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🌱 Ep 12. Strategies and Ecosystems for Fashion / Textile Startup Success with Brooke Roberts-Islam, Helene Steiner, Jim Ajioka
381 Plays5 months ago
This is the first in a series of 6 episodes in collaboration with Fashion District, who are creating a hub for fashion innovation in east London. They connect fashion, technology, business and education to provide an ecosystem of support for fashion and textile startups that includes innovation networks, affordable space, business support and investment.
In this episode, Jim Ajioka (Colorifix), Helene Steiner (OpenCell), and Brooke Roberts-Islam (Techstyler) share their unique journeys and insights about navigating the intersections of science, fashion, and innovation. They discuss the importance of interdisciplinary collaboration, the challenges of transitioning from different fields, the necessity of understanding your industry's demand, and the crucial role of marketing and customer discovery. The conversation also covers the significance of personal well-being for founders, highlighting self-care as a critical, yet often overlooked aspect of sustaining a startup. The episode wraps up with valuable insights into the resources and strategies that help startups thrive.
Brooke Roberts-Islam is the founder of Techstyler, a consultancy that focuses on providing intelligence to guide sustainability decision-making in the fashion and textile industries. She is also a senior sustainability contributor at Forbes, where she provides in-depth analysis and reporting on sustainable fashion initiatives. She is an award winning knitwear designer and has extensive experience in product development with various brands, including QASIMI, LVMH, and Solace London.
Helene Steiner is a design engineer that works at the intersection of technology and science. She co-founded Open Cell, providing affordable lab space for biotech startups. She has supported over 100 startups since 2018 and has a rich background in research at Microsoft and MIT Media Lab. She has received numerous awards and her work has been exhibited globally including at the Centre Pompidou, the Victoria and Albert Museum and the Museum of Applied Arts in Vienna.
Jim Ajioka is a Senior Lecturer at the University of Cambridge and along with Orr Yarkoni co-founded Colorifix, a startup revolutionizing textile dyeing with sustainable processes. The use microbes to produce, deposit and fix pigments on fabrics, eliminating the need for harmful chemicals and reducing water usage during dyeing. Colorifix has collaborated with major fashion brands like H&M, Pangaia, and Stella McCartney. They have raised a Series B round and is moving towards scaling up their solution.
Mili Tharakan: Linkedin I Survey
Other resources: Fashion District I Fashion for Good I The Hong Kong Research Institute of Textiles and Apparel Limited (HKRITA) I The Mills Fabrica I Steve Blank’s resources
Your support means the world to me! If you enjoyed this episode, consider buying me a coffee
Cover art: Photo by Siora, Photography on Unsplash I Music: Inspired Ambient, Orchestraman
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Transcript
Introduction to Fashion District Series
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, and welcome everyone to another episode of the No Ordinary Cloth Podcast. I'm your host, Millie Tarakin. Today, I'm thrilled to bring you a special series in collaboration with Fashion District, focusing on fashion and textile startups tackling some of the biggest challenges in the industry. While there are plenty of resources for tech and software startups, the fashion and textile industry presents unique challenges and need different set of input and insights. But there are very few resources or fewer accelerator programs catered to this community. Many startups in this field often come from non-fashion backgrounds, as you'll hear from some of our guests today, and struggle to navigate this new landscape. So this is where Fashion District comes in.
00:00:48
Speaker
They excel in supporting fashion and textile startups through programs like Manufacturing Futures and Evo Fashion, opening doors for these startups to brands, providing industry support, mentorship, and really building the ecosystem they need to thrive and grow their business. In the series, we will share insights, lessons, and stories from founders in the early stages of their startups, as well as industry experts and investors. They will draw the curtain back on the ins and outs of the fashion industry and how to survive there. You learn about the practicalities of running a startup, building your networks, strategies for success, investor insights, and a lot more.
Guest Introductions and Backgrounds
00:01:30
Speaker
To kick the series off, today we have not one, but three experts speaking to us. Brooke Roberts Islam, the founder of Textyla, Helena Steiner, the co-founder of Open Cell, and Jim Agioca, the co-founder of Color FX. The guests will be doing a short introduction at the start, but please do check out the show notes below for a more detailed bio about each of these speakers. They have really fascinating backgrounds and a wide range of experience. I would highly recommend that you read the bios below in the show notes.
Challenges in Fashion Startups
00:02:03
Speaker
Together, we dive into the challenges faced by textile and fashion startups and how to overcome them. They highlight highlight specific accelerators, competitions, and grants that you could be looking out for and offer practical advice on running a startup and maintaining a work-life balance. I know that sounds impossible when you're running a startup, but we talk about how important that is. They also share their personal journeys, emphasizing the importance of support systems and collaborations to really thrive and be successful in their career. This conversation is packed with insights and lessons you can apply to your business and life. So let's jump right in and hear what the guests have to share with us today.
00:02:45
Speaker
Thank you so much Jim, Elena and Brooke for being with us. I'd love for you to briefly introduce yourself and your background for our listeners today. Can we have Jim start us off? Okay. Um, so I'm Jim, I joke. I'm the chief science officer for color effects limited. We died textiles using a by completely biological process on my background before that was in sort of engineering biology at the university of Cambridge. Uh, in my lab, this, uh, we were developing colors in a previous project several years before we started color effects, but it became an obvious sort of application of those colors. And that's where we've gone to from there.
00:03:27
Speaker
Thank you. Helene. Hi, i I'm Helene. I'm the director of OpenCell and we make affordable labs, mostly in shipping containers because you can also send it in inconvenient locations and it's easier to set up than a building. My background is actually engineering and design. I had a quite diverse journey from my beginnings of my studies until now. So I guess that's also been my passion is to bring a lot of disciplines together. I love that. Thank you. And Brooke?
Interdisciplinary Skills in Fashion
00:03:59
Speaker
Hi there. I'm Brooke Roberts, Islam.
00:04:02
Speaker
I am a journalist, ah writer and consultant. I'm the founder of Textiler. I'm best known, though, as a senior sustainability contributor at Forbes, where I cover supply chains, innovation and new materials for the fashion and textiles industry mostly. A little similar to Helena, I have a mixed background. I started out my career in the medical field, actually. I was a cardiac radiographer in the NHS and then studied fashion design and began working in fashion and textile supply chains. And my role now is to communicate about the intersection between science, technology and fashion for business and mainstream audiences.
00:04:46
Speaker
Fantastic. You were with the NHS, then you went on to have your own knitwear collection and now you contribute ah with your writing. How did that transition happen and what were some of the early hurdles that you faced? Because it's two different worlds, isn't it? Yeah, it's two different worlds. But there's quite a lot of overlap, actually, because the the field I started out in, diagnostic radiography, is one that's based on radiation physics, but also on imaging, and how to capture ah images in digital form, actually. in in the last few decades. So I was fortunate to be working in an area of very rapid development in diagnostic imaging and interventional imaging, actually. So there's an increasing overlap between the diagnostic elements of imaging and also the intervention and surgery that take place under that guidance. So I was in what actually felt like a fairly creative realm of medicine, I would say.
00:05:46
Speaker
you know, sort of anchored in the ingenuity of Marie Curie. So I actually always felt like it was quite a dynamic area to work in, but I don't do well with constraint. I don't do well with sort of doing the same thing day in, day out. I'm in a very prescribed set of requirements. I'm a very entrepreneurial person um and I think as creative as I am technical. So I couldn't get all of that, pursue all of those ideas that I had within that career. And so I pursued a career in fashion through a degree at London College of Fashion.
00:06:25
Speaker
ah where I eventually graduated as a pattern maker. So a technical person within the sort of design and construction of garments. And then quite by accident after graduating, while still working in the and NHS, by the way, I continued to do that until about seven years ago. Wow, you were doing both. I was doing both. It was a juggling act. but But you know, actually, there's something that's very levelling about working in healthcare, and it's a very um fulfilling job to do, but also on a more practical level, it funded
00:07:00
Speaker
all the experimentation I was doing with the brand that I started out and it funded all of my factory trips, all of my R and&D. So, you know, there there was a pragmatic reason for it as well, a practical reason. So, Yeah, I think, you know, there's a lot of people similar to me and maybe even Jim and Elena would consider themselves in this group of people who are entrepreneurial and creative yet also technical and sort of underneath it all quite rational, pragmatic people. So I think, you know, historically it's been difficult within the sort of pathways of higher education to find roles that allow people
00:07:41
Speaker
you know, with those sensibilities to fulfill those, you know, those abilities. And I've just designed my careers to let me do that, I suppose you could say. I've run ways over many years to be able to do the things that I enjoy and that I'm able to do and try to find a niche for myself where I'm doing things that other people either can't or won't do. I very much enjoy being able to um share technical and scientific concepts through applied means, you know reporting on.
00:08:16
Speaker
new chemistry or new drivers and being able to do that in a way that is accessible is really important and it's something i i I love those topics. So I guess it's not really by design that I've kind of gone through all these different things but in each of them there were things I enjoyed and I think I've
Environmental Science Meets Fashion
00:08:39
Speaker
now arrived at the intersection that suits me best. I would Fantastic. And I think like you said, Jim and Elena will probably, there'll be a sort of similar thread in their story as well. But Jim, with you next. I mean, how does a biologist testing contamination in water in Nepal end up at like fashion shows and dyeing dresses for Stella McCartney? It's just very different worlds. What are some of the challenges that you faced and what are you enjoying about this new industry that you've entered into of fashion and textiles?
00:09:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's probably useful to tell people that my original my PhD was in ecology and evolution So, you know having an idea of what is going on on earth, you know how plants and animals and other microbes form communities all these sorts of things matter because it gives you a perspective on how Life itself is going to be affected by things like global warming. So these are problems that have been constantly in my mind over the past 40 years. So it's not something new. But my attention span for research is about 10 to 12 years, which is, you know, not that's kind of short, actually. So, you know, I start out with ecology and evolution, and I sort of move into a technical way of looking at some of the those those processes, which is genomics, and then moving there into being able to use that kind of
00:10:09
Speaker
scale-up technology to think about how you could engineer biology and there you can start to address directly questions with engineering. okay So we can build things like and know a biosensor for arsenic, which is a medical problem. Again, there are similarities with Brooke's evolution through her career because Again, you know, medical problems and and the way you approach them can give you real perspective on the things that we're doing now. And so a lot of the things that we we're doing for engineering the the arsenic biosensor, including color, was part of that process and the technologies that you use to build microbes from DNA into something that will give you color or some other property that ah you want out of the microorganism.
00:10:59
Speaker
or organism and generally you can do this for lots of different things. And so from there, it was just finding out really what the other problems were because arsenic is a geological problem. It's not one that's man-made. It's just the fact that the arsenic in the groundwater is just simply because the groundwater is in a geological formation for it. There's lots of arsenic. So when the back in the 80s and 90s when they're drilling a lot of shallow tube wells in Nepal and Bangladesh, North India to get pathogen-free water,
00:11:31
Speaker
They unfortunately hit aquifers that are just laden with arsenic. So you either die quickly from an acute disease or you die slowly by poisoning yourself to death. And neither is a very good outcome. know And working in the Department of Pathology and teaching microbiology and parasitology, you know You know what the choices are, and and they're they're very stark and unfortunately very different. So it's not easy to make the choice of how you're going to handle things. Simply, can we get clean water? From there, you know it wasn't a big stretch to go to um Bangladesh and to Nepal and in Kathmandu where they do lots of textile work and ask yourself why the water is so bad in these areas because it's not about arsenic in these places.
00:12:18
Speaker
But it's more about what the industries around them are doing. So it goes from a geological natural problem to one that's completely manmade. This is where Warren, I started to think this is not great and there we could probably apply. what we know to a problem that is actually pretty damaging to the environment. And unfortunately, it's only getting worse because everyone has to work close. So you're talking about a global problem, not one that's ah kind of specific to mountainous areas. So that's kind of where we where would came from and where we ended up.
00:12:52
Speaker
And how has your experience been in the in the fashion world in just trying to navigate through this space? Yeah, the the fashion world is great. So, you know, this is this is really kind of one of these not awful stories, but it it's kind of it's almost cliche. you know So I am and in Cambridge and I'm at the University of Cambridge and I belong to a college and The great thing about belonging to a college is not all about fancy dinners and stuff because you teach students. That's the main reason you're there. But you also have colleagues from all sorts of different disciplines that are really interesting. So we we're trying to, Oren and I are trying to get into some of these accelerator programs and we weren't having a lot of luck because nobody really got what we were trying to do. So a friend of mine, we're trying to get into the Fashion for Good accelerator program.
00:13:44
Speaker
and weren't doing very well. But then I was telling this friend of mine in college, it was, oh, my wife, she works in the fashion industry. We made a call and two days later we were in. So yeah, it's kind of the good old boy network, which is not something you really feel good about, but it is kind of the way parts of the world work. but Everyone has had that experience at different levels. But so that was kind of one of the major segues into the fashion industry. You know, so Orr is really good at pitching. And so when, you know, the guy that was funding this fashion for a good round, he was just completely bored by it all these things, right? But once you show color, people get really interested. It captures everybody's imagination. Everybody sees it. When Orr started talking about color, the guy started paying attention. He started, you know, stop playing with his kid and yeah getting up to get cups of tea. And at the end of, he stood up and applauded. And at that point,
00:14:41
Speaker
we have a pretty good chance of getting onto the program. so And then that's where you make, again, more connections because it's about networking. So, you know, we got introduced to Stella McCartney's people and we got a project with her and that was intended
Building Innovative Spaces for Startups
00:14:56
Speaker
to go into the VNA exhibition of fashion from nature. And that was our first really good exposure to the fashion world. And Elena, like I mentioned earlier, you have been supporting over a hundred biotech startups yourself. But what were some of the challenges that you faced when you first set up open cell as a startup? And also what were some of the hurdles that you faced? Cause you went from doing really fascinating research about plant human communication to creating these modular test labs during COVID. And so what was that transition like for yourself?
00:15:33
Speaker
I guess one really a let led a little bit to the other. When I was still in industrial research, I think you do really fantastic projects. like you know we We did smart clothing, smart textiles, etc. But why I left academia is because a lot of those projects don't make the next step. But they were always really close. And um I wanted to see one of my work actually getting a reality or at least see if I can make it a reality. And that was for me the pivot point when I went to into industry or I had my first on startup. The first one actually didn't work out. So the second one, what I actually realized is that the challenge is that there is no
00:16:22
Speaker
place really to go to if you're a little bit and you know out of the common you can't really go or at least at that stage there was no place where you can go where you can make a bacteria coating for a tank bow and all these kind of like wild ideas which are all really in truly interdisciplinary like the volume of Jim and many projects Brooke is also working on So I guess the second startup was then focused on the challenge and often you know startups are all about solving a challenge or solving a problem. And the solution was that we wanted to provide you know um affordable laboratories for those early stage companies that nowhere else can to go.
00:17:05
Speaker
and out of the need that we had ourselves really open so kind of started out. Challenges are then, where do you go? Where do you make a project that in essence is really large scale? If it is infrastructure, you need quite a lot of grounds to actually build it on. And also often that is really attached to a lot of capital expenditures. It's a lot of costs. And usually buildings are all about long-term decision making. So I guess what we again then kind of decided on is the best way is always to make a first prototype and test out if it actually works what you think your solution is. And there we were really lucky to work closely actually with the council. So very early on, like for us, it was like, how can we bring in all the different people that will be part in in the solution and how can we work with them together? That was the council of Hammersmith and Fulham.
00:18:01
Speaker
It was also universities where the students and people come out who actually found them, those companies to understand what the needs are and the challenges are of the laboratories. And what we actually did is we and found a place for this called like Meanwhile Space ah to explain that those are all these kind of large development sites where your planning approval takes five, 10 years. and during that time nothing happens there. So what we actually did is as a solution there um we kind of had a partnership with the council to say that why do we not ah use that actually as a test bed for how level service could look like to bring startups in the area and to give actually a foundation there but ultimately it's also good for the area because it creates jobs companies etc.
00:18:50
Speaker
So in the end, always the problem helped us to move forward to find a better solution. And I think there was always throughout um open cell kind of like the the moment, we always stayed very flexible and reactive, and always tried to bring people in as early as possible to work with us together. And It is very similar than to all of the companies that were with us. It is a constant battle of, I guess, like evolution and finding a solution, all of the constraints that surround you. And they were all similar constraints that we had, and that is time and money. And I think that is often resolved by collaborating with people.
00:19:32
Speaker
I mean, it's fascinating that all of your journeys is about this cross-disciplinary collaboration and how important that is, whether that you you move around, you know, into different disciplines yourself or you bring in people. I mean, that was really the inspiration for starting this podcast itself is to highlight, you know, how important that is for innovation and creativity to really thrive. Each of you are such inspiring testament to the power of that interdisciplinary collaboration. Now to dive a little deeper into the journey of a startup itself, and maybe that means now zooming out a bit more from your experience with your own startup to what some of the challenges are that you've seen, ah some of the biggest challenges that textile fashion and other startups face in and bringing innovative concepts to market.
Key Challenges and Solutions in Startups
00:20:20
Speaker
I think you've touched upon some of this, but if you could highlight some of the key challenges that you see, where's that gap? Jim, would you like to start us off?
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose I can. Although this will be somewhat of a personal view rather than one that's completely global. But I think when you're trying to get anything that you're doing, you need to recognize that there unless you are already in the industry, and that would be a little bit odd if you're being an entrepreneur to understand what that industry actually demands. What what is it that they need you know from Helene's experience? Yeah, you just see it because you're kind of in it, right? But for us, it was a little bit different because we're trying to get into an industry where we had no idea how it worked. So the first thing is that you need to have connections where it you know you have some way of getting into the the industry that you're trying to do something in and actually understand it.
00:21:14
Speaker
After that, you do need space to do your work. yeah I had an academic lab, so it wasn't that bad. I could just kind of cheat on the weekends and and do a few you know experiments you know outside the norm. But by and large, I had all the all the equipment, all the reagents and stuff. So it wasn't completely divorced from what we're normally doing in the lab anyway. So you know we could get started in ways that most you know sort of entrepreneurial people can't because we had space already. But then going outside that is the next step. So then you have to go, where can I get lab space? Where can I you know do the experiments that are going to be necessary to get funding? okay Funding is a big issue, obviously. you know For us in the beginning, it was all just because I could do it off the back of my lab work for my academic lab. But after that, then you realize you're going to have to get space and get money in. And you have to do enough experimentation
00:22:13
Speaker
And enough results to convince somebody that what you're doing might have commercial, might be able to make ah make a company out of it and make money, is then trying to do those experiments. and And that's where people like Helene, it's like, great, we can go to a container, do enough experiments to to to get ah some preliminary data together so we can put together a pitch that makes sense. And then getting in front of the right people to pitch to, that's another thing. In Cambridge, it's not too bad because loads of people around, loads of funds around that people want to you know give you money. The university itself is, you know, Cambridge Enterprise is quite engaging. So it's a little bit easier for someone like me to sort of start out in that way. But once you get going, then it's all about scaling. That's another scary
00:23:02
Speaker
journey that we're still not completely done with. I don't know. I mean, I think I probably should just hand it over to other people to have a problem. Spinning out a startup from within a university does have its advantages, as you pointed out, such as lab spaces, initial funding from the university. But as you mentioned, there there's still so many other things you have to worry about, and the big one being convincing someone you have a viable business and getting them to invest. Brooke, what hurdles did you encounter and how did you overcome them? Like Helene mentioned, same for me. My first startup bombed um and I've had a couple of businesses since then that I've not pursued either.
00:23:46
Speaker
and chosen to to close down. So yeah, I feel like I've been on the startup journey a number of times actually, but there's something like, you know, my subjective input here again, obviously, but there's something that has been common to each of those experiences, whether it was my first brand that I started up or whether it was my materials development agency, which came later. And that was that everything that I did built up on relationships that I had established through some sort of connection. So my first job upon graduating from London College of Fashion, whilst I was still a radiographer, was to work as a patent maker for a designer producing materials and products in a factory in Italy. And because of my technical skills,
00:24:38
Speaker
I was sent to the factory to develop the materials and products alongside of the experts there and the engineers there and I took to that role very well you know it interested me hugely and I made it my business to make their job easier so that our product and our materials would be better and so in a way what I was doing was establishing myself as somebody who was a good person to work with and who was, I guess, ah innovative in my approach to work and who then down the line a few years later started up a brand and then worked with them as my first factory partner. And also in establishing my career and working closely with them and learning a lot, I was then able to use that knowledge to create consultancy opportunities for myself where I would go out and consult for brands using this very specialist knowledge that the factory had kindly bestowed on me, but then doing that in a way to bring business back to that factory. So everything I feel like one way or another within my careers and all of the different businesses I've had
00:25:49
Speaker
has been a case of building upon initial opportunities, finding ways of developing good relationships, and then making sure that the work I did benefited those people and myself. This is just a philosophy that I have in general in all the work I do is that I try to identify what I'm doing and what it means to me and what it means to the other people who are working with me to try to understand things from everyone's point of view and make sure everybody's getting to where they need to go because I think that's the foundation of any relation business relationships
00:26:27
Speaker
And it's a fair and equitable way of operating, um I believe. So that's, I think, what's carried me through all of my startup journeys. And wherever that hasn't borne out is probably with problems of a reason, to be honest. So where I'm trying to develop and launch a product, where I don't have the knowledge, or where I can't find the right factory to support me in that development, or who I can't give enough to in exchange for what they're giving to me. You know, it's almost like a sort of natural balance in that sense. So I guess that's a guide for me and I think yeah maintaining that
00:27:07
Speaker
is what matters to me most and having the kind of business relationships in place where they're mutually beneficial, where I've found that I've tended to thrive um and to just kind of comment on the startup trajectory that I felt. So when I launched my my brand, my first business in 2000, it was around 2010, I guess, I launched my Netware brand with the support of the factory I mentioned. I had a lot of challenges in getting my product to market because I knew my product. I knew the technology inside out. I didn't know marketing and I didn't know PR and I didn't place enough value on that as a discipline. And I also didn't have the funding in place or the revenue in place from enough sales to be able to invest
00:28:01
Speaker
in PR and marketing. And I think ultimately that was one of the main reasons why despite being in great boutiques like Browns and great online stores, I wasn't able to grow my business enough to sustain itself and to fund all of the different necessary um elements outside of the materials and the products themselves. I somehow naively thought because it was a great product that was getting sort of, you know, that, that was having good things said about it and was but places I thought that would be enough, but absolutely not the case. Yeah. And I guess sort of learning those things and then adapting and working out the skills that I have that are the strongest and that are my USP and then channeling those into the next business is how I've, how I've evolved.
00:28:50
Speaker
I hear you there Brooke because I mean again with the startup that I was a part of we had a similar experience we spend so much time developing the product we were all breaking our heads over the product and when we thought we'd we put it out in the world that they'll just want it and And nobody knew it existed because we just weren't thinking about the marketing side early enough in the journey.
The Role of Marketing and PR
00:29:11
Speaker
We thought, if we put it out there, someone's going to find it and buy it. And that was not the case. It took a lot of work. In fact, that was the harder part was to try and let people know what the product is, what it does. So that's, a lot of us, especially when we're makers, like fashion and textile, we're makers. We, we focus on the product and we forget the other half of the equation and to make a business, which is the customer. Yeah. I think this is particularly relevant for this discussion and when if we're discussing the new application of existing research or research that happens to have some overlap, what like what Jim was describing, because honestly in the scientific realm and in the medical realm, the merit comes from the proof
00:29:56
Speaker
the evidence that something works. And that really is the aim. That is the holy grail. Whereas these industries, these consumer goods industries are very different. That is not actually the aim. The aim is the sort of the salability of however that solution is being applied. And I think that for some of us who are from more of a sort of technical or scientific background, we mistakenly think that we've got it, we've only got part of it. And it's one of the reasons why during the development day that Ellen, Jim and I recently all took part in,
00:30:33
Speaker
I think that was one of the things that we were all at pains to to repeat and that is that you really need to understand the product market fit, you need to understand the customer and the really sort of soft almost intangible mechanics between people in the supply chain, which is actually an ecosystem that's sort of grounded in irrational human psychology. So I think that as long as we remember that, then we set ourselves up for putting ourselves in other people's position and working out what their decision making tree is and um seeing what we need to do in response.
00:31:14
Speaker
You're spot on Brooke, understanding the intangible mechanics between people and the supply chain as you described is so critical and you need to learn to navigate this and put yourself in other people's shoes. It also goes back to building those relationships that you spoke about earlier. Helena, what's been your experience? I guess from my perspective to say of what I found daunting when what but I had to realize in the beginning is that there is no instruction manual for your journey that you will have with your company. There is nobody and nothing that tells you if there's something right or wrong that you do. There is no right and wrong in general.
00:31:57
Speaker
And what I had to realize is that it was about like getting on with it and not being afraid to make mistakes. There will be so many mistakes you will make along the way. But in the end, it's really not a sprint. It's more like a marathon. And it's about learning from it, saying, okay, I suck it up. I did it wrong. But then now I also move on and improve on it. And I guess like what if, if, if I would do it again as well, my attitude would be to really make a first proof of concept, not always wait too long until it's perfect until you think it is perfect. Get it out there, you know, get as early as possible feedback from the different people, see where it works, where it doesn't work.
00:32:39
Speaker
And what it also does will make you do is that you actually start talking about it. And what I see so often and I did myself is how over complicated I told the story of what it is on one hand because I wanted to make it sound better than it is. And on the other hand, because I actually haven't figured out exactly what it is, what I'm doing. And I think in your communication and in Brooke already talked about marketing is such an important one to connect to people, but it also shows that you understand the your opposite, your client, your market. So it comes back to the market, product fit, et cetera. And it's a process. There is not kind of like the bond, it's perfect. And then I move on. It's constantly having to put yourself out there.
00:33:24
Speaker
and to improve every time a little bit more. I think that is one key thing that I took away from my journey as well. Absolutely, yeah. That actually takes us so nicely into our next question. Steve Blank, considered the father of lean startup model, has mentored over hundreds of startups, mainly in the Silicon Valley. And what he's observed is that startups often fail not because they lack product, but because they lack customers and a profitable business model. And I had this written and stuck on a poster in front of me after my experience with that that previous startup when I realized that is so key. You have to have your customers and your business model and you need to build that up, not at the end, but alongside your product.
00:34:10
Speaker
How do startups go about discovering and figuring out who their real customers are and building that customer base? you know Especially if you're dealing with large brands and manufacturers who might be sat somewhere else in the world, what are some strategies that you can use to to reach out to these customers to test your idea and to pitch your product to them? We're probably a reasonable example of this because Oren and I didn't know anything about the fashion industry or anything. But in that realization, you go, well, we got it, you know, we don't know, but we got to hire somebody that does know. Okay. yeah So one of the first three hires that we had was was that was our business development lead, really saw, okay, he has worked in the in the that in between part between the mill and the dye house and and the
00:35:01
Speaker
and the brands. So he knew how the the ecology of that system worked. And if you don't, you're never going to crack into it. And so I would say the first thing is if you don't know, have the humility to realize you don't know, and then get somebody in that does, because it will also direct what you think your business model is going to be Because Oren and I in the beginning thought, ah, we'll just go in there and be like you know some chemical company and just make yeah biological dyes and you know put you know fermenters and in dye houses and everything to be happy. Well, first you realize that you're attacking a commodity chemicals market, where unless your market's going to be you know really tight, you're you're never going to make money. okay So you've got to think, well,
00:35:42
Speaker
We've got to adjust our business model a bit, because there will be a point at which we can tip over into being completely cost competitive with the chemical industry. But we're not quite there. We're pretty close in Europe. Asia still will take some work. But that's mostly a scaling issue. But you need to know where you're going to make money. And so part of this is going, OK, well, we've got to have some kind of licensing model where we can get money from somebody that has deeper pockets than the Dye House, because Dye House is their commodity chemicals, their margins are really thin. So you go, okay, we'll, we'll, we'll, you know, work with a mill and then charge some, you know, money amount for per meter of fabric that they process. Okay. So then we can make money on that. Also, after we convinced everyone, including our investors that we needed to make hardware, then that's another revenue stream. Okay. So for the hardware, it's kind of a inkjet printer and and inkjet
00:36:42
Speaker
model where you we make a machine at a reasonable price, don't gouge our customers, which are the mills or die houses, and then continuously sell the media. okay Because you know if you're going to make a product, it has to use the same environment all the time, which includes the machinery that you're fermenting in. And so doing that, you're fixing a different part of the market. for making, well, essentially for making money. So when you have a business model where you're attacking something really big, like, you know, chemical dying industry, you really have to be creative in the way that you think you're going to make money. And now we have other business, you know, models also look at your unit economics, because if they don't work, then you're really in trouble. So, you know, when we look at things like printing,
00:37:30
Speaker
Our unit economics are much better than whole peace dying because you use less, you get more bang for your buck. Okay. So that's something that, you know, we, we kind of realize at a certain point and going, okay, well, we're going to now invest more, much more of our effort into trying to try and understand how we're going to put printing together. And so it changed your, your business model is always continuously changing, but you better have some idea of what you're doing and think that you're going to be able to make money out of it, you know, and, We thought we could just becoming a chemicals that you you just realized that was complete. That's complete nonsense. And you only really find that out when you go into your space, isn't it? And meet potential customers. Otherwise sitting in your lab, you would have never really figured that out. No, no, that's why you really you got to be, you have to have humility and realize what you don't know. And that was one of my main messages in giving, giving talks now is like, you know, be humble. Really valuable. Yeah. And Brooke.
00:38:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think um going back to the Steve Blank context that you offered, I think there's something important for all startups to consider ah at this sort of early juncture. And that's, what am I proposing? Am I a disruptor, like what Jim was describing, where I almost need to teach the industry about this entire new approach to something that's an incumbent sector that's been operating as it has been forever. It's the only thing, the only way anyone knows. Or am I proposing something that's relatively frictionless, that's an optimization, that isn't something completely new and disruptive, and therefore, what's my approach? Because I think in any case,
00:39:12
Speaker
You're going to have a different strategy and a different approach, but you need to understand what you're proposing and what that means for the sector. What are the relationships at play between all the stakeholders? What are their vested interests? What's their agenda? And what does my business mean for them? What's beneficial to them about what I'm doing? What's not beneficial? How could this be a threat to them? You know, what's the value add for each of the stakeholders at play? So I think it almost requires a mapping exercise and a sort of piece of analysis to really look at yourself from the outside from all the relevant stakeholders perspective so that you can head things off at the past. I mean, I don't really believe in the idea of there being a lack of customers or the absence of a profitable model. I just believe in an absence of analysis to arrive at those things.
00:40:07
Speaker
Because you're either you're either like what Jim said, you've got a solution that can be applied in a novel way to do things better. That's a meaning in a more environmentally friendly way and eventually a more cost effective way. So it's the business is there for the taking. It's just how do you frame it? How do you propose it? How do you take it to market? So and then I think the flip side of what I just described there with Jim is where maybe it is someone from the industry or ah related technology that already operates.
00:40:42
Speaker
a kind of a very clear and obvious optimization opportunity where it's a drop in and you already know how the industry works, ah you're inside it. It's just a matter of leveraging that to, you know, implement your alternative to the incumbents. So this to me is, is an analysis piece and a kind of, it is based on humility. It's based on objectivity. based on sort of stepping outside of where you are as a startup and looking yourself from the outside in, in order to plan your customers and your your model, plan and adapt.
00:41:21
Speaker
plan adapt and adapt. I like that. If you'd like to learn more about the four market types that Steve Blank talks about, do check out his book, Four Steps to the epi Epiphany. But of course, there's lots of other resources online referring to this. It's really helpful for startups to understand what kind of a startup they are and what market type they're entering into. And Elena? it's an It's a tricky one because in the end, ah business is all about making it financially work and know there' also you know the big vision there and the positive impact and that you can have. But in the end, it's about finances. And I think it's the most daunting thing to many people.
00:42:00
Speaker
And like I guess when you come with your big vision into the room and say like, this is not how we do it, and I guess that's very challenging. It will never happen. So I think there is again, um how I always approach this is looking into What can I do and what can I sell right now? What is the early stage customer I can build up? And I think it is important from the beginning on to put a price on your product and your service. If it is free, people actually don't value it.
00:42:34
Speaker
And so I think as Jim said, it is kind of like involved in this business model. And I think it's really something it has to be there in the beginning. You can have your big vision, you know, far away where you work towards, which is also important. But I think, you know, also be a realistic on start right now. Okay, what can I do immediately and go from there? Because again, there's also testing out what works, what doesn't work as well. And then I guess there for me, what I learned as well, what I underestimated in the beginning, it's not only the business plan, but it's also kind of like the day to day finances.
00:43:09
Speaker
I would start to kind of like look at early on, you know, you have your employees, you have cash flows, you have your reagents, your capital expenditures. If you actually are quite smart with that, you can go quite a few miles longer and have more freedom yourself to be actually active and dynamic. Yeah, I would say if it is a daunting one, you know, go right for it and try to tackle it because it is a make or break situation in the end. Absolutely. Sometimes the big vision can be so daunting and I like your suggestion on focusing on what you can do today and who you can reach today. That's really practical and doable. Could you now highlight some of the most valuable maybe accelerator programs or competitions, grants, yeah ecosystems that are available for startups to tap into?
00:44:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think there were, for us, we had two things that we really needed kind of, it's not exactly help, but get get introduced into into the system. One was kind of the engineering biology end. So we did a competition called Biostart. And that was really useful because although we didn't win, we did get the second prize, which was help on getting lab space. And that was really critical because we got, again, months matter in these cases. So if you can save money for you know for free, then you're doing well. And so we got essentially free money to fund our first lab space in in Norwich.
00:44:42
Speaker
The other thing is you know getting into the industry side of it. So we did the fashion for good accelerator and that was really helpful because there you get introduced to lots of different people and and brands and things within the industry that you'd never have access to if you were just trying to you know go hang your shingle out outside your building or whatever that's not going to work. So you know getting the network and going from that perspective was really important. So I'd say those two things as far as accelerator programs or you know that sort of thing were really key for us. I think there's a couple of different approaches here because there are ways to kind of accelerate your business or incubate your business within grants which um
00:45:27
Speaker
we're in which are an option in some cases. ah We took Horizon 2020 funding for our materials innovation agency, which was helpful in some respects, but also somewhat burdensome. So, you know, with the sort of administration of it. So I think it depends on what your goals are and what you're aiming for and what stage you're at. that kind of funding can be helpful. I think from an external perspective, I have a lot of communication with Fashion for Good. And I know a lot about their programs, I write about their programs, and I sometimes cover the research that they do. So I would second Jim in recommending Fashion for Good. And then lastly, there are some very good support programs through Fashion District, which is what brought Elaine and Jim and I together recently for the Development Day.
00:46:18
Speaker
And they're running an Evo fashion accelerator program, which is actually open for applications now. It starts in a month or so. And that's for fashion technology and materials startups. Okay. So I think keeping an iron fashion district is a good one because they provide support, prize money, access to investors and access to experts like Helen and Jim the recent development day. So that would be my, they're all UK based, I realised. Oh, the other one, sorry, would be in terms of connecting to academic institutions with potential opportunities to do combined research and industrial facing projects would be HK Rita, Hong Kong Rita and the team there led by Edwin Kay, which is a fantastic institution and he's a fantastic person as well.
00:47:10
Speaker
um They're connected to the H and&M Foundation as well, I believe. Yeah, they'd be more shocked. Is fashion for good a UK-based one? Can companies from around the world apply for that? Absolutely. Brilliant. Elina, would you have any recommendations? I guess I would always kind of step there for a second and think about why each individual kind of, why am I writer by at at this moment choosing an accelerator and picking a little bit based on that. So and if it is for fashion, as we heard from Brooke and Jimmy, fashion for good is great because it comes with the network, the knowledge there. But then in other cases,
00:47:49
Speaker
You might also want to use it because you want to move to a different country in a different market, let's say the US, because your product is better, your company is better placed there. Or if it is out of fashion, you know, you said it gets more hardware focused and you know, manufacturing hardware is really challenging. So I would kind of like look into why do I want to or why do I need the accelerator and then look for the right ones. so I don't think there's a holy grail, but besides fashion for good, I think the whole and indie bio crew crowd is also really nice. They have hex
00:48:25
Speaker
but it's more hardware focused and they have ah you know great connections there to Shenzhen, so you're really embedded into how could they actually produce it, but they also have you know great like life science accelerators. And then they actually started to do as well, kind of collaborative ones between hardware and life science, which also often kind of solves the challenge. I think one thing that the Accelerator also sometimes provides you and helps to resolve a problem, coming back to kind of the early, early beginning, might give you the space you need to get actually to your proof of concept, which many companies can't afford. So that could be also a reason why you want to join maybe a life science one, because they actually have really great labs, which you can use with access to machinery, you cannot afford in the beginning. and
00:49:14
Speaker
and brooke Do you want to add there? Yes, I mistakenly ah forgot to mention the Mill's Fabrica in London sin and Hong Kong. And I see Jim and Helene in London as well. Yeah, so that's for you know incubation, acceleration, and also ultimately investment to in the fashion and supply chain space. They're a great one. I mean, you hear of so many of these programs for the tech world and hardware and software, um but so few for the fashion and textiles world. So I'm really glad you you gave these recommendations. And yeah, again, a shout out to fashion district. I think what they're doing is incredible and really valuable for startups, especially the ones here in the UK.
Maintaining Work-Life Balance
00:49:56
Speaker
On a slightly different note, um the startup journey can be incredibly demanding with lots of blood sweat and tears and I'm sure you've all been there, often leading to burnout, ah poor decision making and a toll on your mental and physical health. And I feel there's plenty of advice on finances and pitching and fundraising. I believe guidance on self-care maybe is often overlooked. As founders, um what are some of the challenges you you've faced in this space and how have you managed to keep that balance or at some point find that balance during those grueling early days of your startup? Balance? What's balance?
00:50:37
Speaker
I'm not entirely joking either. I think being ah an academic scientist, you don't have a balanced life anyway. So for me, it was not a lot of change because even though technically I have a zillion weeks off per year because I don't technically have to be here as you know for my university teaching post, running a lab is a 24-7-3-6-5 job. And so you don't stop doing it. So it wasn't a huge kind of personal change. But what I think you need to be cognizant of is everybody isn't like you. This is not all about you. okay And in the beginning, it can be really, and I think somebody at the at the you know program that we were at you know a couple of weeks ago were saying, or you can't really, at the beginning, you have to be type A. You have to be the get get stuff done like all the time.
00:51:29
Speaker
But after that, you've got to stop being that way and realize that this isn't all about you because it's about the people that you work with. And you do have to develop a culture where there is something of a work-life balance for people that are not the founders, not the people that are heavily invested into as much as you are. I mean, people in colorifics are really invested because they think what we do is cool and has a reason to exist. I look after students that have done for 40 years. So ah you learn that there are tipping points for people and what they're, you know, students, again, are people that are kind of 24 seven because they have to be at least in Cambridge. But you do have to realize that they will break if you push them too hard.
00:52:17
Speaker
Part of it is trying to get them to understand that, yes, you do have to have a work-life balance, but also that to make your work-life, the working part of your life better, you have to be happy and you have to be having fun at what you're doing. Because if you don't have a reason to get up in the morning, you're not going to be having fun and therefore work will be a much bigger drag on your life in general and otherwise be. having a happy workplace matters and getting people to have have fun at what they do. Colorific is not too bad to get it in the morning and go, ooh, I made a new color. That's really cool. So you have that advantage because you have something that is really tangible, turns over really quickly too. So you're always constantly getting new input. But yeah, for company, its it's ah it's not all about the founders. It's about you better keep that in mind if you want to keep a company going after you have founded it.
00:53:08
Speaker
That's a really important message there. It's not all about you. And as I found it, it's often so easy to forget that. Thanks, Jim. Brooke, how have you managed this balance? Yeah I mean this is a really weirdly it feels like this is a new topic somehow like I think that historically working really hard and working too much in western culture has been a sort of badge of honor and I feel like now the the ideas around that are starting to shift which is I mean an example is you asking that question you know I've spoken a lot about entrepreneurship over the years and I
00:53:47
Speaker
you know I've only really started to hear about this idea of overwork, burnout and lost productivity due to burnout you know in the last few years. um And I have to say, I think my views on this are subjective. I'm neurodivergent. So I have different ways of dealing with information compared to most people. um So I know, for example, I am more prone to burnout and I'm also prone to hyperfocus and sort of obsessive research and things like that. So personally, I have to remember that not everyone is like that.
00:54:26
Speaker
And my expectations are not everybody's expectations. um And that I, I guess, just need to be very aware that this is ah almost a delicate ecosystem that we work within and it's all relationship based. understanding and meeting people at where they're at is the name of the game. And if somebody says, do you know what, I know this was the plan, but actually I'm so burnt out right now, we're going to have to reorganise. I think we need to be able to realise that that is an okay thing. As long as we all know where we stand and we all know what each other's limits are and we respect those,
00:55:08
Speaker
I think we're in better shape and a little more simply I would say one of the things that I lean on mentally is that I'm not saving lives or at least no longer helping save lives. so Things can wait. I could probably chill out a little bit so just keeping that bit of perspective and one other little thing in ah in recent years as well in my my husband who was bit fed up of my years of being a workaholic that you must get a hobby. You have to do something other than work, please. I'm begging. And, you know, I have ah had a passion for horse riding my whole life. I had a break from it. I went back to it. I'm a better person. I think some having some sort of outlet outside
00:55:53
Speaker
professional work can just make you a more balanced human being and can sort of build in some very valuable detached time where you can process and rethink things. I've very often taken my break for that and then come back from it with totally new solutions to existing So um I am not a believer in the sort of quantity of work. I'm a believer in the quality of it and allowing people their way of arriving at that quality rather than sort of dictating or expecting everyone to do the same. So yeah, I'd say they're my my overarching thought. Helena? I mean, it's a tricky situation. Or if you think about it, you're like super passionate about a topic.
00:56:42
Speaker
you probably put all of your money into this one project, haven't slept probably since a few weeks or not have had um a weekend. and And then, you know, there might be a moment where a project falls through, what was your lifeline to continue? And then maybe, you know, you have a little bit of an argument with somebody and you don't react how you would actually react. So you kind of like have this snorkel effect and that's verse and verse. And then everybody has an opinion around you. And I found it incredible hard and I couldn't hear myself think anymore. And in the end, I got more hectic and made more mistakes. And I, luckily, had a colleague who pulls me out in those moments. And the best thing is to take a break, to go for a walk, go for a weekend, and then come back as a real person again to prevent that.
00:57:35
Speaker
But I think one mistake that I made, for example, for many years is because I put, I guess, all my passion in there. I kind of like started to surround he myself purely with people that are work-related and neglected a little bit my friendship that have nothing to do with what I do work-wise. But those were actually the healthiest relationships because if you then go out for for a pint, or something to eat, you you know you talk about different topics and it already starts clearing your mind because you get a little bit calmer, you see like, oh, the world doesn't actually end if I'm not at work or if I'm not progressing or if I'm not doing at all what I'm doing. So I think my advice would be really to
00:58:19
Speaker
maintain and not neglect you know family and friends outside of work because in the end they will be the absolute support system to kind of help you to run that marathon. If things go wrong you can be honest and I learned one thing that is not good to share have with colleagues if everything goes wrong it just adds to the stress as well. yeah
00:58:43
Speaker
yeah that's I mean, all three of you, I think, have pointed out some really important points there. And the reason I asked that question is because I hit that point where I was completely burnt out. And it took me a year to recover and realize how foggy my thoughts were, how poorly I was making decisions and everything that you said, you know. And I wish I had someone telling me to think about this as well as all the other 10 things that you have to think about when you're building a startup. So this brings us sadly to our last question. This one I just flew by. um So I guess the last one would be, ah any ah books are or knowledge platforms, communities, podcasts, anything that you can share, resources that have greatly helped you or that you would recommend to ah startups and our listeners?
Recommended Resources and Key Takeaways
00:59:28
Speaker
ah I've got a few. One is a recent book ah written by a good friend of mine actually called Dr. Camilla Pang and it's called Breakthrough um and she she's got a PhD in biochemistry and she works in bioinformatics now but she is somebody who talks about the scientific process as a creative process and how it can be leveraged for problem solving. And she's autistic and has ADHD. So she's got a very creative way of looking at at the sort of the scientific world, but also creative problem solving. So I find that really fascinating any anyone, whether or not you're neurodivergent. And then when it comes to podcasts, I think any podcast that is about your passion, I love listening to podcasts about Josh.
01:00:17
Speaker
gosh I was just like, I get a minute. Because they're nothing to do with work. So, i would you know, of course, I could mention some of the more professional ones that I listen to. But I think that those ones that are about your passion or something obscure or about learning how something works that's not related to your actual job, I think are very freeing, very liberating liberating and kind of um can sometimes open up new ways of thinking about your work. indirectly. So I'd say the ones about your passion, find time for those. The work ones will find you. Yeah, I would kind of echo what Brooke just said. But for me, maybe just because I'm all reading things that have okay, so one of the one of the things I like to read is sort of a secret is that I like to read haiku. So there's a person called Basho, I've a compendium of his work. But
01:01:16
Speaker
I would recommend people read or look or listen to things that, again, are not directly to do with their work, but to do with mental health or potentially their mental health or how they view the world. Because there's lots of things out there that you just change your mind when you start thinking about it. Yeah, I'm kind of old fashioned, so I still read books. That's brilliant. That's beautiful. Thank you. And um Helena? No, I can also echo that because if you kind of like looking for something and an attentive person.
01:01:51
Speaker
and it can be a historic book or it can be a more creative one. You will source from everywhere a little bit of inspiration and then repurpose it for yourself. So sometimes it's good if it's outside of exactly what you're doing. One thing that I actually love for that is going back to all of my universities and visit the current alumni there, are the current students there and see what they are up to and what they are thinking about. and Because every year it's quite interesting how it changed this and and the topic from how they approach it, et cetera. And I was maybe refreshed out of those days. Lovely. Wow. That wasn't what I was expecting, but I was so much better than what I was expecting. ah Thank you so much, Jim, Brooke and Elena. It's been an absolutely fascinating conversation.
01:02:40
Speaker
this is a conversation i wish i'd listened to five years ago you know when i was in the midst of a startup it was so powerfully packed with insights that you don't really usually get from books and accelerator programs it's real really from your heart so thank you for sharing so openly and honestly about your experience as well i think that's really valuable for startups and and listeners i'll put um links to the some of the resources and xx-oratortas and everything that you mentioned in the show notes as well. So that wraps it up for us today. Thank you again for your time. Deeply appreciate all the lessons that you've shared. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
01:03:19
Speaker
I absolutely enjoyed that discussion because each of the panelists brought such fascinating perspective and experiences to the table. I love that they combined knowledge and experiences from such different disciplines throughout their career and have come to a point where they sort of weave together these threads to have a very unique point of view, really inspiring. Before we close, I thought I'd just quickly sum up a few of the ah discussion points that we had today in this episode. Firstly, we talked about the importance of interdisciplinary collaboration and driving innovation. Whether it's bringing together different technical disciplines or merging science and fashion, diverse perspectives can lead to groundbreaking solutions and foster creative problem solving, as you saw with all our panellists today.
01:04:09
Speaker
Secondly, the critical role of understanding your market and customers. As our speakers highlighted, it's not just about creating a great product, it's about knowing who your audience is, what they need, and how to reach them effectively. Building those strong relationships and leveraging networks can make a significant difference. We can get so caught up in building the product and the business, I guess, but we forget that it's about the people. And also remember to be humble about what you don't know and bring the right people into your team to be successful. Thirdly, the need for maintaining healthy work-life balance.
01:04:47
Speaker
While the startup journey is demanding and often consumes much of our time and energy, we tend to feel that we're being effective by pouring every minute of our waking hour into our startups. But as the panelists share, it's vital to make time for yourself, to make time for your friends and family, and also your passions. This balance not only prevents burnout, but also fuels creativity and ensures that you survive the marathon. Running a business is a marathon and you need to pace yourself out. And lastly, I want to end with what Jim said. It's not all about you. You might be the founder or CEO of the company, but the company is about the people in it and you have to look after them and make it worthwhile for them.
01:05:34
Speaker
Check out the show notes for links to various resources that were mentioned here and links to connecting with the panelists as well and their companies. Please do share this episode link with a friend or a colleague who might find this useful. If you have a minute to fill out the feedback form, I would really appreciate it. The link is in the show note below. This would really help me to bring you episodes that are truly valuable for you. And thank you again to our amazing guests and to all our listeners for tuning in. We hope you found this episode as insightful and motivating as I did. Until next time, this is your host, Millie Therigan.