Transcript
Mohammad Khan: I like it like that it gave us a timer because you know we are so prepared for this podcast.
Anwar: Which is called?
Mohammad Khan: ah It's the episode one of Gulf Spec. um
Anwar: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, we named it. yeah
Anwar: Yeah, and I remember. yeah yeah know sorry I'm um um i remembering that you named it um because it's a very good name. Well done. And then I remembered it actually quite good.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, so i mean like let's start off by introducing ourselves.
Anwar: Good. Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Why don't you go first?
Anwar: OK. My name is Anwar. um I currently work in Germany. I've worked with a very happily actually work with Mo in the Gulf on selling cars, ah specifically doing campaigns for big companies. Am I wrong?
Anwar: um
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: Yeah, your eyes went wide.
Mohammad Khan: I mean, a lot more it than I did, yeah.
Anwar: thought was something wrong. ah Yeah, um I don't know.
Mohammad Khan: yeah
Anwar: ive Lots of brands. I think pertinent to these conversations now probably will be ah but a bit of Jaguar Land Rover. That will be fun to talk about. um
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: A lot more of Stellantis and now more recently Porsche, but of motorsport. So it's cool to see the business from that perspective. Mo? ah
Mohammad Khan: ah Right, then am Mo, as Anwar has pointed out. And I've also I mean, other than the fact that we're both like huge car enthusiasts and the fact that we're doing this podcast just because we wanted to put a place put our conversations in a place somewhere because they're actually kind of interesting in my opinion.
Mohammad Khan: um
Anwar: Yeah, and this is not the group chat.
Mohammad Khan: ah We, yeah, but this is, this is, yeah, this is our, this made it out of the group chat.
Anwar: This is the most important.
Mohammad Khan: That's what happened.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: But we both do have some automotive qualifications. Anwar, definitely more than I do, but I've spent a lot of time working on advertising campaigns, social media campaigns for Nissan, for infinity, for some ah dealer groups.
Mohammad Khan: Some work on JLR. I think we overlapped. We were at the same place at the same time, but I don't know if I ever really did much of that. But yeah, I think that's ah that's a decent. Right now I do nothing associated to either of those.
Mohammad Khan: So my career is completely irrelevant when it comes to cars or advertising. Hence this podcast, which is an outlet for all the car things I need to say. Yeah,
Anwar: Pretty good.
Mohammad Khan: that's right.
Anwar: You have a list of stuff, right, that you want to talk about.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah. I mean, I thought it'd be good to kind of frame our discussion. So let's start off with, I think like, it's not even an elephant in the room anymore. It is the room and it is the fact that The UAE car market in particular, I can't speak for um other golf markets or other markets in general, but it's, I think what every, this is, I'm making this up. This is not a real statistic, but it feels like every third car is Chinese now.
Mohammad Khan: Like I went, like, I just, I went out for a coffee run this morning.
Anwar: Mm-hmm.
Mohammad Khan: parked and in the parking lot, I parked next to a GWM and a Jator. And like, you know, with my Japanese car and I'm like, okay,
Mohammad Khan: What's going on here? Like there was actually two out of three cars in the parking lot were Chinese. And I'm wondering, like, there's a few things like, because when I was buying my car back in 2022, I drive a Mazda six for the record, which is the greatest car ever made. um ah True story. And the ah the Chinese cars weren't that prominent. They were around. You could go buy yourself an MG. um You could buy any number of like a cherry or a Geely or whatever.
Mohammad Khan: But they they weren't super prominent. And then since that point, like it's exploded. There's so many Chinese offerings. Some of them are really, really good. They're priced super competitively.
Mohammad Khan: And I guess what I want to look at is why is this happened? is you know Is it just that they entered the market or whatever?
Anwar: Right.
Mohammad Khan: or And are any of these actually good? And then from you know Alex and i are both enthusiasts, you know From an enthusiast perspective, is there anything fruit that enthusiasts can get behind here?
Mohammad Khan: you know Or is it just like all appliances? So I don't know where you want to start with that or go with that, but...
Anwar: Yeah, I think maybe i can probe because obviously I've left, so it might be interesting to probe part of that. um Are they all electric? Are they hybrid? Are they electrified? ah like That's an interesting question because everyone keeps talking about um Chinese electric, but I can imagine actually they're not all electric, right?
Mohammad Khan: They're no, I think for the, the largest part of them seem to be the largest majority, or I guess the majority of them seem to be ice cars at this moment. So internal combustion, they're just regular ass cars.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: I, um,
Anwar: that feels like the scapegoat conversation or this like the scapegoat argument to say yeah well you know they're really good at this but they're not no one ever talks about the fact that most of these cars are not actually electric and they are good enough for the gulf which ah just a sidebar I guess gulf spec is something that hopefully you'll know what it means um it means a specific car built for the gulf for the conditions of the gulf which are very hot and very different so if it can live out there then it can probably do okay in most countries as well So I think it's quite interesting that they're doing well in that kind of harsh market, right?
Mohammad Khan: Yeah. And it's also like if we look at the, I guess, specific ah quirks or, you know, parts of the u UAE market in particular is that it's a very image conscious market. So the fact that this number of people are okay driving like a Geely, for example,
Mohammad Khan: you know, it says something about Chinese cars. Like they, they've definitely hit a chord with the audience or is this a market driven thing? Right? Like, because I think about it and like, if you get on Reddit and you go look at some of the UAE car forums and threads or whatever, right? Like what you will see is in equal measure, people ah like really hating on UAE, uh, on, um, Chinese cars and in equal measure people asking, oh I'm going to go buy this or I bought this and I loved it.
Mohammad Khan: Or, you know, um
Anwar: um Am I allowed to get away with owning it? I think that's an interesting way of looking at it. It feels like a lot of questions come into this is a great proposition. Where's the catch? Right?
Anwar: And I think the ah the thing that most people come back to is that like, hey, maybe there isn't as much of a catch as that there was in the past. And it's just the car. It does its job. but
Mohammad Khan: Well, you and I worked on a pitch for MG before they were cool. and
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: And I think one of the big things I remember from that, and and I think MG provided a ah useful scapegoat to people like that, right? Is that it's British, which, you know, ah what car makers are anymore is a, you know, in this globalized, I guess, era to a certain extent.
Anwar: Well,
Mohammad Khan: What does that even matter or mean anymore, right? Like, okay, Ferrari is clearly Italian, but like, where's Ford You know, so
Anwar: but I mean, actually what's funny is that Ford's now in this world, I remember having conversations with some people at Ford and seeing some more recent documents, they were trying to push more for a American style Ford in Europe. So they were trying to kind of say that they are an American company because as you said, there's like four Fords, I'd say.
Anwar: what There's an American Ford, British Ford, European Ford, and Australian Ford, which is separate company.
Mohammad Khan: On East Ford.
Anwar: Hmm?
Mohammad Khan: Chinese Ford. So this is where I want to go with this as well, right?
Anwar: Well, hmm.
Mohammad Khan: Like if you look at some of the base models or some of the lower end, not even base models, like if you look at Ford's lineup right now in the UAE and even Chevrolet's lineup, it's largely composed of cars that were designed, engineered and built for the Chinese market by the Chinese market.
Mohammad Khan: So
Anwar: or India would like a Ford EcoSport or EcoSport.
Mohammad Khan: even what i think four didn't Ford fold in India? I think they're done.
Anwar: Well, I can't remember if it's a Brazilian market car or Indian market car, but it was a third world and it's not a nice term to use or ah I don't know, popular term.
Mohammad Khan: The emerging market, the developing market, um I don't know if India is.
Anwar: Yeah.
Anwar: But that was a car.
Mohammad Khan: I think it's there, but whatever. yeah
Anwar: um But that was a car made for there, right?
Mohammad Khan: ah The EcoSport was Brazilian. The Figo was Indian, if I remember correctly, which was like ah basically like a watered-down Fiesta.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: But, I mean, like over here, you've got what you've got the Ford Territory, which is like a techie SUV, which is built off a JV like joint venture like platform from Chang'an.
Mohammad Khan: You've got the you've got the Taurus.
Anwar: full territory what the heck is this hey that's just that's just a that's just the cherry
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: I mean,
Anwar: With a different badge on the front.
Mohammad Khan: Oh, the new one, I think it looks very Ford. Like it's got like the Mustang kind of rear lights and the you know, it's it's
Anwar: Now, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see it.
Mohammad Khan: You know, I think it used to be a Cherry or a Chang'an. I can't remember which one it was. But then it went to, it got restyled. It got its glow up. And now it's kind of a, it it seems like a Ford in its own right. But then if you, it's actually still the Chinese platform.
Mohammad Khan: It's from the joint venture.
Anwar: You haven't mentioned an enthusiast car yet and that was kind of one of your one of your points.
Mohammad Khan: Well, I want to go back to the market drivers, right?
Anwar: ah but
Mohammad Khan: Like, is this kind of, um, You've got, okay, so you've even got the mainstream manufacturers like China, like a Chevrolet and Ford and stuff offering Chinese models. Um, the, uh, and I think a lot of that is, is the, is this happened because the, um, uh,
Mohammad Khan: Because cars have become so expensive. Like people are really complaining about like, I mean, what I think the markup on Mercedes in this country, I mean, i is like, what, 200 or 400%?
Mohammad Khan: It's something stupid. I remember there was a statistic that went out.
Anwar: In the UAE? In India?
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Anwar: Oh my God. Okay.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, yeah. Like, I think you you can, any Mercedes you buy, I don't know whether it was compared to the US s or Europe, but it was like, you can expect to pay 200% more or something like that. I remember there was a statistic that went out and people were kind of annoyed about it. And that's, that's that you know, it talks about the prevalence of like,
Mohammad Khan: um gray market imports from the us or from Japan or whatever is because cars here are so expensive and often they're decontented right like you you go buy like a base model Corolla and like a base model Corolla costs more and has less stuff than like a us base model or Corolla right so then sorry
Anwar: Hmm.
Anwar: yeah is that um
Mohammad Khan: sorry
Anwar: Is that a legal markup or is it just the dealer being um ah doing a capitalism, let's say?
Mohammad Khan: I feel like as the dealers doing a capital. Because like you have like, for the most part, you have what one dealer per car manufacturer. Sometimes it gets split down between Abu Dhabi and Dubai, right?
Mohammad Khan: Like between certain.
Anwar: Yeah, but those are handshakes as well, right?
Mohammad Khan: I don't
Anwar: they These people know each other. This is not competition. You don't go for one or the other. I think it's very easy to kind of point out that
Mohammad Khan: I'm not well versed on that, to be honest. Like, I don't know how the the dealer breakdown works here anymore. It's been a while. But the but what I do know is that like I feel like the Chinese are coming plugging that gap, right?
Mohammad Khan: Like, you can buy, let's say you got 100,000 dirhams.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: You can't get a Camry with 100,000 dirhams, if I'm correct. You can get a Mazda 6, but it'll be like a base model at this point or something like that, which is ah it's like a decade old car.
Mohammad Khan: I love it. But it is an old platform with old technology.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: It you know drives beautifully, looks great. But ultimately, the infotainment system, it feels it. It came from another era. um And for a lot for the mask, and for me, that's great.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: I'm like, yeah, I don't want my car full of screens and tech and whatnot. But for most consumers, that's not it. That's not what they want.
Anwar: Mm-hmm.
Mohammad Khan: um ah Volkswagen doesn't even sell a midsize sedan anymore. So what are you left with? I mean, MG, Bestoon, Geely, these guys will all sell you sedans at that old price point between like 70 and 100,000 dirhams, like for a midsize sedan, and they will come with a decent amount of equipment as well.
Mohammad Khan: So...
Anwar: i And what's funny is that we keep hearing the argument, especially with from Ford, and know we're picking on them, but like they've killed their own anything but SUVs in their line because they said that there's no demand.
Anwar: But at least in the Gulf, which is actually quite a big market now, um I look at all the different brands that doing quite well in the Gulf. There are a lot of people looking for sedans. I don't know, saloons, I'm British, I need say saloon.
Anwar: um I don't know if um that's something that isn't necessarily true in the higher-end market, or they're still looking for SUVs, but I can imagine in just like the commuter market, it's quite popular, right?
Mohammad Khan: Well, yeah, there's also the there's also Ford actually sells a sedan here. They call it the Taurus, which is the Chinese market Mondeo. So, I mean, that's worth noting.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: But also, like, who is it? Felipe Munoz, right? The car industry analysis or whatever, the guy from famous from Instagram um that does all the sales figures and stuff. He did a top 10 list of the UAE um car of you a car sales.
Mohammad Khan: And I think it was very interesting because I think the Jetour T2 was number five or something on that list. like right below the Defender. And i think it was like a few thousand cars difference. Right. I can't remember what the exact number was, um but it was behind it was barely behind the Defender.
Mohammad Khan: And that's interesting because um
Anwar: It's barely different than a Defender, that's why it's interesting.
Mohammad Khan: Well, it's also, I think, okay, so I think it's one of those products where, I don't know if it's, I don't, I kind of disagree with the fact that it's a wholesale clone. I think it looks different enough. I feel like it's just, you know, that point where styling like kind of converges and everything kind of starts looking the same.
Mohammad Khan: It's just that they were following, were following the trend. every Even the new the new Land Cruiser Prado thing, it borrows from the Defender, right? That blocky,
Anwar: No, it borrows from it. Okay, like here's a nice ah and a nice discussion.
Mohammad Khan: yeah.
Anwar: So first thing, if
Mohammad Khan: That was part of a stling trend that the defender brought on, even if it does borrow from its own, uh, like thing.
Anwar: History. That's my point. Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: Like there's, that there's, there's reasons the Land Cruiser, that Land Cruiser looks like that Land Cruiser because it looks like the old Land Cruiser, but the old Land Cruiser was based on a Jeep and everything. link And really everything looks like a Jeep.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: If you see, I sent you a picture of little sticker on Instagram. Now tell me that thing I just sent you now as an offender.
Mohammad Khan: Dude, I see these on a regular basis. I think they're differentiated enough. There's something else, by the way. There are a few other Chinese Defender clones on the road that are really Defender.
Mohammad Khan: But i' I'll give Jitu a little bit of credit, right, for trying to differentiate it a bit.
Anwar: uh all right screw it that is a defender
Mohammad Khan: But...
Mohammad Khan: It's proportionally different. The surfaces are different. You know what? But that's not the point. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole. We've got another Defender topic coming up. So there though the fact is the Defender is a what? 300,000-aer car.
Mohammad Khan: This thing's 140,000, 150,000, half the price. this thing's and forty hundred fifty thousand like half the price um great tech. And I think it's it's not just that, it's the affordable not just the affordability, it's the fact that there seems to be a huge aftermarket where people are accessorizing these things, customizing them.
Mohammad Khan: I've heard from, ah now anecdotally, I've heard of people that were given wait times for Defender orders or couldn't get an allocation or whatever, because they're so in demand here, that they just walked out, walked into a Jatora dealership and bought a Defender instead and have been happier.
Anwar: A what, sorry?
Mohammad Khan: or
Anwar: A GTOR Defender? I think it might be a bit of a um yeah good type. Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: instead. The Jator Defender. They bought that instead and they've been happier.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Like we have a friend whose father-in-law sold his G-Wagon to buy one of these because he's just like, oh, who needs that? You know? So that might be an outlier.
Anwar: um When you see a...
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: Yeah, no, no, no, no. but It's a good anecdote. When you see a T2, do you go... do to to Like the Terminator? Because that's the only thing I think of. It's got a great name. T1000.
Mohammad Khan: There's a T1 now.
Anwar: The T1000. but t one thousand to t one thousand
Mohammad Khan: The T1...
Mohammad Khan: The T1 looks more like a Bronco. I actually do not remember, sadly. like I do not remember Terminator well enough to understand the reference.
Anwar: but but to to your point i think there's two yeah there's two points there's like um there's the there's the post co there was a pre-covered rush up market for chasing profitability there was a covered weirdness and a glut and a price jump that kind of stayed there and from their legacy manufacturers and then now there's
Mohammad Khan: I know... Yeah. Anyway, sorry.
Mohammad Khan: Mm-hmm.
Anwar: this evacuation of the lower end of the market that has created a vacuum that Chinese cars who, again, people said, oh, you know, they have electric, they've just ended up filling the market. And if there's no legislative reason to keep them out, which the reason I don't see many here is because and legislatively, they don't want to allow the Chinese in here because they know that the moment they're in, they're kind of inn it takes, what, five years to kind of put a car, six years to put a car on the road.
Anwar: um And if you've not been making these cars for so long, youre like these Chinese cars will come and take the new car market. And what's really funny is people say, like ah again, I live in Germany.
Anwar: um i look at the I look at the traffic a lot um all over the country. And what's interesting is people keep saying, you know the SUV, the SUV, and there are a lot of SUVs, but there's a lot of old cars as well. And those old cars are not SUVs.
Anwar: So in fact, most of the traffic isn't SUVs and people are still very used to seeing and experiencing or being in a non SUV. So if somebody comes and says, you can buy an SUV from a legacy manufacturer for 30% more or just a car.
Anwar: And if like, if everything you own is already made in China and if Germany might be an exception because they still make cars here, but if there's no one's even making cars in your country, really, then you just go, well,
Anwar: As a human being, of ah you know a family man or whatever, or a like and family lady, um I'll go, you know these cars are good enough. And I think what they've done now is they've proven that they're good enough. And to your point, actually, last thing i want to say, that G Tour is not ugly.
Anwar: And I can be, I think I can very confidently say Chinese cars used to be really ugly.
Mohammad Khan: That's true.
Anwar: And I think they've got through their um ugly teenage years. Right. And now, yeah, like they are respectable to be seen in. That's a fine car. this
Mohammad Khan: lot of them look really good to that point.
Anwar: Yeah. But they didn't.
Mohammad Khan: Like, yeah, that's true.
Anwar: Right. They didn't. i So I think it might be.
Mohammad Khan: They didn't look like clones, right?
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Like, don't know if you've seen an MG7, which is competitor to a Camry or a Mazda 6 or whatever, it's got to be good.
Anwar: Reminding myself now.
Mohammad Khan: $100,000 midsize sedan around that price point. It's got like a retractable spoiler. It's actually a very good looking car, in my opinion. mean The face is a big
Anwar: It looks very Maserati-esque. Oh, I just saw one that it it makes me feel like some kind of baby Bentley, which I don't think they would mind and me saying at all.
Anwar: That's not bad.
Mohammad Khan: yeah it looks, it's got that whole swoopy four door coupe thing going on. I mean, I'm all for it. Like if I had to replace my car tomorrow, like I would definitely, definitely look at that.
Mohammad Khan: And that, yeah, you just sent me a picture of a green one. That is the color, but yeah. And I think that lets us segue into the, ah you also said it was your last point. So like this, yeah, the, it comes interior.
Anwar: and That's not bad.
Mohammad Khan: You can go green over tan with this thing.
Anwar: And it's an MG.
Mohammad Khan: So at the, Yeah, it's like, i don't know. I still, and know a lot of people are like, oh, MG is not MG anymore. But, you know, i i don't know. Just having that badge says something to me.
Anwar: ah but but One thing I remember someone telling me quite clever, which is there's price elasticity, right?
Mohammad Khan: I don't
Anwar: And legacy manufacturers were too reliant on the priced in elasticity of their products and of people, people not being willing to kind of drop. But if something is 30% cheaper and does the same job, then you know what? Screw your brand. It that it works.
Anwar: So there is like, there's an argument, there's a case study. I don't know what you'd call it, but like there's a theres something to talk about. The... the elasticity of a product like that kind of car that the legacy manufacturers had they got wrong. And this is my last point.
Anwar: um I think it was arrogance. And I think it was also the only argument they could make because they were so screwed. They had nothing else they could do. They couldn't, if they're coming and they're really good, this is, you have to make that argument because there's too many people in that company to, or for somebody really senior, like Jim Farley, who even said the SU sevens are fantastic car. Someone very senior needs to turn up and say, pay attention to this.
Anwar: Otherwise everyone's going to back slap each other and say, It's not really a problem. That's it.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, this is where Mazda screwed themselves, right? Like, it looks like they went, nice mug. um
Anwar: Sparkle sharp.
Mohammad Khan: um But they Mazda went up market to differentiate themselves from the Chinese, not to, you know, play in that race to the bottom. That was my feel on that. And now they're screwed. I think nobody wants the premium Mazdas.
Mohammad Khan: They're not particularly reliable from what I've heard. They're really well made, drive really well.
Anwar: Really?
Mohammad Khan: They feel premium as hell, but Mazda is not a premium brand. It's not, it just isn't. I'm sorry. I love them.
Anwar: Did it not zoom zoom enough?
Mohammad Khan: Yeah. And that's why I think that they're backpedaling that a little bit. And, but anyway, that's not the point. I think what is the point
Anwar: Oh, and by the way, to that point, sorry, Autocar magazine and this week featured a Mazda 6.
Mohammad Khan: My favorite.
Anwar: Your favourite?
Mohammad Khan: six Yeah, it sucks.
Anwar: Yeah, know. This... Yeah, the six electric. And they're like, this isn't it, guys, because it's just a Chinese car that they've tried to pedal as an expensive premium Mazda six, and it's just not working. But it's funny that the V magazine has said that and it's reviewing it.
Anwar: Yeah, that's it.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, it's no, no, I get it but It's such a disappointment because like you would have thought, okay, fine, sure. They're way ahead on electric tech from what everyone says, right?
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: So like, um why not just use their platforms, their technology, especially if you've got a joint venture going on, and actually um build something new out of it?
Mohammad Khan: I thought that's what Mazda was going to deliver, but what they've done is they've the Mazda DNA is gone, right? It's not nice to drive.
Anwar: Mm-mm.
Mohammad Khan: it's It's just an appliance. It might as well, like, i think it would have been passable as a Toyota or something.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Sorry, Toyota. um But it's not it's not a Mazda. Mazdas are meant to be enthusiast-y. And I think that takes me to our final point on these Chinese cars is that um have they put out anything for enthusiasts? And I think there's a couple things here.
Mohammad Khan: I know you're probably going to want to talk about the that lightweight sports car that they're putting together that I think Wheels Boy reviewed a little while ago. um
Anwar: Good name, that's why I'm laughing. It's a great name, Wheelsboy.
Mohammad Khan: Wheels Boy, he's that is my favorite YouTube channel right now. Like, no joke. I love Wheels Boy. um
Anwar: I've sent it to quite a few people within the Porsche company as well, and I've had a few conversations about and what's going on there and using him as a um ah as the way to have those conversations. So there's been, i know people within Porsche, like some senior head of development um from the race car and the road car departments who have seen his videos.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, he's he's fun. I mean, like, I don't think he's particularly, you know, he's he's not super critical about the stuff that's not very good, but ah it just gives you a window into a world you otherwise wouldn't have.
Mohammad Khan: And I think that...
Anwar: Yeah, but who is now?
Mohammad Khan: Huh? Maybe
Anwar: that's let's let's Let's talk about that next week if you want. But like car journalism isn't the thing it used to be. um It's just not. the world the world The world has changed, but that's a topic for another podcast.
Mohammad Khan: we should get one of our journalist friends on board to talk about that as well. But the... the think the other, so that what I saw in um my, in, in my local mall recently was ah GAC Empower, which is the R version of the GAC Empower, believe it or not.
Mohammad Khan: And now I think the, The Empow, from what I heard, was a reasonably sporty sedan, right? So like this is like a Mazda 3 or Mazda 6 kind of like regular sedan where it's a bit sporty. It's like nice to drive. People make fun of the fact that it has like fake brake caliper covers or whatever.
Mohammad Khan: But the Empower, I think the guy told me it was $115,000. It's got like sports seats inside turbocharged engine. Like we're talking, what was it like nearly 300 horsepower? i can't remember what the exact specs were, but the thing is you could tell that this is like, okay, we are trying to build a GTI or a type R or something like that here.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: Okay, do you want me to give you something else, by the way? um ah Do you remember, so European tuners, they're a proper part of our legacy. And there's some big names. Most recently, Audi, Apt.
Anwar: Apt was a really big name in this scene. Yeah, there is an Empower apt. So apt have officially, yeah, exactly.
Mohammad Khan: Oh man.
Anwar: Google that. Like you want to talk about trying to do cred. How good is that? You find a microbride like apt who some enthusiasts will know. You tie it up with them and you've got yourself a, um, some credo.
Mohammad Khan: They've done an app in power.
Anwar: i think it's, do you see
Mohammad Khan: Oh man.
Anwar: Yeah. m Empower R.
Mohammad Khan: Is it the empower or is it the empower? I don't know, but.
Anwar: No, it's a GAC Empower R China project with apt.
Mohammad Khan: No, no, was talking about like the actual name of the car. Is it the Empower r or the Empower?
Anwar: how Empower. No, Empower. r um
Mohammad Khan: Empower, okay.
Anwar: but That's a really big business, I think, give you helping them with the names. But again, like that like there's an there's an air of arrogance in that. And I'll be honest, they're eating everybody else's lunch.
Mohammad Khan: I mean, thought Arati name a car after a Happy Meal, so I think the Chinese will be fine with names.
Anwar: I've never had a McDonald's Quattroporte, but maybe I'm not going to McDonald's.
Mohammad Khan: I'm talking about the McPura.
Anwar: but
Mohammad Khan: But yeah, anyway, the...
Anwar: Oh, and by the way, um who is the current World Touring Car Championship brand?
Mohammad Khan: Is it GAC?
Anwar: No, Lincoln Co.
Mohammad Khan: Oh, they have that, yeah.
Anwar: Yeah, and a friend of mine actually was just hanging out with the driver that won the championship, and they drive a Lincoln Co. And what's really funny was they were trying to remember which bloody brand they drove for, but no one could remember it, but it was Lincoln Co. And it's for that reason.
Anwar: And do you know where Lincoln Co. come from? They're a rebrand of another company, really.
Mohammad Khan: That's Linkinco Zeeker.
Anwar: ah It's Volvo. it's vulva Is it but now now now we're showing that we don't know enough? or We should do more prep.
Mohammad Khan: Okay, so so this is what i understand, okay?
Anwar: um
Anwar: Yep.
Mohammad Khan: Geely owns Volvo. They own Polestar.
Anwar: Yes. There we go.
Mohammad Khan: They own Lincoln Co. Lincoln Co.
Anwar: Yeah,
Mohammad Khan: was supposed to be like this rental, like you don't actually own the cars.
Anwar: yeah, yeah.
Mohammad Khan: was supposed to be a subscription service thing.
Anwar: Subscription service thing.
Mohammad Khan: And then I don't think maybe that didn't work out and they went to different direction with it or whatever.
Anwar: There's a dealership here, you know that.
Mohammad Khan: And Lincoln Co.
Anwar: In the middle of town, in the middle of Dusseldorf, there is a dealership, like, experience place.
Mohammad Khan: and lincoln code doesn't, we don't get them here in the UAE, but we get Zeker, which seems to be kind of the same thing. I'm fairly sure. They look very similar. So,
Anwar: I've driven a Zika. I was really impressed. It made me feel sick, but I was very impressed. Not sick because it was bad, it's sick because it...
Mohammad Khan: like, how are the... Mm-hmm.
Anwar: No, actually...
Mohammad Khan: um like how were they
Anwar: um It was an electric Zika. It was really quick. It's very heavy, floaty, and I felt a bit seasick. um like to to let's I think this ties into what we're talking about. I think performance driving and performance cars, um I know it sounds a bit arrogant, but there is something to them that if you get, you get. If you don't, you don't.
Anwar: So the idea of hiring a Lotus, for example, is that they can help you...
Mohammad Khan: Well.
Anwar: Well, yeah.
Mohammad Khan: ah
Anwar: ah um the is Is the idea that they can help you... adapt your entire car, chassis, drive, not not maybe not drivetrain, but chassis and everything ah to have a far more engaging experience driving experience.
Anwar: um That's what was really missing. i think that tuning, but it didn't have that final 10% of tuning and it just felt very weird. It felt like a really big, heavy brick that was on like airbags,
Anwar: It made me feel kind of – it was really quick. It was very nice, but it just wasn't – like if you've been doing something for long enough, there's things you kind of get and you don't. And I don't think they've been doing it long enough, but that arrogance that they will never get it is the reason that we're here.
Anwar: And I think – yeah, go.
Mohammad Khan: The, but with like, well, let's, let's talk about like the Koreans, right? Like it wasn't long ago that I feel, okay. So there were flashes of them kind of getting it right. Like with the, the coupe V6 and stuff like that.
Anwar: ye
Mohammad Khan: But then I think it wasn't really until Hyundai's end line came out that they really started showing, they understood that market. They understood that audience and they understood how to make those types of cars. Right.
Mohammad Khan: So
Anwar: And who was it that they hired to do N-line or N...
Mohammad Khan: I don't know this actually.
Anwar: So M, it was the... So the story is, and I hope I'm saying, I'm putting this out publicly, so I hope I'm right. um The man in charge of BMW M, um and I can't remember his name now because I'm i'm not as clever as I pretend to be.
Anwar: Um, he was at BMW M and there was big discussions about turbocharging at M and he was, he was vehemently against It's like, this is not what BMW M is for. BMW M should be naturally aspirated.
Anwar: Um, and they were like, no, no, no, they push, push, push. And he said, okay, I'm leaving. Hyundai hired that man. he is now the head of n or was the head of n and what's the what's the letter that comes after m was after m is uh they've got other reasons for it but it's a cute little like is there um and he was one of the major reasons and his influence the german m at hyundai to to create these cars that drove properly and he's been the driving force behind it and now they're entering uh the world endurance championship
Anwar: They're in WRC and they've been very successful there. um They're doing touring cars, obviously. They're great. And as you're saying, like that's a country that had no performance history. They don't even have many tracks as we kind of know them.
Anwar: um But they're killing it. Sorry, last thing. If you go to the Nürburgring here, you'd be surprised how many Hyundai Ns you see. So many hatchbacks. It used to be just Golf GTIs, but you see so many Hyundai N cars.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: And it's kind of a bit of a cliche here. Hmm?
Mohammad Khan: ah And so when I was buying my Mazda back in 2022, one of the cars I did look at, they had ah they had a Veloster N sitting in the, like not an N line or anything, a proper N sitting in dealership.
Anwar: Yeah, yeah.
Mohammad Khan: And they said, yeah, we've got one. Do you want this? And it was in my price range and everything, but I just I wanted something bigger. I wanted to be an adult and i bought a sedan. So here we are. But anyway, um i think GAC, when I when I or GAC, however they say it, once again, we need to get educated about these things super fast um because this is the future of motoring, in my opinion.
Anwar: Well, it's now.
Mohammad Khan: Like, yes, now it's now.
Anwar: That's the point. It's not the future. It is now.
Mohammad Khan: But. um
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: the this is the future of the industry and GAC, when I asked on Reddit, I'm like, are there any ah Chinese manufacturers that are putting out cars that you would, you think are actually fun to drive? And I've asked for ah test drive of the Empower at this point.
Mohammad Khan: um So I'll let you know how that goes. But the even the base MPOW, this is what people pointed to towards. They pointed towards the MZoom and the MPOW and they're like nice, fun little turbocharged cars. And I'm like, okay, cool. i would They looked the part.
Mohammad Khan: um'm I'm down to check them out and see if they figured it out. um But yeah, that's that's all I've got on this. It seems like they've figured this out very quickly. I mean, we all know everyone's talking about how they're all ahead of the curve on electric, but can they put together an enthusiast vehicle that will appeal to people like you and me? It looks like they're either they're partially there. They're getting there.
Mohammad Khan: So.
Anwar: And you know where they were before for a quite few seasons in Formula E. There are a lot of they were ah lot of Chinese brands in Formula E. um That series has its own problems.
Anwar: um But the thing that you you are able to do in Formula E is develop your drivetrain. and develop your tuning um of that drivetrain on tires are much more closely related to road tires than ah most single-seater cars and most motorsport cars, racing cars.
Mohammad Khan: Mm-hmm.
Anwar: um And they were there to begin with. I think what they've kind of learned is maybe, and now I'm assuming, that you don't need the credo to sell the stuff or that it's too far. The shape, the silhouette doesn't help you yet. That that kind of like single seat to silhouette doesn't really help you shift cars.
Anwar: You can maybe learn some stuff or pretend to, to be honest, because lots of these teams are just kind of rebadged old teams, but they were there. So I think that that discussion, and that point of, um you know, race on Sunday, sell on Monday,
Anwar: or race on Sunday, develop from that technology and then sell the next week or however you want to put it. um That was something that they were considering. ah Not as much anymore. They're not there anymore um on the grid.
Anwar: But that was interesting. And like I said, after that, um but I was going to say earlier, Link & Co Racing is Polestar. If you remember Polestar, the racing team, That is who manages and operates the Lincoln Co racing team.
Anwar: It's Polestar, the guys who used to race the the Volvos that everyone loved. ah Not the Brick, um but afterwards in global touring, world touring cars, those Volvos are run by Polestar out of Sweden.
Anwar: And now that is Lincoln Co.
Mohammad Khan: So last thing on this, the SC01, I can't remember what the brand was. I think it's like, party I don't remember who the backer is. I'm not going to embarrass myself.
Mohammad Khan: But that was the wheels boy, that $30,000 electric sports car. um Did you watch that? What did you think of that?
Anwar: Yeah. ah Hold on. i want to... i so i so I sent this to some people. I want to remind myself what they said. and
Anwar: Because No, I'll look later. What did I think? um I think...
Anwar: I don't know if you can have an enthusiast electric car. I don't know. The reason I say that is
Anwar: um the engine creates so much experience that when it's removed,
Anwar: I don't know if you can really get somebody to plump down a load of money for something if something already exists and you can buy a second hand or whatever kind of car.
Anwar: the The reason I say that again is every single time I've seen it and I've just read ah the the review of the new Nevera R, right? Because they've updated that thing because it wasn't fast enough. So they've made a new Nevera, the new Nevera R.
Anwar: When I hear the stones and stuff ping on the chassis, because that one's carbon fiber, but anything, because they're quite... It makes this car sound very hollow. And because they have to be made extra lightweight, those sounds are even more hollow. So it just... I think it might be a an impossibility.
Anwar: i'll gonna I'm going to put my hand... I'm going to put my money... Not my money where the mouth is, but I'm going make a statement now. I don't think... And Porsche is about to release one. So, or have been trying to for a long time. I don't know anything about that, but, um, all I do know is what publicly they've said as well, that, um, that thing has been delayed.
Anwar: I don't know if you can make what and he's an extra extra point. Something I was involved in it's on YouTube, the Haggerty video. I think I shared it with you. Um, I went with, um, Henry catch ball and we've recorded a video for Haggerty.
Mohammad Khan: The Cayman, right?
Anwar: Um, Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: The Cayman. Okay.
Anwar: Yeah, it's not. So yeah i absolutely fine. I really recommend watching it. I want more views on the video because it ah it was a cool project. We went down to um an old 60s or 50s Formula One track with, what as Mo said, a 718 body.
Anwar: It was actually a lot of the body comes from a cup car, but it's a multi-million euro prototype that has aero development and aero technology from the LMP1 919 program um to develop a cup car, a single series single make um electric ah car.
Anwar: And what's really interesting was talking to um the engineers there, talking to Henry, talking about the car. um It actually was noisy. It was fun.
Anwar: It's just... Maybe i have a larger point. I don't know if we are, we're open to new things anymore. I'll give you an example of motorsport. GT3 racing is a very new thing. It didn't ever really exist, but we've been stuck in this kind of category for now, like 20 years.
Anwar: Um, and I think the reason we've done that is because nothing ever really changes. I feel like that's a, that's a larger, broader topic. Um, i I don't know if anyone's ready for change.
Anwar: And I think while we can have the thing that already exists, people won't want to even try the new thing. And everyone was really excited about this car. They drove it. It was very noisy. it was very cool. It really, it sounded and interesting. I'll send you a video of it.
Anwar: When you're there, when you record it, it sounds like a jet plane. It sounded incredible, actually. It just didn't sound the same. But when it came around a corner, it sounded like a Harrier. We're just going out. Cool.
Anwar: But,
Anwar: Are we ready to not have the thing that exists until now? I don't think so. So I don't think it's... I don't i actually don't think it's going happen. I don't think while we have are able to drive old cars, anyone will want to plump up.
Anwar: And then my last point is sales numbers. um Nivera, they've sold less than 50. They wanted to make 150. They sold less than 50. I can guarantee if you go down to Lotus, they will sell you one of those, whatever the hell they're called, Elvira.
Anwar: Isn't that Elvira, the one the boobs?
Mohammad Khan: no yeah Okay, I watched the Top Gear video on the EVEA.
Anwar: hu
Mohammad Khan: Okay, so I have beef with the Elettre and EMEA or whatever, this the sedan and the SUV, right?
Anwar: yeah
Mohammad Khan: that and no Those aren't Lotuses. But the EVEA, actually, like, I don't know, man. It does it looks so fast.
Anwar: numbers sales numbers they just aren't selling that's the problem and i think that the thing they're pushing for and now there's also that pen and farina
Mohammad Khan: fast
Anwar: ah you you cannot for lot of money get a new Bugatti, right? V16 hybrid or a G50 or T50. But I can promise you, I could i could go get you a one of those things.
Anwar: And the last point, that Porsche. you remember the electric hypercar Porsche? Yeah, i haven't seen one yet. And that was meant to be for 75 years of Porsche. Again, I don't know anything specifically about it.
Mohammad Khan: I think it was brown.
Anwar: Huh?
Mohammad Khan: It was the mission concept or whatever.
Anwar: Mission X. Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: And it was meant to be Porsche 75 year birthday present to itself. It was always, ah you know, promoted as a a concept car, I think to test the market. They even put it in Gran Turismo to get some people to kind of like have a look and global play with it.
Anwar: I haven't seen any plans to develop it. And I think everyone's seeing the same thing that.
Mohammad Khan: But there's new Ferrari hypercar, McLaren hypercar, and Aston did one too. And there's the Gordon Murray, yet Porsche is missing.
Anwar: Yes, and they were trying to do an electric car because that's where they want to push or they have to be pushing, but it's not here And the baby one's not here yet And at the end of the day, these are loads of opinions. But what matters, as you said, with that guy, sales numbers, they aren't there.
Mohammad Khan: I think we've drifted into another topic and i'm I'm happy to pick this one up now. I think because we've gone as and far into it. We were talking about the SC01. It's like a sports car.
Anwar: Well, think it's the same topic.
Mohammad Khan: Okay.
Anwar: Electric sports cars. That's my point. Electric sports cars will not work.
Mohammad Khan: I disagree. um And i'm only going to speak to the I'm only going to say this um from an anecdotal perspective, right? None of the numbers back me up, right? Like, obviously, you are 100% right um that and the enthusiast market is not interested in ah electric electric.
Mohammad Khan: anything electric enthusiast, right? They want the engine. They want manuals. Manuals are coming back to, it seems, to a certain extent, right?
Anwar: Mm-hmm.
Mohammad Khan: So they want analog, right? But I think... I feel like this definition of how car enthusiasm is perceived is too narrow, right? I find the idea of like an alternative propulsion source really exciting. And the fact that we've tried to do something different, it it is, you know, like it's space age to me. This is like Star Trek.
Mohammad Khan: sports cars. And that that is appealing. And I mean, let's let me think about, let's didn't Kameesa like a rave about the Model 3 and whatever the...
Anwar: It beat the Yeah, that's the big deal.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah. Yeah.
Anwar: yeah he's he He's put his foot in it a few times with the Tesla Cybertruck review. And then, yeah, he did ah he did a tread-to-tread, not a head-to-head.
Anwar: That's copyright. He did a tread-to-tread of the M3 comp. And... ah come
Mohammad Khan: Model 3?
Anwar: and
Mohammad Khan: Oh, yeah.
Anwar: Yeah, and then the Tesla Model 3 performance. And he said that as a single-use vehicle, the Tesla was a far more enjoyable experience. But he said also of about both of them, none of them, neither one would make him wake up in the morning and go for a drive.
Anwar: So maybe they both lost. It's just the Tesla lost less.
Mohammad Khan: the way The way I see that, though, is you like you're me, right? Let's say you're me. You go to the, you're you're going to buy a single use car. I've said it, you know, we've argued about this a few different times.
Mohammad Khan: I don't think a second car or like a toy or something is for me. I think that I need i need to have like one thing that kind of, it does my daily stuff, but it's fun enough to drive the way I think a Mazda six is, or like most people would go towards a three series or a Julia, something like that, right?
Mohammad Khan: Where you've got a car that's, it's fun to drive, but at ah at the end of the day, it's just like a
Anwar: Julia, one did that. Sorry, I love them, but no one did it.
Mohammad Khan: no one no
Anwar: It's funny you said it as an example, but i don't think anyone actually did that, but anyway.
Mohammad Khan: I really wanted... Also, I realized the the levels on these the ah recording are going to suck for me because my mic was turned way too far down. hum But we'll find out when...
Anwar: No, it looks fine. I can see the little thing underneath here, the little one.
Mohammad Khan: No, it's fine. Turned it up. But like I was looking at yours versus mine.
Anwar: Go.
Mohammad Khan: Anyway, that's a episode one, guys. um the We're beta testing, but the i think the... I think the fact that the Tesla Model 3 performance is as good as it is as an enthusiast vehicle that someone like Camisa vouched for it, saying he would rather... and In the early days of that car, I don't know if it's still the case, that he would rather have one than a 3 Series. I think he said that.
Mohammad Khan: um I think it says a lot about... maybe we're not at the point of getting a pure performance car, a supercar, or hypercar, maybe that echelon of like car. But if we are talking about like a regular, like a GTI or like a ah three series or whatever, I think electric is possible.
Anwar: Just
Mohammad Khan: I think that's the starting point. I think if we get um people daily driving more fun electric cars, I think eventually it'll, it'll, I think it's just a different type of enthusiasm. I don't think it's like,
Mohammad Khan: It's almost like the difference between muscle cars and like the whole Japanese import scene, right? And there was a massive schism. There's a huge cultural divide. There used to be a huge cultural divide between the groups of enthusiasts that liked those different types of cars, right?
Anwar: and And by the way, with Camisa, he dailies an e-golf, and he loves the instant torque, and he looks at it like a GTI, essentially.
Mohammad Khan: I mean, I...
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, Gigi.
Anwar: And what's interesting with the GTI is the engine is just so kind of, let's say, boring that an electric version of it, you're not missing much because you're not getting much from the current engine.
Anwar: you know, ice car. And if the gearbox is kind of a bit flat and not as engaging as it used to be, and especially if it's just flappy paddle now, what are you really missing? If the engine's not that entertaining and the gearbox is not that entertaining, and like an instant electric torque curve might be, to your point, and I'm agreeing with you now, more entertaining than the equivalent ice version, the GTI.
Anwar: So yeah, no.
Mohammad Khan: Electric GT86.
Mohammad Khan: you've You own...
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: I used to own one.
Anwar: I still love rubbing my car out. So yeah, just so everyone, everyone, the only people going listening to this are the five people we probably know. um I still have my 86. It's been 12 years now. That's the, only like, that's my car. I know it like the back of my head. I really love the engine.
Anwar: I love it. um
Mohammad Khan: mine after five and I started hating it at three. But like, the engine is a...
Anwar: I love it. I love the, love revving it out.
Mohammad Khan: I don't...
Anwar: I love manual.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: That's you, sorry, you've, you've stepped in it now. That's a re that's a great counterpoint. Um, that thing revs to seven, two, seven, four. That's high. Um, but so one of my favorite things to do is we've got lots of toll gates here.
Anwar: So, um, in a top, like on the motorway toll gates in Europe, um, you pull up, you grab your ticket, And then the other side of it, you need to get back up back up to like 130 kilometers an hour quick. So what do I do? I keep it in first and just rev the nuts off the thing.
Anwar: ah hard shift it and i'm smiling every time i have the windows down i have a stock exhaust on it now with a sound changer right you know like piping into the car and it's delightful and i don't ever think i will i will be hopefully one day somewhere very senior and i'm going to be owning that little silly car and that's my car and i think And there's there's there's no driver assists apart from what, like, ABS.
Anwar: ah There's some kind of very rudimentary tracking system.
Mohammad Khan: and Like, three different modes attraction control. I remember this. They can be fully deactivated, but they're there.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: So there's, like a launch... There's, like, attraction control. There's a stability control. It has two. And it has a...
Anwar: Yeah. ah Yeah, of course.
Mohammad Khan: So...
Anwar: um That is... That's where i that's where i stopp
Mohammad Khan: I think if you could if you could put a Here's my argument with that car, with what you just said about the GTI, right? I think the... And a lot of people will agree with me, is that the engine of that sucked, right?
Anwar: Good.
Mohammad Khan: I mean, not sucked, but the 86, yeah.
Anwar: The Golf or the 86? I've
Mohammad Khan: The boxer engine was not a very characterful sounding or like... A lot of people modded exhausts on them and stuff like that.
Anwar: modded mine.
Mohammad Khan: What?
Anwar: I've modded my engine engine. My engine is different.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: put my car 100% off other than the wheels, right? So... um
Anwar: ah No, no, no, no. no the So to I want to add to your point.
Mohammad Khan: but
Anwar: it My engine is different.
Mohammad Khan: Okay.
Anwar: I have a better torque curve because I hated my torque curve.
Mohammad Khan: Okay.
Anwar: So to your point, like, I think if I hadn't have changed that, I probably would have really not liked it because there's, yeah, you're absolutely right. the The engine is crap. I've done, I've done something, small bits and pieces to it just to, to kind of make it more enjoyable to drive. So yeah.
Mohammad Khan: I know nothing about the new FR86 or BRC. I just didn't care when they came out I know they look better, but that's ah that's all I care, right? That's all I know about it.
Anwar: I would have one. Oh my God, I want one so bad. It's like Porsche gave up on the 924, the 944, so Toyota made it.
Mohammad Khan: but
Anwar: I've even told that to Porsche. Like I bought a 944 because you don't make it.
Mohammad Khan: Nice. Okay. I never thought about it that way, but that kind of makes sense. um
Anwar: Right. It's a flat four engine. So it's the very, it's a very Porsche style engine. Who else makes a flat part from Subaru, Porsche and, uh, uh, well, that's it. Um, it's a front engine, four cylinder manual rear wheel drive, pure sports car.
Anwar: It's a nine four four.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah. But, okay, so back to my point about electric cars.
Anwar: Yep.
Mohammad Khan: Torque growth, not a great engine. If you could stick... That car was all about how it went around corners, how it made you feel, right? That came out of its lightweight, to the way the steering was dialed in, the fact that it's a rear-wheel drive configuration. Toyota went through it with all those things.
Mohammad Khan: If you could put an electric motor in there somehow without significantly impacting the weight, I don't think the 86...
Anwar: Yep.
Mohammad Khan: I think the 86 would be just as appealing.
Anwar: No. i'd Sorry, not no. That's very rude. I disagree. And I'll tell you one reason.
Mohammad Khan: i mean, why? Okay.
Anwar: um the The ping.
Mohammad Khan: Okay.
Anwar: The ping. I will call it the ping. um When there is no engine note in a car, especially a lightweight car like an 86, it becomes such a tin can. It becomes rattly.
Anwar: So every time I've ever seen these light to waiter lighter lighter weight, which is very important with electric they're so heavy, they always sound like rattly tin cans. And that not in a good way, not a fun way.
Anwar: So I don't know.
Mohammad Khan: um miss there you know those I'm going to say something controversial here.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: don't mind the synthesized noises from electric cars.
Anwar: Yeah, go.
Anwar: I think you need it.
Mohammad Khan: so
Anwar: And by the way, on that car I told you about, that Porsche, they actually had a ah speaker. Originally, they had a speaker in the car to make noises.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: They realized they don't need it because the drivetrain itself was so noisy. It would have was pointless. But everyone has done it. And I think i really think you need something.
Anwar: Ferrari's doing that. They've patented something to kind of tape the noise from the electric motor and try and pipe it in or resonate it.
Mohammad Khan: that The frots and finger... What is
Anwar: Oh, the Fratzog. the That's Dodge, yeah. That's so bad.
Mohammad Khan: that?
Anwar: See, that's, I feel like, a good example of what not to do. That Fratzog exhaust is absolutely horrendous.
Mohammad Khan: What? Fratzonic. That's what it's called. It sounds like a bad frat party, you dude.
Anwar: Fratzonic.
Mohammad Khan: Like, I don't know the Fratzonic. Anyway, we have largely drifted off um and we covered another topic. That's fine. We're not going to go. We're not going to go I'm not going to rail on any else this time.
Mohammad Khan: We'll save that for next time. um I think ah but that's we're still that is an ongoing discussion. You brought up a really interesting question yesterday, I think, or was it the day before?
Mohammad Khan: What is the cheapest supercar you can buy? What is the most used?
Anwar: yeah
Mohammad Khan: What's the most affordable way into the super? Now, my instant reaction to this, because I've thought about it and even considered buying one was the Audi early ah rates right?
Anwar: All right.
Mohammad Khan: The generation Audi R8s.
Anwar: Oh, by the way, let's take a bigger step back.
Mohammad Khan: it
Anwar: And I had this actual conversation after i talked to you with a friend of mine over a beer. and And we were talking about what a supercar is. And I think it might be nice to first do that, right?
Mohammad Khan: Okay. but
Anwar: um So um I think it needs to be mid-engined.
Mohammad Khan: Okay.
Anwar: 100%. I personally don't believe in front-engine supercars. I don't think that exists. I think it's a super GT. I think you can call it something else, but that's where I personally draw the line. So I think it has to be mid-engined. And...
Anwar: and i think it then there needs to be a performance window. So I think if it's mid engine performance window, you, you have a super car.
Anwar: Now that then comes into the context of something being a sports car, a hyper car. This is how I'm placing the definition of super car. There would be a hyper car above it, which used to be super car.
Mohammad Khan: So, yeah.
Anwar: Uh, and then underneath it is a, is a sports car. So now I think we're talking about that middle bracket, right?
Mohammad Khan: But you know what's interesting? I think there's been ah certain amount of like revisionist history done here, right?
Anwar: written
Mohammad Khan: Like I'm going to talk about the Ferrari 355 as a good example of this, right?
Anwar: Of course.
Mohammad Khan: The 355 at the time it launched was not considered a supercar.
Anwar: Yes.
Mohammad Khan: It was considered...
Anwar: It was a super sports car, right?
Mohammad Khan: It was sports car. It was a performance car at best. this A supercar in that era was FJ220, an F50, a McLaren.
Anwar: Yes.
Mohammad Khan: Those were supercars. The term hypercar didn't exist at that point.
Anwar: Yes.
Mohammad Khan: hypercar term didn't roll around until Veyron and Koenigsegg got into a pissing match. You know, like, that didn't happen until much later. I think it was the Veyron that brought the term around. And then that subsequently, I think...
Mohammad Khan: The revision happened where the McLaren F1, XJ220, F40, these are now historic hypercars, and the 355 jumped up a spot because of its successors, right?
Mohammad Khan: The 458 onwards, those were probably called supercars. So now the 355, because it's from the same bloodline, is considered a supercar when back in the day it wasn't.
Anwar: Yeah. XJ220 is a supercar. XJR15 is a hypercar.
Mohammad Khan: What's the...
Anwar: How's that?
Mohammad Khan: Race car with license plate. That is what...
Anwar: Yeah, hypercar. That's a Valkyrie. It's a it's a it's a Valkyrie in from the 90s.
Mohammad Khan: but c aron from the ninety s It's like a a usable, everyday supercar.
Anwar: um
Mohammad Khan: Like, hypercar.
Anwar: XJ220 is a supercar. XJR15 is a hypercar.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah,
Anwar: Fuck it. but Sorry, not swearing.
Mohammad Khan: it's fine, yeah. Like, anyway. The...
Anwar: So cheapest, yeah, I think it's either an R8, I agree with you, or i the curveball I threw out there was, sorry, the R8 or an I8, which is very funny.
Mohammad Khan: Oh, I...
Anwar: they Yeah, they've both got eights in them.
Mohammad Khan: than But if we...
Anwar: and And, yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Sorry.
Anwar: No, no, please.
Mohammad Khan: I plugged this into AI because I had a theory for two more supercars that fit your initial definition, mid-engined and within a certain performance window, okay? I think there are two cars from Lotus that will fit the bill that are cheaper than an I8 or an R8. Okay.
Anwar: Esprit's are cheaper?
Mohammad Khan: The Esprit early models. So the from what I understand, that they you can get them for cheaper than RAV8 at this point. Now, could be wrong. Maybe a SEAL can call us out on that later.
Anwar: Oh, your microphone's being funny, by the way. Sorry, I just heard some scratchy noises. Just so you know, I don't know
Mohammad Khan: ah that would I'm against my laptop probably.
Anwar: Yeah, don't do that. There we go.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: Just so you know.
Mohammad Khan: But yeah, the Esprit V8, because I think other versions of the Esprit had a four-cylinder turbo, right? Which i i'm I don't know.
Anwar: Yes.
Mohammad Khan: Until someone does something really insane with a four-cylinder, I'm not... no I don't know. Like...
Anwar: No, I don't think it's four-cylinder turbo. think it's just a four-cylinder. We can check that now because I don't like to be wrong.
Mohammad Khan: Esprit S4 was a four-cylinder. That was the previous, like... Anyway, the like if you get the later like final run additions like the Sport 350 or whatever, those Esprit's have maintained their value pretty well.
Mohammad Khan: The Esprit V8, I don't think market values have capped. I think you can get an early car um for significantly less than you would be able to get an R8 V8.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: Not significantly less, maybe like $10,000, $20,000 less, which, okay, that's significant um to me. um The other car... and I think it fits your definition, is the or or early Evora V6s.
Mohammad Khan: It's a real stretch to call that one a supercar in my mind, because I don't
Anwar: It's fine. I think you can have subcategories. It's a baby supercar. I feel like baby supercar might be a way of looking at this thing. And I think I could i could see it. I think maybe an Elise might be too far down.
Anwar: That feels like a mid-engine sports car.
Mohammad Khan: They did the Exige with the V6.
Anwar: They only can be V6s.
Mohammad Khan: Oh, right. Did they? I thought the Exige...
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Initially, wasn't the Exige...
Anwar: Oh, no, no, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yes, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Mohammad Khan: It
Anwar: You're absolutely right. The Exige was a hot-up Lotus, and then I think it... Oh, my God, now we're...
Mohammad Khan: was Potted Out... Yeah, with a fixed head and, like, ah so you could fit a roll cage and stuff inside it.
Anwar: Ah, then, yeah, no, I wouldn't say an Exige.
Mohammad Khan: I was just...
Anwar: Absolutely, I wouldn't say an Exige. What's the thing that came before the current Lotus?
Anwar: Ah, they've got so many names. and Before the Emeera.
Mohammad Khan: um
Mohammad Khan: Evora. That's what I was talking about.
Anwar: The Aurora. Okay, okay.
Mohammad Khan: Evora.
Anwar: cause Yes, okay.
Mohammad Khan: I think the Esprit V8 and the ivora um early Evoras are your entry point into having a supercar.
Anwar: Yeah, agreed.
Anwar: But that's but then that's why I'm saying that like there would I wouldn't... This is completely arbitrary. That's the thing I think we need to understand, that like these these definitions don't really exist. In my brain, that's a baby supercar, not a full-blooded supercar, whereas the R8 was a full-blooded supercar.
Mohammad Khan: I don't think... i I was thinking about this. Like, if the NSX and the Esprit and the Ferrari 355 are not supercars, which I don't think they are, for the record. um running from your de Running by your definition, I think the Esprit V8 will qualify. All these cars will qualify.
Mohammad Khan: But if these cars are not supercars, they're super sports cars or performance cars or whatever, and we're really getting into the tread shuffle here. But the nitty-gritty, but like the... um I don't think the R8 V8 is a supercar.
Mohammad Khan: I think it's a super sports car or performance car of that era. I think it
Anwar: From a 90s definition or a now definition? Hmm?
Mohammad Khan: i don't think it was a supercar until it got the V10.
Anwar: Hmm. No, I disagree.
Mohammad Khan: It was consistently an aspect of that era.
Anwar: Like, no, the impact of that car, when, let's remember, right, when the R8 launched, it was the hottest car in the world. That thing changed everything.
Mohammad Khan: So was the Esprit.
Anwar: Hmm?
Mohammad Khan: ah The Esprit had the classic cheese wedge shape.
Anwar: Hmm?
Mohammad Khan: um You know, like the Esprit was hot. It was a Bond car, man.
Anwar: No, no, again, I think the Esprit I am giving you as a supercar.
Mohammad Khan: Okay.
Anwar: I'm giving you Esprit. I will give you Esprit, especially V8. um Oh, another category i think is that it should...
Mohammad Khan: Yeah. It was just a consideration.
Anwar: Hmm?
Mohammad Khan: Ivor, I'm really sketchy on. I don't buy it myself, but there's a...
Anwar: Yeah, but but that's fine.
Mohammad Khan: there's a
Anwar: I think that that's that like, again, because there's the, like in nature, um categories aren't, but you know, walled environments. They are fluid. I think it's the, I think it's the middle points between them. I would i would i would say an Evo is a baby supercar.
Anwar: um But the i8, the i8, I think is a very funny example of a thing that is a supercar, even though it has a three-cylinder in
Mohammad Khan: it
Mohammad Khan: I feel like there was a point where a lot of like car influencers that wanted to the, and you know, the type that just flex online, not the type that have actual cool cars or do journalism or whatever, went out and bought I-8s because of the impact, like that visual impact, right?
Mohammad Khan: The I-8 looks like a supercar when it rolls up.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: It is to this date, it is dramatic. That is a cool car.
Anwar: And Andrew Frankel, ah the godfather of Mojang journalism, my brain at least, he's the car he said the long-termer that he owned, that he'd love to have kept, would it would have been an i8.
Mohammad Khan: Oh, interesting. Did not know that.
Anwar: Yeah, ah exactly.
Mohammad Khan: But
Anwar: you know but Mr. Old School, you know, Green Book, um he said, no, the I-8. Everyone
Mohammad Khan: I think at the time the i8 came out, Chris Harris was at Drive when we were both doing work for Drive as well, the Drive Channel, which ah ah eventually became a drive, right?
Anwar: did.
Mohammad Khan: But like after timing, acquired it. But I think Chris Harris reviewed the i8 very favorably. He really liked that car.
Anwar: Everyone did.
Mohammad Khan: um
Anwar: everyone did
Mohammad Khan: Yeah. I just don't think the world right.
Anwar: It's just the market didn't, no, because they saw Mini Engine.
Mohammad Khan: i think i think I think if you if you launched it today, it would be different.
Mohammad Khan: But people say that a lot about BMW's iRange, don't they? The initial iRange. If you launched it today, it'd be different.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Those cars did not do well. The i3,
Anwar: And they were right. I think the market has spoken. And i was having conversation with somebody I know from Mercedes just now. And I'll tell you an anecdote. They were laughing at BMW last year at their sales expectation numbers. They were like, aha, BMW is never going to hit this thing.
Anwar: They're joking. Mercedes has not hit their sales targets. They've had to revise them down. You know who has? BMW. And they've done that.
Mohammad Khan: but couple Yeah, they're killing it.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Like, we can talk shit about their, like, the aesthetics all day. we can talk, you know, about the weight of the M5, but they are doing really well from what I understand. There's
Anwar: Sales numbers, man. The market speaks. um We've hit an hour, by the way, Mo, so I don't know if you want to like bring this into landing because I don't know if anyone's got patience for an hour of us chatting.
Mohammad Khan: two things. I'm going to close out with this.
Anwar: Okay, yeah.
Mohammad Khan: The... um I did a comparative price analysis um using my favorite AI tool, which is Gemini, not a paid placement.
Anwar: but I want to put this on record. I hate AI and I honestly try and refuse to use it. um We can have that conversation later.
Mohammad Khan: We're like used car classified and just trying to run it, man. But I will defend AI to the end of time because I get to do it a lot.
Anwar: yes It's fine.
Mohammad Khan: But I do feel like it's getting overused, but that's not even a topic for this podcast. We're going to need a separate one.
Anwar: No, it's not.
Mohammad Khan: But
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: ah but What it pulled up was the typical used price range for some of the cars we were looking at, right? So the I8 runs between $70,000 to $950,000, sorry, and were valued more.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: Similar range for the R8 between $70,000 and $90,000.
Anwar: you
Mohammad Khan: That sounds completely off to me, maybe the prices have don't think um similar range for the r eight v eight between seventy thousand and ninety thousand that sounds completely off to me but maybe the prices have gone up um
Anwar: US. In the UK, they're like half.
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, I remember even in the UAE, you could get an early Tiptronic car for like $25,000 to $30,000. So like between $100,000, $100,000, $150,000, you could get an R8 V8. So I don't know about that. The R8 V8 might still be the one. I think it's still the it might still be the winner.
Mohammad Khan: But it says an Esprit V8 would start between $50,000 to $80,000, which sounds about right to me, actually. um which sounds about right to me actually um Those cars used to be cheaper, but then i think more people wanted supercars. those That era supercar. i think I would say the only super sports car or sports car from that era that I haven't seen appreciate greatly, and probably because it's actually not that good, is the Mitsubishi 3000 GT.
Anwar: That's not a Supergirl. ah
Mohammad Khan: No, it was a sports car. It was it was it was meant to be their rival.
Anwar: and so
Mohammad Khan: With the twin turbo, it was meant to be their rival to the RX-11 NSX 300ZX. That's what it was.
Anwar: Yeah.
Mohammad Khan: That was Mitsubishi's version.
Anwar: Are they all coupés? That's a coupé. Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: think, okay, so the way I would see it classified in, like, what car when they did their, like, car of the year or whatever, coupe would be something a bit lower, right? Like, you would see, like, Silvia's and Preludes and stuff like that and
Anwar: Oh, yeah, sorry, this was a 100%. Actually, I completely agree with you.
Mohammad Khan: This would a super sports car, a performance car. Performance car is the truck used that in era, if I'm correct.
Anwar: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry.
Mohammad Khan: But the 3000 GT is just not a good car from what I know.
Anwar: Hmm.
Mohammad Khan: it's too I've driven one. It's a bit loose. I like it, but it's a bit loose. Yeah, it's the gear shift, the steering. it's The feeling feels not great. But I think we can agree that it's either the R8 V8 or Lotus Esprit V8, which your cheapest entry point into a so into a supercar.
Mohammad Khan: Is that correct?
Anwar: I'm surprised by BMW i8 prices. I'm going to go on cars and bids, and I'm going to have a look as well because I feel like...
Mohammad Khan: yeah and did We are not sponsored by Demoro. All
Anwar: No, come on. there's ah that There have been sold BMW i8s for $47,000.
Mohammad Khan: all right, look up. Look up Esprit V8. All
Anwar: Sold for I'm looking at
Anwar: unmodify b and w i eight
Mohammad Khan: all right, look at Esprit V8.
Anwar: adi Let's do Audi R8 and then sort by cheapest. um
Mohammad Khan: Okay.
Anwar: Audi R8, I've seen 50 cheapest, 55. fifty five okay Can I sort? Fix your website, man. Lowest price. Here you go. This is great. The cheapest sold was 55,000. Yeah,
Mohammad Khan: OK, so that's not it. So this is the so far.
Anwar: yeah and then the Lotus Esprit V8, right? So Lotus Esprit.
Mohammad Khan: has to be the I8 in my opinion.
Anwar: Yep, that's fine, that's fine, that's fine. Sort by lowest price. There's a lot of S4s which are not V8s. The cheapest V8 is 52.
Anwar: So it's i think it' a I think you've got a fight on your hands between the... Oh, 47. 36. Wow. Silver man. sold thirty six
Mohammad Khan: Okay, so it is between the I-8.
Anwar: wow
Mohammad Khan: it's between the I-8 and the V-8, Esprit V-8, really.
Anwar: silver v eight man
Mohammad Khan: Yeah.
Anwar: Canada car, clean it says, 16,000 miles. if Someone stole this car.
Mohammad Khan: I don't remember one of the, you know you know, every once in a while you read that piece of like motoring journalism, which you're just like, wow, that is amazing. that I will never forget that. And like the photography is brilliant, the, you know, like the writing is so good. i mean, I wouldn't even be surprised if Frankel wrote this because he is so good. Like I've just been reminded, I subscribed to the Intercooler recently and because of you.
Mohammad Khan: And I have been reminded.
Anwar: Mm-hmm.
Mohammad Khan: Like he is such a good writer. um But the ah there was a comparison test auto car ran decades ago between the Esprit V8, the 993, I want to say turbo, ah NSX and the Ferrari 355.
Anwar: Good car that NSX, good
Mohammad Khan: And forget that. What a comparison test. But yeah, Esprit V8 or I8.
Anwar: car.
Anwar: This PreV8, but I think it, man, this PreV8, if we're putting it in that space, this PreV8 is cheap. That one again, 2022, different time, very different time now.
Anwar: The market's completely different.
Mohammad Khan: have maths I'm not going to lie to you. The Espreviate pricing has got me doing some numbers in my head.
Anwar: Is that the noise it makes when you win Mo? What was that noise? I just heard it. What the hell was that?
Mohammad Khan: want to crack a really lame joke to finish out?
Anwar: Yes.
Mohammad Khan: I don't know. i don't have one. I'm asking you.
Anwar: Oh, I didn't have one either. This was great. Thank you very much, Mo. oh These are sound effects. You got a soundboard. I love it. On that note, whatever that note was, i'm goingnna say it's G minor. That's a joke.
Anwar: um
Mohammad Khan: There you go.
Anwar: Hey, this was really good. for the for For whoever listens to this, I'm sorry, it's been an hour. you' supposed to make in 20 minutes, but it was very good to catch up with you, Mo.
Mohammad Khan: I don't have a time frame. I set aside like two hours for this, but hour seems reasonable.
Anwar: I i think what I'd like to do maybe is bring it into land, but I'm more than happy to hang out and chat with you afterwards as well. But thank you very much, Mo.
Mohammad Khan: well ah Land it. I need an airplane sound effect.
Anwar: There we go. I've landed it. Mo, this was great. GovSpec, one of one, limited edition. Let's see if we do a number two. um
Mohammad Khan: yeah No social media. we have We don't know where we're putting this yet. We will figure it out in the days to come.
Anwar: Yep. This was great.
Mohammad Khan: Hopefully you guys will listen to this. Hopefully we'll put it out. Thanks for listening.
Anwar: Oh, and I think what won't be nice, by the way, is if if we if you completely disagree with anything you have, I would love to leave some space aside to take opinions from the the crowd. So if you have any opinion and you're a friend of ours and you think that we're completely wrong, you disagree with something, let us know.
Anwar: And I'd like to debate that because I think the best way to work out what's right is to work out maybe why you're wrong.
Mohammad Khan: yes
Mohammad Khan: Yeah, send us an angry DM. um You know what? Like, no, I don't want to put that out there. we will We will share. for now For now, send us an angry DM. If not, if you know us, if you don't know us, sorry, sucks.
Mohammad Khan: um we will We will work on an email address and all that fun stuff in the future.
Anwar: put on Dubai Petrolheads put on Dubai Petrolheads Reddit let them go mental over this thing I hope not I hope not
Mohammad Khan: ah Do we know any of those people? Anyway, let's go.
Mohammad Khan: All right, cool. They're too busy complaining about stoplights and roundabouts. Anyway, see ya.
Anwar: thank you very much guys bye bye
Mohammad Khan: Bye.
