Transcript
Speaker: Sullivan's winning in 2014, I think it came at a really, really important time. There was this tide rising of producers doing stuff and playing around the edges um in parts of the world that weren't typically seen as a place that you'd make whiskey.
Speaker: And so it it i think what happened is it just lit the powder keg. plus and And it's blown up. At The Full Measure, we're all about encouraging you to try something local for your next spirit purchase.
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Speaker: We're incredibly lucky to be joined today by one of the Australian whiskey industry's most decorated and celebrated individuals. She's the director of whiskey creation for Tasmania's world-beating Sullivan's Cove whiskey.
Speaker: And as a distiller and blender, her skill, her vast technical knowledge, her obsessive attention to detail, and her remarkable palate for car selection and blending has elevated Sullivan's Cove to an even higher level of consistency and complexity. How is that possible, I'm not? Sure, she is, in my very humble opinion, of, if not the leading blenders in this part of the world. And it gives me great pleasure to introduce Heather Tillett to the Full Measure podcast. Welcome.
Speaker: That's the jazziest, coolest intro I've ever had. Dramatic. Wow, mate. It's a dramatic distillery, dramatic whiskey. And, mate, it's ah it's such a pleasure to be talking to you. I've been very lucky to have many amazing chats with you over the years. So to to get you on the pod like this is ah is a real treat. um And, yeah, meeting you here today in Adelaide in South Australia in the wine state. And so I guess that's maybe a a nice little segue into to your journey with... ah with I guess Booze Creation, Sullivan's Cove. If you want to take us back to maybe um your early career in sort of wine the progression to Sullivan's Cove, how did that all come about?
Speaker: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for some time. This is really exciting. It's going to a be great chat. We've had many great chats before and I think this will be the best. Yeah, all right. can feel it. yeah um But, yeah, my journey to Sullivan's ah started with wine.
Speaker: That was my first foray into beverage production, into alcohol production, and i fell in love with it. I fell in love with so much about wine and that I still hold dear. you know it's a It's a wonderful philosophy, the winemaking philosophy of taking part of the earth and part of the fruits of the earth and preserving it and you know getting out of the way and letting the fruit speak and shine and and ah a wine of place is a wonderful thing. So there's a lot about the philosophy and the creation process of wine that I really fell in love with and and even just being outside.
Speaker: you know like You get to be cool and creative and and work hard and sweat and go home filthy and have to put your shoes in the washing machine every night. and you know There's something about this really cool combination of real honest hard work that feels good in your body yeah and being creative and using your senses every day. And, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot to love about it. And, um, so I, I fell very much in love with the wine world and, um,
Speaker: a few years in ended up moving to Tasmania. Yep. Okay. Um, and of course, mean, Tasmania has good place be outside. Fantastic wine, great place to be outside most of the year and an incredible wine region as well. So, uh, that was really exciting. And, um,
Speaker: But to be honest, very quickly after moving to Tasmania, that was January 2015, I started hearing local Tasmanian people talking about whiskey in an Epicurean sense, which yeah right that that have have I not experienced up until that point. um I'm from the south coast of New South Wales, a small town, and whiskey in my experience to that point was...
Speaker: at the North Narrow Tavern mixed with Coke playing pool on a Friday night, yeah right? Yeah. so That's pretty much all about all Australians' introductions of whiskey, right? That's it. And, um yeah, I never saw it as this this beautiful product of agriculture and place and creation, like creative creativity with with people. And it was a major eye-opening experience.
Speaker: um moment And it it was quite uncanny. There was this crazy week of sliding doors and revelations that within the space of seven days, I tried Red Breast 15. It was the first single malt whiskey I ever had. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Starting at the top. but Yeah, yeah, yeah. um I met a local distiller called Rex from Nonesuch. Yep, yeah. Fantastic slow gin. So good. and Beautiful human too. Yeah, a lovely gentleman. yeah So good. And visited Sullivan's Cove.
Speaker: and started full-time work at Sullivan's Cove. Jeez. I've been there over a decade now. So it was this beautiful week and it just all fell into place. The universe just did its thing and poof, there we go. But I had this realisation that whisky was not what I thought it was. It's this incredible medium for not only creating beautiful product, yeah but it's something that can stop time. It can hold time to ransom. You know, you you have those moments where, mean, for me, it's Gorgonzola every time. it' It's Red Breast 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's it's beautiful wine. a Chablis, da-da-da-da-da. You know, these products that you...
Speaker: You just stop. Everything goes away. The anxieties of life disappear. Time is non-existent. And the power in that for me, i just couldn't walk past. And I also at Sullivan's peeked out the back and saw Myrtle, this gorgeous Charantay Alenbic shaped copper steel and thought that's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker: I want it I want to be part of this thing. I can feel it. So it was it was just what happened and and here we are. Fantastic. So, I mean, 2015 was such a fascinating time to join. If we think back to, I remember i still remember the day really clearly, March 21, 2014, Sultan's Cove becomes the first whiskey outside of Japan and Scotland to win World Whiskey Awards. Pretty big, yeah.
Speaker: you know, leaving single malt. um I remember like panic stations at the distillery. i remember, well, I wasn't there, obviously. I remember hearing Pat, well, you couldn't get in touch with Pat, but you know, the media around it was enormous. Apparently ringing off the hook and they end up just taking it off because they're like, what the hell? people are scrambling from all over the world. They've been, you know, to try and get a bottle of this stuff. The distillery team are just getting absolutely bombarded. yeah um i you know I remember personally, we we were lucky to to taste, to get Pat up to Melbourne at Whiskey Enalment and do a tasting with the the world beating whiskey, HH0525. 525, the number. Yeah, and then we did some other whiskeys. Famously for us, it wasn't everyone's favorite whiskey of the night. we We had it next to multiple single casts and it was... an incredible experience. um and And, you know, has really shifted the dial for for Tasmanian Australian whiskey ever since. Hugely.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, it, i mean, it was a watershed moment yeah for Tasmanian whiskey. It was a watershed moment for Australian whiskey. It was a watershed moment for global whiskey. And I used the word global as in the categories, the category of whiskey outside Scotch, Japanese whiskey, American whiskey, Irish whiskey. um Up until that point,
Speaker: You know, I mean, it's really only been in recent years that we've stopped saying, I'll have scotch. I'll have a scotch on the rocks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We say I'll have a whiskey.
Speaker: I know. Or great I feel like a Japanese whiskey tonight. Or you know what? I do feel like scotch. And we mean whiskey produced in Scotland. Yeah. You know, whiskey and scotch had been synonymous terms for very, very, very long time. Yeah.
Speaker: Sullivan's winning in 2014, I think it came at a really, really important time. There was this tide rising of producers doing stuff and playing around the edges um in parts of the world that weren't typically seen as a place that you'd make whiskey. yeah And so it it i think what happened is it just lit the powder keg, just boof, and it's blown up. And I think it showed people, no, actually, you really can create beautiful whiskey anywhere in the world and it will reflect that place in the world and yeah the style is a little bit different from the whiskey that we know but that's kind of cool yeah and it's exciting i mean the opportunities that we have creatively
Speaker: ah I think everyone's minds just had an upgrade. We did an expansion kind of moment. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, I reckon if you Googled like angel numbers, 525 meaning, a thing would happen. 525 is now a number. It's a special number. It's magic, man. It's magic. Yeah, yeah. um So you must have been cognizant of of when you arrived, of i guess, the the shift and the change. You come in at that moment and yeah, I mean, and then suddenly, you know, speaking to Pat before, you know, before the award and then since, you know, how difficult it was to to move to Tasmania we see at that point and then afterwards, it's a completely different story. So talk to us about coming into a distillery, going through that sort of moment.
Speaker: Well, I came in bit over a year after the moment and um to be honest,
Speaker: If you didn't know, you wouldn't you wouldn't have picked it up. You would have just felt like there was a nice warm buzz in the room. like And ah I think that really speaks to the down-to-earth nature of the people of Sullivan's over the years. I mean, everybody who knows Pat McBly will know he's the sweetest, humblest genius of a man. um And he won't blow his own horn. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: It's not the way he rolls. Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that's continued with Sullivan's and and I think back to that that time and um I actually really like that. you know It's never been about ego. It's genuinely about creating really beautiful product and You know, I know, Pat said he thought thought we got a bit lucky that first time and I'll be buggered, it's happened three times since, you know. Tenure has been achieved and no, it wasn't an accident. And and I know the the global whiskey world kind of thought the same. Was this a fluke? Was this an accident? Probably.
Speaker: Well, it keeps happening. Well, there's nothing an accidental about it now. No, there's nothing accidental about And then we look at, you know, the the many, many winners of of significant global whiskey accolades since from many parts of the world. Yeah. So that's pretty wonderful. But um it's nice, you know. we
Speaker: and One of the thing that things that happens a lot is we'll be talking to people. They might be new to whiskey. Yeah. And they realise that there's this list of world's best awards on the wall or, you know, they might have seen it somewhere online and they're like, why aren't you screaming it from the rooftops? You know, like people should know about this. This is so great. We're Australians. We're proud of this.
Speaker: um And, you know, we do talk about it, but it is not our defining feature. yeah And it's not it's not the reason we get up out of bed. Nor will it ever be. yeah And it never should be. it's so Awards are a really nice bit of encouragement um that say you're doing a good job and and we as an industry think Thumbs up. Thumbs up for how you operate, what you do, your product. And that's really awesome. That's really awesome. That's a great perspective to bring it to. I think yeah that's probably something I'll use to to talk to other designers about it because it is, ah you know, the the question around was it as a spirits judge as well, you know, I'm involved deeply in this process. Yeah, yeah it is a a big, big talking point, isn't it? so Absolutely, yeah. When you first arrived, though, so what I'd love to get is a feeling on what your sort of first interpretations of the spirit and the whiskey were like. Because, I mean, you've got such a – even then you would have come at it from a and a really in-depth lens having worked in wine. But what were some of the things that stood out to you about Southern Scope spirit or car selection or the range itself?
Speaker: I was really blown away by the balance – and And that's a, you know, wine palate brains are obsessed with balance and complexity and and getting out of the way. You know, the best winemakers get out of the way.
Speaker: You're not just slapping your ego on what you think is going to be amazing onto this thing. piece of the earth's soul, you know, um you are working with it and you need to listen and be humble and get out of the way so that you can listen and hear the possibilities and what's actually going on, whether it be this this vineyard, whether it be this this vintage of or season of barley or this cask. you You need to get out of the way to hear the whiskey
Speaker: so that you know then how to to kind of wrap your arms around it and work with it to bring its best self forward. um And so that that's the way my mind kind of came into it and it I was struck by Sullivan's in that.
Speaker: And I remember the tasting. It was a Friday afternoon. Charlie, who's still with us. Yeah, wow. He's our um distilling supervisor now. He was doing the tasting. And i just couldn't believe it because there's this whiskey that's shy of 50%. Yeah.
Speaker: In a first fill French oak old banging dusty boots Barossa tourniquasque. It was balanced. It wasn't hot. It's incredible, a first fill spirit, like a first fill French oak cask and the spirit aged in it.
Speaker: It wasn't over-oaked. There was balance between the elements and I just thought that was incredible that you can have oak from like a first fill. whiskey maturation for years. Like I think the whiskey that day was like a 16 or an 18 year old or something. And it can be powerful oak, but it can be gentle and balanced with the other elements and of that expression. And that that blew my mind because I had never, ever thought that whiskey could be that way.
Speaker: You know, the whiskey that I'd had in the past was hot. You know, you brace yourself. yeah You know, it grows hairs on your chest or something like that, you know. It's full on. It wasn't the case. You can have this intense experience that is gentle and balanced and nuanced and that just blew my mind.
Speaker: It's a beautiful thing. That's great. And I'd love to briefly touch on Patrick Maguire as well, the former distillery manager, co-owner. What were some of the things, and I think the transference story in Sullivan's is great, and that's starting to happen more in Tasmanian Whiskey now. We're starting to see that sort of movement between generations. It's great.
Speaker: It means we're growing. It's exciting. Totally, yeah. yeah um But yeah, I guess talk to us about that relationship with Pat and what you learned from him and things that you sort of were really keen to hold on to from from his tenure. So much. um He is a patient man. Yeah.
Speaker: ah He's a humble man. um And or two things. My first day, he looked in the eye and he's like, Heather,
Speaker: There is nothing that you can do, like like making a mistake, that I haven't already done. So here's the deal. When you screw up, not if, when, because we all do it. It's okay. It's it's natural. It's human.
Speaker: Come to me and tell me. If you hide things... you'll be out the door. And that's the same. I've told every single one of our new our staff members since many, many, many over the years the same thing. And that's the way we roll. I got your back.
Speaker: Yeah, that's great. That's awesome. but be real. We're here to create together. We're here to be good human beings together. And there's nothing you can do that we already haven't done. And I had the pleasure, probably a couple months later, of actually going to Pat and saying, I did a thing and I know you haven't done it. You said this, but I tried my best. I found one. That's exactly right. I collapsed one of the receiver tanks because I didn't get to release the pressure in time. And everything back then was super, super manual. And I've got no shame in saying we all do dumb stuff like that. But, yeah, he hadn't done that, so that felt good. um But the other thing with Pat is, and and this is, there is a lesson in here and and I always have to keep coming back to it, um have an analytical mind. And so this is this is critical. Something can be technically perfect, but it can lack salt.
Speaker: Yeah. Do you actually desire to to drink this whiskey, you know, and enjoy it? know, Pat always said, you know you know, we've got the tasting pattern, we've got the scores and everything.
Speaker: But do I want to drink it? Do I actually want to drink it? It really has to pass technical muster, obviously, but ultimately it's got to feel good. And that speaks to intuition. And so there's this back from Pat, i you know, you observe in him, this technical mastery, but a deep, deep intuition. And I really do believe that the latter is actually behind much of Sullivan's success.
Speaker: yeah And you have to be in touch with that. And that's hard because our ego wants us to be in control, which means we always go for technical and analytical precision and everything has to be perfect. But the soul comes through the human touch, which is intuition.
Speaker: And that's, you got to let go a little bit. That's scary. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, but that's that's a very Pat McGuire thing. And so, I mean, that that intuition is something that, can you teach that?
Speaker: Is it something that you can, is something that it just takes time for it to develop? or Yeah. Talk us about that. i I think it's a combination. Like some people are but find it easier to to learn it. Yeah. um And I think like one of the, yeah, you can teach it. However, it takes time and repetition, repetition. It's like the Japanese sushi chef thing, you know. Yeah. um You've just got to do the same thing over and over and over again until somehow it's just part of you or whatever. But ah when we hire staff and we're bringing people into our community, right?
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of the things we look Obviously, there's like an ability to learn or already if you've got the technical knowledge and whatnot, that's great. But it's all countenance. It's all the EQ. It's the ability to know a whole bunch of stuff but be able to say, this is what I know but in this moment, this is what I feel and I'm happy to put this over here and recognise that I might love that or I might not love that but this is the brand and this is the Sullivan's DNA and I'm putting my personal ego outside the door for the team ego and the brand ego. that takes lot
Speaker: that that takes a lot of humility and intuition to kind of feel what's going on and be a great team member when but everyone's got this higher purpose yeah with with producing amazing whiskey. And, um yeah, I think that you just recognise it in people, the ability to work in a high-performing team rather than i know stuff, I'm a great distiller.
Speaker: That's never going to end well if that's what it's all about. And that's not just about distilleries. that's That's the world and teams, right? Yeah, yeah cost all stuff. yeah um You speak about it so sort of naturally and evocatively and brilliantly now, but um was there a sort of moment when... you sort of realise that Patrick steps away eventually from Sullivan's Cove after his, you know, big, long, amazing tenure. Yeah. um and you're given the the reins to the Sullivan's Cove whiskey direction moving forward. like Was there was there a a moment or two when it really dawned on you like, wow, this is, this is you know, i'm I'm leading this ship now? The stomach flip moments. Yeah. For sure, yeah. I actually remember the day Pat retired from the business and I was just standing in this big office.
Speaker: and now it's my office. Like, what do I do? Oh, my God, this is terrifying. um it was It was almost like, you know, when a parent passes, you know, there's this this protective thing between you and them. Sorry, you and the terrifying vastness of the universe yeah is yeah is gone. um And it's totally terrifying. So, you know, really that that lasted for a while. i think that it took a while to kind of sink in. And even now, every now and then, i still go oh yeah that's a thing yeah right but i guess i kind of like learned to live with the the fear and you know invite an infotee and all the rest of it and kind of thank it because i think if it wasn't for a sense of weight that would be bad news for sullivan's yeah it is as it is for any brand you know i think you have to have a sense of reverence um and appreciation of the weight um you know i mean it'd be easy to to come in and be like oh
Speaker: I get to choose, you know, do stuff and make decisions and let it get to your head. But I came into Sullivan's when it was it was already notorious.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. As a brand, as a style of spirit. um So that's not the gig. um It's very much for me it has been a journey about ah having reverence for the brand and the product and our bond stores and our processes and our people and um our connection with our community network and understanding that at a deep level and really, really, really getting to the DNA of who we are, what we do, why we do it, our philosophy and just blowing that up.
Speaker: You know, just blow that up. That was exciting. Fantastic. All right. Well, I think um we might take a little break and come back in part two and then we'll maybe dig into all of the the the new Fandango beauty that Sullivan's is right now. So we'll take a break. You're back, mate.
Speaker: Sounds good.
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Speaker: So we're back with Heather Tillett, Director of Whiskey Creation. for solve I love that. I mean i know. I'm going to keep using that. I need to honey's come up with a title like that for myself. I'll have to have a think. But, yeah, now we're arriving at a really lovely, beautiful place with the unveiling of the new $14 million. dollars Distillery, um I was lucky to be there for the launch, which was one of the most exceptional distillery launches I've ever experienced. It was moody, it was stunning music from the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra. It was ah it was all happening. It was a memorable night. um
Speaker: You've got to obviously fill us in on the facelift. There's a lot to tell, obviously, in terms of the really a complete redesign in some ways of the process. um Yeah, luus to give us give us a sense of what's changed and how the new distillery has enabled you to sort of move everything forward. What went down.
Speaker: Yeah. um So we have been at our current Cambridge site from the early 2000s. Yeah.
Speaker: And our operational equipment and our cellar door have always had this beautiful, unassuming humility, humble magic about them. Um, but after 20 years,
Speaker: things start wearing out, yeah you need a facelift, it's natural. And we also needed to to realign with regulatory compliance pieces, which you know in that space is really, really developed in the distilling space, space which is a fantastic thing. yeah So we had to do something, right? We wanted to do something, wanna increase the capability of our visitor experience offerings.
Speaker: and also increase the capacity and capability of our distilling operations. We've always had Myrtle, the old girl, she's one still doing everything. And so we were we were really limited to, i mean, if we were going to really stretch it and nothing ever went wrong, you might be able to get about 80,000 lars
Speaker: it's it's Maybe. Yeah, it's fine. I mean, to put it out in perspective, Scotland in particular, obviously, is sort of advanced in this regard, but, you know, minimum sort of 750, 800 million a year. Yeah, I mean, these days if you're looking to put in a decent-sized Scotch distillery, you wouldn't look at anything under that 800, 900 levels capacity in a year. So really, really small scale. um And, you know, i mean, we we'd been operating myrtle seven days a week,
Speaker: every day except for year's day good friday and christmas day every year for years and poor old darling really needed a holiday so so it it all kind of just came together um so we also wanted to bring our grain processing and brewing in-house and up until that point uh which was 30
Speaker: 31, 32 years, we had been partnering with local breweries, particularly Cascade, Last Rites, Moo Brew for a bit there, for for custom wash.
Speaker: So we had proprietary recipe of wash with these people and these wonderful brewing institutions. um And and in in those relationships with these incredible brewers, we came to understand a DNA, you know.
Speaker: And so those relationships remain really important to who we are. But at some point you want to bring it in house.
Speaker: So it it all just kind of made sense. It all made sense. um And so... Major facelift for the site. We popped in all of the operational equipment, obviously, you know, everything from a silo all the way through to the cask filling. Myrtle went on a holiday and had a nip tuck. We had we added in two gorgeous facade stills that we we designed on Myrtle, off of Myrtle's shape. Was that was that unique for them? oh
Speaker: Yeah. that it's The facades don't make many Charentae Allenby style steels. I've never seen one. Well, I have now. No, it was a fun project for them. yeah um So obviously the steel shape is really, really important to you know your your core DNA of your spirit styles. And with Sullivan's having a very unique steel type for whiskey creation, Charentae Allenby, it's basically...
Speaker: what you make cognac with. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So that that's a really interesting perspective to start with. And so anyway, we had to keep that. That was important. So another spirit still the same. And then a wash still. We had to blow up the bent bell like bends and curves in the wash still because when you increase the volume, you lose that copper surface area for vapours to interact with, of course, which is super important to flavour creation. So when you see the stills, it's like, oh, yeah, there's Myrtle and then there's her twin sister and then there's this like bloop thing that looks like something that leaves under the sea. it's like steampunk. If we were to...
Speaker: Doe Hell for Leather 24 hours a day 365 days a year, the theoretical maximum capacity at this point is about 440,000, 450,000 Laos. Yeah. I mean, so that's a significant increase for you. It is. And it's fairly significant in terms of Tasmania. It is. But again, globally. Absolutely. It's a significant percentage increase. Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, globally, eh. But yeah, we're not producing anywhere near that. We are not touching the sites. It's ah it's a capacity piece. Yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah, it's very exciting. um And, of course, our cellar door had a major, beautiful revamp. And the heart and soul of of what we wanted to achieve there was to maintain that intimacy that you felt before the upgrade with the distillery, the floor, like with Myrtle, the still. like We want people to be amongst it still because previously, if you had visited us, you'll remember, there was this mezzanine.
Speaker: Whereas like just tables and barrels and sit ah ah chairs and barrels, you'd sit around and and taste whiskey and you could almost reach over and and touch myrtle. Yeah. So cool. So cool. So it it was very much part of the the process. So we wanted to maintain that. um But it was, you know, let's be real. It's a concrete tilt panel shed in light industrial Cambridge with a steel roof.
Speaker: And, um, If a leaf from the tree fell on to the roof, it just makes this bang. And every drop of rain, you're basically yelling at customers and visitors and clients. It's terrible. So the visitor experience, the lounge and the tasting room is climate controlled and there is a some some pretty cool padding and whatnot yeah on the top of the roof there. So acoustically it passes muster and it's this beautiful place zen warm it is it's like a little zen place it is a total zen for everyone obviously encourage you to visit of course you've got to visit like when you travel to tassie next um but you you know you walk in and you're really sort of it's like a little theatrical sort of whiskey cocoon it is yeah and it feels otherworldly like you feel like you've stepped into ah another zone and it's just such a you know great way to sort of really get into the bones that's right so yeah and you walk in and we hear it a lot oh wow and you've got to walk through this kind of almost a tunnel to get upstairs and then you can see the stills so you get to be in this nice comfortable climate controlled quiet tasting space it's very very comfortable and you can just watch us do stuff with the stills so it's really nice um
Speaker: Yeah, and of course, you know, we offer tours, tasting experiences. It's a great place just to hang. yeah absolutely. Just to be, yeah. So, I mean, we could go down rabbit holes with this discussion, but i'd love to just quickly um touch on, before we maybe move to maybe the cast and the range itself, what's changed about your distillation processes? Yeah. spirit character. I mean, I know we can we can really dive down the rabbit hole with the Sullivan spirit character. try embrace myself for not being too naughty. Yeah, I know we have talked about this before. But yeah, I mean, for anyone sort of future thinking, what's Sullivan's going to look like when the the new spirit is matured into you know some exceptional whiskey? what's um What's changed? What's remained the same? What's been difficult to sort of ah transfer across?
Speaker: Well, I mean, the thought of not um not Not even just increasing capability. Like that's that's not even part of it in my mind. The thought of changing anything in the equipment is a little bit terrifying because you're really like ripping around someone's engine. Yeah.
Speaker: That's a bit scary. um So the key was before we change a thing, we have to understand really who we are. from a spirit perspective. What's our DNA? How do we define ourselves? What is that Sullivan's thing?
Speaker: What is it? When you put the glass up to your nose and you say, well, it's obviously Sullivan's Cove, what on earth do you mean? yeah What is that? Whether it's a French oak tourney, a bourbon cask, an appara, a chardonnay, a double cask, is yeah we don't want to mess with that. That's the essence. So i spent a few years looking through old records, distillation records, brewing stuff, looking at old spirit samples and single cast bottlings. Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, that would be fun. was Yeah, it was really, really cool. But really just trying to trying to map out, okay, what is like the quintessential Sullivans? What worked? What ah could have been a bit better? And what are the what are the patterns?
Speaker: There's always a pattern. Yeah. And then really profiling two spirit styles in particular that really were the two main kind of eras of spirit production and saying, all right, well, well that's what they are and creating a new one.
Speaker: um Because both of those were very much ah absolutely bangers, very long-term age spirit. Yeah. um Which is, I mean, Sullivan's is known for it.
Speaker: we We do a very good job of it. And the spirit that's created is funky as, and it it comes good in time. It's amazing. um But from a perspective of, you know, the double cask, I want to be able to add a little bit of younger whiskey in there.
Speaker: makes it a better whiskey. yeah Better balanced, more interesting, expressive, et cetera. And um we would also be able to produce a bit more of it. So thought we need a spirit style that encapsulates all the different things, like that golden thread of Sullivan's.
Speaker: but created in a way that is a bit less funky so that, you know if we're looking, we might look at like a six to eight year window that it ah really come come to maturity yeah and hit it straps then and that's an incredible blending component.
Speaker: um So ah did that exercise and again, working with our brewers was so helpful for that.
Speaker: And I figure
Speaker: then it's okay to start looking at how do we changing how we actually achieve that yeah because we know what a heart and soul is. and I think that it's a good lesson that if you you can define your heart and soul and what what you are really about, your DNA, then you'll know what to protect and what you can shift without it being an impact.
Speaker: And so with a site upgrade, we were like, okay, this is a great opportunity because hands up who's sick of cleaning the still out with a karcher every morning. so Everybody puts their hands up. CIP, hallelujah.
Speaker: Adds efficiency with time, you get a better job. You can also play around with it. If you want a little bit of funk remaining, just don't clean it as much, but you can play around with it and you can press a button. It's safer, it's cleaner, it's more efficient.
Speaker: Major opportunity for wins there. um But also to engineer in those weird things that we do that we've kind of just done and figured out over years that make us who we are. yeah um Really long fermentation times.
Speaker: secondary fermentation for a week just to let the lactic acid bacteria go bonkers um you know having separate fermentations and marrying them uh slow distillations and we might you know we've got a worm tub as well so we want to know what all the temperature is everywhere i think i don't think the sites had ever had as many temperature transmitters and they still joke about it actually um yeah i think it it it was really really awesome to be out engineering those things yeah i think what I'm seeing in terms of this new progression of the Sullivan's Cove, but I guess, system and distillery is more Japanese in a lot of ways, where you have, if you think about how Yamazaki and Hakushu and, you know, multiple other Japanese distilleries operate, they have the ability to create different spirit styles in-house at the one place, which then just opens up this incredible, you know, Pandora's box of potential where you go down all these different avenues in terms of flavor creation and creating completely different styles and and creating different forms of single malt from the one place, which is definitely not something i have I've seen too much in Australia. do you think that would be, is that a good comparison for people out there to sort of wrap that around? Because we're not, you've sort of left in a lot of ways Scottish single malt territory, which is basically, it's not always the case. Lots of ancillaries do create different styles at the one place as well, but it's more been engineered over, you know, many decades and even longer just to be. We do this thing and that's what we do and blenders get it. and a while Yeah, that's right. And often for a very good utility, and a noble utility because, you know, we exist in distillery, i don't know, Cambridge lock or something, to produce a very important and specific component of this enormous blend over here with a wonderful brand yeah and consumer base. So it is critical that we do this and only this. Yeah. yeah Don't touch it. um
Speaker: and And that's great. There is an art in that. Oh, absolutely. And I also think that the discipline involved in that is really, really hard and intense. I i i take my hat off. We're a different operation. There is a lot of discipline involved, of course, but there is the flexibility. And so building in that flexibility, engineering in that flexibility was really important to not only...
Speaker: engineering our already known and existing quirks, our DNA, um but the flexibility to move around as well um and to try new things and and tweak. And what if we want to put this stuff over there? And what if we want to dilute it here? And don't know, what if we want to do some crazy fermentation? We can do it.
Speaker: it's And it's really, really awesome. It's exciting. It is exciting. It's so exciting. And and we simply just didn't have the the logistical capability previously. It was a really simple operation.
Speaker: yeah, it's really cool. It's super exciting. Registrations for CIBD 2027 are now open. Held in Brisbane from the 15th to the 18th of March, 2027, the edition of the Chartered Institute of Brewers and Distillers Convention is a must attend for every forward thinking brewery and distillery. This year's theme is Brewing and Distilling, the Adaptive Future, Resilience, Relevance, Reinvention.
Speaker: Celebrating innovation and craftsmanship, the convention brings together professionals from across the Asia-Pacific region and beyond to share knowledge, explore new ideas and strengthen the connections that make our industry so collaborative and compelling.
Speaker: From match to mastery, the future of our industry will be defined not by volume alone, but by value, quality, adaptability and bold leadership. This convention is an opportunity for attendees to contribute to that future together.
Speaker: Don't miss your chance to be a part of the CIBD Asia Pacific Convention in Brisbane. look now at c id twenty twenty seven dot com dot a Let's go on to this ah very special subject, the car selection side of the Sullivan's Cove process. Very important. you know I've been very lucky to on occasions to sit down with. I've been very, very lucky over the journey to taste you know you know probably a few hundred Sullivan's Cove, which not a lot of people get the opportunity. So I realize I'm sitting in a very unique and and privileged place. Other people you know probably haven't been to engaged the whiskey that much because especially... I started drinking a lot of it before you know everything got crazy. So that's that's partly why. And I'm in the trade, so that's why I have access you know to a lot of this whiskey over the years. um
Speaker: So when we're sitting down and thinking about car selection, Southern Scope, maybe if we give people out there what that looks like. I know it's a pretty in-depth process from your end. But yeah, maybe we can give people ah an indication of how you go about it and what's so special about it.
Speaker: um
Speaker: from a really boring nuts nuts and bolts operational perspective, we have certain percentage of this cask and that cask and this cask that we want to fill each year. So, know, there's some numbers there, yeah yeah um like every good operation.
Speaker: But there's relationships with suppliers are really, really key, whether it's with a bourbon distillery, like direct, a winery or a couple of coopers that we work with very closely. that They have the the direct connections and particularly in the situation whereby, you know, for many fortified or wine casks, we will have them shaved, toasted or charred to varying levels before we fill them yeah the first time with with new make spirits. so There's obviously a really important relationship there with with Coopers. And that's a very trusted relationship as well. I mean, the work that they do is critical for the the final result.
Speaker: Yeah. And they're handling our casks. It's like babies. They're setting them on fire. though So maybe it's not a bad example. um But, you we're looking for fresh casks.
Speaker: They're expressive. Obviously, structurally, they've got integrity. and Providence and story get bonus points. But, yeah, I think, you know, particularly when we talk about wine casks, they've got to be fresh. yeah You want to know and you need to be to trust and see that they've been handled correctly and rapidly as well. They're not sitting around blowing up with VA everywhere and um ruining your whiskey at the end of the day. So yeah, big on big on freshness. Yeah, it makes a difference, that's for sure. And um I guess moving forward, so you know people will be familiar with the range if they're not. Obviously, um you know we can we can discuss that, but I think most people now are familiar with the the original sort of French um American oak and double cask. And there's this array of beautiful single casks. And more recently, the the extensively aged stuff up at 21, 22, 23, 25-year-old now. We're getting curia-tricky, people. um So, yeah, that's, that's you know, quarter century stuff is pretty damn exciting. That's pretty amazing. and And then most recently, The Navigator, which is a bit of a, you know. New kid on the block. New kid on the block. We've been geared towards thinking about Sutherland's Cove as this, you know, single cast focused operation. Maybe yeah tell us what's changed or how The Navigator has changed that up.
Speaker: Well, I guess stepping back a bit, you hit the nail on the head. Sullivan's has been, well, we have been single cask-focused distillery for a long time, you know, for a couple decades. And double cask is not a single cask. Obviously, it's a marriage of castle and portions of casks.
Speaker: However, we, you know, we're shifting. And it's exciting that... over 10 years ago now gosh 2014 was 12 years ago now yeah with the interest in the distillery more spirit was able to be made and of course we're not talking enormous amounts as you know the scale of the previous operation but um it does mean that we're starting to see a bit more of a pool of whiskey become mature to play with so i'm really really excited about that we all are actually but
Speaker: I just love blending and making double casts. So so you'll be seeing a bit more double casts around the trap. So I'm really excited about if you're exploring the landscape of double casts there. That's really exciting. However, bespoke marriages or battings for the technical term, yeah yeah that's exciting.
Speaker: That's really exciting. So, yes, we're going to be... exploring double casks more, but there's other spaces in our bond store to play with. And so the Navigator comes from that space. It's ah it's a marriage of casks, all American oak. yep So double cask, you always have French oak and American oak. The Navigator is just American oak.
Speaker: And and I saw The Navigator as and a really, really incredible opportunity to get back to Roots for Sullivan's, right? Like we've just done this expansion and we know we've got a bit more whiskey coming online to maturity over the next few years and thinking about, you know, expanding our our domestic and global presence.
Speaker: That's all really exciting. But again, I guess I kind of think back, all right, but before we do another step, let's just make sure we're grounded in Roots. And so it's about – reflecting on the journey we've navigated and navigating back to our roots and then the journey beyond. And as far as roots go, what does that even mean, Heather? what are you talking about? um Three things.
Speaker: Our spiritual DNA. It's that full body, creamy texture. it's ah It's a weighty spirit. It's a bit briny. There's citrus, floral, umami funk layered within.
Speaker: it's It's capturing that heart and soul. an American oak. We at Sullivan's Cove, often people say the blue label, French oak, and so they should.
Speaker: But you know all of our founding casks for a number of years were American oak? Yeah, yeah. I've always been an American oak tract. It's sort of what I love most. about i go if it's not for yeah Other people have different opinions and ideas. We can love it all.
Speaker: We can love it all. It sings in America. The spirit profile just in America. It does, and for good reason. we that was That was the beginnings and the roots of our distillery. Our founding casks for a number of years were American oak. Yeah.
Speaker: um And our spirit pairs brilliantly shines in American oak wood. um So wanted to use some of the actual founding casks that refills, yeah of course, now. But ah that was exciting.
Speaker: And the other element of our roots is our origin story, which is kind of weird. Complicated? It's complicated. To put it mildly. It's kind of weird.
Speaker: Our founder, Rob, he was not a drinks man. And he'll tell you, he's like, I didn't really know much about it. He's an entrepreneurial genius, yeah um property developer, et cetera. And he's the kind of dude that would just have a vision and somehow it happens. You know, that kind of person. It's incredible. It's a thing. um And he, so there's this building in Hobart, if you're familiar with the waterfront called the Gasworks. ye It's got this big brick chimney. He's like, that looks like a brewery.
Speaker: gonna I'm going to put a brewery in there. That was his plan. Anyway, around the same time, he was in Japan on a trade delegation sitting in Ginza and he saw a bunch of Japanese businessmen drinking, think it was Japanese single malt with local shellfish.
Speaker: Wow. And it was a thing. fact, it was a thing you do. And it paired really well. That's great. Light bulb moment. He's like, I'm not going to do a brewery. We'll make whiskey in the chimney building, obviously. So he's like, all right, going back home.
Speaker: We're to put a distiller in the waterfront in Hobart. We're going to make a spirit. It's going to be amazing. We're going pair it with local seafood. Tassie has such great seafood. Meant to be. So we did it. And I thought, you know, it's not something we've really spoken heaps about and explored yeah is that story. You know, you just kind of get on with it over the years. The story got some curly curly corners and, you know, you're kind of like, oh,
Speaker: How much of it do we share? But I thought, you know what, there's a lot to that. We've got really, really full-bodied spirit, as you know. it's It's heavy on your palate and it's quite creamy. And from a food pairing perspective, that is just insanely like meant to be because it means you it can stand up with.
Speaker: big steak can stand up to a ah beautiful, you know, miso with a poached mackerel in there, like your big flavours. It can stand up to it and hold space for it. And, you know, can hold space for salt and acid and so good. I thought, yeah, well, let's do it. Let's get back to roots.
Speaker: Yeah, great. I guess for some context there, I mean, that's ah's an incredible period. That 90s period in Tasmania and whiskey histories, you have Bill and Lynne Lark doing their thing, um you Brian Polk up north. yeah um the I think it's it's probably not really um commonly talked about, understood out there, that Sullivan's really the first commercial operation. And yeah Rob Hoskin really puts into place so many of the benchmarks. yeah the the the traits of Tasmania we see like the old you know having a cellar door in a heritage building or space um you know thinking about those those links to Tasmanian food and um and the and the brewery side of it as well yeah that's some of the early distilers trained there in at Sullivan's Go that's exactly right that's right yeah it's I mean, the relationship with Cascade Brewery out that. Exactly, which then sort of became... Which just hugely guided the style of spirit that comes from state. And the first whiskey release too. Yeah. Well, that's right. The first whiskey release as well. um Since the, well, since the 1830s, probably 1838, 1839. It's probably safe to say. Yeah. Maybe we can go to that sort of cult-like following that Sullivan's has has developed um in recent years because, you know, I know it's been tricky. There are a lot of punters out there who want to get their hands on your exceptional whiskey. And I know, know, I've talked to the the team before about
Speaker: how you enable that, um you know how you work with it, the battle that it has turned into at points. um so Yeah, maybe yeah for for for everyone out there who's thinking, how can I get a little bit more whiskey onto myself? that's right Yeah, to maybe talk us through that process. Yeah, look, at it is ah it is a challenge. um We want to share whiskey with everyone as well.
Speaker: but there is an actual literal scarcity. and You know, with with beer and with wine, you release it more or less what we almost entirely the year it was produced or the vintage or harvest it was produced. So with whiskey, it's very different. And when you're in the business of long-term aging, it's really different. Navigator is 16-year-old American oak carton. Which in the Tasmanian context is, you know, I mean, apart from Hellier's Road, you're almost double, I suppose, the maturation length of most other whiskeys in Tasmania. That's right. So you've got this big stretch. And if you think about it, i guess, nuts and bolts-wise, what we released today
Speaker: is what was produced seven yesterdays ago um and if we were only producing a tiny tiny tiny amount seven yesterdays ago we've got that much to produce now. yeah yeah So it's a really odd i kind of business. It doesn't make sense in many ways.
Speaker: And it takes time. You do it, you you increase production or you decrease production over here and your inventory in the future is significantly impacted. yeah So we had a couple of years, three years, I think, in the early 2000s where and the steel didn't turn on. yeah And so that that puts a really big gap in the inventory. Add to that when the steel was running, it was not producing much.
Speaker: um Seldom, really. Seldom was it was it was it on seven days a week except for and since 525.
Speaker: we're still working through that weird gap in inventory. And so, you know, I hear people saying, oh, you can never get Sullivan's. They must be holding it back. I'm like, well, you can come and sit in our tasting panels if you want. And I can show you our inventory for the years that of stock that we'd be looking at releasing now. There's not much there. So um so it it is just part of the natural living quirk of the distillery business organism. Yeah. So there is a scarcity that is quite real. However, because when 525 happened, there was the ability to invest greater in this business. And so more spirit was was produced. Again, not a huge amount, but we're starting to see the edges of that wave, which is exciting. It means we've got more to play with. Yeah, yeah. um And so, again, Navigator exists. you know we We've got this 16-year-old that could...
Speaker: let's make something really awesome out of this. the The ability to play with double cask and produce a bit more of it. Play around the the landscape of double cask and have some fun. That's exciting. but is That's exciting. And so we're, I'm not going to lie, we're not a business that has decided to expand so that every household in Australia has a bottle of double cask.
Speaker: as much as we want to share and share and share our liquid, we've chosen a smaller scale. and That's our end of the the spectrum. where We're cool dancing in that corner. And, and you know, as well, we we've already had this notorious brand and and product style.
Speaker: we want to produce a bit more but it has to be within remit of that yeah brand and product style you can really like bust it up and lose our heart and soul so fine line with how much we produce now and that obviously has an impact in the inventory in the future but um to answer the question in practice It's a real hard balancing act that shifts depending on the stock availability of what your inventory's got. So, you know, you've got a balance really looking forward, but looking after our dedicated followers.
Speaker: that' That is so important for every brand. yeah You look after your people and ensuring you can do whatever you can to allocate whiskey to the right places, to bring people into the brand, to make new friends and and welcome them to the cove. So it is a balance and it shifts.
Speaker: And if you you understand anything about how we've we've been getting our our whiskey to market over the last decade and how there's been changes there with ballots and website and but all the things, um you'll see changes and they reflect availability of of inventory. And every distillery in the history of the world has had similar sort of ebbs and flows of inventory stuff. And yeah, so it is hard. You you want to balance everything.
Speaker: caring for our loyal people and and getting our whiskey out there to to share with people. yeah yeah It's hard. that is always it's not It's not simple. yeah It's not a simple thing. yes So there's a lot of chat, I guess, about the Australian spirit category moving forward, and what it looks like overseas. I've been lucky to do a tiny bit of travel overseas recently and I get to get around Australia and and get a perception of where people think Australian whiskey and gin and styles and categories are at. um You obviously get to, well, Saladin Skoven awards is like basically moth to a flame. So awards just follow you around. And so you often have to travel all over the world to accept all your awards. When you're there, you must get to engage with lots of people, you know, tastings and stuff like that. How do you think people are now interpreting Australian whiskey?
Speaker: Oh, well, yeah, I mean, look being able to get a whole bunch of distillers together in a room from around from around the world is an amazing opportunity to to vibe um and the feedback that you get is just priceless. So we're seeing...
Speaker: producers around the world, people from our industry around the world really recognising the maturity that's happening in Tasmania and Australia. That's exciting. you know Some of the the bigger names or more recognisable brands, the Sullivans, the Larks, Hellyer's, Overeem,
Speaker: um yeah they've been around for couple decades. yeah um And many of our operations and producers in Australia and Tasmania Within a decade.
Speaker: So to go from brand spanking operation to people recognising globally we've got we've gone from you know brand new to delicious and and you're really kind of finding a style. We're starting to find a style as an Australian producer um and a whisky producing nation that's recognisable. That's amazing.
Speaker: That's incredible. That is like turbocharged. Yeah. spinning the clock sort of stuff. We've got a long way to go and that's great. We're really, for most of our industry, we're a decade in, into the modern, modern Australian whiskey producing era. So I think, you know, looking at what our industry has achieved in last 30 years and the last decade and the last half a dozen years,
Speaker: watch this space. Like it's so, it's really exciting being at ah places, conventions and gatherings like the ADA annual convention. You just get the energy of creativity yeah and it's really, really cool.
Speaker: and definitely I feel proud to be part of an industry like this. It's a, it's a really diverse group of producers and it's quite inclusive and, It's a great place to be and that we are recognized globally as a place that awesome things are happening and really awesome produce spirits being produced is fantastic. that's That is so cool.
Speaker: Definitely exciting. Exciting times. It's exciting. All right. So, well, i can't i couldn't leave. and Is there ah maybe a few final little secrets that you can give us about where Sullivan's Cove might be heading next. What can we yeah what can we look forward to? What's exciting you about sort of the next few years and the things in the pipeline? Well, I've kind of given the secrets away already. So, you know, just blowing up DC a bit and exploring DC. I'm i'm so actually like genuinely super, super frothing at the mouth about that. Yeah, right. And Navigator is something that we're looking to do every year. It might not be 16-year-old American oak x every every year, but it's something that will be dedicated to to really highlighting who we are, heart and soul, our core, our DNA, our roots. And that's exciting. So watch this space. um
Speaker: But... With a bit more stock starting to trickle along, there's the opportunities to be a bit more present domestically in venues. ah Tasting's coming to a place near you you, know, and globally as well. So that's really exciting. um And there is a thirst globally for Australian and Tasmanian whiskey. It's so cool. had this really...
Speaker: Bizarre experience in Hong Kong last year. was in Hong Kong sharing our 25-year-old releases. That was amazing. and um looks yeah Well, thought, well, when in Rome, going to go visit the Macallan store. and They've got two flagship stores in Hong Kong, so i went ah went along to one of them. A beautiful, beautiful brand experience. Stunning, stunning, stunning. stunning um And in.
Speaker: ah walked in And there was a few McAllen staff and there was one customer
Speaker: and he saw me and he pointed at me and he's like, Heather Dillett from Sullivan's Co. And on one hand I was like, oh my gosh, I'm dying inside because the McAllen staff were like quite uncomfortable.
Speaker: And this is going a little off brand and off piste, but I was also like, Suckton, Gallon, Australian whiskey. yeah Wow, that's a river. if How cool is that? and And I don't take that as a how good Sullivan's Cove thing. That is a point that everybody listening should be so proud of, that an Australian brand, and we're real small people, we are so small. If you're thinking of scale globally, a little funny upstart brand from Tasmania,
Speaker: It was recognised in a Macallan store and in Hong Kong. Like, how good is that? And I think that that that to me is hope of a market share that we will have yeah in the future.
Speaker: That when you go to Hong Kong, that when you go to Paris, and when you go to London or Singapore or wherever it is, You'll see Macallan, you'll see the Glendronach, you'll see the Johnny Walker Blue and you'll see Sullivan's Cove.
Speaker: You'll see Starwood, we already do in many, many cities. You'll see Lark and you'll see Bell Grove yeah and you'll see Carrington Mill and you'll see datada and insert so many of our wonderful, wonderful producers and brands.
Speaker: um And I believe we'll get there. There's some market share that has our name on it as a whiskey producing nation. That's exciting. um And we should all be really excited for that and and support our producing friends and brands as they grow and so and encourage them to know who they are.
Speaker: Know who they are Tell me about what defines your spirit. um Work on your brand. Work on how you communicate that so that you can, and not just how you communicate, but operationally, so that you can grow to a point where you can be part of ah of a bunch of Australian producers taking some global market share.
Speaker: That's exciting. That is. What a future to look forward to. Exciting. yeah wow You've got the juices flowing now. um Yeah, that is ah that's ah a tantalizing thought, would say, and probably a great place to finish.
Speaker: Look, i've got to say, Heather Tillett, that was such an absolute treat and a pleasure. speaking to you today. Thank you so much for coming the Full full Measure podcast. And we look forward to either being in Tasmania soon to try some of your delicious whiskey or, you know, in a venue or somewhere else around the world. So thank you so much again. Appreciate it. It's a pleasure. It's always a pleasure talking to you, my friend.
Speaker: Thank you. Cheers. The Full Measure podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. For all partnership inquiries, reach out to c Craig Williams, craig at thefullmeasure.com.au.
Speaker: To keep up to date with everything happening in Australian spirits, visit thefullmeasure.com.au and subscribe.
