing is it's it's always that debate between like predatory and and empowerment.
00:18:54
Speaker
Right. How do we, I guess, allow people to explore whatever dynamic they
Advocacy for Open Discourse and Free Speech
00:19:00
Speaker
want, whether it's like a seeking arrangement type of dynamic or it's just like. someone sugaring a bit, which I'm not going to lie to you, like you, you probably know very well happens a lot more than people want to acknowledge.
00:19:12
Speaker
How do we then create a conversation where we can kind of create a safe space where people can then just talk about these things? I feel like if we were honest about it, there would be a lot less violence. There would be a lot less assault. There would be a lot less stigma.
00:19:29
Speaker
How do we get there in your opinion?
00:19:33
Speaker
I think you nailed it, George. I think about this a lot. And I think about what drives danger ah in sex work. And a lot of it is secrecy because people cannot be honest about the fact that they have desires that are driving them to see sex workers.
00:19:47
Speaker
And it's not just sex workers. It could be affairs or it could be um people who are single, but maybe their sexual orientation is frowned upon in their community or their profession. It could be people wanting to try something kinky and wild that is taboo.
00:20:00
Speaker
Um, Because we can't communicate about these things comfortably, openly, because it can ruin somebody's life to be honest about their desires. That means that everybody has secrets and everybody has secrets.
00:20:13
Speaker
Everybody has secrets. um Everybody has something that they dearly wish that they could do, but they don't because of whatever social structure they're in and just about everybody. So that means that everybody everybody's walking around with all these secrets. And as I said earlier, um, secrets can be dangerous because secrets can turn into problems.
00:20:31
Speaker
Right. Um, I think this is where you get a lot of, you know, violence in affairs, right. A lot of violence against sex workers, violence against queer people. Um, People who have secrets tend to simultaneously want and hate that which they desire.
00:20:47
Speaker
um And desiring something is a form of vulnerability. To be desired is powerful. I think that's another reason that sex work is criminalized, um especially like women be and queer people being sex workers know that we have um certain powers over men, largely men, who would like to see us and spend time with us and enjoy our skills and our charms and our company.
00:21:08
Speaker
um That's a form of power. And under patriarchy, women and queer people having power is um a threat to that whole system of control. um So secrets are also about control.
00:21:20
Speaker
They're about maintaining an image of something that you want to be perceived as that maybe you aren't. um And I just wish that we could have more open conversation about people's actual desires and actual nature.
00:21:32
Speaker
And I'm not saying that everybody has to be polyamorous and kinky. but um It's okay for people to be monogamous and to be married. But if either person in that monogamous marriage starts to truly feel compelled to explore things outside that relationship, I wish that they would be able to have the space to be honest with each other um so that it wouldn't ruin their marriage or ruin their lives um if things needed to change a little bit.
00:21:58
Speaker
I also want to say on the safety bit, um I think quite a bit about female partners to men who are fucking around, right? um Sex workers tend to practice pretty stringent safer sex.
00:22:11
Speaker
That's another form of security. Everybody should be practicing safer sex, especially if you are not like totally partnered with somebody that you're hooking up with. um That's how we protect ourselves, but it's also how we protect our clients and people that that client also sleeps with.
00:22:27
Speaker
um When a wife doesn't know what her husband is doing, ah If he's not using protection, he could potentially bring home an infection to her. And um so that makes her physically less safe and also emotionally less safe. I've met multiple women who are the wives of men who have seen sex workers and we've talked about what their experience is like. Yeah.
00:22:48
Speaker
And the biggest issue is the ah total fracturing of trust and what that does emotionally when you think that somebody is your companion, your best friend, the person you can rely on and trust the most.
00:23:01
Speaker
And they've been going behind your back and doing something that really stabs you in the heart. You know, back when I used to answer the phone, this is this is way back. i've been a sex worker for a long time. I used to just answer the phone when people wanted to get a hold of me.
00:23:14
Speaker
um And sometimes people would get me on the phone, a a man, and a few of them would ask, so I'm married. Do you think that I should see you? which is them trying to place their burden of responsibility on me.
00:23:29
Speaker
but Like, um it's like, it's like, it's like I'm a bartender. It's definitely a deflection. deflection It's a deflection. They're looking for me to give them permission. And that's not my job.
00:23:40
Speaker
um it's like it's not a bartender's job to make sure that everybody is not an AA at their bar, right? It's up to everybody who walks into a bar to have the personal responsibility to know whether they should be or there or not. And so i I would tell these men, if you're married and your partner doesn't know, i think you should talk to them but for you before you see me.
00:23:59
Speaker
um And I also want to acknowledge that that's not something every sex worker can do. That's turning down work, essentially, because they they hang up and they never call again. I was i was literally about to say, like, If you're a dom, you're breaking character on that. And that is very, very good of you.
00:24:14
Speaker
Also, before we go back, George, I have to say this. I have thought for years and years, so many of Hollywood movies and dramas and books, the premise would just be completely non-conflicting if the lovers are quarreling or whatever it is, would just have an honest conversation about what they want.
00:24:34
Speaker
So many stories would just not even be worth saying if that was just as easy as it was because they dance around the truth. And that's like the whole thing in the story. I find that hilarious about Western culture.
00:24:58
Speaker
Hey listeners, we hope you
Advice for Kink and Fetish Community Exploration
00:25:00
Speaker
are enjoying the start of season four. Just a fair bit of warning, in the second half of the show, we do get into some more graphic descriptions of Savannah's sex work and some outstanding issues, including descriptions of disturbing deep fake imagery that some may find disturbing.
00:25:17
Speaker
So if that's not for you, you may want to stop now, but we do believe the issues are important and the conversations are valuable. With that, back to the interview.
00:25:30
Speaker
I'm glad you brought up power. And I want to turn our attention now to the technology side. I think the most obvious place to start is with generative AI and sex work and in this day and age.
00:25:44
Speaker
I see this as a, both a force multiplier and also maybe an economic burden, right? So I think the most obvious thing i't know, use case is that generative AI can basically create the porn that you want.
00:26:04
Speaker
ah It could we have lots of articles now coming out about AI companions, um be they visual or visual. people getting intimately connected with chatbots and feeling some reciprocity. There's a lot of human psychology at play there.
00:26:21
Speaker
But, uh, I also know of, uh, people who have like only fans accounts who are cloning their own voice and creating their own chatbot. So maybe there's this world in which it allows a single sex worker to kind of be in multiple places at the same time.
00:26:39
Speaker
um
Episode Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:26:40
Speaker
Anyway, I want to get your thoughts there um because there is nothing more human than sexual companionship.
00:26:49
Speaker
And now we are injecting ah this generative AI conundrum into that question. Yeah, this is something we talk a lot about, especially in the porn industry.
00:27:02
Speaker
Sex workers have always been on the cutting edge of technology because we're entrepreneurial. um And so are the people who work with us, like people who film pornography, who may or may not be sex workers themselves. So I'm confident that the sex industry will continue to innovate and will innovate around onerous regulations and also disruptive technologies such as AI.
00:27:22
Speaker
I am seeing online sex workers harness the power of AI and to yeah clone their likeness, their voice, and to um start to create their own bots or whatever you would like to call them. I see sex workers using AI to write their so right there point of view jerk off instruction but like scripts.
00:27:39
Speaker
um So people are using it in creative ways, but obviously there is a threat to, like not every not every sex worker is going to be an innovator. Not every sex worker can stay on top of the technology.
00:27:51
Speaker
It's a lot. um So I do believe that AI companions and AI porn, I think they are going to displace some of the sex trade workforce, um but not all of it.
00:28:02
Speaker
I think that there will always be people who desire knowing that someone real is on the other side, um even if AI gets really smart. I think that people will want the real thing. Not everybody. A lot of people will be perfectly happy jerking off to an AI person.
00:28:16
Speaker
video, a lot of people read erotica and jerk off and that's just words building an image in your head. So I think these images will certainly work for a lot of people. um But in-person sex work, i I have friends who are in the sex robot space and I know that that is coming a long ways, but I think it's going to be quite some time before sex robots can effectively replace a sex work experience. At least in my, i like I build relationships with a lot of my clients. I've known some of my clients for 18 years.
00:28:47
Speaker
ah not Again, not every sex worker is like that. Not everybody everybody builds that kind of relationship over time. But those relationships exist because we have conversations. Yeah.
00:28:59
Speaker
there are subtle nuances to our human interaction. And actually, now that I'm saying this out loud, I'm like, and A, I can replicate any single one of those over time. But I'm soft and warm and firm. And um I have hands and a mouth and things that is going to take a long time for a fucking robot to like replace.
00:29:17
Speaker
So I think that in-person sex work We'll be around for a long time. It might even become more popular as we become more virtual. But um the porn industry is getting its ass kicked right now. And they are coming at these onerous, like there there's a lot of laws sweeping the country called age verification laws. Yeah, the age verification stuff.
00:29:38
Speaker
Nobody wants minors accessing adult material. What do we do about that? Well, the porn industry has some ideas as to what we can do about that because we don't want people on our websites. A, um kids don't pay.
00:29:50
Speaker
You know, it's like we want paying customers and that is not minors. It's just not. um Also, I don't know any sex workers who are comfortable with having minors look at their material. It squicks us all out.
00:30:01
Speaker
um I'm sure there are outliers, but there's not many. um So the porn industry is getting their asses kicked by these age verification laws, which are essentially part of the Project 2025 plan to make pornography so difficult to do from a business perspective or criminalized. There's a lot of criminal felony palate penalties attached to these age verification laws.
00:30:23
Speaker
um And we just lost in the Supreme Court in a major way. So now in multiple states across the country, maybe maybe around 30 at this point, um People who want to view porn have to upload their ID to a website or to a third party to access porn. And in some states, there are owner's regulations where I forget which one it is, but you need to re-verify your age and re-upload your ID every hour.
00:30:46
Speaker
Now, I know that a lot of people don't spend a whole hour looking at porn, but still, isn't that silly? um These laws also don't prevent minors from getting access to porn. VPN use just surges in the states where these laws are passing.
00:31:01
Speaker
was going to say, they round about it through VPNs. we just go to unregulated sites that are hosted offshores, which frankly might have more non-consensual or problematic material on it.
00:31:12
Speaker
So these age verification laws are all about save the children, but they don't. They're a backdoor to trying to make pornography impossible to make a living on and to eventually criminalize and ban it completely.
00:31:23
Speaker
If the porn industry was powerful, it would be able to stop those laws because they don't make sense. um But FSC put up as strong a fight as they could with as many allies as they could and um brought it all the way to the Supreme Court and we lost.
00:31:38
Speaker
um So if there are other people listening who are powerful porn industry business owners, ah please become a member of FSC. They need your help. So I think that might be indicative of like the the very well-funded far-right shift, like Tea Party level shift, because like the political climate in America has fundamentally changed, especially in the last five and 10 years.
00:32:04
Speaker
And I think a lot of things that we consider normal and good, and George, i mean I'd love to hear your perspective too on it, America has become extremely um puritanical again.
00:32:16
Speaker
but like in an illogical way. I mean, we, the culture is there as a, as inherent DNA and it sort of expresses itself in different waves.
00:32:31
Speaker
You know, it's you know, A lot of the, um, I want to go to the strip club, but then I want to bad mouth it the next day is, is very much in line. Like that's the most minor expression of that sort of thing. But yes, it, it, we've been through this in the eighties with the moral majority, you know, and the pendulum swung back in one way and then, and we've come back this way.
00:32:51
Speaker
I did want to go back to, ah I think something that we're talking about here with the porn lobby. And then, and we talked about AI and then we talked about, um,
00:33:02
Speaker
innovation uh and now we're talking about policy so i'm gonna try to bring that all together in this one neat venn diagram savannah which is you know as of june last year most states in the u.s have laws on the books that now ban non-consensual AKA revenge porn. Some have even have nuance to include non-consensual deep fake or what are called digital forgeries.
00:33:31
Speaker
um The nomenclature is still very much in flux, but I guess I want to get your opinion there in terms of, we talked about your tips for safety for dating And there are couples that, you know, when they're in the thick of it, they want to film each other. That's just part of their intimacy.
00:33:51
Speaker
But, you know, if the relationship goes sideways, what do we do with that? What is your advice there? And then, um yeah, I guess that's where I'll i'll stop there because the other part gets very abstract very quickly.
00:34:05
Speaker
So thanks for bringing this up. Yeah, the revenge porn laws, I think, are a step in the right direction in many ways, but they also totally exclude sex workers frequently, which is really frustrating because sex workers can also be victims of revenge porn and or people non-consensually sharing stuff when they shouldn't.
00:34:21
Speaker
um Sex workers are excluded from that legislation by and large, um but it is a huge problem. People are having their intimate images shared and that can cause a lot of distress in a person's life, especially if that's a young person.
00:34:33
Speaker
Um, I can only imagine what it's like to be a teenager, uh, when life is already shitty and then to have somebody kind of trick you into taking a nude and then spreading it all over social media and getting bullied. That sounds hellacious. And, um,
00:34:46
Speaker
So certainly we need policies and regulations to address these things, but this is not something that we can out-regulate ourselves with. It's like people, we we everybody has a camera. There are cameras everywhere. um This, like my take on this on how to stay safe and make sure that your sensitive images are not circulated non-consensually, um don't take them in the first place. It's sort of like what a lawyer would tell you about emails. If you don't want to see it read aloud in court, don't write it down.
00:35:13
Speaker
um And I know that that can be hard because when you are really hot for someone and you're in love and oh my God, we're so sexy, we should totally film this. It'll just be for us. um You know, relationships go south and then you have really, again, it's a secret. When people have secrets, that's a form of power. And um intimate images are vulnerable for a lot of people.
00:35:35
Speaker
This is a a separate thing. It's like kind of like how I wish that we could talk more openly about desire and what people really do ah and what they really want. I wish that being sexual beings or being nude was not so scandalized in our country. I wish it wasn't the end of the world yes absolutely to have a naked picture circulating. And that is not that I'm saying that people's nudes should just be circulated and it shouldn't be like a big deal. You know, people have a right to privacy for sure, but it bothers me how, how powerful a naked image of somebody can be.
00:36:05
Speaker
Um, and I think that speaks to the puritanical roots of our culture, as you were saying, but yeah, if you don't want just Just imagine any image that could ever be taken of you could eventually wind up on the internet.
00:36:16
Speaker
Just assume that it will. And ah if you're not comfortable with that, don't take it. And I think what I... And what I... was sort of dancing around is now we live again in this age of generative AI where the pictures you didn't want taken can just be fabricated. yeah Right. And i didn't really have a question here and and maybe you can react to it, but in terms of the non-consensual deep fake or, or digital forgery um the thing that I have found and I have tried to talk till I'm blue in the face and I would continue to do so is that
00:36:49
Speaker
What I would say to parents is that the the nude apps where I could just take your photo, Savannah, like off your website and run it through there and generate a nude of you.
00:37:00
Speaker
I think a lot of parents still think that's like... deep web shit and it's out there it's open web you can find it out you can google search it and find it um and the other thing i would tell the parents is like if your horny 16 year old is is doing that about like a peer in high school who is under age in many states they have now generated c sam Albeit, you know, fake CSAM. And that's not a cyberbullying offense, as most schools treat it.
00:37:33
Speaker
That's now a sex crimes like that. 16 year old gets convicted. They go on the sex offender registry like this isn't just like a slap on the wrist sort of thing. And I think that the severity of that is not well understood. Anyway, I'm rambling. I don't really have a question, but I would love to get your reaction to it.
00:37:49
Speaker
I think this is really nuanced and this might be outside the scope of my expertise, but I feel that we need space in society to ah create images of people at the very least for political satire.
00:38:02
Speaker
I don't know if you caught the latest South Park episode with the AI generated Trump stumbling the together, but I want that to be legal. That's important to me, Savannah, as a person ah when it comes to other real life. Yeah. Satire is protected. Right. Right.
00:38:17
Speaker
So something that has no satirical value that is straight up pornographic. And I have found deep fakes of myself. I found a really disturbing deep fake of myself where I had all my clothing on. It was me as a dominatrix in a dingy basement with another dominatrix who I know who she is, but I've never worked with her.
00:38:36
Speaker
So and it's very realistic image. it was just a still image. and um And we had a very young, small male between us who had a muzzle on who was covered in bruises and bleeding.
00:38:47
Speaker
And my deep fake image was wearing jewelry that I wear. It was my hands. um But it was wearing like this weird bloody neat apron that I've and but I had it was it made gave me such a double take. I'm like, did I do something I definitely don't remember?
00:39:03
Speaker
Like, um, I had to really analyze it and zoom in and realize that this was a deep fake. No, I've never been in this situation with these people. But it was disturbing because the male who was depicted in the image looked really, really young. It was an upsetting image using me. I have no idea where it came from. i have no idea who made it.
00:39:22
Speaker
I just found it because was Google image searching myself as I do occasionally to see what's out there. Um... And it was distressing. And that could have consequences for me if people believed that was real and thought that I, as a dominatrix, was beating up a teenage boy.
00:39:36
Speaker
Right? So I see how deep fakes can cause problems. And, you know, this gets into... Like, what will the regulations and guardrails on AI be? To my knowledge, there are very few, if any.
00:39:49
Speaker
um And it sounds like this administration is moving in the direction of no regulation on AI. um And I welcome people to correct me on that if I'm wrong. But... You know, people who are advocates around AI and things like biometrics have been talking for a long time about the needs to put regulations in place so that when complex issues like deep fakes that are really harmful and going to bring harm to a person's life, ah so that those things can be addressed.
00:40:16
Speaker
um And I don't know exactly what the answer is because it's complicated. Yeah. But it does make me think there must be existing law like, you know, am I allowed to paint a picture of a real child doing something inappropriate?
00:40:31
Speaker
Am I allowed to do that? Is that legal? Can I put that in a gallery? I'm actually not sure because I'm not that I'm not a lawyer and that's not my area of expertise. so But I imagine that there are there's existing law and policy yeah around the creation of images, literature, songs, things like that, that could be compromising somebody.
00:40:51
Speaker
That's pretty awesome. i I really appreciate that you took the swing at that. um And, you know, this entire episode has been very, very awesome, too, because it's like getting the perspective from someone who's really and truly lived it and has understanding and and given your work with the Free Speech Coalition, which thank you for for bring bringing awareness that they exist and that they are fighting the good fight. And I hope people, our listeners, look into what they're trying to do, because I think it's a really important in this political climate that we fight for our ability to be able to, to talk and to produce content and to produce art, ah not say like porn is art, but like, it still should be something that's legal and people should be allowed to do it.
00:41:34
Speaker
um I guess what I want to kind of maybe circle this and then round this about to is like, how, how do you think,
00:41:48
Speaker
people who have an interest in in trying to at least explore something and be it digitally or be it physically. Like, let's say someone's lived their whole life a certain way and you know, they're reaching a point where they're having an epiphany about what, you know, you brought desire up earlier, what they actually desire, right?
00:42:06
Speaker
And they want to try to explore that kind of avenue like what app should they go on what should they potentially consider because like i remember back in the day it was like you go on fetlife or you go on certain other sites that were very much available to them for that and i'm not sure if that's still around but i think you at one point um our mutual friend bobby e think told me you built a website um for people trying to explore different things once What would you recommend today for people who are trying to find a platform to, I guess we'll say further explore and discover themselves, even if they're like in their 30s or 40s and, you know, they might even be married, whatever, what have you? Like, how would so how would you recommend someone safely begin to do this online?
00:42:53
Speaker
I would say don't start by getting on the kinky dating apps. I would say find community discussion spaces first. FetLife is a really popular place where people can go and you can find a litany of discussion groups around a specific kink.
00:43:08
Speaker
um You can learn about events where people have classes. I like fetish events that have, that are more conference style because they usually have classes. um And a lot of the classes are about how to do something safely um or talking about consent. um If you're going to go to an event or if you're going to be in these spaces, you need to understand that the kink and fetish community is um diverse and there's a lot of different people and mindsets in it.
00:43:37
Speaker
um I had the good fortune of really getting involved in the kink scene in Seattle at the Center for Sex Positive Culture, which we all called the Wet Spot. And I love the Wet Spot because they were so consent focused.
00:43:50
Speaker
You had to take an orientation before you he became a member. They had ah people monitoring the spaces with armbands, you know, to um check in if a scene looked like it was getting too intense or if somebody looked uncomfortable, ah somebody safe that people could go to and be like, hey, this guy won't leave me alone.
00:44:07
Speaker
um But not every kink gathering space is like that. i've been to some places that are a little more wild west and um way less consent oriented. And so it's... um Like there is, it's not a homogenous community.
00:44:22
Speaker
And so I think that's why starting with the online spaces, online discussion groups, I'm sure on Reddit and stuff, there are plenty of forums and stuff for this as well. And just asking questions. ah People in the King community love to demonstrate their knowledge and say, hey, I'm new.
00:44:35
Speaker
I want to learn how to safely explore and people will give you a lot of information, um and particularly around consent, boundaries, communication, um how to how to pick a safe play partner, ah where to play.
00:44:51
Speaker
um That's something we could talk about quite a bit. But also, if you just want to learn about kink and fetishes in general. um There's a lot of great books. One of my favorites is A Different Loving by Dr. Gloria Brame. It just breaks down all the different kinks and fetishes in a very respectful way. That's pretty intriguing, in my opinion. That was one of my first kink books, and I love it.
00:45:10
Speaker
Also, I used to contribute to a website called Kink Academy. Kinkacademy.com is an online website. library of kinky sex ed videos. So if you're interested in bondage, um even if you have a partner, if you and your partner are interested in bondage, but there's no community nearby to learn from, um you should maybe check out some classes online and start with the basics so that you're exploring bondage with as much information as you can to be safe.
00:45:39
Speaker
Because um I have to say, as a dominatrix, I kind of fell into it. My clients taught me a lot of what I know how to do. um But there was a lot of things people would ask me to do and I would just kind of do it. Like the first strap on session I did with somebody that poor fellow.
00:45:53
Speaker
That must have been the most uncomfortable, painful experience because I had no idea what I was doing. He just wanted a hot girl to fuck him in the ass. And I certainly did. But I had zero training. It would have been really great to have had a website like Academy or a forum like FetLife, which didn't exist at the time, or even a mentor or a local sex club where I could have learned more about how to safely give somebody that experience.
00:46:14
Speaker
And um I'm pleased to say that I've learned a lot about strap on play, you know, so no complaints ever since. But yeah, equip yourself with some knowledge before you try things, um especially online and and so and and hold off on the dating apps until you kind of get your feet under you.
00:46:28
Speaker
Damn, I can't think of a better place to end this interview. we got on I got to do one shout out to Bobby Bodeshka, who actually brought us together over Montreal, LeShaw Institute, her and Simon Dubé do great work out there, especially for a lot of this stuff.
00:46:44
Speaker
LSR is coming up in August in Marielle. It's a Love and Sex with Robots. It's their annual conference event. I have to shout that out. We would not be talking to lovely Savannah without them.
00:46:55
Speaker
And ah yeah, could. we could totally go like nose deep into like how the swingers in the BDSM community hate each other and like how there's like weird things in the BDSM space. And that's a whole, that's a topic for another show, but George, go ahead, finish her off. Thanks. Yeah. Savannah, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to entertain our questions and to share your experience and your expertise and just get into the nitty gritty and some hard topics. We really ah appreciate you taking the time. This has been great. And um it's great to get to know you better. And thanks for the great questions. And also, yeah, shout out to Bobby at LaShaw. ah Big fan. Bobby's awesome.
00:47:34
Speaker
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00:47:48
Speaker
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