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The Middle East Conflict's Impact on Cars, and how much we love the Ferrari Luce #8
29 Plays20 days ago
Anwar and Moe are back after a long break in Episode 8 to discuss the Middle East conflict's impact on auto sales in the region.
Also, have we told you how much we love the Ferrari Luce? We are about to. If you've got feedback, we'd love to hear it.
You can reach us at: Gulf.specgcc@gmail.comFind us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gulf_spec_podcast/
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Transcript
Podcast Hiatus and Listener Interest
00:00:04
Mohammad Khan
And we're back.
00:00:04
Anwar
Oh, okay, we're really starting that way. Oh, my God. Okay.
00:00:06
Mohammad Khan
yeah
00:00:07
Anwar
Go on, Moza.
00:00:08
Mohammad Khan
You said it was cool. But yeah. Um, man.
00:00:14
Anwar
Go on.
00:00:15
Mohammad Khan
So, yeah, we were just talking about this. We have not recorded since December, um, with Helen, a great episode, but you know, um, I think there's a lot we wanted to reflect on personally.
00:00:26
Mohammad Khan
A lot has happened in the world with us.
00:00:29
Anwar
Six minutes.
00:00:30
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. It's been a while. I mean, people are asking me, I did not expect that, but like a couple weeks ago, somebody actually asked me what happened to your podcast. And I was like, i haven't seen a new episode in a while. I'm like, people actually listened to it.
00:00:41
Mohammad Khan
Shit. We better record a new one.
00:00:43
Anwar
ah to be To be fair to you, Mo, I don't think it was any shift in your
Geographical Moves and Personal Impact
00:00:47
Anwar
schedule. it was more me moving. Because even though my background looks the same, I'm now in sunny Salzburg rather than ah dreary Dusseldorf. No, it's this that's bad. I like Dusseldorf.
00:00:58
Anwar
But yeah, so i just just ah just to kind of put a pin in it, I have actually moved continent of con continents countries this time,
Travel and Market Disruptions Due to Conflict
00:01:06
Anwar
but still not back to the East.
00:01:06
Mohammad Khan
Well, I mean, I mean, something we're going to talk about is obviously we talk, we're going to talk about the the conflict, right? Like that has had its taken its toll in in many ways for me, at least here is that, you know, I was stuck outside the country.
00:01:19
Mohammad Khan
i was stuck in an airport for a few days and then I got stuck in a different country for a few weeks before I could finally make my way back. So, yeah.
00:01:28
Anwar
What's funny is it seems to have also impacted the car market. It feels like many fewer people, does that make sense? Many fewer people are actually buying cars. Whereas Mo, I think you've gone on a different trajectory with your car buying habits. You've you've not followed the market. You've gone in, ah since we've recorded, you've exploded your, not just Hot Wheels collection.
00:01:46
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, well, we'll get back to that, right? like But there are there are good
Middle East Car Market Amid Global Trade Tensions
00:01:50
Mohammad Khan
deals to be had. There are distressed sales happening. And I'm not going to say, like, I mean, I bought my car off a friend of ours, actually, one of them.
00:02:02
Mohammad Khan
at least and the it you know i was just trying to help out and i'm i'm not even necessarily sure um if i want to keep the car at this point but it is it is an interesting car so um despite what feel you've seen will set up say
00:02:13
Anwar
what i mean it's its It is a reflection of, like we said, um the moment that there are that there has been a massive impact on the region. um I'd say introducing instability, um especially in the upper end of the market to the Middle East has been probably the worst thing that could have happened from a global perspective, the biggest car market, luxury car markets have always been America, became China and then growing was the Middle East.
00:02:47
Anwar
So since the trade war kicked off, I think a lot of manufacturers have said, and I've heard it from, from their own mouths that they're trying to, ah trying to plug the hole in demand by looking towards the Middle East. And that was just before the conflict had started. So it's kind of, uh,
Chinese Automakers' Global Expansion
00:03:04
Anwar
i don't know about irony, but it is a thing.
00:03:04
Mohammad Khan
well like
00:03:06
Anwar
Go on.
00:03:07
Mohammad Khan
yeah well it goes It's not just the upper end of the market, right? In China, you have an oversupply problem. They are building more cars domestically than they have demand for. So yes, while a lot of, I guess, Chinese manual... Sorry, I'm muted for a second. i don't know why i did that. um But while a lot of, I guess, while a lot of customers have moved... um increasingly to domestically made cars because they've gotten so much better than everyone else's to a certain extent. um
00:03:40
Mohammad Khan
There's also the fact that they're making too many of their own cars. I think the fact that they've been completely or almost completely locked out of the US and there are um restrictions in other markets and stuff make make the Middle East a ah prime ground for market expansion or sales expansion, right?
00:03:58
Anwar
I mean, that that's a good point, because I feel like what's actually happening is the the supply is so high that it's creating pressure.
00:03:58
Mohammad Khan
and
00:04:05
Anwar
And that pressure is now pushing other markets to just accept them. Because as I think we have mentioned, you mentioned it earlier, they are actually appearing in Europe. They are appearing. But I think it's just because there is this like if you as an analogy, almost the the
00:04:14
Mohammad Khan
Thank you.
00:04:20
Anwar
It's like the tap is on full blast, but someone's holding it shut and you can only hold it shut for so long. They are seeping into many different markets through whatever way they can. So in the US, like you said, they are coming through Canada and Mexico.
00:04:33
Anwar
And here they're coming through the UK. They are coming though. Sorry.
00:04:37
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, was it? Jayku? It came with the J7, I think is what it's called. It's the number one selling car in the UK right now, or it was at least very recently. It topped their sales charts.
00:04:50
Mohammad Khan
They've just announced that they're buying excess capacity at Nissan Sunderland plant in the UK. um So they've I think Nissan has, you know, in perennially struggling Nissan, is trying to free up um production capacity in order.
00:05:02
Anwar
Mm-hmm.
00:05:07
Mohammad Khan
They're renting out capacity to make money. Right. And of course, the Chinese snapped it up because that gives them a route into the rest of Europe.
Luxury Brands Adapting to Market Changes
00:05:14
Mohammad Khan
um So there's that.
00:05:15
Anwar
And their po term they've got deals on co-development um of cars as well. There's so many cars coming. there If you've heard of Horse, do you remember the engine? There's an engine manufacturer now with Chinese, with Renault, I believe, that are making engines together.
00:05:30
Anwar
That Jayco is a cherry.
00:05:31
Mohammad Khan
ah certainly me
00:05:32
Anwar
Yes,
00:05:34
Mohammad Khan
It's going into the Amira, isn't it? The horse engine. And that's the controversy.
00:05:36
Anwar
yes. yes
00:05:37
Mohammad Khan
Like they're dropping the Toyota and AMG engines for a horse engine with a four-speed torque converter automatic. It's like the nineteen eighty s
00:05:47
Anwar
i still don't I still don't believe the gearbox thing because if there's one...
00:05:53
Mohammad Khan
What do you mean? you
00:05:56
Anwar
Huh?
00:05:57
Mohammad Khan
They said it. That isn't that an official statement that this is what the the new engine and new gearbox is going to be. That's what Lotus said.
00:06:05
Anwar
We're ping-ponging. I want to add one point to that. um
00:06:07
Mohammad Khan
yeah That's cool.
00:06:08
Anwar
and since you Since we've recorded as well, Ferrari decided to to to kind of... take a massive step forward and actually show the world. going to shut my window. Hold on. because of the Welcome to Europe. at The church bells.
00:06:23
Anwar
Decided to show but show the world that it can move into the future with an electric car. Why it's relevant is because the enthusiast response to it has been, I think, very single-minded in its dissatisfaction with it.
00:06:39
Anwar
I, I, what the reason I'm mentioning that is because the gearbox is so bad for what the car is and that car's audience is purely enthusiasts. I'd say 90% enthusiasts.
00:06:49
Mohammad Khan
you can't say that.
00:06:51
Anwar
Who, which person would like, what's the Venn diagram of, I don't care about this gearbox and I'm an enthusiast who buy a Lotus. and Like there's no, there's no crossover, but, but, but, but but but but I think before we do, Hmm.
00:07:03
Mohammad Khan
I will say that totally i need I would need to see some kind of breakdown or something on this. I don't have numbers, but what I have seen shortly before I i logged off Instagram for a while um is that the Amira, at least in the UAE, did seem to be picking up steam as some sort of influencer's car. You know the way the I8 did?
00:07:23
Mohammad Khan
So because it looks like a supercar...
00:07:25
Anwar
The didn't sell anything.
00:07:25
Mohammad Khan
Huh?
00:07:26
Anwar
The i8 would have loved to become an influencer car.
00:07:30
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:07:30
Anwar
The i8 didn't do well at all. It didn't become anything. It became a flo
00:07:34
Mohammad Khan
Oh, no, secondhand. It was like every car influencer bought one because it was an easy way into a hypercar looking thing without actually
Middle East Demand for Luxury vs. Affordable Cars
00:07:42
Mohammad Khan
paying hypercar money. Right. And that's what the Amira, I think, has become to a certain extent. um I've seen it in the UAE with certain influencers picking up Amiras and they are clearly not interested in cars. They'll like the cars. They'll paint them like, you know, baby pink or whatnot.
00:07:57
Mohammad Khan
And that's, look, I have a supercar.
00:07:58
Anwar
The purple, I've seen it, yeah.
00:08:01
Mohammad Khan
I have a thoroughbred. It's a proper blue-chip supercar manufacturer or a sports car manufacturer. Lotus is just like Ferrari.
00:08:08
Anwar
So, so, so before I think what what what I wanted to add now was that there is a lot to talk about and it's actually going to be quite an exciting episode, I think. Before this, I'd say is a good intro for the the complete topics we want to talk about, but maybe let's focus on one mode.
00:08:19
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:08:22
Anwar
Do you want to take us into one topic and then take us to the topics and then we'll go into one specific go please.
00:08:24
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, so i mean, let's...
00:08:28
Anwar
Yeah.
00:08:29
Mohammad Khan
let's Let's just start with the topic, right? Because we kind of kicked off on it. And then as always, we went off on a tangent. But I think the conflict has created um certain changes or shifts in the market in the Middle East, right?
00:08:42
Anwar
There's been an impact. Yep.
00:08:43
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, number one, we saw that there were a lot of cars that arrived, for example, into certain ports and were not able to get to their final destination, which may have been onward somewhere else, right?
00:08:57
Mohammad Khan
Like I understand a lot of cars come
00:08:59
Anwar
Middle East is hub, you mean, right? Middle East is hub.
00:09:01
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, they'll come to Middle East hubs and then they will go to other parts of Asia, Africa, even parts of Europe or whatever from there. um That wasn't apparently possible anymore at any affordable cost or anything like that. So instead, what happened is they got rerouted to other markets in the Middle East. I think, for example, there was a whole stock of like...
00:09:26
Mohammad Khan
uh chinese pickup trucks i forget the brand that came into the dubai ports and i think they they were looking for looking for perhaps a distributor in dubai in uh sorry in egypt to pick them up to see if they could sell them off in the egypt market instead of having to send them to their intended destination in africa or pakistan or wherever it was um so there's
00:09:48
Anwar
I believe Egypt is in Africa, but yeah.
00:09:51
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, sorry. I meant like, ah I guess, central and south lower.
00:09:55
Anwar
Central Africa, going yeah.
00:09:56
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, not not.
00:09:56
Anwar
I mean, let's be honest, Egypt is a bit different, but yeah.
00:09:57
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, yeah. there' The Middle East Africa split always like kills me like geographically.
00:10:02
Anwar
Yep.
00:10:02
Mohammad Khan
I always make that mistake. My bad. Apologies, Africa.
00:10:06
Anwar
To all the Egyptians, because I think you've got a few in the office, right? Yeah.
00:10:10
Mohammad Khan
Well, yeah. And a lot of friends. So, yeah, so there's that. And the other the other thing with that is, the other thing we've seen is that, now you mentioned this, was at the high end of the market, right?
00:10:23
Mohammad Khan
um Is that I think Lamborghini Winkleman actually, is that how you pronounce his name? Anyway, ah has basically said that there are and I don't know if this has changed since, but there are no Lamborghinis coming into the Middle East right now. Some of these showrooms look barren, by the way. I've driven by Aston Martin Abu Dhabi. I don't think there's a car in there.
00:10:42
Mohammad Khan
um
00:10:43
Anwar
Well, I mean, even if even if you bring cars in, dope are people in the position now to drop this kind of liquidity on a car that you don't need?
00:10:43
Mohammad Khan
Lamborghini. has Hmm.
00:10:53
Anwar
like that That's my point that like, okay, fine, there might be there might be a restriction, not restrictions, there might be difficulties in bringing the car in, but who on earth would actually decide to like lose that much liquidity on a car that you don't need, which all of these cars at that end of the market are cars you don't necessarily need right now, right?
00:11:14
Mohammad Khan
Well, I mean, to that point, I think Ferrari has said something different, right? They're like, we can't get cars over on ships. This market is valuable enough. We're going to airlift them. So Ferraris are coming But perhaps these are orders from like, and and, you know, this speaks to your point about the Middle East becoming an increasingly important market for luxury cars um relative to like, oh, yeah.
00:11:35
Anwar
but we didn't mention recording actually i think that's that's a good point if i could make i'll make it quickly yeah so um just before we spoke as well oh sorry the since we last spoke the big news was obviously the trade war between america and china that four manufacturers in the ah upper end um all the way from like i'd say mercedes audi bmw upwards um The the biggest historical market has always been America.
00:11:58
Anwar
China had picked up in recent years. They then decided that their business model was no longer working since the market changes in China. And they were more often looking towards the Middle East to plug that hole in demand, especially for even higher end of the market, which was almost ironic as when you chase one thing, you go for the other one. And then this conflict kicks off and it affects the entire market. So that's just a quick version of it. But yeah, sorry.
00:12:25
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, so I mean, I think Ferrari's decided to invest in that. And they're like, look, we're going to send, we're going to get cars over there no matter what. Lamborghini's taking the opposite approach. Perhaps that reflects the type of buyer, you know, um that for example, well, I don't know, the ferrari Ferrari buyers may have had these orders backlogged or whatever. And those cars are going to come through regardless.
00:12:48
Mohammad Khan
Are they accepting new orders? We don't know. I'm not a Ferrari buyer yet.
00:12:51
Anwar
It's also demand elasticity. It's like Lamborghini are just not as elastic as Ferrari.
00:12:54
Mohammad Khan
Huh?
00:12:57
Anwar
ah Demand elasticity. A Ferrari clearly is now shown to be more of an elastic purchase. Even whatever happens, the price goes up, market situations, or for conflict.
00:13:11
Anwar
Maybe until they decide to to nuke their own brand with an electric car, but we'll talk about that topic later. But ah yeah, if it does, if it does, we don't know yet.
00:13:17
Mohammad Khan
ah oh
00:13:21
Mohammad Khan
um But yeah.
00:13:23
Anwar
But like, there is now a reality that it could, let's put it that way. But back to the topic. we but I don't want to get sidetracked now.
00:13:29
Mohammad Khan
you on Yeah, I don't think there's a lot left to say on this other than I think this has helped accelerate Chinese dominance of at least the UAE market, if not others.
00:13:30
Anwar
I do want to your opinion though.
00:13:40
Mohammad Khan
You know, I don't have visibility as much. i haven't looked at recent sales figures unlike the last few times, but look.
00:13:45
Anwar
Also, Chinese ships are allowed are being allowed through.
00:13:45
Mohammad Khan
um
00:13:49
Anwar
I don't know the current situation, but if Chinese ships, I believe, are one of the few flagged carriers or whatever, however you put it, that are being allowed through the straits.
00:13:50
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:13:59
Anwar
So it's kind of almost the perfect scenario that... um the the The brand that the country whose ah manufacturers can benefit from the situation the most because of uncertainty for people needing cars and offering a product that is at the right price for those people being the only one that can get through.
Rise of Chinese Hybrids and EVs
00:14:20
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. And, you know, I mean, we've we've just seen a friend of ours. He's trading in his BMW. He needs a larger car expanding family. He's bought the Jettour.
00:14:32
Mohammad Khan
I don't know what it's called. The big one. Yeah,
00:14:36
Anwar
ah Mo, um am I recording, by the way? I'm worried that my sound's not coming through. Can you see my little thingy move?
00:14:41
Mohammad Khan
of course.
00:14:42
Anwar
I can't see mine. Okay, good. I'm glad you can.
00:14:45
Mohammad Khan
and Yeah, it was giving me green check and everything. So let me see.
00:14:48
Anwar
Okay. Sorry for the detail. Yep.
00:14:51
Mohammad Khan
The okay? um He's bought one of those. He's got one of those on order. And I think it shows a few things. One is that like, and that thing is everywhere. The thing launched like five minutes ago, right? It launched in between you visiting here and you seeing like all the T2s in the universe, right?
00:15:08
Mohammad Khan
to now there's a larger um jator the tours basically defenderize their entire lineup right like there's there's the mid-sized defender there's a small defender there's a large defender right and that's what defender wants to do but jator's beating them to the punch um
00:15:22
Anwar
Well, you know how Defender is doing it. The Defender or like JLR is doing it through Cherry, which is a very funny development of being a Chinese brand.
00:15:29
Mohammad Khan
yeah no they're not they're not doing they're not doing it through that that's freelance no no
00:15:30
Anwar
Yeah. So like the to that point that they should.
00:15:35
Anwar
They are. Oh, fine, fine. No, but what I'm saying is that like.
00:15:39
Mohammad Khan
yeah you Remember, JLR is now like some kind of, yeah, house of brands and Freelander and Defender are separate brands as opposed to separate products, which kind of is starting to make sense to me.
00:15:42
Anwar
Yeah. House of Brands.
00:15:52
Mohammad Khan
But um it's still strange considering how we grew up, right? Like it's a new world out there. But yeah. But yeah, i think I think what we're seeing is that, you know, this this Chinese market dominance that we were seeing in the Middle East is just only... And and with that, I mean, you you look at some of the consumer behavior. I was having... um there's like ah ah You remember, we've we've spoken about Kevin Hackett before, ex-automotive journalist based in the UAE. He released recently left the country. And me and him were having a...
00:16:23
Mohammad Khan
a chat about, um, uh, we're just catching up and he's just like, what surprised him the most is the fact that I guess any brand like snobbery there was, has gone out the window with Chinese cars.
00:16:36
Mohammad Khan
Like people.
00:16:37
Anwar
Yeah, but there is a percentage. i like i breathe i've i've I've spoken to this a few AMs about this as well. There is a percentage that like people can be snobby until the car is 30% more expensive.
00:16:49
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:16:50
Anwar
That's what I mean with like elasticity. There is like a snobbery effect on it, but if it's just 30% more expensive and it's not as good...
00:16:52
Mohammad Khan
Right, right.
00:16:59
Mohammad Khan
but they are very good, right? Like I just came i just came from gym.
00:17:01
Anwar
and so Yeah.
00:17:03
Mohammad Khan
My gym is in a mall. They have a Jator display there. The G700 is there. There's a giant sticker on the side that says it has something like 900 horsepower. this is ah i i know it's a massive SUV that honestly, by the way, resembles the H2 or H3 Hummer more than it does the any of the Defenders, in my opinion. I saw one parked next to an H3 Hummer and I'm like, wow, this looks like a large H3 Hummer.
00:17:26
Mohammad Khan
Is that era of SUV design back? um Anyway, yeah, but anyway, it's there and it's got like 900 something horsepower, which our friend who was buying it didn't even know when he test drove it.
00:17:29
Anwar
I guess it's just caricature, right?
00:17:41
Mohammad Khan
He's just like, oh, and, you know, we can talk about horsepower and lightweight and, you know, feel and tread shuffle all we want, like in as automotive enthusiasts. But As an automotive enthusiast, if you're looking for a a daily driver, it's hard to say no to 140,000 dirham car with like, um or is it 180? can't remember. But 180,000 dirham car with nearly 1,000 horsepower. That's insane.
00:18:06
Anwar
And depreciation doesn't matter if you spend 180 on it. If a if if like...
00:18:09
Mohammad Khan
i don't even you agree i don't know if depreciation is even an issue for JIT Tour.
00:18:11
Anwar
m
00:18:15
Anwar
Wow. Because that for me still feels like the other end of the equation.
00:18:17
Mohammad Khan
Like.
00:18:20
Anwar
But right, because it goes...
00:18:21
Mohammad Khan
It's mainstream. They are basically like Toyota. I don't know. i need to I would need to check what they're selling for secondhand, but I'm sure you can find a ready buyer.
00:18:32
Anwar
ah The other thing I keep hearing about these cars is they're also very efficient. And the the thing from this conflict, the other big impact broadly was oil prices.
00:18:42
Anwar
Oil prices is something I'm feeling here at the pump. And I know in America, it's even more so. And in the Far East is even more so. And again, like, sorry, not again, but the Middle East has been a place where fuel prices never really mattered, but people still feel an increase.
00:18:56
Mohammad Khan
you You feel good I mean, like i'll understand right like I went from having a four cylinder Mazda to having the four cylinder Mazda, but also having two V8s in my garage.
00:18:56
Anwar
And yeah exactly.
00:18:58
Anwar
But
00:19:06
Mohammad Khan
And I do not enjoy filling them up. um It's it's the yeah, it's a very different price.
00:19:09
Anwar
Yeah.
00:19:11
Mohammad Khan
I mean, the Mazda is more expensive, but it it sips so efficiently. Right. Like, who cares? But those cars like i need to fill them up regularly if I use them regularly.
00:19:20
Anwar
But these Chinese cars are mostly hybrid or fully electric. And being hybrid and electric, they are very fuel efficient. And I feel like one of the long term, if we want to think long like long term about the effects that this will have, I feel like efficiency and the push into more electric, the Chinese call it NEV, right?
00:19:26
Mohammad Khan
And
00:19:41
Anwar
new New energy vehicles will be the longer term impact. We're going to see a lot more people convert into fully electric vehicles or convert into these more interesting hybrids of like the the the big thing i keep hearing about is not good for us enthusiasts but the uh the engine is generator i believe that the honda has it but a lot of these chinese manufacturers have these uh engines that are not even connected to the front wheels they're just generators but they're really fuel efficient
00:20:09
Mohammad Khan
I mean, well hurry Harry, Harry did an amazing review of the JQ J7, which is the number one selling car in the UK, apparently. And I've seen them growing in popularity here, which like the Jator is another cherry product, right?
00:20:23
Mohammad Khan
It seems like cherry is just going into each market and like and it's just kind of um launching a sub brand that appeals to that market.
00:20:32
Anwar
Thank
00:20:34
Mohammad Khan
and then basically going nuts with it. Right. And then they will just reconfigure the products that they need as they need them. And but I'm also seeing the J. I've seen quite a few of them in the last few days. I feel like that's something that's picking up here, the J seven or whatever it's called, um kind of the midsize, though, the one that's doing well in the UK.
00:20:50
Mohammad Khan
And he talked about it as engine as generator. He couldn't quite understand the tech behind it, but he said it was brilliant. He thought it was fantastic engineering, really liked it. And he's just like, the price point was perfect for that car.
00:21:04
Mohammad Khan
And then I think there was the point where he said it has suspension as in like, that's it.
00:21:09
Mohammad Khan
Don't expect anything more from it. And then your response to that when we were discussing it on the chat a few days ago was the rise of the good enough.
00:21:09
Anwar
Yeah.
00:21:19
Anwar
Yeah.
00:21:19
Mohammad Khan
And I think, you know,
00:21:20
Anwar
And what's funny is that it's if if I could add something to that, I feel like good enough versus brand snobbery.
Overcoming Brand Snobbery with Chinese Cars
00:21:27
Anwar
Because I feel like the disappointment I have in Europe is that this car is also, this idea has been around for a long time.
00:21:32
Anwar
The BMW i3 was an electric car with a petrol engine like generator in it.
00:21:36
Mohammad Khan
It's kind real.
00:21:37
Anwar
It has been around.
00:21:37
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:21:38
Anwar
Yeah. Like this idea has been around for a while, but they decided, no, we're not going to develop any further because we can just rely on brand. And I hate that. And I've had actual... um I'd say arguments, but not heated arguments, but arguments with a lot of colleagues here, especially because we work in brand and marketing, to say, I really hate brand because I feel like it becomes a crux. It becomes allows brands to become lazy. And I feel like so many of them here have decided to not invest in new products and development and stuff like this, for example, new technology. then And rather than that, just decide to you know ride on their brand and they're just running into their own graves.
00:22:18
Anwar
Like doug yeah the the the
00:22:18
Mohammad Khan
and im not
00:22:21
Anwar
the brand snobbery disappeared so quickly.
00:22:25
Mohammad Khan
I think, yeah, I think I'm gonna add a few things to that. So just bear with me here. I think we can close off the, I guess the Middle East topic here on that note. um I think the brand snobbery, the the fact that, you know, these cars are coming in significantly cheaper, the fact that they are available more readily, i think has has just, you know, helped I guess, you know, pour rocket fuel into the their growth here, um which is good. um I think to your point about brand and product in Europe is that I was listening. There's a few there's a couple different sources I listened to, I think, which which summarized this quite nicely is one was the intercooler. Andrew Frankel just said how brilliant the Renault 5 is and how well it's doing. And he's like, you can look to a car like that and be like, if you are genuinely worried for any reason that, oh, like, I mean, not let's forget the worried part. let's Let's talk about the fact that all these, you know, old school manufacturers, the Europeans, the Japanese, the whatever are sitting there going, how are we going to do this? What are we going to do? And I think Renault has very clearly shown, well, we better product.
00:23:36
Mohammad Khan
It's product. um And I think Renault has shown that.
00:23:38
Anwar
Yes.
00:23:40
Mohammad Khan
And I think why I think hopefully i it sounds like Jaguar, interestingly, is going to show that as well. The initial ah drives of that prototype look very, very interesting.
00:23:51
Mohammad Khan
And and we'll get to that when we the loop gate.
00:23:52
Anwar
But at a price.
00:23:54
Mohammad Khan
But but uh-huh.
00:23:54
Anwar
Yeah, but to to to that point I want to add, but like at a price and the Chinese are just delivering as good products at such cheaper prices.
00:24:03
Mohammad Khan
But the Renault 5 is doing it at the right price. And you've got the Twingo.
00:24:05
Anwar
Yeah, but the Jaguar is going to be more than 100,000.
00:24:06
Mohammad Khan
probably going to be with excel Yeah.
00:24:09
Anwar
Yeah, the Jaguar more than 100,000.
00:24:09
Mohammad Khan
um
00:24:10
Anwar
Sorry, I know we're on a closed topic. Yep.
00:24:12
Mohammad Khan
But then and then I think the other thing is there was a piece in The Economist, I think, a month or two months ago or something, which they were talking about Europe kind of their their.
00:24:24
Mohammad Khan
key competitive advantage at this point is is heritage it's old stories and i think i think that's that's their they're capitalizing on the world's demand or the the want for those things right and that's where luxury products come in to a certain extent is that they've got those heritage and those old stories and whatever and you know certain brands continue to do well to do strong um we've seen that um
00:24:48
Anwar
now
00:24:50
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, for now. Or no, there's one that have picked up, right? Like Chanel has capitalized on their, I guess, heritage positioning. And...
00:24:59
Anwar
yeah but sorry but fashion doesn't have a fashion doesn't have any degree of technological development that the car industry does it just doesn't people aren't dying for a new kind of leather there isn't like technology isn't as big of a factor in
00:25:14
Mohammad Khan
There is a quality, longevity, aesthetic point to that, right? And if you and there are plenty of people that are willing, including traditionally luxury but traditional luxury buyers.
00:25:24
Mohammad Khan
This is what um I remember reading in that piece, was that there there is, like you said, there is a percentage. There is a point where the pricing, if the pricing is just right, people are willing to throw away brand.
00:25:36
Mohammad Khan
They're willing to throw away story. And that goes across.
00:25:38
Anwar
or Or get a dupe. Or get the duplicate, which the which the JQ is.
00:25:41
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:25:44
Anwar
It's a dupe. It's basically the rise of the dupe car. They've been doing in handbags.
00:25:49
Mohammad Khan
thank you
00:25:49
Anwar
They've been doing it like, hey, we we've been...
00:25:52
Mohammad Khan
With the JQ?
00:25:53
Anwar
the the Yeah, the um the Harry Metcalf car. That's a dupe Range Rover.
00:25:57
Mohammad Khan
equal is It
00:25:59
Anwar
Yeah, it's basically like, it's a dupe Range Rover.
00:26:05
Mohammad Khan
is and it isn't, but I've seen, I literally just saw one and he says it is and it isn't as well. it's It's a dupe in the way that the, you remember the Ferrari 456, my favorite Ferrari, of course, the um the And there is the second generation Hyundai Coupe or the Tiburon.
00:26:28
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:26:28
Mohammad Khan
that Remember, it went out...
00:26:28
Anwar
It's very different from price point.
00:26:29
Anwar
This is very different.
00:26:31
Mohammad Khan
When that car came out, it was considered a very, very low end dupe of the 456 to the extent that Hyundai in the UK even ran an ad campaign with both cars in the picture saying something along the lines that at night you might confuse the two, in the dark you might confuse the two or something, right? Yeah.
00:26:51
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:26:51
Anwar
All right.
00:26:52
Mohammad Khan
I think the JQ J7 is unique enough. Like you're not, no one's going to think you're driving a Range Rover, but it has a hint of that aesthetic and it looks nice as a result. It's smart. You know, it's, it's he a handsome looking thing, but I think that brings us, you know, talking about luxury and brand and heritage brings us neatly to the Ferrari Luce, which apparently you cannot produce a podcast in June of 2026 without talking about
00:27:21
Anwar
I think because we all want to. That's the really
Ferrari Luce's Market Position and Design
00:27:23
Anwar
funny thing. Yeah,
00:27:23
Mohammad Khan
Oh, man, so bad. so badly I've been waiting for this moment.
00:27:27
Anwar
yeah,
00:27:27
Mohammad Khan
I'm ready. but yeah But why don't you start?
00:27:30
Anwar
I have. Yeah, okay. Actually, i'll so I'll start with one simple point. Okay, so this is a question I've asked actually. Okay, so as you know, I work closely with Portia. I actually saw the guys just a few, like I think a day after the card launch, i was in Stuttgart.
00:27:47
Anwar
And I had one question. And I have one image to show you. So the one question is, um what is the image or signal that this car will give off to other people on the road?
00:28:05
Anwar
Because I think that the most important thing to understand is that, yes, enthusiasts are not the largest proportion of buyers. Absolutely. However, these products, these luxury cars are meant to be bought as status symbols. That's also very true.
00:28:17
Anwar
Okay, fine. That's the argument. And we're not going to talk about the fact it's not got an engine or it's not like a real Ferrari, blah, blah, blah. what is the status symbol that this is giving off to the world and the reason i think that's important is because even if this isn't made for enthusiasts enthusiasts still are a foundational block of the status symbol that this is that you need them as a like in watches for example they don't buy the like watch enthusiasts real watch enthusiasts don't buy in the majority of watches but they do build the reputation
00:28:49
Anwar
that the market is built on. And like, that's my point. What is this? Like, I can't believe that a wealthy person driving around in this car will give off a good positive signal.
00:29:02
Anwar
And number two, this is one of my favorite pictures. This is the Ferrari Luce without any cladding. So this is the actual car itself. Now, if you imagine what a Ferrari looks like and you park all along alongside, and this is the signal you're giving off like, um, uh,
00:29:18
Anwar
sex appeal, danger. This
00:29:24
Anwar
is none of those things.
00:29:26
Mohammad Khan
I mean, it looks better it.
00:29:26
Anwar
This is the Ferrari Luce. That's the Ferrari Luce.
00:29:29
Mohammad Khan
I could get a bag in those wheels, but that's a different point. Anyway. Yeah.
00:29:33
Anwar
Yeah, fine. I actually, I like those wheels too, but this,
00:29:36
Mohammad Khan
I hate those wheels, but anyway.
00:29:38
Anwar
this is not something that I feel like is lust worthy. both for the bri the buyer and the eyes which you want to get with this car.
00:29:51
Anwar
So I think it's going to be a disaster. um But again, it comes back to this idea of what do they want to do with it. Do they want to prove that they can make something? Yeah, sure. But they haven't even made anything that good, to be honest. Technologically speaking, I don't think it's that it doesn't push. You've got Teslas that have been around for 10 years that have got the same amount of power.
00:30:12
Anwar
A Ferrari was always meant to be the fastest car since Luca di Montezemolo. He always said every single time we launch a Ferrari, it must be the fastest. Fine, it's not there anymore, but this is not the fastest. um Okay, maybe it's going to drive really well, but Is anyone who wants to, is any driving enthusiast actually going to buy this car? I just think it's a confused mess of a business plan that was made seven years ago when the world was expected to be very different.
00:30:36
Anwar
But I've talked a lot now. um What are your thoughts?
00:30:42
Mohammad Khan
Well, um that went very differently than what I was expecting, because I think there was a brief moment where you actually told me you liked it. um ah No, I mean, it's fair.
00:30:50
Anwar
I don't hate it. It's just... I just don't think it's good product.
00:30:55
Mohammad Khan
I'm not liking because I disagree. Yeah. So I i think there's a there's a few things to unpack here, right? I think number one, there is, remember, you know, you always learn that thing like marketing school about like the early adopters and the, I guess the people that think later and then, yeah, and then it's the mainstream or whatever, right?
00:31:11
Anwar
Yeah, yeah, the curve. Yeah.
00:31:15
Anwar
Yeah, yeah,
00:31:15
Mohammad Khan
I think what you're saying with the enthusiast part of this is that this car has no clout with what would have been an early adopter. Nobody is going to, like, I cannot see...
00:31:25
Anwar
No. but notes No, no, I disagree because I think that, sorry, I know that I've been talking, but I want to add something to your point. I mentioned this on Instagram and I really believe this is true. I believe this is the Peter Thiel supercar, right? this is the This is the tech billionaire overlord. It's the Elon Musk supercar. It's all of those Silicon Valley people who are not car enthusiasts, but want to what like so like signal to the world that they've just sold the 10% of whatever company they were working and have made an incredible amount of money, but don't like cars. This is the car for them.
00:31:56
Mohammad Khan
Counterpoint to that, right? um The only, to my understanding, the only successful luxury EV or ultra luxury EV has been to date the Spectre.
00:32:08
Anwar
Yes, because it's a very good Rolls Royce.
00:32:09
Mohammad Khan
And that... It is beautiful and EV actually fits perfectly into Rolls-Royce's brand identity.
00:32:16
Anwar
Yeah.
00:32:18
Mohammad Khan
Silent, powerful, whatever. it It fits the brand. So it was easy to not just sell it to these like tech bros or whatever or new audiences. It was also easy to sell it to existing audiences.
00:32:30
Mohammad Khan
And I think this is my problem is that existing audiences or the hardcore or the are the early adopters usually, and they are the ones that drive preference for this type of vehicle, right?
00:32:40
Mohammad Khan
If they think it's a shit show, it's going to get laughed at everywhere it goes.
00:32:44
Anwar
Yes.
00:32:44
Mohammad Khan
And even your Peter Thiel's, remember, when Elon said, Elon did not invent the EV with Tesla, right? What he said is we made the EV cool.
00:32:54
Mohammad Khan
That's why model the Model S had played mode. That's why the Model X had the gull wing or whatever they called them, doors.
00:33:01
Anwar
Yes.
00:33:01
Mohammad Khan
I can't believe did that hand gesture.
00:33:02
Anwar
This isn't cool.
00:33:03
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. And and you remember that show, what is it, Silicon Valley or whatever it was, where they think that line about millionaire doors or billionaire doors or whatever?
00:33:08
Anwar
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:11
Anwar
iina It's millionaire doors and billionaire doors. They don't do this. They don't do this. yeah
00:33:15
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:33:16
Anwar
Yeah.
00:33:16
Mohammad Khan
the This is not it. This is a car that I, quite frankly, as much as I want to love it, you know, because people have likened it to the Multipla, which I actually really like.
00:33:19
Anwar
Yeah.
00:33:27
Mohammad Khan
But it's, this is not, this is a car you're going to get laughed at in. So it it doesn't get the it doesn't even fit the tech bro thing.
00:33:33
Anwar
Yeah.
00:33:36
Mohammad Khan
Tech bros are going to go buy the next cool. Honestly, i see them in the new Jaguar. As much as the audience made fun of the marketing campaign, no one is laughing at the car.
00:33:47
Anwar
Well, I mean, good Peter Thiel is a bad guy. And if it's good to be bad, is maybe is the Jaguars is a perfect car for the villain that he clearly is. Is
00:33:58
Mohammad Khan
Well, remember, i was I've been playing the new James Bond video game, which is excellent, by the way. It's probably the best Bond film that's never existed. um But they had the Type 00 concept, or Type 00, in the game.
00:34:12
Anwar
type one or type...
00:34:14
Mohammad Khan
The the the production car is be called the Type 1, but the concept was called the Type 00, or Type 0. Yeah, yeah.
00:34:19
Anwar
So...
00:34:20
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. So anyway, they had it in the game in the bad guys' lair. It was just a throwaway placement. Like it was literally product placement. But even in like 99% of the bad guys have driven Jaguars. I think there's only – yeah, but they've it almost feels like they're going back to that positioning. But that's a tangent.
00:34:39
Mohammad Khan
i think I think my my problem with the Luce being a success is that even for the target market that everyone thinks it's for – Those people don't want to get laughed at.
00:34:49
Mohammad Khan
They want to be taken seriously.
00:34:50
Anwar
That's it.
00:34:51
Mohammad Khan
That's not cool.
00:34:51
Anwar
But my... Yeah.
00:34:52
Mohammad Khan
It's not cool. And... and people are people are throwing a lot of shade at Johnny Ive and Mark Mewson about being contracted to design this car or whatever, or saying that you know they don't understand understand automotive design and stuff like that.
00:35:06
Mohammad Khan
I mean, I really don't think that's the case. I think this is what actually happened, right? And I think, ah was it Matt Pryor from Autocar did a really nice column on
EVs and Enthusiast Markets
00:35:16
Mohammad Khan
this.
00:35:16
Mohammad Khan
I think both of us have discussed it offline.
00:35:18
Anwar
Yep.
00:35:18
Mohammad Khan
um And it's been, he basically said that when he saw different models of that car, like different like ah style style models stuff like that, have variations of it, there are ones that were genuinely beautiful.
00:35:28
Anwar
Variations, whatever. Yeah.
00:35:33
Mohammad Khan
But unfortunately, what happened is I think the engineering and the hard points for that car were done before it went into styling. That was a salvage job. It went to those designers because, i you know, I don't think Pininfarina, I don't think Ferrari's in-house team had a clue.
00:35:50
Anwar
It had to look like that.
00:35:50
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. had a clue what was going on with that car. it was It had to be a certain shape. And I think they were basically so stuck with applying lipstick on a pig.
00:36:01
Mohammad Khan
And I think so.
00:36:02
Anwar
Well,
00:36:02
Mohammad Khan
I think it's unfair to kind of throw them under the bus. I think the i think what he also did say yeah.
00:36:07
Anwar
they're massive cartoons, right? they are By the way, interesting thing. They have a massive classic Ferrari collection. So let's not pretend like they don't appreciate what a Ferrari is meant to look like.
00:36:17
Mohammad Khan
Oh, I remember Johnny Ive at some point um ah back when he was like at his ah like Apple Zenith, right? Like when he was just like the coolest person on earth, you know, designing all the cool Apple products and whatnot. People asked him what he drove, what he thought was the coolest looking car. And he's like, I drive the coolest looking car on earth. He said Aston Martin DBS.
00:36:37
Anwar
Nice.
00:36:38
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. I mean, that is that. Remember, that was the car that was constantly cool out top gear, cool wall.
00:36:40
Anwar
you funny Yeah.
00:36:44
Mohammad Khan
That thing had its own fridge.
00:36:47
Anwar
Here's a funny thing.
00:36:47
Mohammad Khan
So,
00:36:49
Anwar
the like life i but look The older I get, the more I realize that life is just pure irony. And I feel like it's a cruel joke that the man who... like the man, Johnny Ives, who was always seen as a product designer, the greatest product designer in modern history, finally gets the chance to design for the greatest car brand in the world.
00:37:09
Anwar
And he has to design this. And he ends up like it's grand irony. you know what mean? Like you work so hard, you prove yourself, you want to move into this thing. And the one that you get, the Ferrari that you get to put your fingerprints on is this one.
00:37:23
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, it's it really sucks. And a few people have said, oh, just wait to see how it performs. I will give it that. I do think, I think the one saving grace for the i think the one saving grace for this car is that when you drive it, it will drive like nothing else we've ever seen before.
00:37:33
Anwar
Who cares?
00:37:42
Mohammad Khan
If it can do that.
00:37:43
Anwar
But then only people, but like to your point, only tread shufflers, as we like to call them, will be the ones who appreciate it. And I really don't think that they're going to say the driving experience will be so much better than the sound that they've lost.
00:37:56
Anwar
So the only person that that aspect will appeal to is the one who will never, ever, ever, ever consider. If you have to go electric, I'm fine. um Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:06
Mohammad Khan
this The sound loss thing actually reminds me of where where I think, because I'm, like, I've said it several times, right? Like, I i am a huge, I like EVs. I like where this is going. um I just feel that very few people have gotten it right.
00:38:19
Mohammad Khan
And it's a shame that Ferrari didn't, you know? When I say gotten in it right, I mean gotten it right from an enthusiast perspective, right? um
00:38:26
Anwar
I think they have got it right. I like the idea of the guitar amplifier, right? That's what they've said. They said like, it's like an electric guitar.
00:38:31
Mohammad Khan
That's not what
00:38:32
Anwar
Okay, sorry, yeah
00:38:33
Mohammad Khan
what Yeah, let me. So the thing is, we talked about the Alpine a was in the A110. I forget the numbers now.
00:38:39
Anwar
yeah.
00:38:41
Mohammad Khan
The mid-engined car, the mid-engined sports car that everyone gave a five-star rating to despite not having a manual just because it drives so fucking well, right?
00:38:43
Anwar
Yep.
00:38:49
Anwar
Yes.
00:38:50
Mohammad Khan
Well, the the thing about that thing is the thing about that thing, very articulate. um But the thing about that car is it doesn't sound good, does it?
00:38:59
Anwar
No.
00:38:59
Mohammad Khan
It's on inspiring engine notes.
00:39:00
Anwar
no
00:39:01
Mohammad Khan
Same with the Toyota GT86 or GR86 or whatever. And I think there is a so a place for a lightweight, well-engineered, fun-to-drive enthusiast EV. And it feels like the only person that's trying to build that is that company out in China. It's called the SC-01.
00:39:20
Mohammad Khan
ah zero one
00:39:20
Anwar
And longbow in the UK. To be fair to the UK, the longbow.
00:39:23
Mohammad Khan
Oh, right. mom Nobody's driven the longbow, right? Like people have driven and ordered the Chinese car, which is now, by the way, Xiaomi
Nio ET5 Review
00:39:33
Mohammad Khan
is now backing.
00:39:33
Mohammad Khan
So it's only getting better.
00:39:34
Anwar
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard. But to your point, Mo, to performance EVs, right? um I'm very lucky to have a little bit of a simulator rig here. um And in it, there's been a lot of new games or whatever you want to call them, platforms, that have introduced electric cars.
00:39:47
Mohammad Khan
Okay.
00:39:49
Anwar
Every single time I've driven an a electric car in that, especially with the sensation um being removed, you don't move around, I feel sick. i miss I feel sick. I feel sick, like motion sickness when I'm when i'm understanding I'm moving and I'm being simulated in movie with no sound at all. I get very, ooh.
00:40:12
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. I mean, okay, like I will, there's a point I want to make up because I've actually test driven a very good Chinese EV and I want to talk about that. um We can get into that. It's a nice jumping off point.
00:40:22
Anwar
we wrap up the Luce there?
00:40:22
Mohammad Khan
oh yeah But i on the Luce, I think this is what it needed to be was something as beautiful as something like a Ferrari 550 Maranello.
00:40:23
Anwar
Yeah.
00:40:32
Mohammad Khan
It needed to be a lightweight, highly engaging car.
00:40:35
Anwar
Why couldn't it have been beautiful? Like, lose a bit of range and make it beautiful. Make it lust-worthy.
00:40:41
Mohammad Khan
It have great range. That's the thing, right? Like it's not... either Either or, right?
00:40:45
Anwar
No.
00:40:46
Mohammad Khan
it's I think it should have been either or either It should have been absolutely stunning and like shown the world the future for the performance sports car like only Ferrari could have done.
00:40:57
Mohammad Khan
The EV performance sports car that only Ferrari could have done. Because I think most mainstream car manufacturers have missed on this. They have not nailed down the... I think that Chinese company and maybe Longbow are goingnna be are the only people that seem to be driving in the right direction with this.
00:41:11
Mohammad Khan
The Lutus EVA knows...
00:41:12
Anwar
Oh, BMW is talking about interesting stuff, to be fair to BMW.
00:41:15
Mohammad Khan
BMW is doing well with EVs. I think they're, they have provided with that new IX3 or whatever, they've provided a credible response from Europe to the, to the Chinese, not just in terms of range and stuff with actual technology and actual engineering, it's BMW doing what they do best. I think, you know, hats off to whoever whoever's running BMW's electric program. um But yeah,
00:41:39
Mohammad Khan
But yeah, I think that's the issue with the Luce. I think it needed to either be that or it needed to provide technology and performance, even if it looked the way it did, does. um it It needed to provide technology, performance, a driving experience that only Ferrari could have done.
00:41:54
Mohammad Khan
The technology and performance does not seem to be there. The driving experience, we'll see.
00:42:00
Anwar
I have not seen the light or the Luce, but I think the great leap forward, the great leap forward have come from the Chinese supercars that are able to jump.
00:42:04
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:42:11
Anwar
Like, it's actually funny that like the Chinese have built the electric Ferrari that leaps forward and does fun things.
00:42:16
Mohammad Khan
Well,
00:42:19
Anwar
And Luce means light in Italian, but it doesn't mean light as in weight. It means light as in illumination. And I just feel like it's a dark spot in their history. I feel like they're lost and they made the wrong decision.
00:42:31
Mohammad Khan
the and that, I think, brings me. Do you want to add anything clear anything else about the Luce, or I can move on to the easy-driven experience?
00:42:39
Anwar
Let's move on. I don't think we need to talk about that thing anymore. No one else will.
00:42:45
Mohammad Khan
um And so I think
00:42:45
Anwar
Oh, no, sorry. Last thing, actually. Well, wait, you actually, do like, yeah, last thing. um I asked my colleagues in the office as well who work on the global brand, um what they feel. And one of the main interesting point, they said there's so much money at the moment that if you're a wealthy person and this, the like the price, which is incredibly high, doesn't really matter to you because you're like Elon Musk who's going to be the world's first trillionaire.
00:43:08
Anwar
That's a thing to consider. um You just go, yeah, why not? I'll give it a go. I don't know if that's in a market, but that is but not enough of a market. But I could see a lot of people just saying, yeah, buy it, whatever. Let's let's just give it a go.
00:43:23
Mohammad Khan
Musk, for all his faults, would never have let the Luce happen. This is a guy that owned a McLaren F1. This is a guy that said EVs need to be cool with his entire range. He literally called the range sexy.
00:43:36
Mohammad Khan
You know, like, he he knows something about showmanship, even if it's
00:43:42
Anwar
he's the world's greatest showman. It's absolutely. And I feel like that they've really messed up the show.
00:43:47
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, the Luce does not show. But on the topic of EVs that actually drive well, I drove a Neo ET5, which if you read the European reviews for, people are like, wow, okay, this thing actually drives and handles well or whatever.
00:44:06
Mohammad Khan
So that is their EV sports sedan. I think it would be roughly equivalent to you and I went to the Neo house together in Abu Dhabi to
Future of Electric Cars for Enthusiasts
00:44:15
Mohammad Khan
take a look.
00:44:15
Anwar
Yeah.
00:44:16
Mohammad Khan
A few days later, I did a test drive of it. um And it's roughly equivalent to a Tesla Model 3. um Sudan, compact, Very good looking car, minus the LiDAR sensors or whatever, um which always make you look like you're driving a cab, but very, very solidly put together. The interior is actually gorgeous in places, like some of the detailing, like some of the coloring stuff they've used is just very, very impressive, right, overall.
00:44:45
Mohammad Khan
And then so I got behind the wheel of one. And first of all, it is insanely fast, as you would expect. um And what found really interesting is that You know, I think with the with what we're hearing increasingly about the Chinese is they're not able to nail down the final like 5% of the car, right? the The chassis tuning, the damping, the stuff like that. um And the NIO nails it, dude.
00:45:11
Mohammad Khan
it The steering feel, body control, like everything. It feels like somebody that likes driving to dial this car in, you know?
00:45:21
Mohammad Khan
It handles well.
00:45:22
Anwar
Yep.
00:45:23
Mohammad Khan
it's it's Look, I'm not going to say this is a competitor to, like, I don't know, an M3 or anything, because it has that kind of performance. But does it compete with a 3 Series? Absolutely, yes.
00:45:34
Mohammad Khan
You know? And that has been the gold standard for, like, I guess the mainstream... enthusiast driving car for a long time and continues to be, I think. um It's there. It's on that level, in my opinion. And and I think that's that's very interesting. you know i think the i I missed nothing from a petrol car driving that. And i fit in fact, I feel I gained a lot by having an EV just because it was so much faster.
00:46:00
Anwar
Yeah, but I feel like it's a good point of um I wanted to make as well is that can there be a performance, not performance, a enthusiast electric car?
00:46:11
Anwar
You weren't seeking anything from, ah you know, mobility appliance. um You can get stuff that's there and it's nice to have and the tuning and whatnot. But like at the end of the day, it's meant to like a...
00:46:24
Anwar
I was saying earlier, good enough is good enough. And ah like harry Harry said as well, ah it's got suspension, it's fine. you You found something, that extra 10%, which you were looking for as well, but it doesn't really matter because the market's already bought them.
00:46:38
Anwar
um I guess my point, my response to you, Mo, is that this is all well and good, and I completely agree with you. But does that also mean that there is no future for enthusiast cars that are fully electric?
00:46:48
Anwar
I don't think so at the moment.
00:46:51
Mohammad Khan
Wait, doesn't this, I'm sorry, like I'm confused here actually, is doesn't this show that there is a future for an electric enthusiast car?
00:47:00
Anwar
I don't think so. I feel like, yeah, it can entertain somewhat, but I don't think an electric car will ever make you wake up in the morning and want to go for a drive a spirited drive.
Personal Car Stories and Market Shifts
00:47:11
Anwar
I don't know. i don't think so.
00:47:13
Mohammad Khan
Why? Let's unpack that. Actually, I'm very curious as to why why. Because I keep hearing this and I feel like this just feels like a some of the the the loudest voices on social media have said this. So everyone's kind of bought into it, right? Like it feels like one of those things where I don't i don't necessarily agree. I've always held the opinion that I think the The enthusiast electric car, the fully enthusiast electric car perhaps doesn't exist yet, but it can happen.
00:47:39
Mohammad Khan
And that was my point with the Alpine A110, right? Is that it's not the powertrain that's brilliant there. So why just why not just bin it put an EV powertrain in there? What's the difference? As long as it's lightweight, it's responsive, the feel is right, it looks good. I think that's it. That's all you need.
00:47:59
Anwar
I feel like I disagree because a better enthusiast car has already been made. it's the cars that have been made. Would you buy, for example, an electric Boxster if a real Boxster, if a non-electric Boxster already exists, then it's cheaper?
00:48:15
Anwar
Like, is there going to be demand for that kind of car unless it's completely outboard? Will any person...
00:48:21
Mohammad Khan
But that's the technology that's like the technology disruption like line graph, right? Eventually, the electric version is going to be cheaper.
00:48:31
Anwar
that's That's fine. But even if it's not cheaper, right? Even if it's not cheaper, don't, who aren't, I don't think an enthusiast will ever choose an electric car, whatever it is, over a secondhand equivalent of the same product.
00:48:41
Mohammad Khan
I would.
00:48:45
Mohammad Khan
but I would, I would. I was excited.
00:48:46
Anwar
You'd be
00:48:47
Mohammad Khan
I was genuinely excited about the Boxster Cayman going electric. I thought it was very interesting. I wanted to see what Porsche is going to with that. i find it disappointing that it's not happening anymore because I'm i'm in equal parts excited.
00:48:59
Mohammad Khan
i'm I'm a futurist, right? I i enjoy, weve we you know, there's that whole unreleased podcast that we we we once did about the future of automotive and blah, blah, blah.
00:49:02
Anwar
um miss still
00:49:09
Mohammad Khan
I do think I find EV propulsion and technology, right? exciting. I find it interesting. I find it, it's so, I think it's actually a better solution than a series of mini explosions, you know?
00:49:22
Anwar
For an enthusiast or for a mobility?
00:49:22
Mohammad Khan
um
00:49:26
Mohammad Khan
i For me, enthusiast has never been about the powertrain, says the guy with two V8s. But, um, ah but I could live without the noise. It doesn't matter, dude.
00:49:37
Mohammad Khan
Like I think it's, it's actually, comes down to the handling and the feel and the way the cars look and stuff and the way they make you feel. And I get that a lot of people tie that to manual gearboxes and they tie that to, but I mean, Hyundai has already shown us that we can still have the manual gearbox simulated, right?
00:49:54
Mohammad Khan
Well,
00:49:54
Anwar
That's not exactly flying off the shelves. that point, actually,
00:49:57
Mohammad Khan
but it can be done It can be done. i think there's a perception.
00:50:00
Anwar
can be done, yeah, I get it.
00:50:00
Mohammad Khan
i think,
00:50:01
Anwar
But like that to that point, like just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done. And I think that's a very good example of like lots of people ask if it could be done. No one asks if it should be done. um i'd Is any enthusiast ever actually going to select the electric version unless they have to over... like I don't see any electric Hyundai. I've seen one, i5N or whatever, but I see a hell of a lot of i20s and i30Ns, a hell of a lot.
00:50:27
Anwar
And I feel like if I'm in the market buy a car, I'd rather buy one of those than the other one while I still can.
00:50:36
Mohammad Khan
i will I will tell you what, I would absolutely trade in the XKR and the SX for the this Chinese SC01 or the longbow that's coming.
00:50:50
Mohammad Khan
Those are cars that interest.
00:50:51
Anwar
i completely disagree with you. And i know I know I'm not you, but I can... give my opinion, the a way that Jaguar made you feel when you first had it, probably still makes you feel now, the way it looks, what it evokes within you, that is something that this car cannot do.
00:51:15
Anwar
You remember when you drove that car and you saw the people looking at you, back to the Luce thing of like, wow, I'm in something special, something that like the world appreciates. It's not showing off, but like the world appreciates this thing going, look at that and kids seeing it, whatever.
00:51:29
Anwar
It makes you happy. Back to what were saying with the Honda. Yeah, same thing with me.
00:51:31
Mohammad Khan
This is the discussion I'm going to have offline with you because there there's there's something to unpack here and I don't want to like publicly put this out there. but But yeah, look look, I don't disagree with you, but i look, I think it's interesting, and I think that is those are cars that appeal to me.
00:51:49
Mohammad Khan
If somebody can build me the electric Elise, I want it.
00:51:53
Anwar
but would you have it over a normal one?
00:51:56
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, I would. I would. The Elise had a 1.8 liter K-series, Rover K-series engine, the Mark I, which is arguably best one.
00:52:02
Anwar
It revs to 8,000 RPM. And then like, you like, sorry, but I, I, I have a, I have a car that revs 8,000 and it's got a manual gearbox and I can tell you it is, I, since, since, since we've been speaking as well, I managed to get the Honda on the road. It's going to get converted to, to ush to inspect now. Um, and I go, I got to drive ush is greatest driving road.
00:52:24
Anwar
I did, ah I did a drive up and I said to you, it was transcendental. It was like breaking, shifting the the full, I was engaged.
00:52:36
Anwar
because it was lightweight, it was manual, it had fantastic feel in the steering. I was transfixed. That made me want to wake up at 5am and do that drive again.
00:52:48
Mohammad Khan
Well, I mean, I'm going to do that in the coming days, but.
00:52:48
Anwar
ah
00:52:51
Mohammad Khan
I'm
00:52:51
Anwar
Yeah, good, good. um do It's unfortunate you don't have a manual car to do it, but I still think even with the automatic that's in the Jaguar that does all the little J-shifting nonsense,
00:52:53
Mohammad Khan
i
00:53:03
Mohammad Khan
i'm not. yeah um um actually So for the record, I'm not going to use the jack. There's a reason for that. But. um Anyway, yeah, I'm going to take the Audi. But ah I guess that brings us neatly to, you know, i look I think we can, you know, we're coming up on an hour and we still want to talk about our own personal car stuff. We've started getting into it a little bit and I think we should expand on that. But I think we need to come back and have the the debate more fully about the EV thing. I think maybe...
00:53:33
Mohammad Khan
like structure, because I wasn't expecting to get into that with you today. It just came to an interesting point. um let's Let's structure our thoughts around that and have ah have an episode for that.
00:53:40
Anwar
It's definitely and against.
00:53:44
Mohammad Khan
um I think that would be good.
00:53:47
Anwar
Yeah.
00:53:47
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, for and against, because I do believe strongly that I i think we're seeing a shift in technology and technology the way fundamentally we've we've seen automotive for a long time.
00:54:01
Mohammad Khan
And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And I think we can still enjoy the things that we loved. And I think they will cars will continue.
00:54:06
Anwar
Yeah, enjoy the things that we love that still exist. I think while second-hand cars are still on the road.
00:54:10
Mohammad Khan
I'm not going to this everyone going backwards. I think this is two steps back to move one step forward. I think this is a short-term response to a market demand.
00:54:19
Anwar
Johnny Ives is a retro designer now. The iPod is 20 years old. It is retro
Retro Design Influence in Auto Industry
00:54:24
Anwar
design. Johnny Ives has only really designed stuff that is retro. And Ferrari hiring a retro designer, I feel like is very interesting. It also designed a retro interior too.
00:54:35
Anwar
I feel like the problem with that Ferrari is it wasn't futuristic enough. It was far too retro. And all the little touches and stuff. Johnny Ives is a retro designer that's now famous for stuff he designed in the past.
00:54:46
Mohammad Khan
you see every every
00:54:48
Anwar
And he designed an old... Yeah, sorry, go on.
00:54:51
Mohammad Khan
and Everything he designed was based on Ramos' design. The I, I've everything with the iPhone calculator to the iPod sound box or whatever it was, all these different things were based on old designs that were done by for, yeah, for brawn by DHR Rams, who's considered one of the greatest industrial or product designers ever.
00:54:56
Anwar
Sure, which was also a retro.
00:55:06
Anwar
own
00:55:13
Mohammad Khan
Johnny Ive was literally following in his footsteps, you know? So i mean, fair play.
00:55:16
Anwar
Let's find out.
00:55:16
Mohammad Khan
Yeah.
00:55:17
Anwar
Deater Rams is still around, isn't
Hosts' Personal Car Collections
00:55:19
Anwar
he?
00:55:19
Mohammad Khan
yeah
00:55:20
Anwar
What does he think of the Luce?
00:55:23
Mohammad Khan
I don't think, you know what? um I want to read the Julian Thompson piece in the intercooler that Dan Prosser kept talking about because he taught, okay, he had, a apparently there a list of people that have tried designing cars before that were not car designers.
00:55:31
Anwar
I did. It was okay.
00:55:40
Anwar
Well,
00:55:43
Mohammad Khan
Wait, isn't the Ineos Grenadier bringing back my favorite car of all time? I'm by ah like a guy that designed Spots or something.
00:55:56
Anwar
well I mean, they didn't design it. They just took a defender and like, please anonymize this car so we don't get sued.
00:56:04
Mohammad Khan
um and' think You know what? As much as I've hated on that car during this entire podcast, I like it now.
00:56:11
Anwar
Yeah.
00:56:11
Mohammad Khan
I fucking like now. I like it. I don't like the quartermaster. I don't like the pickup because it's useless, but I do like the regular one. Anyway, um our life in cars. It has been a journey.
00:56:23
Mohammad Khan
It has probably been very emotional. I was involved too, so I feel emotional about it as well. Your Honda NSX or Acura NSX, sorry, is on the road.
00:56:34
Anwar
It is on the road now. It is semi on the road. It needs to be, it's on the road in Germany. It needs to be converted to be on the road in Austria as a classic car, which is another issue is going to have to pay for.
00:56:45
Anwar
I think the big news I've not told you yet though, is that the Toyota might have to go.
00:56:49
Mohammad Khan
Wait, why?
00:56:51
Mohammad Khan
Wait, should we have the conversation after the podcast or?
00:56:51
Anwar
Yeah.
00:56:52
Anwar
How's that for you? What?
00:56:56
Anwar
what
00:56:56
Mohammad Khan
you want to talk about it now or after the podcast?
00:56:58
Anwar
Oh, exactly. Like I know it's a bit of an earthquake. So this is a car I've owned for, I think, roughly 13 years. It was the first the the first and now only brand new car I've ever bought. I have every intention of keeping it, but due to regulation changes, I may not be able to keep it. Austria has a specific um emissions tax that even if I have emissions data for it, it's going to cost $2.
00:57:22
Anwar
thousands of euros to lot a lot of money to try and get this car registered on the road here and it just might not be worth it and it really breaks my heart because i really like i drove that car here i've been driving a lot going drive it to le mans next week i'm driving that car to le mans from austria um i don't think there's another car that does everything exactly that i need to it's fast enough it's fun enough it's all these different things but i may have to sell my little toyota and i still haven't I'm in the, you know, the, the, the five stages of whatever you call it. Um,
00:57:57
Anwar
like, it's funny that life gives in life takes away that the moment that Honda got done, like I said, with the grand irony of life, it's the, the Toyota that's been my little friend for so long. It's a part of me might have to go.
00:58:08
Anwar
Um,
00:58:09
Mohammad Khan
Well, maybe that's I mean, well, remember how you got the Teoda in the first place. You drove mine. I had one.
00:58:14
Anwar
yeah. Your fault. Yeah. I drove a Boxster and York car and I said, I liked yours more.
00:58:21
Mohammad Khan
Yeah. Well, that is that is news. I am, we'll have to talk about it.
00:58:25
Anwar
bit of a bombshell right yeah
00:58:27
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, well, I mean, I guess less dramatic on
Driving Experiences and Reflections
00:58:30
Mohammad Khan
my side. You've got the NSX on the road. I guess the 86 is coming off the road. I bought a heavily modified 2000 Jaguar XKR coupe.
00:58:40
Anwar
uh heavily modified it makes it sound like it's uh like a my me kind of car i'd say it's an oem plus it's been fettled and there's bits and pieces if you know but i if any i don't think anyone who
00:58:49
Mohammad Khan
We did the supercharger, the cooler, the the exhaust, the brakes, the suspension.
00:58:56
Anwar
No, no, no, no. I completely agree with you.
00:58:57
Mohammad Khan
the car is not stuck on my car.
00:58:58
Anwar
but if i No, no, that's fine. But I think that the look is stock. It still looks fairly OEM+.
00:59:06
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, okay. Appearance wise, it's very OEM plus, but this is now four liter that's putting out roughly the same numbers as the 4.2 liter that came a couple of years later. It's British racing green correctly.
00:59:20
Mohammad Khan
It's got the oyster colored Paris wheels. If you are a Jaguar enthusiast, you'll know what that means. um And it does not drive like a Grand Tour anymore because of the suspension mods and I am trying desperately to get Swallows Racing to respond to me to see if I can get this manual converted but um that'll cost a lot but um um I want to do it.
00:59:42
Mohammad Khan
And in the meantime
00:59:44
Anwar
conversion of Jaguar because you want, as an enthusiast, you want what?
00:59:51
Anwar
Experience.
00:59:54
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, because I've got the, like, I just, I think that's a car that makes sense as a manual. I think the Jaguar XKR should always have been a manual option.
01:00:01
Anwar
Because it's an enthusiast car.
01:00:03
Mohammad Khan
okay
01:00:03
Anwar
I don't think there... I think very few enthusiast cars are better as um fully automatics, not even like a flappy paddle over. um
01:00:12
Mohammad Khan
It's not a floppy paddle. It's a torque converter.
01:00:14
Anwar
No, I get it. I get it. That's my point.
01:00:15
Mohammad Khan
It's a four-speed Mercedes automatic.
01:00:15
Anwar
I'd say some...
01:00:19
Anwar
No, that's fine. That's fine. I just wanted to add like some specificity. I'm trying to say that I don't believe there is a single enthusiast car that would not be better as a manual or semi-automatic than as an automatic. I think all of them will be better as a manual or semi-automatic.
01:00:35
Mohammad Khan
And then I also picked up a 2016 Audi s six So this is generation,
01:00:45
Mohammad Khan
completely
01:00:45
Anwar
How
Future of the Automotive Industry
01:00:46
Anwar
much poke?
01:00:46
Mohammad Khan
stopped 450 horsepower um it is insane that thing it accelerates like an ev um and it it you ha would have to be insane to get into like um to find the limits of that car on a public road i cannot i cannot i can't understand like the quattro plus the the way the engine is it's just it's it's the breadth of its abilities are insane um You cannot, I have won every traffic like so traffic like light street la race. I have not tried.
01:01:20
Mohammad Khan
I just actually, that's just how fast it is. I can't. Like a quarter throttle will launch you into next week.
01:01:26
Anwar
And that's a now 10 year old car.
01:01:30
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, and it's not even the RS. It's just the S6. I mean, who the fuck bought the RS6?
01:01:36
Anwar
It was even funnier was that like, do we not think cars are a bit too fast now? I know it's, we've been saying it for years, but like,
01:01:40
Mohammad Khan
Yeah, I was actually thinking about that earlier. I was like, you know, this was the peak or or the sub-peak, I guess, of the...
01:01:48
Anwar
ever yeah
01:01:48
Mohammad Khan
of the German like horsepower wars, right? Like BMW and Audi went into the V10s, Mercedes went ballistic with the 6.3 liter AMGs. And then they kind of, this is still V8 twin turbo. This is before they came down to the V6s.
01:02:02
Mohammad Khan
But, you know, there was a point where the Germans decided this is too much. We need to stop and started like rolling things back a little, right? And now you've got EV cars and this Jettour family SUV has got like a thousand horsepower and you're like, well, fuck that.
01:02:19
Mohammad Khan
So yeah, and on that bombshell.
01:02:24
Anwar
And yeah, there's a lot to discuss um on that bombshell. This has been really fun. We should do it more often. Let's try not to do them once every half year, but very much enjoyed catching up. And I i think that if I could add a final note and I'll let you do, I'd invite you obviously, Mo, to do it as well. I'm very excited to see what the future looks like because it's, on it who knows?
01:02:47
Anwar
And to be honest, like apart from my situation with my emissions, and I'm in a bit of a weird situation because of moving countries or whatnot, these enthusiast cars are not disappearing. And I feel like there's two perspectives we have on this podcast. There are two people who have worked in and around the car market for a while, and there are two enthusiasts as well.
01:03:04
Anwar
And I feel like from both perspectives, things have never looked more interesting because the the old cars, the ones we do like, the ones you now own, you've got two of them, aren't going away.
01:03:16
Anwar
They are still on the road and you can still buy them. You did. um And the new cars are moving and finally move. I think the je the the Japanese, the Chinese have probably kicked them in the ass hard enough to make them go in an interesting direction.
01:03:29
Anwar
I'm very interested and excited to see what happens next.
01:03:34
Mohammad Khan
Cool. I guess my closing note is we didn't talk about the Audi Novelari, which I think is hilarious as a concept, but do
01:03:40
Anwar
It's stunning. I'm so, I, I, Huh?
01:03:45
Mohammad Khan
I told you my opinion about this. I love it, but but okay, we're going to close with this.
01:03:47
Anwar
No?
01:03:51
Anwar
Okay.
01:03:51
Mohammad Khan
they The Audi R8 for two generations was a regular production car.
01:03:52
Anwar
One sentence, yeah.
01:03:56
Anwar
Yep.
01:03:57
Mohammad Khan
They decided that, fuck, you know what? We can't make the volumes add up anymore. So let's just turn it into a limited production car. The new Volari is an R8. It is based off the Temerario platform, just like every previous R8.
01:04:13
Anwar
My background at the moment is motorsport. I'm um a bit more heavily involved um involved in motorsport. And one reason I heard about this being created was to allow Audi to go back to GT racing because now the Formula One team is up and running and it's blah, blah, blah. They want to consider the value of going back to GT racing and this would make a fantastic platform for a GT car.
01:04:33
Mohammad Khan
It sounds like a cash grab.
01:04:33
Anwar
So I feel like, oh absolutely.
01:04:35
Mohammad Khan
Somebody's like, hmm.
01:04:36
Anwar
That's fine. But like, listen, every let nothing nothing is ever one thing is many things. And I feel like one of the reasons it probably it has been greenlit is because also you can make money and blah, blah, blah, but it becomes the base of a GT car.
01:04:50
Mohammad Khan
It is, this should have been the third generation R8.
01:04:50
Anwar
I can't wait to see the racing version.
01:04:54
Mohammad Khan
I don't know why they've done this. We're only gonna make 500 of them.
01:04:57
Anwar
It is.
01:04:58
Mohammad Khan
I'm like, dude, you've just built a new R8.
01:05:00
Anwar
It is though.
01:05:01
Mohammad Khan
It's stupid.
01:05:02
Anwar
Yeah.
01:05:03
Mohammad Khan
yeah
01:05:03
Anwar
but But actually, what's interesting is that like these cars are...
01:05:04
Mohammad Khan
The Ineos is now acceptable. I will now only make fun of the Novolari. for It's like Honda exiting F1 and coming back the next year. This is what this feels like to me
01:05:15
Anwar
No, I feel like launching an R8 now... Okay, let's put it this way. No, no, we're holding on to this topic. Do you know what one of the least successful Porsches at the moment is?
01:05:27
Anwar
A base 911.
01:05:27
Mohammad Khan
me.
01:05:29
Anwar
No, a base 911.
01:05:29
Mohammad Khan
Oh, dan that's the one I want.
01:05:30
Anwar
No.
01:05:31
Mohammad Khan
That's the one I would buy.
01:05:31
Anwar
Yeah, well, I mean, good for you, Mo, but there's very few people who want a base 911 because no one ever wants the base. They only want the GT3. And what Audi's basically done now is created a GT3-only model line, right?
01:05:40
Mohammad Khan
Thank you.
01:05:46
Anwar
Because there is no more base. This is now, as a limited edition vehicle, they've they've like sidestepped the problem that no one wants the base model. like No one's goingnna buy a base model R8 anymore.
01:05:57
Anwar
They want the super special one. Fine. We'll only make that one. I think it's interesting.
01:06:01
Mohammad Khan
But isn't this isn't this to your point about enthusiasts being priced out of new vehicles?
01:06:07
Mohammad Khan
All the new enthusiast cars are just too expensive. Like, the casino
01:06:07
Anwar
Yes.
01:06:11
Anwar
But they've done the numbers and probably said there is no more, like people can't afford to have it. So like what I wanted to say was um this is the R8 for 2026. The economic situation allowed the R8 to be a vehicle that competed with the 911 for multiple different reasons. One of the biggest ones I feel like is ego. Let's remember Ferdinand Pieck is not a Porsche, but is a Porsche. And I wanted to give a bit, and like they made an Audi made a car that competed with the 911. Think about that for a second.
01:06:37
Anwar
Within their own stable, a big middle finger.
01:06:39
Mohammad Khan
and it you you it And it beat it in the initial group tests. The first generation, yeah, the V8, like...
01:06:45
Anwar
So like lots of situations that like you had Ferdinand Piek, you had a market that had a space for that car because people could afford to have it. This is the R8 for 2026 in the world we live in now, where there is a K-shaped economy and we can never afford an R8 and we're not going to even give you one.
01:07:00
Anwar
We're not going to make one for you. It's only for the super wealthy.
01:07:06
Mohammad Khan
So this is why I'm looking forward, my closing note, to the Longbow and the Chinese SC01. I know,
01:07:13
Anwar
democratizing sports cars Mo you're a genius I love it thank you that's a very good point yeah
01:07:16
Mohammad Khan
I love it. Yeah, i mean that's why that's why as an enthusiast, those are the two cars I am looking forward. And you know what? The Longbow might not even hit the price point. We do know the Chinese car's $30,000 in its home market. That's really, use use um that works.
01:07:32
Mohammad Khan
And we'll be back next whenever. Let's try to do it next week. um
01:07:38
Anwar
yeah got lot to think about now thank you
01:07:38
Mohammad Khan
For, well, I've got a long weekend, so we can do next weekend.
01:07:43
Anwar
um
01:07:44
Mohammad Khan
We'll have two episodes. to We're debating.
01:07:45
Anwar
I am not available.
01:07:46
Mohammad Khan
will take Our listeners don't need to know this. Thank you for listening to the Gulf Spec podcast. As always, this is Anwar. I'm Mohammed or Mo. You can find us wherever you find us or have been finding us. And if you haven't found us before, you'll never find us now.
01:08:02
Mohammad Khan
So that's probably it because we don't respond to email.
01:08:05
Anwar
Hi, Mo's Office.
01:08:05
Mohammad Khan
No one takes our Instagram. Yeah. This is literally, literally we have 30 fans. We're going to stick to that. Niche market.
01:08:14
Anwar
Thank you.