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Why leveling up is about fixing your own “broken code” and doing the work
0 Playsin 13 hours
What if your biggest career obstacle isn't external—it's the “broken code” running in your own head?
Rachelle Tanguay joins the show to unpack the difference between consuming self-help content and actually doing the uncomfortable work of rewiring your internal programming.
From advising deputy ministers to coaching professionals across sectors, she's seen what happens when high-performers hit the wall between knowing what to do and actually being able to execute.
This conversation cuts through the dopamine-hit culture of five-minute reels and quick fixes. Rachelle breaks down why most people confuse consuming content with doing the work, how imposter syndrome is not your own voice “chirping in your ear," and why even the most senior leaders need help to see the forest through the trees.
If you've ever wondered why smart people with all the right information still can't break through their own barriers, this episode is for you. No buzzwords, no corporate speak—just an honest look at what it takes to level up when the real bottleneck is you.
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Transcript
Fixing Mindset with Books & Internal Work
00:00:00
Speaker
so when you talk about mindset and stuff, so even like a lot of the stuff I see on on social media, it's very much like change your environment, change your habits and stuff like that. And I agree with all that kind of stuff. But when you have lines of broken code in your system where you are self-sabotaging and you're like, well, I'll just, I'll read a book. Like I love Atomic Habits as a book. It's a really good book. um There's a bunch of other, you know, self-help books that I've read.
00:00:23
Speaker
The one thing that I always see is like, if you don't actually address the broken code, all those things, you'll end up going back in time, right?
00:00:34
Speaker
We get a dopamine hit, right? Like when you see something and you learn something new, right? And so you you watch a reel and you're like, oh, this is excellent. And I'm sure it's the same with So you watch a reel you watch like a a five minute clip or you do like even an element of a session and like, okay, cool.
00:00:52
Speaker
You get a dopamine hit, you get a release in your brain. feels great. i learned something. And then you walk away. you didn't implement anything, but you got the reward with the the plethora of choices and the You know the amount of things you have out there, like it's very easy to think that you're doing the work or to think that you're, you know, I'm consuming content. i'm consuming content.
00:01:14
Speaker
Yes. And you're getting a dopamine hit from that, but you're not actually going through your, your, your, your own, your own internal programming and sitting in the discomfort sometimes of yeah the reality of like truths about things that we tell ourselves. Right. Right.
Introduction to Podcast & Guest
00:01:39
Speaker
I'm George K. I'm George A. And this is Bare Knuckles of Brass Tacks, the tech podcast about humans. This week, our guest is Rochelle Tangay, and she is, i don't know what kind of story. She has been a senior advisor in the Canadian government in Ottawa for many years, but it was in that capacity as a trusted advisor to just so many people that she realized she had a future in career coaching. So this week's conversation is very much around coaching, what it involves, what it isn't, which is kind of a lot of Instagram nonsense and LinkedIn influencer, whatever the hell. But this was an incredible conversation, really gets into the guts of a lot of the human psychology that anyone faces in knowledge work or in their career trying to run corporate
Rochelle's Career Transition to Coaching
00:02:28
Speaker
ladder. Really, really appreciated the time with Yeah, I mean, full disclosure, like, you know, she's a good friend of mine. She's from the Ottawa scene. um You know, we hang out with someone I talk to quite a bit about just professional things, career things. i think she's a very um logical individual, very empathetic.
00:02:43
Speaker
um I think she's probably one of the best listeners, like active listeners um I've met in a very long time. I consider myself to be very privileged to be your friend. And I think it's really cool for our audience that she gets a, that they get a little full slice of what she does and what she brings to the table as well. Friends.
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah. So if you have heard about coaching or you're curious or you want to understand what that is versus someone just kind of like listening to your problems and yelling at you, this is a conversation for you. We also get into some of the common stuff that all of us hit like imposter syndrome. So yeah, let's turn it over to Rochelle.
00:03:28
Speaker
Rochelle Tanguay, welcome to the show.
Insights from Government Advisory Roles
00:03:32
Speaker
hi I was looking at George Squared and I'm excited to be here with you both. Yes, very excited to have you here. i think your story is very interesting. Why don't we just start with like the quick five minute hero's journey, like how you got from where you were to where you're going now, and then we'll we'll get into the the conversation at hand.
00:03:54
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much. So I'm living in Ottawa, right? And most most of us here, we're employed, we're public servants. And so I grew up as a public servant and um always on the policy side of things and, you know, in the room for big conversations. And I've led on national policies and I've worked on international trade.
00:04:14
Speaker
I was a member of a trade delegation to the WTO. um I was a negotiator during federal provincial negotiations. And as you move up in your career, there's often a split, like a fork in the road where you have to choose that you're going to go to management or become an advisor first.
00:04:29
Speaker
And I, it always intrigued me, um like seeing people make decisions, but then always wondering like, how how do they get that information? and Who's a person who's like, every person has to have a confidant. I was like who's that person right on the side? I always thought that was really cool, um, role. And so I opted before jumping into me to management, i I opted to go into
Informal Coaching to Professional Coaching
00:04:51
Speaker
a senior advisor role where some people know them as chief of staffs, um, to senior leaders. So it's got the same, same role, but, uh, different titles.
00:05:00
Speaker
And I've been lucky to have done it for multiple senior leaders in the federal government, including deputy ministers. And so I spent a long time in corporate environments working and advising senior leaders on a range of things.
00:05:14
Speaker
And, uh, I've also been also lucky to have developed private sector contacts and, you know, have interesting conversations on that side and working with people on that side as well. Um,
00:05:25
Speaker
and But like, as I've moved through my career into my career progression, I found that I was having a lot of conversations about ah leadership and career progression and personal growth. And this is even with senior leaders, right, who are wondering what the next steps are, or you know, hearing them like,
00:05:43
Speaker
the highest people in government are, they they always have a coach or they have somebody to bounce stuff off of because it gets lonely at the top. And so they, it's having these really um unofficial conversations with them and providing them, like giving them a place to talk to, a person to talk to as well.
00:05:59
Speaker
And, and I, I've kind of got a reputation for, I, i was i I gained a reputation, I should say, for providing insightful advice or seeing the forest through the trees on things. And so really succeeded in the role of advisor.
00:06:15
Speaker
and then, you
Getting Certified in Coaching
00:06:16
Speaker
know, i moved into to management recently. But what I really loved about the conversations that I was having, kind of like unofficially coaching and mentoring people and then also advising, ah officially advising people, is that I was being sent um young employees also who were wanting to move in their career. So it was coaching them, mentoring them, coaching them.
00:06:40
Speaker
And i was like I was also sought out by I've made some friends from business leaders and stuff in the U.S. as well. And I would get phone calls from them as well. ah Just asking for, can I bounce an idea off you kind of thing. So it's it was not unheard of. And i was all doing this just because I enjoy it, right? For the the the joy of the conversation.
00:06:59
Speaker
um and So I decided to take the leap and to move into coaching. So I got my certification and trying to make it official, right? Things that I'm already doing already.
00:07:10
Speaker
And they really are my favorite conversations. Like what makes somebody tick? And, you know, because we always have perceptions of of who, what a for example, like what a deputy minister, like, you know, we we see them, they're kind of a name or like a picture on a website or CEO of a company. Like you see them you're like, oh it's it's that person. It's the vision that we have, that that the snippet that they're showing us online.
00:07:34
Speaker
But when you actually talk to them, like they're human beings like the rest of us. So they have problems or they have challenges and that, you know, having conversations with people um and like what makes them tick their personal growth, um watching them increase their self-awareness.
00:07:52
Speaker
Like there's few things in the world that are more satisfying to me than seeing someone's face when a concept or idea clicks for them. When they, you ask a question and you can see in a real time that they're making a connection.
00:08:07
Speaker
um like When they're when in the process of leveling up in their career, and I say the leveling up, I mean like they're leveling up in themselves. And they're they're about to you know ah implement something that they've just kind of this like this aha moment that they had in their own their their own self.
00:08:22
Speaker
um There's a few things that I find more so. So I'm pursuing that um because i know I love the policy world and and advising, but I'm like what it really just gets me going is is watching people level up and helping them do that. Yeah.
00:08:37
Speaker
brilliant. I do agree that um you are, know, even before your coaching certification, you naturally are a very effective active listener, which I think is ah an extremely important leadership skill. I could see how your organizations have a great deal of trust in you.
00:08:56
Speaker
And, ah you know, we we do talk quite regularly and the kind of vibe about things that are happening in our in our respective works to what we can talk about. um So, and I appreciate kind of your perspective as well that You know, and something I always found in my career because I always found, even whether it was in the army and I was like a lowly field level operator and some battle captain comes to you and is like, hey, you got 30 seconds or less to tell me what's going on because it's either road A, road B, and one of them is an ambush and we all die and one of them is we get to the objective and that's the game.
00:09:27
Speaker
um Or when you're dealing with people in Ottawa and it's more strategic and more political and you understand as well that they got to put their pants on one leg at a time too and they're just normal people. And when you connect with them at that level, you actually become a much more effective advisor to them.
00:09:42
Speaker
um So I think it's funny that in your world, which is a completely different work experience and than my world and my history, a lot those kind of concepts correlate.
What is Coaching?
00:09:51
Speaker
um But I think what I really would find interesting is is for you to explain to us I guess, what is, what is coaching, right? Because everyone has those friends that love giving advice, right? Everyone likes to get advice, Barry. Everyone likes these people that, you know, think they know. And, and in my experience of I've, I've observed for most people, like I,
00:10:14
Speaker
There are very, very few people in this world on a personal level that I will be willing to take advice from. um and it's the same thing criticism. Like I live by the old adage that I would never take criticism from someone I would never take advice from.
00:10:27
Speaker
at the same time, there's a lot of trust that to happen before your advice becomes something that I would actually consider doing in all seriousness. How do you take... the simple concept of listening, doing that analysis in your head and providing just like a cogent assessment of what potentially needs to be done and the options facing as another person.
00:10:49
Speaker
and then you turn that into an actual practice. Because again, as ah as a professional coach, you are a professional, you have a practice, you have methodology. Can you describe to us the thought process from just doing what you did to being around people and your, you know, God given good nature versus now you want to do something as a professional helping people? What does that bridge look like? And what are the skills that you need to upgrade to be able to do that professionally?
00:11:16
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a really good question. Like listening is probably the biggest skill and that's a good like at any coach and everyone thinks that they're a good listener, but when you actually break it down and you ah when you talk to somebody, you tell like, this is what listening is, people don't listen.
00:11:35
Speaker
They often will wait for the next, for their turn to speak. Right. And that's what you, you kind of alluded to that with your friends, right? You may tell them something like, I have this X situation going on at work and this is really a struggle.
00:11:48
Speaker
And, know, Oftentimes, the person will be like, oh, either I have a advice for you or they'll come back and say, yeah, me too. Sally did this thing at the conference and it really pissed me off. And you're like, okay. Like all of a sudden the conversation is redirected, right?
00:12:07
Speaker
So people think that they're really good listeners, but the like listening is It's about staying curious. So you know what else are you going to say? So as a coach, it's like, okay, I'm listening for what else are you going to say?
00:12:21
Speaker
But also listening is not just listening with my ears. it's um It's watching your facial expression because you might be talking about the situation with a coworker that's really pissing you off and you're really upset about this coworker thing.
00:12:38
Speaker
And you won't even realize it, but as you're talking, um you'll say something. Yeah, it's kind of like what my girlfriend does. But this a guy's an asshole. The guy's an absolute asshole.
00:12:50
Speaker
and And you're watching. and and And so the coach is watching and it's coaching is actually very exhausting because you're on and you're listening. Like, It's like a hyper vigilance.
00:13:02
Speaker
Hyper vigilance. Yeah. And you're looking for all the little tells and all the little things because you're, but maybe you're complaining about that coworker because that happened today. But then if the coach is really paying attention and really watching, they might say, you know, I hear you're talking about your friend or your, your, your coworker, but you just made a comparison with your girlfriend. Did you, what, what happened in that second? Can you tell me?
00:13:27
Speaker
and I mean, there's a fine, fine line, fine line between coaching and therapy. Oh, they're actually on a continuum. So therapy is looking backwards.
00:13:39
Speaker
So as to say, so if you come to it, you come to book Therapy can also, is also forward looking, but the difference between there's like ah the continuum is therapy mentoring and coaching or coaching and mentoring, right? There's because mentoring sort of gives advice.
00:13:56
Speaker
Um, and you're, uh, the mentor has expertise that they might want to share. ah the coach is always forward looking. So like, yes, you might be talking about a problem with your employee or you've got this, like this merger happening and you don't know what to do because you're having an infighting with your, with your seat your CTO and you're like,
00:14:16
Speaker
It's not like therapy might be just venting, but coaching is really like that hour, hour and a half that you're with. you it It has to be focused on like what are you going to do for one thing. Do you have like a per client would you approach with like a curriculum of like in this six to 12 week period, we're going to help you achieve ABC or like strategically, how do you approach then planning? Because there must be some degree of like planning based on last session's notes,
00:14:42
Speaker
we Like, how's that work? b It depends on what the client client's goals are. So, um because also, also just like a client, a therapist too, or a mentor, you have to make sure that you vibe with the person as well, because somebody could see me and be like, oh yeah, she's cool. And then we actually have a call and they're like, yeah, you're not a fit for me. Right. So that intake call,
00:15:02
Speaker
They call it a discovery call or intake call. It's, that's where, that's where you would list out your goals. Also, like how many sessions, what do you want? Like, is it a long-term thing? Is it a short-term? Because otherwise it might just be that you,
00:15:15
Speaker
you have a project that you need to, you're having a hard time with and you want to meet once a week and for the four, for four weeks to get that project done. And then every week it'll be whatever the client wants to bring to the table that week is what you talk about.
00:15:28
Speaker
And the thing like, I know therapy, they give homework and you have to do the homework. ah Coaching is softer in that sense is that we don't, you're not going to be held to account if you don't do something. Cause it's like the session is really about what the client wants. And like, I'm just here as a guide.
00:15:45
Speaker
Now, i also do I also can slip into the mentor role, right? Where like maybe after the coaching session is talk about mentorship because I do have a vast array of experience that I can draw from to talk about a situation. So there's that as well that I that um might want to ah get into, but during the actual coaching session, the coaching is really the person's talking, I'm listening and I'm watching for little tells, but ultimately the, the philosophy is that you know the answer to your problems. You just may not see it. Yeah. Self, little bit of sabotage, a few bad habits. Exactly.
00:16:25
Speaker
So if you're saying, well, I'm really, I can't do it. It's like, well, what else could be true? Is that really true? h and just, and just keep asking the question. So i I have a casual observation and then I'll get to my question, which is think I noticed in your story this push-pull dynamic you know vis-a-vis coaching. So it sounded like you have, whether it's an intrinsic ability to give people your attention, which is rare these days, right?
00:16:55
Speaker
um Or this active listening, some demonstrable skill that pulled people towards you, right? People felt comfortable enough around you and then And then there's this distinction between conversing versus coaching, right? Like talking to them as a friend, as you said, doing it for free versus figuring out, okay, well, how do I how do i do this professionally?
00:17:18
Speaker
So that's the observation. The question, i guess, is
00:17:24
Speaker
in that push-pull, and you've mentioned this intake and mentioned like matching, i kind of want to get your sense on how you see the role of coaching as you want to practice it, which is, sounds very much individualized according to the client's goals, abilities, deficits, what have you, versus this kind of self-help culture we see en mass in social media, which feels like one size fits all. So instead of pull where people came to you because you had these intrinsic qualities, it's like, somebody dancing on social media and being like, I am a life coach
Critique of Social Media Self-Help
00:18:03
Speaker
to all. And I sort of have this, I've looked at this methodology I've developed and I'm just going to run everyone through this, you know, this one size fits all program. Uh, you know, pay me a hundred bucks an hour or whatever. Are you talking shit about Chris Williamson? Cause I like Chris Williamson. I was just talking about About influencer nonsense writ large, I guess. um But I just want to get your sense, Rochelle, about that. The individuation versus, you know, this ah this this larger problem we have in media where everyone seems to think there's one magic bullet to solve all your personal problems.
00:18:43
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, ah it's... So when i when I actually announced to anyone, ah i'm I'm going to become a coach, I'm getting certified, I'm working on this, when I told them I was going through this process, like friends, but also colleagues...
00:18:58
Speaker
The first thing, I don't think anyone, don't, yeah, I think everyone, their first thing was, oh, cool. So you're going to become like an online coach with us, with a social media group. See? So you're going to start like hawking your wares online. mean, I'm making them think it more poetically than they said it.
00:19:18
Speaker
And I just, I had such a visceral response to that because yeah, like once you, it once you interact on the algorithm, you're All it sends you is all these coaches and there's so many out there. And it's like, it's so saturated. The market is so, so saturated.
00:19:35
Speaker
And, you know, and there's all, it's like, there's good information because... you know, there's snippets, you can find snippets, but there's so much. And i don't think that there's a one size fits all. And it just, it, those one size fits alls don't also don't take into account people's individual circumstances or situations and like lived experience.
00:19:55
Speaker
You know, you've got somebody in Sacramento who has a solution to a problem and you're like, cool, you live, you've never been in the cold and you're like, you're like a young white female who's never had a child or been married. Like,
00:20:07
Speaker
ah but you But you've solved the world's problems. Like, oh okay. I don't know. like the ah Like some of the life experience I think has credibility or I, you know, i would not necessarily want to go for that person for a coach, but it's this, it's a saturated market. And that's, I'm definitely, I know it's part of, you know, you have to have a social media presence because people to find you a certain way.
00:20:30
Speaker
yeah. I do wonder what the pendulum's swinging so far that everyone, it's every everything's available to everyone. so how do you differentiate yourself? And maybe it is that it's a limited presence and you really have to like, if you want me, you can find me, you know? Yeah. I mean, it also commoditizes the process, right? Everyone begins to think, oh, if I just look up coaching on Instagram, i'm going to find this thing and it's going to fix me. Whereas like to George's point about the way he runs his teams, coaching can also get
00:21:02
Speaker
difficult like you got to be willing to take some feedback that's like you know you keep getting in your own way like a like a coach is gonna push you right and I also think I do for our audience's sake I'm very appreciative that you brought up certification I think some people don't know that thankfully there is professional coaching certifications not just everyone could like slap that label on their profile and say that they're a coach so Yeah, I mean, it's ah it's ah it' ah it's a long program, right, that we have to go through. And you have to accrue hours, I think, right? Is that right? Yeah, we have to accrue hundreds of hours and um there's tests that you have to do and there's things we have to keep up as well.
00:21:43
Speaker
And we have to kind of stick ah whip very keep a very clear line between coaching and therapy as well, right? Yeah. If somebody comes in and has a real psychological disorder and they think they need coaching, but we're like, yeah, this is actually clinical depression. Maybe you need to talk to somebody more. We have to make that recommendation to go to talk to somebody who's a professional a therapist or psychologist.
00:22:05
Speaker
Hey, just a quick word to say thank you for listening and to ask a favor. If you're digging the new direction of the show, which is looking more at human flourishing and the impact of technology more broadly, share it with friends. It really helps the show.
00:22:20
Speaker
We're really trying to grow something here organically. We don't do paid media. We don't do a lot of sponsorships, so we'd appreciate getting the word out and getting it to people who care about the questions that we're tackling, how to keep tech human, and how to make technology work for us instead of the other way around.
00:22:42
Speaker
Thanks so much for your time and attention. And now back to the interview. Because part of what George is talking about as well, and especially in like the life influencer space and you know like if you're not anything about studying leadership and stuff, here like I make the joke about Chris Williamson, I do think he's a great um influencer in terms of just certain ideas.
00:23:03
Speaker
Like, especially if you adhere to more of a stoic line of thinking in terms of leadership and stuff. Like, it's cool, it's motivating, but you still kind of have to take that and apply it to your own life. And I think people miss the latter step because they
Understanding Imposter Syndrome
00:23:15
Speaker
just take it at face value. Like, I need to follow this. You're like, but but you're not him. Or like the diary, the CEO guy. Great show, but I'm not him. So like his exact approach to doing things aren't going to apply to me, but it should motivate me to think about how does this apply to my own life.
00:23:29
Speaker
So I appreciate that you're not... You know, just running off of the same cookie cutter, like one size fits all mentality that we also see in our space in the boot camp mentality where it's like pay us money for this course and you will get solved for this.
00:23:46
Speaker
Right. Whereas the course will try to offer you a job, which you have no clue if this course has any impact for your job. Probably not. Same thing. If you go through this like yoga retreat or whatever it is, it's supposed to make your life better. I know plenty of people that do those retreats. They come back and they're still shitty people. They just have a complex. with pain They work home for like three days and then they became their old selves. very Artificially.
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah. But I have to ask like, It's kind of like a two part question. The first part is, is there a differentiation between ah best fit in terms of male to female, female to male, male male, male to female, female to female in terms of like coaching pairs with with mentees, I guess.
00:24:28
Speaker
And the second thing is, um because we kind of talked about this before and I thought it was a cool conversation. It's something that happens in our space quite a bit. I think a lot of our listeners will appreciate it, but I know that um George and I both sometimes suffer from imposter syndrome. i I sometimes deal with imposter syndrome to a point of like crippling anxiety. Like, how the fuck did I get here? What am I doing? Why am I talking to these people? Why do they know what my name is?
00:24:52
Speaker
What is going on? I just want to go back to playing my dogs and smoking my weed. So like what's happening. um So like, I guess the one question is the, the gendered match in terms of coaching relationships, is it necessary? and not necessary? And then approaches to coaching out imposter syndrome, just to kind of demonstrate how you would approach that um for individuals in our space.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah. ah So on the gendered match question, I,
00:25:24
Speaker
but Maybe. I'm very lucky to have be very good friends with the coach. He's a young black male and he is very much targeting young males and he's targeting everyone. But because, and the way he approaches, because the you speak to like a young guy, um like the way we're trained to speak is to be, you know to say, um really open, like what's on your mind today?
00:25:49
Speaker
But that's, if you're trying to get a guy to talk, it's not really like you may not get that out of the guy, right? But if you, yeah if you kind of loosen it up, it's like, okay, so what, what's your, what you're thinking about? You know, and so I've watched him coach and he he gets, like he's gotten a lot of traction from some, from men in the men coaching sphere. So there are not a lot of men coaches out there, male coaches out there compared to women.
00:26:10
Speaker
Like it's actually, it's wild how many more women there are. um So that's, so if, if you want somebody that, like that will maybe speak, speak, i ask questions in a language that you're more comfortable with and not uptight. Because I think if you're like depending on the person, the coach, then, you know, men would probably feel more comfortable with men.
00:26:32
Speaker
um But that's something because I'm saying more like a non, non-corporate environment. But if you had a corporate coach, I don't think it really matters. um But also you get the coach, like, if I can, if I see, it we have a, we have an intake, I hear how you talk.
00:26:47
Speaker
If you're not quiet, you shoot jokes. I'm probably going to be a little bit more loose or ask you like, do you want me to be a little bit more loose in how I talk to you? be more but Or do you want me to be more quiet and demure when I ask questions? It's like, i I'll change my approach with the person I'm dealing with, right? Because I'm not going to be you know brash and um ah you know being loud if if the person's not like that. So i i know I have coached men and it doesn't make a difference. I think there's there's a bit of that, but there can be, as it like as I said before, there can be a dynamic where men would feel more comfortable with a man because some, because the way we're trained is very gentle and can tell it's almost trained by women.
00:27:26
Speaker
So, um, yeah. And the second, oh, sorry, go ahead. i was going to say, and then about the imposter syndrome, let's make sure we hit on that. Yeah. the impulse yeah Yeah, I know So it's like in all the conversations that I had, that I've had over time, um that that even the imposter syndrome is one of the things that's actually come up the most. Like even for as long as I can remember is people coming in the room and saying like, I don't belong here. I don't but belong here.
00:27:53
Speaker
And so I've always kind of known that. It's always been like I'm not, you know, seeing more things imposter syndrome is not new to me. And it's part of the conversations, but I did, It's something I've really been honing in on. And but if you do a quick, like just look up imposter syndrome online, um Forbes magazine has like, like a list, like it's just a full page on Google of articles written by Forbes magazine.
00:28:18
Speaker
So either they're recycling material for content, which is possible, or this is a real issue that, you know, everyone deals with. And one of the articles that I read recently, there was a a survey done by Korn Ferry and they're a consulting firm based out the U.S. but international. They do a Like CEO placements. Executive recruiting, yeah. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so they did a survey among their CEOs that they've placed and 71% of them experienced imposter syndrome.
00:28:50
Speaker
Like that's that's a lot, right? I mean, even just the two of you on the call are saying you both experienced it. So 71% is like just kind of jarring. And one of the quotes that the CEO from Corey Ferry, it really stood out when I read it. And so I actually took notes of it.
00:29:03
Speaker
says, um increasingly employees are looking to their employers to provide more guidance and care than ever before. But if they are uncertain in their own ability to lead, it sets a challenging precedent and for motivation across the company.
00:29:18
Speaker
So you have this one, like, so go oh, it's just imposter syndrome, but it actually has a trickle down effect through the entire company. Right. And it's, you know, when you've got a consulting firm is, is I feel like if they're, if they're talking about it, it's what they're like they're seeing stuff across the board.
00:29:36
Speaker
But so like, what is imposter syndrome? Like, I don't feel like I belong. You know, it's, you know, you know what it feels like because you we all know what it feels like to be an imposter, but what is it really? And at the base of it, it's a confidence issue.
00:29:51
Speaker
there's something in us that's like, that's not confident and like, okay, I don't belong here. It's a self-doubt, anxiety, the fear of being unqualified, even though you might have a like a litany of qualifications behind you.
00:30:04
Speaker
um
00:30:08
Speaker
Like, I don't, I don't, I actually don't know anyone who hasn't, who hasn't said that they've, you know, at some point felt that they were an imposter. And I think that there are, good I would, I will state though, there is, there's like the imposter,
00:30:22
Speaker
or it feels like imposter when you you, you started a new job and you're like, I just don't know my job. And you, you're kind of like, it's like almost change management. Like you're just trying to acclimatize yourself to being in this role.
00:30:33
Speaker
And so you feel like an imposter for a brief period. I think that's, that's one form of imposter. But then there's that, that other really, that deep rooted imposter that, is there for everything. It's not just that first day that you start or the first week. It's like, it's always following you around. Like ah year I'm doing a keynote address, even though I'm the most qualified person in the room. And I just want to run away because I think they all think I'm stupid.
00:31:01
Speaker
Right. Like really basic. I think they all think I'm stupid or they're they're going to think I'm stupid. Like we revert down to these really basic messages in our mind that start telling us, start negging us and start telling us that we're not good. Right. Which is perfectly natural as social primates. Right. We're very hyper conditioned to do we belong?
00:31:23
Speaker
Are we part of the tribe or being put outside the tribe? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, but like, what, so that voice in our head though, who is it? And so I always challenge people, like who really is that voice in your head? Oh, interesting.
00:31:39
Speaker
Right. Because that voice, I mean, you you have, we, we have that, you know, ah might be, might be, uh, our religious upbringing gave us our personality, our parents, like we have our, we you know, we might do things because we, our environment, but But the that voice in our head, who is it really? And when you ask people the question, it can stop them their tracks, right? And like, well, that voice is me. Like, is it?
00:32:06
Speaker
Is it you? Like, did you wake up one morning and think that you looked fat in those pants? Like, not tomorrow, not yesterday, but like one day you woke up and you just decided that you looked bad. or was that a message somebody gave you and you don't even realize it years ago?
00:32:26
Speaker
that And you don't you don't have to know where. You don't have to you don't have to know where that message came from. But... It could yes. Oh my God, Rochelle. It could be like some snide cutting remark from like a decade ago. Just like... Oh, dude, the intrusive thought? The intrusive thought that hits from you driving you. somebody, some asshole said something to you on what they thought was some flippant remark and it's just stuck in there like a splinter in your brain and it's just there. double or nothing. When you like...
00:32:56
Speaker
When you actually do something that is kind of a fuck up and you know it is and like worse it if it's public and you've like pushed it away in your head and it happened like 10 or 15 or 20 years ago and you're just driving along or you're doing whatever in your day, it just pops back up.
00:33:10
Speaker
Just has to remind you because your day is too good. so you got to feel shitty about yourself. What a little bitch. Right. Because, because you have this deep rooted belief that, well, I'm not good enough or like, I don't deserve this.
Reprogramming Mindset
00:33:22
Speaker
it's like that, i always think of that, like, like we are, we are computers, right? We are like, there's, there's, we are, we are lines of code. We are lines of programming that we've taken in from ah stories that we were told as children, um images that we saw that are similar to us in news things that happen to us. Right. And all those, like when you want to reprogram yourself, you have to kind of think about those things and layers and, um, like how do you fix them? I guess is the question. And you can go to therapy and I like talk therapy is, is good and it's necessary.
00:33:57
Speaker
I also fan of like more radical things like, uh, hypnotherapy and EMDR because it just, it's, it's instant, right? Like you can easily like fix the code really quickly. ah But there's, there's a, like a, I'm going to go a tangent right now, but one of my favorite tricks and is that voice that talks to us in our head when it's like, you know, yeah, you did that shitty thing 10 years ago.
00:34:23
Speaker
okay, fuck off. Like, why are you talking to me? Right. But when when when we think of that voice as yes it's my voice and my, I am reminding myself how shitty I then we believe it.
00:34:38
Speaker
But it's, it's, this kind of goes hand in hand too with that messaging when you like, when you, ah you see, it you see all again, going back to social media, you see it online. Like, would you talk to your friend the way you talk to yourself? And the answer is no, I i wouldn't. Right.
00:34:51
Speaker
But then how do you, but and then people are like, well, I'm going to do be toxic positive. i going to be toxic positive and I'm be positive all the time. And that does have benefits about thinking positively. Like I'm not going to stop that, but it becomes toxic positive when you don't believe it and you just keep saying the words and you really don't believe it because deep down you feel like you're a piece of shit.
00:35:10
Speaker
You don't know why you feel like a piece of shit. yeah yeah and's not that's it Right. But when you, what, when you, if you can visualize in your mind or even like that, that voice is never you, right? Like that voice, like,
00:35:25
Speaker
I like a pull of spaghetti. I like spaghetti. Well, that's me as my voice. But you know, the the person who's like, I'm going to spill that spaghetti on myself and look like an asshole.
00:35:37
Speaker
I shouldn't eat that spaghetti. Like that voice that's telling me I shouldn't eat this spaghetti because I'm going to be an asshole. Like that's not me. That's somebody who saw me make a fool of myself at lunch in fifth grade. Yes.
00:35:49
Speaker
These phantoms that haunt us. that's now part of who I am. Right. And I saw, um so Mogadot is, he's his former CEO at Google and X and,
00:36:00
Speaker
He's ah he also like he's written books on happiness and solving the happiness equation. I really love some of his work. And he had a podcast and I heard this and it's been of my favorite things that I've ever heard. So so I'm like, I do value some of the stuff that's the self-help world, right? With the growth.
00:36:17
Speaker
He said, just if you other that voice in your head, and you call it, I call mine Becky. i heard somebody online say, oh, you should call the voice in your head, ah a political leader you don't like, right? Someone you really hate or something, you And when you start, like when that when you hear that voice and you actively tell yourself, that's not you, that's somebody else who's trying to ruin my day.
00:36:43
Speaker
a at first it feels really uncomfortable, right Because you're like, oh, it's, on you know, I, I'm telling myself to fuck off. Like I would, I would say it out loud personally when I, when I started implementing this tool, but when you, when you tell yourself like, fuck off, I'm not going to shit the bed at this meeting. of Sorry for swearing. No, we swear all the time. It's right. But if you're like, Becky, Becky, get out. Yeah. Get the fuck out of here, Becky. Fuck off, Becky. The date's going to go fine. Like stop.
00:37:11
Speaker
you know It does create some distance. Yeah. it It creates distance. And the more that you tell the voice to go away, the quieter it becomes.
00:37:22
Speaker
And when you enter the room... Next time and you feel like you're an imposter, you enter the room, i guarantee you'll feel less. Like the more you practice that, andre like i you'll you'll feel less um like, oh my God, I'm an imposter. Because that voice that's saying you're an imposter is actually that is actually Becky, who's very chirpy in your ear. But when you don't listen to them anymore but and you you you train your mind over time to ignore just like the voice might still be there. Like I still hear Becky, when she but sometimes i'll I'll hear her and like,
00:37:56
Speaker
you know she'll come and say, well, don't fuck up. I'm like, thank you. I'm definitely going to do this now. and I'm definitely not going to fuck up. Like it's, so when you talk about mindset and stuff, so even like a lot of the stuff I see on on social media,
00:38:09
Speaker
It's very much like change your environment, change your habits and stuff
Beyond Self-Help Content
00:38:12
Speaker
like that. And I agree with all that kind of stuff. But when you have lines of broken code in your system where you are self-sabotaging and you're like, well, I'll just, I'll read a book. Like I love Atomic Habits as a book. It's a really good book.
00:38:24
Speaker
um There's a bunch of other, you self-help books that I've read. the one thing that I always see is like, if you don't actually address the broken code, all those things, you'll end up going back in time.
00:38:38
Speaker
Right. um As a thing, so like as a coach, I can't. This is like why the self-help industry turns on, right? Because there's always one more promise, one more thing that you can read and, you know, it's going to fix your life. So, but you got to do the work. You got to put in the work.
00:38:58
Speaker
You do. And that's something i actually want to touch on too, is that um the we get a dopamine hit, right? Like when you see something and you learn something new, and so you you watch a reel you're like, oh, this is excellent. And I'm sure it's the same with AI. So you watch a reel or you watch like little five minute clip or you do like even ah an element of a session and like, okay, cool.
00:39:21
Speaker
You get a dopamine hit, you get a release in your brain, feels great. I learned something. And then you walk away. So you didn't implement anything, but you got the reward.
00:39:32
Speaker
yes And so there's not incentive to do the reward. It's like you showed up at the track and they gave you the gold ribbon, but you didn't actually run the race. yeah And you walk away feeling great. I feel great. I got this ribbon. I got this little trophy. was like, wait, how what was your time in the 400? I didn't run it I didn't do anything. That's exactly exactly. So I find like with the the plethora of choices and the, you know, the amount of things you have out there, like it's very easy to think that you're doing the work or to think that you're, you know, I'm consuming content. i'm consuming content.
00:40:08
Speaker
Yes. And you're getting a dopamine hit from that. But you're not actually going through your your your your own your own internal programming and sitting in the discomfort sometimes of yeah the reality of like truths about things that we tell ourselves, right?
Self-Care for Coaches
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah. Well, in the in the final minutes here, Rochelle, you had mentioned how exhausting coaching can be, that hypervigilance that is required of you.
00:40:35
Speaker
um And I always think about this when I think about performance coaches, whether it's like they're athletic coaches or these others, I always think about like, what do they do on their days off? So final question to you is how are you, I guess, filling up the tank or, you know, re-energizing yourself because, know,
00:40:53
Speaker
you know, go through a week of coaching, it's going to be tiring. But, you know, the next week, the next set of clients, you've got to show up for them. So how do you, what are you doing for yourself? And, and, and, well, she's still, she still babysits government workers. Let's. Yeah. well yes was okay well
00:41:11
Speaker
ah I definitely need my alone time. um I'm not a full on introvert, but I definitely need some mal alone time. And I do have a sauna as well. and I go to the gym. Lovely. Yeah. So I find like movement is something like moving my body and doing stuff with my body works well for me. That's one thing. Everyone needs to find out what they respond really well to.
00:41:31
Speaker
And I also like, ah there's meditation, but if I'm meditation, people think of you're like, you know, yeah. But meditation is just like, I can get on a spin bike and meditate, right? Because it's just, it's very, you know, somatic. You're just doing the same movement over and over again, but then letting the brain relax and letting the brain, because it is very mentally draining. So anything that where my brain can disconnect is, ah is my self-care in between.
00:41:54
Speaker
Wonderful. Well, Rochelle, thank you so much for the time and the attention and coaching us through coaching. Really appreciate it. Yeah, you're the best. Thank you. No, it's been a lot of fun. i really appreciate it Thank you.
00:42:11
Speaker
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00:42:24
Speaker
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00:42:38
Speaker
I'm George K. I'm George A. Whoa, dude. Totally redlined. He like totally maxed out the levels there. was our Let's go.