Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Full Measure podcast. We are here at Grainstock in the Lallamon podcast studio. We're having the best time. It's been a fantastic festival so far. James, are good fun and lots of lots of coverage, that's for sure. We've got we've talked to a lot of people, had some great conversations. It's been wonderful. Yeah, you know we had a lovely sort of welcome event yesterday out at Chris and Sam Greenwood's farm. you know A lot of flies, but also a lot of a lot of good vibes and some tasty beers. And obviously a lovely welcome event last night with few more beers, some wine, some some cocktails. I have to admit, I've been consigned to the ah the podcast studio, very kindly supported by Lallamond for most the day to today. i think this is my eighth or ninth recording, so you'll be seeing them across both the Full Measure and the Crafty Pint platforms, but it's just lovely, like, you know, the networking, everyone we've spoken to, everyone's happy to be here. um It's just a lovely place to come to, and, you know, and the celebrations are really still to come. I've been... very well behaved this year knowing full well that we've still got you know Friday night and ah the consumer festival to come tomorrow. um But yeah, it it it's been great. you know We've had a good diversity of guests on the show. You've been you know cracking some bottles upstairs and sharing some whiskeys with people. And we we've had our first whiskey here today with one of our guests coming up today. And coming up first, we have the man himself, the host of the most, Stu Whitecross, co-founder, co-owner of Voyager Craft Malt, also, I guess, the the visionary behind Grainstock. He came on for a chat about you know what's going on with them, um you know in terms of their relationship with the brewing industry, distilling industry, what what they're after. It's pretty fascinating. You had some pretty ah good, sort of insightful questions to throw to him there. Yeah, I think what what we're finding now, and this is one of the things that I mentioned to Stu, You know, the whiskey and spirit side of things, you lot of the projects that he had been working on years and years ago with distillers are now starting to come to fruition. I've been pouring some of those out at the whiskey bar, ah which are we're halfway through. Sampling them as well? Yes. Actually, no. ob be Mate, I've got lots to do later on. So I'm just taking it easy on the sample front and then then maybe we can have a whiskey later on. But yeah, the feedback and and just, you know, being able to actually speak to distillers, people in the room about... um the different malts that Voyager have worked with, the different producers and farmers that are involved with wheat and with grain stock, with Voyager, obviously. Yeah, yeah it's been fantastic.
Speaker: Coming up after stew, we are very lucky to have Matthew Evans, aka the gourmet farmer, join us. Yeah, absolute treat having him in. He's, you know, had a hand, I guess, in inspiring a lot of people, certainly from my perspective, in the whiskey bar scene and the distilling scene. What he has done down there in Tassie is fantastic. And he's bringing that experience and The presentation to Grainstock that he gave was all about sort of getting distillers, brewers, thinking about the stories that they're telling, trying to make sure that they're, I guess, heroine and that they're aware of what happens in the ground, I guess, the ecological sustainability of farming, how you can sort of tell that story and hopefully encourage more distillers, more brewers and more consumers to think about that provenance and terroir piece in the spirits that they're creating. Okay. he's a great speaker as well. You can tell he's been on TV. He's a character as well. So that's really enjoyable. And then we also have Pete from Drip Rock coming up as well. Peteed Pete as I prefer to call him. think he's now going to be Peteed Pete or Petehead Pete. Something like that. He loves his Peteed malt. He does, yeah. And when they release, which will probably be maybe a few weeks potentially after this episode airs, one to look out for. It's a pretty fun story. Pete gave us a... the background behind his journey and yeah some interesting whiskies to look forward to yeah for base so just north of the blue mountains uh south of the hunter valley so bringing uh your production to another part of australia yeah definitely it's great yeah um so yeah and then after that we'll have a quick chat will our colleague from the crafty pint is chatting to richard chamberlain from lalemond about how the festival's been for him and i guess the chance to say thanks again to lalemond for sponsoring the podcast you know that we've made very very full use of i don't think we could have squeezed in anything more if we tried no no it's uh it's been jam-packed and yeah and thank you thanks to everyone who made their time available to us uh it's been an absolute treat so far so yeah enjoy enjoy the show back after the break with stew cheers
Speaker: This episode recorded at Grainstock 2026 is brought to you by Lallemand, the integrated bio solutions partner for the world's distilled spirits producers. Through research-backed yeast enzymes, process aids and technical expertise, Lallemand work alongside distillery teams to enhance performance, improve efficiency and drive results where it matters most on the production floor.
Speaker: And to our first guest on the show, the host with the most, Stu Whitecross from Voyager and the man behind Grainstock, who also arranged for this lovely signage for us here here at the in the podcast studio. How are you going, Stu? I'm going good. yeah A little little tired. but You don't look it, but maybe you always look tired. ah Possibly. Possibly. possibly no what Yeah, welcome to Whitten, guys. Welcome back. Welcome back. and i love it love coming up here.
Speaker: yeah um So tell us about Grainstock 2026 then, i mean or even your reflections on the first one, because we wouldn't have had you on air since since the first one. Yeah, the the first one was pretty surreal. I guess it was kind of, let's yeah open the doors and and see what happens, and we'll kind of overwhelm. We've got such a great facility here to do something like this, but we couldn't do it without the the support of the entire community, and we we asked... for help and um geez they didn't pay deliver um and after that first event it was kind of like if it was successful maybe we might turn this into you know every every second second year i don't think i've got enough energy in myself to do it every every year and then i'm kind of not sure what happened we kind of blinked and all of a sudden we're we're lined up to do it again and uh such an incredible buzz afterwards yeah we chatted about it fairly soon i'm like well it might be worth doing doing a second year in a row but um but yeah it's the same format though you you know sort of
Speaker: It is same point. and I guess that was kind of part of the reason for doing it again this year. One one was to kind of, if we are going to do it every second year it would make sense to kind of do it this year and have next year off so we're not clashing with the CIBD, the other brewing, distilling, distilling conference that that's out there. um And... ah Yeah, I guess the other part was that there was a lot of work doing last year and and probably some of the negative feedback we got, or really the only negative feedback was that there was too much stuff on. We never recorded anything. yeah And at any one time there was five other things happening. So we kind of thought if we really just ran with a very similar program, people could kind of yeah know Those that missed out could jump on board and we'd get the same presenters back. and um There's been quite a fit fair few changes in terms of presenters and and whatever else, but the model's kind of been very, very similar, which has meant a hell lot less work for me and this year. I've been able to probably enjoy it a little bit more than than I did last year as well. Mate, that would be a huge positive for everyone listening because anyone who knows anything about Stu knows that we don't know how you juggle these 40,000 things you seem to have going in your head at any one time. So that will be a ah net positive for everyone. And talk to us about, i guess, the positives that you see in terms of what producers are getting out of this, anyone who attends, what can they expect when they come along to RainStyle? I generally think, and I said at at Grainstock last year that really what I wanted to organize was was a piss up. like it was it was just It was getting everyone together. That's pretty much what you told me yeah at the bar at Molly Rose when you first told me about it probably 18 months ago. Yeah, because you know like our industry is just so good. It's made up of just legends that when we get together, we just we all get along. we and And you learn so much just from having a beer or whiskey and and talking. So it was more just um bringing people together. And I thought, you kind of can't advertise it like that. So maybe we just try and...
Speaker: Piss up in the arena, every name instead. Maybe we just try and have it as conference around grain. It's the hardest way to ever get your mates to come and join you for a drink. Well, it just was it wasn't very professional. So I thought if we kind of have a conference around around grain and we can have the start of harvest time and get people out of the out of the cities and and and brewers and distillers and have them come out here in the fields and and hang out together. um And with the help of of, you know, Joe Whites and Barrett Burson that jumped on board to sponsor buses out of the capital cities and um it just kind of all unfold from there. But really the motivation was to bring us all together because it is a tough time out there and, you know, to get out of the daily grind and realise that, yep, times are tough where we're all struggling our own businesses, but geez, we work with some good people and and we we get to have have a beer at 10am on a Friday morning and that's work at a great conference. 10 to 10 we were drinking whiskey. And you talk being tough times, how are things going for Voyager? You know you you are supplying mostly businesses that you're looking to sort of you know be but become more efficient, cut costs, whatever. So how's it has it been for you that the last couple of years? Yeah, we look, it's not going to lie, it's but it's been tough, like the amount of um yeah administrations and and
Speaker: um liquidations and those kind of things. That was something we never really thought about in the in the heyday. We were just just making malt get it. like We really struggled to keep up. So were basically make it, get it out, make it, get it out. and then when the first one or two happened, we were like, hang on, we're in in some trouble here if a few more of these happen. and So we've had to kind of work pretty hard over the last, yeah probably the last 18 months to to tighten up a lot lot of that risk that we we kind of held. um But we we also made the the decision probably fortuitously, probably about two two years ago, we've been going for maybe 11, 12, 13 years now, and it's just been this constant growth and expansion. And we kind of got the stage where where does it end? Like, where do we stop growing? Where do we stop? You know, we actually kind of, we, we
Speaker: really love what we've created and kind of getting the stage where we we need to kind of celebrate and get out and be a part of it and and celebrate you know these new releases and beers and whiskies that are coming out with you know smoked native smoke malt that we've done and and so we kind of two years ago just drew a line in the sand and thought you know i think that's that's it for us yeah yeah and well there's other ways we can we can grow in terms of um we're doing some consultancy work in in some other other countries and that as well at the moment but to kind of just not have to worry about putting sales reps on and still like, I still deal directly with all all our customers and I love that. That's what I genuinely love.
Speaker: You can put either Stu at Voyager or sales at Voyager. It is. It's both. You can actually put any, you can put info, you can put... Brad's getting redirected to you as well. Brad's accounts and Brad and everything else is basically, yeah. So yeah, so I guess that was...
Speaker: ah yeah Yeah, a bit of luck, but we'd also seen what was kind of happening in the States and and knew that was probably some tougher times ahead. But um we've always, there's been a lot of opportunities we've we've had to say no to just because of our, you know, limited capacity. And some of those we've been able to pick up now, some export into a couple of places. But, you know, we're where yeahre we're doing okay. You've mentioned the international side of things a couple of times. I know that when I first came here many years ago, i sat up at the whiskey bar, which we're about to sort of ah jump into, um you know, you and me having a beer and talking about this incredible thing ah that you've created here. um
Speaker: i know there's a lot of international interest in in what you're doing because it is so unique. Globally, it's very significant and different. um Can we maybe talk to – because I know some of the people, you know, are listening and are really fascinated by everything you've achieved with Witten, with Voyager. How do we sort of entice them to maybe come here, get more involved and interested in what you're doing? um um i think I think it's starting to happen. like we we're We've got had some international guests that are starting come in, particularly out of the the craft molsters now. and and yeah I guess it's just it's taken a bit of time. One, because it's taken a while for some of these these whiskeys, know whether it's backwards or or the Archie Rose stuff, to kind of get out there. and then then kind of find their place yeah in that international Well, now you've got bloody Chris Hemsworth who's going to be advocating for you internationally now, so that'll be handy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll have to team up for Grainstock. Oh, yeah, have to call him up and see how he's going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did he get one of the Villages or he get the party house? Oh, he might be in the party house. We'll see what happens there. um But, yeah, look, it's certainly starting starting to happen. I guess we we we haven't...
Speaker: ever, know, needed to go and promote ourself. We're really passionate about local grain and I kind of have always said that the expectation should be that in, you know, maybe it's 20 years time that you go to a local distillery or local brewery and then they're using locally grown grain. So I guess it's never really been on our radar to be sending malt across to international markets. We do supply a couple and we've got some really good relationships with some of those that we're dealing direct and we've got really good relationship with those. But I'd love, you know, to supply local distilleries and have them create something that's uniquely Australian and then have that international national market, which is starting to get out there now. And we're certainly, it's starting to happen. We're certainly getting some interest from overseas distilleries, breweries that are wanting to come and visit us here at Witten when they're in Australia. that's great and in terms of like the products that um brewers and distillers that you're working with are after is that changing over time you know is is it yeah are there trends that you're seeing more specialty less specialty like what's what's happening yeah yeah look i think there's there's no shying away from the fact that it is a tough time for brewers and distill at the moment so it's discount mate one of those yeah yeah yeah well think what probably what we're seeing most is is less of the the heirloom those those more expensive kind of kind of malts at the moment Or maybe just using less of them, which again is fully understandable because they're sometimes four times the price of normal malt.
Speaker: But no other other than that, I think we're we're still... um slowing up a little bit as enables to kind of get back into the the lab and you the trial plant and start messing around we've got a a phenomenal a product i'm really excited about a malted rice that's grown locally it's a um a japanese variety of rice it's got a low generalization temp so it means that brewers glu-f freee and distillers yeah and and they can they can add it directly to their that one of the issues with rice is that you've got to essentially cook it to get the know the starch from it to get it to gelatinize and this you don't have to once it's malted you can throw it straight in to the normal mash and and you rice uh when there's water around is grown locally here as well so um with the the rice lagers and and and that kind of trend at the moment we're really positive about or you know really excited i guess about where where that's gonna gonna go and and what that might lead to yeah great
Speaker: The other thing is, you know, you' probably starting to see some of the whiskey projects that you've helped to create and birth coming to fruition now. some of that stuff's now in bottle. That must have been pretty exciting because, you know, so much of it was, it seemed theoretical when i remember first coming here and it just it blew my mind, the the parameters and the possibilities that you can move towards on the whiskey front. But now we're actually seeing some of that in bottle, which we're going to be tasting here at Grainstock today. So that pretty exciting. Yeah, it is. And I guess, you know, it's been the last probably, you know, three, four, maybe, you know, even longer than that, where some of these whiskeys have been released. But what's really cool now is there's multiple distilleries that are releasing them, and you can start to see the same traits in that grain from different... So you know that it's not not a particular distillery um spirit profile. it's Yeah. that it's basically you can tell that it is grain because we're starting to kind of marry up hey that's the same grain we're getting this same kind of character in that that we got from from the backwards w rye that was from the same paddock and those kind of things so that's yeah really exciting now that there's there's multiple distilleries releasing products that have got you that same grain from the same farmer and you can have those side by side it's been really yeah really interesting it's always good to come up here and get so excited by what's happening you know
Speaker: Hanging out with people, seeing people as well, just to hear yeah the and but innovation that's constantly going on. And I guess... People talking to each other, hearing what each other are doing, hopefully you know encouraging people to have more fresh ideas as well. Yeah, again, and that that just goes back to what I was saying. that It was um what people take away from grain stock isn't the presentations that you've seen. There's some great presentations, don't get me wrong, but it's just the networking. It's the opportunity for for brewers and distillers to disconnect from there. And there's not a lot of mobile service out here, so it's not like I've been to to conferences in the city and brewers are dragged away to go and, you know,
Speaker: change a valve or fix a keg or whatever, they've got to disconnect. They're here for three days and they just immerse themselves and some of the discussions that you hear going on are just, you know, and that knowledge sharing and the tips and how we're solving problems is that's where the real, you know, the real um value and of grain stock is. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, thanks so much. I'll let you get away to enjoy the rest of the the event and the festival tomorrow. and We'll take a short break and we'll kind of come back with a fresh guest after the break. So cheers, Stu.
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Speaker: Welcome back, folks. We are incredibly lucky to be joined here by Matthew Evans, gourmet farmer. We've just listened to an incredible talk here at GrainStock ah that you've given. Thank you so much for your time today. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Speaker: And in that talk, I loved seeing you get wound up and sort of right into it. You know, so much of the the gourmet farmer chats were coming back as as I was hearing you talk. And I know Stu Whitecross, who, you know, founder of Voyager um and, you know, I guess the brains and the and the and the beauty behind grain stock here. he yeah He's a huge fan. and His introduction was fantastic. But maybe talk to us about ah your appearance here and what you've got i've got what i guess what you've got to bring to this story here.
Speaker: Yeah, I think, well, became a bit sweary. surprised it was on stage. I was stuck here in the dungeon. Luke came down and he goes, he's just getting warmed up up there. I suddenly realised that, well, I think what was interesting, because i been we were on the bus yesterday coming up and and I'm hanging around with brewers and distillers and and grain growers and and a couple of bakers and it's really different world for me. It's a completely different world. And what was ah i was fascinated by, that the core ingredients that of it all, um you know essentially is grain. And it
Speaker: yeah it comes from a farm, it comes from a farmer, and I have a farming, yeah we were on a farm. So I was surprised that there was not much talk about um with the flavour of the grain or where the grain came from. And and for me, it's like, oh, that wouldn't make any sense with yeah with wine. It doesn't make any sense with ah with food when we cook it. And so it's sort of fascinating in this idea of, oh so where does so where do yeah the the core ingredient is kind of Anonymous. does it So much focus what on the end product as opposed put where yeah oppos where it came from. Yeah, yeah. And so and that's the thing with brewers and distillers do this amazing job with storytelling. like ah Most food people are pretty bad at storytelling in terms of we are where the provenance, we're getting better at you know saying, yeah what the breed of pig is or you know how the the the cabbages were grown or whatever. and um But you know you think of beer and and you know the the stories that people can tell about which hops and you know how they've brewed it and you know the stories behind it and how they got involved or distilleries, you know they yeah the woods they' they're using as ex-bourbon cask, or whatever it might be, where they got the peat from. But they're sort of end of...
Speaker: um end of production stories you know they're they're great but but what was fascinating was there was no sort of of of the early stages um even the malting you know it's not really talked about very much a little bit you know a light or dark malt but that's about it and and I was fascinated in that because I think there's I just see potential yeah definitely one thing that you touched on is um you made some great points about changes and of the research that you've looked at in terms of composition of soil soil health and how that can affect the flavor of the grain if you could maybe talk to us about that I found that absolutely fascinating Yeah, so the most famous study, um or the one I like the most, ah that that really shows it really clearly is where they worked with wheat. And wheat, and you grind up wheat and you you end up with bread. And so the the simplest expression of wheat is going to be in bread. And what they were trying to work out, does does soil life, the biology, the things living in soil, so there's a there's a whole ecosystem in soil that helps to nourish plants, um Does that have an impact on the flavour of wheat? And there can be you know several hundred um different fungi you know species of fungi living in soil. it can be thousands of different species of bacteria living in soil. Do they have an impact? So this researcher took just a single species of of fungus, a single species out of the hundreds, and just dribbled it over some some wheat. She grew some ancient wheat that was known to produce a really good flavour. She took some modern wheat. um and she took some modern wheat and and ah did some ah added the fungi to it. So three different plots.
Speaker: Then you've got these professional tasters. They've done two years professional tasting. They know how to analyse bread you know in in every level. So they're super high. you know They're attuned to what they're smelling and tasting. and the texture. And made made the bread out of these wheats and the one, the ancient wheat made and ah a totally delicious loaf and and the modern wheat made a meh sort of loaf, fine. And the the modern wheat with a single fungal strain added made it a delicious loaf.
Speaker: and and these people And they also used an electronic nose to test this. So this is it's not just some people making it up you know or whatever. it's it's It's all blind tastings anyway. And just by changing so one aspect of soil biology, you can alter the flavor of bread.
Speaker: And and you know obviously, you could just transfer that same theory into yeah the grains that go into soil. Yeah, beer and spirits. Definitely. And we've seen that in Australia. So there's amazing, there's some red winter wheat coming out of WA, that's been turned into whiskey. There's some farmers and distillers working here in New South Wales and Victoria using different grains of all sorts trying really, they'll put it on the bottle where the farm is, where the grains are. We'll see these babies like the Ethiopian black barley. That's yeah, there's another fantastic The most ancient grains that have gone into some beer thing and some spirits products as well. And it's interesting talk about,
Speaker: ah stews and producing a wide range of products here, you know, for for the for the brewing and distilling and to extend the bait this sort of baking industry. But his dream, I think, is to sort of bring back those ancient grains with those incredible flavors. They may not have been the ones that got the greatest efficiency whatever, but also to teach people about soil health. Like you love to take people out to Chris. ah The first time went to Chris's farm was actually with my family outside of outside of work, I was taking my family to work really. But you know, Chris goes around with his big farmers hands and he just sticks his hand in his healthy soil and pulls it up and just you see him come alive talking about how much is in that first sort of foot of soil. But it's, you know, guess it's hard maybe to get that story out more widely. And I guess that's kind of what you're wanting to do, isn't it? Say you're here, you're talking about the product. This stuff is happening. Stu is driving at the small maltings that he's trying to get, you know, help get off the ground in WA or whatever. and then these sort of regenerative organic farmers. But maybe, yeah, how do we get that story out, you know, through the brewers or distillers to the consumers? Yeah, and Chris is really interesting. His property, was great to go there yesterday. I'd heard him talk before, but to actually be on the country and see it and talk about the varieties, because he's growing a low-yielding old variety called Schooner, and he loves Schooner, and it apparently lays pretty flat when you're trying harvest. It's a mongrel of a thing to harvest. Like, no, yeah, yeah. Your balance sheet doesn't show that it's a great variety, but these things put down deeper roots. So in a dry spell, they're accessing more water, they're accessing more minerals. He reckons it's a far better tasting product, probably because it's deeper roots accessing more. But also after your harvest, all those roots die off into the soil. So you create carbon in soil, you store organic matter in soil. Any home gardener, anybody knows that organic matter, the dark stuff, compost essentially is organic matter. The more of that in soil, the better it is and the better it is for the plant. So he's organic and he's going, well, I've just fed my soil. So yes, I've got a lower yield, but I've got a better product. And I think the other thing to think of, you particularly with
Speaker: you the craft end of stuff is that, you know, I was chatting to ah a big brewer and I think they were saying it like eight cents or something of of a schooner is, of beer is, um ah yeah yeah you know, whatever you would call that, up a half pint or whatever in various places or whatever, of beer. um Eight cents goes on the grain.
Speaker: So you could you could lower your yield and have to pay what, 12 cents ah goes to the goes yeah on the grain to the farmer. It's not a big change in the cost of the actual finished product that can end up with a much more delicious product or and or, and this is the usually it's both, um something that's better for the farm. So if you want to keep growing the barley, you've look after the farm. and if you want to grow up really well so you end up with a better tasting product that maybe is looking after the farm better and the actual lack of yield or the you know that some of those things is not a huge cost to the end consumer like it's not actually a it doesn't double the if you double the cost of the grain doesn't call it double the cost of the beer and and do you and do you think um you know if you make that decision to do that how can you that then make that a selling point in a way that sort of means something to consumers because one of the things
Speaker: I've sort of become a bit of an acolyte of Stu's and what they're doing here. like I think it's phenomenal. the The impact he's having you know on the beer and the and the distilling industry and on local farming. And Chris did as well as almost like this the test case, bringing people out going, this can be done. Is that we can like help save the planet you know if you can change enough people regenerative farm, but you need enough people, consumers, to choose an end product with those grains in them. So, you know, so it encourages more farmers to grow that because they know they're going to get a, you know, they're going to get a taste. Ultimately, you need more people to be interested in that story. And, you know, over the years, what what have you found works to sort of get consumers, get people, you know, to spend a bit more to go, I'm going to have this product instead? Yeah, it's ah it's a hard one. I think Stuart, you know, he did a, good job of nailing it yesterday. He he he was a conventional barley grower who went to Chris's joint and he's suddenly like, well hang on, there's frogs and there's bird life. And I think the average person goes, so hang on, if I choose this grain yeah from this farm,
Speaker: that means there's the ecology is in in yeah in good health. so frog And frogs and birds, everyone loves he doesn't like frogs and birds. There's a reason why, yeah all that stuff is super cool. And you go, well, hang on. you so So simply the way you choose what you buy to eat or drink can have an impact on the and the environment where that that product has come from. and And dealing with simple things like that, you know that that people recognize, like frogs birds. I can talk to you about the soil ecosystem, the nematodes, and the...
Speaker: Yeah, the springtails and the mites and the orobats and, you know, poropods. And no one cares. Like, no one, like, seriously, yeah people's eyes glazed. Your eyes glazed over. That's hay fever. Hay fever and whiskey at 10 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um But I think that's it is and that's why I think beer spirit especially has ah such a great opportunity to tell this story, because you know beer is the every man, every woman's drink. you know it is like you know It's the social equaliser or whatever. And I think beer is just a really good platform, a really good you know storytelling um you know journey, whatever you want to call it, to get enough people into it. Like Stoneham would have got their Northern Rivers beer, which is made with almost entirely regenerative grain, I think, and Ryefield hops hops. done't done on a big scale. They're they're using some of Stu's malt in every batch of Pacific Ale and, um the you know, small amount, admittedly. And I just do think it it can be used as a tool, a weapon, whatever you want to call it, to actually get more... just oh All you have to do is not choose that beer and choose this beer. And what what you need to do is, I suppose, in this really tough market is then encourage enough brewers to go, like you say, let's pay an extra few cents on your malt and put it out there and let people know what it's what it's about. And yeah it's maybe...
Speaker: Yeah, and it's a hard one to do because, you know, you really, how do you tap into that? And, you think chocolate did quite a good thing, you know, where they said you had the rainforest alliance or whatever it was. And as soon you go rainforest, oh, yeah, like I want to support rainforest. So if I buy that block of chocolate, so is there a way, and I don't know, don't have the answer to this, but is there a way for them to become a, you know, like organic, but organic doesn't, you know, It's very earnest. so much debate around what the right term is. Well, even regenerative, it becomes debatable. But, you know, is there, you know, frog-friendly barley? Or is there something that, you know, that says very... No frogs were harmed in the making of this beer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What it says really quickly, know, drinking this is doing more good than harm. Yeah, and I guess it's pitching it correctly as well, because some people just hate that and they feel they're being...
Speaker: talked down to whatever when you try try and put that sort of message. yeah it It's all about, you know maybe maybe you don't worry about it and go, as long as we capture the ones that do care, that's a start. you know But um yeah, it's certainly challenging. Yeah, and I think what's what's really interesting is is if you focus on flavor, you can sort of do that by stealth. you know So you you might have you might you might be saying, yeah, well this is, you know and and these would be for for the for your smaller brewers and distillers to to tell this story about if they could find something off a certain grower and and tell that story. and it's about saying, yeah we've got this you know um black rye, whatever it might be, we've got this old variety of red wheat because it tastes better. And the and the ah yeah they don't necessarily need to know that that's yeah better for an ecosystem um because essentially we're all self-interested. you know you know We're all very good in our heads. you know i'm ah I'm an absolute saint. yeah yeah you know i yeah i'm ah i'm a great I'm a great parent, a brilliant driver. a Wonderful array. Terrific terrific love terrific lover. you know That's in my head. But in reality, you know I'm still the person buying the tortured chicken because it's cheaper at Woolworths or whatever. you know So so you know i real you've got to play to people's um yeah what do they really want and are they going to stand there and go, I'll have a beer that tastes terrible that says –
Speaker: um it's it's really good for the world, or gonna have a delicious beer. They're going to choose the delicious one, but if you can do both, which is actually what happens to happen with this stuff, um yeah, then it's possible. so So sell it to them in the way that they're gonna be comfortable with. And I guess maybe it comes back to that thing you were talking about with the you know the bread test.
Speaker: if you can find some way of doing it, yeah just taste these two beers or these two whiskeys side by side. And even if you're not a pro, you do find, I've done you know consumer beer blind tasting in the past, and sometimes, you know, blo you sort of but someone brings mate along that doesn't really like beer, or they'll bring their girlfriends down or whatever, and we'll do a simple sort score sheet at the end of the, you know,
Speaker: to tally things at the end of the end of the event. And almost without fail, you'll find the people who don't drink beer or whatever will score the best beers the highest. yeah Because they just, they're just better. know what I mean? Yeah, it was this great research in the 90s, I think it was, where they would give 100 people orange juice, sorry, give people 100 different orange juices. And they would find all these different orange juices. And most people would rank like the top will always be the same and the bottom would always be the same. and these are completely untrained testers, they're just average people off the street. And I think we sometimes forget how powerful this thing on the front of our face is and know yeah the ability to smell and and tell stuff. Even if you, like I've, and probably like you guys, you know I've sort of honed some skills in tasting over the years, but even untrained, people would still choose what's best what's best and what's worst. And there's a little bit of gray area, but not much. in terms of that. And so it's like we're hardwired and and it makes sense because evolutionarily, you know we we've got this thing on the front of our face. We can smell chemicals at like five parts. Yeah, five parts per million. Yeah, smell danger. We can smell rain. So this idea, you there's this thing called jasmine. It's released by a bacteria in soil and um you can we can smell it at at like something like five parts per per trillion. It's incredibly, um powerful. And it's designed to attract nematodes, these microscopic worms that go and eat the bacteria and they spread the spores of that bacteria through the soil because they're much more mobile than the bacteria. So it's a survival mechanism. But that smell, as we think humans have become hardwired to that smell because it meant we could smell
Speaker: Yeah, that's the smell after rain. It's the smell of health. Yeah, petrichor. Healthy ground. Yeah, healthy ground, but also, oh, where's the it's just rained over there. okay So in dry, arid environments, humans would have gone, oh, hang on, it's rained. We know where to go for the rain sort of thing. So it it gives us pleasure, but it's probably... and So we've got this powerful thing on the front of our nose that that's really... Oh, and in front of our face, our nose, that's really designed for us to...
Speaker: You for survival and all sorts of things, but we can use it for pleasure and to tell the quality in things. And and you don't need to be, you know, ah ah ah a professional whiskey taster to to use it. um You just have to pick pick something up and taste it and see if you like it or not.
Speaker: One of the other things i'd love to go to is, I guess, the Tasmanian experience because we had Jules on here from Whiskey and Almond and he mentioned that, you know, one of his early inspirations to get down to Tassie was religiously watching the gourmet farmer. It it strikes me that you've had a a massive impact, you know, ah to people across, you know, so many different categories and so much of that experience happened in Tasmania right when, I guess, Tasmania was the impetus, sort of the catalytic force that propelled a lot of Australian distilling moving forward. It's been an incredible sort of decade or two down there. Yeah, yeah. The distilling movement had just really was still in its relative into infancy then, and now it's gone yeah it's gone absolutely bunter. Yeah, look, it's sort of interesting. ah yeah um ah It's been really it's sort of humbling to come to these big farms because so yeah know we we put out a show. i didn't want to call it the gourmet farmer. I'm a chef by trade. Anything called gourmet is usually a gourmet deli. It's not a deli you would go to. Yeah. And I'm not a farmer. So i they named it without my approval. yeah And I was a bit like, oh my God. And then, you know, I've been on farms and they go, oh, we used to call you the gourmet wanker. um
Speaker: But what's really interesting is like, because they'd say that, but then it's like we were just people having a go, having a crack and yeah no clue what we were doing. And it has yeah yes it has read resonance on sort of small farmers, on on broadacre farmers. And it's really nice to see um that that idea of having a go and seeing if you can grow something or even just understand how something's produced. And and maybe you fail, you know, like I'm a complete Gumby at lots of things. and But even I have succeeded 95% of the time and I'm hopeless. You know, like it's sort of amazing. And and the people who don't,
Speaker: ah yeah ah yeah if you don't want to fail, well, don't do anything. you know So it's really easy to to sit there and go, oh, well, I can't do this or I can't do that. But yeah yeah I guess if it inspires people to have a go or makes them feel better about the stuff they're already doing or to do a better job in what they're already doing, then it's been, that's it's pretty flattering actually. and In terms of, you know, up here at Grainstop for a couple of days, what's the sort of and the main message you'd love to take attendees, whether brewers or distillers or other farmers take away or even listeners and viewers to the show? Like, you know, what's your sort of key yeah thing in in terms of the context of the brewing distilling world that you'd love to people take away the lesson that they could take from you?
Speaker: i think um I think the biggest one is ah just valuing what you've got and and and maybe um and and adding to it. So yes, there's some great storytelling around that tail end in terms of you know but what hops you use or what wood you're maturing your... you distillate in whatever it might be but there's not a lot of recognition of where the stuff comes from it all comes from farms and telling telling those stories but also trying to encourage the farmers who are doing a better job because a whole bunch of people want to do the right thing who would love to have you know a relationship with a baker or a brewer or a distiller um maybe not direct but through you know through a maltser or whatever um and valuing those relationships because that's that's kind of what sets things apart. you know That's what makes things, can make things better, is is valuing everything from the soil right through to the bottling. You wonder how many people who have you know drank beer or drank you know whiskey or whatever have any idea the connection to land?
Speaker: you know and and you know ah all the way it's just it's ah it comes out of a factory goes in a bottle or a can i drink it i get a bit merry that's it you know i'm not actually thinking you know the real connection to yeah i mean it's all just from farms you know it's hops and yeah hops and barley you know for for beer and you know it can just be barley or rye or whatever for um and and some some timber for for your whiskies you know you everything is just it's like it's such these are such natural products and i think telling you Making that clear, yes, it goes through a factory, you know inverted commas factory, but really what does that factory look like? It's just an old-fashioned fermentation or distilling process that we've done for centuries, um turning something that was good from the farm into something good in the bottle.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. Fantastic. Well, that to me seems like an exquisite place to leave it. ah That has been such an amazing chat, mate. We really appreciate your time. I know everyone here who has got a lot out of you being here, so thank you so much. Pleasure. Thanks having me.
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Speaker: Hello and welcome back to this special grain stock edition of the Full Measure podcast. I'm James, I'm here with Luke. are you enjoying yourself so far? Mate, excited. Everything is fantastic. Excellent. And we're here um now 10.12am, a little bit later than but maybe the first time we did we tried to do this, yeah i with some whiskeys in front of us, courtesy of Peter Drip Rock Distillery. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker: Thanks for having me on. Good morning. Yes, good. Well, as as as I said, it's a good morning now. We have some exceptional whiskey in front of us. And, you know, it's a pleasure to be hearing your story, mate. So thanks for sharing your time with us. um Maybe, yeah, give us give us a bit of a background as to how Drip Rock started, um you know where you've come from and how the journey has evolved.
Speaker: Okay. um Well, it started, me my wife went on a trip to Ireland in Scotland. Yep. Pretty much just to visit Bushmills ye as Irish was a a smooth, easy whiskey to drink. um But since we're there, we had all the other distilleries while we're there and it really...
Speaker: opened our eyes to what scotch whiskey and even other irish whiskeys have to offer and how you don't have to have them with coke to be able to drink them um yeah and that was amazing so then when we were there we're going why can't we do this at home like why he doesn't it doesn't australia have whiskies like this And then we come back and started then playing around to see what we could do yeahp ourselves.
Speaker: Yeah, beautiful. And so I guess you've come up in that time of a lot of experimentation and development in the Australian scene. ah There's a particular style, I thought, well, a couple of different styles that you can maybe talk to us about that you've you've progressed. Once you've sort of had the dream and and, you know, you knew that you wanted to get to it, how what were the steps that you took to, you know create the distillery and start making some booze? Yeah, okay. So when we got back...
Speaker: as my wife's a Boilermaker, we made our first little still, yep, ourselves just to play with for ourselves started aging some product on oak staves, that sort of thing, like very, you're talking very small quantities, yeah a lot of work to make that small quantity. yeah And it just, it wasn't working. Like it wasn't making anything you wanted to drink still.
Speaker: um So then we're thinking, in okay, you really need to get the barrels that the magic is happening. from a full barrel. yep And we're just talking to my brother about it and he straightaway said, can I be involved?
Speaker: And can we make this into something? Like actually yeah make some bigger equipment and make it a sewer. Is he a whiskey drinker as well? No. No, okay. right but He just loved your vision. He loved the alcohol. yeah um So again, yeah, like now he's starting to get more of a taste of drinking whiskey without alcohol.
Speaker: coke or or something yeah yeah and he's been appreciating the flavors more but it's really if it wasn't for him having the energy yeah and the motivation behind it to get it moving like we we wouldn't be still be tinkering would be tinkering still yeah yeah and and playing around yeah sort of thing so that's really been the driving force of of getting us to these products we've got in front of us now. And now Drip Rock's named after a location near where you are. Do you want to tell people exactly where you are in the country? Yeah, okay. So we're at a town called Kola Heights, which is Western Sydney, out in the mountains, in the bush. So there's not much around.
Speaker: um And Drip Rock is actually a ah trail next to our distillery called Drip Rock Trail. ye And growing up, we rode it every weekend on motorbikes, walked it, that sort of thing. And it just seemed a nice fitting name to use for our distillery. Great. Yeah. Now you can hydrate the riders as they go. As as they go. Lubricate um And is is there much of a a sort of scene around there in inter terms of local producers? You know, whether it's whether it's spirits or anything else? No, where we are, it's not. It's a very small place. a few cafes have opened up a bit of away from us. One at the Kola River. and one out in the further in the bush. A lot of motorbike riders ride the party road.
Speaker: So you get a lot of traffic coming through. yeah But in terms of a distillery, Karoo, yeahve heard a career beautiful so they're nearby. But there we've got a local brewery, which is when i say local, it's still a 45 minute drive yeah away. yeah But that's Gypsy Fox Brewing as well with the beer. So beautiful. And then when did you start actually distilling some of the things that we have in front of us here today?
Speaker: So these are nearly four years old. So whatever that 2021 probably would have been the big the big the big start, the big push okay to get some product down. yeah yeah yeah and in And in terms of and how you're producing, you you mentioned your wife's boilermaker. Has there been any so hands-on approach to building the distillery as well?
Speaker: Yeah, so when we looked at getting big equipment, when you see the prices for a big still or a mash tun, it wasn't possible. yeah So we built our own mash tun, which is a nice size. we The stills, we bought the bottoms of the stills.
Speaker: and then we made the tops so the column the condenser yeah yeah we made all that ourselves and how do you research for that you don't know you know how do you know what you're you're after it and you know exactly what it needs to do for what you need that's good question um we had a few ideas from scotland yeah so um lefroy we found interesting because their line arm went up on a weird angle. yeah And they said that brought one of their flavors that have that heavy, dense flavor. And they said that's what created that significant or that flavor for them. yeah And so in our minds, we're going, we can try all these different styles to to see what we like. Let's see what happens if it does a loop the loop. Yeah, which we had so many radios. We just built sort of a traditional column up, yeah bend and condenser.
Speaker: and the product came out tasting really good yeah and so since then we haven't actually played anymore with that yeah i'd still would love to do it but yeah great i was you know it's a hallmark of a lot of australian distilleries a lot of up-and-coming australian stories that they sort of you know find a way to actually well i've i've got the skills i've got the ability i'm just going to do it myself um and then you know suddenly we get whiskies that are you know very unique um and that are you know specific to your ideas and your preferences for for what you're after. And maybe we can go to that now because ah the the whiskey that I've got in my glass is gonna be one of your first releases. Actually, we might start with um this big, beautiful colored thing right here, which is gonna be one of your first releases.
Speaker: Smells absolutely delicious. The color on it are exceptional. Talk to us about this one and when you might be unveiling it to the public. Okay, so this one is the Peated. It started in a French oak barrel. Yep.
Speaker: um And then was finished in an Oloroso Sherry task for about a year. yeah um Yeah, so at car strength, it's ah it's pretty aggressive. yeah but So we put it down about 48.5% and it seemed to open it up the nose a lot more. yeah It's still a bit weak for me personally. um Like I drink it and...
Speaker: there's There's no fight in my mouth. there's yeah I like a bit more viscosity, a bit more mouth coating. For anyone watching or listening, we can confirm it's not a big whiskey. This is a rich, delicious, like big whiskey. this is like If you're accustomed to drinking a you know a Glen Nothing at 40%, then no, this is not that. This is yeah very textural and you know really delicious, mate. So i congrats on that one. Okay, thanks. but the So this one,
Speaker: Like the other one you got is a peated, which is the same batch as in the same grain, still around the same time. Yep. Which was at the time. so this is Gladfields peated malt.
Speaker: And at the time, these are about 50 ppm. Yep. yep in the grain not what there is now yeah um so you could tell difference like the French like really muted to me the smoke in the Pete yeah gotcha and then when you put it in the other also Sherry i noticed even more of that Pete and smoke disappear or get hidden. yeah Whereas you go to the other one to the next bourbon and it's to me, it's there in your face. Yeah. yeah And that to me, that's very much a lot of that classic sort Islay style, know, favorite next bourbon casts. Look for anyone who's keen on that particular style. Mate, I think you've absolutely nailed it. This is yeah rich and oily and broad. With the ex-Burban cast maturation in particular, you get a great look at the spirit and that spirit is, you know, there's some great florals and fruits there, I think, as well. um I'd love to bring the the abd and sorry the ABV down. Maybe a bit more of that might poke out. But um but yeah, look, it's it's a fun, fantastic, delicious whiskey to start with, mate. Yeah, thanks.
Speaker: And so these and these two, they're the first two you're releasing or yeah by the time this goes out, you'll be weeks away, hopefully, cross fingers from the first release. So these two two are the two first releases or the two first releases? Yes. I've got a third one here, which we haven't brought out yet, which is a non-pated.
Speaker: Which again is still at the cast strength. So that's one is 59.7. Yeah. I'm setting a trend here with the cast strength preference. That is what, yeah, like we we want to make something, the whole thing is to make something that we want to drink. yeah That we want to go, you know, instead of drinking the Ardbeg, let's drink ours. Like I said, that's not going to happen. I don't think the Ardbeg is exceptional. Like for us, that is...
Speaker: or even Brooklyn, they are something that we just love. yeah But if we can make something similar, which is where we've gone, we sort of aim for with this Peter used to go for that style. um That's what we want to do. So hopefully other people like what we like so when we're excited about by it and like it hopefully we find other people who go you know what i'm the same i love that sort of flavor and and oiliness that comes through yeah cool and and we're here now in the the uh the podcast studio grain stalks sponsored lalemond thank very much thank you crew at lalemond um what brings you here we came last year for the first time so we just saw it come up as an ad last year and we thought
Speaker: maybe let's let's meet some people we didn't know anybody we'd sort of done everything by ourselves for a couple years before that didn't really know enough in the industry so this we got things coming close to being released let's go meet up with people here some the the back big thing too was saying there's gonna be speaking like speakers on different subjects and like we could learn a lot as we taught ourselves so and how is that online research reading like you how how did you teach yourself along the way yes so he again when we're in Scotland we went to one of the tillage we visited was lock you was called yep yep and that's just a little distillery as part of a hotel and he went through the whole process of what he does what he likes did your phones out good before you had smartphones so it's yeah um
Speaker: but we remembered a lot of it yeah and a few tips that he had and then a lot of the online forums digging through forums yeah um still it on youtube yep you'll learn a bit off of a lot of him um as well and then a lot of trial and error yeah right like we tried stuff like that didn't we ran it's still too slow that wasn't very good yeah let's speed it up um yeah and then you got a lot of other feedback and sort of got a real taste for the community here last year Yes, yes. So we were really surprised at how much, how friendly, well not friendly, but how everyone come together. Like brewers, distillers, the grain people, because you've got...
Speaker: which also surprised me is you've got Voyager here where we're at and you got Cryomalt with a stand and you had show watch joe white Joe White and then you had another team from Adelaide here last year. oh um'm sat we're up amat and' going They're all competitors at the same, you know, and they're all friends. And yeah like when we started, we thought of every other trade where I'm not telling you anything, yeah you're my competitor.
Speaker: um Yeah, whereas when come here, it really opened our minds and blew our blue our minds that, hey, this is such a friendly community be part of. yeah And then when it come up this year, we're like, there's no question we're coming. i Try and be a bit more a part of it as well. Next year you'll be presenting.
Speaker: Yeah, it'll be nice. nice um And so, you know the the first release are out, hopefully out a few weeks from um from this podcast going out. Do keep us in the loop so we can let people know. Aside from that, um you know, any plans for a cellar door or a tasting room or anything like that down the line? you're down the line we would like to do cellar door or tasting room at the moment that's um in regards to council that is a lot of money and expense to to put into it that we haven't yet got to yep and at the time we didn't have anything we're ready to go so now that we've got something ready to go that's like we can
Speaker: looking to further down the track here. That's great. Well, thanks for coming and sharing these, ah the whiskeys with us. i don't want to keep you too long from all the talks and all that networking going downstairs. But yeah, it's been great to meet you. We'll see you over over the course the rest of the weekend and best of luck with everything. thanks too Thanks for having us on. thanks Appreciate it. Cheers. Cheers.
Speaker: Registrations for CIBD 2027 are now open. Held in Brisbane from the 15th to the 18th of March, 2027, the 39th edition of the Chartered Institute of Brewers and Distillers Convention is a must attend for every forward thinking brewery and distillery. This year's theme is Brewing and Distilling, the Adaptive Future.
Speaker: Resilience, relevance, reinvention. Celebrating innovation and craftsmanship, the convention brings together professionals from across the Asia-Pacific region and beyond to share knowledge, explore new ideas and strengthen the connections that make our industry so collaborative and compelling.
Speaker: From match to mastery, the future of our industry will be defined not by volume alone, by value, quality, adaptability and bold leadership. ship This convention is an opportunity for attendees to contribute to that future together.
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Speaker: Richard Chamberlain from Lallamond, have you found grain stock this year? It's been really good. um First time coming, didn't come last year. um so yeah, no, it's been really good to attend. Lots of good conversation. It's like a fantastic setting for you know an industry event, whether it's beer and distilling as well. And, it's such a great location and everyone's in really good spirits. so yeah, can't complain at all. It's great.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of people who came made made it last year or missed who are like back and and want to hang out and see what it's like if they didn't come or we're like, I've got to block that weekend off on the calendar because I can't miss it. Absolutely. Yeah, and it certainly seems like it's family friendly as well. then There's options to expand it out a bit.
Speaker: Cool. And um I've always known you, well, not always known you, I've actually met you when you were still brewing, I think, but I've long known you as the technical manager at Lallamond, but I've just found out about your also role focused on ah processing and nutrition. you want tell us a little bit about what that's about?
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. So we've got like technical specialist for and yeah process efficiency and nutrition. and And it's very much like internally, we've got yeah and many of our technical ah technical managers have different skill sets and different interests and it's very much about like grouping those people together and getting them to work on ah you know new products or um you doing trials or you know sort of try and find ways to ah yeah understand more what those products do and how they affect in ah in the brewery so that we can you know increase our technical support for um for the brewers and for the people who are using our products uh you know and that's a big part of what lalaman does you know we we obviously have the products for sale and but a big part of what we do is you know we're supporting that with uh technical skills and our technical knowledge and and the understanding that we have behind our products um and just helping brewers to get the best out of their you know what they're using um so and it kind of ties into our sort of the education side of you know what lalaman does with the siebel institute you know it's really not just you know this is how you this is the product dose you should use it's like these are the reasons why and these are the effects if you don't do it in the right way and know um so yeah it's really about just getting the people who have the passion as well as the understanding behind it to really help to push those products uh and the understanding of those products to their uh to the the highest degree
Speaker: Yeah, and basically, I mean, you were just talking about a big topic of here's all the ways you can save money. Yeah. but By making your beard better, more efficiently, or also making sure you don't have to throw it all out. That's right, that's right. And yeah, as I said in the presentation, the most inefficient batch is the one that you put down in the drain.
Speaker: And, you know, whatever we can do to, you know, ah stop that from happening but also yeah would be called like the one percenters i always as a brewer i always felt that you kind of got to the maximum of 90 happy with your beer maybe maybe a bit higher than that and it's always those little one percenters those little tweaks that you make just to give you you know the most better consistency or you know better predict people just help you sleep at night That's the other side of things. you know You don't have to worry so much that and you know maybe your fermentation is going to stall or um you know it's going to take an extra couple of days to to drop the yeast out or something like that. Having that consistency just yeah gives you that peace of mind, especially when you're you know in a more senior role within the production brewery.
Speaker: Awesome. Well, thanks for joining me, Rich. Thanks, Will. Pleasure. Cheers, mate. The Full Measure podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. For all partnership inquiries, reach out to c Craig Williams, craig at thefullmeasure.com.au.
Speaker: To keep up to date with everything happening in Australian spirits, visit thefullmeasure.com.au and subscribe.
